JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Dan Ben Noah on October 06, 2010, 02:10:32 PM
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Shalom
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I'm pretty sure that there is no doctrine regarding these matters.
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Like most subjects, there are going to be multiple views in the rishonim and sources of hashkafa.
The Rambam rejects that there are demons, even though some rabbis of the Talmud had discussions about them and ultimately included them into the canonized text of the Talmud (much moreso the Bavli, but also a couple of places in Yerushalmi from I've been told).
Personally, I don't think there is any such thing as demons.
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So who were the angels G-d charged with error?
I don't know. I don't even know what that means.
Isn't it just saying that even the angels of God are not without error
(remember the passage where they are "rebuked" for rejoicing at the drowning egyptians?)
So how much more so are humans not without error.
Nonetheless, I don't really know what angels are.
But I don't really see what you're saying.
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Also, I assure you that Rambam learned and understood Iyov. Maybe he has a commentary on it somewhere? I don't know.
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Although angels don't have evil impulses that drive them to sin; they can still make mistakes by choosing the wrong decision on what is the will of G-d.
So for example when the angels went to Sdom {Sodom} they mistakenly conveyed to Lot that certain powers of G-d, were their power.
They were therefore punished by having power withheld from them until they reached the city.
See Breishit/Genesis 19:22
In the Talmud tractate Yoma, the sages taught that the angel Gavriel, was punished for not carrying out the punishment of the Jewish people in the way directed by G-d and also for unnecessarily reporting bad.
His power to act for the benefit of Israel was therefore lowered until in the merit of Daniel, he was restored to his proper level, when struggling against the angel that represented the interests of Persia {Paras}. see Daniel 10 verses 12 and 13
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What about passages like the following from Job? Keep in mind that Job had to deal with Satan.
Job 18 If G-d places no trust in his servants,
if he charges his angels with error,
19 how much more those who live in houses of clay,
whose foundations are in the dust,
who are crushed more readily than a moth!
Job is a book about doubts and reassurance of faith. I think the whole thing about Satan arguing with God about Job is metaphoric.
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I think it is logical that any sentient being other than God makes mistakes.
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The Jewish belief is that angels are created specifically to do G-d's bidding, they have no free will. So saying that G-d found error in the angels would mean that they are imperfect, which either means they chose to do wrong or that G-d made them incorrectly.
And there is no passage in the Tanach about the angels being rebuked for rejoicing at drowning Egyptians to my knowledge.
Though it is not in Tanach, the story about the Angels being rebuked for wanting to sing is in Talmud...
http://ohr.edu/holidays/pesach/ask_the_rabbi/3474
From: Barry in Seattle
Dear Rabbi,
Why do we read the complete hallel for only the first day of Pesach but not the rest of the holiday? I think this is different than on Chanukah when we read the complete hallel for the entire holiday. Weren’t the miracles that occurred regarding Pesach greater than Chanukah?
Dear Barry,
After departing Egypt on what became the first day of Passover, the Jews reached the Sea of Reeds (Red Sea) on the seventh day. As you know, they were pursued by the Egyptians in chariots of war led by Pharaoh who intended to annihilate them. Trapped with the sea before them and the Egyptian army rapidly approaching from behind, the Jews turned their hearts upward. In that merit, G-d miraculously split the sea and the Jews passed through.
As the last Jews exited the sea, the last of the Egyptians had finished entering in after them. The raging waters held at bay were let loose with a fury and drowned the entire Egyptian army. Having witnessed this awesome miracle and surreal salvation, the Jews broke out in song and praise of G-d, “Then Moses and the children of Israel sang this song to the L-rd, and they spoke, saying, I will sing to the L-rd, for very exalted is He; a horse and its rider He cast into the sea” (Ex. 15:1).
According to the Midrash the angels observed all this from on high and also wanted to chime in and praise. G-d reprimanded them saying, “My creations are drowning in the sea and you wish to sing?!” From here we learn that that the joy of the salvation must be tempered by sorrow over the destruction of the enemy, as in the verse “Do not rejoice in the downfall of your enemy” (Prov. 24:17).
Therefore, the hallel of this day, the seventh day of Pesach, is not completed since our joy over the miraculous salvation at the sea is marred by the loss of life of the Egyptians. And since the hallel is not completed on this last day, it’s abridged for the intermediate days as well, so that they should not be viewed as more important than the concluding festival day.
You might ask, If G-d stopped the angels from singing, why did Moses and the Jews sing — and why didn’t G-d stop them as he stopped the angels? And if He didn’t stop them, then why shouldn’t we sing as well? Furthermore, according to this, we shouldn’t complete the hallel on the first day either, as there was also great loss of life in the plague of the firstborns. Why do we complete it then? Well, I’m glad you asked. All can be answered with the same idea.
G-d did not allow the angels to sing because they were only spectators and did not actually experience the miracle themselves. They were therefore expected to consider both the salvation and the destruction simultaneously and reduce their joy. However, the Jews of that generation had actually lived through the most harrowing of experiences and literally saw G-d’s salvation with their own eyes. Their joy was completely focused on the miracles, then, and not on the destruction. Accordingly, this reason also applies to future generations of Jews who did not actually experience the miraculous salvation but were more like distant spectators. Therefore we don’t complete the hallel on this last day, or on the intermediate days either, as explained above.
However, the reason we do complete the hallel on the first day despite the destruction of G-d’s creatures in the plague of the firstborns is based on the injunction incumbent on every Jew to view himself as if he had actually partaken in the exodus from Egypt. Since our appreciation and joy is to be so great that we are to feel as if we had actually experienced the exodus ourselves, for this reason we recite the complete hallel on the first night and day of Pesach.
In that hour, the ministering angels wished to sing songs of praise before G-d, but He rebuked them, saying: "My handiwork is drowning in the sea, and you wish to sing before me?!"
(Talmud, Sanhedrin 39b)
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Actually in the story of Job, HaSoton was doing the job he was created for. Soton is the angel who acts as the prosecutor of man, he also acts as the evil inclination in man, and he also acts as the angel of death...
http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html
So the angels are referred to as perpetually standing, but we are movers. Our purpose is to keep on moving, to keep on improving ourselves, and to keep on rising.
And how do we do it? By constant battle with the Evil Inclination.
So now we have to revise our understanding of Satan. Satan is not a fallen angel. Satan is merely an angel with a dirty job. Satan does not have a rival kingdom. Satan is not in competition with G-d, and Satan does not want followers or worshipers. He's not even happy when people obey him and sin.
Satan is the angel who tempts us, and the angel who prosecutes us in Heaven. He is also the Angel of Death. The angel who tries to make us sin is the same angel who accuses us in the Heavenly Court, and the same angel who carries out the death sentence.
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Re: "it is logical that any sentient being other than G-d makes mistakes. "
Well, if G-d created sentient beings who make mistakes, doesn't it stand to reason that G-d must therefore have to at least once made a mistake, in order to know what a mistake is so He can create it?
:teach:
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Re: "it is logical that any sentient being other than G-d makes mistakes. "
Well, if G-d created sentient beings who make mistakes, doesn't it stand to reason that G-d must therefore have to at least once made a mistake, in order to know what a mistake is so He can create it?
:teach:
The first 'mistake' is what brought death into the world. Assisted by the external Yetzer Hara of Chava embodied in the serpent...
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What about passages like the following from Job? Keep in mind that Job had to deal with Satan.
Job 18 If G-d places no trust in his servants,
if he charges his angels with error,
19 how much more those who live in houses of clay,
whose foundations are in the dust,
who are crushed more readily than a moth!
Job is a book about doubts and reassurance of faith. I think the whole thing about Satan arguing with G-d about Job is metaphoric.
I agree.
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The Jewish belief is that angels are created specifically to do G-d's bidding, they have no free will. So saying that G-d found error in the angels would mean that they are imperfect, which either means they chose to do wrong or that G-d made them incorrectly.
And there is no passage in the Tanach about the angels being rebuked for rejoicing at drowning Egyptians to my knowledge.
I'm pretty sure it's a midrash. And its authors were chazal. The same chazal who also read and understood Job and canonized it!
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Re: "it is logical that any sentient being other than G-d makes mistakes. "
Well, if G-d created sentient beings who make mistakes, doesn't it stand to reason that G-d must therefore have to at least once made a mistake, in order to know what a mistake is so He can create it?
:teach:
Why does God have to make a mistake in order to know what a mistake is? Things can be known without first being experienced.
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The Jewish belief is that angels are created specifically to do G-d's bidding, they have no free will. So saying that G-d found error in the angels would mean that they are imperfect, which either means they chose to do wrong or that G-d made them incorrectly.
And there is no passage in the Tanach about the angels being rebuked for rejoicing at drowning Egyptians to my knowledge.
I'm pretty sure it's a midrash. And its authors were chazal. The same chazal who also read and understood Job and canonized it!
Have you heard the belief that Moshe wrote the Book of Job? I studied this book when I was in mourning for my father in Jan last (jewish) year.
http://www.torah.org/learning/iyov/intro.html
The Malbim, in the introduction to his commentary on this holy book, explains that the main purpose of the Book of Job is to expound upon one of the most perplexing phenomena in the human experience; the apparent lack of justice throughout history. All too often the righteous suffer and the wicked prosper. The underlying pain in this question has bothered the great thinkers in every generation including the greatest of all prophets, Moses.
It is the confusion which results from considering this paradox that led many people to reject the path of belief and faith in a righteous and living G-d.
Job was a devout and righteous man, yet his suffering was terrible and came for no apparent reason. As a man of unwavering faith, Job could not reconcile his belief in a merciful G-d with the tragedy of his own lot. Therefore, he felt it was reasonable to surmise that in fact, G-d does not concern Himself with the welfare of human beings. He neither rewards nor punishes according to our deeds. G-d is too exalted and man is too lowly for Him to be bothered with our behavior and needs.
He concluded that the fate of mankind is out of our hands, that we are subject to mechanical forces beyond our control set irrevocably in motion at the time of creation. The results of our decisions and actions deceptively appear to be the outcome of our own free will. In reality they are a product of celestial prescripts. If our deeds are the consequence of predetermined design we cannot be rewarded or held accountable for them. Job's answer to his own suffering is that he is the victim of fate, until his friend Elihu finally convinces him otherwise.
