Ron, I agree these images are shocking and I certainly do not support this brutal eviction (nor any eviction of Jews from their land, whether brutal or not...). However, when you say these soldiers are SS and worse than Nazis...If they were SS (or Muslim Nazis), there would not have remained anyone alive there, they would have shot everyone with machine gun. So I don't think we can equate these Israeli soldiers with Nazis.
I don't like using terms such as pogrom and holocaust loosely
The obvious difference is that one involved mass murder and slavery. I had a family friend who had an arm shot off in the camps. I had a cousin who spent four years in the camps who lived the rest of his life with the numbers on his arms. They were not even among the six million slaughtered by the Nazi beasts. As bad as Amona was, it was not in that category.I don't like using terms such as pogrom and holocaust loosely
Why not? what's the difference between a Jew doing that and a Gentile doing that?
The obvious difference is that one involved mass murder and slavery. I had a family friend who had an arm shot off in the camps. I had a cousin who spent four years in the camps who lived the rest of his life with the numbers on his arms. They were not even among the six million slaughtered by the Nazi beasts. As bad as Amona was, it was not in that category.I don't like using terms such as pogrom and holocaust loosely
Why not? what's the difference between a Jew doing that and a Gentile doing that?
Ron, I agree these images are shocking and I certainly do not support this brutal eviction (nor any eviction of Jews from their land, whether brutal or not...). However, when you say these soldiers are SS and worse than Nazis...If they were SS (or Muslim Nazis), there would not have remained anyone alive there, they would have shot everyone with machine gun. So I don't think we can equate these Israeli soldiers with Nazis.
A traitor is always worse than an enemy. We can't expect anything from an enemy but from a fellow Jew...
The obvious difference is that one involved mass murder and slavery. I had a family friend who had an arm shot off in the camps. I had a cousin who spent four years in the camps who lived the rest of his life with the numbers on his arms. They were not even among the six million slaughtered by the Nazi beasts. As bad as Amona was, it was not in that category.I don't like using terms such as pogrom and holocaust loosely
Why not? what's the difference between a Jew doing that and a Gentile doing that?
Before there were camps there were deportations and brutal evictions.
This could be exactly the type of deportation that preceded sending Jews to concentration camps. Haven't you seen the films where Jews are rounded up and put into cattle cars during the liquidation of ghettos?
The Israeli govt knows that putting Jews into concentration camps after expelling them would be a public relations nightmare, so instead, they put them into run-down trailer parks called "temporary housing" and they are hoping they will die there of medical maladies, depression, and other afflictions brought on by their ruined lives. Aside from rampant unemployment, medical affliction and depression rates are through the roof with former gush katif expellees.
To round up Jews for expulsion or murder is a nazi strategy. This time Jews carried it out against other Jewish victims.
The obvious difference is that one involved mass murder and slavery. I had a family friend who had an arm shot off in the camps. I had a cousin who spent four years in the camps who lived the rest of his life with the numbers on his arms. They were not even among the six million slaughtered by the Nazi beasts. As bad as Amona was, it was not in that category.I don't like using terms such as pogrom and holocaust loosely
Why not? what's the difference between a Jew doing that and a Gentile doing that?
Before there were camps there were deportations and brutal evictions.
This could be exactly the type of deportation that preceded sending Jews to concentration camps. Haven't you seen the films where Jews are rounded up and put into cattle cars during the liquidation of ghettos?
The Israeli govt knows that putting Jews into concentration camps after expelling them would be a public relations nightmare, so instead, they put them into run-down trailer parks called "temporary housing" and they are hoping they will die there of medical maladies, depression, and other afflictions brought on by their ruined lives. Aside from rampant unemployment, medical affliction and depression rates are through the roof with former gush katif expellees.
To round up Jews for expulsion or murder is a nazi strategy. This time Jews carried it out against other Jewish victims.
I am not going to defend the Israeli government in its evictions of Jews but this is nonsense. The Jews of Gush Katif were not put onto cattle cars.
There is no epidemic of death among them. When you see something that is evil it should just be shown to be evil on its merits. To vastly exagerate does not help our case. Doing this cheapens the evil of the holocaust and pogroms which was extreme.
Btw, did you watch the videos of Amona? If not as a comparison to nazis, how would you describe those indiscriminate beatings, disproportionate use of force, and tramplings employed by the expulsion forces on these Jews?
Btw, did you watch the videos of Amona? If not as a comparison to nazis, how would you describe those indiscriminate beatings, disproportionate use of force, and tramplings employed by the expulsion forces on these Jews?
This is the most horendous video I have ever seen. Those police were cracking open Jewish heads with the clubs. I was hoping that somebody would kill those police
Btw, did you watch the videos of Amona? If not as a comparison to nazis, how would you describe those indiscriminate beatings, disproportionate use of force, and tramplings employed by the expulsion forces on these Jews?
