JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: takebackourtemple on July 28, 2010, 07:47:23 PM
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Someone briefly posted this subject and then it disappeared. I would like to answer it though. I'm sure some will have opposing views and I welcome any.
Accepting someone who is Jewish but homosexual is like accepting someone who is Jewish but non-observant. While exceptions do exist, most orthodox congregations will accept them with open arms, will count them towards the minyan and will even give them Aliyas. It does not mean that the orthodox approve of it, but it does acknowledge that a Jew is a Jew. A Chabad tzadik once said that everyone in the minyan is 100% kosher when they come to pray.
This doesn't mean that the orthodox are going to change their ways and bend backwards to accommodate the political agenda of queers, but they are going to do what they can to bring as many Jews as possible back to the torah.
It is a common practice in Judaism to put a fence around the torah to make sure that everything is followed properly. The intention of this fence is not to keep others out but to keep the devoted close to the torah. If someone wants to ensure that they have a minyan of at least 10 shomar shabbat Jews I fully understand that they do their best to find one but at the same time it is better to have the minyan than to intentionally not have one.
Despite the orthodox being strict, they are usually more accepting than the conservative and deformed. While the conservative and deformed will kick people out for not paying dues, more than 9 times out of 10, the Orthodox will encourage Jews to come in rather than to leave.
In some cases a little torah education and knowledge is enough for someone to see the errs of their ways and become a better person.
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What a joke this is.
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Was this the thread Dr. Brennan Fan is asking about?
I think that people need to understand there are other aspects of being human besides one's sexual proclivities. Often people on this forum view all homosexuals as being fundamentally the same. You have people that are basically good and those who are not. You cannot look at what someone does in the bedroom and know if they are a bad or good person. You know if a person is good by seeing them in the world with others, not by analyzing their sexual thoughts. A more revealing test of someone's character is how they react to an ailing stranger or an annoying person when they themselves are stressed out. I think the Orthodox way is right, as long as they do not feel pressured to change their views to accept the homosexual minority.
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JTFE, I can't speak to what Jewish places of worship should do because I'm not Jewish. There are conservative churches in America that accept homosexual members, but only on the condition that they are not engaging in homosexual acts or living the homosexual "lifestyle" as it has come to be known. There is a fine balance between being open to people and protecting the current flock. Of course liberal churches let anyone in, even people who don't believe in the Bible, but I don't count them.
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What a joke this is.
It's no joke. It's just a post with a misleading title. It's true that all Orthodox Jews accept any fellow Jew to pray no matter what he does. Homosexuality (inclination is not a sin). Sodomy is a sin in Judaism, but Judaism does not order to reject sinners or prevent them from keeping other mitzvot. The only exception is for some communal mitzvot if that Jew has received a Cherem. But it's quite unlikely that someone would receive a Cherem decree for sodomy, since Ravs should prove that he has not done Teshuvah and intends to keep on sinning and publicly defending his attitude and denying the validity of Torah ban on sodomy.
But the title seems to be intentionally written to confuse and make people believe that Ravs condone sodomy.
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What do you they mean by "accept".
If it is to accept homosexuality, I would think the author of whomever wrote that misquoted.
If it is to accept a person who has a tendency to be attracted to the same sex and it's unknown whether he/she practices this behavior, then I see nothing wrong with that. As long as homosexuality behavior is discouraged, just as eating non kosher foods or not being shomer shabbat should be discouraged, then absolutely these Rabbis are correct..it's no joke and it's perfectly justified and a good thing.
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Ruby,
I guess that's fine. I dont agree with it, but religious institutions have the prerogative to do as they see fit. This equation of sexual preference with morality is a false one. There are many many immoral homosexuals, but it isn't necessarily because of what they do in bed. It really doesnt matter what I think anyway. G-d will be the ultimate decision maker when it comes to who has or has not lived or attempted to live a moral existence
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By the way, this is not a copy of the deleted thread.