Before we begin a conceptual analysis of this holy book it will be helpful to clarify four things:
1. Who wrote it?
2. What is its content?
3. In what form is the material presented?
4. What is the purpose of this book?
Let us consider each these questions:
1. Who wrote it?
From chazal (our Sages) z"l, it is clear that the authorship of this book is attributed to Moshe (Moses) Rabbeinu (our teacher). This point is discussed in the tractate Bava Bathra page14b. The Malbim explained that Moshe wrote it to console the Hebrew nation when they were enslaved and suffering under Egyptian oppression.
2. What is its content?
The book of Job (in Hebrew Iyov) is the story of an exceedingly righteous man who is afflicted with horrific suffering for no apparent reason. While the main character is obviously Iyov, it is not at all clear who this person was. In fact the Talmud ( Bava Bathra page 14b ) contains a long dispute if
Iyov was a Jew, a gentile, or indeed if he at all existed.
According to the latter opinion the book of Job is a parable. It seems that most of our sages did not accept this opinion. But even according to this minority opinion we cannot relegate this work to the realm of empty fiction or myth. We can confidently claim that it is the greatest commentary on human suffering ever written.
It is interesting to note that the Vilna Gaon offers a fascinating interpretation of this Talmudic passage. According to his approach the latter opinion does not dispute the reality of Iyov. Rather it explains the purpose of his existence. He ( Iyov ) was created to be a role model ( a "mashal" in Hebrew ) from whom everyone can learn the appropriate way to accept suffering. Accordingly, we are to take a lesson from Iyov that man has no license to sit in judgment of G-d. He ( G-d ) does not need our moral approval. Although at times some of His ways may seem to be harsh they are allways based on absolute justice. Alas, the world of the absolute is often beyond our comprehension.
The tragic suffering of Iyov evokes the strong protest of all fair minded human beings: Should the righteous suffer? This question has to be one of mankind's most elusive mysteries since time immemorial. Several answers are presented and fiercely debated throughout the chapters of the book. They are forwarded by the friends of Iyov: Eliphaz, Beldad, Tzofer, and Elihu.
There is also a curiously veiled character who appears in the story; the Satan. He is the antagonist, the prosecutor, the villain (additional pejorative epithets are optional). His motivations are not clear, but his influence is clearly demonstrated. We will devote special attention to the subject of the Satan in one of our future installments.
There can be no discussion on human suffering without mention of G-d. Indeed, comprehending G-d's role in the world is essential in order to understand this book. His acquiescence to the Satan is simultaneously perplexing and disturbing. The absence of Divine intervention throughout this drama lends strong support to Iyov's contention that G-d neither scrutinizes human behavior nor concerns Himself with the human plight.
3. In what form is the material presented?
The discussions and arguments are presented in the form of a dialogue between Iyov and his friends. Each of these characters presents a unique approach to Iyov's plight. On the one hand Iyov is a believer, a man of intense faith and devout service. However, he cannot accept that a merciful, righteous G-d would consent to the dreadful suffering meted out to him at the hands of the Satan. The foundations of theology are tested in a battle field of what appears to be senseless human suffering. The issues are hotly debated between Iyov and his three friends. Finally Iyov finds balm for his wounds in the wisdom of Elihu ben Barachel.
4. What is the purpose of this book?
Moshe wrote this book as a source of consolement for his brethren who were suffering at the hands of their brutal Egyptian slave masters. They wanted to know why the righteous suffer while the wicked prosper. This was an issue with which Moshe had to struggle with his entire life time. As a young man he saw both the tranquillity of Pharaoh's palace and his brothers subjected to arduous labor and cruel torture. He felt compelled to find out if there was order and justice in the world or if man was just to suffer silently? Indeed, Moshe was so absorbed with this issue that on one momentous occasion when his intimate relationship with G-d could have secured for him whatever his heart desired, Moshe requested only two things:
1. That G-d cause His Divine Presence to dwell only amongst the Jewish nation for eternity.
2. That G-d grant him the wisdom to understand the suffering of the righteous and the prosperity of the wicked.
Our Sages tell us that although Moshe was granted his first request. The second remained concealed from him.
Our Sages reveal to us that ultimately there is an approach which can help us constructively accept our own misfortunes and suffering, however they make it clear that no absolute solution is available. Let us be patient in our investigations and all the more so in our conclusions. Let us have the humility and integrity to recognize and accept our own human limitations. After all, we have not the prophetic powers of Moshe nor the wisdom of Solomon and even they could not uncover the answer. It is crucial to realize that our limitations in understanding does not mean that suffering is without reason or plan. Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato explains in his book Daas Tevunos that part of our reward in the world to come will be that G-d will reveal to us the meaning of every bit of pain and suffering that we experienced in our life times.
PS: I brought the source of the Midrash concerning the Angels singing at the Yam Suf:
In that hour, the ministering angels wished to sing songs of praise before G-d, but He rebuked them, saying: "My handiwork is drowning in the sea, and you wish to sing before me?!"
(Talmud, Sanhedrin 39b)
For more on this Midrash : http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/avot/10avot.htm
Rabbenu Yona, in his commentary to Avot, raises yet a third factor. Triumphing at others' sorrow – expressing any form of joy over the fall of a Jewish enemy, or reciting hallel at the decline of a gentile enemy – is morally odious and halkhically forbidden. However, celebrating Hashem's victory (the death of evil, the cessation of chillul Hashem) is not only permissible, but also expected. After all – as the gemara asserts in Megilla (14a) – reading the Megilla is actually a form of hallel (which is one reason why actual hallel is not recited on Purim). The angels were not permitted to recite hallel because THEIR joy seemed to be indulging in the suffering of the Egyptians. Invulnerable to their persecution, and inactive in the historical process, they could not sense the desecration of Hashem's Name which this miracle relieved. By contrast, human beings sense Hashem's glorification when history is altered and the wicked are destroyed, and are therefore permitted to recite hallel.
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First of all, it's funny that you are willing to say that G-d made a mistake before saying that there can be fallen angels. Second of all, even if Job is just a fable to teach people patience (which apparently most rabbis think it is actual history), why would it be in the Tanach if it says something theologically inaccurate?
There must be some angels or beings who have chosen to do wrong, and that is why G-d found fault in them. No one has explained the verse I posted.
Here may lie some answers for you:
http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/64722247.html
REDEEMING CAIN
Why must this be so? Does this line deserve preservation? Is the line of Cain redeemable? The crux of this question centers on Na'ama, and the answers offered by our sages vary: Some claim that she was a worthy mate for Noach; she, as he, was righteous.17 Others identify Na'ama as a demonic figure18 who was guilty of causing even the angels to fall.19 This tradition of "fallen angels" is associated with the enigmatic "bnei Hashem" and the equally mysterious "Nefilim" who appear at the very end of Parashat Bereishit, as part of the backdrop to the generation of the flood:
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them; That the sons of the powerful saw the daughters of men that they were pretty; and they took as wives all those whom they chose. There were Nefilim in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of powerful came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men of old, men of renown. Bereishit (6:1-4)
This passage seems to outline the existence of various strata of society - even strata of humanity: the sons of the powerful, the daughters of man, the even-more-obscure Nefilim. We have suggested the possibility that the 'sons of the powerful' are "prehistoric" soulless humanoids, offspring of Adam and Eve who did not possess the breath of the divine which distinguished Adam, Eve and their son Shet.20 This line, then, would include Cain; it is preserved through Na'ama.21
SAINT OR DEMON?
Is Na'ama a demon-like temptress, or a fitting spouse for the great tzaddik, the most righteous man of the generation? We should recall that Noach's wife entered the Ark with the other women, and Rashi noted that this indicates the abstinence that would be practiced on the boat. If this is Na'ama, the conclusion is startling, the contrast stark: This woman is the daughter of Tzillah, the "trophy wife" taken by Lemech solely for the purpose of hedonistic pleasure. Here she stands, as the waters begin to cover the earth, the leader of the women who have been chosen to bring about the historic reconciliation, the rebirth of creation - by means of preserving abstinence and holiness on the ark. Seen in this light, Na'ama is anything but a brazen seductress.
As the flood narrative unfolds, so many details of the story begin to take on different hues when viewed from the perspective of Na'ama's personal history: All of the creatures board the Ark in pairs, in what may now be seen as a polemic against Lemech's bigamy and the corruption and egocentricity of that entire generation. And yet, the order of the day, the way that Creation will be preserved and redeemed, is not through the sexuality of these pairs but through their abstinence. The family unit on the Ark that is entrusted with preserving all of creation will work together with common purpose, as helpmates, as soulmates. They will assist Noach in assuming the role of caretaker for all the species - the shepherd for all of creation, as it were. Only when the descendents of Cain and of Shet join together to assume the vocation left vacant by Hevel's death can humanity be redeemed. When Noach later reverts to the role of Cain - planting a vineyard and turning his back on the role of shepherd, he is humiliated and his descendents are cursed. The role of Hevel brings salvation; the role of Cain brings ignominy.
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Re: "Things can be known without first being experienced. "
True.
But that is not the issue at hand.
The issue is this:
"If a thing has never existed, it therefore can not be known, because at the very moment in time that it is conceived of, even as a thought, it therefore does already exist and is thus known.
And if something is known, then it has already been experienced!
All this talk people always say like "Only G-d is Perfect!" or "It's impossible for G-d to make a mistake!" is just a bunch of ridiculousness because being Omniscient, Omnipotent, Eternal, and Unchanging, doesn't in any way infer some proof that a Supreme Being is incapable of making a Supreme Mistake!
I dare you to prove me wrong!
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Re: "it is logical that any sentient being other than G-d makes mistakes. "
Well, if G-d created sentient beings who make mistakes, doesn't it stand to reason that G-d must therefore have to at least once made a mistake, in order to know what a mistake is so He can create it?
:teach:
To me what you say makes little sense. God doesn't make a mistake by creating lesser being who can make mistakes, that was his will. One of the advantages of being God is that he doesn't need to learn things the hard way via trial and error like we human have to.
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Re: "it is logical that any sentient being other than G-d makes mistakes. "
Well, if G-d created sentient beings who make mistakes, doesn't it stand to reason that G-d must therefore have to at least once made a mistake, in order to know what a mistake is so He can create it?
