JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on September 30, 2010, 11:54:53 AM
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Please explain your vote.
(http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/122/m_609e1ae6529f4f0fa332e3ec9dd45fa1.jpg)
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As there were Juda and Israel, it went down. United under king David and king Salomo the land florrished. So you should work on it to have one Jewish state in the boarders that the bible states.
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If Israeli government decides to give it to Arabs, then settlers should proclaim an independent state.
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I am against it for many reasons. Some of them is that divided people are less likely to fail. I am against any partition in the land of Israel.
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If Israeli government decides to give it to Arabs, then settlers should proclaim an independent state.
It's not a good idea because the Israeli government would turn the military against Jews in Judea and destroy their communities. They've already proven they will do it from what happened in Gaza.
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Ditto, Coon; Unfortunately, you're right.
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Yisrael should be kol echad... Big big mistake to have two different Jewish states.
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I am against it for many reasons. Some of them is that divided people are less likely to fail. I am against any partition in the land of Israel.
Of course there shouldn't be any partition. But if Israel gives up the territories in exchange for "peace", settlers have no other choice.
If Israeli government decides to give it to Arabs, then settlers should proclaim an independent state.
It's not a good idea because the Israeli government would turn the military against Jews in Judea and destroy their communities. They've already proven they will do it from what happened in Gaza.
Jews must not accept peaceful evacuation. If settlers resist, IDF won't have the manpower and will to expel them.
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Yes. Independent Judah [armed by Israel before establishment] allows Jews to handle the Muslim threat in the land once and for all with no legal finger to point at Israel. Who would Israel rather have as neighbors, Muslims shooting rockets into their country, or religious Jews who keep the Muslim horde at bay? Eventually Israel will have a larger Orthodox population given that the birthrate of the Haredi is much higher than secular Israelis; perhaps then reconciliation would be possible. -- If Judah receives aid from Israel [because the rest of the world would ostracize Judah], Judah can do things Israel is afraid to do.
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Yes. Independent Judah [armed by Israel before establishment] allows Jews to handle the Muslim threat in the land once and for all with no legal finger to point at Israel. Who would Israel rather have as neighbors, Muslims shooting rockets into their country, or religious Jews who keep the Muslim horde at bay? Eventually Israel will have a larger Orthodox population given that the birthrate of the Haredi is much higher than secular Israelis; perhaps then reconciliation would be possible. -- If Judah receives aid from Israel [because the rest of the world would ostracize Judah], Judah can do things Israel is afraid to do.
If a partition were to take place I would hope for this scenario.
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I never read split states being successful.
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No, Israel is already too small, it needs to go from the Nile to the Euphrates, and all be one country, not split into two or more.
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We need more than Judea to survive. We need the whole from the Sinai to where Iraq is now.
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Yes, it looks like this may be the best way to foil the antisemitic plans of Bibi and the Israeli regime to throw the Jews out of Judea for the creation of an arab nazi state.
They are not willing to face casualties and actual violence in such an affair. Gaza worked because Jews did not resist and did not put up violence in self-defense. With violent self-defense, it is a completely different story.
Needless to say, every state has a defense apparatus, a military, etc. Certainly not much needs to be elaborated on this point.
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If Israeli government decides to give it to Arabs, then settlers should proclaim an independent state.
It's not a good idea because the Israeli government would turn the military against Jews in Judea and destroy their communities. They've already proven they will do it from what happened in Gaza.
Like they turns the military against the arabs in Judea and destroy their communities?
What was proven in Gaza has no relation to an actual Jewish state of Judea because there are several steps that occur before that state is declared, and these steps make the Israeli regime capitulate to the Jews like they do to the Arabs.
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Yes. Independent Judah [armed by Israel before establishment] allows Jews to handle the Muslim threat in the land once and for all with no legal finger to point at Israel. Who would Israel rather have as neighbors, Muslims shooting rockets into their country, or religious Jews who keep the Muslim horde at bay? Eventually Israel will have a larger Orthodox population given that the birthrate of the Haredi is much higher than secular Israelis; perhaps then reconciliation would be possible. -- If Judah receives aid from Israel [because the rest of the world would ostracize Judah], Judah can do things Israel is afraid to do.
That's sort of the brilliance of it all. Even the evil israeli regime, and whatever percentage of the seculars who will resent the judean state, have something to gain from this...
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I'm with KWRBT.
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All Jews should live in Israel. Given that we are not all tzadikim, the ones who live to a higher standard should live in the center and the ones that follow in their light should be around them, so I support the idea of two independent Jewish states where Jerusalem is run by real torah law..
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Another beautiful thing to consider:
Arabs commit terror and acts of war against Jews and all others, claiming what doesn't belong to them is rightfully theirs.
In an attempt to mollify and pacify them, the foolish Jews agree to enter into negotiations with the Arab, promising to "make painful concessions" so that a permanent peace will result.
So then the Arab, having publicly promised to end all violence against the Jews and all others in exchange for "peace negotiations", continue to commit endless acts of terror and war against Jews and all others, demanding that either the Arab gets everything they want in advance before talks begin, or they will refuse to stop their ongoing acts of terror and war against Jews and all others which they already had promised to do; even publicly signing an internationally recognized formal Treaty on the White House lawn back on September 13th, 1993.