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Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination. Gays have an agenda, first they invade institution as persecuted minorities, then force the institutions to pass law to ban all negative talks about homosexuality as hate speech.
Imagine Moses and Aaron accepting homosexuals in the ancient congregation!!!
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Homosexuality is an abomination to G-d. Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination.
What do you mean by accepting them? Accepting them to dinner parties? Accepting what they say? Accepting their credit cards? Accepting their job application?
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Homosexuals are bad, mmkay?
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Homosexuality is an abomination to G-d. Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination.
What do you mean by accepting them? Accepting them to dinner parties? Accepting what they say? Accepting their credit cards? Accepting their job application?
I think Christian zionist mean accepting them in service or inviting them to your home for i.e. a dinner party as sign that you have gemeinschaft with them.
This is not possible. Questionable is if you can give them the hand as this is a sign of peace and gemeinschaft.
But there is no problem with accepting their job application or their credit card or if they are expert on a field to listen to them in order to make the right decision.
This are fleshy technical things, where most Christians see no problem with.
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Homosexuality is an abomination to G-d. Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination.
What do you mean by accepting them? Accepting them to dinner parties? Accepting what they say? Accepting their credit cards? Accepting their job application?
I think Christian zionist mean accepting them in service or inviting them to your home for i.e. a dinner party as sign that you have gemeinschaft with them.
This is not possible. Questionable is if you can give them the hand as this is a sign of peace and gemeinschaft.
But there is no problem with accepting their job application or their credit card or if they are expert on a field to listen to them in order to make the right decision.
This are fleshy technical things, where most Christians see no problem with.
However there is no Noahide Law (I suppose you are a Gentile) forbidding to invite a sinner home. On the other hand, there is a Law that a Gentile, besides keeping his own mitzvot, should avoid enticing others (Jews or Gentiles) to violate their respective mitzvot. Would you invite a non-Observant Jew to your home or a dinner where kashrut is not kept, or in a way he'd have to use his car on Shabbat? Would you invite a Jew and his Gentile partner to a party enticing them to keep on with that forbidden relation?
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בס''ד
These pseudo "rabbis" are extreme leftwing Peace Now traitors. Their statement urged that we accept active homosexuals who are practicing homosexuality, G-d forbid.
This is an attempt to get us to eventually accept homosexuality itself. Their statement is treasonous.
Shmuel Goldin yimach shmo vezichro is a Peace Now traitor who has spent years publicly pressuring little Israel to commit national suicide.
Haskel Lookstein is another leftwing traitor who became one of the first Orthodox "rabbis" to endorse the Oslo surrender agreements with the Fatah-PLO Nazi terrorist mass murderers.
Yuval Sherlo is an extreme leftwing traitor who is the darling of the Bolshevik news media in Israel. Sherlo is now condemning the Israeli government for not being welcoming enough to Sudanese black Muslim illegal aliens who are flooding into Israel with the assistance of Egypt.
This issue is already being discussed on another thread that Mord opened:
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,48294.0.html
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Ruby,
I guess that's fine. I dont agree with it, but religious institutions have the prerogative to do as they see fit. This equation of sexual preference with morality is a false one. There are many many immoral homosexuals, but it isn't necessarily because of what they do in bed. It really doesnt matter what I think anyway. G-d will be the ultimate decision maker when it comes to who has or has not lived or attempted to live a moral existence
I'm not saying that a homosexual is a "bad person" necessarily even if they're active. They could still be kind to others, etc. You pretty much hit the nail on the head when you said God decides who is moral and who is not moral. If God says that committing homsexual acts is a sin, then it's a sin, and not a moral thing to do at all according to God. So while an active homosexual might be moral in other ways, in committing those acts, he or she would not be moral.
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Was this the thread Dr. Brennan Fan is asking about?