:teach:
To me what you say makes little sense. G-d doesn't make a mistake by creating lesser being who can make mistakes, that was his will. One of the advantages of being G-d is that he doesn't need to learn things the hard way via trial and error like we human have to.
Very Good! I do agree with your logic.
Hashem doesn't have to make mistakes. He created everything, he existed before anything was even in existence. His existence cannot be fathomed by man. There was no mistake in creation, everything occured just as it did for a reason, up till this very moment, Hashem is the one who constantly is in the act of creating and re-creating reality. What I am describing takes a great amount of Emmunah and Bitachon in Hashem, and I suspect Massuh will have something witty to say about my input here.
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Interesting about the bnei Hashem that spawned the nefilim. That may indeed be related to the fallen angel idea of Job 4, even though a different word is used there (malachav, which means "his angels"). Bnei Hashem is sometimes used in the Tanach to refer to angels. But all this is just more proof that there are spiritual beings that sin. If true, this would not be G-d's mistake, but part of G-d's plan, because G-d created evil:
Isaiah 45:7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.
I think there are actually some strains of Judaism that believe in these demons or fallen angels, but unfortunately it is not mainstream enough.
I think the passages in Genesis about the Nefilim are more challenging to understanding than the passages you brought before from Job. The passages from Job simply states that even angels can make mistakes.
Regarding the Nephilim, and their origins, there is no consensus in Judaism. Some indeed believe them to be the product of angels who took human wives. But there are other who explain them as sons Of Sheth who took wives from the daughters of Kain. And there are other explanations as well.
PS: for the Hebrew readers among you:
http://www.kipa.co.il/jew/show.asp?id=2062
http://tora.us.fm/tnk1/kma/qjrim1/bn1.html
http://tora.us.fm/tnk1/messages/5597.html
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To
MassuhDGoodName
G-d is outside of time; you can not compare his knowledge of actions and things that he has to our knowledge of things, since we are bound by time and our wisdom does not work on the same basis as G-d's wisdom.
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First of all, it's funny that you are willing to say that G-d made a mistake before saying that there can be fallen angels.
What? Where did I say God made a mistake?
Please try to keep this discussion civil and do not ascribe views to me that I did not express.
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Re: "To
MassuhDGoodName
G-d is outside of time; you can not compare his knowledge of actions and things that he has to our knowledge of things, since we are bound by time and our wisdom does not work on the same basis as G-d's wisdom. "
So you agree with me! :)
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"If a thing has never existed, it therefore can not be known, because at the very moment in time that it is conceived of, even as a thought, it therefore does already exist and is thus known.
Maybe for humans, but G-d can know something before it exists because He exists beyond time.
All this talk people always say like "Only G-d is Perfect!" or "It's impossible for G-d to make a mistake!" is just a bunch of ridiculousness because being Omniscient, Omnipotent, Eternal, and Unchanging, doesn't in any way infer some proof that a Supreme Being is incapable of making a Supreme Mistake!
If something/someone is truly omniscient why would it/He make a mistake? He would know what will result. Unless by 'all-knowing' you mean only "partially-knowing?"
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Re: "To
MassuhDGoodName
G-d is outside of time; you can not compare his knowledge of actions and things that he has to our knowledge of things, since we are bound by time and our wisdom does not work on the same basis as G-d's wisdom. "
So you agree with me! :)
?
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Getting back to the original question:
The Jewish belief is that angels are created specifically to do G-d's bidding, they have no free will. So saying that G-d found error in the angels...
Perhaps these reflect conflicting views within our tradition. When you say it's "The Jewish Belief" that angels are created to do G-d's will having no free will - are you sure it's not just one hashkafic viewpoint among multiple acceptable views? Maybe it's the one that won out or is more common and so you are mistaking it for being The only acceptable Jewish view. Perhaps this passage in Iyov represents a scriptural basis for the contrary viewpoint - namely, that angels do have a degree of free will and do make mistakes. And the midrash I cited is the stream in chazal which also accepts and reflects this view. Maybe there are contrary sources in scripture which seem to contradict this and form the foundation of the view that angels have no free will and just do exactly what G-d requires of them.
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Second of all, even if Job is just a fable to teach people patience (which apparently most rabbis think it is actual history), why would it be in the Tanach if it says something theologically inaccurate?
I take exception to your language. What do you mean "JUST" a fable? Chazal talk in parables and metaphor all the time, and so did the prophets at times. These 'fables' contain profound and remarkable wisdom. The fact that it's a parable only devalues it in the eyes of those for whom chazal knew they could not say their statements straight and would have to rap things in a simplistic outer shell because most minds can't grasp what they are saying or devote seriousness to actually consider its meaning and would rather not be inconvenienced with deep thought but comforted by simple entertaining tales.
I also don't think it's just "patience" that Iyov teaches.
Now, who says that it says something "theologically inaccurate" and how exactly was that determined?
There must be some angels or beings who have chosen to do wrong, and that is why G-d found fault in them. No one has explained the verse I posted.
Could very well be.
I think people here, with our limited knowledge, have explained several aspects of the verse.
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Re: "If something/someone is truly omniscient why would it/He make a mistake? He would know what will result. Unless by 'all-knowing' you mean only "partially-knowing?" "
Haven't you ever met anyone who made mistakes on purpose?
Some folks make mitakes on purpose just to see if anyone is paying attention!
And sometimes people will make mistake after mistake and not even notice it or realize it!
So if G-d is the only Perfect Being, it stands to reason that even His mistakes are Perfect.
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Re: "If something/someone is truly omniscient why would it/He make a mistake? He would know what will result. Unless by 'all-knowing' you mean only "partially-knowing?" "
Haven't you ever met anyone who made mistakes on purpose?
Some folks make mitakes on purpose just to see if anyone is paying attention!
And sometimes people will make mistake after mistake and not even notice it or realize it!
So if G-d is the only Perfect Being, it stands to reason that even His mistakes are Perfect.
What do you mean by a perfect mistake? It seems like you are discarding the meaning of terms. Perfect means without error. A perfect mistake is an oxymoron because a mistake is an error. What am I missing here?
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The Talmud says that G-d prays to Himself.
Really not all that strange a concept, considering how many humans worship themself!
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Btw Dan Ben Noah, in reference to what you said earlier that "(which apparently most rabbis think it is actual history)," I read that there is a minority opinion among the Talmudic sages which says that Iyov was not a real person but a literary creation. So while most might consider him historical, that is still pretty significant. And that gives a lot of credence to the idea that it's a fable. But even if Iyov was real / historical it can still be that the book of Job is a parable and metaphorical. Sometimes history is also contained in something metaphorical and in parable.
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The Talmud says that G-d prays to Himself.
You take that statement literally?
Also, please cite it.
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Re: "One of the advantages of being G-d is that he doesn't need to learn things the hard way via trial and error like we human have to. "
How do you know?
A lot of people think the first couple of schwartzes were accidentally left in the oven too long, and the rest were all burned black on purpose in hopes that no one would notice the mistake!
:-X
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Re: "One of the advantages of being G-d is that he doesn't need to learn things the hard way via trial and error like we human have to. "
How do you know?
A lot of people think the first couple of schwartzes were accidentally left in the oven too long, and the rest were all burned black on purpose in hopes that no one would notice the mistake!
:-X
Allot of people are buffoons. Besides, blacks have SUPERIOR skin than white people. So if there was a mistake, it must be the pale white skin.
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Re: "if there was a mistake, it must be the pale white skin. "
It's not a mistake if you're the CEO of Coppertone Sunscreen Lotion! :::D
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The Talmud says that G-d prays to Himself.
You take that statement literally?
Also, please cite it.
KWRBT,
I believe Massuh is referring to the concept from Parasha Ki Tisa when Moshe davens to save the Am Yisroel after the sin of the Golden Calf. It is said that Hashem was wearing Tefillin and Moshe saw the back of Hashem, he saw the knot of the tefillin..
Here is a reference to this story from Torah.org:
http://www.torah.org/learning/Parasha-insights/5761/kisisa.html
Ki Tisa- 5761
By Rabbi Yisroel Ciner
This week we read the Parasha of Ki Tisa. After receiving the Torah, Bnei Yisroel {the Children of Israel}, thinking that Moshe had died, sought to fill that void by creating an intermediary between them and Hashem. This led to the Chait Ha'egel {the sin of the golden calf} and near disaster for Bnei Yisroel until Moshe succeeded in interceding on their behalf.
A fascinating result of Moshe's t'filos {prayers} was the bringing about of an 'ais ratzon'--a time where Hashem seemed to be very willing to grant Moshe's wishes. Moshe sensed this willingness on the part of Hashem and petitioned Him on behalf of Bnei Yisroel.
"And now, if I (Moshe) have found favor in your (Hashem's) eyes, please, make known to me your ways. [33:13]"
The Talmud [Brachos 7A] explains that Moshe wanted to understand why some of the righteous prosper while others suffer and why some of the wicked prosper while others suffer. Moshe wanted to fathom the seeming injustices in the world as we perceive it.
"And He (Hashem) said: You are not able to see my face, for no man can see my face and (continue to) live... and you will see the back of me. [33:20,23]"
That explains it! No more problems in understanding the world’s seeming injustices!
And just in case that doesn't do a thorough enough job of leaving us in the dark, Rashi quotes the Talmud [Brachos 7A] that teaches that Hashem showed Moshe the knot of His tefillin {phylacteries}.
Now it's perfectly clear! You see it wasn't actually Hashem’s back but rather it was the knot of His tefillin! Thanks!
The Talmud [Brachos 6A] shows the source from which we derive that Hashem wears tefillin and reveals that His parchments contain the verse: "Who is like your people, Israel, a unique nation on the earth. [Divrei Hayamim I 17]"
How are we to understand the idea of Hashem wearing tefillin, what is the significance of the verse written in those tefillin and how does this relate to Moshe’s difficulty in understanding Divine Providence?
Rav Aryeh Kaplan z"l explains in the following way. Being that Hashem has no body, shape or form, any physical terms used in relation to Hashem come to express His relationship to the world. His 'eyes' become His awareness; His 'arm' is understood to convey His power and involvement.
What do His tefillin express?
The tefillin, worn on top of the head, hover over the site of wisdom. They are called the crown. They represent that which is above and even higher than wisdom. They represent purpose and will--that which focuses and guides wisdom in order to bring out its innate potential.
