JTF.ORG Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chai on September 14, 2010, 05:23:11 AM

Title: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chai on September 14, 2010, 05:23:11 AM
 :laugh: :laugh: OMG that would be soooo awesome !!
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Rubystars on September 14, 2010, 05:58:24 AM
If he did that then I might take back saying he was a coward, especially if he did so openly. It might get us some media coverage.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Debbie Shafer on September 14, 2010, 05:05:45 PM
This would be a good idea!
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 14, 2010, 06:55:33 PM
So long as there is no missionary activity. I hesitate to invite any non-Jewish religious figures to JTF because they may take advantage and try to proselytize.

I have never watched this pastor for just this reason. Also Jews should never rely on non-Jews for the redemption of the Jewish people.... Never ever..

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: TheCoon on September 14, 2010, 08:24:54 PM
So long as there is no missionary activity. I hesitate to invite any non-Jewish religious figures to JTF because they may take advantage and try to proselytize.

I have never watched this pastor for just this reason. Also Jews should never rely on non-Jews for the redemption of the Jewish people.... Never ever..



Guilty until proven innocent, eh?
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Rubystars on September 14, 2010, 08:27:33 PM
So long as there is no missionary activity. I hesitate to invite any non-Jewish religious figures to JTF because they may take advantage and try to proselytize.

I have never watched this pastor for just this reason. Also Jews should never rely on non-Jews for the redemption of the Jewish people.... Never ever..



Admit it you dont' want ANY Christian on this board because you think like Ron does that Christians are as bad as Muslims and the the NT is like Mein Kampf. You're just a little more diplomatic about it than he is.


It's only the Christian evangelicals in America which have kept the antisemitic leadership of the USA somwhat in check.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on September 14, 2010, 08:28:43 PM
So long as there is no missionary activity. I hesitate to invite any non-Jewish religious figures to JTF because they may take advantage and try to proselytize.

I have never watched this pastor for just this reason. Also Jews should never rely on non-Jews for the redemption of the Jewish people.... Never ever..



Admit it you dont' want ANY Christian on this board because you think like Ron does that Christians are as bad as Muslims and the the NT is like Mein Kampf. You're just a little more diplomatic about it than he is.


It's only the Christian evangelicals in America which have kept the antisemitic leadership of the USA somwhat in check.

I gotta admit Muman has to be honest about his ideology, no apologies made for healthy hatred'

The Evangelical missionaries murdered more Jewish souls than Islam
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 14, 2010, 08:30:53 PM
So long as there is no missionary activity. I hesitate to invite any non-Jewish religious figures to JTF because they may take advantage and try to proselytize.  

Well, don't you think that we would make it clear ahead of time that we don't allow that and otherwise they can't join with us?   I would think that would be something which would be clarified ahead of time, so that they know the principles of our movement and what they are getting into.  If they don't like that, they simply would not join, and we don't want them.   And if they ever did join by lying to us and then try to missionize anyway, we would boot their donkey in no time....   So personally I wouldn't be so worried about something like that.  If that was an issue, the guy never joins in the first place.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 14, 2010, 10:03:23 PM
Gee whiz this was one passing suggestion that is never likely to take place... do the usual Christian-haters absolutely need to take advantage of it?
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 14, 2010, 11:11:28 PM
I do not appreciate being called a Christian hater. I do not hate... I simply want to preserve the Jewish people and our sages made it clear that once Jews start to work with non-Jews it leads to assimilation. Unfortunately, as I have explained so many times, my family has been virtually decimated due to the assimilation which has occurred only within three generations of being in America.

I do not hate non-Jews. I just know that Christians have a knack for trying to proselytize. One Shabbat during my morning davening some Christian missionaries came and tried to discuss their savior with me. Of course I had none of that and explained that it was Shabbat and I intended to worship G-d and not their savior.

I apologize if people perceive this as hatred, it certainly is not intended as such.

 
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 14, 2010, 11:42:32 PM
I simply want to preserve the Jewish people and our sages made it clear that once Jews start to work with non-Jews it leads to assimilation.


Oh, really?  Where did the sages say that?   

I await the citation because I've never heard this.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Confederate Kahanist on September 15, 2010, 12:26:46 AM
Pastor who?

And I don't mean DR Who
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 12:32:25 AM
I simply want to preserve the Jewish people and our sages made it clear that once Jews start to work with non-Jews it leads to assimilation.


Oh, really?  Where did the sages say that?   

I await the citation because I've never heard this.


KWRBT,

I do not want to further the flames on this subject in this forum. I will send you my response concerning this.

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 15, 2010, 12:49:10 AM
I do not appreciate being called a Christian hater. I do not hate... I simply want to preserve the Jewish people and our sages made it clear that once Jews start to work with non-Jews it leads to assimilation. Unfortunately, as I have explained so many times, my family has been virtually decimated due to the assimilation which has occurred only within three generations of being in America.

I do not hate non-Jews. I just know that Christians have a knack for trying to proselytize. One Shabbat during my morning davening some Christian missionaries came and tried to discuss their savior with me. Of course I had none of that and explained that it was Shabbat and I intended to worship G-d and not their savior.

I apologize if people perceive this as hatred, it certainly is not intended as such.

 
You just don't get it, do you.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 12:57:49 AM
I do not appreciate being called a Christian hater. I do not hate... I simply want to preserve the Jewish people and our sages made it clear that once Jews start to work with non-Jews it leads to assimilation. Unfortunately, as I have explained so many times, my family has been virtually decimated due to the assimilation which has occurred only within three generations of being in America.

I do not hate non-Jews. I just know that Christians have a knack for trying to proselytize. One Shabbat during my morning davening some Christian missionaries came and tried to discuss their savior with me. Of course I had none of that and explained that it was Shabbat and I intended to worship G-d and not their savior.

I apologize if people perceive this as hatred, it certainly is not intended as such.

 
You just don't get it, do you.

I guess I don't.... That name is not one of HIS names according to our beliefs.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 12:59:39 AM
I simply want to preserve the Jewish people and our sages made it clear that once Jews start to work with non-Jews it leads to assimilation.


Oh, really?  Where did the sages say that?   

I await the citation because I've never heard this.


And let me clarify... I was imprecise in my phraseology. I did not mean 'work with non-Jews', I mean 'socialized with non-Jews'... I have no problem working with non-Jews. I have managed that for many years.

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 15, 2010, 01:03:49 AM
I'm sorry Chai, it's not your fault, but I think this thread needs to get moved to the Hon Winged Members section.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 01:15:39 AM
I'm sorry Chai, it's not your fault, but I think this thread needs to get moved to the Hon Winged Members section.

Do you want me to do this? I don't think that anyone said anything out of line... I certainly don't consider what I wrote to be offensive.

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 02:04:27 AM
Did I say anything wrong here? I don't want to do anything to offend anyone and I re-read what was written and still don't see anything offensive...

If not then this should be moved back to the general section.

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chaim Ben Pesach on September 15, 2010, 02:56:52 AM
בס''ד

I moved this topic back to the General Discussion section. Nothing was said here that warrants moving an entire topic off of the main forum.

I wish people would not turn threads like this into unnecessary religious confrontations.

Obviously if the Pastor were to use this forum to missionize, we would not allow that. Anyone who has been on this forum during the past four years knows our policy.

However, if the Pastor wished to join the forum not to missionize but to join our campaign to expose the truth about Nazi Islam, I would welcome his presence.

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chai on September 15, 2010, 03:00:19 AM
1.Wow that was a bag of worms. I dont think this pastor is the kind that goes out and converts people  like Jews for Jesus or Messianics that try to convert  ignorant Jews. There are also messianic Christians  that say Jews do not need to believe in Jesus or try to convert people actively.

2.How can we get in touch with this pastor?

3.-We need to be wary of EVERYONE on this forum Jews and Gentiles alike. I dont want anything to happen to my fellow JTFers. Thank you Chaim.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Rubystars on September 15, 2010, 05:56:21 AM
I do not appreciate being called a Christian hater. I do not hate... I simply want to preserve the Jewish people and our sages made it clear that once Jews start to work with non-Jews it leads to assimilation.

Well considering how many non-Jews are on this board do you consider your soul in great danger every time you come here?

Quote
I do not hate non-Jews. I just know that Christians have a knack for trying to proselytize.

I've seen some Jews aggressively proselytize too. Oh they would deny till they're blue in the face, because they say they don't proselytize Judaism, but they proselytize Judaism light, aka Noahidism, and some preach that Gentiles will go to hell if they don't follow it. I really don't see much difference there in the potential risk for conversion. I mean if you tell someone their religion is wrong day after day then eventually it might do the same amount of damage that actively proselytizing them would do. Mostly I've seen this on Pal Talk but I've seen it some here too.

Quote
One Shabbat during my morning davening some Christian missionaries came and tried to discuss their savior with me. Of course I had none of that and explained that it was Shabbat and I intended to worship G-d and not their savior.

I apologize if people perceive this as hatred, it certainly is not intended as such.


Hopefully after that they left you in peace
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chai on September 15, 2010, 06:38:36 AM
I do not appreciate being called a Christian hater. I do not hate... I simply want to preserve the Jewish people and our sages made it clear that once Jews start to work with non-Jews it leads to assimilation.

Well considering how many non-Jews are on this board do you consider your soul in great danger every time you come here?

Quote
I do not hate non-Jews. I just know that Christians have a knack for trying to proselytize.

I've seen some Jews aggressively proselytize too. Oh they would deny till they're blue in the face, because they say they don't proselytize Judaism, but they proselytize Judaism light, aka Noahidism, and some preach that Gentiles will go to hell if they don't follow it. I really don't see much difference there in the potential risk for conversion. I mean if you tell someone their religion is wrong day after day then eventually it might do the same amount of damage that actively proselytizing them would do. Mostly I've seen this on Pal Talk but I've seen it some here too.

