JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: muman613 on October 19, 2010, 10:50:22 PM
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The famous Tamar Yonah of Arutz Sheva fame has now officially come out in support of the theory that some American Indian tribes may be of Jewish descent. I have heard this theory from a Rabbi whom I listen to and have seen some JTF members scoff at it. I do not know if this is true but it may be so... At least now Tamar Yonah has given this theory some thought.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/3#4409
King Solomon vs. Christopher Columbus
Cheshvan 12, 5771, 20 October 10 06:46
by from "The Tamar Yonah Show" - Tamar Yonah
(Israelnationalnews.com) Did King Solomon Discover America Way Before Columbus?
Could it be that Jews were in the 'New World' long before the European settlers?
Historians and Biblical scholars say that Jews were indeed in the 'Americas' in Biblical times.
Biblical scripture records that King Solomon had a sophisticated navy which voyaged the world in exploration, looking for iron, gold and other materials to build Jerusalem and the Holy Temple.
1Kings 9:26-28 "And king Solomon made a navy of ships in Ezion-geber, which is beside Eloth, on the shore of the Red Sea, in the land of Edom. 27 And Hiram sent in the navy his servants, shipmen that had knowledge of the sea, with the servants of Solomon. 28 And they came to Ophir, and fetched from thence gold, four hundred and twenty talents, and brought it to king Solomon."
These naval fleets of King Solomon embarked on voyages that sometimes took 3 years before they returned to Israel, bringing back riches and exotic plants and wildlife.
1 Kings: 10:22 "For the king had at sea a navy of Tarshish with the navy of Hiram; once every three years came the navy of Tarshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks."
(http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/blogs/20101019115047.jpg)
Many ports, settlements and colonies were established in places all over the Mediterranean, North Africa, as well as Europe -and the Americas! Ancient Hebrew inscriptions of the Ten Commandments on the Los Lunas rock, and coins from ancient Israel that were found in the Ohio river basin lead some experts to believe that the first settlers to America were not the Pilgrims, but the Jews and Phoenicians. The Ohio river was used as a trade line within the continent, which could explain the coins from the time of Bar Kochba, found there.
Knowing this well traveled route to the 'new world', did some of the 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom escape on ships to these distant lands to escape the Assyrian onslaught and subsequent exile? Did other Jews fleeing the Roman Empire escape to the New World as well? Are ancient Jewish people the ancestors of some native American tribes like the Cherokee?
"The story has been kept alive among our Cherokee people that the Sicarii who escaped from Masada, are some of our ancestors who managed to cross the water to this land, and later became known as Cherokees."
There are many similarities to Judaism in some Native American tribes, specifically the Cherokee nation. The Cherokees were monotheistic, believing in one G-d, as opposed to other Indian tribes who believed in several gods/spirits. Some of the words in the Cherokee's language are similar to Hebrew words of the same meaning, and the name of their G-d was similar to the Hebrew name of G-d. The Cherokee Indians also celebrated their holidays akin to some Jewish holidays. They also had one day a week of rest from work, and observed fasts. They reportedly practiced circumcision, had a city of refuge for man-slayers, and they didn't eat the meat of the hollow of the thigh of an animal. In addition, their appearance also hints of a possible Jewish ancestry; their 2 braids at the side of their head resembling long side-locks (payot), the fringes on their clothes resembling TzitTzit (the 'ritual fringes' a Jewish man wears on his 4 cornered garment), and some Cherokees clearly had semitic facial features.
Hebrew inscriptions on Los Lunas rock, the Bat Creek stone, ancient Jewish coins found in Ohio along the river basin, the Cherokee Indians, ....all point to some type of Jewish presence and influence, and that needs to be researched more.
Listen to this re-broadcast from 2007, as I interview author and historian, Steve Collins. Hear about the fascinating historical facts that few know, and explore the possibility that Jews arrived and settled in the New World, long before Columbus discovered America.
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There might be something to the Cherokee thing, but to claim like some nutty people do, that all Native Americans were Jews, is insane. Native Americans likely came over on a land bridge from Siberia. It is not out of the realm of possibility though that a small group of Jews intermixed with them later in history, given the archaeological findings and the naval prowess of the once Jewish Kingdom (and possibly could have been a small group of travelers/refugees from the 10 tribes). That said, I remember a former member posted something about one of these stones and I thought the article had said the writing was Phoenician letters rather than the Hebrew script. Do we have an explanation for that? The Bar Kochba era Jewish coins are certain an impressive and interesting find there. But the earlier finds - are they only phoenician in nature or are they Hebrew-associated too?
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I am not suggesting that these Indians would be considered Jewish today. Of course if there are Cherokees who want to convert they are welcome to. But it is interesting to think that Jewish merchants were in America before the 'discovery' by Columbus in 1492 {the same year as the Spanish Inquisition}.
Regarding your questions... I don't know at this time. I once found a web site which discussed this find but I don't have the link at this time. I will look into whether the writing found was in Phoenician or in Ivrit.
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muman613,
If Jews were first in North America then Torah and Talmud would have clearly said so.
And if Cherokees were Jews, then Torah and Talmud would have clearly said so.
Tamar Yonah is full of it.
She's turning Arutz Sheva into the Israeli Coast to Coast AM.
Next thing you know she'll be interviewing live space aliens live and claiming that there are Jewish artifacts on the moon and Mars.
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I do not think Natives Were Jews , we have no language in common or culture that I know of. Maybe a handful of Jews ventured off there If the rock is authentic but I think thats about it.
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Vikings discovered America before Columbus, but I have never heard anything about Jewish people being in North America except from crazy Mormons.
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It seems a little fishy to me but here
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/848921/posts
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Vikings discovered America before Columbus, but I have never heard anything about Jewish people being in North America except from crazy Mormons.
I've never heard of Israelites travelling to North America but to South America it's a well-known fact.
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Vikings discovered America before Columbus, but I have never heard anything about Jewish people being in North America except from crazy Mormons.
I've never heard of Israelites travelling to North America but to South America it's a well-known fact.
Seriously ?!
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Does it really matter. Whether there are a people of previous Jewish descent or never had previous Jewish geneology, can convert to Judaism if they want and if they don't decide to, they are not Jewish.
100's of 1000's of years have gone by and peoples have mixed together. Should someone 1/1000 Jewish be considered Jewish? Should a self hating Jew who converts to another religion be considered a Jew?
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muman613,
If Jews were first in North America then Torah and Talmud would have clearly said so.
And if Cherokees were Jews, then Torah and Talmud would have clearly said so.
::)
Tamar Yonah is full of it.
She's turning Arutz Sheva into the Israeli Coast to Coast AM.
Possibly but do you deny the archaeological findings? How did Bar Kochba coins get into Ohio? They magically flew there on a flying carpet? She sometimes says some wacky things or has wacky guests, but don't deny reality.
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Re: "I've never heard of Israelites travelling to North America but to South America it's a well-known fact. "
Sure!
Long before Jews founded Miami Beach, ancient Israelites were enjoying the warm breezy beaches of Rio de Janeiro!
