JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Confederate Kahanist on May 23, 2010, 05:05:36 PM
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http://www.onenewsnow.com/Business/Default.aspx?id=1021674
SAN FRANCISCO - The founder of the group Jews for Jesus has died after a long battle with prostate cancer. Moishe Rosen was 78.
In a press release, Jews for Jesus says Rosen was raised in an Orthodox Jewish family, but converted to Christianity at the age of 21 when he became convinced that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.
In 1973, he founded the organization whose mission statement is "to make the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide." Those evangelistic efforts have been denounced by Jewish groups and by some churches as well.
In a posthumous letter on the Jews for Jesus website, Rosen says: "Within Judaism today, there is no salvation because Christ has no place within Judaism."
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:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:
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YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS 8)
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:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:
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בס''ד
Baruch Hashem!
If he thought prostate cancer was rough, that is nothing compared to his current problems in the next world. He is in a very warm place, and he will be staying there forever.
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:) :dance:
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why the celebration ?
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why the celebration ?
He founded an organization that was dedicated to getting Jews to leave Judaism.
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why the celebration ?
He founded an organization that was dedicated to getting Jews to leave Judaism.
And ?
Thats what Christians do. Evangelize.
Was he some far left-wing nut, or am i missing something.
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Baruch Hashem this piece of human excrement has left this world. This organization will burn in gehinnom for leading all the Jews astray to follow a foreign G-d. All missionaries should be shot on sight!
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why the celebration ?
He founded an organization that was dedicated to getting Jews to leave Judaism.
And ?
Thats what Christians do. Evangelize.
Was he some far left-wing nut, or am i missing something.
That is what some of them do, and we don't like that.
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בס''ד
Baruch Hashem!
If he thought prostate cancer was rough, that is nothing compared to his current problems in the next world. He is in a very warm place, and he will be staying there forever.
OMG, I am preparing for a presentation and I needed a laugh. here I am sitting on my bed ploughing away through different papers for this conference and man I needed that laugh. Sorry Chaim, I know you weren't trying to be funny and I am laughing at your statements which while true have the capacity to really crack me up. The way you wrote Baruch Hashem, I could see your finger go up like a lightening rod to the sky.
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why the celebration ?
He founded an organization that was dedicated to getting Jews to leave Judaism.
And ?
Thats what Christians do. Evangelize.
Was he some far left-wing nut, or am i missing something.
You have heard of J4J? They try to make dumb Jews believe that Jesus was the Jewish messiah..They attempt to continue to practice the Mitzvahs, but they accept the false messiah as their savior... These people are the most wicked vile pieces of human drek because they attack our weak and unlearned Jews, just like Amalek did...
I hope that J4J is swallowed up by the earth like the followers of Korach...
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I don't see how you can be a 'Jew for Jesus' if you converted to Christianity.
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Re: "swallowed up by the earth like the followers of Korach..."
Edward G. Robinson!
I saw that movie!!! :::D
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I don't see how you can be a 'Jew for Jesus' if you converted to Christianity.
You see, thats the brilliant thing... They don't have to 'convert'... They just give up on G-d and accept the Christian savior, they can still observe Shabbat, Tzit-Tzits, Kippah, Tefillin, Mezzuzah.... BUT They must worship Jesus now... I don't have any idea how a 'real' Jew could even begin to accept these ideas...
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Baruch Hashem this piece of human excrement has left this world. This organization will burn in gehinnom for leading all the Jews astray to follow a foreign G-d. All missionaries should be shot on sight!
Shot on sight ? Thats kind of insane wouldnt you say.
If someone hates a Jew just for being Jewish, they are called a Nazi. But a Christian should be shot on sight just for being Christian ? Quite the double standard, id say.
What about freedom of religion and free will ? Missionaries arent forcing anyone to do anything. I assume you're not a communist.
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Baruch Hashem this piece of human excrement has left this world. This organization will burn in gehinnom for leading all the Jews astray to follow a foreign G-d. All missionaries should be shot on sight!
Shot on sight ? Thats kind of insane wouldnt you say.
If someone hates a Jew just for being Jewish, they are called a Nazi. But a Christian should be shot on sight just for being Christian ? Quite the double standard, id say.
What about freedom of religion and free will ? Missionaries arent forcing anyone to do anything. I assume you're not a communist.
Someone who converts Jews to Christianity is just as bad as a Muslim terrorist. The difference is a spiritual death vs. a physical death.
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Baruch Hashem this piece of human excrement has left this world. This organization will burn in gehinnom for leading all the Jews astray to follow a foreign G-d. All missionaries should be shot on sight!
Shot on sight ? Thats kind of insane wouldnt you say.
If someone hates a Jew just for being Jewish, they are called a Nazi. But a Christian should be shot on sight just for being Christian ? Quite the double standard, id say.
What about freedom of religion and free will ? Missionaries arent forcing anyone to do anything. I assume you're not a communist.
Someone who converts Jews to Christianity is just as bad as a Muslim terrorist. The difference is a spiritual death vs. a physical death.
The Christian point of view is those converts are saved souls and will have eternal life.
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Baruch Hashem this piece of human excrement has left this world. This organization will burn in gehinnom for leading all the Jews astray to follow a foreign G-d. All missionaries should be shot on sight!
Shot on sight ? Thats kind of insane wouldnt you say.
If someone hates a Jew just for being Jewish, they are called a Nazi. But a Christian should be shot on sight just for being Christian ? Quite the double standard, id say.
What about freedom of religion and free will ? Missionaries arent forcing anyone to do anything. I assume you're not a communist.
Someone who converts Jews to Christianity is just as bad as a Muslim terrorist. The difference is a spiritual death vs. a physical death.
The Christian point of view is those converts are saved souls and will have eternal life.
well that's not the Jewish point of view
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Baruch Hashem this piece of human excrement has left this world. This organization will burn in gehinnom for leading all the Jews astray to follow a foreign G-d. All missionaries should be shot on sight!
Shot on sight ? Thats kind of insane wouldnt you say.
If someone hates a Jew just for being Jewish, they are called a Nazi. But a Christian should be shot on sight just for being Christian ? Quite the double standard, id say.
