JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mord on April 01, 2010, 06:09:22 AM
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http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/201826.php
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Ironic isn't it? It's supposed to be Good Friday tomorrow. Not for him. Yimach shemo to Saudi Arabia.
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It sickens me that the United States considers that sick country as an ally. White countries haven't been so ignorant as to put "sorcerors" to death for quite some time now. When are the Muslims going to join the rest of us in the 21st century?
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Where are the leftists screaming "Crime against humanity"? Oh wait, they only do that to civilized country's when they defend themselves.
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It sickens me that the United States considers that sick country as an ally. White countries haven't been so ignorant as to put "sorcerors" to death for quite some time now. When are the Muslims going to join the rest of us in the 21st century?
"Never and more"
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Ironic isn't it? It's supposed to be Good Friday tomorrow. Not for him. Yimach shemo to Saudi Arabia.
They are totally against anything that they think to be infidel.
So on the Good Friday they may manage that the corpse will lie in the street of the great city that is symbolically called Sodom.
Now we will know that to which great city they symbolically call as Sodom.
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So this is a Lebanese? What was he doing in Saudi Arabia? Went over to spend some time with his arab "brothers", maybe a pilgrimage to see Mecca, and got more than he bargained for huh.
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That's the same site who published the joke about Obama trying to change the Hagadah. Perhaps it's just satire or an April fools prank. But Arab countries are used to that kind of executions daily. No wonder!!! The silly thing is that liberals keep on supporting those who want to kill them.
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It sickens me that the United States considers that sick country as an ally. White countries haven't been so ignorant as to put "sorcerors" to death for quite some time now. When are the Muslims going to join the rest of us in the 21st century?
Never. They are 14 centuries back.
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I dont want to give the wrong impression here but...
The Torah expressly forbids sorcery. I am not fully cognizant of what constitutes sorcery but the Torah proscribes death to a person found guilty of sorcery. Of course sorcery could not be considered what most charlatans today call fortune telling. If this man is a fortune teller I don't think it constitutes sorcery.
http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/48938547.html
"A sorcerer shall not be allowed to live." (Exodus 22:17)
"For you are coming into a land that God is granting to you; do not learn the ways of the abominations of the native people. There shall not be found amongst you ... a sorcerer, soothsayer or engager of witchcraft ... or one who calls up the dead. For it is an abomination before God, and it is on account of these abominations that God is giving you their land." (Deut. 18:9-12)
UNDERSTANDING IDOL WORSHIP
Idol worship is the perception that there are many forces with various powers over mankind and perhaps even over G-d. The idolater thinks that he can use these "powers" against G-d if he only knew how to wrest them away from G-d.
It's as if G-d's power were vested in a gun He holds in His hand. The idolater thinks that if could only wrest the gun from G-d, then he'd wield that power. He equates the spells of witchcraft with the ability to overpower G-d.
The prime example of this thinking is the evil prophet Bilaam, who is called a sorcerer by the Torah. He was a person very knowledgeable in this area of the universe. He kept scheming to use the world of magic against G-d. He thought he understood the mind of G-d and that with enough powerful manipulation, he would be able to outfox Him!
In a sense, this is the worst form of idolatry possible. On the one hand, the person is onto something "real." It is not a weird looking rock that a primitive mind has fantasized into a G-d. Rather, it is a power that works. Yet, it is utterly false, because nothing is independent of G-d.
For us, the litmus test of "spirituality" is morality. Any form of "spirituality" that makes no moral demands on a human being, that does not seek to bring him closer to G-d, or bring out the Divine potential of man, is bogus or evil spirituality.
If a person practices "occult rites" and the content thereof is a mumble of strange words, bizarre costumes, or strange rites, it is either bogus or evil. It usually is bogus, but in those cases that he has tapped into these powers, it is evil for he has divorced it from G-d.
The great rabbis who performed supernatural acts, were using them to bring home a message about G-d. They enjoined people to recognize the Creator, develop their character, be kind to others, be honest and faithful, reign in their drives, etc. Understood in the larger context of G-d, Torah and morality, these unusual miracles were indeed Divine revelations.