It was here that our ancestors learned to dip their blowgun darts into the poisonous secretions of tiny frogs.
Here as well where they shrank two feet,walked around naked and barefoot, and gave each other "puddin' bowl" haircuts while squatting like monkeys.
Most of them chose to stay on, eventually becoming managers of resort hotels and dance instructors, at least they did as soon as all those things were actually invented.
Next up: Chapter IV: More proofs that ancient Israelites were first in North and S. America!
Mohicans were all students of Talmud! Ching-gak-chuk's Hebrew name
was ... (to be cont'd)
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Re: "How did Bar Kochba coins get into Ohio? They magically flew there on a flying carpet? She sometimes says some wacky things or has wacky guests, but don't deny reality. "
First off, that "stone" supposedly carved in ancient Hebrew has long been studied and determined to be of modern origin, based on the letters and styles used.
As for the Bar Kochba era coins? Either they are not genuine (this is most likely the case), or some Jewish traveling salesman put some coins in an amphora, floated it out to sea, and they eventually found their way down the Mississippi River. People have been "putting notes in a bottle" since day #1 on Earth. We frequently read of someone finding a bottle on the beach in Florida which was set adrift in England or somewhere - and sometimes the bottle and message are not found for many years.
OR......the Israelites were in Ohio. But IF such is true, wouldn't the most literate of all peoples have left many records carved in stone or written on parchment and stored away in caves?
What is a reality is the infinite number of "con-men" writing books and giving paid radio interviews to discuss their "latest findings - their PROOFS that so and so is the real history". Meanwhile serious scholars long ago studied their "proofs" and have either debunked them or left them "unexplained". I just find it hard to accept that Jews who've always read and written things just suddenly disappeared, changing into Cherokee Chiefs amputating their wives' breasts and cutting off their noses for fun. (their ARE historical records of this typical behavior of these "Israelites"!)
p.s. -- IMHO - Had Israelites founded the Ohio Valley, every woman in Jerusalem would have been sporting genuine racoon hats and buckskin mocassins!
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Re: "How did Bar Kochba coins get into Ohio? They magically flew there on a flying carpet? She sometimes says some wacky things or has wacky guests, but don't deny reality. "
First off, that "stone" supposedly carved in ancient Hebrew has long been studied and determined to be of modern origin, based on the letters and styles used.
I did not refer to the stone, I referred to coins.
That said, please give a citation to support your claim. Like I said, I know little to nothing about these stones.
As for the Bar Kochba era coins? Either they are not genuine (this is most likely the case)
On what basis do you say that? Can you point us to a site with scholarly discussion about these findings?
, or some Jewish traveling salesman put some coins in an amphora, floated it out to sea, and they eventually found their way down the Mississippi River.
Yeah, that's likely!
OR......the Israelites were in Ohio. But IF such is true, wouldn't the most literate of all peoples have left many records carved in stone or written on parchment and stored away in caves?
Since when were all Israelites literate? You would think a seafarer would have some kind of technical knowledge/expertise and maybe an education along with that, but that's also not necessarily true.
p.s. -- IMHO - Had Israelites founded the Ohio Valley, every woman in Jerusalem would have been sporting genuine racoon hats and buckskin mocassins!
Who says these people went back? It could have been 5 people for all we know and they found some native americans to pal around with.
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I heard this theory from an uber-Jewish source called Sefer Mormon.
No, actually the Mormons claim that all Native Americans were Jews.
Can you see a difference between that claim and suggesting that some Jewish travelers made it over to the New world and intermingled with the Cherokee tribe?
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Well, there you go, KWRBT!
You've already got all the answers!
There are any number of "ancient anomaly" websites you can google, several of which discuss these things mentioned here.
The real question is: What was a 1957 Ford Edsel doing buried beneath the Great Pyramid of Giza?
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Well, there you go, KWRBT!
You've already got all the answers!
There are any number of "ancient anomaly" websites you can google, several of which discuss these things mentioned here.
The real question is: What was a 1957 Ford Edsel doing buried beneath the Great Pyramid of Giza?
I don't really have any answers until I see some scholarly expertise and discussion to back up the "expert opinions" that have been shared so far both in this thread and on that article.
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Here is some information about the Los Lunas Rock:
Science-Frontiers:
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf043/sf043p02.htm
This site argues that it may date from 500 to 2000 years...
Wiki Page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Lunas_Decalogue_Stone
This article disputes the authenticity of the stone.
[removed link]
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/15_home.html
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The following is also found on truthseekers website:
Major rabbi says non-Jews are donkeys, created to serve Jews Just imagine the uproar if a conservative white minister were to say blacks were created to serve whites. The media would go to town. But when Israel’s former Chief Rabbi says non-Jews were created to serve Jews the media are conspicuosly quiet More ...
and this:
Gilad Atzmon: From Rabbi Yosef to Marx In case the Goyim cannot find a purpose in their life, Israeli senior Sephardi Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is there to help them out More ...
There's an old saying: "Consider the source." <<
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The following is also found on truthseekers website:
Major rabbi says non-Jews are donkeys, created to serve Jews Just imagine the uproar if a conservative white minister were to say blacks were created to serve whites. The media would go to town. But when Israel’s former Chief Rabbi says non-Jews were created to serve Jews the media are conspicuosly quiet More ...
and this:
Gilad Atzmon: From Rabbi Yosef to Marx In case the Goyim cannot find a purpose in their life, Israeli senior Sephardi Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is there to help them out More ...
There's an old saying: "Consider the source." <<
What the site said about the stone is effectively the same as the other sites... I dont know if it brings any new information except maybe the discussion of the grammar and spelling errors.
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Re: "I don't really have any answers "
There aren't any - which is precisely why such "subjects" make such tantalizing radio shows and paperback book sales.
There are linguistic sources claiming that the origins of the Japanese language is Hebrew, as well as sources claiming the Japanese beat the Jews to Colorado long before Columbus.
Some things might be somewhat credible based on scant evidence but there are just things that we will never know.
It's also possible that sea-faring peoples who traded with ancient Israelites came and lost their coins in Ohio!
Grey aliens abducted ancient Israelites and after experimenting on them kicked them out of their "Motherships", where they fell and hit Ohio, spilling all their pocket change.
Can you think of some more "plausible" proofs?
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I think bashing people of other faiths, including Mormons, is a bad habit for us to get into. I have known many Mormons and they knew I was Jewish, never tried to convert me, and were good people. They didn't have 5 wives, they were decent hardworking people who were trying to do good in an often evil world
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Thank you for posting this, it seems very interesting, though there are some major things about this that seem improbable off the bat: 1. The difference in the way Jews and Native American metabolize alcohol. That's a genetic commonality we see in Asians, not Jews.
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Cherokee are not descendant of Jews, my girlfriends half Cherokee half scottish and she looks Asian, she has mongoloid features and her eyes are slanted, very few Jews exhibit any mongoloid features with the exception of Jews of Turkic descent.
This is a stupid theory that only afrocentrists or mormons believe.
Not to mention, even if Native Americans had any Jewish heritage, they wouldn't be Jewish halachically considering we don't consider a Jew someone by race, but by the mother.