What about freedom of religion and free will ? Missionaries arent forcing anyone to do anything. I assume you're not a communist.
Someone who converts Jews to Christianity is just as bad as a Muslim terrorist. The difference is a spiritual death vs. a physical death.
Yes this is true... We learn this on Channukah when they wanted to kill our spirits by removing the Torah from us...
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Baruch Hashem this piece of human excrement has left this world. This organization will burn in gehinnom for leading all the Jews astray to follow a foreign G-d. All missionaries should be shot on sight!
Shot on sight ? Thats kind of insane wouldnt you say.
If someone hates a Jew just for being Jewish, they are called a Nazi. But a Christian should be shot on sight just for being Christian ? Quite the double standard, id say.
What about freedom of religion and free will ? Missionaries arent forcing anyone to do anything. I assume you're not a communist.
This is not 'Hating Christians', as you put it...
One who turns a Jew away from G-d is a cursed person, and worthy of nothing but contempt.
This is one reason Jews and Christians have such a hard time getting along. Your religion is one which prosetylizes while Judaism does not attempt to convert anyone... Only those who want to convert are allowed the chance to do so. We don't force G-d down anyones throught, at the tip of a sword, or threaten to burn them at stakes, as so many Jews died at the hands of the Inquisitors.
I don't want to say how I feel when I hear about these cursed missionaries... Please Hashem restrain me..
PS: Freedom of religion means respecting a Jews religion and not attempting to sell him a bad apple.
We don't send 'missionaries' into places where there are non-practicing christians and attempt to get them to convert. It is a basic difference between your religion and ours. And a reason I believe Judaism is superior.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J4j
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Jewish opposition
In 1993 the Task Force on Missionaries and Cults of the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York (JCRCNY) issued a statement which has been endorsed by the four major Jewish denominations: Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, and Reconstructionist Judaism, as well as national Jewish organizations.[8] Based on this statement, the Spiritual Deception Prevention Project at the JCRCNY stated:
On several occasions leaders of the four major Jewish movements have signed on to joint statements opposing Hebrew-Christian theology and tactics. In part they said: "Though Hebrew Christianity claims to be a form of Judaism, it is not ... It deceptively uses the sacred symbols of Jewish observance ... as a cover to convert Jews to Christianity, a belief system antithetical to Judaism ... Hebrew Christians are in radical conflict with the communal interests and the destiny of the Jewish people. They have crossed an unbridgeable chasm by accepting another religion. Despite this separation, they continue to attempt to convert their former co-religionists."[46]
The director of a counter-missionary group Torah Atlanta, Rabbi Efraim Davidson, stated that "the Jews for Jesus use aggressive proselytizing to target disenfranchised or unaffiliated Jews, Russian immigrants and college students" and that "their techniques are manipulative, deceptive and anti-Semitic."[47]
In his 1997 book The Vanishing American Jew: In Search of Jewish Identity for the Next Century, Alan Dershowitz wrote: "In America, and in other nations that separate church from state, one's Jewishness is a matter of self-definition ..." but notes: "I do not mean to include former Jews who practice Christianity under the deliberately misleading name Jews for Jesus. A Jew for Jesus already has a name: a Christian."[48] However, it should be noted that Dershowitz was not speaking as a rabbinical authority, most of whom hold that a Jew who is an apostate is still a Jew.
In an interview for Beliefnet, Orthodox Rabbi Irving Greenberg, the author of For the Sake of Heaven and Earth, said:
"But I have to recognize that there are people of ill will; there are Christian missionaries who still believe that Christianity is the only valid religion. There are Jews for Jesus who use the trappings of Judaism to bring people into a religion that teaches that Judaism is finished. Jews for Jesus are worse theologically than the mainstream of Catholicism or Protestantism, which now affirm that Judaism is a valid religion. Jews for Jesus say that it is not. They use the Jewish trappings, but de facto, they are teaching the classic Christian supersessionism--that Judaism was at best a foreshadowing of Christianity".[49]
The author of the book Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History David Klinghoffer expressed his concern in The Jewish Journal: "When Jews accept Jesus, they marry other Christians or their children do, thus disappearing into the Christian population."[25]
Concerning Christian-Jewish reconciliation and Christian missions to the Jews, Emil Fackenheim wrote:
"... Except in relations with Christians, the Christ of Christianity is not a Jewish issue. There simply can be no dialogue worthy of the name unless Christians accept — nay, treasure — the fact that Jews through the two millennia of Christianity have had an agenda of their own. There can be no Jewish-Christian dialogue worthy of the name unless one Christian activity is abandoned, missions to the Jews. It must be abandoned, moreover, not as a temporary strategy but in principle, as a bimillennial theological mistake. The cost of that mistake in Christian love and Jewish blood one hesitates to contemplate. ... A post-Holocaust Jew can still view Christian attempts to convert Jews as sincere and well intended. But even as such they are no longer acceptable: They have become attempts to do in one way what Hitler did in another."[50]
[edit] Outreach Judaism
Main article: Outreach Judaism
Outreach Judaism, is an international organization that responds directly to the issues raised by missionaries and cults, by exploring Judaism in contradistinction to fundamentalist Christianity.
The organization was founded by Rabbi Tovia Singer. Rabbi Singer's program aims to provide educational resources to individuals targeted by organizations such as Jews for Jesus. As a world renowned public speaker and as one of the top counter-missionaries in the world, Rabbi Singer addresses more than 200 audiences a year. He is the author of the book and accompanying audiotape series entitled Let's Get Biblical.
[edit] Jews for Judaism
Main article: Jews for Judaism
Jews for Judaism, established by Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz in 1985, is the largest Counter-Missionary organization in existence.[51] The name Jews for Judaism is a deliberate parody of Jews for Jesus, as Jews for Jesus is one of the primary missionary organizations that Jews for Judaism was founded to counter.
http://jewsforjudaism.com/jewsforjudaism
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/
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Jews have had quite enough of the attempts to convert us by Muslims, Christians, and Communists alike. Most Christians are good folks, but anyone who seeks to convert a Jew away from Judaism should be dealt with harshly; it is a serious, unforgivable transgression in the eyes of Judaism.
