JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Confederate Kahanist on March 21, 2010, 02:10:34 PM
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http://action.afa.net/Blogs/BlogPost.aspx?id=2147492738
The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) is not a part of the vast, right-wing conspiracy, religious or otherwise. It is tasked with disease control and prevention, and reports the stubborn facts about an array of health problems.
A data analysis released today by the CDC finds that homosexuals have an HIV infection rate that is more than 44 times higher than that of sexually normal men.
Forty-four times the rate of infection - for a deadly virus that kills its hosts.
Further, the rate of syphilis infection among men who have sex with men (MSM) is an astonishing 46 times higher than that among sexually normal men.
Says Kevin Fenton, M.D., of the CDC, "[T]his analysis shows just how stark the health disparities are between this and other populations."
The FDA, which again is not the research arm of the American Family Association or the Family Research Council, says that the prevalence of HIV infections among MSM is 60 times higher than in the general populace. It is for that reason that a man who has had sex with another man even one time since 1977 is not allowed to donate blood.
Don't miss this. For a man to have sex with another man poses so much danger to the nation's health that if a man has had sex even one, single, solitary time with another man in the last 33 years, he cannot be allowed to give blood. The risk of imparting a lethal infection through a tainted blood supply is simply too high.
The FDA reports that the second highest risk group for HIV/AIDS is found among intravenous drug abusers. Bottom line: homosexual behavior is even more dangerous than injection drug use. Neither should be accepted, promoted, honored, endorsed, sanctioned or given special protections in law.
The FDA also reports that since the AIDS epidemic began in 1977, an astonishing 91% of all afflicted males contracted it through having sex with man or through drug injection. "Heterosexual AIDS" is a myth.
If there was ever a sexual behavior that deserved to be militantly opposed, in law as well as in public policy, homosexuality is it. It is lethal, it is fatal, and it is the height of callous indifference to tell these men that not only is their behavior okay, we will punish anyone who dares to criticize it.
There is simply no genuine compassion in the hearts of those who would celebrate a lifestyle that consigns its practitioners to death.
Pro-family groups are the ones who are accused of lacking compassion. But note this: we are not calling for homosexuals to be put to death. We're calling for them to get help, and simply saying that homosexual behavior should not be legalized or normalized in any way. It's the same stance we take toward IV drug abuse, and for exactly the same reasons.
Homosexual activists, on the other hand, are handing out death sentences like candy by celebrating behavior that kills. Where is the compassion in that? Pro-family groups are promoting life while homosexualist groups are promoting death.
Zero compassion is being shown by those who cheer as homosexuals march off into the night to sign their own death warrants. The truest compassion is being demonstrated by those who stand athwart history and yell, "Stop!"
The prevalence of HIV/AIDS in the homosexual community is so striking that even homosexual activists are getting the picture and once again claiming this disease as their own. Matt Foreman of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force said exactly that in 2008: "Folks, with 70 percent of the people in this country living with HIV being gay or bi, we cannot deny that HIV is a gay disease."
He added that homosexuals "have to own that and face up to that." Well, they're not the only ones who have to face up to that. Our entire culture does, including the military. The military is on track to normalize behavior that decimates those who engage in it. The potential impact on military readiness is clear.
The health care costs to infected soldiers will represent an enormous drain on taxpayer resources. Further, soldiers in combat situations must be able to donate blood to save the life of an injured comrade. This means that homosexual soldiers are non-deployable. No homosexual can be sent into combat because his donated blood could kill his fellow solider rather than save him.
It's insanity for our culture - including the military - to normalize such self- and other-destructive behavior. I daresay even the folks at the CDC and the FDA, if they allowed themselves a moment of honesty, would agree.
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Very good post CK. Also you might also like to mention that if you live in Africa and you are a male who has Aids. Do not have sex with a virgin girl hoping it will cure you. (IT WON'T)
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READ the real report from the CDC, not this spin doctor's biased one
http://www.cdc.gov/NCHHSTP/newsroom/docs/FastFacts-MSM-FINAL508COMP.pdf
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This article sucks because it uses data to make wrong and over-reactive conclusions.
Don't miss this. For a man to have sex with another man poses so much danger to the nation's health that if a man has had sex even one, single, solitary time with another man in the last 33 years, he cannot be allowed to give blood. The risk of imparting a lethal infection through a tainted blood supply is simply too high.
This is obviously BS, if a man had homo-sex 33 (or 10) years ago and he is still not sick with AIDS or whatever STD he is statically clean.
The FDA also reports that since the AIDS epidemic began in 1977, an astonishing 91% of all afflicted males contracted it through having sex with man or through drug injection. "Heterosexual AIDS" is a myth.
Tell that to the females in Africa, I am sure they will feel safe now. Seriously this sort of statement is ridiculous and even dangerous because some strait folks might feel safe enough to have unprotected intercourses. The main reason why homosexuals have such higher statistics of infections is their "lifestyle" of having multiple sexual partners and being careless about protection. In Africa strait people have similar habits and surely enough they have extremely high percentage of infection cases in men and women.
Finally the argument against homosexuals serving in the army is again paranoid and logically flawed. One can make a case that people with HIV shouldn't be admitted to the army. What if a homosexual soldier is not sexually active ? what if he took blood test before he went into the combat zone ? There are all sorts of procedures to minimize the danger of infecting fellow soldiers through blood transfusions.
If the writer of this article is against admitting homosexuals to the army he should use a different type of reasoning, based on values and moral, rather than statistics of HIV.
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Back in the day, when something was sexually perverse it was called DIRTY, that wasn't a metaphor, they meant it, because it is true, it is DIRTY, and filth is where you get diseases from. These things are obvious to sane rational people.
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Very good post CK. Also you might also like to mention that if you live in Africa and you are a male who has Aids. Do not have sex with a virgin girl hoping it will cure you. (IT WON'T)
I live in Africa and I am a male with aids(Joking) :::D
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Very good post CK. Also you might also like to mention that if you live in Africa and you are a male who has Aids. Do not have sex with a virgin girl hoping it will cure you. (IT WON'T)
Yes, it is extremely important for all AIDS-infested males in Africa who are literate and browse the JTF forum to read and heed this.
I wish we had a way to thumbs up posts Dan. That just made me laugh so much :)
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Very good post CK. Also you might also like to mention that if you live in Africa and you are a male who has Aids. Do not have sex with a virgin girl hoping it will cure you. (IT WON'T)
Yes, it is extremely important for all AIDS-infested males in Africa who are literate and browse the JTF forum to read and heed this.
I wish we had a way to thumbs up posts Dan. That just made me laugh so much :)
I would thumbs up that to.
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On the average, homosexuals have a much more promiscuous lifestyle. At least, it used to be like this. I heard stories about gay clubs that were basically orgy-houses. Of course, many heterosexual people are also promiscuous. But we are talking about statistical averages. There must be some deep psychic reasons as to a homosexual's need to change partners and inability to settle with one partner. But, anyway, I am not homophobic. I would defend them from murderous muslims. What I am saying though is that it is logical that a more promiscuous population would be more likely to carry sexually-transmitted diseases.
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בס''ד
It is a fact that a very high percentage of homosexuals are infected with the HIV virus that causes AIDS. And homosexuals are also infected with many other diseases way out of proportion to their numbers in the population.
Anal sex spreads AIDS and most homosexual males engage in anal sex. Oral sex with an infected partner spreads many other serious diseases. The homosexual "life style" puts people at a very high risk for life-threatening diseases.
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Dear Chaim,
The facts do not support what you are saying regarding gay men and anal sex. While many gay men do have anal sex, many do not. While many heterosexuals do not have anal sex, a great number do. Please see the following article with citations for the cold facts regarding this issue. Gay men do have a higher proportion of oral gonorrhea because gay men in general have more oral sex with people whose sexual histories are not well known to them.
Prevalence
A 2005 survey of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found a rising incidence of anal relations in the American heterosexual population. The survey showed that 40% of men and 35% of women between 25 and 44 had engaged in heterosexual anal sex; in 1992 a similar survey found that only 26% of men 18 to 59 and 20% of women 18 to 59 had.[25] By way of comparison, seven times as many women as gay men engage in anal intercourse, a figure reflecting the greater overall heterosexual population.[26] Another survey in 2008 focused on a much younger demographic of teens and young adults aged 15–21. It found that 16% of 1350 surveyed had had anal sex in the previous 3 months, with condoms being used 29% of the time.[27] However, given the subject matter, the survey hypothesized the prevalence was probably underestimated.