It is now proven beyond even the shadow of doubt that even If the Arab were to get 100% of what he demands, he would immediately commit endless acts of terror and war against Jews and all others.
THE ONLY SOLUTION -- THROW EACH AND EVERY ARAB OUT OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL NOW!
AND DEPORT ALONG WITH THEM EACH AND EVERY ISRAELI POLITICIAN WHO HAVE BOTH BUILT THEIR CAREERS AS WELL AS EARNED THEIR PERSONAL FORTUNES BY "NEGOTIATING" WITH TERRORISTS; THUS COMMITTING TREASON AGAINST THE JEWISH PEOPLE.
There is EVERYTHING to be gained by deporting them, and nothing to fear from it other than Arabs committing endless acts of terror and war against Jews and all other people.
NO ARABS, NO TERROR!
How much more simple does it get?
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Another beautiful thing to consider:
Arabs commit terror and acts of war against Jews and all others, claiming what doesn't belong to them is rightfully theirs.
In an attempt to mollify and pacify them, the foolish Jews agree to enter into negotiations with the Arab, promising to "make painful concessions" so that a permanent peace will result.
So then the Arab, having publicly promised to end all violence against the Jews and all others in exchange for "peace negotiations", continue to commit endless acts of terror and war against Jews and all others, demanding that either the Arab gets everything they want in advance before talks begin, or they will refuse to stop their ongoing acts of terror and war against Jews and all others which they already had promised to do; even publicly signing an internationally recognized formal Treaty on the White House lawn back on September 13th, 1993.
It is now proven beyond even the shadow of doubt that even If the Arab were to get 100% of what he demands, he would immediately commit endless acts of terror and war against Jews and all others.
THE ONLY SOLUTION -- THROW EACH AND EVERY ARAB OUT OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL NOW!
AND DEPORT ALONG WITH THEM EACH AND EVERY ISRAELI POLITICIAN WHO HAVE BOTH BUILT THEIR CAREERS AS WELL AS EARNED THEIR PERSONAL FORTUNES BY "NEGOTIATING" WITH TERRORISTS; THUS COMMITTING TREASON AGAINST THE JEWISH PEOPLE.
There is EVERYTHING to be gained by deporting them, and nothing to fear from it other than Arabs committing endless acts of terror and war against Jews and all other people.
NO ARABS, NO TERROR!
How much more simple does it get?
This would be good too, even better actually.
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Splitting Israel into secular and religious does seem interesting. The question is what to the settlers have against the secular army of Israel? We do know G-d does not intervene , because he did not help the setters with Sharon . Pm Sharom had the stroke after he caused damage not before lol. We dont need vengeance from G-d against our enemies when all is already lost we need help so it does not happen. Hope hes listing.
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Splitting Israel into secular and religious does seem interesting. The question is what to the settlers have against the secular army of Israel? We do know G-d does not intervene , because he did not help the setters with Sharon . Pm Sharom had the stroke after he caused damage not before lol. We dont need vengeance from G-d against our enemies when all is already lost we need help so it does not happen. Hope hes listing.
As Moshe Feiglin said, it is time to "demand our 2/3"
Religious zionists make up 2/3 of combat soldiers, so in the case of a split, in the right situation with the right leverage and propaganda etc, the settlements would need to demand 2/3 of army equipment rightfully owed to them by the state. This includes tanks, artillery, and all the advanced equipment they will need to stave off the muslim hordes.
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Splitting Israel into secular and religious does seem interesting. The question is what to the settlers have against the secular army of Israel? We do know G-d does not intervene , because he did not help the setters with Sharon . Pm Sharom had the stroke after he caused damage not before lol. We dont need vengeance from G-d against our enemies when all is already lost we need help so it does not happen. Hope hes listing.
As Moshe Feiglin said, it is time to "demand our 2/3"
Religious zionists make up 2/3 of combat soldiers, so in the case of a split, in the right situation with the right leverage and propaganda etc, the settlements would need to demand 2/3 of army equipment rightfully owed to them by the state. This includes tanks, artillery, and all the advanced equipment they will need to stave off the muslim hordes.
Do you think a civil war is possible then? I think the world will really go against a real state of Israel , maybe thats the final test. We all know how god loves those! lol
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lets face it, 2 jews-5 opinions.
how about we just have a federation. where the main government handles the really important stuff, like borders, wars, foreign policy, naturalization/aliyah, currency, and have the provinces do everything else. we can have the religious people of judea-samaria have a religious government, and the leftists of tel-aviv have a leftist government.
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Splitting Israel into secular and religious does seem interesting. The question is what to the settlers have against the secular army of Israel? We do know G-d does not intervene , because he did not help the setters with Sharon . Pm Sharom had the stroke after he caused damage not before lol. We dont need vengeance from G-d against our enemies when all is already lost we need help so it does not happen. Hope hes listing.
As Moshe Feiglin said, it is time to "demand our 2/3"
Religious zionists make up 2/3 of combat soldiers, so in the case of a split, in the right situation with the right leverage and propaganda etc, the settlements would need to demand 2/3 of army equipment rightfully owed to them by the state. This includes tanks, artillery, and all the advanced equipment they will need to stave off the muslim hordes.