In every society there are governmental abuses of authority. This does not make Israel a Nazi government any more than we were a Nazi government in the 1960s when civil rights marchers were assaulted by police. Again you need to think about what Nazis really was before you throw around such terms loosely.
I will stop short of calling Israeli actions against the Jews a nazi act... I believe that what was done was criminally wrong but it doesn't rise to as disgusting a level as the Nazis who constructed camps just for the purpose of extermination of Jews. I believe that the police in Amona did not intend on killing the Jews, just to forcefully remove them from their homes.
I hope that all officers involved will have catastrophe in their lives...
I will stop short of calling Israeli actions against the Jews a nazi act... I believe that what was done was criminally wrong but it doesn't rise to as disgusting a level as the Nazis who constructed camps just for the purpose of extermination of Jews. I believe that the police in Amona did not intend on killing the Jews, just to forcefully remove them from their homes.
I hope that all officers involved will have catastrophe in their lives...
I will stop short of calling Israeli actions against the Jews a nazi act... I believe that what was done was criminally wrong but it doesn't rise to as disgusting a level as the Nazis who constructed camps just for the purpose of extermination of Jews. I believe that the police in Amona did not intend on killing the Jews, just to forcefully remove them from their homes.
I hope that all officers involved will have catastrophe in their lives...
Beatings of Jews and destroying their lives.... to me that classifies on the scale of Nazi acts, even if it's not the same as gas chambers. It's simply the step right before it.
I will stop short of calling Israeli actions against the Jews a nazi act... I believe that what was done was criminally wrong but it doesn't rise to as disgusting a level as the Nazis who constructed camps just for the purpose of extermination of Jews. I believe that the police in Amona did not intend on killing the Jews, just to forcefully remove them from their homes.
I hope that all officers involved will have catastrophe in their lives...
Beatings of Jews and destroying their lives.... to me that classifies on the scale of Nazi acts, even if it's not the same as gas chambers. It's simply the step right before it.
Absolutely! It is a Nazi campaign! No two ways about it. Those police were out to inflict permanent bodily damage to those Jews. The Nazis beat the Jews the same way. The Israeli government would have shot the Jews on site if they could get away with it.
Guys you need to understand something. There is a reason you use the word Nazi here. Because Nazis represent the absolute worst example of human cruelty and brutality in human history. Nazis are the absolute outlier. They are the standard. The Nazi atrocities are still remembered 65 years after they fell from power. They might be remember a thousand years from now.
As hideous as Amona was, will anyone remember it 65 years from now? Not likely. Even five years later it is hardly remembered. The Nazi atrocities will be remembered in a thousand years if mankind still has the ability to remember history.
Are you really trying to tell me that the govt's agenda did not include destroying the lives of these Jews?
Guys you need to understand something. There is a reason you use the word Nazi here. Because Nazis represent the absolute worst example of human cruelty and brutality in human history. Nazis are the absolute outlier. They are the standard. The Nazi atrocities are still remembered 65 years after they fell from power. They might be remember a thousand years from now.
As hideous as Amona was, will anyone remember it 65 years from now? Not likely. Even five years later it is hardly remembered. The Nazi atrocities will be remembered in a thousand years if mankind still has the ability to remember history.
Whether people remember something or not does not determine if it's evil or what type of act it was or how grave.
There were even people at the time Amona happened who had no idea it occurred or didn't even care that it did. That does not make it any less evil. This is like saying that if assimilated and well-connected Jews hadn't built holocaust museums and stoked the fires of guilt for the Europeans making it very memorable and well-known for everyone, that therefore the Nazi acts wouldn't have been as bad since no one remembers or less people care. Come on.
Guys you need to understand something. There is a reason you use the word Nazi here. Because Nazis represent the absolute worst example of human cruelty and brutality in human history. Nazis are the absolute outlier. They are the standard. The Nazi atrocities are still remembered 65 years after they fell from power. They might be remember a thousand years from now.
As hideous as Amona was, will anyone remember it 65 years from now? Not likely. Even five years later it is hardly remembered. The Nazi atrocities will be remembered in a thousand years if mankind still has the ability to remember history.
Whether people remember something or not does not determine if it's evil or what type of act it was or how grave.
There were even people at the time Amona happened who had no idea it occurred or didn't even care that it did. That does not make it any less evil. This is like saying that if assimilated and well-connected Jews hadn't built holocaust museums and stoked the fires of guilt for the Europeans making it very memorable and well-known for everyone, that therefore the Nazi acts wouldn't have been as bad since no one remembers or less people care. Come on.
You are totally missing the point. The reason the Nazi holocaust is remembered is because of its scope, cruelty, mechanization and brutality. Gush Katif and Amona were both hideous but were not of that scope.