The only exception to that are the Iquitos Jews of Peru.
Thank you for posting this, it seems very interesting, though there are some major things about this that seem improbable off the bat: 1. The difference in the way Jews and Native American metabolize alcohol. That's a genetic commonality we see in Asians, not Jews.
My dad was a heavy drinker and so am I.
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It's not MassuhDGoodName offering web links like the following, yet I am denounced as "worse than Hitler" (exact quote from "chai"'), and you, muman613, have the unrighteous chutzpah to take that person's side and ask them to please be patient with my "mocking the Jewish faith! " :
Major rabbi says non-Jews are donkeys, created to serve Jews Just imagine the uproar if a conservative white minister were to say blacks were created to serve whites. The media would go to town. But when Israel’s former Chief Rabbi says non-Jews were created to serve Jews the media are conspicuosly quiet More ...
and this:
Gilad Atzmon: From Rabbi Yosef to Marx In case the Goyim cannot find a purpose in their life, Israeli senior Sephardi Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is there to help them out More ...
Typical behavior of those who think they're "Holy men".
You've got serious "issues", Holy Man! - like a "Messianic Complex", an obsession with "power", and proclaiming Zionism while always having a good excuse why you can't move to Israel.
Don't like what I write?
Of course not!
That's you deliberately provoked this confrontation in the first place.
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It's not MassuhDGoodName offering web links like the following, yet I am denounced as "worse than Hitler" (exact quote from "chai"'), and you, muman613, have the unrighteous chutzpah to take that person's side and ask them to please be patient with my "mocking the Jewish faith! " :
Major rabbi says non-Jews are donkeys, created to serve Jews Just imagine the uproar if a conservative white minister were to say blacks were created to serve whites. The media would go to town. But when Israel’s former Chief Rabbi says non-Jews were created to serve Jews the media are conspicuosly quiet More ...
and this:
Gilad Atzmon: From Rabbi Yosef to Marx In case the Goyim cannot find a purpose in their life, Israeli senior Sephardi Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is there to help them out More ...
Typical behavior of those who think they're "Holy men".
You've got serious "issues", Holy Man! - like a "Messianic Complex", an obsession with "power", and proclaiming Zionism while always having a good excuse why you can't move to Israel.
Don't like what I write?
Of course not!
That's you deliberately provoked this confrontation in the first place.
Massuh,
Please consult with a therapist... You are not making sense. I simply posted some information which Tamar Yonah discussed on her radio show and you are getting all defensive. I really don't know what your problem is but I have almost had it with making excuses for you. Please wise up...
I do not know why you think I think I am 'Holier' than you. I learn, I research, I think, and I try to teach others. There is no sin in this. I have honestly said why I cannot make Aliyah at this time. I am not a hypocrite because I cannot make it to Eretz Yisroel at this time. I hope to inspire other Jews to want to make the step. Why do you have a problem with me concerning this?
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Re: "I really don't know what your problem is but I have almost had it with making excuses for you. Please wise up... "
You're a sneak, a liar, and a fraud, muman613, AND YOU KNOW IT!
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muman613,
You don't even scan a neo-Nazi website first, before putting the link on this forum?
And so you're going to purposely attack me for pointing it out?
It's easy to see how righteous you really are!
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Re: "I really don't know what your problem is but I have almost had it with making excuses for you. Please wise up... "
You're a sneak, a liar, and a fraud, muman613, AND YOU KNOW IT!
Are you really a Jew? Or do you just play one on TV?
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muman613,
You don't even scan a neo-Nazi website first, before putting the link on this forum?
And so you're going to purposely attack me for pointing it out?
It's easy to see how righteous you really are!
Massuh,
It was an innocent mistake and I have removed the link. But that is not your problem is it? You have a deep-seated jealousy of my faith...
PS: When did I attack you? I was defending you in the Torah Ideas section.
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Q: Are Amerindian languages descended from Hebrew, Ancient Egyptian, Scandinavian or Celtic languages?
A: No. The people who claim this are trying to prove that American Indians arrived in the Americas very recently (see Could Native Americans be recent immigrants? and Are Native Americans a lost tribe of Israel?) I have seen many websites claiming to "prove" that Amerindian languages are descended from Semitic or Germanic languages. 90% of these websites are deliberately lying, making up nonexistant "Algonquian" words that resemble words from Semitic languages. A quick glance at a dictionary of the Amerindian language in question will reveal these websites for what they are. The other 10% are using linguistically unsound methods--searching two languages for any two vocabulary words that begin with the same letter, essentially, and presenting them as evidence. Using this method, English can be "proved" to descend from Japanese--English "mistake" sounds a little like Japanese "machigai". In fact, if you randomly generate some vocabulary with a computer program, you will be able to find a few words with surface resemblance to any language you want. Real linguistic analysis requires dozens of vocabulary relationships which are regular and predictable, as well as similarities in phonology and syntax, to show that one language is related to another. Here's a good website by a Welsh speaker explaining the substantial linguistic differences between Mandan and Welsh, for example, or a website by an Athabaskan linguist explaining the differences between Carrier and Celtic. No linguist has ever shown a relationship between any Amerindian language family and a Semitic, Germanic or Celtic language.
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Q: Are Native Americans a lost tribe of Israel, Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, or any other people mentioned in the Bible?
A: No. These Biblical events happened only a few thousand years ago. Native Americans were already here. Also, Middle Easterners are Caucasians. American Indians are Mongoloid. (Indians have epicanthic eye folds, like the Chinese do.) Amerindian languages do NOT show any relation to Semitic languages, this data was faked.
Q: Did a lost tribe of Israel sail to America and join the Indians, maybe?
A: It's doubtful. It would have been a long trip, and there's no evidence to suggest it. No Israelite ruins have been found, no oral histories of native peoples mention it, no Semitic art or technology infusions happened in the Americas, and there aren't any Israelite records of such a journey. When the Vikings landed ships on Newfoundland in the 11th century, there were fewer than 100 of them and they stayed there less than ten years, yet they still left behind identifiable Norse ruins, two Viking sagas, and mention of the event in the oral history of the Mi'kmaq Indians. A permanent settlement of more than a thousand Israelites would surely have left behind even more substantial remains, yet there are none.
Q: But aren't there special similarities between Aztec/Mayan culture and ancient Middle Eastern cultures, such as hieroglyphs, pyramids, symbology, traditional religions, and ethical laws like the Ten Commandments?
A: Well, no. First of all, there is no special similarity between Mesoamerican and Ancient Egyptian writing systems. "Hieroglyph" just means "arcane writing". You could as easily call Klingon writing "hieroglyphs" if you wanted to. None of the languages or writing systems of native America are related in any way to Semitic, Norse, or Celtic ones, and the websites we have seen claiming this have been deliberately lying by providing made-up Indian words to "prove" the similarity. A quick glance at an Indian dictionary is enough to prove that the writers of these websites are inventing their "evidence" from thin air--not behavior that lends much credence to their claims. See here for some further information about how to really determine linguistic relationships.