Figures for prevalence can vary amongst different demographics, regions, and nationalities. A 2001 French survey of five hundred female respondents concluded that a total of 29% had practiced anal sex, though only one third of these claimed to have enjoyed the experience.[28] In contrast, in a 1999 South Korean survey of 586 women, only 3.5% of respondents reported having had anal sex.[29]
Figures for the prevalence of sexual behavior can also fluctuate over time. Edward O. Laumann's 1992 survey, reported in The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States found that about 20% of heterosexuals have engaged in anal sex. Sex researcher Alfred Kinsey, working in the 1940s, had found that number to be closer to 40% at the time. More recently, a researcher from the University of British Columbia in 2005 put the number of heterosexuals who have practiced anal sex at between 30% and 50%.[30]
According to Columbia University's health website, Go Ask Alice!: "Studies indicate that about 25 percent of heterosexual couples have had anal sex at least once, and 10 percent regularly have anal penetration."[31]
[edit] Homosexual
19th-century erotic interpretation of Hadrian and Antinous, by Paul AvrilHistorically, anal sex has been popularly associated with male homosexuality and men who have sex with men (MSM). However, many do not engage in anal sex, and some groups such as frot advocacy groups actively denounce anal sex as degrading toward the receptive partner and an unnecessary health risk.[32] It is common for gay men to experience pain when being penetrated, and around one in ten find it too painful to continue.[33] Various studies indicate that between one tenth and one quarter of all males always experience pain during receptive anal sex, while another study of gay and bisexual men found that 61% considered pain during receptive anal sex as their most frequent lifetime sexual difficulty.[34] The experience of pain among insertive partners was rarer, with only three percent reporting it.[35]
Among MSM who do have anal sex, the insertive partner is referred to as the top or active partner. The man being penetrated is referred to as the bottom or passive partner. Preference for either is referred to as Versatile.[citation needed]
[edit] Prevalence
According to Dr. John Dean and Dr. David Delvin, "in absolute numbers, it is hypothesized that more heterosexual couples have anal sex than homosexual couples".[36]
The prevalence of anal sex among homosexual couples in the West has varied over time. Magnus Hirschfeld, in his 1914 magnum opus, The Homosexuality of Men and Women reports the rate of anal sex among homosexual men surveyed to be 8%, the least favored of all the practices documented.[37]
By the 1950s in the United Kingdom, it was thought that about fifteen percent of male homosexuals practiced the method.[38] The Gay Urban Men's Study (P.I. Stall, UCSF) and the Young Men's Study (YMS, PI Osmond/Catania, UCSF), indicate that 50% of men surveyed engage in anal sex. The Laumann study claims that 80% of gay men practice it, while the remaining 20% never engage in it at all.
A survey conducted from 1994 to 1997 in San Francisco by the Stop AIDS Project indicated that over the course of the study, among men who have sex with men, the proportion engaging in anal sex increased from 57.6% to 61.2%.[39]
On a personal note, I have known many gay men who have never had anal sex at all. Why? The risk of disease, the fact that someone could lie to you and give you a chronic illness that you will never be able to get rid of
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I would strongly suggest that anyone wanting accurate data on any aspect of sexually transmitted diseases research it thorugh the CDC.
http://www.cdc.gov/STD
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Regardless, it is a sickness which needs to be dealt with. Gay men are a danger to other men... I would never shower in the same showers as any gay men for fear of germs. I know some will argue with me, but too bad... I will not take a chance dealing with people with such perversions.
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Regardless, it is a sickness which needs to be dealt with. Gay men are a danger to other men... I would never shower in the same showers as any gay men for fear of germs. I know some will argue with me, but too bad... I will not take a chance dealing with people with such perversions.
You are more obsessed with homosexuality than homosexuals. I have news for you, I doubt anyone is looking at you in the shower. And for G-d's sake, go into a stall with a private curtain like most adults. The only thing you can catch in a shower is athlete's foot. Grow up
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Regardless, it is a sickness which needs to be dealt with. Gay men are a danger to other men... I would never shower in the same showers as any gay men for fear of germs. I know some will argue with me, but too bad... I will not take a chance dealing with people with such perversions.
You are more obsessed with homosexuality than homosexuals. I have news for you, I doubt anyone is looking at you in the shower. And for G-d's sake, go into a stall with a private curtain like most adults. The only thing you can catch in a shower is athlete's foot. Grow up
Your telling me to grow up.... Please.. The issue is that I dont think that unrepentant homosexuals should be in the same system as I am. I am old enough to have grown up long before this permissive and sick attitude concerning bending over for the gay agenda began. When I went to school I didn't know a single gay person... I went to an all boys school and if there were gay boys they kept it in the closet and they would have been ridiculed if they let others know.
The issue is not looking at me in the showers... The issue is that gays bring germs and disease where they go. Do you wonder why they close down the gay baths? It is a breeding ground for death and disease. AIDS is not the only sickness which the homosexuals bring.
Im sorry JTFEnthusiast but your lifestyle is against the Torah and against common sense. I hope you do not persist in this perversion...
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Regardless, it is a sickness which needs to be dealt with. Gay men are a danger to other men... I would never shower in the same showers as any gay men for fear of germs. I know some will argue with me, but too bad... I will not take a chance dealing with people with such perversions.
You are more obsessed with homosexuality than homosexuals. I have news for you, I doubt anyone is looking at you in the shower. And for G-d's sake, go into a stall with a private curtain like most adults. The only thing you can catch in a shower is athlete's foot. Grow up
Your telling me to grow up.... Please.. The issue is that I dont think that unrepentant homosexuals should be in the same system as I am. I am old enough to have grown up long before this permissive and sick attitude concerning bending over for the gay agenda began. When I went to school I didn't know a single gay person... I went to an all boys school and if there were gay boys they kept it in the closet and they would have been ridiculed if they let others know.
The issue is not looking at me in the showers... The issue is that gays bring germs and disease where they go. Do you wonder why they close down the gay baths? It is a breeding ground for death and disease. AIDS is not the only sickness which the homosexuals bring.
Im sorry JTFEnthusiast but your lifestyle is against the Torah and against common sense. I hope you do not persist in this perversion...
As i have told you many times, I do not act on my homosexual feelings, so you are not insulting me in the way you imagine. I'm actually not insulted by you at all. You're extremely ignorant in this regard, Muman, and recalcitrant in your desire to remain ignorant. That's a sin.
Your shower scenario is fiction. Most men when they take showers in public places actively go out of their way to avoid even the semblance of looking in the direction of another man. I certainly do. No one sane wants to activate the neurotic homosexual panic of a would be gay basher. As a physician, your statement about 'homosexuals bringing germs wherever they go" is just about the most ignorant thing I have heard on this forum. In order to get any kind of STD, you need to be in close intimate contact, you don't get STDs by shaking someone's hand or sitting close to them. I can't believe someone who is so intelligent in other areas is so blinded by his phobia--and yes, Muman, you are phobic. Your specific fears expressed here are irrational. When I was gay, no one ever got a disease from me, never mind sitting next to me.
I can't believe that I am even responding to this silliness.
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Muman, nobody wants to bath with germs. I don't even want to bath with my own germs. But come on, the issue isn't germs. I don't think you would speak like that on old people, or people who take immune suppressive medicine, or people who just got back from the rain-forest, or... Ethiopians.
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It is better to be safe than sorry. And JTFEnthusiast you are wrong if you think I am trying to insult you. I am trying to get you to see that you are making errors in your life, and you have the ability to make life better. You can act on what I am telling you, or you can ignore it and continue in your ways. Either way it really makes no difference to me. But if you can wrestle control away from your ego and your desires then you will have done a good job, a mitzvah, and you will have conquered the yetzer hara {evil inclination}.
I will stay away from the places which gays hang out and I will avoid the plagues which they bring. I am humored that you you the term Phobic since I was going to write a blog entry on this subject. What does it mean when they call straight people Homophobic? Is there a clinical term for someone who fears gay people? I doubt it. I think it is a made up word used by the gay agenda in order to stigmatize those who don't condone the sickness which they are trying to sell. I know I have no fear of a person who is gay... I live in the San Francisco bay area and the capital of homosexual activity {20 minutes from my home}. I surely do not fear them. I will not back down in saying that according to my beliefs, as stated in the Torah and many Jewish sages through the generations, that homosexual sex is an abomination and should not be condoned in any way.
That being said I have no problem with people who may struggle with Same sex attraction disorders. It has been suggested to me that the homeless man who I help support may himself be gay. He knows better than to let me know anything about his attractions... It is absolutely unfair to make baseless assumptions about me without knowing my background. I know that I have no fear of homosexual men but I do have fear that they are just asking for diseases and death. It is better that I not be around when the divine retribution comes...
