JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on August 20, 2010, 02:36:59 PM
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An interesting take by Vienna Mike at the virtual Judah blog. What are your thoughts and comments on this? Also wonder what Chaim thinks. The post by vienna mike follows below...
http://virtualjudah.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/a-cautionary-tale-for-shabbat/
A Cautionary Tale for Shabbat
By Vienna Mike
The other day, Tzsvi Fishman published on his blog a giant pro-aliyah rant in which he first accuses everyone who does not immediately drop everything and make aliyah immediately of cowardice, and then proceeds to demolish his own case by claiming that waving orange ribbons and hiding from the cops at Homesh constitutes the Pinchas-like struggle to overthrow the illegitimate erev rav regime called for by The Holy Martyr Rebbe Meir Kahane (z”l) toward the end of his career. In support of this, he extensively quotes “Or haRayon”, a book compiled from R. Kahane’s unpublished writings and ghost-published after his death by his close associates in an effort to present their idea of the Martyr Rebbe’s ideology. Moreover, most of the particular passages Fishman quotes were written in the early 5700s and were tied to R. Kahane’s belief that redemption “at once” could be brought by revolution before the expiration of the forty-year “divine credit” of miracles that led to the creation and temporary strengthening of the State of Israel despite the wickedness of its rulers. A few of the latter passages were written just before R. Kahane’s turn toward Medinat Yehudah as the solution to the problem still facing us today. Obviously, the forty-year limit is long past. Its end was marked by the beginning of the Oslo Process, signaling a definitive commitment to redemption “in its time” or else the destruction of Israel and a reset in the process of redemption back to square one. At the end of his life, R. Kahane himself was committed to Medinat Yehudah, so much so that his last speech was given before the provisional banner of Medinat Yehudah.
At any rate, this is not very important. What IS important is to ignore the kind of ranting Fishman indulges in on almost a daily basis. Those who take Fishman and others like him seriously do a disservice to themselves, and more importantly, waste a valuable, scarce set of resources that will be needed in good time, namely their lives, health and money. To explain why, I will resort to the ancient rabbinical method, and tell you a tale to think about over Shabbat. So here is how it goes:
Not long ago, in a place not very far away, Flatbush to be precise, there lived a young man named Ephraim Khantsis. He was not unintelligent and quite brave in the fashion of young men who think themselves immortal. Young Ephraim had been born in the Ukraine, but his family had emigrated to America when he was quite young and so he had never known what it is like to live in a totalitarian society. All his life he had spent in America and was thus used to the inviolate nature of basic freedoms and human rights enshrined in the American constitution. So used was he to these freedoms, that he could not even imagine a society in which they would not exist, a society in which there was no freedom of speech, nor free elections, nor a free press, nor a right to keep and bear arms. He knew that such societies could exist, intellectually, but he could not even imagine how they function.
In due course, young Ephraim grew up and understood that a Jew had no place living under goyshe rule. Naturally, he became a Kahanist, as is the fashion of all decent Jewish young men aged between sixteen and thirty or so. Indeed it is fair to say that if a young Jewish man is not a Kahanist by twenty, he has no Jewish heart. Of course, if he is still a Kahanist by thirty, he has other problems. But young Ephraim was still too young to know this.
As a young Kahanist, Ephraim did all the usual Kahanist things. He read Kahane books, he hung out at Kahanist websites, he communicated with Kahanist activists. In due course, he became committed to making aliyah and helping to build a Torah State in Eretz Yisrael. Of course, he had little idea how to do this, but he assumed that if he just got to Israel and went to Yosh, he would find others who would help him and guide him, and all would be well.
As soon as he graduated from SUNY Stony Brook with his degree in Computer Science, young Ephraim got on a plane to Ben Gurion airport. When he got off the plane in Lod, he enrolled in Machon Meir and made his way to Kfar Tapuach, hoping to lend a hand to the building of a Torah State. There, he linked up with all the usual suspects. Yekutiel Guzovsky, David HaIvri, Baruch Marzel, all the tired old men who represent the sad spectacle that is modern-day Kahanism in Israel.
But, you see, no one, not the Kahanist websites, not the Kahanist “leaders” and certainly not blogs like Fishman’s, educated young Ephraim on the reality of the situation in Eretz Yisrael. All his life, he had lived in a democracy. All his life he had been used to human rights, such as freedom of speech, being inviolate. All his life he had been used to the idea that if enough people just get together and demand stuff, the powers that be will seek to accommodate them for fear of losing their votes. He thought that Israel was a democracy, too. Everyone had told him this. Why would he think differently?
No one told young Ephraim that Israel is a totalitarian police state about as free and democratic as Brezhnev’s USSR. No one told him that in Israel there is no freedom of speech, human rights are protected only for those who have the right protektsia, elections are rigged in advance, all electronic communications are monitored by the secret police and the average citizen cannot take a step into the bushes to relieve himself without a Shabak snitch running to tell the powers that be all about it. No one told him that the people he hung out with live under a microscope. No one told him that the very act of saying hello to them lands one on a secret police watchlist. No one told him that they are surrounded by snitches on all sides and that some of them are forced to snitch on their own comrades for fear of their own lives and the lives of those whom they love. No one told him that the vast majority of Jews in Eretz Yisrael worship the State of Israel as an idol no different in nature from the Golden Calf, but far more dangerous in substance. No one told him that the people who should be busy trying to change this sad state of affairs by advocating Jewish independence and Jewish self-sufficiency are instead busy running internet cafes, or writing blogs to urge ignorant young men like Ephraim to make aliyah, or taking nature hikes, or trying to increase their number of Knesset seats from two to three.