Hitler thought he was doing good things too. So did Stalin. So do Mohammedans.
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why the celebration ?
He founded an organization that was dedicated to getting Jews to leave Judaism.
And ?
Thats what Christians do. Evangelize.
Was he some far left-wing nut, or am i missing something.
You have heard of J4J? They try to make dumb Jews believe that Jesus was the Jewish messiah..They attempt to continue to practice the Mitzvahs, but they accept the false messiah as their savior... These people are the most wicked vile pieces of human drek because they attack our weak and unlearned Jews, just like Amalek did...
I hope that J4J is swallowed up by the earth like the followers of Korach...
I assumed you'd feel about them the way you feel about liberal Jews....always holding out hope that they would do teshuvah.
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why the celebration ?
He founded an organization that was dedicated to getting Jews to leave Judaism.
And ?
Thats what Christians do. Evangelize.
Was he some far left-wing nut, or am i missing something.
You have heard of J4J? They try to make dumb Jews believe that Jesus was the Jewish messiah..They attempt to continue to practice the Mitzvahs, but they accept the false messiah as their savior... These people are the most wicked vile pieces of human drek because they attack our weak and unlearned Jews, just like Amalek did...
I hope that J4J is swallowed up by the earth like the followers of Korach...
I assumed you'd feel about them the way you feel about liberal Jews....always holding out hope that they would do teshuvah.
Yes, there is always hope for those who were duped by the charlatans... But the Charlatans themselves are the ones I hope the earth swallows, like the followers of Korach...
Here is an awesome story from Aish.com which they posted recently:
http://www.aish.com/sp/so/93663419.html
It is about a couple, a Jewish woman who converted out and a man who had a long journey and ended up being Torah observant Jews who now live in Israel... It is stories like this which give me hope, and the ability to look past the Jews current failings toward their eventual redemption.
Penina Taylor is a woman with a mission – to fight missionaries. She's an expert in the field. She knows their tactics and understands their philosophy, because, prior to her commitment to a Jewish life, Penina's greatest passion was to convert Jews to Christianity.
Penina grew up in a single-parent home. Her Jewish mother struggled to make ends meet while studying to become a registered nurse. Left on her own much of the day, she became the object of abuse. Traumatized and miserable, she fell in with the "wrong crowd." It wasn't long before she was smoking and drinking, and failing school. "I was tumbling head over heels straight into the abyss," Penina explains. "I had lots of existential questions, but absolutely no answers."
At age 15, Penina talked with one of her schoolmates about the direction her life was taking. Her friend spoke about putting her trust in God and developing a relationship with Jesus. "The strength of her belief resonated with me. I was searching for something deeper than myself, and this was the answer."
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wait..didn't we curse this guy to die of cancer? :dance:
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Baruch Hashem this piece of human excrement has left this world. This organization will burn in gehinnom for leading all the Jews astray to follow a foreign G-d. All missionaries should be shot on sight!
Shot on sight ? Thats kind of insane wouldnt you say.
If someone hates a Jew just for being Jewish, they are called a Nazi. But a Christian should be shot on sight just for being Christian ? Quite the double standard, id say.
What about freedom of religion and free will ? Missionaries arent forcing anyone to do anything. I assume you're not a communist.
This is not 'Hating Christians', as you put it...
One who turns a Jew away from G-d is a cursed person, and worthy of nothing but contempt.
This is one reason Jews and Christians have such a hard time getting along. Your religion is one which prosetylizes while Judaism does not attempt to convert anyone... Only those who want to convert are allowed the chance to do so. We don't force G-d down anyones throught, at the tip of a sword, or threaten to burn them at stakes, as so many Jews died at the hands of the Inquisitors.
I don't want to say how I feel when I hear about these cursed missionaries... Please Hashem restrain me..
PS: Freedom of religion means respecting a Jews religion and not attempting to sell him a bad apple.
We don't send 'missionaries' into places where there are non-practicing christians and attempt to get them to convert. It is a basic difference between your religion and ours. And a reason I believe Judaism is superior.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J4j
I guess in the end, we'll find out who was right and wrong. Until then you shouldnt promote killing Christians who see it differently and wanna share their views with others (including Jews). That is vicious and cruel.
You say it would be hard for us to get along, uhh yeah obviously. I am all for free speech and free will and you wanna supress it. Thats what they do in North Korea and Saudi Arabia.
Judging by ur comments, i think if you had it ur way you would tear down all the churches in Israel too. You wouldnt want that 'bad apple' influencing anyone, right.
The way i see it, you're the offensive apple. The irony is that you live in a Christian country and enjoy all the liberties that come with it, you give hypocrisy a whole new meaning.
I guess with all the Christian bashing i see around here--in this thread and others, i must be in the wrong place. And ull probably say eh, who cares its just one person but i would bet my life there are many Christians out there that wanna join JTF but get turned off by ppl like Munman, Ron Ben and other Christian haters.
To all the real freedom-loving conservatives here, take care and be well.
And death to communism, God is on our side !!
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:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:
In case some of you "Christians" on this forum forgot:
NUMBER ONE: It's not christian to be happy when someone dies. Especially someone who did no harm to you.
NUMBER TWO: Seeking converts is one of the principles of christianity, like it or not
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Judging by ur comments, i think if you had it ur way you would tear down all the churches in Israel too.
I would. When we take power in Israel, there will not be a church or mosque left standing.
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Judging by ur comments, i think if you had it ur way you would tear down all the churches in Israel too.
I would. When we take power in Israel, there will not be a church or mosque left standing.
Oh, so you'd be ok we tearing down the synogogues in the christian countries? you're real just Moshe
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Judging by ur comments, i think if you had it ur way you would tear down all the churches in Israel too.
I would. When we take power in Israel, there will not be a church or mosque left standing.
Oh, so you'd be ok we tearing down the synogogues in the christian countries? you're real just Moshe
Which countries are you talking about?
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There are many good Christians in America and other countries, but the Christians in Israel are usually either Arabs or missionaries. They're not such great people.
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There are many good Christians in America and other countries, but the Christians in Israel are usually either Arabs or missionaries. They're not such great people.