Do you think a civil war is possible then? I think the world will really go against a real state of Israel , maybe thats the final test. We all know how G-d loves those! lol
Hopefully it would never come to a civil war, and a proper plan for partition and a resistance cell will prevent the need for that since it would be a disaster and enable the arabs to destroy us. To be clear, the Israeli regime would be handing over this weaponry to the Jews as the alternative to handing it over to the arabs, and the demand would be made in light of the fact that a large part of the army would be defecting from the IDF with its representative operational political wing making this request/demand for arms along with this.
If a civil war breaks out, that could be our end chas veshalom. Hopefully a plan like this implemented properly would have as one of its goals the prevention of a civil war. Currently, we are on path for a civil war type scenario (although one side is basically allowing itself to be killed by the Israeli regime). That definitely needs to change, state of Judea or no state of Judea.
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lets face it, 2 jews-5 opinions.
how about we just have a federation. where the main government handles the really important stuff, like borders, wars, foreign policy, naturalization/aliyah, currency, and have the provinces do everything else. we can have the religious people of judea-samaria have a religious government, and the leftists of tel-aviv have a leftist government.
The "main government" composed of the same traitors who are currently deciding Judea and Samaria's border shrink and disappear, while tel aviv's remain the same, and while they decide foreign policy of forming an enemy arab state in our heartland? No thanks.
Either way your scenario is a pipe dream because the need for a state of Judea centers on the fact of life that the current regime and its controllers will not simply cede its power to another group or give up part of the control it has over Israeli society.
The strength of a state of Judea concept is the following - if this ruling elite decides that Judea and Samaria is no longer part of "Israeli" society as they see it and which they rule over, then fine, we now offer them an alternative - Instead of arming arabs in place of Israeli presence, arm Jews in place of Israeli presence. And instead of having a growing religious zionist population as enemy #1, the attempted destruction of which motivates many of the elites' decisions , and as a growing political rival who are a serious danger of democratically eroding the current elites' power base, this all-important sector will instead secede from the "israeli" nation (Disengage, if you will) and form their own, with their own military and government power, in locations where the "Israeli" elites have no interest governing and have no interest occupying. They don't lose their power-grip over Israeli society in this scenario - in fact, their control grows. (but ultimately, the borders of Judea would expand in the longterm, while the medinat Israel would shrink shrivel and die over the next generations - something that the elites will be in denial about til the end).
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which is the flag for Judea
(http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/il%7Djudea.gif)
or this
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TTJ7qljsr0w/R1Sdo4MkS4I/AAAAAAAAAGY/wC2AgGRVEWo/s320/nahshonsflag.jpg)
which do you like more?
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TTJ7qljsr0w/R1Sdo4MkS4I/AAAAAAAAAGY/wC2AgGRVEWo/s320/nahshonsflag.jpg)
This one is very nice to look at.
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looks OK, i still like the medinat israel flag a little more though. probably because im use to it.
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which is the flag for Judea
(http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/il%7Djudea.gif)
or this
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TTJ7qljsr0w/R1Sdo4MkS4I/AAAAAAAAAGY/wC2AgGRVEWo/s320/nahshonsflag.jpg)
which do you like more?
I like the second a lot better - much simpler.
Are there other types of menora designs out there?
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I would like to see a large blue Lion of Judea added underneath the menorah.
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Yes but we need the arabs out.
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Yes but we need the arabs out.
Needless to say, there will be no "purity of arms" bureaucratic shackles to handcuff troops of the Judean military. They will deal with problems as problems need to be dealt with. The only moral code for the troops will be the one called for by Torah and halacha. (Rambam is one of the few sources with detailed elaborations on the laws of Jewish military, but other sources exist as well).
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lets face it, 2 jews-5 opinions.
how about we just have a federation. where the main government handles the really important stuff, like borders, wars, foreign policy, naturalization/aliyah, currency, and have the provinces do everything else. we can have the religious people of judea-samaria have a religious government, and the leftists of tel-aviv have a leftist government.
The "main government" composed of the same traitors who are currently deciding Judea and Samaria's border shrink and disappear, while tel aviv's remain the same, and while they decide foreign policy of forming an enemy arab state in our heartland? No thanks.
Either way your scenario is a pipe dream because the need for a state of Judea centers on the fact of life that the current regime and its controllers will not simply cede its power to another group or give up part of the control it has over Israeli society.
.....
of course i dont want the current israeli establishment to stay in power. we can just use something like the great compromise. 2 Knessets, one is representation based on population, the other, each province gets 6 senators regardless. (i know the original great compromise had the senate be 2/state, but i don't expect Israel to have to many provinces). judea and samaria each get 6 senators while tel-aviv ha-merkaz, also get 6 each, so that the leftists and the religious Zionists cannot interfere with eachother that much.
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I like the second a lot better - much simpler.
Are there other types of menora designs out there?
[/quote]
Yes there are, and with Yawehs name
(http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/FlagMenorahJPG.jpg)
Its a shame the Jewish states flag isn't more Jewish
It can be bought there.
(http://www.israeli-gifts.com/images/jerusalem-flags.gif)
I for one would fly any of those over the star of 'David'
I think Rabbi Kahane wanted the flag to change as well does anyone have pic of it please?
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I like the second a lot better - much simpler.
Are there other types of menora designs out there?
Yes there are, and with Yawehs name
Yaweh?
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I like the second a lot better - much simpler.