As for the rest, there is no more similarity between Native American and Ancient Egyptian civilizations than between any two ancient cultures. Traditional religions are particularly different. Most Native American traditional religions were animistic, unlike Middle Eastern religions. Some Central American cultures had pantheons of gods, as Egyptians (and Chinese, and Africans, and many other cultures) did, but these pantheons bore so little resemblance to the familiar Egyptian or Greek gods that it took European anthropologists centuries to even figure them out. Mayan and Egyptian pyramids were constructed so differently that modern anthropologists don't even class them as the same style of architecture, and the use of five- and six-sided stars in Mesoamerican decoration does not show a connection to Christianity and Judaism any more than the use of swastikas in ancient North American decoration shows a connection to Nazism. Stars and swastikas are common patterns that even children will doodle without being taught to. The best argument would be the one about ethical laws, for it is true that traditional Native American morality shares similarities to the Ten Commandments (not stealing, not murdering, and not committing adultery). However, it would be hard to envision an ancient society in which stealing, murdering, and adultery were encouraged. It is rather culturally imperialistic to say that such basic morality must have been learned from Egyptians, Israelites, or Christians. Perhaps it would be better, religiously, to say that the Creator made all human beings capable of understanding good and evil, no matter where they live. It certainly is more accurate anthropologically to observe that all human cultures developed such laws, and that one might as well say that the Chinese and Celts were lost tribes of Cherokee on this basis as that the American Indians were lost tribes of Israel.
Q: But I really, really want to believe that Native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel!
A: No one is stopping you, but using made-up vocabulary lists and implausible 'evidence' to prop up your beliefs is bad science and bad faith. If you want to believe, then believe; you shouldn't need evidence to have faith, and you certainly shouldn't need fake evidence.
I have been receiving quite a bit of profanity laced email from Mormons for showing that those word lists are not real Algonquian words. Please think before you hit the 'send' button: is cursing at people who don't tell lies to make it easier for you to believe things really the image of your church you want to be sending out?
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Re: "PS: When did I attack you? I was defending you in the Torah Ideas section.
Like last night when I was denounced for being "worse than Hitler!" by chai?
Somehow you missed that I guess.
And now you say that "I'm just jealous of your faith?"
My faith is the same as yours, and for that matter my faith was my faith while you were screwing up the best part of your life marrying out of the fold.
The purpose of Judaism is not merely to read commentary, daven all day, and try to do every single mitzvah without fail.
Those are all the means to the end.
What's in the heart and soul of any sincere uneducated village idiot, Jewish or not, who longs for and loves Ha'Shem, is received long before the empty repetitions of a Yeshiva master who practices every mitzvah and can quote each line in Talmud but has lost their humanity in the process.
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WI,
If you read the original article there is discussion of King Solomons ships sailing great distances. This occured around the time of the second temple. It is certainly possible that these ships could have made the journey to North America. But again, I have no new information. I have just found this entire topic interesting.
As I said when I discussed this earlier... Only a true DNA genetic test will prove whether there is any semitic origin to the Cherokee tribe.
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WI,
If you read the original article there is discussion of King Solomons ships sailing great distances. This occured around the time of the second temple. It is certainly possible that these ships could have made the journey to North America. But again, I have no new information. I have just found this entire topic interesting.
As I said when I discussed this earlier... Only a true DNA genetic test will prove whether there is any semitic origin to the Cherokee tribe.
phoenicians, maybe, south american indians are different looking than north american indians, so I won't rule it out, but i'm very skeptical. My girlfriends DNA Y chromosome is Q1a3a (can't be traced through female but through male relative). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q1a3a_%28Y-DNA%29
I'm a J2 which is Middle Eastern origin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29
And that Cherokee tribe in Missouri is fraudulent, their not recognized by any other Cherokee tribe, there are only two federally recognized tribes, one of them being in Ohio. The others are primarily white Europeans who lie about their ancestry and rejected by the federal tribes so made up their own. There are about 300 different fake tribes in different states.
Just do a search for them on powwows.com
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Re: "PS: When did I attack you? I was defending you in the Torah Ideas section.
Like last night when I was denounced for being "worse than Hitler!" by chai?
Somehow you missed that I guess.
And now you say that "I'm just jealous of your faith?"
My faith is the same as yours, and for that matter my faith was my faith while you were screwing up the best part of your life marrying out of the fold.
The purpose of Judaism is not merely to read commentary, daven all day, and try to do every single mitzvah without fail.
Those are all the means to the end.
What's in the heart and soul of any sincere uneducated village idiot, Jewish or not, who longs for and loves Ha'Shem, is received long before the empty repetitions of a Yeshiva master who practices every mitzvah and can quote each line in Talmud but has lost their humanity in the process.
My acts of kindness speak for themselves. I treat all of Hashems creations with love and care. Those who love me and know me would vouch for my sincerity in love of doing mitzvot. And my problems in my marriage which occured before I did teshuva will always be a problem. I did not hide this 'dirty' secret. I try to make the best of my life considering the set-backs which have befallen me.
If you would like to discuss my trangressions we can do so in Private Messages because I have dealt with them and I do teshuva each day for these. But you are not my judge, only Hashem will judge me.
Even the most empty Jew is as full of mitzvot as a pomegranate.
Regarding what I wrote the other day... I deleted it shortly after posting it because I did not want to hurt your feelings. Unlike other posters here I do concern myself with the feelings of fellow Jews here at JTF. When I post something which may be taken the wrong way I regret it and try to fix it. What I posted in a knee-jerk reaction to your attacks on Chai was caused by a 'rush to judgement' {if you read my post which discusses Pirkie Avot on Judging I mentioned this one}... I apologize for what I wrote in that post.
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Hi White Israelite,
That was my point. Jews typically do not have problems metabolizing alcohol, but Native Americans and many Asians do.
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I think bashing people of other faiths, including Mormons, is a bad habit for us to get into. I have known many Mormons and they knew I was Jewish, never tried to convert me, and were good people. They didn't have 5 wives, they were decent hardworking people who were trying to do good in an often evil world
I don't have a problem with them if they did have 5 wives.
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Cherokee are not descendant of Jews, my girlfriends half Cherokee half scottish and she looks Asian, she has mongoloid features and her eyes are slanted, very few Jews exhibit any mongoloid features with the exception of Jews of Turkic descent.
That's anecdotal.
This is a stupid theory that only afrocentrists or mormons believe.
What is stupid about it?
Not to mention, even if Native Americans had any Jewish heritage, they wouldn't be Jewish halachically considering we don't consider a Jew someone by race, but by the mother.
That's certainly true, so it's not really at issue.
The only exception to that are the Iquitos Jews of Peru.
Who are they?
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It's not MassuhDGoodName offering web links like the following, yet I am denounced as "worse than Hitler" (exact quote from "chai"'), and you, muman613, have the unrighteous chutzpah to take that person's side and ask them to please be patient with my "mocking the Jewish faith! " :
Major rabbi says non-Jews are donkeys, created to serve Jews Just imagine the uproar if a conservative white minister were to say blacks were created to serve whites. The media would go to town. But when Israel’s former Chief Rabbi says non-Jews were created to serve Jews the media are conspicuosly quiet More ...
and this:
Gilad Atzmon: From Rabbi Yosef to Marx In case the Goyim cannot find a purpose in their life, Israeli senior Sephardi Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is there to help them out More ...