The moment young Ephraim opened his mouth and started telling others what he believed, a snitch in Tapuach ran to tell the Shabak. The mamlachti whores whom he mistook for rabbis at Machon Meir demanded that he change his views or else. The Shabak made threats and ordered him to stay out of Yosh. But young Ephraim lacked the basic knowledge to understand what it all meant. He proudly stood his ground. He refused to change his views because his views were right. He refused to recant his statements because he had spoken the truth and, in the democratic society he was used to living in, no one is punished for merely speaking his mind. He refused to stay out of Yosh because, in a democratic society, the police cannot simply ban a man from half the country on a whim, so he could not comprehend how such an “order” could even exist, much less be legally enforced.
And no one, not the tired old men he was hanging around with, not his Tapuach peers, not his classmates at Machon Meir, NO ONE took the trouble to educate young Ephraim as to the kind of society he was really living in. First of all, they did not know him and therefore did not care about him. Second, there was the language barrier. But third and most important of all, in order to tell Ephraim the Truth, they first have to admit the Truth to themselves. And they cannot do it, because the Truth imposes upon them obligations they are simply unwilling to fulfill.
And so Ephraim was simply arrested by the Shabak and thrown into Eshel prison without charge or trial. In a totalitarian police state, the secret police can do anything. After all, unlike in democratic societies, in a totalitarian police state like Israel, there is no law. There is only the appearance of legality to paper over the reality of arbitrary naked force lurking just below the surface. The “law” guarantees all kinds of freedoms in Israel, just like it did in the USSR and still does in Syria, Iran, North Korea or Zimbawe or any other similar country. But only children and naïve immigrants who do not know any better would actually believe what the “law” says. In actuality, the secret police need only point a finger, write a memo, and a man disappears into the gulag. If he is lucky, he might make it out. If he is unlucky, he might have an “accident”, “die of disease” or be “shot while attempting to escape”. Or he might just rot away in some dungeon forever, and never again see the light of day. In Israel, the façade is prettier than in Zimbabwe or North Korea, and the authorities are more restrained by the need to maintain the façade, but only when the cameras are watching. When there are no cameras watching, Israel might as well be Zimbabwe.
Now, once he was arrested, Ephraim did all the right, good and noble things a proper Jew is supposed to do when arrested by the Israelis. He refused to acknowledge their authority to arrest him. He refused to talk to them. He refused to recognize the legitimacy of their “courts” or their “law”. He refused, in short, to be treated as anything other than what he was, that being a prisoner of war seized arbitrarily and illegally by a foreign force illegitimately occupying his country.
But then a funny thing happened. While Ephraim was bravely defying the Israeli occupier, the other Jews in the Holy Land did… absolutely nothing. No one protested on his behalf. No one sprayed graffiti on buildings or pasted posters with his face on every street corner, demanding his freedom. No one took Israeli soldiers hostage to exchange for him. No one blew up border cops or ambushed policemen to avenge his illegal detention. He was utterly alone. No one was actually struggling to build a Torah State. The few who should have been busy inspiring the struggle were busy with nonsense. The many who should have been struggling were never inspired. And the few brave heroes willing to sacrifice their lives to actually do battle with the regime as urban guerrillas would not do so for him, because they did not know him and he was not one of them. And thus his noble defiance was utterly useless.
In a way, Ephraim Khantsis was lucky. Unlike numerous underage girls at Amona, he was neither raped nor sexually assaulted. Unlike Yaakov Teitel, he was not tortured to within an inch of his life, driven insane and forced to confess to every unsolved police case since the shooting of Arlosoff. Unlike Chaim Perlman, he was not subjected to strappado. Unlike Rav Binyamin Kahane (z”l), he was not murdered. In the end, he was simply deported back to America. One hopes that he is wiser for the experience.
The story of Ephraim Khantsis, dear reader, is a cautionary tale about the utility of new American olim at this stage of the national liberation struggle. Unless you speak good Hebrew, can blend into Israeli society, have good connections in Eretz Yisrael and thus many places to hide from the enemy, and can pass for an Israeli at need, you are of no use whatsoever in Eretz Yisrael. All you are going to do is get yourself arrested and deported if you are lucky. If you are unlucky, the Shabak will quietly murder you. And no one will care.
If you are an American Jew who wants to make a difference, do not listen to the aliyah rants of Tzvi Fishman and his ilk. Your body is not needed in Eretz Yisrael. Today, what is needed is your time, your voice, your money and your political support. The idea of Medinat Yehudah must spread and you must help to spread it. Once the idea spreads far enough, there will be a national liberation struggle. During the coming struggle, Jewish communities in Yosh will need funding. Jewish self-defense organizations will need weapons. Medinat Yehudah activists struggling in Eretz Yisrael will need equipment, technical aid and moral support. Even today, though most of the money that goes to Yosh is simply wasted, organizations like the Central Fund funnel millions of dollars to worthwhile projects.
When the time comes and there is a Stage One transition, you might be useful as a fundraiser in America or as a participant in the War of Symbols in Israel. When there is a Stage Two transition, you will be useful as both a fundraiser and, if you wish it, a fighter. When the War of Independence begins in earnest, all who want to fight will have ample opportunity to do so. Until then, have patience. Advocate. Spread the word. Gather skills. Learn Hebrew. Save money. Wait. And ignore the aliyah rants. That is all you can do.
Shabbat Shalom
10 Elul, 5770
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Vienna Mike tells it like it is in terms of "reality on the ground" in Eretz Yisrael.
The State apparatus has morphed into a full scale Bolshevik Stazi State.