The Divine wisdom that manifested itself in the creation is astounding. Hashem's tefillin represent His purpose and will in the creation. As such, we understand that the knowledge that Hashem wears tefillin without knowing what is written on His 'parchments,' would still leave us very much in the dark.
The Talmud relates that Hashem's tefillin contain a verse about the uniqueness of Yisroel. The tefillin thereby show that Hashem's purpose and will in creation is intimately bound to and manifested by Yisroel.
As we understand, Hashem created the world as a vehicle upon which He could bestow His good. The greatest good that He could bestow is He Himself, as He is the epitome of good. Those who would be the recipients of this good would have to freely choose to make this connection to Hashem and instructions would have to be available as a means through which they could partake of the G-dly. Lastly, a people would have to accept these guidelines, to structure their entire lives according to these instructions, and thereby ultimately receive Hashem's goodness.
Many nations roamed the earth but it was a few select individuals who forged this connection to Hashem. It was only Yaakov, the third generation, who attained the name Yisroel. His descendants as a whole only attained that stature and name upon the exodus from Mitzrayim {Egypt}. By virtue of their free will, they became Yisroel, the Torah {instructions} of life were entrusted to them and the crown/purpose of creation would be fulfilled through them.
All events that happen in this world are all focused on reaching that ultimate goal of connection to Hashem and partaking of His G-dliness. The straps that emanate from the tefillin emanate to the right and the left. They represent the two opposing forces of Hashem's Providence--chessed {kindness} and gevurah {strength}. These forces join together and form the structure of Hashem's justice. This is represented by the knot of the tefillin--the point where the two join together. The straps then hang down, showing the involvement of this Divine intervention and supervision all the way down through history.
In the intertwining of a knot, some straps are revealed and others are covered. Moshe was troubled by the seeming injustice in the world. Hashem showed him that nothing is haphazard. Nothing happens by chance. Every event is the practical application of the Divine will and purpose. As such, every event is justice as it is comprised of the union of chessed and gevurah.
Hashem showed him the knot of his tefillin.
Good Shabbos,
Yisroel Ciner
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The Talmud says that G-d prays to Himself.
You take that statement literally?
Also, please cite it.
KWRBT,
I believe Massuh is referring to the concept from Parasha Ki Tisa when Moshe davens to save the Am Yisroel after the sin of the Golden Calf. It is said that Hashem was wearing Tefillin and Moshe saw the back of Hashem, he saw the knot of the tefillin..
Here is a reference to this story from Torah.org:
http://www.torah.org/learning/Parasha-insights/5761/kisisa.html
Ki Tisa- 5761
By Rabbi Yisroel Ciner
This week we read the Parasha of Ki Tisa. After receiving the Torah, Bnei Yisroel {the Children of Israel}, thinking that Moshe had died, sought to fill that void by creating an intermediary between them and Hashem. This led to the Chait Ha'egel {the sin of the golden calf} and near disaster for Bnei Yisroel until Moshe succeeded in interceding on their behalf.
A fascinating result of Moshe's t'filos {prayers} was the bringing about of an 'ais ratzon'--a time where Hashem seemed to be very willing to grant Moshe's wishes. Moshe sensed this willingness on the part of Hashem and petitioned Him on behalf of Bnei Yisroel.
"And now, if I (Moshe) have found favor in your (Hashem's) eyes, please, make known to me your ways. [33:13]"
The Talmud [Brachos 7A] explains that Moshe wanted to understand why some of the righteous prosper while others suffer and why some of the wicked prosper while others suffer. Moshe wanted to fathom the seeming injustices in the world as we perceive it.
"And He (Hashem) said: You are not able to see my face, for no man can see my face and (continue to) live... and you will see the back of me. [33:20,23]"
That explains it! No more problems in understanding the world’s seeming injustices!
And just in case that doesn't do a thorough enough job of leaving us in the dark, Rashi quotes the Talmud [Brachos 7A] that teaches that Hashem showed Moshe the knot of His tefillin {phylacteries}.
Now it's perfectly clear! You see it wasn't actually Hashem’s back but rather it was the knot of His tefillin! Thanks!
The Talmud [Brachos 6A] shows the source from which we derive that Hashem wears tefillin and reveals that His parchments contain the verse: "Who is like your people, Israel, a unique nation on the earth. [Divrei Hayamim I 17]"
How are we to understand the idea of Hashem wearing tefillin, what is the significance of the verse written in those tefillin and how does this relate to Moshe’s difficulty in understanding Divine Providence?
Rav Aryeh Kaplan z"l explains in the following way. Being that Hashem has no body, shape or form, any physical terms used in relation to Hashem come to express His relationship to the world. His 'eyes' become His awareness; His 'arm' is understood to convey His power and involvement.
What do His tefillin express?
The tefillin, worn on top of the head, hover over the site of wisdom. They are called the crown. They represent that which is above and even higher than wisdom. They represent purpose and will--that which focuses and guides wisdom in order to bring out its innate potential.
The Divine wisdom that manifested itself in the creation is astounding. Hashem's tefillin represent His purpose and will in the creation. As such, we understand that the knowledge that Hashem wears tefillin without knowing what is written on His 'parchments,' would still leave us very much in the dark.
The Talmud relates that Hashem's tefillin contain a verse about the uniqueness of Yisroel. The tefillin thereby show that Hashem's purpose and will in creation is intimately bound to and manifested by Yisroel.
As we understand, Hashem created the world as a vehicle upon which He could bestow His good. The greatest good that He could bestow is He Himself, as He is the epitome of good. Those who would be the recipients of this good would have to freely choose to make this connection to Hashem and instructions would have to be available as a means through which they could partake of the G-dly. Lastly, a people would have to accept these guidelines, to structure their entire lives according to these instructions, and thereby ultimately receive Hashem's goodness.
Many nations roamed the earth but it was a few select individuals who forged this connection to Hashem. It was only Yaakov, the third generation, who attained the name Yisroel. His descendants as a whole only attained that stature and name upon the exodus from Mitzrayim {Egypt}. By virtue of their free will, they became Yisroel, the Torah {instructions} of life were entrusted to them and the crown/purpose of creation would be fulfilled through them.
All events that happen in this world are all focused on reaching that ultimate goal of connection to Hashem and partaking of His G-dliness. The straps that emanate from the tefillin emanate to the right and the left. They represent the two opposing forces of Hashem's Providence--chessed {kindness} and gevurah {strength}. These forces join together and form the structure of Hashem's justice. This is represented by the knot of the tefillin--the point where the two join together. The straps then hang down, showing the involvement of this Divine intervention and supervision all the way down through history.
In the intertwining of a knot, some straps are revealed and others are covered. Moshe was troubled by the seeming injustice in the world. Hashem showed him that nothing is haphazard. Nothing happens by chance. Every event is the practical application of the Divine will and purpose. As such, every event is justice as it is comprised of the union of chessed and gevurah.
Hashem showed him the knot of his tefillin.
Good Shabbos,
Yisroel Ciner
That's kind of funny because I'm familiar with that exchange as cited by the Talmud, yet I don't see any kind of take-home message being "God prays to himself." DO YOU? I certainly never took that away from discussions rabbis have given on that Talmudic passage. This is why I asked him to cite the origin of his comment. I would be shocked if that's what he refers to... If it is, there's not much left to talk about because that seems to me a gross confusion.
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Yes, it seems to be a misunderstanding on Massuhs part. I do not think that Hashem davens to himself.. But he does Daven..
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Re: "it seems to be a misunderstanding on Massuhs part "
No it's not.
It's merely a lack of reading on the part of others who mistakenly believe they are Torah Masters.
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Re: "it seems to be a misunderstanding on Massuhs part "
No it's not.
It's merely a lack of reading on the part of others who mistakenly believe they are Torah Masters.
Then please bring us the Torah which states that Hashem davens to himself... What I brought is the closest thing to what you are saying...
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Re: "This is why I asked him to cite the origin of his comment. "
NO.
YOU find it on your own.
You won't because you are convinced that you need no further study or reading to know everything.
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It's in the Talmud.
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It's in the Talmud.
Please tell me what volume of the many volumes of Talmud you are referring to. To just say 'The Talmud' is useless...
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Re: "This is why I asked him to cite the origin of his comment. "
NO.
YOU find it on your own.
You won't because you are convinced that you need no further study or reading to know everything.
If that was true, I wouldn't have asked you for the source.
Please point me to the source of your comment that Hashem prays to himself. My tangent with Muman really has nothing to do with you so stop getting your panties in a bunch.
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Re: "To just say 'The Talmud' is useless... "
True.
I'll have to go look in The Talmud and I'll let you know later.
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In Genesis, there is some type evil serpent thing that talks and is deceitful. Job talks about some type accuser. If you need to look to see if there is a demon, look no further than the white House, you will find the most evil demon alive.
Genesis Chapter 3 בְּרֵאשִׁית
א וְהַנָּחָשׁ, הָיָה עָרוּם, מִכֹּל חַיַּת הַשָּׂדֶה, אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים; וַיֹּאמֶר, אֶל-הָאִשָּׁה, אַף כִּי-אָמַר אֱלֹהִים, לֹא תֹאכְלוּ מִכֹּל עֵץ הַגָּן. 1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman: 'Yea, hath God said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?'
ב וַתֹּאמֶר הָאִשָּׁה, אֶל-הַנָּחָשׁ: מִפְּרִי עֵץ-הַגָּן, נֹאכֵל. 2 And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
ג וּמִפְּרִי הָעֵץ, אֲשֶׁר בְּתוֹךְ-הַגָּן--אָמַר אֱלֹהִים לֹא תֹאכְלוּ מִמֶּנּוּ, וְלֹא תִגְּעוּ בּוֹ: פֶּן-תְּמֻתוּן. 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'
ד וַיֹּאמֶר הַנָּחָשׁ, אֶל-הָאִשָּׁה: לֹא-מוֹת, תְּמֻתוּן. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman: 'Ye shall not surely die;
ה כִּי, יֹדֵעַ אֱלֹהִים, כִּי בְּיוֹם אֲכָלְכֶם מִמֶּנּוּ, וְנִפְקְחוּ עֵינֵיכֶם; וִהְיִיתֶם, כֵּאלֹהִים, יֹדְעֵי, טוֹב וָרָע. 5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.'