Quote
One Shabbat during my morning davening some Christian missionaries came and tried to discuss their savior with me. Of course I had none of that and explained that it was Shabbat and I intended to worship G-d and not their savior.

I apologize if people perceive this as hatred, it certainly is not intended as such.


Hopefully after that they left you in peace

My dear Rubystars,

I am very interested in the issue of aggressive Jewish proselytizing and their threats of gentiles going to hell for not converting, what organization does such a thing ? Where do I find them?

The beauty of the Jewish religion is that it gives us free will , because it does not threaten people with telling them they will go to hell, to do so would be a form of mental rape. G-d would never put a gun to your head and say obey the 613 commandments or die! (or even the 7  Jewish light as you say) If you look in the Bible, even after the worst sins ,G-d never uttered the threat of hell , he did however give the thereat of exile , punishment  ..but never eternal hell for such things. Even with Adam, G-d was like you will die (not burn in hell) and even then did not kill him. The G-d of Israel is merciful to all , and it does not matter what you call him, just don't hurt people.

Also to me, Christians are Noahids that are just alitte over  eager for redemption (no big deal). Remember most societies are very Noahidish as it is not acceptable to murder , eat the live limb of an animal  just courts belief  in a higher power etc. Yet don't keep the 613 commandments .. that sounds like Noahidism to me.

BTW , a non Jewish soul can easily be  more pure then a Jewish one. The reason for this is since Jews have more commandments, they will surely make errors, these errors corrupt our soul (such as eating non kosher). Jews believe Gentiles are made in Gods image (Adam). Your soul Ruby Stars I am sure is more pure then mine. That is why it is a moot point for Non-Jews to convert, Unlike Islam that wants you to submit to them in every way.
I would love to Debate these people Its way to easy to prove them wrong. Where does it say you go to hell for not being Jewish or even religious for that matter.

There is no point in preaching Noahidisim because most people keep them with out even realizing it.

I am religious because I choose to of my own free will ,with the knowledge that even if I don't I wont burn for eternity. Thats the Judaism I know.


I would rather burn in hell for eternity than to obey a cruel G-d like the one they described to you.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on September 15, 2010, 06:52:39 AM
Gee whiz this was one passing suggestion that is never likely to take place... do the usual Christian-haters absolutely need to take advantage of it?

You say it like it's some kind of an insult or slur

btw I'll move the discussion about co-operation to the Jewish Idea sub-forum, it's a very important and interesting subject
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on September 15, 2010, 06:56:08 AM
I would rather burn in hell for eternity than to obey a cruel G-d like the one they described to you.

Most of our Sages would have never defined a Xtian to be a Righteous Gentile except for Da'at Miut (minority opinion) of Rabbi Meiri.
Would you call them "cruel" just for disagreeing with their (majority) opinion?
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chai on September 15, 2010, 07:09:41 AM
The Torah was not given to them.

I mean you have to put it in perpective .

Im my home on every door post I am reminded that G-d took us out of Egypt.

Everyday I put on my heart and head that G-d saved us.

Everyday I put on tzizit with techilet to remember the mizvot

3 Times a day I  recite the shema that speaks of this

3 times a day I am reminded to pass this on to my children

on pesach i am reminded of this

on sukkot

on shabbat when we read the Torah

There is a reason for this ! B/c G-d knows whats in our heart and that there are temptations and without these laws lest we would  forget . Surely Gentiles who  have no such laws to help them cannot be obligated
Surely gentiles that never even heard of a Jews of these laws cannot be held accountable. So yes , They are righteous esp the gentiles here on JTF.

It would be a sick and perverted god that would label a kind moral person unrighteous because his philosophy of god is not perfect or never had our philosophy of god ingrained in us.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: mord on September 15, 2010, 07:21:27 AM
WHO IS THE PASTOR
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on September 15, 2010, 08:25:06 AM
Re:  "I am very interested in the issue of aggressive Jewish proselytizing and their threats of gentiles going to hell for not converting, what organization does such a thing ? Where do I find them?

Actually, Chai, there was a time in ancient Jewish history when one of the Jewish Kingdoms actively proselytized Israel's neighboring nations under threat of force.
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Re:  G-d would never put a gun to your head and say obey the 613 commandments or die! (or even the 7  Jewish light as you say) If you look in the Bible, even after the worst sins ,G-d never uttered the threat of hell , he did however give the thereat of exile , punishment  ..but never eternal hell for such things. Even with Adam, G-d was like you will die (not burn in hell) and even then did not kill him. The G-d of Israel is merciful to all , and it does not matter what you call him, just don't hurt people.

G-d at Sinai offered a Blessing and a Curse to the Jewish people.  Life and prosperity for obeying the 613 Commandments, and Death, Banishment, and Punishment should the Jews refuse Torah and turn from it.

If you believe The G-d of Israel is merciful to all then you've got a lot of explaining to do to the Jews living in Europe in the 1930's and 1940's, and for that matter you've got a lot of explaining to do to all the Jews living in Israel and elsewhere killed or maimed by Nazi terrorist Muslims since 1948.
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Re:  "I am religious because I choose to of my own free will ,with the knowledge that even if I don't I wont burn for eternity. Thats the Judaism I know.
I would rather burn in hell for eternity than to obey a cruel G-d like the one they described to you.


I have yet to meet a Jew who speaks like this that has even the slightest idea what it is that Torah teaches; let alone what any other faiths teach and believe.

I was taught by my synagogue and parents that the G-d of the Jews meant Love, Mercy, and Goodness, as opposed to the Christian version of G-d which meant Hell and Damnation and Threats.

Then, I read the entire Torah and studied parts of Talmud, and was struck with the realization that I'd been 'sold a bill of goods' by people who didn't know what the hell they were talking about and had themselves never actually read Torah cover to cover.

The G-d of the Jews is anything but a "nice guy in the sky" who could care less whether His Chosen People cares to believe and follow his dictates.

Nor is the Jewish G-d a kind and merciful Judge who would never destroy and "burn" the soul of man.

Just the opposite is true - He intends to destroy all that can not be made Holy.

And Jews also believe that even though we individuals have "free will", G-d has already determined everything that was, is, and shall be, as well as already knows what our "free will" will choose for us at every single moment of our lives. 
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chai on September 15, 2010, 08:40:11 AM
"Actually, Chai, there was a time in ancient Jewish history when one of the Jewish Kingdoms actively proselytized Israel's neighboring nations under threat of force."------ Ive heard this actually. Its hard to find info on this , if you can find it that be great id like to look at it and see the motivation behind it .. It would not be a sincere conversion im not sure how they did that..


As for the rest of what you say I had the same feeling you had in some of the things you said. Rabbi Kahanes book "the Jewish Idea" puts a lot of things in perspective , have you read it?
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on September 15, 2010, 08:43:30 AM
Re:  "Most of our Sages would have never defined a Xtian to be a Righteous Gentile except for Da'at Miut (minority opinion) of Rabbi Meiri. "

And Rashi stated that Islam was more acceptably Kosher than Christianity because it acknowledges only One Indivisible G-d which has no "Son" and it also forbids any images or idols.

And our Sages also concluded that G-d speaks not only to the Jew but to all non-Jews as well; only to Jews G-d speaks directly - to all others He speaks "as through a veil".

And I myself have more than once been strongly rebuked by Chasidic Rabbis for criticizing or lecturing others about the 'misguided' beliefs they might hold, when my only concern should be for my own spiritual condition.


Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Rubystars on September 15, 2010, 08:44:04 AM
I am very interested in the issue of aggressive Jewish proselytizing and their threats of gentiles going to hell for not converting, what organization does such a thing ? Where do I find them?

It's individuals that do these things. I haven't run across any Jewish organization that would make a clear statement like that and the vast majority of Jews don't act like that, but there is a segment who do, and I've been around them. Some like Ron hate Christians and they openly admit it, and will do anything and everything to undermine Christian people's faith. I don't find it particularly healthy for a Christian who may not be strongly grounded to even be on a place even like this, that is supposed to be free of missionizing, because they will be exposed to all kinds of material trying to teach them how wrong they are and they may not have the understanding to resist it.

Quote
The beauty of the Jewish religion is that it gives us free will , because it does not threaten people with telling them they will go to hell, to do so would be a form of mental rape.

I don't think most Jewish people would do anything like that. All I'm saying is that some would, and do. I've seen it for myself.

Quote
G-d would never put a gun to your head and say obey the 613 commandments or die! (or even the 7  Jewish light as you say) If you look in the Bible, even after the worst sins ,G-d never uttered the threat of hell , he did however give the thereat of exile , punishment  ..but never eternal hell for such things. Even with Adam, G-d was like you will die (not burn in hell) and even then did not kill him. The G-d of Israel is merciful to all , and it does not matter what you call him, just don't hurt people.

You're a decent person and most Jews are. You might not have even been able to see the attacks that have been made on sincere Christians because many of them are quite subtle but effective nonetheless, and they were not done by you.

Quote
Also to me, Christians are Noahids that are just alitte over  eager for redemption (no big deal). Remember most societies are very Noahidish as it is not acceptable to murder , eat the live limb of an animal  just courts belief  in a higher power etc. Yet don't keep the 613 commandments .. that sounds like Noahidism to me.

That sort of makes sense. I don't have a problem with you saying that either. You're not the type who is bothering me at all. Most Jews on here are not. I don't want people to try to convince me that I have to give up my most precious, core beliefs, when this is a place where we should be working together with mutual respect. There is a time and place for debates about the merits of one religion or another, but I don't think this is the place for that unless we're talking about our common enemy, Islam.