Apparently Barry Chamitz's expose's of the evil ongoing inside Israel today is mostly true, if not all true.
Disagree with the authorities in Israel?
You meet up with a tragic accident, just like in the USSR of days past.
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I just read this before I got to the JTF forum. Enlightening, but saddening.
KWR-BT, I think I saw you post up the Medinat Yehudah website 1st, so kudos to you for sharing it [its been a good regular read for me the past week].
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In general I do not agree with this Vienna Mike. The truth is that by dissuading Jews from making aliyah he is doing more damage than anything. If all the religious Jews were in Israel there would be no way that any evil state could do anything about it... If the majority of the Jews took control of the government they could change the evil nature of the state. Maybe this is why Vienna Mike is acting like the spies in the desert..
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This article represents a point of view that some of us have not been exposed to. What's the expression, "a stranger in a strage land.'
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בס''ד
This article is pure baloney written by a wimpy Jew who wants to make excuses for his cowardly decision to stay in the galut.
The Shabak is an evil organization controlled by an evil government. But the claim that they are murdering Jewish dissidents is preposterous. They do arrest and imprison Jews solely for expressing their views from time to time. That is certainly obscene and unforgivable. But they are not murdering Jews and then trying to pass it off as "accidents".
Jews are obligated to live in the Land of Israel even if there is an evil government there. Jews who fail to do so are violating Torah law.
As far as Ephraim Khantsis or "Doom" is concerned, I am not surprised that he immediately got into trouble. He is the guy who ran Mike Guzofsky's petty splinter forum - a forum of five or six losers who spent virtually all of their time obsessively attacking me personally and JTF in general. These are people who never accomplished a single thing for the Jewish people, but they have the unmitigated chutzpah to attack those who led the historic campaign to liberate 1.5 million Jews in the former Soviet Union. Indeed, Ephraim would still be in the Ukraine if not for our campaign to save Soviet Jewry. Just in case people forgot, Ephraim's sinat chinam (needless hatred) toward his fellow Jews led him to even assist the Nazi Tina Greco when she was a member of his pathetic forum, and she openly bragged on his forum that she had posted pictures of JTF members on the Nazi web site StørmFrønt. Ephraim and Mike Guzofsky refused to remove her posts or ban her for a whole week. In other words, they were willing to work with Nazis just to get at JTF.
If there is one thing that we know about the splinter haters like Guzofsky, Ephraim Khantsis, David HaIvri and Shelly Rubin, it's that they are clownish amateurs with big mouths who never accomplish anything other than embarrass the real Kahanist movement - which is JTF/Hayamin Haamiti. The fact that Ephraim got in trouble as he went around making revolutionary rants in Bolshevik Israel was quite predictable. The fact that he decided to run away from Israel to live in the galut again the minute he had a legal problem is also predictable.
If anyone is going to tell me that he is a fellow Jew and that I should sympathize with him, I show him as much sympathy as he and his hero Irv Rubin ys"v showed toward the real Jewish hero Jonathan Pollard. Rubin proclaimed on the Merv Griffin Show before 30 million television viewers that Pollard should get the death penalty. Ephraim and Guzi and HaIvri defend the traitor Rubin. They always defend traitors and they always condemn real heroes. Sorry if I can't bring myself to sympathize with them.
BTW if you are planning to move to Israel and if you start calling for the violent overthrow of the government, you will have legal problems. But if you have any brains, the odds are you will not have any legal problems. Many activists from the real JDL that I led in the 1980s live in Israel for years now, a number of prominent JTFers have moved there, and we have a very active Hebrew forum. None of these people have had any problems because they do not run around calling for violent revolution. They are open Kahanists but they are Kahanists with brains.
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Yimach schmo vezichro to Doom, Tina Greco, Kelly Scott, and the retard and his shiksa "girlfriend".
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Chaim,
When I read this article, I assumed he was living in Israel and speaking to us as someone who was on the frontlines of Judea and Samaria. His tone makes it seem like he is an insider. I read the article in my usual speed read kind of way and I didn't catch the part about his allegations that the Shabak murders (authentic) Jewish dissidents.
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In another one of his posts, he said America was NOT his country.
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I don't speed read articles because you miss very important details that way.
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In another post, Vienna Mike describes himself as a soldier. So I just assumed he was living in Israel.
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I don't speed read articles because you miss very important details that way.
In what Chaim wrote, I thought that Vienna was perceived as having meant the Shabak deliberately goes out and kills people. I did go back to see what I missed. He implies it. It doesn't take much to read between the lines of his glaring sarcasm.
"If he is lucky, he might make it out. If he is unlucky, he might have an “accident”, “die of disease” or be “shot while attempting to escape”. "
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I don't speed read articles because you miss very important details that way.
In what Chaim wrote, I thought that Vienna was perceived as having meant the Shabak deliberately goes out and kills people. I did go back to see what I missed. He implies it. It doesn't take much to read between the lines of his glaring sarcasm.
"If he is lucky, he might make it out. If he is unlucky, he might have an “accident”, “die of disease” or be “shot while attempting to escape”. "
Indeed, he does claim this. And it's completely unsubstantiated.
Very interesting comments, Chaim.