I think that people need to understand there are other aspects of being human besides one's sexual proclivities. Often people on this forum view all homosexuals as being fundamentally the same. You have people that are basically good and those who are not. You cannot look at what someone does in the bedroom and know if they are a bad or good person. You know if a person is good by seeing them in the world with others, not by analyzing their sexual thoughts. A more revealing test of someone's character is how they react to an ailing stranger or an annoying person when they themselves are stressed out. I think the Orthodox way is right, as long as they do not feel pressured to change their views to accept the homosexual minority.
I think that everyone here acknowledges a difference, including me, between proud, practicing homosexuals and those who have same-sex desires that they are fighting and not acting on. All of these discussions involve PRACTICING homosexuals, not just anybody who has felt those feelings. I think we can all agree that it is heresy whenever someone says that the homosexual lifestyle is okay and just fine and kosher.
Elena Kagan, Elton John, Eminem, Adam Lambert, etc. are not abstinent homosexuals. They all live out their queerness boldly and proudly and do their best to tell the world that this disgusting life is okay.
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Homosexuality is an abomination to G-d. Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination.
What do you mean by accepting them? Accepting them to dinner parties? Accepting what they say? Accepting their credit cards? Accepting their job application?
I think Christian zionist mean accepting them in service or inviting them to your home for i.e. a dinner party as sign that you have gemeinschaft with them.
This is not possible. Questionable is if you can give them the hand as this is a sign of peace and gemeinschaft.
But there is no problem with accepting their job application or their credit card or if they are expert on a field to listen to them in order to make the right decision.
This are fleshy technical things, where most Christians see no problem with.
However there is no Noahide Law (I suppose you are a Gentile) forbidding to invite a sinner home. On the other hand, there is a Law that a Gentile, besides keeping his own mitzvot, should avoid enticing others (Jews or Gentiles) to violate their respective mitzvot. Would you invite a non-Observant Jew to your home or a dinner where kashrut is not kept, or in a way he'd have to use his car on Shabbat? Would you invite a Jew and his Gentile partner to a party enticing them to keep on with that forbidden relation?
Difficult question.
According to the believe of my congregation I should not invite any person who does not accept Jesus as his Lord and saviour and who lives not a life according to biblical values to my home.
But I think if some of you JTF Noahides or Jews, to me known since a time, would stand before my door, I would be very happy and invite you in. My best friend is also only a culture-Christian and a kind of deist. I never seperated from him.
I think it would be your decision what to consume or with whom to come.
Althrough interested in Jewish religion and culture and with some knowledge, I would not tell a Jew what Judaism is.
I don't think I would invite Jews or Noahides to my home, who I don't know.
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I wouldn't invite anyone I didn't know to my home.
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Difficult question.
According to the believe of my congregation I should not invite any person who does not accept Jesus as his Lord and saviour and who lives not a life according to biblical values to my home.
But I think if some of you JTF Noahides or Jews, to me known since a time, would stand before my door, I would be very happy and invite you in. My best friend is also only a culture-Christian and a kind of deist. I never seperated from him.
I think it would be your decision what to consume or with whom to come.
Althrough interested in Jewish religion and culture and with some knowledge, I would not tell a Jew what Judaism is.
I don't think I would invite Jews or Noahides to my home, who I don't know.
Your faith orders not to befriend non-Christians? Sorry, but this is similar or even worse than Muslims rules not to befriend non-Mulslims. In fact, a Muslim neighbour (the only Muslim family here), when I was intending to convert, he thought I was already a Jew, and disconected his automatic bell to prevnt me from violating Shabbat.
You wouldn't tell a Jew about Judaism? Why? And why could you tell a Jew what Judaism is? A Jew, even if not observant is supposed to know Judaism better than you. But supposing he received no Jewish education and knows nothing, what's the reason you would not explain Judaism to him if you know a bit?
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Raul, it's about protecting yourself from influences that could tempt you to sin. It's not about hating people. For example you might not let your kids play with another kid that does bad stuff because you wouldn't want your kids to be influenced by it. Christians are often friends with people of many different faiths though but there is supposed to be some caution as far as allowing other beliefs to influence one's own beliefs.