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/aug/09082609.html
ATLANTA, Georgia, August 24, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - An official with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) announced the CDC's estimate Monday that in the United States AIDS is fifty times more prevalent among men who have sex with men ('MSM') than the rest of the population. Dr. Amy Lansky revealed this statistic during a plenary session at the 2009 HIV Prevention Conference in Atlanta.
The CDC had already revealed last year that approximately 53% of the estimated 56,300 new HIV cases in 2006 were in homosexual men, with the African American population being particularly affected.
The new statistics, however, estimate the prevalence of HIV/AIDS relative to the homosexual population, which allows comparisons to other groups in the wider population. Because of the difficulty of determining the homosexual population, the CDC had to estimate. Based on a variety of national surveys, they based their statistics on the median estimate that homosexual men constitute 4 percent of the overall male population, reports RH Reality Check.
According to Dr. Lansky, then, based on the 4 percent figure, the CDC estimates that in 2007 there were 692.2 new HIV cases per 100,000 homosexual men - or fifty times more cases than the rest of the population.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/oct/06100404.html
California Homosexual Organization Admits HIV/AIDS is "Gay Disease"
By Gudrun Schultz
LOS ANGELES, California, October 4, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) – The Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center has abandoned a long-held homosexual activist contention by declaring on billboards posted throughout Southern California that HIV/AIDS is a “gay disease.”
According to a report by the Los Angeles Times, the Center is trying to address rapidly increasing HIV infection rates among the homosexual population by rallying the gay community to increasing vigilance against exposure to the disease. Activists for the homosexual lifestyle have, until this current development, strongly, and sometimes vehemently refused to admit that the disease is predominantly generated among homosexual men.
The ad campaign, which is also running in magazines, is in part a response to the findings of public health officials, who have noted that three out of four cases of HIV infections are found in men who engage in homosexual activity, the United Press International reported.
In 2005 US health officials reported an alarming eight percent increase in HIV infection rates in one year alone among homosexual and bisexual men. The Center for Disease Control also warned that a survey of 15-29 year old men who engaged in homosexual activity “reported that the proportion of unrecognized HIV infection was as high as 77 %.”
A report by the Public Health Agency of Canada, released in August 2006, revealed a sharp increase in HIV/AIDS infections, with 51 percent of infections found in men engaging in homosexual activity.
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Dear Chaim,
The facts do not support what you are saying regarding gay men and anal sex. While many gay men do have anal sex, many do not. While many heterosexuals do not have anal sex, a great number do. Please see the following article with citations for the cold facts regarding this issue. Gay men do have a higher proportion of oral gonorrhea because gay men in general have more oral sex with people whose sexual histories are not well known to them.
Prevalence
A 2005 survey of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found a rising incidence of anal relations in the American heterosexual population. The survey showed that 40% of men and 35% of women between 25 and 44 had engaged in heterosexual anal sex; in 1992 a similar survey found that only 26% of men 18 to 59 and 20% of women 18 to 59 had.[25] By way of comparison, seven times as many women as gay men engage in anal intercourse, a figure reflecting the greater overall heterosexual population.[26] Another survey in 2008 focused on a much younger demographic of teens and young adults aged 15–21. It found that 16% of 1350 surveyed had had anal sex in the previous 3 months, with condoms being used 29% of the time.[27] However, given the subject matter, the survey hypothesized the prevalence was probably underestimated.
Figures for prevalence can vary amongst different demographics, regions, and nationalities. A 2001 French survey of five hundred female respondents concluded that a total of 29% had practiced anal sex, though only one third of these claimed to have enjoyed the experience.[28] In contrast, in a 1999 South Korean survey of 586 women, only 3.5% of respondents reported having had anal sex.[29]
Figures for the prevalence of sexual behavior can also fluctuate over time. Edward O. Laumann's 1992 survey, reported in The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States found that about 20% of heterosexuals have engaged in anal sex. Sex researcher Alfred Kinsey, working in the 1940s, had found that number to be closer to 40% at the time. More recently, a researcher from the University of British Columbia in 2005 put the number of heterosexuals who have practiced anal sex at between 30% and 50%.[30]
According to Columbia University's health website, Go Ask Alice!: "Studies indicate that about 25 percent of heterosexual couples have had anal sex at least once, and 10 percent regularly have anal penetration."[31]
[edit] Homosexual
19th-century erotic interpretation of Hadrian and Antinous, by Paul AvrilHistorically, anal sex has been popularly associated with male homosexuality and men who have sex with men (MSM). However, many do not engage in anal sex, and some groups such as frot advocacy groups actively denounce anal sex as degrading toward the receptive partner and an unnecessary health risk.[32] It is common for gay men to experience pain when being penetrated, and around one in ten find it too painful to continue.[33] Various studies indicate that between one tenth and one quarter of all males always experience pain during receptive anal sex, while another study of gay and bisexual men found that 61% considered pain during receptive anal sex as their most frequent lifetime sexual difficulty.[34] The experience of pain among insertive partners was rarer, with only three percent reporting it.[35]
Among MSM who do have anal sex, the insertive partner is referred to as the top or active partner. The man being penetrated is referred to as the bottom or passive partner. Preference for either is referred to as Versatile.[citation needed]
[edit] Prevalence
According to Dr. John Dean and Dr. David Delvin, "in absolute numbers, it is hypothesized that more heterosexual couples have anal sex than homosexual couples".[36]
The prevalence of anal sex among homosexual couples in the West has varied over time. Magnus Hirschfeld, in his 1914 magnum opus, The Homosexuality of Men and Women reports the rate of anal sex among homosexual men surveyed to be 8%, the least favored of all the practices documented.[37]
By the 1950s in the United Kingdom, it was thought that about fifteen percent of male homosexuals practiced the method.[38] The Gay Urban Men's Study (P.I. Stall, UCSF) and the Young Men's Study (YMS, PI Osmond/Catania, UCSF), indicate that 50% of men surveyed engage in anal sex. The Laumann study claims that 80% of gay men practice it, while the remaining 20% never engage in it at all.
A survey conducted from 1994 to 1997 in San Francisco by the Stop AIDS Project indicated that over the course of the study, among men who have sex with men, the proportion engaging in anal sex increased from 57.6% to 61.2%.[39]
On a personal note, I have known many gay men who have never had anal sex at all. Why? The risk of disease, the fact that someone could lie to you and give you a chronic illness that you will never be able to get rid of
בס''ד
The Gay Urban Men's Study (P.I. Stall, UCSF) and the Young Men's Study (YMS, PI Osmond/Catania, UCSF), indicate that 50% of men surveyed engage in anal sex. The Laumann study claims that 80% of gay men practice it, while the remaining 20% never engage in it at all.
A survey conducted from 1994 to 1997 in San Francisco by the Stop AIDS Project indicated that over the course of the study, among men who have sex with men, the proportion engaging in anal sex increased from 57.6% to 61.2%.[39]
The studies that you yourself cite prove that what I am saying is accurate. Recent studies consistently show that a majority of male homosexuals engage in anal sex despite the extreme danger and despite the fact that anal sex is very unsanitary (No matter how much you try to clean the anal area, there is always a large residue of fecal matter that the naked eye cannot see.)
The three studies you cite found that from 50% to 80% of homosexuals engage in anal sex. And studies show that the number of homosexuals engaged in this practice is increasing.
As far as heterosexuals who engage in anal sex, they are also crazy. But the numbers are much lower among heterosexuals, and they do not have as many partners.
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I have to run to work, but the article above states that "More recently, a researcher from the University of British Columbia in 2005 put the number of heterosexuals who have practiced anal sex at between 30% and 50%.[30]" With that said, it seems to me that this issue isn't a specifically homosexual one since up to 50 percent of heterosexual people have anal sex, though you're correct in that the percentage of homosexuals who engage in anal sex is higher according to that one study. Anyway, I am not a fan of this subject personally, thinking about it or otherwise.
To Muman, I stand by my comments about your 'phobia' NOT all people who dislike gays are so called homophobic, but your posts about catching germs in the way you described is phobic, unscientific and just paranoid. You dont catch STDS by sitting next to someone, shaking their hand, etc. have to run.
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Bottom line, chaim and muman are right and JTFenthusiast2 is way off.
It is immoral to have homosexual. And it is immoral to have heterosexual before and outside of marriage. To do so can harm the mind, soul, and lead to a much HIGHER risk of ruining one's life with an embarrassing STD. For someone to get away with no STD when they do this is lucky.