The vast majority of Arab "Christians" (and Albanian "Christians" and Tamil "Christians") are anti-Semites and 100% behind their Muslim Nazi brothers. TIME Magazine once did a "behind the scenes" look at Tiger-occupied territory in northeastern Sri Lanka. They had a photo of a Tamil "Catholic" who had portraits of Tamil shahids right next to the pictures of saints. Or think of those Lebanese and Syrian priests who dedicate sermons to Sheik Nasrallah.
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There are many good Christians in America and other countries, but the Christians in Israel are usually either Arabs or missionaries. They're not such great people.
The vast majority of Arab "Christians" (and Albanian "Christians" and Tamil "Christians") are anti-Semites and 100% behind their Muslim Nazi brothers. TIME Magazine once did a "behind the scenes" look at Tiger-occupied territory in northeastern Sri Lanka. They had a photo of a Tamil "Catholic" who had portraits of Tamil shahids right next to the pictures of saints. Or think of those Lebanese and Syrian priests who dedicate sermons to Sheik Nasrallah.
^^^^
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It is a known principle at JTF that missionaries are frowned upon. This is why Chaim celebrated the 'loss' of this shepard who lead Jews astray.
Judaism is against prosetylization. A person born a Jew has a Jewish mission. When a Christian missionary tries to poison his mind with non-Jewish scriptures it is really a desecration of G-d and his people. Maybe the poor 'soul' doesn't realize it but it is damaged when it loses its connection to the Jewish people.
I hope any Christians who are hoping to help us are understanding that we don't accept the christian messiah as the promised Moshiach. There are numerous proofs of the validity of Torah, and the fact that Moshiach has not arrived, and I will not go into it unless someone is really interested.... But let us just leave it that Judaism has a legitimate reason for not believing that your savior is the Moshiach which Hashem will send to redeem the Jewish people.
I am sorry that this saddens some of you.. But it makes me so very happy that Hashem and his promise are still living and breathing, and able to say that our belief is true, and it is why we have clung to it for all these thousands of years. Judaism is growing, by bringing back the lost Jews, by outreach Judaism and by Chabad. There are so many Jews in the Baal Teshuva movement who are learning about their Jewish roots.
Read this:
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,46071.new.html#new
http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html
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In case some of you "Christians" on this forum forgot:
NUMBER ONE: It's not christian to be happy when someone dies. Especially someone who did no harm to you.
NUMBER TWO: Seeking converts is one of the principles of christianity, like it or not
ape, I hope you're not trying to engage in religious polemics here!
Firstly, Moishe Rosen was not a Christian. He didn't follow normative Christianity. His religious blend of Jewish beliefs with Christianity is nothing more than a cult. I would actually prefer dealing with a Christian missionary in this country than with a member of "J4J". At the very least, I would know what I'm dealing with. Moishe Rosen and all of the other Moishe Rosen's are deceitful snakes who are worthy of nothing but contempt. Obviously, I shed no tears over his death.
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I would. When we take power in Israel, there will not be a church or mosque left standing.
Not necessarily true, Moshe. In a Kahanist run state, Gentiles who wish to live in Israel will be permitted to worship their religion. They will not have national rights, but they will retain their personal rights and have the status of a ger toshav (resident stranger/alien).
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Actually, this question has been asked on a past Ask JTF show. In a Kahanist Israel, people would be free to worship as long as they accept Jewish sovereignty over the land.
Now speaking of missionaries, I've read up on Iranian Jewish history, as my family is from Iran. One tactic of the missionaries in winning Muslim converts was to get them all worked up over the Jews killing Jesus. This is how they would encourage the Muslims and egg them on, to go after the Jews and harm them.
As for Christian Arabs in Israel and the Middle East, for all intents and purposes, they're pretty identical to the Muslims. There are people like Joseph Farah of Worldnetdaily.com, Brigitte Gabriel, Amil Imani, and that woman who founded Arabs For Israel, whom I respect and admire. But that's it! I wrote about this a while back in my Ask Lisa thread:
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,40952.msg431728.html#msg431728
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But from what I have read and seen of Arab Christians, they seem to identify politically, socially and racially as Arab Muslims. Many of them (with the exception of the wonderful Joseph Farah) are anti-semitic and pro-fakestinian. For example, I read an article on the AP a while back about how some Orthodox priest in Syria would light candles in his church for Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah.
Here are more examples of how these Christian Arabs are pro-Muslim terror.
Butt ugly PLO spokeswoman Hanan Ashwari, whom that disgusting news anchor Peter Jennings used to bang, is a Christian Arab. Suha Arafat used to be a Christian before converting to Islam to marry that AIDS infested Yasser Arafat. The notorious Helen Thomas, who is part of the White House press corps is also an Arab Christian of Lebanese ancestry. This ugly old crone is notoriously pro-fakestinian. She uses her position to harass the White House press people, and to spout Muslim terrorist propaganda. In one press conference, she was heard muttering "60 years of occupation."
There's also that pro-fakestinian Ralph Nader, of Lebanese ancestry, just like Helen Thomas, who has referred to the government of Israel as its military regime:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/nader.html
And he's quite cozy with Muslim terrorist front groups:
http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=13641
Then there's also the Muslim terror supporter James Zogby, who was born in the U.S. to Lebanese Catholic parents, who has called Israelis Nazis, and who equates Israel's efforts to defend herself to the Holocaust:
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=763
Note that Zogby was involved with the Arab American Anti-Discrimination Committee, which was to advance the interest of Christian Arabs:
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6173
Also, let's not forget former United States Senator James Abourezek (also born to Christian Lebanese parents). This lover of goat fornicators has gone on the record about how the big bad Israel lobby controls the U.S. government. A few years ago during the intifadah, he said flat out that the terorrist attacks would stop as soon as the "occupation" ends.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Abourezk
This pig has also allowed himself to be interviewed on Hezbollah TV:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1551.htm
There's also John Sununu Jr. and Senior, who are no friends of Israel either.