Quote
BTW , a non Jewish soul can easily be  more pure then a Jewish one. The reason for this is since Jews have more commandments, they will surely make errors, these errors corrupt our soul (such as eating non kosher). Jews believe Gentiles are made in Gods image (Adam). Your soul Ruby Stars I am sure is more pure then mine. That is why it is a moot point for Non-Jews to convert, Unlike Islam that wants you to submit to them in every way.
I would love to Debate these people Its way to easy to prove them wrong. Where does it say you go to hell for not being Jewish or even religious for that matter.

You and most Jews do not claim such things. However some few do try to say that if I am a Christian that I will be judged by God very unfavorably regardless of whether or not I try to be a good person and honor God and help Jews. It's these people that I consider to be missionizers. And they're not trying to convert me to Judaism, but to Judaism-light.  In this way they deny that they ever try to convert people.

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There is no point in preaching Noahidisim because most people keep them with out even realizing it.

There are people that argue fiercely that anyone who follows Christianity does not qualify under that umbrella. I tend to agree with you though that as a general understanding I have of them, that most people do by default follow most of the Jewish rules for Gentiles anyway.

Quote
I am religious because I choose to of my own free will ,with the knowledge that even if I don't I wont burn for eternity. Thats the Judaism I know.


I would rather burn in hell for eternity than to obey a cruel G-d like the one they described to you.

Well again I want to emphasize that it's not most Jews that do this, but it's a few, and I've seen it on every Jewish forum and Jewish chat I've ever been to. The attack on Christians who are pro-Israel. Most people in every place were not like this, but there are always a few, and the danger for someone weak in their Christian faith is real.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: TheCoon on September 15, 2010, 08:52:55 AM
I do not appreciate being called a Christian hater. I do not hate... I simply want to preserve the Jewish people and our sages made it clear that once Jews start to work with non-Jews it leads to assimilation. Unfortunately, as I have explained so many times, my family has been virtually decimated due to the assimilation which has occurred only within three generations of being in America.

I do not hate non-Jews. I just know that Christians have a knack for trying to proselytize. One Shabbat during my morning davening some Christian missionaries came and tried to discuss their savior with me. Of course I had none of that and explained that it was Shabbat and I intended to worship G-d and not their savior.

I apologize if people perceive this as hatred, it certainly is not intended as such.

What really gets me with your attitude is that you seem unable to distinguish different Christian attitudes. There are Christians who proselytize and those who don't. No Christians here would do so to Jews ever yet you go out of your way to insult us every chance you get by lumping us in with those who do. I know of very few Christian ministers that attempt to prostelytize to Jews in this day and age. Those that are more conservative and would be considered allies of JTF would never do so.

You say Christians have a knack for trying to prostelytize and someone else said Christians have "destroyed more Jewish souls" than muslims. I'd say Jews have done a better job destroying the souls of their own people than any non-Jewish people. See what I did there? I lumped all Jews into one monolithic group just as you do to Christians. It's not very nice.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on September 15, 2010, 08:55:09 AM
Re:  "Rabbi Kahanes book "the Jewish Idea" puts a lot of things in perspective , have you read it?

Yes.

I've read it along with his other writings.

Rabbi Kahane encouraged Torah Jews to ally with non-Jews who supported our right to live freely as Jews in the U.S.A., as well as our G-d given right to The Land of Israel.

As regards "the unrighteous", there's no need to look in the direction of non-Jews, as there is no shortage of "unrighteous" among the Jews right here on this forum.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 08:57:34 AM
Massah,

I guess you missed great portions of the Torah which magnify the awesome goodness of Hashem, most of Exodus and throughout Bamidbar...

I don't think you are going to High Holiday services where we repeat many times the 13 middot of Mercy, the 13 names of Hashem which we use to beseech mercy from the Creator and the one who released us from Egyptian bondage.

You concentrate on the negative aspects of Hashem too much. True one of his names is Elokim, the name of strict justice, and it was with this name that he creates the Universe. But the aspect of mercy kicked in just before the seventh day, when Adam and Eve ate the fruit. He did not destroy them immediately, as he promised, but provided time for them to do Teshuva {which I don't think they did properly and wasn't rectified till Mattan Torah}...

Hashem is indeed merciful. And there is a lot of Torah which supports this position. I just don't know how you missed out on it.

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: TheCoon on September 15, 2010, 09:21:18 AM
I'll put it like this. When someone lumps all Christians in with these missionary street-corner freaks it's like lumping Jews in with the neturei karta scum.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on September 15, 2010, 09:24:15 AM
I'll put it like this. When someone lumps all Christians in with these missionary street-corner freaks it's like lumping Jews in with the neturei karta scum.

While Neturei Karta's ideas are totally off base and have no base whatsoever in Judaism, Xtian scriptures clearly advocate mission and despise for those who did not accept the "Evangelium".
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 15, 2010, 09:29:52 AM
While Neturei Karta's ideas are totally off base and have no base whatsoever in Judaism, Xtian scriptures clearly advocate mission and despise for those who did not accept the "Evangelium".
Show me some verses in the New Testament that advocate or agree with the Crusades or what Martin Luther did, please.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on September 15, 2010, 09:46:19 AM
Re:  "I guess you missed great portions of the Torah which magnify the awesome goodness of Hashem, most of Exodus and throughout Bamidbar..."

No.

I didn't miss out on any Torah portions.

I spent years reading it thoroughly and consulting with Lubavitcher Rabbis on portions which I found difficult to understand or comprehend.

The synagogue "services" we attend in 2010 have little if anything to do with Torah Judaism worship as it was practiced in Jerusalem at the Temple.

If anything, the "public rituals" and prayers spoken in unison by the congregation or in response to the scripture read by our rabbis are all developments influenced more by two thousand years of Exile accommodating Jews to gentile cultural religious patterns.

Our synagogues today in the Western world are "businesses" which sell "memberships" to those in the Jewish communities able and willing to pay for the "good seats" during the Holidays.

The Board of Trustees of the schuls and the Temple Presidents (usually chosen from among the wealthiest Doctors or Attorneys from the community as a "prestigious" position) all tell the Rabbis what it is they are going to say and what is to be included in the services which is "acceptable" to the paying members of the synagogues.

American synagogues are even regulated and controlled by the IRS and Federal Government, allowed tax-free status only if forbidden to express political opinions or take a political position.

It should therefore come as no surprise that after two thousand years of such "community worship" our services as well as our Hebrew schools are teaching a very "watered down" version of Judaism and G-d which is "acceptable" to a modern technological and educated society - one which "doesn't make waves" with the political status quo - a Judaism where a Rabbi is forbidden to teach Torah which demands that Jews renounce "The Peace Process" and annihilate the Muslim enemies of the Jewish People.

I must have also missed all the portions in Torah CONDEMNING the descendants of Ham to be CURSED for their ancestor's sin, and be servants, as well as the servants of servants FOREVER.

That sure doesn't sound like "Mr. Nice Guy in the Sky" shedding goodness, mercy and forgiveness on all creation.

In the modern Jewish synagogues, gone are the Curse and the Punishments offered at Sinai.  Gone is the Divine Commandment to annihilate Amalek and kill every man, woman, and animal among the Canaanites.  Gone also are the visions of horror facing all Jews which were proclaimed by the Prophets warning us of G-d's Condemnation for our rebuke of Torah....

Now, included instead in synagogue services are selected verses and discourses emphasizing the "Goodness of G-d" "His Mercy endureth forever" ... "He forgiveth our transgressions"... "A God of Love who cares for all men and all creation" ...

Even the 'Kol Nidre' Service (considered so astoundingly important - and one in which congregations pay exorbitantly high prices for the most highly regarded cantors to come and sing for them each year) is a very recent addition with no relation whatsoever to Torah Judaism - It is something the Jews of the Middle Ages devised so that they could swear allegiance and vow loyalty to their gentile Kings and then say a prayer to tell G-d that they were "just lying" to their King and country so their heads wouldn't be chopped off, and so therefore shouldn't be held accountable for any "vows" they make during the year. 

Meanwhile, the "Torah Sages" insisted that each Jew must willingly accept Death rather than renounce Judaism, and were unanimous in their view that Jews may bow down only before G-d and never before an earthly gentile King.

And as for "Who by Fire, Who by Pestilence, Who by Strangulation, Who by Flood' is decided by G-d to be killed in the upcoming Jewish Year ...

I guess that the goodness and mercy is bestowed after these horrific deaths?

Or is it that the mercy, justice, and goodness are only for those not chosen to die this year by being burned alive or drowning?

Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go and donate my car and some land to the Lubavitchers in hopes of receiving Mercy, Kindness, and Goodness.  Forever.  And Forever.  Amen.  And Amen.

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 09:55:58 AM
Massuh,

I could respond to each of your concerns but at this time I think it would be a waste.

The Talmud, the Kabbalah and all historical Jewish sources say that Hashem is a Merciful G-d. Reading the very first Parasha of Beresheit the commentators come to the absolute conclusion that the reason the Universe was created was for Hashem to have a people to be merciful to. This is not invented in the last 1000 years... This is from the mouths of the sages of the days of old.

You also seem to have an issue with the fact that some Jewish institutions demand payment in order to attend services. Well, to tell the truth I hardly pay anything and yet I am a member of a local community. Indeed I do give Tzedakkah to these organizations, but it comes from my heart and my will to give what I can give in order to support the furthering of Jewish education.

I guess you will have to deal with Hashem in your own way on judgement day.

I think I will start a thread on the awesome wondrous good deeds Hashem did for us in the desert, and still does for us to this day...