Typical behavior of those who think they're "Holy men".
You've got serious "issues", Holy Man! - like a "Messianic Complex", an obsession with "power", and proclaiming Zionism while always having a good excuse why you can't move to Israel.
Don't like what I write?
Of course not!
That's you deliberately provoked this confrontation in the first place.
Is it possible Muman made an honest mistake?
Why does he have to be perfect because he's a religious Jew?
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I see there's a lot of controversy surrounding the stone, and Hibben cannot be trusted because of his prior fabrications. Nonetheless, there's a lot of argument over this.
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Cherokee are not descendant of Jews, my girlfriends half Cherokee half scottish and she looks Asian, she has mongoloid features and her eyes are slanted, very few Jews exhibit any mongoloid features with the exception of Jews of Turkic descent.
That's anecdotal.
This is a stupid theory that only afrocentrists or mormons believe.
What is stupid about it?
Not to mention, even if Native Americans had any Jewish heritage, they wouldn't be Jewish halachically considering we don't consider a Jew someone by race, but by the mother.
That's certainly true, so it's not really at issue.
The only exception to that are the Iquitos Jews of Peru.
Who are they?
# Amazonian Jews are the mixed descendants of Moroccan Jewish communities in Belém, Santarém, Manaus, Iquitos, Tarapoto and many river villages in the Amazon basin in Brazil and Peru.
* Iquitos Jews are the "accidental" descendants of mostly Moroccan Jewish traders and tappers who arrived in the Peruvian Amazon city of Iquitos during the rubber boom of the 1880s. Since their Jewish descent was patrilineal (Jewish traders had been all males who coupled up with local mestizo or Amerindian females), their Jewishness is not recognised according to halakha. An enduring casta system stemming from the colonial period has resulted in virtually no interaction between the Iquitos Jews and the small, mostly Ashkenazi Jewish, population concentrated in Lima (under 3,000) who are integrated into Lima's elite white minority. Thanks to efforts made by Israeli outreach programmes, some have formally returned to Judaism, made aliyah and now live in Israel.
# B'nai Moshe are converts to Judaism originally from Trujillo, Peru. They are also known as Inca Jews, a name derived from the fact that they can trace indigenous Amerindian descent, as most are mestizos (persons of both Spanish and Amerindian descent) though none with any known ancestors from other Jewish communities. Again, there is no interaction between Peru's small Ashkenazi population and the Inca Jews. At the neglect of the Ashkenazi community, the conversions were conducted under the auspices of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. Most have made aliyah and now live in Israel, while a few hundred more of the same community are awaiting conversions.
# Veracruz Jews are a recently emergent community of Jews in Veracruz, Mexico. Whether they are gentile converts to Judaism or descendants of anusim returning to Judaism is speculative. Most claim they descend from anusim.
(http://www.elreloj.com/data/images/articles/2006/02/14/familiacohen.jpg)
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WI,
Do you know when and the circumstances surrounding the B'nai Moshe Jews
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WI,
Do you know when and the circumstances surrounding the B'nai Moshe Jews
The community was founded in 1966 by a local man of Trujillo named Villanueva, who faced great exclusion and prejudice in his native city as a result of his decision to convert from the Catholic Church to Judaism. Villanueva had visited Spain for a time, learning from the local Sephardic community, and upon his return, taught around 500 disillusioned former Catholics in Trujillo about Judaism, igniting a spark which would ultimately lead to their conversion to Judaism and joining the Jewish people.
In 1985, Villanueva made contact with the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who sent Rabbi Myron Zuber to Peru to help with their formal conversions. In 1988, Zuber arrived in Peru and aided the converts in matters such as how to properly observe kashrut and Shabbat.
As a result of the Lima community's continuing reluctance, it was eventually decided that the B'nai Moshe could not reach their full potential in Peru, and decided that they make aliyah (emigration) to Israel once converted. A Beit Din initially performed formal conversions for about 300 members of the community in 1991, almost all of whom emigrated to Israel, who were followed by an additional 200 several years later. A community of around 30 B'nai Moshe moved to Lima at the same time, although they continued to face discrimination from the Ashkenazi community[2]. Another 84 were formally converted in 2001.
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Converting Inca Indians in Peru
By Rabbi Myron Zuber
It all began in 1966, in the Peruvian city of Trujillo, with a man called Villaneuva, a good Catholic who frequently attended church. It was customary for the people to sing a psalm en route to church. On that particular Sunday they were singing Psalm 121, "I will lift my eyes to the hills..." When he came to the fourth verse, "Behold, the Keeper of Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps," he began to ponder, why shouldn't he join that group of people who have 24-hour Divine supervision? Discussions with his priest could not reconcile his difficulties. After a period of time Villaneuva came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church could not satisfy his spiritual search; he decided to embrace Judaism.
However, in a staunchly Catholic country like Peru one cannot offhandedly dismiss the religion of the country and become Jewish without encountering severe obstacles. Villaneuva was excommunicated from the Church, which posted a sign proclaiming that no one could socialize with him or marry into his family. Villaneuva remained undaunted. The following week, more extreme measures were employed, and Villaneuva discovered that he had no electricity or plumbing. Still he refused to capitulate.
Villaneuva's children were afraid that the tension would erupt into physical blows so they encouraged their parents to go to Spain. While there, he studied Rambam and Abarbanel in Spanish and visited the small Jewish community in Madrid to acquire as much knowledge as possible. After six months, the furor dissipated and the parents returned to Peru.
In the interim, the priest was defrocked by the bishop for having failed to adequately guide his flock. Villaneuva wasted no time and immediately set about educating his contemporaries with his newfound knowledge. It did not take long for him to amass 500 people who also wished to convert to Judaism. Now he faced the problem of what to do with all these people who wished to become Jewish. The small Jewish community in Lima, composed of post-World War II refugees of Polish and Hungarian descent, callously looked down on the Inca Indians as social inferiors. If the Indians attended shul, the Lima Jews would intentionally exclude them; they gave no encouragement, no aliya, no honors. Nobody was receptive to them, nobody invited them to a home or helped them in any way. The Indians returned to their homes totally disheartened.
Villanueva tried to obtain Spanish siddurim and, not being cognizant of the correct dinim, constructed his own tephilin out of wood. (Incidentally, this unusual pair of tephilin, a labor of love and self sacrifice, is presently housed in the Museum of Jews of the Galuth in Israel.) For 20 years Villaneuva struggled single-handedly for the solution to his dilemma.
In 1985 he contacted the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and Lubavitch Rabbi Chadakov immediately got in touch with me since he said I was "proficient in the laws of ritual slaughter and adept at mingling with people." I agreed to travel to Peru to aid these Inca Indians in their quest to become Jewish and immediately enrolled in intensive Spanish studies.
I arrived in Peru in 1988 and discovered that the people were genuinely committed. They davened every day, but, due to the scarcity of tephilin, Villaneuva wore the tephilin first, and after his turn a big line formed and people took five-minute turns using the tephilin.