Watering down the results of AIDS and HIV to go against "myths" of immoral behavior to almost justify that it could be ok if someone gay gives in to temptation especially by a doctor, is arrogant and a special type of Chillul Hshem coming from a Jewish one on this forum. Its like saying "you're all wrong because it really isn't that bad (and therefore, if I mess up once or if anyone here messes up once they'll be fine most likely)". I say, "Azehoo she LO! (NOT!!!!!!!!!!!)"
With that being said, I am no saint and extremely lucky that nothing has happened to me. Now I am married and would encourage other unmarried people who have a sexual itch to date for marriage and find their own right match and live a normal righteous life.
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I think the biggest threat from showers is usually athlete's foot, but is it possible that flesh eating bacteria could also be there?
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Homosexuality is no sickness - it is sin.
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I have to run to work, but the article above states that "More recently, a researcher from the University of British Columbia in 2005 put the number of heterosexuals who have practiced anal sex at between 30% and 50%.[30]" With that said, it seems to me that this issue isn't a specifically homosexual one since up to 50 percent of heterosexual people have anal sex, though you're correct in that the percentage of homosexuals who engage in anal sex is higher according to that one study. Anyway, I am not a fan of this subject personally, thinking about it or otherwise.
To Muman, I stand by my comments about your 'phobia' NOT all people who dislike gays are so called homophobic, but your posts about catching germs in the way you described is phobic, unscientific and just paranoid. You dont catch STDS by sitting next to someone, shaking their hand, etc. have to run.
JTFEnthusiast,
You are making a straw man argument here. I never said I thought you could catch these things by sitting next to, or shaking hands with gays... I dont know where you got this from. I simply said that I would not want to be in a shower with people who may be carrying dangerous plagues. I am sure that you know that for many years that gays pretended that aids was not real. Science also learns things over time and there are things we don't know at this time about these germs. It is best to stay far, far away from sickness like this.
If you expect me to say a good word about the gay lifestyle you will not hear me say it. My experience with those who live like that is very bad and I encourage all who want to be righteous in the eye of the G-d of Israel to steer clear of it.
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In the end, I'm sure JTFEnthusiast2 will kill his son if he was practicing animal sex like the sub-human faggots do.
Homosexuality is just like Feminism - suicide for societies.
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I think the biggest threat from showers is usually athlete's foot, but is it possible that flesh eating bacteria could also be there?
I think one might catch MRSA and other germs and fungi from the gym apparatus (apparata ? ti ? ). The shower is a little safer I imagine, because there is constant draining of water and also the feet have a thick protective layer of skin.
But in any case there are more dangerous places and objects that can get one sick: door knobs, keyboards, faucet handles, uncooked meat and fish, hot tubs, ...
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I think the biggest threat from showers is usually athlete's foot, but is it possible that flesh eating bacteria could also be there?
I think one might catch MRSA and other germs and fungi from the gym apparatus (apparata ? ti ? ). The shower is a little safer I imagine, because there is constant draining of water and also the feet have a thick protective layer of skin.
But in any case there are more dangerous places and objects that can get one sick: door knobs, keyboards, faucet handles, uncooked meat and fish, hot tubs, ...
I was just thinking of it because I thought I remembered an article about MRSA being a problem among gay men a while back and they were spreading it through skin-to-skin contact. You're probably right that the shower might not be a spot where it's likely to get it. However I have heard of people who are wade fishing getting it from cutting themselves in the water.
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Gays are dangers!
Many high ranking Nazis were gays and were one of the most cruelest fascists during the Nazi-area. They were extremely merciless towards their victims. An immoral and perverse life style like a gay life style, can lead to extreme cruelness as represented by the Nazis.
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I don't think most gays would turn out like Nazis, but I think homosexuality was definitely an indication of their general moral depravity.
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Gays are dangers!
Many high ranking Nazis were gays and were one of the most cruelest fascists during the Nazi-area. They were extremely merciless towards their victims. An immoral and perverse life style like a gay life style, can lead to extreme cruelness as represented by the Nazis.
Yes, this is true. Homosexuality was and is an integral component of Naziism. Of cause the Nazis denie this, but this doesn't change the facts.
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With all due respect Dr. Dan, you are a dentist. More importantly, your reiteration of my points are totally wrong. This seems to be an all too common theme on this forum when someone states anything that is against the grain of some JTfers who claim to be 'experts' on a variety of things. I would encourage you to read what I wrote dentist Dan before having the audacity to falsely condemn me. Furthermore, I don't have a quiver of a shred of a doubt that there are heterosexual people on this forum who are much graver sinners than I have ever been. For somethings I doubt myself, looking at myself critically, but for this, I don't even blink.
You write: "It is immoral to have homosexual (sic). And it is immoral to have heterosexual (sic)before and outside of marriage. To do so can harm the mind, soul, and lead to a much HIGHER risk of ruining one's life with an embarrassing STD. For someone to get away with no STD when they do this is lucky." This has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said. I mean your free to opine on whatever you wish, but this has nothing to do with anything I said.
You then write, "Bottom line, chaim and muman are right and JTFenthusiast2 is way off." With all due respect, I'm a physician and you're a dentist, you have absolutely no qualifications to make such a statement--medically. If you want to make medical statements with true authority or correct those of physicians, go to medical school. Until then, you're the person who is behaving with arrogance and without a inch of ground to stand on. That you mis read my post at every single point says a great deal about your not reading very well and acting on your emotions and NOT the facts.
You state "Watering down the results of AIDS and HIV to go against "myths" of immoral behavior to almost justify that it could be ok if someone gay gives in to temptation especially by a doctor, is arrogant and a special type of Chillul Hshem coming from a Jewish one on this forum. Its like saying "you're all wrong because it really isn't that bad (and therefore, if I mess up once or if anyone here messes up once they'll be fine most likely)". I say, "Azehoo she LO! (NOT!!!!!!!!!!!)"
Dan, are you on drugs??? I never said any of that. I accepted Chaim's accurate reading of the studies when he presented his understanding of what was written. No where do I come close to even suggesting that anal sex is a good thing. I am not an advocate of it and said so. Your reiteration of me saying that 'it isn't all that bad' is a product of your abysmal reading comprehension. I don't feel that way at all. What I do say is that hypocritical moralists like yourself shouldn't expect to be revered by people who see you for your arrogance, tendency towards propaganda, and hypocrisy
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Gays are dangers!
Many high ranking Nazis were gays and were one of the most cruelest fascists during the Nazi-area. They were extremely merciless towards their victims. An immoral and perverse life style like a gay life style, can lead to extreme cruelness as represented by the Nazis.
Interesting that while many nazis were homosexuals, the majority were heterosexuals. Should we analyze why this was the case. I prefer frank discussion about these issues. The problem with some of the people onthis forum is that there is a demand for hegemony of thought. When someone presents a contrary point of few, people pounce on the person, completely distorting what was in fact said. I mean Amon Goeth was a heterosexual sadist, no one is discoursing on his heterosexual sadism as pathology. However the minute someone is a homosexual that becomes the root of everything else that is wrong with the person. When a heterosexual behaves similarly, it's a 'fluke'
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I think the biggest threat from showers is usually athlete's foot, but is it possible that flesh eating bacteria could also be there?
I think one might catch MRSA and other germs and fungi from the gym apparatus (apparata ? ti ? ). The shower is a little safer I imagine, because there is constant draining of water and also the feet have a thick protective layer of skin.
But in any case there are more dangerous places and objects that can get one sick: door knobs, keyboards, faucet handles, uncooked meat and fish, hot tubs, ...
I was just thinking of it because I thought I remembered an article about MRSA being a problem among gay men a while back and they were spreading it through skin-to-skin contact. You're probably right that the shower might not be a spot where it's likely to get it. However I have heard of people who are wade fishing getting it from cutting themselves in the water.
Rubystars, many people particularly health care workers are colonized with MRSa, particularly in their nares. What determines whether or not someone develops a fulminant case of MRSA is multifactorial. I am happy to exaplin this further if you are interested.
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Homosexuality is no sickness - it is sin.
So is not looking at your own deviant behavior (past or present) while condeming other people as if you are better than they
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Muman wrote:
"JTFEnthusiast,
You are making a straw man argument here. I never said I thought you could catch these things by sitting next to, or shaking hands with gays... I dont know where you got this from. I simply said that I would not want to be in a shower with people who may be carrying dangerous plagues. I am sure that you know that for many years that gays pretended that aids was not real. Science also learns things over time and there are things we don't know at this time about these germs. It is best to stay far, far away from sickness like this.
If you expect me to say a good word about the gay lifestyle you will not hear me say it. My experience with those who live like that is very bad and I encourage all who want to be righteous in the eye of the G-d of Israel to steer clear of it."