ו וַתֵּרֶא הָאִשָּׁה כִּי טוֹב הָעֵץ לְמַאֲכָל וְכִי תַאֲוָה-הוּא לָעֵינַיִם, וְנֶחְמָד הָעֵץ לְהַשְׂכִּיל, וַתִּקַּח מִפִּרְיוֹ, וַתֹּאכַל; וַתִּתֵּן גַּם-לְאִישָׁהּ עִמָּהּ, וַיֹּאכַל. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.
ז וַתִּפָּקַחְנָה, עֵינֵי שְׁנֵיהֶם, וַיֵּדְעוּ, כִּי עֵירֻמִּם הֵם; וַיִּתְפְּרוּ עֲלֵה תְאֵנָה, וַיַּעֲשׂוּ לָהֶם חֲגֹרֹת. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves girdles.
ח וַיִּשְׁמְעוּ אֶת-קוֹל יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, מִתְהַלֵּךְ בַּגָּן--לְרוּחַ הַיּוֹם; וַיִּתְחַבֵּא הָאָדָם וְאִשְׁתּוֹ, מִפְּנֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, בְּתוֹךְ, עֵץ הַגָּן. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden toward the cool of the day; and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
ט וַיִּקְרָא יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, אֶל-הָאָדָם; וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ, אַיֶּכָּה. 9 And the LORD God called unto the man, and said unto him: 'Where art thou?'
י וַיֹּאמֶר, אֶת-קֹלְךָ שָׁמַעְתִּי בַּגָּן; וָאִירָא כִּי-עֵירֹם אָנֹכִי, וָאֵחָבֵא. 10 And he said: 'I heard Thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.'
יא וַיֹּאמֶר--מִי הִגִּיד לְךָ, כִּי עֵירֹם אָתָּה; הֲמִן-הָעֵץ, אֲשֶׁר צִוִּיתִיךָ לְבִלְתִּי אֲכָל-מִמֶּנּוּ--אָכָלְתָּ. 11 And He said: 'Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?'
יב וַיֹּאמֶר, הָאָדָם: הָאִשָּׁה אֲשֶׁר נָתַתָּה עִמָּדִי, הִוא נָתְנָה-לִּי מִן-הָעֵץ וָאֹכֵל. 12 And the man said: 'The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.'
יג וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים לָאִשָּׁה, מַה-זֹּאת עָשִׂית; וַתֹּאמֶר, הָאִשָּׁה, הַנָּחָשׁ הִשִּׁיאַנִי, וָאֹכֵל. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman: 'What is this thou hast done?' And the woman said: 'The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.'
יד וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים אֶל-הַנָּחָשׁ, כִּי עָשִׂיתָ זֹּאת, אָרוּר אַתָּה מִכָּל-הַבְּהֵמָה, וּמִכֹּל חַיַּת הַשָּׂדֶה; עַל-גְּחֹנְךָ תֵלֵךְ, וְעָפָר תֹּאכַל כָּל-יְמֵי חַיֶּיךָ. 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent: 'Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
טו וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ: הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב. {ס} 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.' {S}
טז אֶל-הָאִשָּׁה אָמַר, הַרְבָּה אַרְבֶּה עִצְּבוֹנֵךְ וְהֵרֹנֵךְ--בְּעֶצֶב, תֵּלְדִי בָנִים; וְאֶל-אִישֵׁךְ, תְּשׁוּקָתֵךְ, וְהוּא, יִמְשָׁל-בָּךְ. {ס} 16 Unto the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.' {S}
יז וּלְאָדָם אָמַר, כִּי-שָׁמַעְתָּ לְקוֹל אִשְׁתֶּךָ, וַתֹּאכַל מִן-הָעֵץ, אֲשֶׁר צִוִּיתִיךָ לֵאמֹר לֹא תֹאכַל מִמֶּנּוּ--אֲרוּרָה הָאֲדָמָה, בַּעֲבוּרֶךָ, בְּעִצָּבוֹן תֹּאכְלֶנָּה, כֹּל יְמֵי חַיֶּיךָ. 17 And unto Adam He said: 'Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying: Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
יח וְקוֹץ וְדַרְדַּר, תַּצְמִיחַ לָךְ; וְאָכַלְתָּ, אֶת-עֵשֶׂב הַשָּׂדֶה. 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field.
יט בְּזֵעַת אַפֶּיךָ, תֹּאכַל לֶחֶם, עַד שׁוּבְךָ אֶל-הָאֲדָמָה, כִּי מִמֶּנָּה לֻקָּחְתָּ: כִּי-עָפָר אַתָּה, וְאֶל-עָפָר תָּשׁוּב. 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.'
כ וַיִּקְרָא הָאָדָם שֵׁם אִשְׁתּוֹ, חַוָּה: כִּי הִוא הָיְתָה, אֵם כָּל-חָי. 20 And the man called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
כא וַיַּעַשׂ יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים לְאָדָם וּלְאִשְׁתּוֹ, כָּתְנוֹת עוֹר--וַיַּלְבִּשֵׁם. {פ} 21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them. {P}
כב וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, הֵן הָאָדָם הָיָה כְּאַחַד מִמֶּנּוּ, לָדַעַת, טוֹב וָרָע; וְעַתָּה פֶּן-יִשְׁלַח יָדוֹ, וְלָקַח גַּם מֵעֵץ הַחַיִּים, וְאָכַל, וָחַי לְעֹלָם. 22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'
כג וַיְשַׁלְּחֵהוּ יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, מִגַּן-עֵדֶן--לַעֲבֹד, אֶת-הָאֲדָמָה, אֲשֶׁר לֻקַּח, מִשָּׁם. 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
כד וַיְגָרֶשׁ, אֶת-הָאָדָם; וַיַּשְׁכֵּן מִקֶּדֶם לְגַן-עֵדֶן אֶת-הַכְּרֻבִים, וְאֵת לַהַט הַחֶרֶב הַמִּתְהַפֶּכֶת, לִשְׁמֹר, אֶת-דֶּרֶךְ עֵץ הַחַיִּים. {ס} 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way to the tree of life. {S}
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If you need to look to see if there is a demon, look no further than the white House, you will find the most evil demon alive.
lol
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Do you understand what the HaSatan in the garden was doing? It was not the devil, it was acting as the evil inclination yet it was external from Chava. If you look at how the serpent deceived Chava it is because she incorrectly states that Hashem forbid her and Adam to touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil when all which was commanded was not to eat of the tree. The yetzer hara, which was external before the sin, used her own weakness against her. This is one of the important lessons of Beresheit, and how we can conquer our own yetzer haras.
It is also important to realize that if only Adam had done teshuva instead of blaming Chava for eating from the tree, then things could have been different.
HaSatan only does his job, which he was created to do from the day all the Melochim were created.
http://www.torah.org/learning/kolhakollel/5763/vayishlach.html?print=1
Kol Hakollel
Vayishlach
Giving Satan What He Really Wants
By Rabbi Pinchas Avruch
At the conclusion of the struggle between Yaakov (Jacob) and a strange man - which the Medrash clarifies was Satan himself, functioning as the Guardian Angel of Yaakov's brother Esav (Esau) - the Angel of Evil begs Yaakov to allow him to depart. "Then [the angel] said, 'Let me go, for dawn has broken.'" (Beraishis/ Genesis 32:27). The Talmud (Tractate Chulin 91b) explains that Yaakov initially asked him if he was a thief or a gambler, since he feared the break of dawn. The stranger replied, "I am an angel, and from the moment of my creation I have never had the opportunity to sing Shira (song of Divine praise) until now!" Why did this angel, just defeated and disgraced, and never before allowed to sing Shira, have to sing right now?
Michtav Me'Eliyahu (collected writings and discourses of Rabbi Eliyahu Dessler (1891-1954) of London and B'nai Brak, one of the outstanding personalities and thinkers of the Mussar movement) elucidates that, while every creation has the potential to sing Shira, indeed, it is only sung when that creation reaches its loftiest spiritual levels, when it achieves perfection in its purpose. The Children of Israel, who witnessed the splitting of the Red Sea (see Shemos/Exodus 15), had the most profound, intimate appreciation of G-d's presence in the Universe - the Medrash Yalkut Shimoni explains that a maidservant at the Sea beheld visions of the Divine Glory that the great prophet Yechezkiel/Ezekiel was never able to envision - therefore, at the conclusion of this fantastic miracle they sang Shira, the Song of the Sea. Similarly, the Angel of Esav, at the moment he was defeated by Yaakov in the ultimate external expression of man's internal fortitude to quash his inclination for evil, fulfilled his Divine mission of enabling and facilitating the spiritual growth and elevation of the G-d fearing Jew. His G-d given charge now accomplished, he was now - as never before - suited to sing Shira.
Thus, the Yetzer Hara (the evil inclination: Satan's personal tampering with one's thoughts creating each individual's temptation to sin and do wrong) finds success in failure and failure in success. As a servant of the King of Kings, he serves with gusto, always trying to pull the Jew away from G-d. But his success in our failure ultimately serves to detract from G-d's glory, a phenomenon that pains him immensely. As relentless as he is to gain in his objective of stunting our spiritual growth, he wishes he would lose the battle. His true Divine objective is to challenge us to fail so that we may overcome him and grow from that challenge. Ultimately, when he loses, he wins.
And just how does Satan thrive with such a backward assignment? Because it is only through him that creation has purpose. Without him there is no "choice" in the world, no reason to want to do anything but fulfill G-d's will. But such service would be empty and devoid of meaning. G-d's essential expression of kindness in creation is His allowance for us to develop and grow in our "G-d consciousness", to actively foster a relationship with Him through fulfillment of the mitzvos (Divine commands) of His Torah while resisting the tug of the Yetzer Hara to do otherwise.
Intellectually, we know the Yetzer Hara would love nothing more than to fail. The least we can do is work to accommodate him.
Have a Good Shabbos!
http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/leff/archives/vayish.htm
Struggling With Angels
Jacob was left alone and a man wrestled with him until the break of dawn (Bereishis 32 24).
A society in which technology enables us to deal effortlessly with many of life's difficulties raises the issue of the value of challenges and struggles. The Torah's view on this question lies at the center of the account of the struggle between Yaakov and the angel.