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Raul, it's about protecting yourself from influences that could tempt you to sin. It's not about hating people. For example you might not let your kids play with another kid that does bad stuff because you wouldn't want your kids to be influenced by it. Christians are often friends with people of many different faiths though but there is supposed to be some caution as far as allowing other beliefs to influence one's own beliefs.
A kid playing with another kid who has a misconduct (swearing, misbehaving, or even stealing) might be an issue. An evil person could be also an issue for an adult. But a Jew or a Noahide, just for not being Christian?
I wouldn't invite a Jew to my home, but just to protect him from eating non-kosher food, since as a Gentile I have no kosher items. But keeping away from Jews to avoid "their bad influence"... isn't it discriminatory and anti-Semite?
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A kid playing with another kid who has a misconduct (swearing, misbehaving, or even stealing) might be an issue. An evil person could be also an issue for an adult. But a Jew or a Noahide, just for not being Christian?
I wouldn't invite a Jew to my home, but just to protect him from eating non-kosher food, since as a Gentile I have no kosher items. But keeping away from Jews to avoid "their bad influence"... isn't it discriminatory and anti-Semite?
Raul, he explained himself already. He said he WOULD let Jews and Noahides into his home. Back off.
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HE would, but he also says the rules of his congregation forbid it. And Ruby replied that it may be a caution to avoid bad influences.
I am not offended if someone wants to avoid contact with people of a different faith, or he goes to a congregation that advises it. But I am quite inquistive about those issues because, if someone seeks the support of Jews to condemn sinners (sometimes to a further extent than required by the Torah), it would be a quite disagreeable surprise to discover that they might place Jews and Noahides in the same level of condemnation.
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I would allow Jews to visit me too because I don't think their morality is fundamentally different from my own even though we have different beliefs.
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I wouldn't invite anyone I didn't know to my home.
I've been invited so many times to people's houses for Shabbat and Yom Tov meals. When I lived in a religious neighborhood, all I had to do was go to any shul and usually five people would invite me to their house for a meal. This was without asking. One of these days when I finally kosher my house, I'm going to invite people from shul.
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HE would, but he also says the rules of his congregation forbid it. And Ruby replied that it may be a caution to avoid bad influences.
I am not offended if someone wants to avoid contact with people of a different faith, or he goes to a congregation that advises it. But I am quite inquistive about those issues because, if someone seeks the support of Jews to condemn sinners (sometimes to a further extent than required by the Torah), it would be a quite disagreeable surprise to discover that they might place Jews and Noahides in the same level of condemnation.
There are a few Jews who wouldn't want Gentiles in their home. Most, including everyone at JTF, isn't like that though. In any case if he himself is not like that, what is the big deal?
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HE would, but he also says the rules of his congregation forbid it. And Ruby replied that it may be a caution to avoid bad influences.
I am not offended if someone wants to avoid contact with people of a different faith, or he goes to a congregation that advises it. But I am quite inquistive about those issues because, if someone seeks the support of Jews to condemn sinners (sometimes to a further extent than required by the Torah), it would be a quite disagreeable surprise to discover that they might place Jews and Noahides in the same level of condemnation.
There are a few Jews who wouldn't want Gentiles in their home. Most, including everyone at JTF, isn't like that though. In any case if he himself is not like that, what is the big deal?
A Jew not wanting Gentiles in his home has a reason and an explanation for that. Ritual laws, in some cases the need to avoid falling in love with someone with whom marriage is not allowed. But Jews DO NOT consider that Gentiles are evil or that they should become Jewish.
But a Christian congregation telling its members not to invite anyone who has not accepted Jesus is quite a different thing. It's not a cultural or ritual law. It has to do with the belief that non-Christians (including Jews and Noahides) are in the wrong path and they don't want close contact with them.
If a Gentile visted a Jew, he might have problems with respcting some customs, ritual laws like kosher, and even cultural differences. It would be a reason for some Jews not to invite him.