Once again Muman, you demonstrate that when it comes to homosexuality, you lose your ability to comprehend what was written. I am sorry that you are so ignorant, mostly for other people and less for you at this point. No one asked you to say a "good word about the gay lifestyle." I've left the lifestyle, so clearly I wouldn't be demanding you to say anything in praise of it. Your comments about showering next to gay people and your fear of catching something by just being in the shower with them is insane. You want to defame the Torah by bringing it into your ignorance, that's on your soul.
Trying to get you to accept basic logic re: bacteriology/virology an 8th grader could appreciate is a poor use of my time
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In the end, I'm sure JTFEnthusiast2 will kill his son if he was practicing animal sex like the sub-human faggots do.
Homosexuality is just like Feminism - suicide for societies.
Yehudah, you silly ignorant person who thinks joking about killing one's child is remotely entertaining or funny. If I had a son who was caught having "animal sex" I would realize he needed serious psychiatric help and I would love him and get him that help while making sure he did no harm to others. You on the other hand would probably stone him. Keep telling yourself what a righteous moral individual you are.
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Muman wrote:
"JTFEnthusiast,
You are making a straw man argument here. I never said I thought you could catch these things by sitting next to, or shaking hands with gays... I dont know where you got this from. I simply said that I would not want to be in a shower with people who may be carrying dangerous plagues. I am sure that you know that for many years that gays pretended that aids was not real. Science also learns things over time and there are things we don't know at this time about these germs. It is best to stay far, far away from sickness like this.
If you expect me to say a good word about the gay lifestyle you will not hear me say it. My experience with those who live like that is very bad and I encourage all who want to be righteous in the eye of the G-d of Israel to steer clear of it."
Once again Muman, you demonstrate that when it comes to homosexuality, you lose your ability to apprehend what was written. I am sorry that you are so ignorant, mostly for other people and less for you at this point. No one asked you to say a "good word about the gay lifestyle." I've left the lifestyle, so clearly I wouldn't be demanding you to say anything in praise of it. Your comments about showering next to gay peple and your fear of catching something by just being in the shower with them is insane. You want to defame the Torah by bringing it into your ignorance, that's on your soul.
Trying to get you to accept basic logic re: bacteriology/virology an 8th grader could appreciate is a poor use of my time
Listen my fiend, you are in no position to lecture me on anything...
I am fully aware of what science knows at this time. But I am old enough to know that science is just a tool in mans hands, and we learn new things every day. Just because now we don't know something, doesn't mean that it is not true. I will avoid the danger and steer clear of all those who openly engage in perversion because in the end they will get what is coming to them. Everything in this world works on the principle of Level for Level, or Eye for Eye, Tooth for Tooth, etc.
Maybe you think you can get away with it... But nobody gets away with anything. You think you are so smart and you can determine the risks of your abominable behavior. All sinners think this way and have complete rationalization for their actions {as you do}.
I can care less if you think Im ignorant. I think you are insane and since you persist in pushing your gay agenda I am beginning to get the feeling you don't really belong at JTF. We are a righteous group and people who try to blur the lines of what is acceptable, as you do, should not be welcome here..
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Rubystars, many people particularly health care workers are colonized with MRSa, particularly in their nares. What determines whether or not someone develops a fulminant case of MRSA is multifactorial. I am happy to exaplin this further if you are interested.
I'm remembering my biology classes that nares usually refers to the nostrils. Is that what you mean? I have an image in my head of a chart showing a fetal pig and lines going to the nostrils labeled "nares".
What are the multiple factors that can lead to a serious infection?
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Muman,
You can't read. I have posted tens of times that I do not and have not acted on my homosexual inclinations for sometime, yet you keep repeating that I am. Are you cognitively challenged or what? Are you repeating it because it serves a purpose for you in your argument? if so, that demonstrates what a completely amoral person you are
Furthermore, you are NO ONE to tell me where I do or do not belong. I have many friends on this forum and I am a zionist and a Jew, so screw off with your telling me where I belong. I don't need to kowtow to you to be a part of this forum. I am here, if you don't like it too bad. I have every right to respond to your abject stupidity that you can catch an STD by standing next to someone in a shower. Too bad if you don't like it
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Muman,
You can't read. I have posted tens of times that I do not and have not acted on my homosexual inclinations for sometime, yet you keep repeating that I am. Are you cognitively challenged or what? Are you repeating it because it serves a purpose for you in your argument? if so, that demonstrates what a completely amoral person you are
Furthermore, you are NO ONE to tell me where I do or do not belong. I have many friends on this forum and I am a zionist and a Jew, so screw off with your telling me where I belong. I don't need to kowtow to you to be a part of this forum. I am here, if you don't like it too bad. I have every right to respond to your abject stupidity that you can catch an STD by standing next to someone in a shower. Too bad if you don't like it
It seems to me you are just trying to avoid feeling any remorse for your misdeeds. You will lead others astray when you minimize the damage which you have done. Also you once again say that I said that you can catch STD from the shower. I simply said that it is better, in my mind, to be safe than sorry. We do know that germs have been able to mutate and spread {witness the H1N1 virus which mutated and spread from animals to humans}.
Nothing happens in this world without a reason. This is the bedrock of faith {from a Jewish perspective}. Either you learn from your mistakes or you may die as a result of them.
In my opinion, in this thread, you have been the one to call me 'ignorant' amongst other things. You make this statement simply based on the fact that I don't want to risk my health and my life in order to be around openly active homosexuals.
I sure hope you are telling us the truth...
PS: JTFEnthusiast... You are getting too full of yourself. Ive been here at JTF over 2 1/2 years and have 6400+ posts under my belt... You on the other hand have around 500... I think I have a right to say what is acceptable here at JTF, they even made me a moderator..
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And now the faggots will get even more free health care. I haven't read the 3600 page bill, but would be real surprised if it had a clause forcing faggots to pay their fare share for treatment of stds.
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RubyStars,
Excellent question. MRSA stands for Methicillin resistant Staph aureus. You are 100 percent correct, nares refer to the insides of the nostrils. All over our bodies are different 'flora,' or organisms. When they are in certain proportions, the different organisms are in a kind of balance. Importantly, they are blocked by the largest organ of the immune system, our skin. Staph aureus is a particularly dangerous organism when it penetrates into a person's blood stream. This usually happens when the organism gets past the first layer of a person's immune system defenses through large cuts or through wounds. MRSA is more dangerous because it is resistant to standard extended spectrum penicillins which are very strong drugs. The main drug we use for the treatment of MRSA bacteremia (blood infections) is IV vancomycin. Vancomycin kills MRSA.
Some factors that can cause a person to experience an increased mortality form MRSA are:
1) age
2) immune system status
3) other comorbid illnesses (e.g.: prolonged periods of other physical illnesses, immunosuppression caused by drugs that we use to treat cancer patients, being ventilator dependent, diabetes and therefore impaired circulation
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Muman,
You don't control freedom of speech here. I make my points based on what you say. You don't listen, you don't read and you lie about things that I have never said. I am here because I am a zionist and a Jew! If you're going to make fictitious remarks about catching stds from standing in the same shower room with someone--expect a response. My problem with you is that you have no tolerance for different opinions. But what I find really offensive about your behavior is your outright mendacity, your lying. You mischaracterize everything I say and do so deliberately. In every response to my posts, you throw in lies about what I have allegedly said. The majority of my responses are refuting your propaganda about what I allegedly have said or believe. You are not fooling me for one minute.
You are doing exactly what Goebbels did, you say the same dishonest thing over and over again, in the hopes that it will stick. This is why in every post to you, I spent half the post stating that you are mischaracterizing me. I'm not stupid Muman, and neither are the other people on this forum
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Muman, do you think one can catch gayness by standing too close to an infected person in the showers ?
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Muman,
You don't control freedom of speech here. I make my points based on what you say. You don't listen, you don't read and you lie about things that I have never said. I am here because I am a zionist and a Jew! If you're going to make fictitious remarks about catching stds from standing in the same shower room with someone--expect a response. My problem with you is that you have no tolerance for different opinions. But what I find really offensive about your behavior is your outright mendacity, your lying. You mischaracterize everything I say and do so deliberately. In every response to my posts, you throw in lies about what I have allegedly said. The majority of my responses are refuting your propaganda about what I allegedly have said or believe. You are not fooling me for one minute.
You are doing exactly what Goebbels did, you say the same dishonest thing over and over again, in the hopes that it will stick. This is why in every post to you, I spent half the post stating that you are mischaracterizing me. I'm not stupid Muman, and neither are the other people on this forum
You are really nuts, aren't you... I have never said that taking a shower with gays gives you STDs... Stop saying that is what I am saying...