PS: Look at my current signature line, it is the 2nd Aliyah for Haazinu {and I had this Aliyah for last Shabbat}...

Quote
Parasha Haazinu - Devarim 32:7-11

Remember the days of old; reflect upon the years of [other] generations. Ask your father, and he will tell you; your elders, and they will inform you.When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man, He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.Because the Lord's portion is His people Jacob, the lot of His inheritance.He found them in a desert land, and in a desolate, howling wasteland. He encompassed them and bestowed understanding upon them; He protected them as the pupil of His eye. As an eagle awakens its nest, hovering over its fledglings, it spreads its wings, taking them and carrying them  on its pinions. [So] the Lord guided them alone, and there was no alien deity with Him.

Do you think King David was in it for the money? I hope not... Yet he wrote:

Tehillim 136

Give thanks to the Lord because He is good, for His kindness is eternal.
Give thanks to the God of the angels, for His kindness is eternal.
Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who performs great wonders alone, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who made the heavens with understanding, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who spread out the earth over the water, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who made great luminaries, for His kindness is eternal.
The sun to rule by day, for His kindness is eternal.
The moon and stars to rule at night, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who smote the Egyptians with their firstborn, for His kindness is eternal.
And He took Israel from their midst, for His kindness is eternal.
With a strong hand and with an outstretched arm, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who cut the Sea of Reeds asunder, for His kindness is eternal.
And caused Israel to cross in its midst, for His kindness is eternal.
And He threw Pharaoh and his host into the Sea of Reeds, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who led His people in the desert, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who smote great kings, for His kindness is eternal.
And slew mighty kings, for His kindness is eternal.
Sihon the king of the Amorites, for His kindness is eternal.
And Og the king of Bashan, for His kindness is eternal.
And He gave their land as an inheritance, for His kindness is eternal.
An inheritance to Israel His servant, for His kindness is eternal.
Who remembered us in our humble state, for His kindness is eternal.
And He rescued us from our adversaries, for His kindness is eternal.
Who gives bread to all flesh, for His kindness is eternal.
Give thanks to the God of heaven, for His kindness is eternal.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on September 15, 2010, 09:57:18 AM
While Neturei Karta's ideas are totally off base and have no base whatsoever in Judaism, Xtian scriptures clearly advocate mission and despise for those who did not accept the "Evangelium".
Show me some verses in the New Testament that advocate or agree with the Crusades or what Martin Luther did, please.

I don't even need to go there since we're talking specifically about missionaries and not violence. Matthew explains Xtian
mission pretty clearly.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on September 15, 2010, 10:02:08 AM
I'd say Jews have done a better job destroying the souls of their own people than any non-Jewish people.

By not accepting Jeebus?
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: mord on September 15, 2010, 10:03:32 AM
WHO IS THE PASTOR
which Pastor
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on September 15, 2010, 10:04:32 AM
WHO IS THE PASTOR
which Pastor

from the Qur'an burning
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: mord on September 15, 2010, 10:08:16 AM
oh he didn't do it he shouldn't have made the announcement to begin with
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Rubystars on September 15, 2010, 10:08:34 AM
I'll put it like this. When someone lumps all Christians in with these missionary street-corner freaks it's like lumping Jews in with the neturei karta scum.

While Neturei Karta's ideas are totally off base and have no base whatsoever in Judaism, Xtian scriptures clearly advocate mission and despise for those who did not accept the "Evangelium".

Christians do have a mission to preach the gospel, but Jesus never said to do it in the horrible ways in which it has been misinterpreted. It was never supposed to be an aggressive, manipulative, predatory type of thing. Jesus never said to kill people if they don't want to follow Him, Jesus never said to torture people for being "heretics". Jesus never said to do a lot of the things that people have done in His name. Jesus said God is Love. I think a lot of the more horrible stuff came out of Rome and Greece, later on, not the first Christians. I understand why you would be unhappy with even them and I respect the reasoning for it. I am not here to convert Jews, nor do I seek out Jews to convert anywhere. I am not an enemy of the Jewish people and I do not seek to destroy their ancient religion or traditions.

I think I understand why you hate Christians so much, and it's because most of your exposure to them have been the evil Arabs in Israel. While a few may be true Christians, I think most of them there have forgotten the teachings about love and live a life that's just as evil as their Muslim counterparts. They put a strong focus on certain Scriptures which could be interpreted by evil people to be against all Jews and they persecute God's people based on that. I have a completely different experience with Christianity, one that taught me to admire the Jews. I don't blame you for what you've been exposed to, but that's not all there is to Christians.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 10:09:41 AM
WHO IS THE PASTOR
which Pastor

from the Qur'an burning

Is it true that this pastor also intended to burn Talmuds?

If so I cannot support him..
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: mord on September 15, 2010, 10:11:23 AM
WHO IS THE PASTOR
which Pastor

from the Qur'an burning

Is it true that this pastor also intended to burn Talmuds?

If so I cannot support him..

no where did you read that
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 10:15:44 AM
WHO IS THE PASTOR
which Pastor

from the Qur'an burning

Is it true that this pastor also intended to burn Talmuds?

If so I cannot support him..

no where did you read that

I cannot quote the location I saw it but I think it was in a talkback on some website I was reading. I also think that someone in a discussion here at JTF made an accusation that this pastor was also against Jewish holy books... Let me google it and see if I can find any support for this...

Here is an article which discusses this:

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/columnists/mayo/blog/2010/09/quran_burning_fighting_hate_wi.html

Quote
There is so much perverse, offensive and just plain wrong about a Gainesville pastor’s plans to burn Qurans and the Talmud to mark the anniversary of the Sept. 11th attacks I don’t know where to begin.

This comes from an antisemitic site {Warning!}

http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2010/08/burning-koran-and-talmud-in-florida.html

Quote
Burning the Koran and the Talmud in Florida
Michael Hoffman | www.RevisionistHistory.org

Few acts could be more counter-productive than book-burning.

Though medieval Catholics are stigmatized for burning the Babylonian Talmud, the burning of the New Testament in the Israeli state is almost never mentioned.

The Talmud is a book that actually calls for the burning of Christian books. This is a startling and obscure fact. Because Michael Hoffman has dug it up, Internet critics of Zionism and the ADL will not tell their readers about it in their e-mailings lest they publicize Hoffman's research. Better that their readers are kept ignorant. No wonder we're losing.


http://www.usanewstoday.net/info-jones-koran-talmud.html

Quote
Red-nosed pastor Terry Jones, who plans to burn copies of the Koran and Jewish text the Talmud at the weekend, has either had his website  hacked or his ISP has pulled the plug.. Jones is enjoying his 15 minutes of fame thanks to plans for an International Burn the Koran Day to mark the anniversary of 9/11. Jones also plans to burn copies of the Talmud..If I was Terry Jones, I would be hesitant to remind people of that chapter from Burning The Koran, Burning The Talmud; Meet Ahmed--The New Muslim Gargoyle On A French Ca.The center is run by Terry Jones, who can't seem to make up his mind whether he's in favor of burning copies of the Koran and Talmud or not. .
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: mord on September 15, 2010, 10:19:52 AM
hoffman is holocaust denier and there are plenty of Christian bibles in Israel my friend took one when he went. the only place he couldn't take it was by moslum mosques
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: cjd on September 15, 2010, 10:20:07 AM
I'd say Jews have done a better job destroying the souls of their own people than any non-Jewish people.

By not accepting Jeebus?
I give up :'(  I have searched through all the best idol stores and have been unable to locate the prized "Jeebus" idol for my collection....Come out come out where ever you are Jeebus  :::D
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: TheCoon on September 15, 2010, 10:22:04 AM
I'd say Jews have done a better job destroying the souls of their own people than any non-Jewish people.

By not accepting Jeebus?

By the fact a majority of Israeli Jews are secular and Jews outside of Israel being overwhelmingly self-hating(re: leftist) and anti-zionist(not believing they should ever move to Israel) and also the fact millions of hasidim don't believe in the need to be in Israel. The majority of the world's Jews exist outside of the Jewish faith and have no idea what it means to be the chosen people of God.

Tell me what is the real difference between a Jew who doesn't observe any form of Judaism(a Jew in name only) and a Jew who converts to Christianity? Is believing in nothing worse than believing in Jesus?

I real think you're just an ignorant person who hates non-Jews.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: mord on September 15, 2010, 10:29:54 AM
I'd say Jews have done a better job destroying the souls of their own people than any non-Jewish people.

By not accepting Jeebus?
I give up :'(  I have searched through all the best idol stores and have been unable to locate the prized "Jeebus" idol for my collection....Come out come out where ever you are Jeebus  :::D
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 10:33:15 AM
I'd say Jews have done a better job destroying the souls of their own people than any non-Jewish people.

By not accepting Jeebus?

By the fact a majority of Israeli Jews are secular and Jews outside of Israel being overwhelmingly self-hating(re: leftist) and anti-zionist(not believing they should ever move to Israel) and also the fact millions of hasidim don't believe in the need to be in Israel. The majority of the world's Jews exist outside of the Jewish faith and have no idea what it means to be the chosen people of G-d.

Tell me what is the real difference between a Jew who doesn't observe any form of Judaism(a Jew in name only) and a Jew who converts to Christianity? Is believing in nothing worse than believing in Jesus?

I real think you're just an ignorant person who hates non-Jews.

I disagree, my brother Ron Ben Michael is a proud Jew who wants to bring all Jews to Teshuva. It does not help us when Jews are seduced leave Jewish faith. Our Torah tells us this over and over again. It is best for a secular Jew to remain secular rather than forego his portion in Olam Haba. Avodah Zarah is foreign worship. To a Jew worshiping a foreign deity is worse than death itself.