Are there other types of menora designs out there?
Yes there are, and with Yawehs name
Yaweh?
Come on... Some respect for the 'name' if you know what I mean....
BTW, we do not pronounce it... like that either..
What most say is "Yud Kay Vav Kay"
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I like the second a lot better - much simpler.
Are there other types of menora designs out there?
Yes there are, and with Yawehs name
Yaweh?
Come on... Some respect for the 'name' if you know what I mean....
BTW, we do not pronounce it... like that either..
What most say is "Yud Kay Vav Kay"
That was why I asked my question. (for some reason, you quoted me)
"Yaweh?"
Maybe you can let him answer?
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I voted "No". I don't believe that there should be an "Eretz Y'Israel" for this group and another "Eretz Y'Israel" for that group. We should all be Jews living in one land -- i.e., our homeland, the land of Israel. I believe it's really bad news if even Jews can't live with Jews.
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I purposely used an incorrect spelling of the name of god with English letters. That's what the letters o. The flag mean. . And I know most memebers are unaware of the ykvk way of saying it
If I'm mistaken I would love to learn more, I have allways been interested in that as well as the when the shemhamaforshim
I would never use the lords name in vane
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I voted "No". I don't believe that there should be an "Eretz Y'Israel" for this group and another "Eretz Y'Israel" for that group. We should all be Jews living in one land -- i.e., our homeland, the land of Israel. I believe it's really bad news if even Jews can't live with Jews.
It sounds like you are confusing Eretz Yisrael with medinat Yisrael. There is only one Eretz Yisrael no matter who is in power over what parcel of land.
If there is a Judean state, then medinat Israel is simply a foreign occupier who currently resides on part of Eretz Yisrael while Judea controls Eretz Yisrael's heartland.
It sure would be nice to live together and all, but it seems that the medinat Israel would rather kill us and live with muslim terrorists than to live with real Jews.
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I purposely used an incorrect spelling of the name of G-d with English letters. That's what the letters o. The flag mean. . And I know most memebers are unaware of the ykvk way of saying it
If I'm mistaken I would love to learn more, I have allways been interested in that as well as the when the shemhamaforshim
I would never use the lords name in vane
Oh. People usually will say "yud kay vav kay" or I guess you could say God's name and we'd know you refer to the 4-letter name. I just thought it was odd that you used "Yaweh" because in grade school the textbooks used to describe God's name as "Hashem" and that Jews were a "cult of Hashem" - yet this pronunciation has pretty much nothing to do with the actual hebrew and I always found that odd too.
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We are forbidden to pronounce/say Hashem's Name. A HUGE sin.
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I would not support a permanent state of Judea. I would only support a transitional state of Judea it if it was a Torah government that had the intent of expanding into all of Greater Israel. Something like this would have to start out as a Maccabee-like movement that would not be afraid to execute Muslim terrorists and self-hating Jews because they have the conviction that G-d would fight their battles like with the Maccabees and the Jews of ancient times. They would have to be willing to take on the IDF and not sell out to foreign influences or theories of government. They would have to be righteous--G-d does not fight battles for people who aren't righteous. I really don't think there is a group like that yet so.
One point I should make clear is knowing the Communist elite in Israel, it will never recognize Judea. Their problem
is the very existence of Jews in their historical homeland, where the Temple was shining from glory, where the Jews
lightened the Nations.
If somebody thinks Israel will just let the Jews have Judea and Samaria, he's doing a huge mistake and basic misunderstanding
of the situation. Israel will even go to war with Judea and Judea will not rest until it destroys the Israeli Defense Forces in warfare,
thus creating fear among the Communists from continuing their war against Judaism and right-wingers.
The choice is between a response to the war the Left (=The State of Israel) declared on us, which will be the creation of the State of Judea,
hence the continuation of a civil war (which is not always bad in its essence as the Maccabees showed us) - or unity in the huge graveyard
the State of Israel will become by own her creation - the State of Palestine (which is already, de facto, existing).
It's a choice between more Altalenas and a Second Holocaust on the one hand, and the Maccabee redemption on the other.
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We are forbidden to pronounce/say Hashem's Name. A HUGE sin.
Even though I'm not Jewish when I saw the pronunciation key I scrolled past it quickly because I don't want to know how to pronounce it correctly because I don't want to say it in my sleep or something and be disrespectful.
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I would not support a permanent state of Judea. I would only support a transitional state of Judea it if it was a Torah government that had the intent of expanding into all of Greater Israel. Something like this would have to start out as a Maccabee-like movement that would not be afraid to execute Muslim terrorists and self-hating Jews because they have the conviction that G-d would fight their battles like with the Maccabees and the Jews of ancient times. They would have to be willing to take on the IDF and not sell out to foreign influences or theories of government. They would have to be righteous--G-d does not fight battles for people who aren't righteous. I really don't think there is a group like that yet so.
One point I should make clear is knowing the Communist elite in Israel, it will never recognize Judea. Their problem
is the very existence of Jews in their historical homeland, where the Temple was shining from glory, where the Jews
lightened the Nations.
If somebody thinks Israel will just let the Jews have Judea and Samaria, he's doing a huge mistake and basic misunderstanding
of the situation.
There is no "letting" involved. The Jews will achieve territorial concessions in a matter similar to the way the Arabs did. That or be destroyed. A tough choice to make - what they call, "between a rock and a hard place."