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More Jewish understanding of Sorcery:
http://www.torah.org/learning/halacha-overview/chapter4.html
c) Idolatrous and Magical Practices
It is forbidden to imitate the style of worship used by idolators even in worshipping Ha-Shem. In particular, the Torah forbids erecting pillars for worship, as it says "And you shall not set up a pillar 26; or setting down stones to bow down on except in the Temple, as it says "[You shall not make yourselves false gods nor set up idols or pillars] and you shall not put carved stones in your land to bow down on"27; or planting trees in the Temple, as it says "You shall not plant any sacred tree next to the altar of Ha-Shem your G-d".28,r
Divination and sorcery are forbidden; the Torah enumerates many specific types: "Do not turn to ghosts or familiar spirits"29,s; "[You shall not learn to imitate the abominations of those nations;] there shall not be found among you one who passes his son or daughter through fire (this refers to Moloch worship: "You shall not give of your seed to pass to Moloch"30,t), a diviner, a soothsayer, an enchanter, a sorcerer, a charmer, one who consults a ghost or familiar spirit, or a necromancer"31; "You shall not practice divination or soothsaying".32,u
http://www.webshas.org/science/misc/super/kishuf.htm
Forms of Magic
The Prohibition against Practicing Magic
This law as a law regarding which one should be warned that it carries the death penalty [Lav haNitan leAzharat Mitat Beit Din]: Eruvin 17b
Punishment of sekilah for violating this law: Berachot 21b
Punishment of lashes for violating this law: Eruvin 17b
Judges in the High Court must be versed in Magic: Menachot 65a
Learning from an Attacker of the Torah: Shabbat 75a
Learning from an Attacker of the Torah, in order to teach the Laws: Shabbat 75a
Using Magic to protect one's self: Shabbat 81b; Kiddushin 39b; R. Shabbat 81b "Amri Inhu" [And See Bach]
The "Kishuf" form of Magic
Sorcerers and astrologers prophesy without knowing what they are seeing: Sotah 12b
There was a time when young Jewish women became more involved in magic: Eruvin 64b
Interaction of Kishuf and Shaidim Spirits: R. Chagigah 3b "SheTishreh"
Ameimar was taught a protective chant by a Head Sorceress, against sorceresses: Pesachim 110a-b
Pairs of more than two items are dangerous; they might be affected by Magic: Pesachim 110b
Whole rolls, as opposed to pieces, have a greater danger of use for magic: Eruvin 64b
Magic causing a palm tree to shrivel or shriek: Pesachim 110b
Passing over spilled water in a place of Magic: Pesachim 111a
For two people to pass around items associated with Magic, or for one person to pass between two items associated with Magic: Pesachim 111a
What to do, if one did one of the actions on the line above: Pesachim 111a
Leaving food on the ground where one finds it, due to concern that someone may have cast a spell on it: Eruvin 64b
What a man and woman should do, in terms of Magic, if they meet on her way up from Ritual Bath: Pesachim 111a
Wiping one's self with pottery: Shabbat 81b-82a
Killing a louse on one's clothing: Shabbat 82a
Eating a vegetable from a bunch, without untying the whole bunch: Shabbat 82a
Medication for Magic: Shabbat 109b
Chover Chaver - Summoning Aid, or Charming Beasts to join each other
Bringing an offering to a Shaid [spirit], as sorcery to gain its assistance: Keritot 3b
Charming beasts to join them together: Keritot 3b-4a
Charming beasts to prevent them from harming one's self: Keritot 3b
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Muman, rememeber the this man is almost sure a Gentile and so the Torah for Jews do not apply to him. It's the Noahide Laws that be applied to him. Anyway there's no Sanhdrin to Judge Jews (and Gentiles living in Israel) and no Noahide judges for Gentiles outside the Holy Land. So capital punishment cannot be used anymore in such cases. It may perhaps be only valid to punish murder.
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Muman, rememeber the this man is almost sure a Gentile and so the Torah for Jews do not apply to him. It's the Noahide Laws that be applied to him. Anyway there's no Sanhdrin to Judge Jews (and Gentiles living in Israel) and no Noahide judges for Gentiles outside the Holy Land. So capital punishment cannot be used anymore in such cases. It may perhaps be only valid to punish murder.
You are aware Raulmarrio that we intend to rebuild the Temple and to re-establish the Sanhedrin some day. When that day comes these punishments will be reinstituted. In the meantime I do not advise anyone to contemplate becoming a witch or a sorcerer.
PS: And I did not intend that my discussion of the Torah prohibition on sorcery was being carried out by the Muslims. They have their own laws on this... But a Jew should never accept a witch or a sorcerer.