Lisa, I too perceived that vienna mike is someone living in Israel while claiming not to in order to make a strong argument against certain tactics of people who do live in Israel. On the other hand, I find that site's rhetoric goes too far at times. For instance, it's one thing to say to Fishman and other yesha activists "your arguments are not effective, you're not convincing people to move there, and you need to do x y and z practical steps for fortifying your own existence before other Jews will join you." So until they do certain things it is a vain hope for masses of Jews to come join them and magically fix things (some writers often give this impression in their aliyah promotion) - they need to 'get their act together' so to speak and only then can they reasonable expect to convince Jews to join them. This I think is quite a strong argument he makes in many places in the site and over at A7. However, it's quite another thing to actually dissuade good Kahanist Jews who already have the passion and already are convinced that Israel is the place they have to be, to dissuade these Jews from coming home is an evil thing to do. I have to agree with Chaim in his comment about that.
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I wonder if he would be interested in joining this forum. From what I've read on his blog, there are many areas in which we agree, except for his dissuading Jews to make aliyah.
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I wonder if he would be interested in joining this forum. From what I've read on his blog, there are many areas in which we agree, except for his dissuading Jews to make aliyah.
Doom you mean? Doom is a Nazi-collaborating Judenrat.
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I wonder if he would be interested in joining this forum. From what I've read on his blog, there are many areas in which we agree, except for his dissuading Jews to make aliyah.
Doom you mean? Doom is a Nazi-collaborating Judenrat.
No, she is talking about vienna mike, the author/authors of the Virtual Judah site.
I've been reading his stuff for years now, and he is not only very intelligent but very learned as well, especially in military matters and the history of warfare.
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Well he certainly seems very intelligent, and he's a good writer.
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As for Vienna Mike, my take on reading his articles was that he was not discouraging aliyah per se, but rather suggesting that American Jews of a nationalist mindset wishing to make a real difference in saving the Jewish People would be better off postponing their move until the State of Judah was ready for trained and dedicated young Jews prepared to immediately construct settlements and begin defending the land and people through force of arms. Therefore he was suggesting that the greatest service young nationalist Jews could render to the Jewish people in Medinat Yisrael would be to remain here in the West temporarily to finance and help arm the new State, all the while training in earnest here in preparation of the austerity and hardships which would lay ahead. Otherwise, Mike believes, those making aliyah today would in effect be "fish out of water" for several or more years as they attempted to acclimate into a repressive and leftist dominated society bent on defeat and surrender.
He writes extremely well, is very well read, and apparently familiar with military strategy. Not everything he proposes seems thoroughly thought out, but over all I like his far-reaching thinking about real solutions to the problems inside Medinat Yisrael.
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I think he complains too much and never offers any solution. I have read his postings on Fishmans blog and generally I find his posts annoying... Sorry...
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As for Vienna Mike, my take on reading his articles was that he was not discouraging aliyah per se, but rather suggesting that American Jews of a nationalist mindset wishing to make a real difference in saving the Jewish People would be better off postponing their move until the State of Judah was ready for trained and dedicated young Jews prepared to immediately construct settlements and begin defending the land and people through force of arms.
But that is essentially discouraging aliyah. It's just calling it "postponing" rather than rejecting outright. But postponing is the same thing. No one would have the gall to suggest that we'll NEVER go back to Israel. Even the most antizionist sects say that eventually we will go to Israel. Yet they discourage aliyah by saying "now is not the time" for whatever reason is given. So he is essentially discouraging aliyah with all of this rationalization aside, especially because the things he recommends diaspora Jews giving aid to from abroad (as you mention below) don't actually exist on the ground yet. It's just another side of the "wait til moshiach" coin, in my opinion. Just a new and more rational excuse in its place. Still waiting for some future event that may or may not happen in this Jew's lifetime. And neither excuse has validity in Jewish law.
Therefore he was suggesting that the greatest service young nationalist Jews could render to the Jewish people in Medinat Yisrael would be to remain here in the West temporarily to finance and help arm the new State, all the while training in earnest here in preparation of the austerity and hardships which would lay ahead.
It's a great idea in theory but there is nothing to finance and arm because nothing exists on the ground that resembles his vision of a state of Judah or pre-state, or even a political wing. So the american Jew is basically just sitting on his hands but has a more profound and crafty excuse than before to not fulfill his duty as a Jew to ascend to the land.
Otherwise, Mike believes, those making aliyah today would in effect be "fish out of water" for several or more years as they attempted to acclimate into a repressive and leftist dominated society bent on defeat and surrender.
This was always the part of his argument that I could not quite understand. If an American Jew is only playing a waiting game by sitting tight in America, wouldn't it make more sense to play the exact same waiting game, (ready to join in the struggle with funding, propaganda, military training, ready to jump right into the hardships that lie ahead), but while already acclimating to Israel by becoming an oleh, learning the language, and working and living in Israel making for a much smoother transition and much smoother incorporation into the ranks of the medinat yehudah activists/soldiers when the time is right?
I have always said that according to what he writes, one is actually better off playing the same waiting game as an immigrant in Israel, already on the ground and ready. It gets all the logistical, absorption, and parnassa issues out of the way ahead of time rather than at the point when we need ready activists/footsoldiers to jump into the struggle in whichever avenue. Not to mention that playing that waiting game outside the land puts a lot at risk because that time may never come. There is no guarantee a movement like this ever gets off the ground. Then you have many well meaning nationalist Jews sitting in galut wishing they had gone home earlier in life and looking back in regret that they never went proudly to their homeland when they had the chance.
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I think he complains too much and never offers any solution. I have read his postings on Fishmans blog and generally I find his posts annoying... Sorry...
Actually, the blog he writes offers solutions which are quite practical if enough people got behind the ideas. The complaints he raises are quite valid, in my opinion. They are the complaints on the mind of every nationalist-thinking Jew (or at least the vast majority) with the events taking place today in Israel. It is the post-Oslo consciousness that will only grow and spread as time goes on. The problem is that everyone else seems to offer no solutions, especially those who shout down the practical ideas he presents. They should offer better solutions or better ideas if they disagree. The same old stale thinking is not working, and it's getting old. Because we are just dragged deeper and deeper into the oslo muck with the conventional thinking and conventional approach on the right.