I do not want this to become a battle between proud Jews and proud Christians. It was not my intention when I stated what I did about proselytizing and missionising.

I believe most religious Jews respect Christians but do not want to become too social with them in order to ensure that future generations remain Jewish. Hashem told the Jewish people we are a nation who dwells alone.

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 10:34:20 AM
I'd say Jews have done a better job destroying the souls of their own people than any non-Jewish people.

By not accepting Jeebus?
I give up :'(  I have searched through all the best idol stores and have been unable to locate the prized "Jeebus" idol for my collection....Come out come out where ever you are Jeebus  :::D

Im sorry but you must not have looked too hard. At our local $1 store there is a whole aisle full of Jeebus statues and images... We never go to that store anymore..
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on September 15, 2010, 10:39:36 AM

By the fact a majority of Israeli Jews are secular and Jews outside of Israel being overwhelmingly self-hating(re: leftist) and anti-zionist(not believing they should ever move to Israel) and also the fact millions of hasidim don't believe in the need to be in Israel. The majority of the world's Jews exist outside of the Jewish faith and have no idea what it means to be the chosen people of G-d.

Yes, you are right.  Xtians who missionize should not be put to blame for murdering Jewish souls just like Nazis shouldn't be put to blame for murdering millions of Jews because Jews should have left Europe. Nazis are good people and only Jews are to blame. F*ck the heretic Talmudic Jews who use the blood of Xtian boys and Xtian women for the baking of Matzahs in Pesach!

You are correct that Jews should be put to blame. And you are also right that there's no need to be angry about Xtian for being a deliberate dishonest Nazi who missionizes with a custom of "support and love" just like there is no need to be angry about an Ishamelite hord who blows up buses and buildings.

Quote
Tell me what is the real difference between a Jew who doesn't observe any form of Judaism(a Jew in name only) and a Jew who converts to Christianity? Is believing in nothing worse than believing in Jesus?

A Jew who believes in nothing doesn't neccesarily hate Jews and Judiasm. A Xtian does like a Muslim does - his hatred is based on the Scriptures and the religion.

Quote
I real think you're just an ignorant person who hates non-Jews.

Your false idol Jeebus was a self-hating Jew. I hate him more than I hate Roman pigs like you.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on September 15, 2010, 10:43:01 AM
I'd say Jews have done a better job destroying the souls of their own people than any non-Jewish people.

By not accepting Jeebus?
I give up :'(  I have searched through all the best idol stores and have been unable to locate the prized "Jeebus" idol for my collection....Come out come out where ever you are Jeebus  :::D

you may find him in Woodstock
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on September 15, 2010, 10:48:12 AM

Christians do have a mission to preach the gospel, but Jesus never said to do it in the horrible ways in which it has been misinterpreted. It was never supposed to be an aggressive, manipulative, predatory type of thing. Jesus never said to kill people if they don't want to follow Him, Jesus never said to torture people for being "heretics". Jesus never said to do a lot of the things that people have done in His name. Jesus said G-d is Love. I think a lot of the more horrible stuff came out of Rome and Greece, later on, not the first Christians. I understand why you would be unhappy with even them and I respect the reasoning for it. I am not here to convert Jews, nor do I seek out Jews to convert anywhere. I am not an enemy of the Jewish people and I do not seek to destroy their ancient religion or traditions.

Yes a polite missionary is better than a violent yet blunt one. Yes there's a huge difference between a Muslim who says Hamas and Hezbollah don't have anything to do with Islam and a Xtian who says the murder of tens of millions of Jews by Xtians and the forced conversion, persecutions, rape, expulsions and unfair debates (in which the Xtian lunatics lost anyhow, hahaha!!) has nothing to do with Xtianity.

You say Jeebus said "G-D is Love". And what is love according to Xtianity? how is it perfomed when it comes to non-Xtians?

If I will ever trust you I will be no different than any Judenrat.

Quote
I think I understand why you hate Christians so much, and it's because most of your exposure to them have been the evil Arabs in Israel. While a few may be true Christians, I think most of them there have forgotten the teachings about love and live a life that's just as evil as their Muslim counterparts. They put a strong focus on certain Scriptures which could be interpreted by evil people to be against all Jews and they persecute G-d's people based on that. I have a completely different experience with Christianity, one that taught me to admire the Jews. I don't blame you for what you've been exposed to, but that's not all there is to Christians.


Unblock me and convince me that you have a legitimate interpretation for reveal your true colors.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 15, 2010, 10:51:55 AM
Ron, I asked you to provide me these verses. You never did. You can ask me to "admit" that I am an alien bloodsucker from Venus who kills goats with my laser-ray eyes and drains them of their vital juices all you want, but I can't say that I am if I'm not.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: TheCoon on September 15, 2010, 10:53:29 AM
Well it didn't take much to get Ron to show his true evil feelings.

Have a good life, Ron. Hopefully you don't lose your mind and harm any innocent Christians just minding their business.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Rubystars on September 15, 2010, 11:00:09 AM
Ron you are blocked for calling me a Nazi and other horrible things and you will never be unblocked as long as you continue your nasty attitude toward Christians in general and me in particular. I don't believe that Jesus would have been proud of anyone who tries to force Christianity on another person, or use manipulation or coercion in any way. If I have to stop discussing this with you then I will stop now.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 15, 2010, 11:18:54 AM
I would rather burn in hell for eternity than to obey a cruel G-d like the one they described to you.

Most of our Sages would have never defined a Xtian to be a Righteous Gentile except for Da'at Miut (minority opinion) of Rabbi Meiri.
Would you call them "cruel" just for disagreeing with their (majority) opinion?

I think Chai was referring to the threat of burning in hell as cruel.   
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: cjd on September 15, 2010, 11:28:21 AM
I'd say Jews have done a better job destroying the souls of their own people than any non-Jewish people.

By not accepting Jeebus?
I give up :'(  I have searched through all the best idol stores and have been unable to locate the prized "Jeebus" idol for my collection....Come out come out where ever you are Jeebus  :::D

Im sorry but you must not have looked too hard. At our local $1 store there is a whole aisle full of Jeebus statues and images... We never go to that store anymore..

Wow an entire aisle of them.....That could be tricky going down an aisle like that... A person could get to the end of the aisle a changed person...  I could just picture all them little eyes looking at me now just thinking about it.... I have a feeling however your getting you idols confused... Or is it my idols... Now I am confused  :::D...Anyway the Jeebus society has told me its not an official Jeebus unless the Jeebus logo is stamped on its tookis.... You know how them China knockoffs are you think your getting a Jeebus and get home and find you only have a common Jesus :o ...NOT GOOD... I never go into them dollar stores...  I see people going in there coming out of there with all sorts of stuff they don't need and I am starting to see why  :::D They may be getting a dollar store conversion :o
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 15, 2010, 11:28:49 AM


And I myself have more than once been strongly rebuked by Chasidic Rabbis for criticizing or lecturing others about the 'misguided' beliefs they might hold, when my only concern should be for my own spiritual condition.

If it's other Jews you're criticizing or lecturing, I don't see why you shouldn't be concerned with them.  Jews have been criticizing the mistaken views of other Jews since the beginning of Judaism.  And it's what every rabbi does who has ever argued an idea.   The lubavitchers do this all the time, too.   They always reach out to secular Jews and try to get them to engage in religious Judaism or get involved in some practices. 
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chai on September 15, 2010, 11:35:40 AM
I would rather burn in hell for eternity than to obey a cruel G-d like the one they described to you.

Most of our Sages would have never defined a Xtian to be a Righteous Gentile except for Da'at Miut (minority opinion) of Rabbi Meiri.
Would you call them "cruel" just for disagreeing with their (majority) opinion?

I think Chai was referring to the threat of burning in hell as cruel.   

Yea , I cant find it where is says it either, but if it does, I would like to examine it. Rabbi  Kahanes books really resonate with me , and give Judaism some heart and meaning. I wish I had a rabbi like that.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 15, 2010, 11:44:27 AM
True one of his names is Elokim, the name of strict justice, and it was with this name that he creates the Universe

Well actually, review that Rashi because in the end God did NOT create the world with strict justice.  The world could not possibly endure that.   The Kabbalah goes in depth about this, but no reason to dwell on it here, I just wanted to correct that part of what you said - It makes the point you were making an even stronger one.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 15, 2010, 11:51:21 AM


The synagogue "services" we attend in 2010 have little if anything to do with Torah Judaism worship as it was practiced in Jerusalem at the Temple... 

...Our synagogues today in the Western world are "businesses" which sell "memberships" to those in the Jewish communities able and willing to pay for the "good seats" during the Holidays.

...It should therefore come as no surprise that after two thousand years of such "community worship" our services as well as our Hebrew schools are teaching a very "watered down" version of Judaism and G-d which is "acceptable" to a modern technological and educated society - one which "doesn't make waves" with the political status quo - a Judaism where a Rabbi is forbidden to teach Torah which demands that Jews renounce "The Peace Process" and annihilate the Muslim enemies of the Jewish People.


In the modern Jewish synagogues, gone are the Curse and the Punishments offered at Sinai...

etc


I think Muman davens at an Orthodox shul.  I'm pretty sure we don't skip any of those sections in any of the Orthodox shuls I've been in.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 15, 2010, 12:15:44 PM

Tell me what is the real difference between a Jew who doesn't observe any form of Judaism(a Jew in name only) and a Jew who converts to Christianity? Is believing in nothing worse than believing in Jesus?