On Shabbos the entire community got together at long tables for a meal of fish and vegetables. There is an obvious absence of meat or poultry in these people's diet because nobody there knows how to properly slaughter an animal according to Jewish law. Trujillo is 11 hours from Lima, so transporting kosher meat in this hot climate would not be feasible. The women baked their own challah and participants are generally optimistic and jovial.
The Jews in Lima displayed unwarranted prejudice in their refusal to allow these people to use their mikva. Therefore the people in Trujillo use the ocean as a mikva, and the Jews of Cajamarca, further inland, use a nearby waterfall.
Although I was most interested in instructing the congregation about practical matters such as kashrut or Shabbat, they were especially interested in more esoteric concepts such as gilgul (reincarnation) and Mashiach. These people were extremely self-sacrificing. They constantly thought about being Jewish and were prepared to offer all their possessions in order to practice Judaism properly. For example, one woman sold all her jewelry at the market in order to obtain money to pay for tephilin for her son on his bar mitzvah. The woman's husband, who usually finds work only two days a week, traveled to Ecuador to work in the mines so he could obtain enough money to purchase a new suit for the child and a new dress for his wife.
Villaneuva traveled to Lima in order to have a bris. The mohel was more lenient than other Jews there; he felt that if these people sincerely wanted to become Jewish he would not stand in their way.
The people would gather around a table each Sunday to discuss the Sidra and Villaneuva would lead the discussion. One time during the Sidra discussion a person interrupted to comment that he was having car trouble. Villaneuva immediately stopped the trivial side issue and insisted that a table was comparable to an altar; therefore, only holy ideas could be expounded in its presence. On another occasion it was discovered that a man had profaned the Shabbos. Villaneuva immediately excommunicated him despite the man's tears and protest.
The situation came to a head. What would become of these people? It was not possible for them to achieve their potential as Jews if they continued to live in these isolated conditions. The community decided that they would have to relocate either to the United States or Israel.
Villaneuva opted for Israel and everyone agreed to abide by his proposal. He was extremely respected in the community and his advice was always taken.
A Bais Din from Eretz Yisrael came to Peru and converted many of these people. Then two groups of approximately 380 people emigrated to Israel and settled in Elon Moreh, on the West Bank. Most were young people, the older ones being only 43 years of age. They rapidly integrated into Israeli society, far more successfully than the Russian or Ethiopian Jews. Some Inca Indians joined the Israeli army while others found jobs and became productive members of society. They managed to merge into Israeli mainstream society and settled down to a relatively comfortable lifestyle.
After this mass exodus took place, I was under the false impression that there was nothing left of Inca Jewry in Peru. A small number of individuals had chosen to remain because of their jobs. Others voluntarily chose to stay because they felt incapable of starting over and relocating to a foreign country. In no time at all, more people became interested in the Jewish phenomenon and soon there were 200 people who joined the group of committed Jews.
A neighborhood of about 30 Jewish Inca Indians also grew in Lima, and they experienced difficulty with the other Jews of Lima. One problem was that the excellent school established by the Jewish community refused to register a seven-year-old child of a Jewish Incan mother, saying the tuition was too expensive (the mother thought the real reason was that they were prejudiced against her Indian status). The school had accepted two Catholic girls, children of the vice president of the country, and hired a Catholic teacher to provide them with religious instruction. I was extremely upset that the Jewish school was more prepared to provide for Catholic hierarchy than for their own Jewish brethren, who happened to be Indians. I approached the staff of the school and was adamant until they finally relented and admitted the Incan child.
The Lima Jews do not permit the Inca Jews to enter their synagogue, even though the Incans were converted by a Bais Din of Israel.
One day I was approached by a group of women in Trujillo who wished to speak with me privately about nidah (family purity). I was embarrassed by the subject matter and relatively unfamiliar with the intricate details. I decided to suggest that in the future a husband and wife team should visit the Inca Indian Jews, so the woman would be available to discuss matters pertaining to women.
On Shabbos the children sang beautifully, songs they already knew, and other smiros I taught them. Each week somebody would come to the community as a curious observer. One week a man by the name of Serna, a professor of French at the University of Trujillo, came. Extremely impressed by the melodious singing, he suggested the youngsters sing on public television. The children were extremely excited at the possibility and I instructed them regarding the occasion. However Valderama, Villaneuva's successor, refused to allow this. He did not think it a good idea for the Jewish community to be in the limelight; that this would promote antagonism and foster ill feeling.
Before my departure, I helped the group organize shiurim on the weekly Torah portion. I was happy to note that these people are thinking individuals able to figure out resolutions to questions. I invited them to call me collect if they ever encountered questions they were unable to resolve.
I encouraged them to sing and dance, and advised them to incorporate their Indian melodies to Hebrew songs. I taped a beautiful Indian melody used to sing Psalm 121, "I lift up my eyes to the mountains." I did not want them to abandon their culture, but to merge it and make it a part of their new-found Judaism. I encouraged them to dance Indian dances for Yiddishkeit enhancement. Trujillo had a community of 180 when I left.
I traveled to the small community in Cajamarca to make my farewells and planned to stay only a few days. The people were disappointed and asked me what it would take for me to stay. I replied that they only numbered eight, not enough for a minyan. However, if two additional people would agree to have themselves circumcised, I would remain. Two people immediately agreed to this proposal and traveled to Lima to have the operation performed. I extended my stay. The community of Cajamarca eventually plans to go to Israel but the Israeli government wishes to verify their commitment to Judaism. If they are still Jewish after a two-year waiting period Israel will accept them.
Each Incan Jew has taken a new Jewish name to augment his Jewish identity. However, many still retain their Spanish names. One man, ironically, is called Jesus, and it is amusing to comment that Jesus read the Torah portion nicely today. It takes a while to make a total switch from the old Spanish names to the new unfamiliar Jewish names.
Villaneuva changed his name to Tzidkiyahu and is revered as a prophet and leader in Israel. His presence commands respect. Valderama, his successor, longed for a sefer Torah for his shul. He approached the shul in Lima with his request but the Jews refused to give him anything, even though there are a large number of sifrei Torah decomposing in the basement of the Lima shul. I opened one at random and was shocked to witness the escape of numerous cockroaches. The sefer Torah is permitted to house repulsive insects but is forbidden to the Inca Indian Jews.
Undaunted, Valderama set about making his own sefer Torah. Unfamiliar with the dinim entailed in writing a sefer Torah, he proceeded to painstakingly photocopy each page from the Chumash on to parchment. He then sewed the pieces of parchment together to form a Torah scroll. An Israeli museum requested this sefer Torah for purposes of display because they were impressed with this effort.
I always tried to be accommodating and flexible in trying to merge the two cultures. When a congregant asked if he should sit shiva for his Catholic mother, I compromised by telling him that he could sit for one day. Another asked if he should continue placing fresh flowers on his mother's grave. I responded that since flowers are expensive it is more productive to convert this expenditure into tzedakah and give charity in her honor. I sympathize with these people and tried to satisfy their old ties so long as it did not interfere in their Jewish affiliation.