According to one Midrash (Bereishis Rabbah 77:3) the angel who confronted Yaakov was Esav's archangel, Satan himself. He came to obstruct and deter Yaakov on his return to Eretz Yisrael. Another Midrash however, says that the angel was Michael, the patron of Yaakov and the Jewish people. To make matters even more difficult, Rashbam writes that Yaakov sought to run away from Esav, and Michael came to restrain him by demonstrating to Yaakov that Hashem's promise to him would be fulfilled.
To resolve these seeming contradictions we must understand the Torah's view of man's struggle. Mesilas Yesharim describes life as one of struggle. Hashem put the neshamah (soul) into a physical body in order for it to earn Olam Haba through its efforts to overcome the yetzer hara. It is this struggle which elevates a person and enables him to reach the ultimate goal of achieving the World to Come.
Upon his return to Eretz Yisrael, Yaakov wanted to sit in peace after all the trials of his life: flight from his brother Esav, life in the house of Lavan, the tragedy with Dinah and the death of Rachel. He came back to Eretz Yisrael ready to begin a life of tranquillity. Immediately, Yosef was taken away. Hashem responded, says the Midrash, by saying "Is that which is prepared for tzaddikim in the next world not enough? Do they also want to have tranquillity in this world?"
Is it, then, impossible for a tzaddik to have good in both worlds? Do Chazal not tell us that not everyone merits two tables - this world and the next-thereby implying that some do merit both?
Like all rhetorical questions, that of Hashem in the Midrash is really a statement of fact. Man was put into this world to grow, not to remain stationary. Through that growth man acquires an ever greater portion in the World to Come. Respite from outside tensions is not an invitation to take it easy but an opportunity to exert oneself more in attaining perfection. The problem with Yaakov's desire for tranquillity was in the fact that he sought to sit, to remain at rest, and not to utilize his respite to be able to redouble his efforts.
Hashem responded, "It is not enough what is already prepared for the tzaddik in Olam Haba. It is never enough. There is always potential for more. And yet he wants to remain at rest?" Hashem will not permit that, for it is detrimental for the tzaddik. And therefore Yaakov was presented with a new challenge-the sale of Yosef- to prevent him from remaining static.
The struggle between Yaakov and the angel has far reaching significance for us today. The Talmud says that the dust kicked up by Yaakov and the angel reached up to the Throne of Glory, signifying the effect of that struggle on all future Jewish history. (The Throne of Glory represents God's Providence. the guiding force in history.)
During the struggle the angel took on different disguises. According to one opinion, he came as a talmid chacham. Another opinion says that he came as a robber. Sometimes a person wants to elevate himself, but something stands in his way. That is the Satan- the robber - who seeks to deny the person what he wants. That denial is to challenge him and cause him to appreciate all the more his accomplishments. On the other hand, there is the angel who tries to pull a person up when he wants to stay put. That is Michael, the talmid chacham. Yaakov wanted to avoid problems; Michael forced the struggle upon him in order to elevate him higher.
At the end of the night, the angel asked to be set free, but Yaakov refused. While at the beginning of the night Yaakov sought to avoid the confrontation, by night's end he realized that the struggle was essential to his very existence.
And why did the angel want to go? He wanted to sing to Hashem. His time to sing only came in the morning. Rabbi Dessler explains that when an angel fulfills its purpose, that is the song it sings. The angel, whether it be Satan or Michael, exists to give us the chance to fight and be successful, and when we are successful then the angel, too, has fulfilled its mission.
In this light we can understand why the angel did not tell Yaakov his name. Angels' names change with their function. Yaakov's struggle represents all struggles Jews have faced and will face throughout history. Each man's struggles in life are different, depending on his unique nature. What is easy for one person is difficult for another. Thus, every person has a slightly different Satan and Michael to fight with. Consequently, the angel could not give a single name.
Where does a person derive the power to carry on these struggles? The Midrash (Bereishis Rabbah 771) states: "There is none like God; yet who is like God? Jeshurun [which means Yisrael, the Patriarchl. Just as it is written of God, 'And the Lord alone shall be exalted' (Isaiah 211). So, too, of Yaakov: 'And Yaakov was left alone' (Bereishis 32 25).'
Both Hashem and Israel possess the quality of being alone. No outside power has an effect on Hashem. Nothing adds to or subtracts from His Essence. A Jew has the power to a certain degree to emulate Hashem in this respect. If a person has the inner strength of character and knows who he is, then nothing external, no problem or challenge, can deter him. He recognizes that all external obstacles are just that -external. He remains strong, for his essence remains untouched. He knows that even if he fails it is only in unessential matters. He may be slowed down but he perseveres; he is not overwhelmed.
And what is the inner strength of a Jew-Torah. Yaakov is the personification of Torah. He represents the strength of character that Torah builds.
Yaakov was wounded in the thigh. Midrash Tanchuma relates that the angel wanted to know how Yaakov could keep up the fight for so long, and concluded that he must be an angel himself. The difference between angels and humans is that angels do not have a hip joint. They cannot sit. An angel is always ready for action. Consequently, he never becomes depressed or overwhelmed. A human does not have this ability. He can be overwhelmed by a situation, causing him to give up and sit down in inactivity.
The angel struck Yaakov in the hip joint and saw that he was a man. Yaakov was wounded; he had failed a little; but he did not give up and become depressed. Because he knew who he and what he was, he could overcome; it was only a minor setback and he continued the struggle. A tzaddik can fall seven times and still continue to get up. He deals with each failure and remains in control.
The Torah gives us a constant reminder of Yaakov's struggle the prohibition on eating the aid hanasheh (the sciatic nerve). Sforno explains that we thereby show that the place where Yaakov was wounded is not important. That is how a person must deal with failure. When you fail in one area you cannot become de- pressed over it. What's the aid hanasheh-nothing important. We throw it away. Every time a person refrains from eating the aid hanasheh, he is reminded not to be overwhelmed by adversity.
Each negative prohibition in the Torah corresponds to a different day of the year. The aid hanasheh corresponds to Tishah B'Av, a day of destruction. Other nations would have been devastated by the loss of their land and independence. But Klal Yisrael continues on, even in galus. 'God thrust us into the darkness'-this refers to the Babylonian Talmud" (Sanhedrin 24a). Out of the darkness of galus, the Chafetz Chaim explains, comes the incentive to achieve, to produce. It is the darkness that is the motivating force in the continuation and enhancement of the Oral Torah - Talmud Bavli. Klal Yisrael was wounded when we had to leave Eretz Yisrael, but we continued to function and gain strength through the struggle.
Chazal say that when the First Temple was destroyed, the cherubim embraced each other. One represented God and the other Yisrael. Hashem shook us to our very foundation by destroying the Beis Hamikdash and forcing us to limp away into galus, but at the same time He guaranteed that we retain the ability to return.
Failure itself is the incentive to rise and continue. It is challenges and struggles that give a person the chance to turn his life around. Every negative thing in life can be used in a positive way. Rabbi Dessler points out that the word, evil, inverted is, awaken. Evil is there for the purpose of awakening a person. Setbacks and obstacles in a person's life are not there to immobilize him, but to offer a challenge, something to fight against in order to strengthen himself and earn his ultimate reward.
Since Yaakov can now distinguish between the peripheral and the essential, he is no longer Yaakov but Yisrael. The name Yisrael signifies his worthiness to receive the blessing. The name Yisrael represents struggle with man and angel. Because he struggled he came face to face with Hashem. The struggle is the essence of the name Yisrael.
That, too, is the greatness of Klal Yisrael. We deserve Hashem's blessing because we have the strength of character, derived from the Torah, to be able to struggle even when we are wounded. Yaakov's name is changed but not completely. The name Yaakov still remains because the struggle goes on. At times we will be Yisrael and win; sometimes we will go back to being Yaakov. Life is full of ups and downs. But we realize that we have the potential of being Yisrael even when we are Yaakov, facing the setbacks and disappointments of life; we may be slowed down, but we will not give up.
In the end, the angel left Yaakov wounded, but he did not sit down and bemoan his fate; he limped away. Once he showed that he could persevere, then Hashem took out the sun and healed him. This is a hint to Olam Haba, when Hashem will take out the bright light hidden at Creation and with it heal the tzaddikim. There, they will reach their highest level of perfection, the culmination of all their struggles in this world with men and angels.
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Og was a fallen angel in the story of Noah
but in human flesh.
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Og was a fallen angel in the story of Noah
but in human flesh.
Where do you learn this? I have learned about Og but nobody has said anything about him being an angel. He certainly was a giant...
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Regarding the discussion of Og in relation to Noah:
http://www.pardes.org.il/online_learning/weekly-talmud/2008-08-07.php
World of Our Sages: Giants of Old
By Rabbi Levi Cooper
August 07, 2008
Giants were part of the landscape from the earliest biblical times (see Genesis 4:6). These mighty men who once struck fear in the hearts of people suffered two great defeats. Their first rout was at the hands of Chedorlaomer, during the war of the four kings against the five kings (see Genesis 14:5).
In this famous battle, Lot was taken captive - a move that would prove to be fatal for the heretofore triumphant four kings, for one person managed to escape and bring the news of Lot's capture to his uncle Abraham. Abraham quickly entered the fray to rescue his nephew. With his force, Abraham subdued the four kings, freeing Lot and regaining much property that had been plundered by them.
Who was the refugee who brought the news to Abraham and thus turned the tide of the war? The commentators noted the use of the definite article - the survivor - and sought to identify who this news courier was. Some commentators suggested that it was a refugee from the very battle in which Lot was seized. Another suggested that it was a solitary survivor from Lot's camp (Shadal, 19th century, Italy).
Our sages, however, looked further afield for the identity of this news bearer: Who was the ultimate survivor in biblical lore? During the deluge, as all life was being wiped out except for Noah and his ark, Og managed to climb onto one of the ladders on the outside of the ark. As he clung on, he swore to Noah and to his sons to be their slave forever. In exchange, Noah bored a small hole in the ark and each day he would proffer food to the giant, who thus weathered the storm (Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezer 23). Though not included in the ark, Og managed to survive the flood in this manner and for that feat he was known as the survivor (B. Nidda 61a). The survivor who brought the news to Abraham was the famous refugee, Og.