Did the govt brutally expel civil rights marchers from their homes? How is that a comparison?<<
They sicked attack dogs on them, turned high powered firehoses on them, arrested them, etc. etc. It was the brutality of such attacks that brought the Federal Government into the picture.
Try a different criteria because that is not a satisfactory explanation to make a distinction with nazi atrocity<<
I think if you think it through you will see my point. Was Amona or Gush Katif an attempt to kill millions of Jews, to wipe us off the face of the Earth? Of course not. And as hideous as Amona was nobody died there. How you can equate this with the Holocaust is beyond me.
Try a different criteria because that is not a satisfactory explanation to make a distinction with nazi atrocity<<
I think if you think it through you will see my point. Was Amona or Gush Katif an attempt to kill millions of Jews, to wipe us off the face of the Earth? Of course not. And as hideous as Amona was nobody died there. How you can equate this with the Holocaust is beyond me.
Once again, there is a scale. This was on a smaller scale. But the same nature of attack. Similar to the liquidation/expulsion of ONE ghetto. They didn't all happen at once. Yet those acts were evil nazi atrocities. And like I've already said, gas chambers and mass murder is on the extreme of the nazi scale. That does not mean nothing else can be called a nazi atrocity. They did many things on a range of severity but all evil. And likewise, no one is calling this "a holocaust." Yet, we are calling it a nazi atrocity. So to say, "this was not mass murder of millions of Jews" does not address the issue. That would be a good point to make if people were calling this the holocaust. But no one is.
Try a different criteria because that is not a satisfactory explanation to make a distinction with nazi atrocity<<
I think if you think it through you will see my point. Was Amona or Gush Katif an attempt to kill millions of Jews, to wipe us off the face of the Earth? Of course not. And as hideous as Amona was nobody died there. How you can equate this with the Holocaust is beyond me.
Once again, there is a scale. This was on a smaller scale. But the same nature of attack. Similar to the liquidation/expulsion of ONE ghetto. They didn't all happen at once. Yet those acts were evil nazi atrocities. And like I've already said, gas chambers and mass murder is on the extreme of the nazi scale. That does not mean nothing else can be called a nazi atrocity. They did many things on a range of severity but all evil. And likewise, no one is calling this "a holocaust." Yet, we are calling it a nazi atrocity. So to say, "this was not mass murder of millions of Jews" does not address the issue. That would be a good point to make if people were calling this the holocaust. But no one is.
This is my last comment on the subject because we are going in circles. The reason people use the term Nazi as a perjorative term is because of the Holocaust, because of the murder of six million Jews, because of the attempt to annihilate Jews from the Earth. It would probably make more sense to describe the Olmert and Sharon govenrments as Peronists than Nazis. They were corrupt dictators (although elected Democratically) who dealt brutally and wrongly with anyone who stood in their way. They were more of a petty dictator type than the most vicious in history.
If they thought they could get away with it, the Bolshevik rulers of Israel would be every bit as savage as the German Nazis. We have historical proof for this in the Altalena massacre.
Try a different criteria because that is not a satisfactory explanation to make a distinction with nazi atrocity<<
I think if you think it through you will see my point. Was Amona or Gush Katif an attempt to kill millions of Jews, to wipe us off the face of the Earth? Of course not. And as hideous as Amona was nobody died there. How you can equate this with the Holocaust is beyond me.
Once again, there is a scale. This was on a smaller scale. But the same nature of attack. Similar to the liquidation/expulsion of ONE ghetto. They didn't all happen at once. Yet those acts were evil nazi atrocities. And like I've already said, gas chambers and mass murder is on the extreme of the nazi scale. That does not mean nothing else can be called a nazi atrocity. They did many things on a range of severity but all evil. And likewise, no one is calling this "a holocaust." Yet, we are calling it a nazi atrocity. So to say, "this was not mass murder of millions of Jews" does not address the issue. That would be a good point to make if people were calling this the holocaust. But no one is.
This is my last comment on the subject because we are going in circles. The reason people use the term Nazi as a perjorative term is because of the Holocaust, because of the murder of six million Jews, because of the attempt to annihilate Jews from the Earth. It would probably make more sense to describe the Olmert and Sharon govenrments as Peronists than Nazis. They were corrupt dictators (although elected Democratically) who dealt brutally and wrongly with anyone who stood in their way. They were more of a petty dictator type than the most vicious in history.
I don't really think we're going in circles. I think I'm just starting to understand your very strange definition with this description. But it doesn't make any sense. If there was never a final solution, what the nazis did before that was also pure evil and they would also deserve a "pejorative" term for that too. I mean really, was Kristalnacht not a nazi atrocity because it wasn't an attempt to mass murder 6 million Jews? No, it certainly was a nazi atrocity even though it preceded all of that (ie the camps, the mass murder etc). An expulsion of Jews from their homes because they are scapegoats is a nazi act regardless of what comes next.