I have been back in the States for a few years now. I remain in telephone contact with my friends in Peru, and my wife visits twice a year to help the women. I spend much of my time speaking about these courageous Jewish Incans, trying to raise donations for their many needs.
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It's not MassuhDGoodName offering web links like the following, yet I am denounced as "worse than Hitler" (exact quote from "chai"'), and you, muman613, have the unrighteous chutzpah to take that person's side and ask them to please be patient with my "mocking the Jewish faith! " :
Major rabbi says non-Jews are donkeys, created to serve Jews Just imagine the uproar if a conservative white minister were to say blacks were created to serve whites. The media would go to town. But when Israel’s former Chief Rabbi says non-Jews were created to serve Jews the media are conspicuosly quiet More ...
and this:
Gilad Atzmon: From Rabbi Yosef to Marx In case the Goyim cannot find a purpose in their life, Israeli senior Sephardi Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is there to help them out More ...
Typical behavior of those who think they're "Holy men".
You've got serious "issues", Holy Man! - like a "Messianic Complex", an obsession with "power", and proclaiming Zionism while always having a good excuse why you can't move to Israel.
Don't like what I write?
Of course not!
That's you deliberately provoked this confrontation in the first place.
Im loving what you are writing and laughing all the way.
I think you have dementia, I was using the Roseta stone to learn Hebrew better, but now it looks like I have to go to the Ha-ulpan at Macon Avi (its not cheap). In a few days Im off to Israel because I convinced my friend to go there, so he may fall in love with it ) I will be taking pics of Rav Kahanes site on Nov the 5th and hanging it on my wall. Then Im looking at a Grad schools there and interviews you bum. And Yea im proud of Making this Alia process so I will brag because Ive earned it. If that makes me a "holy man" was it? so be it!
Im a Jew who is going home and wants it to be a JEWISH state. Sue me. Ive volunteered my life for this country now its time to do it for my home.
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Re: "PS: When did I attack you? I was defending you in the Torah Ideas section.
Like last night when I was denounced for being "worse than Hitler!" by chai?
Somehow you missed that I guess.
And now you say that "I'm just jealous of your faith?"
My faith is the same as yours, and for that matter my faith was my faith while you were screwing up the best part of your life marrying out of the fold.
The purpose of Judaism is not merely to read commentary, daven all day, and try to do every single mitzvah without fail.
Those are all the means to the end.
What's in the heart and soul of any sincere uneducated village idiot, Jewish or not, who longs for and loves Ha'Shem, is received long before the empty repetitions of a Yeshiva master who practices every mitzvah and can quote each line in Talmud but has lost their humanity in the process.
Your right calling you worse then Hitler was a compliment.... for you.
But you insanity speaks volumes, so much so I dont think I even need to resort to name calling.
"My faith is the same as yours" HAH :::D
"The purpose of Judaism is not merely to read commentary, daven all day, and try to do every single mitzvah without fail.
Those are all the means to the end".
Good ol often wrong Massa, you er as usual, The purpose of Judaism is dont do onto other what you dont want to be done to you ( except snakes like Massa who people need to stand up to lol) the rest is commentary go read it!
"The go read it" part is conveniently forgotten for some and being good to man by others and all by Massa LOL
My goodness you have such contempt for Judaism Go find the answers that you are bothered by if you are so smart instead of formulating negative things about this faith you think is Judaism you keep criticize. Be upset at people that dont preach what they practice not at the of G-d.
If you dont like the way I represent Judaism then be upset at me not the faith , but its easy to just get upset at the faith at a whole , Stop being bitter you will die young.
Ive asked questions here regarding my faith being shaken but I listen to the other side.
I have tolerance for your Hellenistic wild lifestyle you claim to brag about in your ask post ,G-d bless you, Ive done it too, but dont criticize real Judaism for what its not , I will defend it.
One sad note , my gf just said to me that massa and I have more in common about the faith than we would like to admit. That made my night.
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Most of those so called Cherokee that claim Jewish descent generally look like this
(http://theucn.com/drh.jpg)
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That has to be one of the funniest pictures I've ever seen, WI. It's sad that he is so self-hating about being white that he has to identify with something that's either 1% of his heritage or not there at all. For some reason a lot of Scottish-American families were somehow convinced they had Indian blood due to "high cheekbones".
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Re: "Your right calling you worse then Hitler was a compliment.... for you.
But you insanity speaks volumes, so much so I dont think I even need to resort to name calling.
"My faith is the same as yours" HAH rotflmao!
"The purpose of Judaism is not merely to read commentary, daven all day, and try to do every single mitzvah without fail.
Those are all the means to the end".
Good ol often wrong Massa, you er as usual, The purpose of Judaism is dont do onto other what you dont want to be done to you ( except snakes like Massa who people need to stand up to lol) the rest is commentary go read it!
"The go read it" part is conveniently forgotten for some and being good to man by others and all by Massa LOL
My goodness you have such contempt for Judaism Go find the answers that you are bothered by if you are so smart instead of formulating negative things about this faith you think is Judaism you keep criticize. Be upset at people that dont preach what they practice not at the of G-d.
If you dont like the way I represent Judaism then be upset at me not the faith , but its easy to just get upset at the faith at a whole , Stop being bitter you will die young.
Ive asked questions here regarding my faith being shaken but I listen to the other side.
I have tolerance for your Hellenistic wild lifestyle you claim to brag about in your ask post ,G-d bless you, Ive done it too, but dont criticize real Judaism for what its not , I will defend it.
One sad note , my gf just said to me that massa and I have more in common about the faith than we would like to admit. That made my night.
YOU'RE A SLIMEY KIKE MAMZER, CHAI.
F_C_k you!
PIECE OF C-k SUCKING SCHEISSE, ALONG WITH YOUR MOTHER!
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P.S. AND THE SAME GOES FOR YOU muman613!
BY ALLOWING SUCH POSTS FROM CHAI TO REMAIN ON THE FORUM UNCHALLENGED YOU SHOW WHAT A TOTAL FRAUD AND GREASY FAKE KIKE YOU REALLY ARE!
HOW ABOUT EXPLAINING HOW IT IS THAT YOU, MUMAN 613, CAME ON THE FORUM ON SHABBOS!
WAS THAT ONE OF MUMAN613'S "HOLY MITZVOT"?
I HAVE PROOF OF YOU DOING SO.
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I don't know Tamar Yonah but this is seriously nutty. Native Americans are largely Northeast Asiatic. They have nothing to do with Middle Easterners. The only people who promote this theory are the polytheistic Mormons (who literally belive that any devout Mormon can become a gd of their own universe when they die).
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Very interesting post about incan Jews.
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Most of those so called Cherokee that claim Jewish descent generally look like this
You know, even one generation of intermarrying can make Jews start to look very different.
What do you think is going to happen if there have been hundreds of years of intermarriage! Looking at facial features of Cherokee IMO has nothing to do with the question, but I'm not saying there's proof either.
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That has to be one of the funniest pictures I've ever seen, WI. It's sad that he is so self-hating about being white that he has to identify with something that's either 1% of his heritage or not there at all. For some reason a lot of Scottish-American families were somehow convinced they had Indian blood due to "high cheekbones".