The choice is between a response to the war the Left (=The State of Israel) declared on us, which will be the creation of the State of Judea,
hence the continuation of a civil war (which is not always bad in its essence as the Maccabees showed us)
There is a way to avoid an all-out civil war and I think that should be a goal of any such movement.
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If there is a civil war in Israel, many Jewish people will die, and that is something that should be avoided. Israel was supposed to be a safe place for Jews to live, away from the hatred of the Gentile nations. It's really a shame that even there, there is so much conflict and hatred against Jews that they can't even feel safe there.
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Speaking of a state of Judea, here is the latest from Virtual Medinat Yehudah at http://virtualjudah.wordpress.com/
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,49911.0.html
As you can see with the graphic at the header of that site, this fellow recommends a simple Chai symbol inside horizontal black bars as the provisional flag. This makes it easy to spraypaint in propaganda efforts, requiring only a few quick strokes so the culprit can then run away.
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I voted not sure. A State of Judea should only come into existence at a time when either an Israeli pullout from the West Bank is a for sure thing, or the religious movement in Israel has absolutely no chance. Both of these conditions are not yet met. To the contrary I think the religious movement is getting more powerful. God willing we will see a religious government in all the Eretz Yisrael soon.
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I voted not sure. A State of Judea should only come into existence at a time when either an Israeli pullout from the West Bank is a for sure thing, or the religious movement in Israel has absolutely no chance. Both of these conditions are not yet met. To the contrary I think the religious movement is getting more powerful. G-d willing we will see a religious government in all the Eretz Yisrael soon.
The religious factions in Israel will not get more powerful because the regime will not allow them to. Witness the current round of "peace talks" and surrender plans which are designed to uproot the religious nationalist society and rip apart the fabric of their communities by the shreds. We have already witnessed this among the Aza population, whose lives were destroyed and some of whom are still wandering and looking for jobs. There is no way to lead a political revolution or demographic-power transition when the members of the sector are all trying to put the pieces of their lives back together and simply survive. Especially not with a tyrannical regime like the one we are dealing with who will use every trick in the book including illegal and antidemocratic measures to make sure that they do not lose their own power over their own type of state that they prefer.
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anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.
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anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.
I don't think the Israeli regime is interested in compromise when it comes to their own hegemony over the Israeli state. They are willing to shrink that state to consolidate their control over whatever is left of it (and they consider the arab threat with suicidal contempt) in order to destroy their main political enemies. But I don't believe they will "compromise" beyond that.
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I voted not sure. A State of Judea should only come into existence at a time when either an Israeli pullout from the West Bank is a for sure thing, or the religious movement in Israel has absolutely no chance. Both of these conditions are not yet met. To the contrary I think the religious movement is getting more powerful. G-d willing we will see a religious government in all the Eretz Yisrael soon.
The religious factions in Israel will not get more powerful because the regime will not allow them to. Witness the current round of "peace talks" and surrender plans which are designed to uproot the religious nationalist society and rip apart the fabric of their communities by the shreds. We have already witnessed this among the Aza population, whose lives were destroyed and some of whom are still wandering and looking for jobs. There is no way to lead a political revolution or demographic-power transition when the members of the sector are all trying to put the pieces of their lives back together and simply survive. Especially not with a tyrannical regime like the one we are dealing with who will use every trick in the book including illegal and antidemocratic measures to make sure that they do not lose their own power over their own type of state that they prefer.
1.I think you misunderstood when I said “religious movement” I meant people like the Kahanists. Those “religious” phonies are not a part of the religious movement.
2.You raised the issue of the Gaza pullout (a) I think this is why people will not allow it to happen again. They still have rockets and problems from it, not to mention the fact the settlers were completely mistreated. (b) I do not think Netanyahu has the will to pullout from the West Bank. He may talk the game, but I do not think he’ll walk down that road. (c) I think a war between Israel and Arab countries may soon be a reality. These things tend to reduce the liberal madness.
3. Remember it doesn’t take much to influence a government. Only 13% of the United States is black, yet look at their lobbying power in the Democratic Party and the United States as a whole.
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anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.
I don't think the Israeli regime is interested in compromise when it comes to their own hegemony over the Israeli state. They are willing to shrink that state to consolidate their control over whatever is left of it (and they consider the arab threat with suicidal contempt) in order to destroy their main political enemies. But I don't believe they will "compromise" beyond that.
who says my compromise involves negotiating with the israeli regime? "great compromise" refers to the combination of the new jersey plan and the virginia plan. basically have bicameral parliament, like the house and the senate which together make the US congress. strict construction means that the main government can only do a limited number of things specified by the constitution.
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2.You raised the issue of the Gaza pullout (a) I think this is why people will not allow it to happen again.
What people? And what will they do to stop it?
They still have rockets and problems from it, not to mention the fact the settlers were completely mistreated.
Who is they? Do you think the govt cares about the rockets raining down on poor peripheral Israeli towns? Not one iota. Because they knew this would be the result when they carried out this plan. And now the result presents itself. They were willing to deal with that "nuisance" and are willing once more from other areas where they think "PA police" will help their situation.
(b) I do not think Netanyahu has the will to pullout from the West Bank. He may talk the game, but I do not think he’ll walk down that road.