Also, let's not forget the Coptic Christians. They've been viciously persecuted by Muslims. But they're still strong anti-semites. Check out what their Pope Shenouda III had to say about Jews:
http://www.directionstoorthodoxy.org/mod/news/view.php?article_id=501&thread_style=flat&thread_style=threaded&thread_style=flat&thread_style=threaded
Quote
THE LEADER of the Coptic Church, Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria told Egyptian television last month the Western Churches were wrong to exonerate Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and criticised recent statements apologising for Christian anti-Semitism.
In an interview with Dream 2 TV broadcast on April 8, Shenouda was asked if the Coptic Church would follow the lead of the Western Christian churches. Shenouda responded that the Christian Churches had “done nothing that warrants an apology,” adding he believed the apologies were being “done for appearance’s sake.”
Asked whether Jews were “Christ-killers”, responsible for the crucifixion, Shenouda stated, “The New Testament says that they are,” and asked rhetorically whether the Vatican was “against the teachings of the New Testament?”
Shenouda stated he had banned Copts from visiting Israel for fear they will “be influenced by the Israeli media, and we will not be able to prevent this. Who knows what ideas they will return with?”
The 1988 Lambeth Conference paper, “Jews, Christians and Muslims: The Way of Dialogue” acknowledged the Church’s historical complicity in anti-Semitism. The bishops at Lambeth stated “Anti-Jewish prejudice promulgated by leaders of both Church and State has led to persecution, pogrom and finally, provided the soil in which the evil weed of Nazism was able to take rood and spread its poison.”
Under the pontificate of John Paul II, the Roman Catholic Church acknowledged its role in Jewish persecution. On his March 2000 visit to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, the Pope stated: “We hope that the Jewish people will acknowledge that the Church utterly condemns anti-Semitism and every form of racism as being altogether opposed to the principles of Christianity.”
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Now I'm going to be very blunt here. I hate these Helen Thomas/James Abourezek types with a passion. They are just as bad as Muslim terrorists, since they basically as their mouthpieces. So naturally, anyone who helps and harbors Muslim terrorists will be dealt with very harshly in a Kahanist Israel.
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Actually, this question has been asked on a past Ask JTF show. In a Kahanist Israel, people would be free to worship as they wish. However, they would have to accept that Israeli sovereignty over the land.
I hope that no Idolatry will be permitted. I am of the belief that Kahanism will lead to the Moshiachs arrival. If this is the case, then Moshe is correct... There will only be the religion of Hashem, all others will eventually realize the truth of the Torah. At least according to the Jewish scriptures.
But of course I don't believe that the Christian sites should be destroyed nor the existing non-Missionary Christians be upset in any way.
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So this thread has gone from praising the death of a brother that you think is in err and has eroded all the way to talking about tearing down synagogues in Christian nations?? You folks are no better than the vigilantes during the pograms and inquisitions. Why don't you go to the hardware store, get some rope and start hanging Christians.
You talk about them evangelizing in the streets but where are our evangelists? I don't think I've ever seen a Jew standing on a street corner telling people that they need to get right with ha Shem. We're supposed to be a light to the goyim but we keep our lights in our homes and shuls and we don't do ANYTHING to tell people why they should adhere to Torah and such.
You guys constantly harp on communists but you're acting just like them. Don't they bellyache about being the have-nots and they want something for nothing??? Christians are going out and doing what their leader told them to do. We just sit around bitching and moaning that things aren't fair and that we're not getting a piece of the spiritual pie.
Oh we love Christians because they love Israel and they're just about the only friends that we have left in this whole damn world, and what do we do? We mock them and insult them and then just because a few of them do something bad then they're all bad??? Gee, where have I heard that before? Oh, I remember, the thing about all Jews being bad because of the Bernie Madoffs of this world and how we supposedly poison wells and sacrifice goy children. Damnit it folks, if you live in a glass house then damn sure don't throw stones.
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for some reason I just knew this thread was going to turn into fighting.... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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NUMBER TWO: Seeking converts is one of the principles of christianity, like it or not
I am an Orthodox Christian and I am not involved in converting people.
We just do not do that.
We do believe that Orthodoxy is the true religion, but you still have to respect people's free will. If they do not want to convert, that is no problem. If someone wants to become Orthodox, he will come to us and we do not have to come to him.
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78, seems like he lived too long, he should have been dealt with as soon as he floated his institution.
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Lisa is right. Most of these Arab "Christians" are disgusting animals.
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So this thread has gone from praising the death of a brother that you think is in err and has eroded all the way to talking about tearing down synagogues in Christian nations?? You folks are no better than the vigilantes during the pograms and inquisitions. Why don't you go to the hardware store, get some rope and start hanging Christians.
You talk about them evangelizing in the streets but where are our evangelists? I don't think I've ever seen a Jew standing on a street corner telling people that they need to get right with ha Shem. We're supposed to be a light to the goyim but we keep our lights in our homes and shuls and we don't do ANYTHING to tell people why they should adhere to Torah and such.
You guys constantly harp on communists but you're acting just like them. Don't they bellyache about being the have-nots and they want something for nothing??? Christians are going out and doing what their leader told them to do. We just sit around bitching and moaning that things aren't fair and that we're not getting a piece of the spiritual pie.
Oh we love Christians because they love Israel and they're just about the only friends that we have left in this whole damn world, and what do we do? We mock them and insult them and then just because a few of them do something bad then they're all bad??? Gee, where have I heard that before? Oh, I remember, the thing about all Jews being bad because of the Bernie Madoffs of this world and how we supposedly poison wells and sacrifice goy children. Damnit it folks, if you live in a glass house then damn sure don't throw stones.
Ummm... Jews don't evangelize because it is not a Jewish thing to do... That is why missionaries are so insidious.
Also the person and the people mentioned in this thread are Jewish, being led astray by a Jew... J4J is an accursed organization and nothing said here will change that.
Nobody has attacked Christians nor said that their sites should be torn down. It is simply the belief that in messianic times only the Temple will stand and that will be the site of all nations worship of Hashem. That is simple Jewish belief. If you don't believe it fine with me.
And there are Jewish outreach groups all over the world, they are known as Chabad. They are doing an excellent job of bringing in the lost Jews. This is one of the main reasons Chabad gets a lot of my charity money..