For a Jew, no.   It is worse for a Jew to believe in Jesus than to believe in "nothing" (and that's whatever you mean by the term nothing).
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 15, 2010, 12:35:19 PM
KWRBT, in Judaism what happens to atheistic/agnostic Jews when they die (assuming they are not evil people)? Do they go to hell?
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 12:38:19 PM
True one of his names is Elokim, the name of strict justice, and it was with this name that he creates the Universe

Well actually, review that Rashi because in the end G-d did NOT create the world with strict justice.  The world could not possibly endure that.   The Kabbalah goes in depth about this, but no reason to dwell on it here, I just wanted to correct that part of what you said - It makes the point you were making an even stronger one.

You are correct. I should have explained a bit more...

According to Jewish belief although Hashem originally created the world with the quality of absolute strict justice he came to understand that the world would not be able to be sustained with strict justice. It was at this time, the time of the 1st Shabbat that Hashems trait of Mercy and Kindness was expressed. The first mention of Hashem in Genesis is by the name Elokim, but the name which Hashem told to Moshe was the name of Mercy, the Tetragrammaton {the Yud Kay Vav Kay name}.

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chaim Ben Pesach on September 15, 2010, 12:38:31 PM
בס''ד

This has turned into another ugly thread.

First of all, if some of our members do not want to use the name "Jesus", they should use the Hebrew name "Yeshu". That is the name the Talmudic Rabbis use. "Jeebus" sounds insulting and so I ask our members not to use this term any more.

Secondly, I ask that there be no more divisive religious attacks that prevent Jews and Christians from working together against the Islamic threat.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 15, 2010, 12:44:35 PM
בס''ד

This has turned into another ugly thread.

First of all, if some of our members do not want to use the name "Jesus", they should use the Hebrew name "Yeshu". That is the name the Talmudic Rabbis use. "Jeebus" sounds insulting and so I ask our members not to use this term any more.

Secondly, I ask that there be no more divisive religious attacks that prevent Jews and Christians from working together against the Islamic threat.

Thank you Chaim.

Why not address the question of the possibility of this pastor (Pastor Jones) getting involved with JTF? I think he's a flake now because he backed out of burning the Koran, but if he is interested in our organization, no publicity is bad publicity.

Of course, if he really, truly is anti-Judaism, then I want nothing to do with him, but so far I have just seen rumors and implications, not any words out of his mouth.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Rubystars on September 15, 2010, 12:56:27 PM
Chaim I hope you don't think I've been ugly to people. I'm being honest and I want other people to be honest and not underhanded and sneaky.

One thing I give Ron a lot of credit for is that he's at least man enough to come out and say how he feels. I strongly disagree with him most of the time, but at least he doesn't hide his opinions or feelings, or say something and then back out of it or deny he said it after the fact. When he says things I know that's how he really feels.

Others on here seem to say things to be deliberately offensive and then backtrack to avoid any repercussions.

I tolerate most things that offend me out of a need for harmony, but sometimes these sticky issues need to be brought out into the light and taken on.

I agree with you that Yeshu is much less offensive than "Jeebus". 
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chaim Ben Pesach on September 15, 2010, 01:00:07 PM
Chaim I hope you don't think I've been ugly to people. I'm being honest and I want other people to be honest and not underhanded and sneaky.

One thing I give Ron a lot of credit for is that he's at least man enough to come out and say how he feels. I strongly disagree with him most of the time, but at least he doesn't hide his opinions or feelings, or say something and then back out of it or deny he said it after the fact. When he says things I know that's how he really feels.

Others on here seem to say things to be deliberately offensive and then backtrack to avoid any repercussions.

I tolerate most things that offend me out of a need for harmony, but sometimes these sticky issues need to be brought out into the light and taken on.

I agree with you that Yeshu is much less offensive than "Jeebus". 

בס''ד

You certainly have not been ugly to people. You are one of the great JTFers who understands the need for all of us to work together.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Rubystars on September 15, 2010, 01:01:21 PM
Thank you Chaim. :)
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 01:04:06 PM
Chaim I hope you don't think I've been ugly to people. I'm being honest and I want other people to be honest and not underhanded and sneaky.

One thing I give Ron a lot of credit for is that he's at least man enough to come out and say how he feels. I strongly disagree with him most of the time, but at least he doesn't hide his opinions or feelings, or say something and then back out of it or deny he said it after the fact. When he says things I know that's how he really feels.

Others on here seem to say things to be deliberately offensive and then backtrack to avoid any repercussions.

I tolerate most things that offend me out of a need for harmony, but sometimes these sticky issues need to be brought out into the light and taken on.

I agree with you that Yeshu is much less offensive than "Jeebus". 

My original comment on this thread is not offensive, it simply states that I don't want to see missionaries attracted to JTF. Unless there are some alterior motives on the non-Jewish members what I said should not offend anyone..

(http://lauriekendrick.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/rodney_king.jpg)
 :throw:

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Rubystars on September 15, 2010, 01:14:26 PM
I don't want anyone to missionize anyone on here.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Yaakov Mendel on September 15, 2010, 01:25:00 PM

I find this thread very depressing.

I just want to say how much I appreciate the care, the support and the friendship expressed by all the non-Jewish JTFers for the Jewish people and Israel. G-d bless you and all the righteous Gentiles.


Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 15, 2010, 01:37:00 PM

I find this thread very depressing.

I just want to say how much I appreciate the care, the support and the friendship expressed by all the non-Jewish JTFers for the Jewish people and Israel. G-d bless you and all the righteous Gentiles.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 15, 2010, 01:38:45 PM
KWRBT, in Judaism what happens to atheistic/agnostic Jews when they die (assuming they are not evil people)? Do they go to hell?

I don't believe so, but I don't really know.   I can't say I'm an expert in what happens when we die.

There is an idea that they were raised wrong and so it's not entirely their fault if they don't have the right Jewish ideas or beliefs.   And if they're not evil people, I don't see why anyone would go to "hell" if they are not evil.   But this is just my own opinion - I don't know, I'd have to ask a rabbi about it.

All that said, your conception of "hell" is not quite what Judaism believes in.   There is "gehinnom" but I think that is a place where the soul is purified, and it's not permanent.   I think only the most evil people like Hitler y''s have their souls obliterated forever.   Anyone can chime in if I have any of that wrong.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lisa on September 15, 2010, 01:40:54 PM
You guys, can we just give this a rest?

I'm really not a fan of these Judaism vs. Christianity discussions that end up turning into arguments.  JTF accepts the good will, support and membership of non Jews, as long as there's no missionary activity.  That should be clear to everyone.   That's how it's always been.  So out of respect for Chaim who pays the bills here, let's all remember that and keep things civil.  

Now as for the religion of our members, it's always been at least half Christian, or more.  If there are Jews here who want more Jews to join JTF, then you can start out with your own Synagogues and friends.  Or, you can have a JTF meetup where you live.  Those of you not in New York won't get to meet Chaim in person.  But I'm sure he would love to have a conference call if something was organized.  Also, you have your work cut out for you, since Jews, as a group who are otherwise smart and hard working people, tend to be like lemmings when it comes to matters of survival.  

Anyway, please stop with the bickering before I lock this thread.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: TheCoon on September 15, 2010, 01:46:21 PM
The whole idea that Christians proselytize to Jews in this day and age is fairly ridiculous. Many Christian churches, including the Catholics, do not do it and actively state not to do so. Obviously there might be some smaller churches that do so but no major church stands for that any more.

Even a lot of ministers from the southern churches like John Hagee and the late Jerry Falwell agreed that Christians should not try to convert Jews. John Hagee persuaded a lot of other ministers to stop doing so and the belief is that Jews have a special relationship with God, which is what any Christian worth their salt believes.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 15, 2010, 01:48:33 PM
I don't think brennan and I were bickering.   I always enjoy our discussions.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Confederate Kahanist on September 15, 2010, 01:57:41 PM
WHO IS THE PASTOR
which Pastor

I think it's that idiot in Florida
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lisa on September 15, 2010, 02:06:53 PM
Now about that Pastor Terry Jones in FL, how do we know he really would have burned the Korans?  In any case, what he managed to do with his threat was to expose our politicians, news media and military brass as a bunch of dhimmis. 
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 15, 2010, 02:13:02 PM
I don't think brennan and I were bickering.   I always enjoy our discussions.
No, we weren't fighting at all. Only one person really caused any problems.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 02:21:12 PM
I don't think brennan and I were bickering.   I always enjoy our discussions.
No, we weren't fighting at all. Only one person really caused any problems.

And it was you...

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chai on September 15, 2010, 03:16:10 PM
Ok , no more missionary talk please , the usual people that respond aren't gonna missionize anyone
, we are all in the same boat here America and the Israel are under attack by Islam.

My intention for this thread was for it to evolve like this;

In many ways though we don't need the pastor. As Jews we have a religious right to burn the Koran. How is something like this organized? I think all the usual repliers should respond with ideas on how to do this.

There is absolutely nothing to be a afraid of because burning the Koran is within the framework  on the constitution in 3 ways!

1. separation of church and state (the government cannot interfere with religious issues) that's the argument on why you can build a moqe on ground 0) In the same way Islam uses Americas kindness against us lets do the same thing ! Lets fight fire with fire!

2. freedom of speech

3. religious freedom. Jews are COMMANDED to destroy amalek.

You know, if there is any penalty for burning the koran by the USA then we will analyze how far gone this country has gone.

Its easy for the Muslims FBI to target and threaten the pasor and even Chaim because of his past so he has to be more careful then us what to say because he wants to protect us
but if we all stand together , some of us are in NY some in Cali some in Israel we will be heard. But we are all good citizens , we love America and are all diverse in our belifes ! because JTF is religiously diverse that gives us an advantage ..LETS use it.