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Muman, I agree that actual sorcery is a very serious sin. However I also believe that as long as someone si not doing anything violent, that they shouldn't be put to death for following the wrong religion or evil belief system.
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Speaking of witches and sorcerers,
Are the readers here aware that our United States Armed Forces now officially recognizes Wicca and other pagan cults? --
I recently read a news article about how the Air Force Training Academy just held a ceremony opening their newly built "Pagan worship center", built and financed with taxpayer dollars.
Our armed forces now all have full time "pagan" & "wiccan" priests and warlocks as active duty "chaplains" to serve the ever growing numbers of pagan members and new recruits into all branches of the armed services.
In my opinion, an armed force leadership which has welcomed and supports pagans, wiccans, and homosexuals into the armed forces, has put our nation under a curse and removed the protection of the Divine.
Hussein O. is merely the visible proof that the disease affecting the patient may be terminal.
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Massuh that is very sad and I do agree that it will bring curses upon this nation.
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Rubystars: "However I also believe that as long as someone is not doing anything violent, that they shouldn't be put to death for following the wrong religion or evil belief system."
As is evident, Rubystars, Torah Law from a "strict constructionist" view, is much at odds with our American Legislative & Judicial System, Constitution, Bill of Rights, and our highly secular upbringing most of us on this forum have been brought up in and taught from birth to believe in and promote.*
As Americans we are raised to believe that anyone vowing loyalty to the Constitution and possessing American citizenship, has the full rights to worship or not worship as they choose, to embrace any cult or beliefs, just as long as they obey all laws and do not interfere with the rights of other citizens to do the same.
Of course, the New Testament also has teachings opposed to "modern life" ["If thy eye offend thee, pluck it out...if thy hand offend thee, cut it off"]
This is just one of the reasons that so many modern day Jewish Israelis develop such craziness in their politics...they believe in the right to a "Jewish State" and "The Ingathering of the Exiles" all the while denouncing as "archaic" and "racist" the very Torah which is the basis for their core beliefs!
The founders of the State and most of its citizens were long exposed to enlightened Western science and culture.
Not so the Mohammedans! -- they have it easy -- they never left the 6th Century, take the word of Mohammed literally, and so when they find someone reading their horoscope in the New York Times they have no problem torturing and beheading them.
*Moses is told by Ha'Shem in Torah to appoint Judges over Israel, who are to interpret the Law "according to each generation" ... so there is some "wiggle room" for not having to literally kill witches & sorcerers. (instead we now just cancel all their credit cards and their AAA membership for their punishment!) :::D
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Massuh, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with taking a kid who plays with a magic 8 ball and stoning them to death. What this guy did on his show seems equivalent to that.
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Muslims are the biggest sorcerers of all. What is their obsession with the jinn all about, anyway?
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Massuh that is very sad and I do agree that it will bring curses upon this nation.
If it was a magic show with natural tricks, there is no sin inlvolved as far as I know. But Muslims kill for anything, even for listening to music.
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Massuh that is very sad and I do agree that it will bring curses upon this nation.
If it was a magic show with natural tricks, there is no sin inlvolved as far as I know. But Muslims kill for anything, even for listening to music.
The guy was probably using a very secular, non-supernatural technique known as cold reading. However he was really stupid to tell the authorities he got his information from spirits if he really didn't. In cold reading, the reader gets the information from the person being read, who volunteers it unwittingly. I still think it's bad to deceive people like that of course.
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*Moses is told by Ha'Shem in Torah to appoint Judges over Israel, who are to interpret the Law "according to each generation" ... so there is some "wiggle room" for not having to literally kill witches & sorcerers. (instead we now just cancel all their credit cards and their AAA membership for their punishment!) rotflmao!
I don't know if I agree with you on this point. Judges are meant to interpret the law, not to change the law. Do you think that judges could one day say that it is OK to start fires on Shabbat even though the Torah repeatedly says that one who violates Shabbat should be stoned to death? This is exactly the thinking of the Reform movement. Same thing with the law which says that Homosexuality is an abomination... The reformers say that since Hashem gave the judges the ability to judge 'according to each generation', and in this generation homosexuality is acceptable, therefore the Torah must be changed to reflect the current moral standards. I strongly disagree with this view and I stand against the reform movement.