For what reason does he not have the will to do it? He will first sell it to the public, then he will do it. It's pretty simple. Sharon pulled it off very smoothly. He will emulate that model and work off those methods.
(c) I think a war between Israel and Arab countries may soon be a reality. These things tend to reduce the liberal madness.
Is Bibi a liberal? I don't think so. Yet he is also mad. I don't think war will do anything except force them to postpone the suicide operations. The arabs are probably smart enough to let bibi shoot himself in the foot first. And even if they aren't, we will eventually return to the "bargaining table" because that is an end goal of the govt. No matter what happens, they have shown consistently, the national suicide talks with PLO/Fatah is their end goal. So if God gives us a miracle that something stops it, that's great, but there's really nothing that's going to make these criminals think twice about their insane policy.
3. Remember it doesn’t take much to influence a government. Daniel Pipes says he thinks the Jihadists only make up 10-15% of the Muslim population. How many more religious people are there in Israel?
Then why hasn't Oslo been stopped? We are how many years later now? And yet we have achieved nothing to stop it.
Speaking of that figure that Pipes loves to trot out, I'd like to know where Daniel Pipes gets his "estimate" from. Did he do a personal survey? lol. That clown also supported Gaza Expulsion, and when the time is right, he will get on board and support "West Bank" Pullout as well. (Or more expulsion first!)
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anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.
I don't think the Israeli regime is interested in compromise when it comes to their own hegemony over the Israeli state. They are willing to shrink that state to consolidate their control over whatever is left of it (and they consider the arab threat with suicidal contempt) in order to destroy their main political enemies. But I don't believe they will "compromise" beyond that.
who says my compromise involves negotiating with the israeli regime? "great compromise" refers to the combination of the new jersey plan and the virginia plan. basically have bicameral parliament, like the house and the senate which together make the US congress. strict construction means that the main government can only do a limited number of things specified by the constitution.
What makes you think the Israeli regime would accept upon itself such limitations? You have to be joking!
Who are they, the founding fathers? Netanyahu will wake up Thomas Jefferson and Olmert will become George washington? Please be realistic.
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anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.
I don't think the Israeli regime is interested in compromise when it comes to their own hegemony over the Israeli state. They are willing to shrink that state to consolidate their control over whatever is left of it (and they consider the arab threat with suicidal contempt) in order to destroy their main political enemies. But I don't believe they will "compromise" beyond that.
who says my compromise involves negotiating with the israeli regime? "great compromise" refers to the combination of the new jersey plan and the virginia plan. basically have bicameral parliament, like the house and the senate which together make the US congress. strict construction means that the main government can only do a limited number of things specified by the constitution.
What makes you think the Israeli regime would accept upon itself such limitations? You have to be joking!
Who are they, the founding fathers? Netanyahu will wake up Thomas Jefferson and Olmert will become George washington? Please be realistic.
did i say we need to ask the israeli regime weather they want this or not? no, we should do that plan after democratically booting the regime out.
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anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.
I don't think the Israeli regime is interested in compromise when it comes to their own hegemony over the Israeli state. They are willing to shrink that state to consolidate their control over whatever is left of it (and they consider the arab threat with suicidal contempt) in order to destroy their main political enemies. But I don't believe they will "compromise" beyond that.
who says my compromise involves negotiating with the israeli regime? "great compromise" refers to the combination of the new jersey plan and the virginia plan. basically have bicameral parliament, like the house and the senate which together make the US congress. strict construction means that the main government can only do a limited number of things specified by the constitution.
What makes you think the Israeli regime would accept upon itself such limitations? You have to be joking!
Who are they, the founding fathers? Netanyahu will wake up Thomas Jefferson and Olmert will become George washington? Please be realistic.
did i say we need to ask the israeli regime weather they want this or not? no, we should do that plan after democratically booting the regime out.
I may have been confused by your comment. I thought by "bicameral" you meant one faction is the Judean leadership and the other is the Israeli. I may not have understood what you were writing there. Please explain.
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anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.
I don't think the Israeli regime is interested in compromise when it comes to their own hegemony over the Israeli state. They are willing to shrink that state to consolidate their control over whatever is left of it (and they consider the arab threat with suicidal contempt) in order to destroy their main political enemies. But I don't believe they will "compromise" beyond that.
who says my compromise involves negotiating with the israeli regime? "great compromise" refers to the combination of the new jersey plan and the virginia plan. basically have bicameral parliament, like the house and the senate which together make the US congress. strict construction means that the main government can only do a limited number of things specified by the constitution.
What makes you think the Israeli regime would accept upon itself such limitations? You have to be joking!
Who are they, the founding fathers? Netanyahu will wake up Thomas Jefferson and Olmert will become George washington? Please be realistic.
did i say we need to ask the israeli regime weather they want this or not? no, we should do that plan after democratically booting the regime out.
I may have been confused by your comment. I thought by "bicameral" you meant one faction is the Judean leadership and the other is the Israeli. I may not have understood what you were writing there. Please explain.
basically, the knesset would be divided into 2 pieces, one piece would have representation based on the provincial population. the other one will have a set amount of representatives for all provinces, no matter how big or small. i got the idea from the US congress. this will ensure that no big province like tel-aviv is under-represented and no small province like Samaria is over-represented, but it will also prevent tel-aviv from being predatory.