Here is what I said in my 1st post : http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,44265.0.html
Regardless, it is a sickness which needs to be dealt with. Gay men are a danger to other men... I would never shower in the same showers as any gay men for fear of germs. I know some will argue with me, but too bad... I will not take a chance dealing with people with such perversions.
Did I say that showering with gay men gives a person STD? No I didn't... I said that I would not do it because of fear of germs. I did not say that I would get STDs but because there are germs, and as I said numerous times, those germs are mutating, I would rather not expose myself to those germs.
You say I have no tolerance for other opinions... How odd... I have tolerated much more than most on JTF. I have historically been very open minded and as a result 15 years of my life was spent as a Deadhead hippie {even as I kept my software engineering jobs in the 80s-90s}. I am very forgiving of a persons faults and I am the 1st one to try to help people in need. I help homeless people through my charity and I also provide room in my house to help the poor.
My problem with you is that you started in with me calling me names and making accusations which are false. To call me Goebbels indicates what kind of person you are.
Unless you find it within yourself to apologize to me for your false accusations against me then I will not forgive you. I hope you do not make yourself into an enemy of mine. If you are truly Jewish, possess the Jewish soul, and you seek the truth then odds are that you will get along with me... Otherwise I expect our relationship to be an adversarial one..
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Muman, do you think one can catch gayness by standing too close to an infected person in the showers ?
Zelhar,
Are you being stupid?
A persons sexual attraction is the result of a complex behavioral process. There is no way one can catch 'gayness' from another through a shower. But the issue which I brought up concerns the dirtiness of the homosexual sex act, the related infection of germs which cause a variety of STDs, and the fact that spiritual infections are reflected in physical infections.
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JTFEnthusiast, is it possible that since AIDS is more common among the homosexual population, that they could be more susceptible to carrying MRSA infection because of their weakened immune system, and possibly deposit this bacteria in a shower? This might be a stretch but I've heard of swabs being taken finding it on places like shopping carts and playground equipment.
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Muman,
You state, "But the issue which I brought up concerns the dirtiness of the homosexual sex act, the related infection of germs which cause a variety of STDs, and the fact that spiritual infections are reflected in physical infections" This is exactly the kind of mendacity of which I speak. Our conversation was about showering next to someone, now you are introducing sex acts. This is why you are an untrustworthy person because you argue in a very dishonest way.
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Muman, do you think one can catch gayness by standing too close to an infected person in the showers ?
Zelhar,
Are you being stupid?
A persons sexual attraction is the result of a complex behavioral process. There is no way one can catch 'gayness' from another through a shower. But the issue which I brought up concerns the dirtiness of the homosexual sex act, the related infection of germs which cause a variety of STDs, and the fact that spiritual infections are reflected in physical infections.
Maybe I was being a little silly.
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Sorry Zelhar,
I misused the quoting function. I was trying to delete some of the background quotes so I could type more. My apologies.
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Muman,
You state, "But the issue which I brought up concerns the dirtiness of the homosexual sex act, the related infection of germs which cause a variety of STDs, and the fact that spiritual infections are reflected in physical infections" This is exactly the kind of mendacity of which I speak. Our conversation was about showering next to someone, now you are introducing sex acts. This is why you are an untrustworthy person because you argue in a very dishonest way.
JTFEnthusiast,
You can think what you will about me, it will not make any difference to me... I hope you truly regret your sins so that you never repeat them. If this is so I can care less what you think about me..
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JTFEnthusiast, is it possible that since AIDS is more common among the homosexual population, that they could be more susceptible to carrying MRSA infection because of their weakened immune system, and possibly deposit this bacteria in a shower? This might be a stretch but I've heard of swabs being taken finding it on places like shopping carts and playground equipment.
No Ruby, but I understand why you would think this. In America, AIDS is more common among homosexual men, that's just a fact. Anyone who denies that is being very dishonest.
People who carry MRSA are people who are exposed to it all the time, this is primarily hospital personnel. People on the street may or may not be colonized with MRSA, but MRSA is not spread like the common cold through germs on tables or aerosolization of germs through say sneezing. In order to get MRSA, you need to have open wounds, an abscess, some relatively large portal of entry. These swabs that you have seen on the television come up positive because people wipe their noses and then touch surfaces of objects. Now staph, regularly old staph is a common organism in everyone's noses, but MRSA is not.
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Thanks JTFEnthusiast. That helps me understand it a lot better.
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Muman,
If I were you, I would worry about your own sins. I know I have my foibles and personal failings. People like yourself don't ever look in their own 'backyard' because that is far more difficult and painful. However this is exactly why I do not fear judgement from people like yourself.
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It's not really true about Muman. He has been examining his own actions and becoming more observant over time. He talks about this process frequently. I dont think he's trying to say he's perfect and everyone else isn't.
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It's not really true about Muman. He has been examining his own actions and becoming more observant over time. He talks about this process frequently. I dont think he's trying to say he's perfect and everyone else isn't.
Thank you..
I have been doing Teshuva for almost seven years and have become more observant of the commandments every year. I have never claimed to be perfect and I often reveal the things which I have changed in my own life. I have come very far from where I was in 2003 when I started this process. I have been very fortunate and blessed in many ways since I have returned to Jewish life.
It is sad that people like JTFE2 seem to need to rail against righteous people..
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Muman,
If I were you, I would worry about your own sins. I know I have my foibles and personal failings. People like yourself don't ever look in their own 'backyard' because that is far more difficult and painful. However this is exactly why I do not fear judgement from people like yourself.
If I were you I would worry about your sins... I did not start out trying to lecture you on anything. You on the other hand seem to have an axe to grind with those who follow the Torah.
http://www.secretscale.com/video_on_hiv_in_ny_state_and_gay.htm
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No Muman,
I have already exposed you as a very duplicitous character through your putting words in my mouth and purposefully adding additional commentary thereby distorting my original statements in a manner right out of the Goebbels big lie theory. Anyone can go back to the posts and look at my comments and then see in the next post the FICTION you added to them.
I rally against hypocrites. I respect and love truly righteous good people. They have my gratitude and undying loyalty.
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No Muman,
I have already exposed you as a very duplicitous character through your putting words in my mouth and purposefully distorting my statements in a manner right out of Goebbels. Anyone can go back tot he posts and look at my comments and then see in the next post the FICTION you added to them. I rally against hypocrites. I respect and love truly righteous good people. They have my gratitude and undying loyalty.
Oh please, you are the one who puts words in others mouth... I am tired of your idiocy sir...
I have gone back and looked at the posts I made and nowhere did I attack you or namecall you. History shows that you are the one who started down that path, then you claim I am the one who twisted your words...
Please quote for me what I said against you, what I said which upset you? Since I don't want to shower with gays? What kind of idiocy are you spouting.
I doubt you would know what is right and what is wrong if it was staring you in the face....
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First message I posted in this topic:
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,44265.msg429702.html#msg429702
Regardless, it is a sickness which needs to be dealt with. Gay men are a danger to other men... I would never shower in the same showers as any gay men for fear of germs. I know some will argue with me, but too bad... I will not take a chance dealing with people with such perversions.
To which you replied:
You are more obsessed with homosexuality than homosexuals. I have news for you, I doubt anyone is looking at you in the shower. And for G-d's sake, go into a stall with a private curtain like most adults. The only thing you can catch in a shower is athlete's foot. Grow up
So right off the bat you started to attack me for my feelings... {You are more obsessed with homosexuality than homosexuals, etc., etc..}
The I respond yo your insult {Grow up...} like this:
Your telling me to grow up.... Please.. The issue is that I dont think that unrepentant homosexuals should be in the same system as I am. I am old enough to have grown up long before this permissive and sick attitude concerning bending over for the gay agenda began. When I went to school I didn't know a single gay person... I went to an all boys school and if there were gay boys they kept it in the closet and they would have been ridiculed if they let others know.
The issue is not looking at me in the showers... The issue is that gays bring germs and disease where they go. Do you wonder why they close down the gay baths? It is a breeding ground for death and disease. AIDS is not the only sickness which the homosexuals bring.
Im sorry JTFEnthusiast but your lifestyle is against the Torah and against common sense. I hope you do not persist in this perversion...
Here again I tried to answer the issue... The issue was that I am concerned with the issue of the dirtiness, both spiritually and physically of the gay lifestyle.. I also tried a friendly rebuke, as I am commanded by Torah... If you expect to be accepted as a Torah Jew you must not persist in believing that your transgressions are not transgressions.
But you then come on against me again:
As i have told you many times, I do not act on my homosexual feelings, so you are not insulting me in the way you imagine. I'm actually not insulted by you at all. You're extremely ignorant in this regard, Muman, and recalcitrant in your desire to remain ignorant. That's a sin.