I do believe that one who believes he is working black magic (and his evil work is evident to two or more witnesses and he has been warned) should be removed from this world...
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Dr. Brennan Fan: "What is their [Muslims] obsession with the jinn all about, anyway?"
One of 'em is supposed to be a nose demon ! -- it crawls up your nose when you're asleep out in the desert!
:::D
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These Arabs are just the worst. Beheading a guy for a bunch of bullshittt.
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Re: "Judges are meant to interpret the law, not to change the law."
This being a given, how best to punish someone who violates the Sabbath this year in Connecticut or Tel Aviv?
People living in the Western world who would put others to death in accord with Torah Law will be arrested, charged with murder, and prosecuted.
Same goes for modern day State of Israel.
Have there ever been any incidents of such stoning to death in the State of Israel?
Occasionally we hear of the unobservant being pelted with rocks in Mea Shearim . I'm not well informed as regards all that goes on among modern day Jews, but am curious to know if anyone here on the forum is aware of Jews carrying out "death by stoning" sentences in the present day.
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Not every muslim is a muslim by choice, in the case of Jewish woman who were forced to marry a muslim man the child is Jewish under Jewish law but in Islamic countries, the child is muslim if the father is muslim and leaving islam (apostate) is death penalty, so maybe this was a rare case, who knows. Mecca has a lot of immigrants and people not originally from there.
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Re: "Judges are meant to interpret the law, not to change the law."
This being a given, how best to punish someone who violates the Sabbath this year in Connecticut or Tel Aviv?
People living in the Western world who would put others to death in accord with Torah Law will be arrested, charged with murder, and prosecuted.
Same goes for modern day State of Israel.
Have there ever been any incidents of such stoning to death in the State of Israel?
Occasionally we hear of the unobservant being pelted with rocks in Mea Shearim . I'm not well informed as regards all that goes on among modern day Jews, but am curious to know if anyone here on the forum is aware of Jews carrying out "death by stoning" sentences in the present day.
I think I already addressed this... We are incapable of carrying out these sentences, or even imposing them today... They can only be sentenced by the Sanhedrin, the Supreme Court of Jewish law which consisted of 70 of the wisest men {they had to know 70 languages}. Without the Sanhedrin we are left on our own and the punishments laid out in Torah cannot be carried out.
Im sorry if I did not make that clear before. And I am not going to be the one to suggest Torah mandated punishment, or to carry out the punishment, or to be a witness against anyone who violates Shabbat.
We have a long way to go before we can return to Hashem the way he wants us to. But I have faith that the day will come... May it be in our day.
http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/sanhedrin.htm
"Sanhedrin" - (m., pl. "Sanhedriyaot") - 1. the Jewish "Supreme Court;" it consisted of seventy one great Torah Sages, who met in the "Lishkat HaGazit," the "Office of Hewn Stone," adjacent to the Temple in Jerusalem; 2. The Masechta, or Folio of the Talmud that discusses the activities of the Sanhedrin, and related matters.
The Rabbis who were the members of the Sanhedrin had all received "Semichah," the formal passing over of the Tradition from their teachers.
On the floor of the Sanhedrin were debated the fundamental principles of the Torah, and the result was established by majority vote.
Cases that were the most difficult or the most critical for the Jewish People were decided by the Sanhedrin. A majority had to be at least two votes. Any Capital case in which all the votes were for condemnation, was automatically changed to acquittal.
There is discussion in the Talmud of the question of how frequently capital punishment was imposed by the Sanhedrin, although the Torah does explicitly allow for it. Some said that a Sanhedrin that imposed the death penalty once in seven years was considered "bloody;" another opinion is that it was seventy years. Another said that it depended on the generation. Yet another was that restraint in imposing the death penalty would increase the number of murderers in Israel.
After the Temple was destroyed, the Sanhedrin moved from place to place in Israel. It finally was dissolved when, in the absence of the greatest Sages of Israel, the Institution of Semichah could no longer be applied.
During the Middle Ages, there was an attempt to revive the Sanhedrin by re-instituting Semichah. But due to opposition by some of the Torah Sages of that generation, the idea never became a reality.
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These muslamic killers do not have an iota of regards for the sacred Torah laws or any inklings of appreciation towards the liberal American traditions. So they can not be compared with any of them.
Muslam by itself is such a retrogressive phenomenon that it may be difficult to connect it to any positive worldly affair.