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I think he complains too much and never offers any solution. I have read his postings on Fishmans blog and generally I find his posts annoying... Sorry...
Actually, the blog he writes offers solutions which are quite practical if enough people got behind the ideas. The complaints he raises are quite valid, in my opinion. They are the complaints on the mind of every nationalist-thinking Jew (or at least the vast majority) with the events taking place today in Israel. It is the post-Oslo consciousness that will only grow and spread as time goes on. The problem is that everyone else seems to offer no solutions, especially those who shout down the practical ideas he presents. They should offer better solutions or better ideas if they disagree. The same old stale thinking is not working, and it's getting old. Because we are just dragged deeper and deeper into the oslo muck with the conventional thinking and conventional approach on the right.
Would you consider Vienna Mike in the Kahanist camp? I did not get that impression from his postings in Talkbacks on A7...
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Although you were addressing KWRBT, I'll jump in and say yes. He refers to Rabbi Meir Kahane as the Holy Martyr Rebbe z"l.
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I think he complains too much and never offers any solution. I have read his postings on Fishmans blog and generally I find his posts annoying... Sorry...
Actually, the blog he writes offers solutions which are quite practical if enough people got behind the ideas. The complaints he raises are quite valid, in my opinion. They are the complaints on the mind of every nationalist-thinking Jew (or at least the vast majority) with the events taking place today in Israel. It is the post-Oslo consciousness that will only grow and spread as time goes on. The problem is that everyone else seems to offer no solutions, especially those who shout down the practical ideas he presents. They should offer better solutions or better ideas if they disagree. The same old stale thinking is not working, and it's getting old. Because we are just dragged deeper and deeper into the oslo muck with the conventional thinking and conventional approach on the right.
Would you consider Vienna Mike in the Kahanist camp? I did not get that impression from his postings in Talkbacks on A7...
I try to avoid labeling people. It misses the point. And it reduces complex things to absurd simplicity, encouraging intellectual laziness.
Aside from that, I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the question.
Before, you mentioned his "complaining." The complaining I see from him is about many of the same things Rabbi Kahane complained about in his day (only there are more complaints to amass from events which occurred in the years since the Rabbi passed away). What does that tell you?
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I think he complains too much and never offers any solution. I have read his postings on Fishmans blog and generally I find his posts annoying... Sorry...
Actually, the blog he writes offers solutions which are quite practical if enough people got behind the ideas. The complaints he raises are quite valid, in my opinion. They are the complaints on the mind of every nationalist-thinking Jew (or at least the vast majority) with the events taking place today in Israel. It is the post-Oslo consciousness that will only grow and spread as time goes on. The problem is that everyone else seems to offer no solutions, especially those who shout down the practical ideas he presents. They should offer better solutions or better ideas if they disagree. The same old stale thinking is not working, and it's getting old. Because we are just dragged deeper and deeper into the oslo muck with the conventional thinking and conventional approach on the right.
Would you consider Vienna Mike in the Kahanist camp? I did not get that impression from his postings in Talkbacks on A7...
I try to avoid labeling people. It misses the point. And it reduces complex things to absurd simplicity, encouraging intellectual laziness.
Aside from that, I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the question.
Before, you mentioned his "complaining." The complaining I see from him is about many of the same things Rabbi Kahane complained about in his day (only there are more complaints to amass from events which occurred in the years since the Rabbi passed away). What does that tell you?
Rabbi Kahane, from what I have read and heard from videos, never told Jews to not move to Israel. The whole idea, as far as I understand it, is that the Jews must move to Eretz Yisroel and vote in the existing system in order to get more seats in the government. Rabbi Kahane started his own party which was able to make some headway in starting the process.
I have not read much besides what Vienna Mike writes in his talkbacks. Because I have such a negative opinion of his position I hesitate to read his website. If I was told that I am wrong about my opinion because he really wants a strong Jewish state which attempts to govern righteously with Torah wisdom then I might start to change my opinion. Does he also support the position that the arabs in the land of Israel should be relocated?
It seems that you have given your support for his position and as a result my feelings may soften about what he says.
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Let me tell you all the real story he is a personal Friend of mine who went to Yeshiva with me.
Ephraim is a law abiding citizen of Israel. Traveled to Israel to live in Kfar Tapauch (Where Rabbi Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane Lived) a small Settlement outside of Ariel the capital of the Shemron. Ephraim stayed there to live and Study Torah. He was arrested for no reason. The Israeli gov't said they had reason to believe that he would use force to prevent the evacuation of a Jewish town in the Shemron region. He went back to the states and made Aliyah around the 1st of the Jewish Month of Elul 5769, 2009. Ephraim is a Bal Tsuva (One who becomes Religious later in life) Ephriam was held up at the Tel Aviv Airport and almost deported upon arival despite the fact that he was on a flight with only new Immigrants. They asked him many persional Questions and only let him precede into the country because he said he wouldn't break the law. Ephraim grabbed onto a Poll and refused to let go.