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What people? And what will they do to stop it?
Israelis, but you probably know the politics of Israel better. The Israelis are getting frustrated, and polling data is showing this. There is also a global rise of rightwing parties, look at the Israel elections of 2009. A self described Kahanist, Michael Ben Ari, is in the Knesset. If the voters who consider themselves Orthodox were to vote for National Union next round I think we will be fine as long as we progress. If in the next round of elections we don't progress, I'll be more open to supporting State of Judea.
Another factor is of course the settlers themselves who should prepare everything that would be necessary to be self sufficient. So, if the IDF comes in (which I doubt will happen), they can expel the IDF. To do before hand I think would simply cause an unnecessary civil war, or general strife.
For what reason does he not have the will to do it? He will first sell it to the public, then he will do it. It's pretty simple. Sharon pulled it off very smoothly. He will emulate that model and work off those methods.
I have seen interviews that have given me hope, to begin with. Sharon tried and failed. How is Netanyahu going to sell expelling all the settlers and going to pre67 lines? Netanyahu will have to expel most of the settlers from the West Bank, and withdraw close to pre67 borders for any diplomatic agreement.
Is Bibi a liberal? I don't think so. Yet he is also mad. I don't think war will do anything except force them to postpone the suicide operations. The Arabs are probably smart enough to let bibi shoot himself in the foot first. And even if they aren't, we will eventually return to the "bargaining table" because that is an end goal of the govt. No matter what happens, they have shown consistently, the national suicide talks with PLO/Fatah is their end goal. So if G-d gives us a miracle that something stops it, that's great, but there's really nothing that's going to make these criminals think twice about their insane policy.
1. Bibi is a liberal. Anyone who says you can make peace with terrorist is a liberal idiot. I do think though he still has enough sense to not withdraw from the West Bank though.
2. The only reason the Arabs won’t start a war is because they are too afraid of Iran. I think that Arab states of the Middle East are just dumb. Otherwise how can you explain them going to war with Israel at all?
3. I read somewhere once that the religious Zionist movement only got big after the ’67 war. I was basing my comments on that. Also, unless God intervenes Israel is done. Israel will not be able to come back from a West Bank withdrawal, or a civil war (baring some big miracle of course).
4. Voters and self interest. Milton Friedman once said something like you don’t need to throw the bumbs out, you just need to make the politicians need your votes.
Then why hasn't Oslo been stopped? We are how many years later now? And yet we have achieved nothing to stop it.
Speaking of that figure that Pipes loves to trot out, I'd like to know where Daniel Pipes gets his "estimate" from. Did he do a personal survey? lol. That clown also supported Gaza Expulsion, and when the time is right, he will get on board and support "West Bank" Pullout as well. (Or more expulsion first!)
1. The religious parties bought into it. They committed treason against the Torah. As I, think it was Shimon Peres (or Rabin), said he was surprised how little it took to get the religious parties on board. Also you must realize countries basically have to hit bottom.
2. I know I realized this after I had it posted a while. I changed it to blacks/US to help illustrate my point of how a well organized small group of people can influence a government.
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That clown also supported Gaza Expulsion, and when the time is right, he will get on board and support "West Bank" Pullout as well. (Or more expulsion first!)
1. The religious parties bought into it. They committed treason against the Torah. As I, think it was Shimon Peres (or Rabin), said he was surprised how little it took to get the religious parties on board. Also you must realize countries basically have to hit bottom.
It's not that they bought into it, it's that they were bought. They were bribed to go along with these plans, just like they are always bribed to go along with foreign policy agenda, and just like they will always be bribed to go along with these suicidal plans because they do not have a national vision. These so-called "religious" parties are not nationalist. They care about yeshivot and the funding for their yeshivot, and NOTHING ELSE. You pay enough money and they will sign onto anything.
There is no rational reason to believe that this will change. I wish there was. But there isn't. I think you are engaging in wishful thinking and hoping for a miracle.
2. I know I realized this after I had it posted a while. I changed it to blacks/US to help illustrate my point of how a well organized small group of people can influence a government.
Israelis are not well organized and will not achieve what the blacks did. The blacks were willing to fight. And fight they did. There is also a major difference because in America there were democratic freedoms to exploit with the civil rights agenda. Israel is a totalitarian regime
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I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.
This is my 2-state solution.
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I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.
This is my 2-state solution.
WTF? ???
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I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.
This is my 2-state solution.
This is against the Torah... All Jews united under Moshiach...
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I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.
This is my 2-state solution.
This is against the Torah... All Jews united under Moshiach...
They will be united, of course, in one nation-state.
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I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.
This is my 2-state solution.
Why?
Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi. I don't think what you said makes any sense. Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together? So what if they like different music?
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Should fans of rap music all be forced into montana while fans of country live only in texas and fans of hard rock move to NY?
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I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.
This is my 2-state solution.
Why?
Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi. I don't think what you said makes any sense. Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together? So what if they like different music?
Didn't G-d orignally allocate different locations for the 12 tribes in anceint Israel? I don't see anything wrong in different groups living in different places as long as they are living in one country. I personally get physically sick from listening to oriental music.
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I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.
This is my 2-state solution.
Why?
Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi. I don't think what you said makes any sense. Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together? So what if they like different music?