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NUMBER TWO: Seeking converts is one of the principles of christianity, like it or not
I am an Orthodox Christian and I am not involved in converting people.
We just do not do that.
We do believe that Orthodoxy is the true religion, but you still have to respect people's free will. If they do not want to convert, that is no problem. If someone wants to become Orthodox, he will come to us and we do not have to come to him.
And We are cool with that.
J4J are really praying on people and use deceit and trickery to convert Jews only. That is deplorable.
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Judging by ur comments, i think if you had it ur way you would tear down all the churches in Israel too.
I would. When we take power in Israel, there will not be a church or mosque left standing.
Then you speak only for yourself.
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>>Jews for Jesus founder Moishe Rosen dead at 78<<
Horrible organisation. If he thought that he had some novel ideas then he could have approached only to the muslamics and formed MfJ and converted only the muslamics and attempted to save them, I mean if they could be saved and if he could be saved.
Anyhow his removal from the periscope scene has presented his remnant disciples with a golden rare opportunity to return back to their origin with all due procedures applied.
;D
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Missionary organisations like these think that unconverted Jews(Jews who dont convert to Messianic or J4J) will burn in hell for eternity and that the extermination of most Israeli Jews will be a necessary prelude to their eagerly anticipated 'Second Coming' of Jesus
Evangelists use sophistry and subterfuge and claim that they too support Israel, but this is only for their hidden agenda. They want their hold on religious places in Israel, for which they will even collude with Islamists when need arises.
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NUMBER TWO: Seeking converts is one of the principles of christianity, like it or not
I am an Orthodox Christian and I am not involved in converting people.
We just do not do that.
We do believe that Orthodoxy is the true religion, but you still have to respect people's free will. If they do not want to convert, that is no problem. If someone wants to become Orthodox, he will come to us and we do not have to come to him.
↑ What he said.
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i just have a tattoo of a cross on my arm and thats it. I use to believe in being preachy, but realised it actually put people off. So the tattoo is there if people want to discuss it, but other than that, i very very rarely mention my religous beliefs.
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Jews for Jesus are worse then any other group that tries to evangelize Jews because they are dishonest.Other groups are upfront about their evangelistic intentions
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why are we fighting each other again? This Nazi dies of cancer after we prayed for it and now we fight each other to celebrate. Praised be Hashem for removing this filth from our world and into Hell.
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Jews for Jesus are worse than any other group that tries to evangelize Jews because they are dishonest.Other groups are upfront about their evangelistic intentions
They must be creating confusions. Years ago when I first read the name of this organisation, I thought that it was some group within the Jews.
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why are we fighting each other again? This Nazi dies of cancer after we prayed for it and now we fight each other to celebrate. Praised be Hashem for removing this filth from our world and into Hell.
Infighting on this matter is not desired.
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As for mosques and churches in Israel, I don't think there are that many people living in Israel who worship in mosques or churches who would accept Jewish sovereignty. Also, isn't a ger toshav a noahide by definition?
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Muman, where is your severe condemnation for left wing creepy Jews that are filled with Marxist demonic garbage?
Indeed I dont see you half as passionate about burying people that want to destroy America, completely, and obliterate Israel off of the map.
UNTIL there is a STERN rebuke for those destroyers that will ****NEVER*** make Teshuvah, repentance or whatever, this thread is a SHAM.
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why are we fighting each other again? This Nazi dies of cancer after we prayed for it and now we fight each other to celebrate. Praised be Hashem for removing this filth from our world and into Hell.
Well said. Thank You, Dr. Dan.
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i just have a tattoo of a cross on my arm and thats it. I use to believe in being preachy, but realised it actually put people off. So the tattoo is there if people want to discuss it, but other than that, i very very rarely mention my religous beliefs.
What you don't even have a Jesus fish in your car ? What sort of Christian are you ?!
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This is why I think Gd will frustrate is Chose One's for years to come and always give us enemies and never allow us to complete defeat them.. Our worst enemies are ourselves...and even with Kahanist Jews and Gentiles, each other...So friggin ridiculous.
I think it's time for some of the moderators to lock a few threads that involve personal attacks...
why are we fighting each other again? This Nazi dies of cancer after we prayed for it and now we fight each other to celebrate. Praised be Hashem for removing this filth from our world and into Hell.
Well said. Thank You, Dr. Dan.
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Like one guy above mentioned, my opinion is obvious. NO religion should be allowed in the Holy Land except for Torah Judaism, all Gentiles (Gerei Toshav) who will be permitted to live here should be Noahides only.
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Like one guy above mentioned, my opinion is obvious. NO religion should be allowed in the Holy Land except for Torah Judaism, all Gentiles (Gerei Toshav) who will be permitted to live here should be Noahides only.
And you're the same person who would be jumping up and down hollering "anti-semites, anti-semites !" if Judaism was banned in America. The hypocrisy is absolutely mind-boggling.
This place is DRENCHED with Commies.
See ya, my friend.
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Like one guy above mentioned, my opinion is obvious. NO religion should be allowed in the Holy Land except for Torah Judaism, all Gentiles (Gerei Toshav) who will be permitted to live here should be Noahides only.
And you're the same person who would be jumping up and down hollering "anti-semites, anti-semites !" if Judaism was banned in America. The hypocrisy is absolutely mind-boggling.
This place is DRENCHED with Commies.
See ya, my friend.
Jews shouldn't be in America in the first place, why am I a hypocrite?
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Like one guy above mentioned, my opinion is obvious. NO religion should be allowed in the Holy Land except for Torah Judaism, all Gentiles (Gerei Toshav) who will be permitted to live here should be Noahides only.
And you're the same person who would be jumping up and down hollering "anti-semites, anti-semites !" if Judaism was banned in America. The hypocrisy is absolutely mind-boggling.
This place is DRENCHED with Commies.
See ya, my friend.
Shiptar,
My friend Ron Ben Michael is only expressing the long desired goal of the Jewish religion. Our religions have very different views of the end of days... Our view is that the entire world will accept Hashem and the Jewish people as the one true religion. I do not think he is out of place stating that here.