Ephraim then moved into the dorms at the Machon Meir Yeshiva where I meet him. Ephraim was eager to learn Torah and wanted very much to be involved in the struggle for the land of Israel. Ephraim traveled by bus to Kfar Tapuach to spend Shabbat with Yikutiel almost every week. Ephraim would talk about Kahanism, Baruch Goldstein and the Gov't. After a while the people of Kfar Tapuach (Which is considered a Kahanist Settlement) thought he was too extreme for him so they reported him and he was sent a letter by the Shabak (Shin Bet) that he was banned from Judea and Samaria for 6 months. Ephraim ignored it and proceeded to go anyway. Ephraim was Arrested. Ephraim was very load and vocal of his views in morning Class. Almost every line of Talmud they would go over he would comment about Kahane. The Rav was concerned so he went to the he of the Yeshiva. This is when Rosh Yeshevia HaRav Dov Bigon said enough is enough he either stops or he is out of here. The Rosh Yeshiva gave him only 2 days to find a place and he did. Ephraim continued to learn Torah at a different location (I don't know where). Soon there after Ephraim was arrested yet again. Ephraim's Lawyer tried to convince him to take the 3 months in America rather then the torture in an Israeli prison; Ephraim refused but after a couple weeks he agreed. Ehud Barak YS'V signed the order banning him from the country for 3 months. For 2 Weeks Ephraim Maximum Secutity Prision in Beer Sheva denying him of Prayer books or Teffilin.
Ephraim is a very nice and Religious guy. He moved to Israel because he is a Religious Zionist and wants to Live where all Jews belong. He does read the forum from time to time.
If anyone has any more questions please message me.
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Yimach schmo vezichro to Doom, Tina Greco, Kelly Scott, and the retard and his shiksa "girlfriend".
and the retard and his shiksa "girlfriend". who is that
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http://virtualjudah.wordpress.com/2009/01/29/the-vienna-mike-plan/
He was in the U.S. Army for many yrs
« Let’s Take Stock
בגד עברי לעם עברי »
The Vienna Mike Plan
By Vienna Mike
Everyone seems to have a plan to save the State of Israel nowadays.
Tzipi Livni(y”sh) claims she can save Israel by surrendering Yosh to Hamas, so that Hamas can use it as a platform to launch rockets at every major Jewish population center in Eretz Yisrael. While she is at it, she’ll give the Golan to Syria. And if Egypt is really nice, she’ll give them Eilat, too! This way, Israel can have rockets raining on it from all directions at once. It’s great!
Bibi Netanyahu(y”sh) claims that he and not Livni is the best candidate to surrender Yosh to Hamas. According to Bibi(y”sh), it’s better to vote for him and get a constant barrage of Kassams from Yosh than vote for Tzipi(y”sh) and get a constant barrage of Kassams from Yosh and Katyushas from Lebanon and Syrian artillery from the Golan and maybe even Egyptian missiles from Eilat. Hey, maybe he’s right!
Avigdor Lieberman claims he can save Israel by surrendering half the Galilee to Hamas. In exchange, Israel will receive… 56% of Yosh. But wait, doesn’t Israel already control 56% of Yosh? Great plan!
Moshe Feiglin claims that if we vote for Bibi(y”sh), we can strengthen Feiglin. This way, after Bibi(y”sh) has given up Yosh to Hamas, expelling and murdering 200,000+ Jews, Feiglin might get the #10 spot on the Likud Knesset list next time around. Who knows, by the time Israel consists of Greater Tel Aviv, Moshe Feiglin might even be elected Prime Minister amid a barrage of Moslem rockets. We need Moshe Feiglin to preside over the final massacre of the Second Holocaust! Vote Likud!
Ketzaleh has a plan, too. Ketzaleh claims that if we all vote for him, he can get 4 or maybe even 8 seats in the Knesset, where he will rail impotently while Bibi(y”sh), Tzipi(y”sh) and Ehud(y”sh) disarm the Jews of Yosh by force and precipitously withdraw the IDF in the hopes that the Jews either run or are massacred by the Israelis’ Moslem allies. It’s a great plan, it is. Ketzaleh will make such fine speeches while 200,000 Jews are massacred! Why, the eyes of every leftist will tear up and their hearts will rend asunder – for all of five minutes, after which they will go back to celebrating the destruction of the hated mitnachalim who, of course, deserved every bit of it. After all, every Israeli worth his salt knows that the evil settlers are the sole obstacle to peace. Once they are all dead, rainbows will erupt, birds will sing, peace, love and harmony will rule the Land and fuzzy pink bunnies will emerge hopping from under every bush and rock to spread good cheer, joy and fairy dust with every itsy bitsy hop!
So, given all these brilliant plans, does Vienna Mike have a Plan to Save the State of Israel? Vienna Mike must keep up with the times!
Well, dear readers, you might be disappointed. Vienna Mike does not have a Plan to Save the State of Israel. Indeed, Vienna Mike does not believe that the State of Israel deserves saving or even has a right to exist. Vienna Mike does, however, believe that HaYishuv HaYehudi B’Eretz Yisrael, the community of the Jewish People in the Holy Land, is worth saving. Vienna Mike believes that the YISHUV has a right to exist in the Holy Land. Vienna Mike believes that only the Yishuv, acting in accordance with the will of Hashem as expressed in His Holy Torah, has any right to exercise political power and sovereignty in the Land of Israel. Here, therefore, is the Vienna Mike Plan to Save the Jews of the Holy Land:
– See that goyish Israeli State? Reject it! Reject everything about it! Reject its authority, its legitimacy, its symbols, its army, its police, its courts, its flag, its anthem, its music, its art, even its manner of dress. Reject its very right to exist. It’s a foreign occupier on Jewish Land. Draw a line between it and yourself. Reject it and eject it and build a Jewish State in the Land that Medinat Israel cannot hold and does not want. A Jew is not and cannot be an Israeli. Our country is Medinat Yehudah.