But Christianity is not a culture and it has no ritual laws at home. It's quite unlikely that he could mistakenly do something wrong in his home. If a Christian does not invite a person of different religion, just for not having accepted Jeses, it means that he condemns him. It's ok. But if that Christian claims to support Jews and does not accept them, I see a potential for a polical problem in future because now he is sidding with Jews opposing some sins condemned by both. But what would his stance be in case the issue is condemning the "Jewish disbelief"?
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What is interesting is that people seeking conversion who follow all the laws(they are not allowed to keep shabbat so they have to do something minor like ripping toilet paper) don't count towards the minyan while someone born Jewish who violates just about every law is counted.
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What is interesting is that people seeking conversion who follow all the laws(they are not allowed to keep shabbat so they have to do something minor like ripping toilet paper) don't count towards the minyan while someone born Jewish who violates just about every law is counted.
That's a Torah Law. And if you are Jewish you have to accept that. A person seeking conversion is in fact not keeping any mitzvot even if he externally keeps all the rules. He is just practising to get used to the mitzvot and do them after conversion. But it's no mitzvah for him. The only valid mitzvot he keeps are the Noahide Laws. Since he is still a Gentile, it's quite reasonable that he is not allowed to join the Minian. Why would he join a praying assembly of a people that is still not his people. It's like a nationality. A person can be very good and even keep the US constitution better than Americans, but he cannot vote in US untill he gets legal citizenship.
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1. It is not my business to teach Jews and Noahides what to do.
2. I will not invite anybody to my home beside my brethren in faith and my friends from the "old time".
I will not change my oppinion on this. And if this is anti-semtism, than I am one.
And I add I don't put Jews and Nohides on the same level how homosexuals! If this was your impression I apologize.
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1. It is not my business to teach Jews and Noahides what to do.
2. I will not invite anybody to my home beside my brethren in faith and my friends from the "old time".
I will not change my oppinion on this. And if this is anti-semtism, than I am one.
It depends on your reasons. If all your meetings at your home are meant to talk about and share your faith, it's logic not to invite others. If you have some moral objection to befriending Jews personally at home, it borders anti-Semitism. But as far as it is just a private issue at your home, I have no ojection to your attitude.
The problem is that you join Jews and Noahides here to talk against some sins forbidden by both the Torah and the Gospels. (sodomy, secularism....) and you advocated that those transgressors should not be accepted. So I wonder how you would act in a country where your Christian denomination were a majority if the issue were the acceptance of Jews and Noahides. (since according to some interpretaions of the Gospel which your congregation seems to follow, Jews and Noahides are also condemned)
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1. It is not my business to teach Jews and Noahides what to do.
2. I will not invite anybody to my home beside my brethren in faith and my friends from the "old time".
I will not change my oppinion on this. And if this is anti-semtism, than I am one.
It depends on your reasons. If all your meetings at your home are meant to talk about and share your faith, it's logic not to invite others. If you have some moral objection to befriending Jews personally at home, it borders anti-Semitism. But as far as it is just a private issue at your home, I have no ojection to your attitude.
The problem is that you join Jews and Noahides here to talk against some sins forbidden by both the Torah and the Gospels. (sodomy, secularism....) and you advocated that those transgressors should not be accepted. So I wonder how you would act in a country where your Christian denomination were a majority if the issue were the acceptance of Jews and Noahides. (since according to some interpretaions of the Gospel which your congregation seems to follow, Jews and Noahides are also condemned)
We reject political power. So there is no problem. A secular gouvernment is in my eyes better than a religious one for several reasons.
I think to center on your own community is a good thing. Of cause this is exclusive, but you shouldn't get this as an affront.
I am personally a very great fan of the Jews and all things that are Jewish, althrough no believer in Judaism. It is more like this kids with the Ninja and Samurai spleen.
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1. It is not my business to teach Jews and Noahides what to do.