Dont be afraid, please.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 03:29:41 PM
How is burning a Koran destroying Amalek? I find that an odd assertion. The command to destroy Amalek does not require burning books, it requires defeating them in battle. I cant find a single reference in Tanach or other Jewish writing which support the burning of books. If you can find a source please provide it...



Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: TheCoon on September 15, 2010, 03:47:10 PM
Every koran has the potential to create more muslims who we all agree are Amalek. So by preventing people from becoming muslim you're saving lives(and souls).
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chai on September 15, 2010, 03:47:31 PM
How is burning a Koran destroying Amalek? I find that an odd assertion. The command to destroy Amalek does not require burning books, it requires defeating them in battle. I cant find a single reference in Tanach or other Jewish writing which support the burning of books. If you can find a source please provide it...





In Yeshiva I was thought that wiping out Amakeks name is a mitzva . I was also thought when Hamans name is said we make noise.

Burning The most Antisemitic book of all time is a Mitzva using that logic.

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chai on September 15, 2010, 03:48:34 PM
Every koran has the potential to create more muslims who we all agree are Amalek. So by preventing people from becoming muslim you're saving lives(and souls).
+1

Muman, Why dont you want such a book burned. There is nothing to be afraid of.

After what they did to your brother? Him in that building trapped and burned to death? What are they going to do to your brothers memory Muman? They are going to build a mosque over his ashes. They are spitting in his grave.

If Jews stared burning mein kamf before it was too late lives could have been saved
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 15, 2010, 03:50:13 PM
How is burning a Koran destroying Amalek? I find that an odd assertion. The command to destroy Amalek does not require burning books, it requires defeating them in battle. I cant find a single reference in Tanach or other Jewish writing which support the burning of books. If you can find a source please provide it...





In Yeshiva I was thought that wiping out Amakeks name is a mitzva . I was also thought when Hamans name is said we make noise.

Burning The most Antisemitic book of all time is a Mitzva using that logic.



True, the name of Amalek will be destroyed. But I dont know if burning a Koran fulfills this mitzvah.

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Chai on September 15, 2010, 03:54:02 PM
How is burning a Koran destroying Amalek? I find that an odd assertion. The command to destroy Amalek does not require burning books, it requires defeating them in battle. I cant find a single reference in Tanach or other Jewish writing which support the burning of books. If you can find a source please provide it...






In Yeshiva I was thought that wiping out Amakeks name is a mitzva . I was also thought when Hamans name is said we make noise.

Burning The most Antisemitic book of all time is a Mitzva using that logic.



True, the name of Amalek will be destroyed. But I dont know if burning a Koran fulfills this mitzvah.



Ok. Well that's up to you. :(
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: JTFenthusiast2 on September 15, 2010, 04:34:27 PM
Ron, I asked you to provide me these verses. You never did. You can ask me to "admit" that I am an alien bloodsucker from Venus who kills goats with my laser-ray eyes and drains them of their vital juices all you want, but I can't say that I am if I'm not.

I knew dat sh*t was tru'   ;D

Now jokes aside, I dont think there was anything wrong with this thread in how it started, but it got ugly fast.  I read what Muman wrote and I dont see any ugliness there.  However after that, it did get ugly, and unnecessarily so.  If people do not agree on matters of religion, why do we need to keep rehashing things that make us feel suspicious and angry with one another?  There is too much either/or; black/white thinking among members.  There are certain things that are absolute evils and wrong, but I don't think any of us would disagree with that. 


To Muman's point, I, too, might say that Jews shouldn't depend on non-Jews for their ability to survive.  Why? Because I hate non-Jews?  ABSOLUTELY NOT.  The reason would be because Jews have routinely depended on their physical safety from people who have not helped us.  There have been many righteous Christians who have helped Jews, but far too many who have helped our enemies.  Does this mean I trust a Jew more than a Christian?  ABSOLUTELY NOT. 

The Christians on this forum are the kind of RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE who would have helped save Jewish lives.  TO accuse Christians, who are doing nothing but trying to help Jews, of somehow being untrustworthy is really a very immoral thing to do here.  It is a divisive, nasty, and false behavior.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: דוד בן זאב אריה on September 15, 2010, 04:47:50 PM
What Pastor
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: דוד בן זאב אריה on September 15, 2010, 04:48:09 PM
Which Pastor
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: AsheDina on September 15, 2010, 04:58:07 PM
Who gives a damn about the DUMB Qu'ran being burned.  They took the Torah and perverted it. BURN BABY BURN.
I am sick and tired of people worrying about these ANIMALS book that wants to murder Jews FIRST.

As for all of this Christian stuff:  I dont like Jew haters, they are tormenting slimes, but just as much as this, is people that hate Christians, like the LEFT wing.

All of my friends are Christians.  I am not interested in 'converting'. TY.

As far as I have known, this forum has **NEVER** Allowed "Missionizing". 

I hope the pastor joins as well.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: takebackourtemple on September 15, 2010, 07:41:52 PM
I had suggested this already. The sooner we can do this, the greater of a chance we have to get media attention.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 15, 2010, 07:43:25 PM
Which Pastor

Something Jones. The guy who was going to burn the koran in florida.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on September 15, 2010, 08:55:57 PM
Ron, I asked you to provide me these verses. You never did. You can ask me to "admit" that I am an alien bloodsucker from Venus who kills goats with my laser-ray eyes and drains them of their vital juices all you want, but I can't say that I am if I'm not.
I'm not Ron, but...

Specifically, the "parable of the ten minas" [Luke 19:11-27] has been read as a commandment to kill Jews.  Yushke is seen as "the king/nobleman" [obviously], and the Jews as the "subjects who hated him".  Obviously not all people interpret these verses as such, but for some they have been a "license to kill [the Jews]".

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19%3A11-27&version=NIV

The reason Jews are associated by some as the "subjects who hated him" comes from numerous times in the NT where "the Jews" or "the Pharisees" are made out to be villainous.  Today's Jews, with few exceptions, are all Pharisees descendants [people who follow modern Rabbinic Judaism].

http://www.messiahtruth.com/anti.html
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lisa on September 15, 2010, 09:27:45 PM
Which Pastor

Something Jones. The guy who was going to burn the koran in florida.

His name is Pastor Terry Jones. 

Whenever I think of a Terry Jones, I think of the Monty Python actor of the same name who used to play the part of screechy old ladies. 
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 15, 2010, 10:10:22 PM
I'm not Ron, but...

Specifically, the "parable of the ten minas" [Luke 19:11-27] has been read as a commandment to kill Jews.  Yushke is seen as "the king/nobleman" [obviously], and the Jews as the "subjects who hated him".  Obviously not all people interpret these verses as such, but for some they have been a "license to kill [the Jews]".

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19%3A11-27&version=NIV

The reason Jews are associated by some as the "subjects who hated him" comes from numerous times in the NT where "the Jews" or "the Pharisees" are made out to be villainous.  Today's Jews, with few exceptions, are all Pharisees descendants [people who follow modern Rabbinic Judaism].

http://www.messiahtruth.com/anti.html
I don't doubt that sick people believe/d that but that is a horrible and grotesque misinterpretation, I can promise.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Raulmarrio2000 on September 16, 2010, 12:08:19 AM
The parable about beheading the ones who did not want their King is quite probably refering to Jews, but it's a parable threatening them with Heavenly punishment. Nowhere does the NT command to kill or physically hurt anyone by the hand of man. However, there are several verses that could be interpreted as a commandedment to HATE Jews.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Confederate Kahanist on September 16, 2010, 12:33:25 AM
If it's Manning your talking about, I would love for him to join the forum!!!!!!


Such an articulate and well educated man.  A rare find in the black community.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 16, 2010, 12:35:53 AM
Now I am confused...

What Pastor are we talking about? The majority of this thread was about Terry Jones and then some others are about Manning. I originally assumed it was about Manning, then I quickly realized it was about Jones, but now I am not sure... I am going crazy about it!!!

What Pastor are we talking about?

Maybe CARDINAL SIN?

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1nL1R9q1lu0/S_tKvw77EGI/AAAAAAAAACE/EkK-H-qg_4s/s320/Cardinal+Sin.jpg)
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 16, 2010, 01:14:19 AM
However, there are several verses that could be interpreted as a commandedment to HATE Jews.
Which ones?
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Raulmarrio2000 on September 16, 2010, 01:59:29 AM
However, there are several verses that could be interpreted as a commandedment to HATE Jews.
Which ones?

Dpn't have the verse numbers. "Synagogues of Satan....." "Sons of the devil..."  "they (those who reject Christianity) are enemies of all men, especially those who circumcise themselves." "The Pharisees and the Scribes are cursed...." " Joseph of Arimatea was a disciple of Jesus, but secretely because of fears of THE JEWS..." all the Jews? wasn't Joseph and Jesus also Jewish?
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 16, 2010, 02:08:54 AM
Don't have the verse numbers. "Synagogues of Satan....." "Sons of the devil..."  "they (those who reject Christianity) are enemies of all men, especially those who circumcise themselves." "The Pharisees and the Scribes are cursed...." " Joseph of Arimatea was a disciple of Jesus, but secretely because of fears of THE JEWS..." all the Jews? wasn't Joseph and Jesus also Jewish?
Isn't that proof that those statements never referred to Jews in general?
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Raulmarrio2000 on September 16, 2010, 02:17:16 AM
Don't have the verse numbers. "Synagogues of Satan....." "Sons of the devil..."  "they (those who reject Christianity) are enemies of all men, especially those who circumcise themselves." "The Pharisees and the Scribes are cursed...." " Joseph of Arimatea was a disciple of Jesus, but secretely because of fears of THE JEWS..." all the Jews? wasn't Joseph and Jesus also Jewish?
Isn't that proof that those statements never referred to Jews in general?