I hope that this is a known difference between the Jewish faith and the Christian one. There is no point in whitewashing this fact. As someone here pointed out, we will know who is right when the Moshiach arrives..
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Like one guy above mentioned, my opinion is obvious. NO religion should be allowed in the Holy Land except for Torah Judaism, all Gentiles (Gerei Toshav) who will be permitted to live here should be Noahides only.
And you're the same person who would be jumping up and down hollering "anti-semites, anti-semites !" if Judaism was banned in America. The hypocrisy is absolutely mind-boggling.
This place is DRENCHED with Commies.
See ya, my friend.
Shiptar,
My friend Ron Ben Michael is only expressing the long desired goal of the Jewish religion. Our religions have very different views of the end of days... Our view is that the entire world will accept Hashem and the Jewish people as the one true religion. I do not think he is out of place stating that here.
I hope that this is a known difference between the Jewish faith and the Christian one. There is no point in whitewashing this fact. As someone here pointed out, we will know who is right when the Moshiach arrives..
And the Torah of HaShem will Reign Supreme...
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About the topic itself, Moishe Rosen is worse than the Judenrat, spiritual Holocaust is WORSE than physical Holocaust.
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What's with the arguing? We all know there are key points of faith we disagree with, that's old news and is settled. The Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Jews believe the Messiah is yet to come. So? What the Christians believe does not bother me, and what the Jews believe shouldn't bother the Christians, be strong in your faith and carry on.
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Yes, my point exactly.
Good point. !!!!!
Let us not argue, pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaasssssssseeeeeeeee????????????
:(
What's with the arguing? We all know there are key points of faith we disagree with, that's old news and is settled. The Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Jews believe the Messiah is yet to come. So? What the Christians believe does not bother me, and what the Jews believe shouldn't bother the Christians, be strong in your faith and carry on.
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NO actually, Shiptar, Jews should all live in Israel...and gentiles should bless the Jews because "those who bless thee will be blessed and those you curse you will be cursed."
Like one guy above mentioned, my opinion is obvious. NO religion should be allowed in the Holy Land except for Torah Judaism, all Gentiles (Gerei Toshav) who will be permitted to live here should be Noahides only.
And you're the same person who would be jumping up and down hollering "anti-semites, anti-semites !" if Judaism was banned in America. The hypocrisy is absolutely mind-boggling.
This place is DRENCHED with Commies.
See ya, my friend.
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I don't like the way this thread has turned out.
Jews are against missionizing for very good reasons. In the past, suggestions to Jews to "save their souls" were usually followed by brute force if Jews wanted to stay Jewish. The same thing can also be said of other non-Christian groups who came in contact with explorers and their missionary minions. In today's more politically correct age, missionaries stick with deception, head games, and/or stalking.
Now the purpose of Israel is to be a Jewish ethnostate for Jews where they can freely practice and live according to Judaism. The Bible predicted that Jews would one day return to their land, and it has come true. It is ONE tiny pipsqueak country in a world where there are dozens of Christian and Muslim countries. There are billions of Muslims and Christians in this world. Unfortunately, the same can't be said of Jews. And to sum it up, whenever a Jew dies, or if he leaves the Jewish religion, that's still one less Jew in the world. So of course JTF will vehemently oppose anyone who tries to get Jews to abandon Judaism, even more so when it's one of our own.
Regarding Ron Ben Michael and Muman's posts, I just want to make something clear. According to Judaism, when Messiah comes, people will all want to know and worship G-d. In such a scenario, they'll either become Jewish or Noahides. Christians, from what I understand, believe that Jesus will come a second time, at which point everyone will become Christians.
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I agree with Lisa. Everyone should be allowed to worship freely in whatever country they reside, free from any and all persecution. When Jews start having double standards like this we sound like our enemies. That said this man did not do well in this world to pick on a beleagured people in the name of helping those same said people
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NO actually, Shiptar, Jews should all live in Israel...and gentiles should bless the Jews because "those who bless thee will be blessed and those you curse you will be cursed."
Like one guy above mentioned, my opinion is obvious. NO religion should be allowed in the Holy Land except for Torah Judaism, all Gentiles (Gerei Toshav) who will be permitted to live here should be Noahides only.
And you're the same person who would be jumping up and down hollering "anti-semites, anti-semites !" if Judaism was banned in America. The hypocrisy is absolutely mind-boggling.
This place is DRENCHED with Commies.
See ya, my friend.
Dr. Dan,
I dont think it's reasonable to expect anyone to bless another group of people if the individual does not feel respected by those same said people. Yes, what is said in Genesis is true for all Bible believers, but common sense says that if a person perceives you as not being respectful of them, then as a matter of course, they will not be respectful of you.
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I agree with Lisa. Everyone should be allowed to worship freely in whatever country they reside, free from any and all persecution. When Jews start having double standards like this we sound like our enemies. That said this man did not do well in this world to pick on a beleagured people in the name of helping those same said people
But a Jew who doesn't look forward to the coming of Moshiach is considered as if he were an apikoris.
There will be a time when anyone can worship in Israel... But if we truly believe that Moshiach is coming we need to make it clear that there will be no idolatry and no other G-ds worshipped in Israel when he comes...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/The-13-Principles.htm
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Muman,
I have seen others use the term Apikoros on here. My limited understanding of this term is that it applies to Jews who leave Judaism or at least depart from the orthodox position. I see the first part of your response as contradicting the second. If we will "allow for anyone to worship in Israel," then how can we say that we will not tolerate Idol worship? This negates the first premise. Also who defines Idol worship? Catholics do not perceive themselves as Idol worshippers, but non-Catholics might. Catholics say devotional prayers to Jesus' mother, Mary, often in front of a statuary, yet they do not deem this idol worship, so who becomes the arbiter of this?
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Muman,
I have seen others use the term Apikoros on here. My limited understanding of this term is that it applies to Jews who leave Judaism or at least depart from the orthodox position. I see the first part of your response as contradicting the second. If we will "allow for anyone to worship in Israel," then how can we say that we will not tolerate Idol worship? This negates the first premise. Also who defines Idol worship? Catholics do not perceive themselves as Idol worshippers, but non-Catholics might. Catholics say devotional prayers to Jesus' mother, Mary, often in front of a statuary, yet they do not deem this idol worship, so who becomes the arbiter of this?