2. I will not invite anybody to my home beside my brethren in faith and my friends from the "old time".
I will not change my oppinion on this. And if this is anti-semtism, than I am one.
It depends on your reasons. If all your meetings at your home are meant to talk about and share your faith, it's logic not to invite others. If you have some moral objection to befriending Jews personally at home, it borders anti-Semitism. But as far as it is just a private issue at your home, I have no ojection to your attitude.
The problem is that you join Jews and Noahides here to talk against some sins forbidden by both the Torah and the Gospels. (sodomy, secularism....) and you advocated that those transgressors should not be accepted. So I wonder how you would act in a country where your Christian denomination were a majority if the issue were the acceptance of Jews and Noahides. (since according to some interpretaions of the Gospel which your congregation seems to follow, Jews and Noahides are also condemned)
We reject political power. So there is no problem. A secular gouvernment is in my eyes better than a religious one for several reasons.
I think to center on your own community is a good thing. Of cause this is exclusive, but you shouldn't get this as an affront.
I am personally a very great fan of the Jews and all things that are Jewish, althrough no believer in Judaism. It is more like this kids with the Ninja and Samurai spleen.
Judaism does not exist as a novelty for gentiles to dabble with... Im sorry Ulli you lost me on this comment...
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1. It is not my business to teach Jews and Noahides what to do.
2. I will not invite anybody to my home beside my brethren in faith and my friends from the "old time".
I will not change my oppinion on this. And if this is anti-semtism, than I am one.
It depends on your reasons. If all your meetings at your home are meant to talk about and share your faith, it's logic not to invite others. If you have some moral objection to befriending Jews personally at home, it borders anti-Semitism. But as far as it is just a private issue at your home, I have no ojection to your attitude.
The problem is that you join Jews and Noahides here to talk against some sins forbidden by both the Torah and the Gospels. (sodomy, secularism....) and you advocated that those transgressors should not be accepted. So I wonder how you would act in a country where your Christian denomination were a majority if the issue were the acceptance of Jews and Noahides. (since according to some interpretaions of the Gospel which your congregation seems to follow, Jews and Noahides are also condemned)
We reject political power. So there is no problem. A secular gouvernment is in my eyes better than a religious one for several reasons.
I think to center on your own community is a good thing. Of cause this is exclusive, but you shouldn't get this as an affront.
I am personally a very great fan of the Jews and all things that are Jewish, althrough no believer in Judaism. It is more like this kids with the Ninja and Samurai spleen.
Judaism does not exist as a novelty for gentiles to dabble with... Im sorry Ulli you lost me on this comment...
Muman you didn't understand me. If I choose this comparision I wanted to highlight that it is cultural thing no religious.
You can be enshured, that I didn't sit at home and practice any rituals.
If the comparison was wrong I apologize.
But yes I have a cookbook with Jewish receipts, I read Henryk M. Broder, Leon de Winter, Milton Friedman etc. and some books about Jewish culture and religion and I like listen to Chaim.
But I have even more books about reformed Christianity and Christianity in general.
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Could you all stop twisting Ulli's words already? He isn't Jewish--do you all expect him to be more Jewish than Chaim in his personal life?
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I have to go now to a customer. Will be back in the evening.
Thanks DBF for the support. But perhaps Muman had the thought I would dress like a Jew and would perform Jewish rituals and holidays at home, as some of the asia fans dressed as Ninjas do. This is not the case.
I think next time I will choose words more carefully.
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I have to go now to a customer. Will be back in the evening.
Thanks DBF for the support. But perhaps Muman had the thought I would dress like a Jew and would perform Jewish rituals and holidays at home, as some of the asia fans dressed as Ninjas do. This is not the case.
I think next time I will choose words more carefully.
I don't think you said anything wrong. You were drawing an analogy between your faith's practices and what (real) Orthodox synagogues do in regards to homosexuals.
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I have to go now to a customer. Will be back in the evening.