–See those green-suited kapos beating Jewish children with clubs? Throw them out of your country! Chase them out of Medinat Yehudah! They do not belong here. It does not matter if they wear kippot or not, if they have tzitizit or not, if they lay tefilin or not. It does not matter whether or not they keep kosher or keep shabbos or speak Hebrew. Jews do not expel Jews. Jews do not beat Jewish children with clubs. Jews do not give up pieces of Hashem’s Holy Land to murderous goyim. Those who do these things are Israelis, not Jews. Send them packing back to Israel! Curse them, spit at them, stone them, beat them, scream at them to go away. And if they refuse to go away, then kill them and kill those who give them orders. Soak the Land with their blood. It’s good fertilizer.
–See those Moslem Bnei Amalek baying for Jewish blood? Exterminate them and exterminate those who try to protect them! He who stands with Amalek IS Amalek, regardless of what language he speaks, what uniform he wears or what religion he professes to follow.
–See those unviable suburbs with paper houses, euphemistically dubbed “settlements” by those who refuse to know any better? You probably live in one. Turn them into fortresses! Fortify your homes and communities. Make them self-sufficient. Grow your own food, dig your own wells, make your own electricity, your own tools, your own weapons and fuel. Make your own clothes and make your own identity. What you cannot make, buy. What you cannot buy, expropriate by force or by stealth. Medinat Yehudah will live or die by the mercy of Hashem, the strength of her fortresses and the power of her arms. Israeli “settlements” are death. The fortresses of Medinat Yehudah are life. Choose life!
–See that gaggle of kids with orange ribbons? Turn them into an army! The Israeli army does not provide you with security and it never will. All it does is protect the Amalekites and facilitate Islamic terror with its wishy-washy policies, its “purity of arms”, its “limited operations”, its “appropriate response” and its “enforcement of order”. It’s time for a Jewish Army to defend the Jewish State. It’s time for Tzvah HaIvri, the Army of Life, to replace the Ra’al, the Army of Suicide!
–See that monolithic Israeli elite united in its hatred for the dati leumi who threaten its power and existence? Split it in half! Demand your own State and let the elite rule its Israeli Bolshevik paradise. Let them have the Tel Aviv they want. Let them have Haifa. Let them have the coastal strip that houses 70% of Israel’s population. Offer them a deal – they can have the beach to schtup on and no borders with any Arab state. Medinat Yehudah will take the rest. Medinat Yehudah will fight. Israel can party. Watch the Israeli elites fight each other and watch Medinat Yehudah win!
–See that array of lemming communities full of addled fools who think that they are Israeli even though the Israelis have been beating them with clubs for 20 years? See the mindless horde of robots who serve in the IDF even though the IDF demolishes their very homes and schuls, throws their children out of windows and sexually assaults their teenage daughters? Wake up the lemmings! Deprogram the robots! Take the communities of Yosh and build from them a Jewish State!
THAT is the Vienna Mike Plan for National Salvation. It is simple. It is realistic. It is viable. It is the only way. This plan is the only plan dedicated to victory. This plan is the only plan that can split the monolithic Israeli enemy, create an independent Jewish State in the Holy Land for the first time in 2000 years and avert the Second Holocaust.
Dear readers, we are up against the wall. Time is quickly running out. The Jews of the Holy Land face extermination at the hands of the Israeli State and its Moslem allies. Not too long ago, another nation stood on the brink of extinction. Its leader, Winston Churchill, said then what we must repeat now. Our only answer must be total struggle and our sole aim – victory; victory by any means; victory despite all obstacles; victory no matter the cost. For without victory there is no survival.
4 Shevat 5769
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I think he complains too much and never offers any solution. I have read his postings on Fishmans blog and generally I find his posts annoying... Sorry...
Actually, the blog he writes offers solutions which are quite practical if enough people got behind the ideas. The complaints he raises are quite valid, in my opinion. They are the complaints on the mind of every nationalist-thinking Jew (or at least the vast majority) with the events taking place today in Israel. It is the post-Oslo consciousness that will only grow and spread as time goes on. The problem is that everyone else seems to offer no solutions, especially those who shout down the practical ideas he presents. They should offer better solutions or better ideas if they disagree. The same old stale thinking is not working, and it's getting old. Because we are just dragged deeper and deeper into the oslo muck with the conventional thinking and conventional approach on the right.
Would you consider Vienna Mike in the Kahanist camp? I did not get that impression from his postings in Talkbacks on A7...
I try to avoid labeling people. It misses the point. And it reduces complex things to absurd simplicity, encouraging intellectual laziness.
Aside from that, I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the question.
Before, you mentioned his "complaining." The complaining I see from him is about many of the same things Rabbi Kahane complained about in his day (only there are more complaints to amass from events which occurred in the years since the Rabbi passed away). What does that tell you?
Rabbi Kahane, from what I have read and heard from videos, never told Jews to not move to Israel.
Of course. On this I happen to think this fellow is mistaken. But not everyone is going to agree on everything. I think if you read his site in detail you'll see that we at JTF have many similar points of view, and he is simply floating out creative solutions since the conventional thinking has failed. This is exactly why I prefer not to label someone because it's a very lazy exercise. If he is wrong about this, then you label him as "non-Kahanist" and discredit anything else he says? What if he has many other valuable things to say and other ideas worth engaging?
The whole idea, as far as I understand it, is that the Jews must move to Eretz Yisroel and vote in the existing system in order to get more seats in the government. Rabbi Kahane started his own party which was able to make some headway in starting the process.