According to one opinion among the sages, Og was driven by shadowy motives: He hoped that Abraham would fall in battle and he could marry the beautiful Sarah (Devarim Rabba 1:25). Whatever his motive, Og who had survived the flood, had now survived the onslaught of the four kings.
Og's survival resolve was shown once more when the fearsome giants were vanquished a second time, this time by the Ammonites (see Deuteronomy 2:20-21).
In this context, Og's magnitude is described in terms of his cradle, which measured nine forearms long and four forearms wide - at least 4.5 meters by 2 meters, perhaps even more depending on whether Og's forearms served as the yardstick. The cradle was not made of wood but of iron so that it could hold this colossal baby's weight (Deuteronomy 3:11).
Maimonides (12th century, Cairo) sought to extrapolate from the size of the cot just how big Baby Og was: A person generally makes his bed a third longer than his height, assumed Maimonides. Thus Og must have measured six cubits in height; an average height of a person, notes Maimonides, is three cubits. Baby Og was therefore double the height of an average person. This huge cot was displayed in the capital city Rabat Bnei Ammon and served as a reminder of victory for the Ammonites who bested the giants (Ramban, 13th century, Spain-Eretz Yisrael). Og for his part moved north and settled in Bashan.
Despite Og's endurance, our sages describe the lead up to his eventual downfall. When the Jewish people reached the area of Edrei on the east bank of the Jordan River, Moses announced: "We camp here tonight, and tomorrow we conquer the city" (Devarim Rabba 1:24).
Early the following morning they set out, but the landscape had changed. Moses looked up and saw Og sitting on the wall of the city with his feet reaching the ground. Not understanding what he saw, Moses wondered: "What's going on, did they build another wall overnight?" The Almighty explained: "Moses, what you see is none other than Og." Moses was frightened, "Do not fear, Moses," reassured the Almighty, "For he will fall before you."
Og saw that the entire camp of Israel was three parasangs square: "I will uproot a mountain of such size and throw it on the entire camp and kill them all," planned the giant (B. Berachot 54b). Og found such a piece of land, picked it up and held it aloft as he planned to bury the Jewish people. The Almighty sent ants which began to bore holes in the uprooted mountain, and clumps of earth began to rain on Og's head. Og tried valiantly to brush the earth off, but his teeth grew, extending downward and locking his head in position.
Og demise was not far. Moses - himself no pipsqueak - was 10 cubits tall. He took an axe with a 10-cubit handle, and he jumped 10 cubits into the air. He reached up and with the axe 30 cubits above the ground he struck Og - in the heel! The blow to the tender "Og's heel" - as perhaps we should call it in our tradition - was sufficient and the giant came crashing down.
What is the legacy of this giant? In days of old, people would surely stare with amazement at the size of Og's cradle. This cradle, however, is no more. The Talmud rules that whoever sees the rock with which Og had planned to crush the Jewish people must recite a blessing praising G-d for miraculous salvation (B. Berachot 54a). We barely recall Og's tenacious ability to survive and the only memento of his exploits was a rock that we can no longer identify.
Alas, the giants of old who so capture our imagination are but a distant memory, alive today only in aggada. Though, perhaps, giants are not only gauged by the measurements of their cradle or the height of their heel or the size of the mountains they uproot.
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Og was a fallen angel in the story of Noah
but in human flesh.
Where do you learn this? I have learned about Og but nobody has said anything about him being an angel. He certainly was a giant...
in yeshiva its also in bereshit in noah ill ook it up..btw massa still did nit give us that talmud quote
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Re: "btw massa still did nit give us that talmud quote "
I started to post it, but then remembered that like Kabalah, it is reserved for an exclusive elite which has already fulfilled all the preliminary studies.
And "you guys" clearly don't cut the mustard! :teach:
But regarding OG, he wrote many books during his lifetime.
His family name was Mandino.
:o
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Og was a fallen angel in the story of Noah
but in human flesh.
Where do you learn this? I have learned about Og but nobody has said anything about him being an angel. He certainly was a giant...
in yeshiva its also in bereshit in noah ill ook it up..btw massa still did nit give us that talmud quote
I did not see anything in Noah {The Torah portion} concerning Og. The discussion of Og occurs in the Midrash... And the discussion I have seen say that he was a Giant, born from a flesh-and-blood mother {hence the discussion of the size of his crib, etc.}...
PS: I found a mention that Sichons father may have been an angel... http://www.globalyeshiva.com/forum/topics/og-melech-habashan?commentId=727216%3AComment%3A34009
Rashi on Genesis 14:13 Parasha Lech Lecha {This weeks portion}
13. And the fugitive came and he told Abram the Hebrew, and he was living in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, the brother of Eshkol and the brother of Aner, who were Abram's confederates.
And the fugitive came: According to its simple meaning, this was Og, who escaped from the battle, and that is what is referred to in (Deut. 3:11): “Only Og survived from the rest of the Rephaim.” And that is the meaning of “survived,” that Amraphel and his allies did not kill him when they smote the Rephaim in Ashteroth-karnaim [Midrash Tanchuma (Chukkath 25)]. The Midrash Gen. Rabbah [explains]: This is Og, who escaped from the Generation of the Flood, and this is the meaning of “from the rest of the Rephaim,” as it is said: (above 6: 4):“The Nephilim were on the earth, etc.” And he [Og] intended that Abram should be killed and he would marry Sarah (Gen. Rabbah 42:8).
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Re: "btw massa still did nit give us that talmud quote "
I started to post it, but then remembered that like Kabalah, it is reserved for an exclusive elite which has already fulfilled all the preliminary studies.
And "you guys" clearly don't cut the mustard! :teach:
But regarding OG, he wrote many books during his lifetime.
His family name was Mandino.
:o
Sigh , indeed nothing worse than an arrogant ignoramus. Or more annoying.
I know some greats site for Massa
http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/
http://www.zionistarchives.org.il/za/pMain.aspx
:::D
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Re: "Sigh , indeed nothing worse than an arrogant ignoramus. Or more annoying. "
Thanks!
I learned from the very best teachers; all right here on the JTF Forum! :dance:
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People like you Massa are worse than Hitler. You pretend to be for Kahansim, but all you care about is killing Arabs. That's not what Rabbi Kahane stood for , rather the only excuse one has to drive Arabs out is the Torah. It seems yours is some twisted Jewish pride.
Indeed you are very smart and great at twisting our religion in the name of being concerned and Im sure you fool many people as you are a good thinker , its a shame you use your tongue like snake.
The worst kind of person Is one that considers religious Jew a holier than thou person , and you are one of them Massa , I used to think like you so I know what you are thinking.
You slander your own religion and you pat yourself on the back for being so smart , meanwhile other people look at you and think "he cant even respect his own religion what does he think of us"?
Ive seen your writing, a person like you can bring many people back to Judaism
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Re: "I know some greats site for Massa
http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/
http://www.zionistarchives.org.il/za/pMain.aspx "
You're a day late and a shekel short.
I've thoroughly read both of those websites several years ago.
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Re: "I know some greats site for Massa
http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/
http://www.zionistarchives.org.il/za/pMain.aspx "
You're a day late and a shekel short.
I've thoroughly read both of those websites several years ago.
Im not surprised.
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Chai: "People like you Massa are worse than Hitler. You pretend to be for Kahansim, but all you care about is killing Arab. Thats not what Rabbi Kahane stood for , rather the only excuse one has to drive Arabs out is the Torah. It seems yours is some twisted Jewish pride.
Indeed you are very smart and great at twisting our religion in the name of being concerned and im sure you fool many people as you are a good speaker , its a shame you use your tongue as a snake.
The worst kind of person Is one that considereds a religious Jew a holier than thou person , and you are one of them Massa , I used to think like you so I know what you are thinking.
You slander your own religion and you pat yourself on the back for being so smart , meanwhile other people look at you and think "he cant respect his own religion what does he think of us"?
Ive seen your writing, a person like you can bring many people back to Judaism "
In fact, Chai, I am attempting to bring Jews back to Judaism, and I am trying to do so by asking the very difficult questions which, when unanswered, drive Jews away from Judaism.
If all there is to Judaism is answer every serious questioner with "Read this commentary right here!" or "Here is what Rashi says about it and since he knows more than anyone you must accept it!" etc. etc .... then there is very little appeal for a modern day Jew, because you've got Miley Cyrus and Lady GaGa to compete with, and I assure you that whatever else they are offering it is most definitely NOT boring.
Jews who've been living since 1948 and are raised as secular Jews are not about to revert to life as it was exactly two thousand years ago, if for no other reason than too much history and 'too much water has passed under the bridge since then'.
A Jew today can not even observe all of the mitzvot, because some of them are specifically for Temple worship!
If your vision of Judaism is something which has all the answers for life two thousand years ago but none for today, then you're not going to attract any secular Jews to Judaism.
All my life I've heard Jews whine about the endless persecutions in Europe, in Russia, under the Ottomans, and under the Caliphate, and how their holy places and books were burned and destroyed by those insistent on their culture and faith being supreme above all.
How we Jews have complained of our cruel treatment, and rightly so.
Yet some Jews on the forum are adamant that they will show the exact disrespect and barbarous treatment to every one in the world once they get to rule Eretz Yisrael? -
Some here call for demolishing holy sites of Christians and ending the religious practices of those who live peaceably with us and help us?
I'm certain I won't be able to stop you should you succeed in gaining the power to do such things, but you can rest assured that the Jew will be viewed by the entire world as the worst hypocrite in all of history, let alone the worst vandal and villain.
It will be nothing compared to the howls of protest when the Taliban, claiming their religious supremacy above all, demolished the ancient Buddhist shrines in Afghanistan considered of great historic importance to the nation of Afghanistan.
Now ... if Moshiach appears and leads the entire world in destroying all which he refuses to tolerate, that's a different thing altogether.
But until that day arrives, any semblance of an Eretz Yisrael is going to require international trade relations and tourism in order to survive.
Are people here not aware of the problems which have arisen in the State of Israel as a result of the ultra devout communities whose men consider their only role in life to be sitting and studying and davening all day in Yeshiva?
Great thing to do, but it certainly won't maintain a viable modern nation any more than the same behaviors did so in the ghettos of Eastern Europe.