Your shower scenario is fiction. Most men when they take showers in public places actively go out of their way to avoid even the semblance of looking in the direction of another man. I certainly do. No one sane wants to activate the neurotic homosexual panic of a would be gay basher. As a physician, your statement about 'homosexuals bringing germs wherever they go" is just about the most ignorant thing I have heard on this forum. In order to get any kind of STD, you need to be in close intimate contact, you don't get STDs by shaking someone's hand or sitting close to them. I can't believe someone who is so intelligent in other areas is so blinded by his phobia--and yes, Muman, you are phobic. Your specific fears expressed here are irrational. When I was gay, no one ever got a disease from me, never mind sitting next to me.
I can't believe that I am even responding to this silliness.
So now you appear like I am trying to insult you, which I was not doing, and as is demonstrated in the history and the quotes above... You start in calling me ignorant & phobic amongst some of your other accusations. You start asserting that I said that you can catch STDs from shaking hands {which I never said}... I simply started my posting on this thread by saying that I don't want to be exposed to the germs. If you don't understand that then maybe someday I will explain it to you.
I am through arguing with you...
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1619871/
Most studies of sexually transmitted diseases in homosexual men have examined prevalence in clinic populations; for comparative purposes, we analyzed data from a survey of 4,329 gay men conducted in 1977. Among 4,212 respondents to the self-administered questionnaire, 66.8 per cent reported previous infection with pediculosis; 38.4 per cent, gonorrhea; 24.1 per cent, nonspecific urethritis; 18.1 per cent, venereal warts; 13.5 per cent, syphilis; 9.7 per cent, hepatitis; and 9.4 per cent, herpes. Number of different lifetime sexual partners best predicted histories of symphilis (r = .249), gonorrhea (r = .402), and the other diseases; frequency of checkups, years as a practicing homosexual, and furtive sexual activities were among the many other significant correlates of venereal infections. Respondents most often sought examinations from private physicians (39.4 per cent); those who visited gay clinics were examined most often and felt most positive about their medical care. Gay men who participated in the survey reported frequent infections with many of the same sexually transmitted diseases often seen in private medical practices, public VD clinics, and gay health centers. Since high rates of disease are related to large numbers of different partners, frequent exposures with anonymous contacts, and anal intercourse, we recommend frequent examinations for those whose life-styles include these characteristics.
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1619871/bin/amjph00669-0033.tif)
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Muman,
You are a waste of my time. I know you're a liar and so does anyone who reads your responses to my posts. Every fake moralistic post of yours includes outright taqqiyah about how I feel or think. All of which were fueled by your narcissistic need to be seen as uber moral when your behaviors shows you to be the exact opposite of moral. Moral people don't distort what other people say in order to falsely impune their character. All of your comments imply that I want you to say gay is ok--what total [censored]! I have said 90 times that I am not a practicing homosexual and in every post, you refer to me as supporting the gay lifestyle. If I supported it, you fool, I would be in it! Your multiple comments about not wanting to stand near a person in a shower for fear of contagion, only to then be denied when Zelhar confronted you. How did you avoid this? By changing the entire premise of the argument, stating that you were concerned about germs spread through sex in a shower. When was that ever an element of this argument, you ball faced liar. You have no honor whatsoever
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Muman,
You are a waste of my time. I know you're a liar and so does anyone who reads your responses to my posts. Every fake moralistic post of yours includes outright taqqiyah about how I feel or think. All of which were fueled by your narcissistic need to be seen as uber moral when your behaviors shows you to be the exact opposite of moral. Moral people don't distort what other people say in order to falsely impune their character. All of your comments imply that I want you to say gay is ok--what total excrement! I have said 90 times that I am not a practicing homosexual and in every post, you refer to me as supporting the gay lifestyle. If I supported it, you fool, I would be in it! Your multiple comments about not wanting to stand near a person in a shower for fear of contagion, only to then be denied when Zelhar confronted you. How did you avoid this? By changing the entire premise of the argument, stating that you were concerned about germs spread through sex in a shower. When was that ever an element of this argument, you ball faced liar. You have no honor whatsoever
Mr JTFE2 you have no honor... As I demonstrated above you are full of BS... You started in attacking me, lied about what I said, and you persist in your denial.
I believe that you have been exposed and I hope that you regret what you have said.
Your multiple comments about not wanting to stand near a person in a shower for fear of contagion, only to then be denied when Zelhar confronted you.
I did not deny making comments about not wanting to be in a public shower with gays.. But nowhere did I say that I believed I could catch gayness, which is what Zelhar asked about... {Do you even read these postings?}..
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,44265.msg429910.html#msg429910
Muman, do you think one can catch gayness by standing too close to an infected person in the showers ?
To which I replied:
Zelhar,
Are you being stupid?
A persons sexual attraction is the result of a complex behavioral process. There is no way one can catch 'gayness' from another through a shower. But the issue which I brought up concerns the dirtiness of the homosexual sex act, the related infection of germs which cause a variety of STDs, and the fact that spiritual infections are reflected in physical infections.
See my above post which explains from a statistical perspective the rate of infection of gay men...
Moral people don't distort what other people say in order to falsely impune their character.
See the above copy of the thread posts and see who falsely impunes the character of the other..
PS: It appears to me you have plenty of time to waste...
PPS: The dangers which I talk about are not merely the infection of the body, but the infection of the soul...
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Muman,
I'm done with you and your lying, distortions, and covering up. Keep selectively posting. Anyone who follows the entire thread will see that my characterization and quoting of your behavior here is meticulous. Keep Goebbelsing away. I have other things to do with my life
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Muman,
I'm done with you and your lying, distortions, and covering up. Keep selectively posting. Anyone who follows the entire thread will see that my characterization and quoting of your behavior here is meticulous. Keep Goebbelsing away. I have other things to do with my life
OOo, you got me... Are you happy? Pathetic!
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Interesting you didn't post any of your comments that you then denied to Zelhar. Like this one
"Regardless, it is a sickness which needs to be dealt with. Gay men are a danger to other men... I would never shower in the same showers as any gay men for fear of germs. I know some will argue with me, but too bad... I will not take a chance dealing with people with such perversions."
Then you state, "Zelhar,
Are you being stupid?
A persons sexual attraction is the result of a complex behavioral process. There is no way one can catch 'gayness' from another through a shower. But the issue which I brought up concerns the dirtiness of the homosexual sex act, the related infection of germs which cause a variety of STDs, and the fact that spiritual infections are reflected in physical infections"
Gee, that's odd, our argument had to do with standing in the shower next to someone, now you've lied yet again about what you said, but it's plain as day what you originally said.
Muman, your hypocrisy is all over this thread. I mean and you are not even honest with yourself, that's the greatest tragedy here.
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Interesting you didn't post any of your comments that you then denied to Zelhar. Like this one
"Regardless, it is a sickness which needs to be dealt with. Gay men are a danger to other men... I would never shower in the same showers as any gay men for fear of germs. I know some will argue with me, but too bad... I will not take a chance dealing with people with such perversions."
Muman, your hypocrisy is all over this thread. I mean and you are not even honest with yourself, that's the greatest tragedy here.
You obviously didn't read when I reposted this about four posts above:
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,44265.msg429942.html#msg429942
Give it up man... You are not winning...
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No Muman, I won about 10 posts ago, but I resent watching a Jew engage in Goebbels like behavior. I've gotten many comments about how I should not waste my time arguing with you, but you're a liar and that offends me.
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בס''ד
Gentlemen, please! Why all of the insults and nasty name-calling? This is embarrassing.
JTFE, from the start you felt personally offended by this thread. But the purpose of this thread was not to offend righteous individuals like yourself.
You are righteous, JTFE. I have the utmost respect and admiration for you. Why? Because G-d has severely tested you by giving you a sexual desire which is forbidden. And you are passing the test every day that you avoid indulging your sexual desire. That is very difficult to do, and I sincerely salute you. In my book, you're a hero.
If you recall, JTFE, everyone on this forum was very supportive and expressed admiration for you when you revealed to us the test that you have in your life. No one hated you or looked down at you, G-d forbid. On the contrary, every moral person should look up to you.
JTFE, you should not take threads like this personally. They are not aimed at you. They are aimed at convincing active homosexuals to change their nightmarish existence. BTW, sinful heterosexuals also have a nightmarish existence.
Muman, JTFE lashed out because he felt personally offended by this thread. I think you should have responded the way I did - with ahavat yisrael (love of one's fellow Jews). To try to humiliate JTFE for his past actions is not the Torah way. To publicly shame someone who has changed their ways is like trying to shame a baal tshuva. To repeatedly state that JTFE is defending the gay lifestyle is untrue and unfair. Even if JTFE lashed out, I believe that you should have responded with understanding.