If you would like we can discuss this in PM. I am afraid what I will say will upset our righteous non-Jewish members. I do not seek to do this.
An apikoris is a Jew who denies the basic tenets of the faith, i.e. the UNITY of Hashem, the concept of reward & punishment, resurrection of the dead, and the coming of moshiach..
But the Jewish faith is clear what Idolatry is.. It is ascribing any power to something which is not Hashem, i.e. the sun, the moon, the stars, a man or woman, etc. Anything corporeal is considered forbidden to worship or ascribe the power which Hashems gives it.
I stated that there will be a time before the coming of Moshiach when everyone will be able to do whatever they want in Israel. I personally pray that Moshiach comes speedily and in my lifetime. Once he has arrived a new paradigm will begin and there will be no desire to worship anything but Hashem himself. This will be a wonderful time for humanity, as the prophets have told, a time when there will be no war, no hunger, no disease, and even no death. All one has to do is to worship only the Creator of the Universe, and the one who freed the Jewish people from the bondage of Egypt. It is difficult to explain this without upsetting the other religions, but it is a time which will be like ecstasy...
http://www.moshiach.com/action/morality/idolatry.php
PART ONE: Definition of idolatry
1. The essence of the Seven Universal Laws is the prohibition against idolatry. One who worships another deity besides the Creator denies the essence of religion and rejects the entirety of the Seven Universal Laws. But one who guards himself against idolatry demonstrates belief in G-d and affirms the entirety of the Seven Universal Laws.[1]
2. The commandment prohibiting idolatry teaches that one should serve no created thing ‑ no angel, no plant, no star, nothing of the four fundamentals, earth, water, fire, and air, nor anything that is formulated from them. Even if the worshiper knows that G-d is the Supreme Being and worships creation as a way of glorifying G-d's greatness and His ability to create great beings and things, nevertheless this is idol worship.[2]
3. A person may ponder the heavenly spheres and observe that they do not die like other things and that it is therefore proper to bow down to them and serve them. To do this is to place them between oneself and the Creator. For although G-d may have assigned these celestial beings certain roles in the conduct of the world, nevertheless, man's responsibilities are to G-d and not to G-d's messengers. This, in fact, is how idolatry came to exist in the world. The generations that lived immediately after Adam recognized that G-d had created magnificent heavenly beings, the sun to rule by day and the moon to rule by night. And these people began to honor G-d's exalted messengers. Soon it was forgotten that these messengers had been appointed by the Creator, and the sun and the moon began to be honored for their own greatness. This devolved to the worship of these creations as deities themselves without awareness of the G-d that had created them.[3]
4. Although there are opinions which state that the Children of Noah transgress the prohibition of idolatry from the moment they make an idol, the final law is that the transgression does not come into effect until a person actually worships or serves the idol.[4]
5. According to many authorities, a Noahide is not warned about the concept of "partnership with G-d."[5] The concept of partnership is the acknowledgment of the existence of the G-d of Israel in combination with the belief in the possibility and existence of a deity (independent will) other than G-d. So long as ascribing power to a deity other than the Creator remains conceptual, it is permissible to the Children of Noah according to many authorities[6]. But worship of this independent being is clearly idolatry. The danger of the concept of partnership is that it frees people to act in accord with nonexistent gods and opens a doorway to actual idolatry. Most recent authorities agree that Children of Noah are forbidden to believe in a partnership. But even according to these, the Children of Noah are permitted to swear by the name of an idol in combination with G-d (to swear by the Lord of Hosts and a Hindu deity, for example).
6. The Children of Noah are not commanded to sanctify G-d's Name by refusing to bow to an idol in the face of a threat to their lives.[7] And there is a dispute whether the Children of Noah are even allowed to choose to lay down their lives in this manner, since they are not commanded to do so.[8] However, since the Children of Noah may perform any of the 613 Commandments of the Torah to receive reward (with the notable exceptions found in the previous chapter), then it would follow that the Noahide may choose to lay down his life for the sanctification of G-d's name rather than bow to an idol, even though not commanded to do so.
7. Many books have been written by idol worshipers concerning the nature of their idolatry, the service, procedures, and laws. One should not read these books at all, nor should one think about them nor speak of them. Even studying the formation of an idolatrous figure or asking how something is served without having the intention of serving it might cause one to be led to engage in idolatrous practices.[9]
8. Anyone who acknowledges that an idolatrous religion is true, even though he does not serve the idol, reviles the mighty and exalted Name of G-d.[10]
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why the celebration ?
He founded an organization that was dedicated to getting Jews to leave Judaism.
And ?
Thats what Christians do. Evangelize.
Was he some far left-wing nut, or am i missing something.
Keep in mind that just because he was a traitor to his Jewish identity doesn't mean that he was a loyal Christian. His goal was not to truly follow Christianity but to destroy Jewish faith.
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בס''ד
Baruch Hashem!
If he thought prostate cancer was rough, that is nothing compared to his current problems in the next world. He is in a very warm place, and he will be staying there forever.
Everytime I see this I am stitches, picturing Chaim
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In case some of you "Christians" on this forum forgot:
NUMBER ONE: It's not christian to be happy when someone dies. Especially someone who did no harm to you.
NUMBER TWO: Seeking converts is one of the principles of christianity, like it or not
ape, I hope you're not trying to engage in religious polemics here!
Firstly, Moishe Rosen was not a Christian. He didn't follow normative Christianity. His religious blend of Jewish beliefs with Christianity is nothing more than a cult. I would actually prefer dealing with a Christian missionary in this country than with a member of "J4J". At the very least, I would know what I'm dealing with. Moishe Rosen and all of the other Moishe Rosen's are deceitful snakes who are worthy of nothing but contempt. Obviously, I shed no tears over his death.
I personally never liked Moishe Rosen. He caused more damage than good to the cause of Christianity. Even Jesus would have disapproved his activities. I don't like J4J specifically targeting Jews and in my analysis J4J is not even following the Christian Bible properly.