And having a large ghetto in the Middle East ready for Moshiach doesn't necessarily mean that Moshiach's arrival is going to be on the same time schedule as some are anticipating.
And if that is the case, then what?
And, while on this subject, I am also trying to force all the "great, brave Kahanists" here to realize that unless they are capable of gaining power in Eretz Yisrael and keeping it, and more importantly: have the capabilities and experience ready to govern and rule over a population - accounting, medical care, agriculture, manufacturing, public sanitation, military, justice, media, communications, etc. ... then all the "rah rah rah" bluster about throwing Arabs out is just so much BS.
It's BS I applaud and agree with, but that alone won't free the Jewish Land for the Jewish People, let alone keep it safe and well governed.
As for calling me whatever names you choose, have at it!
I could care less.
You can't insult me.
You want to know why?
Because I'm already insulted just knowing that you're here on the forum! :P
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Shame on you for comparing the GREAT JEWISH TRADITION with Mily Cirus and Eminem... What is wrong with you!!!
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Maybe Massuh is 'possessed by demons' and he needs a little exorcism..
:D
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Chai: "People like you Massa are worse than Hitler. You pretend to be for Kahansim, but all you care about is killing Arab. Thats not what Rabbi Kahane stood for , rather the only excuse one has to drive Arabs out is the Torah. It seems yours is some twisted Jewish pride.
Indeed you are very smart and great at twisting our religion in the name of being concerned and im sure you fool many people as you are a good speaker , its a shame you use your tongue as a snake.
The worst kind of person Is one that considereds a religious Jew a holier than thou person , and you are one of them Massa , I used to think like you so I know what you are thinking.
You slander your own religion and you pat yourself on the back for being so smart , meanwhile other people look at you and think "he cant respect his own religion what does he think of us"?
Ive seen your writing, a person like you can bring many people back to Judaism "
In fact, Chai, I am attempting to bring Jews back to Judaism, and I am trying to do so by asking the very difficult questions which, when unanswered, drive Jews away from Judaism.
If all there is to Judaism is answer every serious questioner with "Read this commentary right here!" or "Here is what Rashi says about it and since he knows more than anyone you must accept it!" etc. etc .... then there is very little appeal for a modern day Jew, because you've got Miley Cyrus and Lady GaGa to compete with, and I assure you that whatever else they are offering it is most definitely NOT boring.
Jews who've been living since 1948 and are raised as secular Jews are not about to revert to life as it was exactly two thousand years ago, if for no other reason than too much history and 'too much water has passed under the bridge since then'.
A Jew today can not even observe all of the mitzvot, because some of them are specifically for Temple worship!
If your vision of Judaism is something which has all the answers for life two thousand years ago but none for today, then you're not going to attract any secular Jews to Judaism.
All my life I've heard Jews whine about the endless persecutions in Europe, in Russia, under the Ottomans, and under the Caliphate, and how their holy places and books were burned and destroyed by those insistent on their culture and faith being supreme above all.
How we Jews have complained of our cruel treatment, and rightly so.
Yet some Jews on the forum are adamant that they will show the exact disrespect and barbarous treatment to every one in the world once they get to rule Eretz Yisrael? -
Some here call for demolishing holy sites of Christians and ending the religious practices of those who live peaceably with us and help us?
I'm certain I won't be able to stop you should you succeed in gaining the power to do such things, but you can rest assured that the Jew will be viewed by the entire world as the worst hypocrite in all of history, let alone the worst vandal and villain.
It will be nothing compared to the howls of protest when the Taliban, claiming their religious supremacy above all, demolished the ancient Buddhist shrines in Afghanistan considered of great historic importance to the nation of Afghanistan.
Now ... if Moshiach appears and leads the entire world in destroying all which he refuses to tolerate, that's a different thing altogether.
But until that day arrives, any semblance of an Eretz Yisrael is going to require international trade relations and tourism in order to survive.
Are people here not aware of the problems which have arisen in the State of Israel as a result of the ultra devout communities whose men consider their only role in life to be sitting and studying and davening all day in Yeshiva?
Great thing to do, but it certainly won't maintain a viable modern nation any more than the same behaviors did so in the ghettos of Eastern Europe.
And having a large ghetto in the Middle East ready for Moshiach doesn't necessarily mean that Moshiach's arrival is going to be on the same time schedule as some are anticipating.
And if that is the case, then what?
And, while on this subject, I am also trying to force all the "great, brave Kahanists" here to realize that unless they are capable of gaining power in Eretz Yisrael and keeping it, and more importantly: have the capabilities and experience ready to govern and rule over a population - accounting, medical care, agriculture, manufacturing, public sanitation, military, justice, media, communications, etc. ... then all the "rah rah rah" bluster about throwing Arabs out is just so much BS.
It's BS I applaud and agree with, but that alone won't free the Jewish Land for the Jewish People, let alone keep it safe and well governed.
As for calling me whatever names you choose, have at it!
I could care less.
You can't insult me.
You want to know why?
Because I'm already insulted just knowing that you're here on the forum! :P
Depite you being offended I am here , I am glad you are because you voice an opposition and give me a chance to reply to what you say or else this would be one big robot forum. I respect you that unlike other people you actually respond and I also love your humor , but I think your thinking is very dangerous.
When you say fact, Chai, "I am attempting to bring Jews back to Judaism, and I am trying to do so by asking the very difficult questions which, when unanswered, drive Jews away from Judaism.
If all there is to Judaism is answer every serious questioner with "Read this commentary right here!" or "Here is what Rashi says about it and since he knows more than anyone you must accept it!" etc. etc"
Is not what im saying. Ive said this a million times A Jew form a secular background that even keeps a simple mitzva is like Moses to me , the last thing I want to be is a holier then thou Jew that does not consider religious Jews as Yehusim. believe it or not a lot of your comments do shake my shcemas on G-d and Judaism because I do listen to what you say.
When I said dangerous before I meant comments like this;
"Some here call for demolishing holy sites of Christians and ending the religious practices of those who live peaceably with us and help us?
I'm certain I won't be able to stop you should you succeed in gaining the power to do such things, but you can rest assured that the Jew will be viewed by the entire world as the worst hypocrite in all of history, let alone the worst vandal and villain.
It will be nothing compared to the howls of protest when the Taliban, claiming their religious supremacy above all, demolished the ancient Buddhist shrines in Afghanistan considered of great historic importance to the nation of Afghanistan.
Now ... if Moshiach appears and leads the entire world in destroying all which he refuses to tolerate, that's a different thing altogether.
But until that day arrives, any semblance of an Eretz Yisrael is going to require international trade relations and tourism in order to survive.
Are people here not aware of the problems which have arisen in the State of Israel as a result of the ultra devout communities whose men consider their only role in life to be sitting and studying and davening all day in Yeshiva"
you are thinking of those that have a corrupted form of Judaism and give religion a bad name. They dont represent me!
1. Why are you focusing on something that only has to do with the end of times when it comes to Churches in Israel? Indoors people do whatever they want even in the time of King Solomon. Let me tell you something If we get to the point that you are so against The moshaish has to come or something is fishy. I for one want to see its all true. I do have my doubts oh Judaism 0.0000000001 % and im honest with it.
2. Moses did not sit and learn Torah all day , he was a warrior , a man of love a prince and a leader as well as all the prophets after or most.
3. I may think the things you say are very wrong but Dont stop questioning I agree, But I feel you go to far with some ideas.
Religious Zionists have a different philosophy than Charadim and I think you confuse the two.
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People like you Massa are worse than Hitler.
Wtf ?
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With the Shalom acshav people at least you know what you are getting. Its deplorable to be under the guise of Khanisim when your are just a secular zionist.
If you are a secular Zionist then G-d bless you but don't pretend that you are something you are not
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With the Shalom acshav people at least you know what you are getting. Its deplorable to be under the guise of Khanisim when your are just a secular zionist.
If you are a secular Zionist then G-d bless you but don't pretend that you are something you are not
Look, I don't know what massuh "is" but suppose for a second that you're right. Pretending- sure, that's bad and all but..... Hitler?
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Well if he is a secular Zionist no , but if he parades around calling him himself a Kahanist and spewing these ideas?? are you kidding me?? YES!! lol thats so dangerous and corrupting!
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Its deplorable to be under the guise of Khanisim when your are just a secular zionist.
If you are a secular Zionist then G-d bless you but don't pretend that you are something you are not
I don't think the Rav would consider non-observant Jews that endorsed his political agenda to be 'deplorable' nor do I believe he would have rejected their support because they're 'just' secular zionists.
He might not have considered them Kahanists in the purest sense, but I don't think he would have rejected them or dismissed them as 'pretenders'.
No, I think he would have welcomed their support and hoped that one day they would more closely conform to all aspects of Kahanism.
He was wise enough and practical enough to understand that Israeli society could not and would not be transformed overnight, and that a proper addressing of Israel's most dire problems through Kahanist action would require the endorsement of it's Jewish citizenry, observant and secular alike.
But you're entitled to your own opinion and definition of what exactly constitutes being a Kahanist.
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Its deplorable to be under the guise of Khanisim when your are just a secular zionist.
If you are a secular Zionist then G-d bless you but don't pretend that you are something you are not
I don't think the Rav would consider non-observant Jews that endorsed his political agenda to be 'deplorable' nor do I believe he would have rejected their support because they're 'just' secular zionists.
He might not have considered them Kahanists in the purest sense, but I don't think he would have rejected them or dismissed them as 'pretenders'.
No, I think he would have welcomed their support and hoped that one day they would more closely conform to all aspects of Kahanism.
He was wise enough and practical enough to understand that Israeli society could not and would not be transformed overnight, and that a proper addressing of Israel's most dire problems through Kahanist action would require the endorsement of it's Jewish citizenry, observant and secular alike.
But you're entitled to your own opinion and definition of what exactly constitutes being a Kahanist.
+1
I agree with this, but Massa is way past this. He crosses that line.
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OK people. What's going on here?
I haven't had a chance to go through this entire thread since I've been feeling sick as a dog. (Also, it's 3:30 a.m., and I can't sleep.)
Anyway, Massuh and Chai you guys are both good members. So please just stop with the name calling.
I'll write more later.
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בס''ד
Why are people here engaging in personal insults once again? There is no reason and no excuse for these personal insults. Please make your points without personally attacking the individual that you disagree with.