Quite difficult to say... Jesus, almost certainly spoke in Aramaic or Hebrew. The Gospel was probably recorded in one of those languages first, and then translated  to the Greek definitive version. Also the Greek of that time cannot be understood perfectly by any linguist without knowing the culture of that time. The English and Spanish versions seem to imply it refers to ALL Jews except those who became Christians, but I give it the benefit of the doubt because of the linguistic problem.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Rubystars on September 16, 2010, 06:27:08 AM
I loved the Cardinal Sin joke  :::D
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on September 16, 2010, 11:19:11 AM
Re:  "Jesus, almost certainly spoke in Aramaic or Hebrew. The Gospel was probably recorded in one of those languages first, and then translated  to the Greek definitive version. Also the Greek of that time cannot be understood perfectly by any linguist without knowing the culture of that time. "

The first known "book" of the New Testament was compiled no earlier than 60 years after the crucifixion of Jesus, by "second generation" followers who put to letters "word of mouth" recollections.  It is believed to be written in Damascus, and is known to us today as The Gospel of Mark.  Much of what became "Church Dogma" - the virgin birth stories and "The Annunciation by the Angel Gabriel" offered in later texts, is not mentioned at all in this first book.  All of the New Testament writings were written in the Greek language by people born into Greek culture and living in a world surrounded with numerous Greek Mystery Cults found throughout the ancient world, as well as the Cult of Mithraism which was heavily practiced in the Roman World.  Central in most of these cults was a gnostic mythos:  "The Queen of Heaven" gives virgin birth to a god-man who imparts sacred and secret knowledge to his selected followers, and then he willingly sacrifices his life, rises from the dead, and lives forever in the abode of the gods, having fulfilled his role as savior of the world.  It was not until the Third Century C.E. at the Council of Nicea held by the Emperor Constantine  that the Church leaders decided which writings were to be considered "official, unquestionable" Christian texts which became the New Testament.  The exact authorship of most of these works is unknown, even though attributed to one or another of Jesus' disciples.  All of the remaining texts which offered views about Jesus in opposition to the Church leaders were banned and burned, along with all of their followers and believers.  Thus came to be the official New Testament - a Greek book teaching Greek culture, full of inconsistencies and hypocrisies, which condemns all Jews as the enemy of G-d, and teaches that the One Indivisible Omniscient and Omnipotent Creator G-d of the Universe is now divided into Three Separate G-d Divisions - The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.  Mary is now The Queen of Heaven.  Belief in her virgin born son is the gnosis - the salvation through acceptance of secret knowledge imparted by the g=d-man sacrificing hero, and any and all Torah doctrines are deemed Satanic heresies in denial of The Son's "New Covenant" - one in which only faith that Jesus is both equal to G-d and also faith that Jesus is also G-d's own son by the Virgin Queen of Heaven is required for salvation.  It's doctrines further state that the true Covenant People, the Jews, are eternally condemned and to be considered an 'extinct race', in the future to be replaced by all who renounce Judaism and accept the god-man story.
In short:  Christianity as we know it today is little more than a rewriting of ancient Greek Gnostic Mystery Cults and the renaming of ancient pagan gods.  Its followers had no knowledge of Jews or Torah and had long been worshipping and praying to the Divine Virgin Mother of Heaven and her Son.  Their prayers included the saying the Rosary (almost identical in prose and prayer to the Catholic version today), self-flagellation (again practiced by Catholics today), and many other rites and rituals taken directly from pagan religions of the time.  As the Church spread, The Roman Feast of Saturnalia was deemed Christmas day, and the Celtic sex/fertility rites of Spring were deemed to be Easter Sunday.  Even the sun worshipper's sacred day "Sun-Day" was declared to be the official Christian Sabbath "Sunday".  While it is a fact that the people to first follow Jesus and believe that he was the Jewish Messiah were Jews from ancient Israel, they, along with anyone else who disagreed with the Council of Nicea, were declared heretics, rooted out, executed, and their books burned.
Thus began the early Christian Church, which further evolved and expanded over the next 1700 years into the bewildering forms we see today everywhere in the world.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: JTFenthusiast2 on September 16, 2010, 05:29:54 PM
Massa,

Most Catholics would disagree with you. Only rare forbidden sects practice self-flagellation.  That is not permitted in any mainstream Roman Catholic church.  Your statements about Catholicism and it's supposed Greek roots have been made about Judaism as well
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 16, 2010, 05:37:33 PM
Massa,

Most Catholics would disagree with you. Only rare forbidden sects practice self-flagellation.  That is not permitted in any mainstream Roman Catholic church.  Your statements about Catholicism and it's supposed Greek roots have been made about Judaism as well

Judaism pre-dates greece by many years...

Also the Catholic Bible, was first translated into Greek...


http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html

Quote
There are 304,805 letters (approximately 79,000 words) in the Torah. In the over 3,000 years since Moses received the original Scripture from Mt. Sinai and wrote the 13 copies (twelve of which were distributed among the Tribes), spelling variants have emerged on a total of nine words -- with absolutely no effect  on their meaning. The Christian Bible, in comparison, has over 200,000 variants and in 400 instances, the variants change the meaning of the text; 50 of these are of great significance.

When countering Christian Missionaries it is important to always base one's arguments on actual Scripture – the original Hebrew text (public domain applications and software are available if your browser is not Hebrew-enabled). Remember that the English translation of the Tanach (which they call the “Tanach”) in nearly every Christian Bible is taken from the Septuagint, one of many Greek translations that differed considerably from the Masoretic text. It is this Greek Septuagint, not the original Hebrew, that was the main basis for the Old Latin, Coptic, Ethiopic, Armenian, Georgian, Slavonic, and part of the Arabic translations of the Tanach.

Even the earliest English translation of the JPS Tanach (Jewish Publication Society) was a slightly modified version of the Tanach found in the King James Bible, instead of a direct translation of the original Hebrew which accompanied it. Christian Missionaries will almost always use the English translation of the JPS Tanach as a "proof text." Far more accurate English translations of the Masoretic text are found in Koren's The Jerusalem Bible and Artscroll's Stone Edition Tanach.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: JTFenthusiast2 on September 16, 2010, 10:37:42 PM
Muman,

Many times Jews have been said to have been influenced by Greek ideas and philosophy.  Look at Philo of Alexandria for starters
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 16, 2010, 10:46:41 PM
Muman,

Many times Jews have been said to have been influenced by Greek ideas and philosophy.  Look at Philo of Alexandria for starters

Well the whole story of Channukah is the story of the small group of religious Jews who uprooted and drove out the Greek and Hellenist Jews. I never admired the Greeks, nor the Jewish Hellenists. But it is true that the secular Jew has been gravely influenced by the Greek culture. Judaism stands against many of the Greek philosophies, including the adulation of physical beauty, the belief that science and math hold all the truth of the world, and the false belief in many gods.

I don't think Judaism, the religion, owes anything to the greek culture.

Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 16, 2010, 10:49:14 PM
Jesus spoke in Aramaic and the NT was originally written in Aramaic, at least the Gospels. Not to missionize here but just to set the record straight, the idea that the first Christians were self-hating Jews who despised their religion and wanted to change it is false. They were Jews (many of them Pharisees) who really were convinced they had found the Messiah. Of course the Jews of JTF do not agree with this, and that's okay, but I just wanted to explain their mentality.
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 16, 2010, 10:53:41 PM
Jesus spoke in Aramaic and the NT was originally written in Aramaic, at least the Gospels. Not to missionize here but just to set the record straight, the idea that the first Christians were self-hating Jews who despised their religion and wanted to change it is false. They were Jews (many of them Pharisees) who really were convinced they had found the Messiah. Of course the Jews of JTF do not agree with this, and that's okay, but I just wanted to explain their mentality.

I realize you believe that. But the Moshiach which Torah describes needs to fulfill some requirements. The Jewish people could not accept him for some very valid reasons. Jewish history records how Rabbi Akiva believed that Bar Kochbah was Moshiach because he had fulfilled many of the requirements... But once he died and did not accomplish the goals of Moshiach it was clear that he was not.




Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: JTFenthusiast2 on September 16, 2010, 11:03:27 PM
Muman,

Many times Jews have been said to have been influenced by Greek ideas and philosophy.  Look at Philo of Alexandria for starters

Well the whole story of Channukah is the story of the small group of religious Jews who uprooted and drove out the Greek and Hellenist Jews. I never admired the Greeks, nor the Jewish Hellenists. But it is true that the secular Jew has been gravely influenced by the Greek culture. Judaism stands against many of the Greek philosophies, including the adulation of physical beauty, the belief that science and math hold all the truth of the world, and the false belief in many gods.

I don't think Judaism, the religion, owes anything to the greek culture.



Yes this is true, but the majority of Jews after and around the time of Jesus were self-professed proud Hellenists
Title: Re: Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol
Post by: muman613 on September 16, 2010, 11:38:40 PM
Muman,

Many times Jews have been said to have been influenced by Greek ideas and philosophy.  Look at Philo of Alexandria for starters

Well the whole story of Channukah is the story of the small group of religious Jews who uprooted and drove out the Greek and Hellenist Jews. I never admired the Greeks, nor the Jewish Hellenists. But it is true that the secular Jew has been gravely influenced by the Greek culture. Judaism stands against many of the Greek philosophies, including the adulation of physical beauty, the belief that science and math hold all the truth of the world, and the false belief in many gods.

I don't think Judaism, the religion, owes anything to the greek culture.



Yes this is true, but the majority of Jews after and around the time of Jesus were self-professed proud Hellenists

That may be one reason which led to the reform movement, assimilation, and self-hating Jews.