Thanks DBF for the support. But perhaps Muman had the thought I would dress like a Jew and would perform Jewish rituals and holidays at home, as some of the asia fans dressed as Ninjas do. This is not the case.
I think next time I will choose words more carefully.
I don't think you said anything wrong. You were drawing an analogy between your faith's practices and what (real) Orthodox synagogues do in regards to homosexuals.
My only objection is that he appears to make Judaism into something to be a fan of, sorta like Baseball or Football fans... Judaism is a religion which considers itself to be the one and only truth of G-d and this is why we are not supposed to teach Torah to non-Jews. I often ask myself if it is wise to openly discuss some deep secrets of Torah here because many non-Jews read what I write and make Judaism into something like a hobby, something not taken seriously as it should be.
When I first joined JTF I did not realize that a good portion of readers were non-Jews and as a result I have said things which were taken the wrong way. I have faith that the day will come when we know the truth of G-d clearly...
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Ulli, I have no problem if your community is exclusive or you have it forbidden to receive people who are strange to your faith at home. It's ok if you like Jewish food, music or any Jewish cultural item but don't believe in Judaism.
If you center in your community and reject political power, that's all ok. But since this forum addresses political issues and you take part in it (even more, this thread is about Jews in USA, not your community and not your country) I wanted to check your stance. I always enquire about people who support the Jewish/Noahide position from the perspective of another religion because I wonder what stance they may adopt on other issues where there is disagreement.
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Muman, even if all members of the forum were Jewish, the settings allow non-members to read posts. Non-members are only forbidden to post. And this forum is quite known and read. So, if there is some Torah teaching that you think or your Rav has told you that may not be taught to Gentiles, it's better not to post it here.
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I don't think there is anything wrong in a seclusive community. I personally think that Jews should stick to the values of giving hospitality for strangers as described in the bible but some Jewish groups seem to prefer seclusion. Maybe they learned that from during the exile in Europe.
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Muman I have to disagree.
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My only objection is that he appears to make Judaism into something to be a fan of, sorta like Baseball or Football fans...
He admires aspects of Judaism and is interested in learning about it even though he doesn't believe in all its teachings and is content as a Christian.
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muman613: "Judaism is a religion which considers itself to be the one and only truth of G-d and this is why we are not supposed to teach Torah to non-Jews. I often ask myself if it is wise to openly discuss some deep secrets of Torah here because many non-Jews read what I write and make Judaism into something like a hobby, something not taken seriously as it should be. "
With all due respect, muman613, the day and age in which we live makes possible a virtually instantaneous access to almost any and all sources of information.
I had accessed all of the Torah websites which you have offered as sources long before I saw them as links here on the forum.
Going a step further, Christians base their faith on our Scriptures, and know full well that without Torah there is no justification for their belief in a Messiah.
Granted, Christian translations, interpretations, and doctrines differ from those of the Jews, but the fact remains that they consider Torah the basis for their beliefs.
In the days of Rabbi Hillel access to Torah study was unquestioningly more difficult and reserved for those willing to accept it and keep it.
Today, however, serious Christian seminaries both Protestant and Catholic require of their students the study of Biblical Hebrew and Classical Greek in order that they read scriptures in their original tongue.
Interest in Torah, as well as access to Jewish Torah study, is therefore no longer the reserve of an exclusive few.
Yet, even with all these modern advances in information access, in-depth study and understanding of Torah remains an undertaking exclusive to the Jewish Yeshiva.
I happen to view these facts as being positive, as the Jewish People's best friends in the world today are Christians who read and believe their Bibles.
I will go so far as to say that if we Jews today had among us as much interest in Torah as do our Christian friends, we wouldn't be facing most of our current troubles which clearly emanate from within and among our own people because of their ignorance.
So...go ahead and teach what you feel we must know.
It certainly has been a great blessing and benefit to myself and to many others.
Rest assured that the average visitor to this forum will never read most of your posts, as most are a very difficult and esoteric read even for someone fairly knowledgeable of Torah.