He argues that since Rabbi Kahane was banned and then murdered by arabs, and his son was also murdered by Arabs, that any attempt to carry out this "whole idea" you mention will always fail because the regime will make sure it fails, including by banning any movement or party that actually poses a threat of succeeding - or even helping the arab nazi peace partner murder the politicians. He also argues that Rabbi Kahane himself began to change his vision of this particular 'whole idea' as a policy due to the Kach-banning and that this is reflected in his last work, "Revolution or Referendum."
If I was told that I am wrong about my opinion because he really wants a strong Jewish state which attempts to govern righteously with Torah wisdom then I might start to change my opinion.
It's abundantly clear from his writings that this is the entire goal of any medinat yehudah.
Does he also support the position that the arabs in the land of Israel should be relocated?
That and nuking Iran and other muslim nazi countries that threaten Israel.
It seems that you have given your support for his position and as a result my feelings may soften about what he says.
I'm not saying I agree with everything he writes but I think what he advocates is deserving of serious attention. And I think the overall concept of Medinat yehudah may be a necessary solution if it can gain popularity.
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Let me tell you all the real story he is a personal Friend of mine who went to Yeshiva with me.
Ephraim is a law abiding citizen of Israel. Traveled to Israel to live in Kfar Tapauch (Where Rabbi Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane Lived) a small Settlement outside of Ariel the capital of the Shemron. Ephraim stayed there to live and Study Torah. He was arrested for no reason. The Israeli gov't said they had reason to believe that he would use force to prevent the evacuation of a Jewish town in the Shemron region. He went back to the states and made Aliyah around the 1st of the Jewish Month of Elul 5769, 2009. Ephraim is a Bal Tsuva (One who becomes Religious later in life) Ephriam was held up at the Tel Aviv Airport and almost deported upon arival despite the fact that he was on a flight with only new Immigrants. They asked him many persional Questions and only let him precede into the country because he said he wouldn't break the law. Ephraim grabbed onto a Poll and refused to let go.
Ephraim then moved into the dorms at the Machon Meir Yeshiva where I meet him. Ephraim was eager to learn Torah and wanted very much to be involved in the struggle for the land of Israel. Ephraim traveled by bus to Kfar Tapuach to spend Shabbat with Yikutiel almost every week. Ephraim would talk about Kahanism, Baruch Goldstein and the Gov't. After a while the people of Kfar Tapuach (Which is considered a Kahanist Settlement) thought he was too extreme for him so they reported him and he was sent a letter by the Shabak (Shin Bet) that he was banned from Judea and Samaria for 6 months. Ephraim ignored it and proceeded to go anyway. Ephraim was Arrested. Ephraim was very load and vocal of his views in morning Class. Almost every line of Talmud they would go over he would comment about Kahane. The Rav was concerned so he went to the he of the Yeshiva. This is when Rosh Yeshevia HaRav Dov Bigon said enough is enough he either stops or he is out of here. The Rosh Yeshiva gave him only 2 days to find a place and he did. Ephraim continued to learn Torah at a different location (I don't know where). Soon there after Ephraim was arrested yet again. Ephraim's Lawyer tried to convince him to take the 3 months in America rather then the torture in an Israeli prison; Ephraim refused but after a couple weeks he agreed. Ehud Barak YS'V signed the order banning him from the country for 3 months. For 2 Weeks Ephraim Maximum Secutity Prision in Beer Sheva denying him of Prayer books or Teffilin.
Ephraim is a very nice and Religious guy. He moved to Israel because he is a Religious Zionist and wants to Live where all Jews belong. He does read the forum from time to time.
If anyone has any more questions please message me.
Appreciate it.
So you're saying the Kfar Tapuah people reported him? Yekutiel or other residents? I don't get it. After this whole affair, Guzofsky wrote a long letter explaining how the informants at Machon Meir had reported Ephraim... Was that merely a deflection of the blame and the projection of his own informing onto others?
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Yimach schmo vezichro to Doom, Tina Greco, Kelly Scott, and the retard and his shiksa "girlfriend".
Knock it off please. The lady who you're referring to is a genuine convert.
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Mishmaat: You used to hate her more than anybody else on the forum.
David: Excuse me!?!?!? You are good friends with a Guzofskyite Nazi who refers to Chaim as "Vancy" and supported Tina Greco?
WTF from both of you?
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בס''ד
I would ask our members not to turn this thread into a personal feud among fellow JTFers or a place for insults.
If Ephraim were a real religious Jew, let alone a Kahanist, he would never dare express hatred and contempt for someone who spent five and a half years in prison and has sacrificed 30 years of his life to liberate him and his family from Soviet Russia. Ephraim couldn't take 2 weeks in prison. After just 2 weeks, they broke him and he came running back to America. But he ran a forum where he expressed non-stop hatred and contempt for someone who spent five and a half years in the worst prisons of America. On the forum that he and Guzofsky ran, a handful of petty, jealous and evil phonies spent years calling me a Nazi, a racist, a terrorist etc. etc.
I will not forgive Ephraim and Guzofsky for this unless they publicly acknowledge all of the wrong which they did and publicly apologize for their vicious slander. Otherwise they will answer for their wicked behavior either in this world or on Yom HaDin (the Day of Judgement) or both.
BTW the young lady which Dr. Brennan Fan refers to sent me a private message on this forum and asked me to forgive her for her past actions and statements. I am usually a forgiving person if someone who does me an injustice requests forgiveness. So I have forgiven her.
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Chaim, I know that she supposedly apologized. The reason why I do not accept her apology is because she continues to say horrible things about JTF on her "forum" (which is her and her retarded lapdog).