When we all learn to rise above our personal hurt feelings and our egos (all of us, myself included), this will be a much better world.
I hope that JTFE and Muman can be friends. Whether they like it or not, they are brothers.
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I am open to friendship. I have written JTFE2 a PM which I hope was not offensive..
And I had no intention to shame him, or anyone... I apologize if my original post was taken as homophobic, but it is not... I just try to avoid being around people who engage in such behavior {at least who are proud of doing such things}.
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I am open to friendship. I have written JTFE2 a PM which I hope was not offensive..
And I had no intention to shame him, or anyone... I apologize if my original post was taken as homophobic, but it is not... I just try to avoid being around people who engage in such behavior {at least who are proud of doing such things}.
בס''ד
We must be uncompromising in our opposition to the homosexual lifestyle. But when someone changes their ways, we must welcome them with open arms.
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Muman, you were dishonest here from the get go. You repeatedly added things to my posts and I had to spend half of my post defending your fictitious additions. We will only be friends when I believe you are being honest and I do not believe that. You had so many times to be genuine and honest in this discussion and instead you accused me of lying, promoting a gay agenda (which I largely distrust and dislike), and demanding that you like or accept the gay lifestyle. None of which I demand of anyone.
Your comments were about showering and your not wanting to be physically near to someone who is gay; they were not about obscene gay fornication in a public place which is absolutely inappropriate and reminiscent of a time that should have never been and should never be again. I do not believe you Muman. You had every opportunity to be decent and clean with me and you were not.
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Muman, you were dishonest here from the get go. You repeatedly added things to my posts and I had to spend half of my post defending your fictitious additions. We will only be friends when I believe you are being honest and I do not believe that. You had so many times to be genuine and honest in this discussion and instead you accused me of lying, promoting a gay agenda (which I largely distrust and dislike), and demanding that you like or accept the gay lifestyle. None of which I demand of anyone.
Your comments were about showering and your not wanting to be physically near to someone who is gay; they were not about obscene gay fornication in a public place which is absolutely inappropriate and reminiscent of a time that should have never been and should never be again. I do not believe you Muman. You had every opportunity to be decent and clean with me and you were not.
Once again I dont understand what in tarnations you are talking about.
I said simply:
I wouldnt want to shower with people who were gay because of the germs that they carry...
I did not say that shaking hands with them or playing sports with them will cause me to get STDs. I am simply furthering the assertion which this thread brings up, and according to google searches I have done, which is that gay men carry many, many germs for infectious diseases including STDs and AIDS.
The issue about taking a shower with gays was an example of being in a situation where I feel especially uncomfortable with gay men. I am fortunate since I have not taken a public shower since I graduated high school, over 26 years ago.... You then took this statement as 'homophobic' and then started to call me ignorant, etc.
If you want to hold a grudge, so be it... I never hated you, never tried to demean you, always tried to lift you up... If you want to hate me that is your decision.
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Fine, let's let it drop.
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It's too long to read. I'd only add that men should perhaps avoid sharing a shower if one of them has a gay orientation (even if he does not act upon his urges) for a question of tzniut.
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Now, Muman, why do you ask JTFEnthusiast to repent from sins of homosexuality if he said the he does not have homosexual relations? It's like telling a Jew to do Teshuvah for having felt hungry or thirsty on a fast day and did not even think of breaking the fast! Or telling a Gentile to repent for liking his neighbours' car when he never thought about robbing!
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Now, Muman, why do you ask JTFEnthusiast to repent from sins of homosexuality if he said the he does not have homosexual relations? It's like telling a Jew to do Teshuvah for having felt hungry or thirsty on a fast day and did not even think of breaking the fast! Or telling a Gentile to repent for liking his neighbours' car when he never thought about robbing!
It seemed from the outset of this thread that he was defending the gay lifestyle. I was not aware of his history. I simply made a comment that I believe what the study which this thread was created about, that homosexual men have a higher rate of sexually transmitted diseases and I dont like the idea of public showering with homosexuals.
I did not mean to imply that anyone who comes in contact with them will contract the disease. I also believe that those who suffer with same sex attraction are just like everyone else who has tests of restraint and control. I have my own issues in other areas which I am working on. But I made a one paragraph statement in response to the original posting and I got labeled a homophobe and ignorant.
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I am not speaking about the issue of germs. I am speaking about your suggestion to do Teshuvah. How can he do Teshuvah about something he did not do? And if you suspect that he is lying and is doing sodomy, not good to rebuke a transgressor who hides his transgression. But if he is saying the truth, you should be careful, because it's not easy to overcome any temptation to sin, and condemning him just for an inclination could only stress him and make his struggle more hard, increasing the risk of falling into temptations.
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I am not speaking about the issue of germs. I am speaking about your suggestion to do Teshuvah. How can he do Teshuvah about something he did not do? And if you suspect that he is lying and is doing sodomy, not good to rebuke a transgressor who hides his transgression. But if he is saying the truth, you should be careful, because it's not easy to overcome any temptation to sin, and condemning him just for an inclination could only stress him and make his struggle more hard, increasing the risk of falling into temptations.
He has admitted that he did it in the past. So he must have done Teshuvah.. But I was not aware until now..
You dont need to tell me about overcoming desire. I have much experience in that department.
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He has admitted that he did it in the past. So he must have done Teshuvah.. But I was not aware until now..
You dont need to tell me about overcoming desire. I have much experience in that department.
I was just saying that rebuking someone who has only an inclination to any forbidden act and didn't do that (also someone who made Teshuvah) could only depress him and weaking his determination to keep on with his struggle.
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He has admitted that he did it in the past. So he must have done Teshuvah.. But I was not aware until now..
You dont need to tell me about overcoming desire. I have much experience in that department.
I was just saying that rebuking someone who has only an inclination to any forbidden act and didn't do that (also someone who made Teshuvah) could only depress him and weaking his determination to keep on with his struggle.
Let us no longer speak about this topic. I am afraid of saying things I should not say. I already feel bad that I brought this up now...
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And regarding the main issue of the topic, the health problems, I must say that even if they don't get any STD, any person who engages in anal or oral sex can weaken his/her inmune system and has an increased risk of getting any infectious disease even a non STD (even if both partners are completely healthy). A person unnaturaly exposed to sperm devolopes antibodies to it. Curiously those antibodies also react to and attack imune cells in the blood.
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Your telling me to grow up.... Please.. The issue is that I dont think that unrepentant homosexuals should be in the same system as I am. I am old enough to have grown up long before this permissive and sick attitude concerning bending over for the gay agenda began[/color]. When I went to school I didn't know a single gay person... I went to an all boys school and if there were gay boys they kept it in the closet and they would have been ridiculed if they let others know.
The issue is not looking at me in the showers... The issue is that gays bring germs and disease where they go. Do you wonder why they close down the gay baths? It is a breeding ground for death and disease. AIDS is not the only sickness which the homosexuals bring.
Im sorry JTFEnthusiast but your lifestyle is against the Torah and against common sense. I hope you do not persist in this perversion...
???
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Chaim, well said.
However, I will not stand by that antidentite comment by JTFE2. You and I both know very well that dental students learn the same things as medical students PLUS have to do a million other things in the lab at the same time.
While medicine is a thankless job and physicians hardly make as much a descent living, I admire many of them because they work their butts off.
However, I tend to notice that many internists, all they do is prescribe medicine for everything little problem that can resolve on its own.
FYI, dentist, I still need to have an understanding of one's health and basics.
Just like certain medical specialties, they themselves sometimes don't remember every little thing you might remember from your classes. My assumption is that you are a medical student studying for his boards, so you better remember all that minute detail about MSRA.
Anyhow, you are an antidentite and one day when your teeth break or cause a lot of pain, you'll remember who really has the POWER in their hands. Toothaches are no fun, buddy boy!
As far as comparing Muman to Goebells, I'm sorry, that's the funniest and most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
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I once took a shower at the same time with someone who revealed to me he was gay. He then followed by asking me out to dinner. So make it what you want, I don't go in public showers anymore. And if I had to, I hurry it up and get the heck out as quick as possible. Call me a homophobe if you want. But for the women out there, how would you feel if you were taking a shower around men leering at you?
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JTFE
I do want to commend you for changing your ways so far. I'm sorry I never said it before. I do not hate you. I do disagree with your approach of showing real facts in a way that seems to me you are justifying that isn't right. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. By presenting all of those studies what are you trying to say?
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Homosexuality is an abomination to mankind.