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Homosexuality is an abomination to G-d. Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination. Gays have an agenda, first they invade institution as persecuted minorities, then force the institutions to pass law to ban all negative talks about homosexuality as hate speech.
Imagine Moses and Aaron accepting homosexuals in the ancient congregation!!!
This is why We are all falling from grace, and loosing our freedoms, because there are those who do not obey God's word.
Romans 1:24- Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the creator- who is forever praised. Because of this God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.. Its is always a mystery to me how people can read these words and go ahead with their sins and not think the Almighty will judge them in a harsh way!
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Homosexuality is an abomination to G-d. Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination. Gays have an agenda, first they invade institution as persecuted minorities, then force the institutions to pass law to ban all negative talks about homosexuality as hate speech.
Imagine Moses and Aaron accepting homosexuals in the ancient congregation!!!
This is why We are all falling from grace, and loosing our freedoms, because there are those who do not obey G-d's word.
Romans 1:24- Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the creator- who is forever praised. Because of this G-d gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.. Its is always a mystery to me how people can read these words and go ahead with their sins and not think the Almighty will judge them in a harsh way!
And there is a great difference between Christianity and Judaism concerning this... As several other posters here said Judaism does not make Homosexuality a crime... Only sexual intercourse between men is considered an offense which can be punished by death when witnessed by at least two observers and only after being warned about it. Judaism doesn't condemn same sex attraction, only the act of sodomy itself.
And as we have said before... The penalty for homosexuality is no more reviled than that of Shabbat desecration... And as others have said if the Shul would prohibit all Shabbat desecrators and all who don't eat kosher and all who don't keep the laws of Niddah {womens purity} then there would be nobody who can go to shul...
Remember that the man who collected wood on Shabbat was stoned to death... I think it would be easier to get every Jew to observe Shabbat first and then we can worry about the problem with homosexuality..
PS: Romans is not in Tanakh, is not a part of Jewish scripture. I do not read that...
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Ulli, I have no problem if your community is exclusive or you have it forbidden to receive people who are strange to your faith at home. It's ok if you like Jewish food, music or any Jewish cultural item but don't believe in Judaism.
If you center in your community and reject political power, that's all ok. But since this forum addresses political issues and you take part in it (even more, this thread is about Jews in USA, not your community and not your country) I wanted to check your stance. I always enquire about people who support the Jewish/Noahide position from the perspective of another religion because I wonder what stance they may adopt on other issues where there is disagreement.
Raul, I told once a brother in faith about JTF. He said, that I didn't belong there, not mainly because here are many non-Christians, but because it is involved in politics and wants to gain political power.
I know that a lot of statements I make here would be heavily disapproved by the members of my assembly.
I am disrupted between the nice members of JTF here and my congregation. It is not easy.
But I am connected to both. I have no idea, where it comes from, but I like Jewish culture. Even the Jewish culture many Jews here would not like. I admire the self-discipline of the Jewish people, their capability to focus on a goal and to reach it, their brilliance in thought and their creativity to find solutions for problems other have not seen before. And yes I try to learn from them in this fields and try to copy technics they use to solve problems. I like reading stories about successfull Jews in books or in magazines.
And Muman yes you are right, I read your postings. You know, that I think that Jews can do whatever they want in Israel because it is theirs. So none of the things you wrote would be offensive to me, even if I would not like them - what is very rarely the case.
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If a Christian does not invite a person of different religion, just for not having accepted Jeses, it means that he condemns him. It's ok. But if that Christian claims to support Jews and does not accept them, I see a potential for a polical problem in future because now he is sidding with Jews opposing some sins condemned by both. But what would his stance be in case the issue is condemning the "Jewish disbelief"?
Christians don't believe all the same things that Jews do, but the Christians here are not anti-Semites. Don't equate theological disagreements to hatred.
We believe our own religion is right, that doesn't mean we condemn people who don't agree.