Didn't G-d orignally allocate different locations for the 12 tribes in anceint Israel? I don't see anything wrong in different groups living in different places as long as they are living in one country. I personally get physically sick from listening to oriental music.
thats actually somewhat my idea, have a federal system.
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I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.
This is my 2-state solution.
Why?
Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi. I don't think what you said makes any sense. Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together? So what if they like different music?
Didn't G-d orignally allocate different locations for the 12 tribes in anceint Israel? I don't see anything wrong in different groups living in different places as long as they are living in one country. I personally get physically sick from listening to oriental music.
thats actually somewhat my idea, have a federal system.
I think you mean a Monarchy... As Torah states will be when Moshiach comes... There is no democracy in the Messianic times.
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I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.
This is my 2-state solution.
Why?
Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi. I don't think what you said makes any sense. Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together? So what if they like different music?
Didn't G-d orignally allocate different locations for the 12 tribes in anceint Israel? I don't see anything wrong in different groups living in different places as long as they are living in one country. I personally get physically sick from listening to oriental music.
thats actually somewhat my idea, have a federal system.
I think you mean a Monarchy... As Torah states will be when Moshiach comes... There is no democracy in the Messianic times.
we don't know who the decedents of david are. perhaps we can have a constitutional monarchy like britian with the monarch being the most likely decedent of david, until the geula comes in.
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I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.
This is my 2-state solution.
Why?
Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi. I don't think what you said makes any sense. Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together? So what if they like different music?
Didn't G-d orignally allocate different locations for the 12 tribes in anceint Israel? I don't see anything wrong in different groups living in different places as long as they are living in one country. I personally get physically sick from listening to oriental music.
thats actually somewhat my idea, have a federal system.
I think you mean a Monarchy... As Torah states will be when Moshiach comes... There is no democracy in the Messianic times.
we don't know who the decedents of david are. perhaps we can have a constitutional monarchy like britian with the monarch being the most likely decedent of david, until the geula comes in.
There are those who know that they are of the Davidic line... When the true Nation of Israel (Am Yisroel) is established then we will need to establish the King of the Jewish people. May we live to witness this..
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/704412/Rabbi_Sol_Roth/Judaism_and_Democracy
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/747009/Rabbi_Emmanuel_Rackman/Democratic_Theology_
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I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.
This is my 2-state solution.
Why?
Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi. I don't think what you said makes any sense. Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together? So what if they like different music?
Didn't G-d orignally allocate different locations for the 12 tribes in anceint Israel? I don't see anything wrong in different groups living in different places as long as they are living in one country. I personally get physically sick from listening to oriental music.
But we're not in those tribe delineations anymore! We are mostly from 1-3 tribes as of the Second Commonwealth times. It makes no sense to say that since certain Jews sojourned for a while in Spain, they are now a different tribe than Jews from the same few tribes who ended up in France!
I really don't understand - you can't stand their music therefore they have to be segregated from you? Don't listen to the music and listen to your own.
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Let he soldiers unilateraly withdraw from Judea and Samaria, but do NOT expel the Jews from their homes. Those Jews who wish to stay, leave them alone to fend for themselves. When the Arabs attempt to kill and drive out the Jews, the Jews will defeat the Arabs and it will then be a winner-take-all situation. At that point, Judea can rejoin Israel and it will all be one contiguous Jewish state.
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Let he soldiers unilateraly withdraw from Judea and Samaria, but do NOT expel the Jews from their homes. Those Jews who wish to stay, leave them alone to fend for themselves. When the Arabs attempt to kill and drive out the Jews, the Jews will defeat the Arabs and it will then be a winner-take-all situation. At that point, Judea can rejoin Israel and it will all be one contiguous Jewish state.
I think once the IDF leaves, these Jews have no choice but to set up their own autonomous de facto leadership and they have to be organized in order to defeat the arab hordes. So this will require tactical measures and coordinated military plans. They can then serve as a proxy (whether Israel proper is willing or unwilling, shares their goals or not) to the state of Israel, but should never make the mistake of subjecting themselves to the foreign Israeli rule which sabotaged and betrayed them.
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The voters who voted yes are not different at all from the fakestinian.This is the true dream of the zionist-an independent fakestinian or neturei karta harta in judea and samaria in order to weaken israel and create a new wave of refugees that will come to the western world.
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The voters who voted yes are not different at all from the fakestinian.This is the true dream of the zionist-an independent fakestinian or neturei karta harta in judea and samaria in order to weaken israel and create a new wave of refugees that will come to the western world.
בס''ד
You are Ben Mizrachi, a 16 year old Israeli Jew who defends Hitler and the Nazis. You joined StørmFrønt, called yourself an "Aryan" and a "fascist", and cursed G-d and Torah Judaism. Now you attack Zionism.
You are also an honorary member of Steven Weigang's German Nazi forum.
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Dividing Israel and making different states will weaken Israels ability to fight terrorism. God does not want this land divided, of this I am 100% sure!
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Dividing Israel and making different states will weaken Israels ability to fight terrorism. G-d does not want this land divided, of this I am 100% sure!
Debbie,
What would you say if it actually strengthened Israel's ability to fight terrorism by having an unfettered jewish proxy residing in Judea and Samaria that would execute terrorist Arabs without restraint? I have no doubts that Shabak presence would not cease in these locations just because IDF presence is removed.