If he's proud of his native american heritage, why does that make him "self hating about being white?"
I happen to be part native american myself. Admittedly, a very, very small part. I don't wear indian costumes or whatever, but I don't see why it takes away or impacts being "white" - white is just a skin color. If I embrace my Litvak (Lithuania) background over another part of my european background, does that mean I'm self-hating being "white" ? I don't get that.
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Re: "PS: When did I attack you? I was defending you in the Torah Ideas section.
Like last night when I was denounced for being "worse than Hitler!" by chai?
Somehow you missed that I guess.
And now you say that "I'm just jealous of your faith?"
My faith is the same as yours, and for that matter my faith was my faith while you were screwing up the best part of your life marrying out of the fold.
The purpose of Judaism is not merely to read commentary, daven all day, and try to do every single mitzvah without fail.
Those are all the means to the end.
What's in the heart and soul of any sincere uneducated village idiot, Jewish or not, who longs for and loves Ha'Shem, is received long before the empty repetitions of a Yeshiva master who practices every mitzvah and can quote each line in Talmud but has lost their humanity in the process.
Your right calling you worse then Hitler was a compliment.... for you.
But you insanity speaks volumes, so much so I dont think I even need to resort to name calling.
"My faith is the same as yours" HAH :::D
"The purpose of Judaism is not merely to read commentary, daven all day, and try to do every single mitzvah without fail.
Those are all the means to the end".
Good ol often wrong Massa, you er as usual, The purpose of Judaism is dont do onto other what you dont want to be done to you ( except snakes like Massa who people need to stand up to lol) the rest is commentary go read it!
"The go read it" part is conveniently forgotten for some and being good to man by others and all by Massa LOL
My goodness you have such contempt for Judaism Go find the answers that you are bothered by if you are so smart instead of formulating negative things about this faith you think is Judaism you keep criticize. Be upset at people that dont preach what they practice not at the of G-d.
If you dont like the way I represent Judaism then be upset at me not the faith , but its easy to just get upset at the faith at a whole , Stop being bitter you will die young.
Ive asked questions here regarding my faith being shaken but I listen to the other side.
I have tolerance for your Hellenistic wild lifestyle you claim to brag about in your ask post ,G-d bless you, Ive done it too, but dont criticize real Judaism for what its not , I will defend it.
One sad note , my gf just said to me that massa and I have more in common about the faith than we would like to admit. That made my night.
Chai- I don't know what the hell you two are fighting about, but why are you being so nasty? You don't have to like what massah says all the time, but what is with this? (And yes, I see how he responded too, but what can you expect after comments like this?) When you talk about "hellenistic lifestyle" - what are you referring to? How do you know what Massuh's lifestyle is?
I understand you two don't see eye to eye on religious issues, but there's got to be a better way to iron that out than to sling insults at each other. And I'm saying that to both of you.
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Re: "Chai- I don't know what the hell you two are fighting about, but why are you being so nasty? You don't have to like what massah says all the time, but what is with this? (And yes, I see how he responded too, but what can you expect after comments like this?) When you talk about "hellenistic lifestyle" - what are you referring to? How do you know what Massuh's lifestyle is? I understand you two don't see eye to eye on religious issues, "
You know, KWRBT, I suddenly last evening am caught off guard with a double-sided attack, one from muman613, and immediately another by chai, both reinforcing the other, both taking the position that "they've tried and tried and tried, but 'the Satanic Hitler' [my words not theirs] still wants to be banned, and is doing everything he can think of to force us to ban him, and they've given him all the chances in the world to repent and accept Chabad Lubavitch as the Perfect Faith, but Noooooo....he still continues as a din rodef!....etc..."
That's bad enough. But if some two bit punk wants to START insulting me without any reason whatsoever, and slinging the worst imaginable scheisse in my face, then they're lucky that all I am able to do is sling it right back.
THIS IS NOT THE LUBAVITCHER CHABAD FORUM!
IT IS THE JEWISH TASK FORCE FORUM!
IT'S NOT HERE FOR SOME BAAL T'SHUVAH MODERATOR TO USE AS HIS PERSONAL "EVANGELICAL STYLE" PROSELYTIZING BOARD, WHERE EITHER EVERYONE HERE MUST EITHER MEET THEIR PERSONAL STANDARDS OF HOLINESS OR BE CHASTISED, REBUKED, AND DENOUNCED AS "NOT A GOOD JEW".
NOR IS THE JEWISH TASK FORCE A MOVEMENT WHICH HAS AS ITS PLATFORM TO BULLDOZE ALL CHURCHES, SHRINES, AND HOLY PLACES IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL IMPORTANT TO THE CHRISTIANS AND OTHERS WHO LOVE JEWS AND ARE HELPING US.
If those of some other mindset want to start their own forum to proselytize for their version of "being religious and holy" I have no objections whatsoever to their doing so. There they can denounce everyone and everything they find to have "shortcomings as a Jew", and can insult Christians and Hindus and Sikhs and rant about bulldozing every Church and Shrine in the world because that's what their "G-d" ordered them to do. They have the right to establish such a forum, and I have the right not to join it.
If I am slandered here as "worse than Hitler" while our "Moderator" stands idly by, and then joins in the attack with continued falsehoods to add to the slander, then why even have a Moderator here?
And I'm not apologizing for any of the posts or threads I've put up on this forum.
I have gone out of my way never to intentionally provoke or insult others here.
And if the answer to my post here is that I be banned from JTF "because I am now proving I'm worse than Hitler" and "have done nothing but post anti-Jewish Dogma" and "all I do is slander the Jewish religion and Torah" then go ahead and ban me.
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Re: "Chai- I don't know what the hell you two are fighting about, but why are you being so nasty? You don't have to like what massah says all the time, but what is with this? (And yes, I see how he responded too, but what can you expect after comments like this?) When you talk about "hellenistic lifestyle" - what are you referring to? How do you know what Massuh's lifestyle is? I understand you two don't see eye to eye on religious issues, "
You know, KWRBT, I suddenly last evening am caught off guard with a double-sided attack, one from muman613, and immediately another by chai, both reinforcing the other, both taking the position that "they've tried and tried and tried, but 'the Satanic Hitler' [my words not theirs] still wants to be banned, and is doing everything he can think of to force us to ban him, and they've given him all the chances in the world to repent and accept Chabad Lubavitch as the Perfect Faith, but Noooooo....he still continues as a din rodef!....etc..."
That's bad enough. But if some two bit punk wants to START insulting me without any reason whatsoever, and slinging the worst imaginable scheisse in my face, then they're lucky that all I am able to do is sling it right back.
THIS IS NOT THE LUBAVITCHER CHABAD FORUM!
IT IS THE JEWISH TASK FORCE FORUM!
IT'S NOT HERE FOR SOME BAAL T'SHUVAH MODERATOR TO USE AS HIS PERSONAL "EVANGELICAL STYLE" PROSELYTIZING BOARD, WHERE EITHER EVERYONE HERE MUST EITHER MEET THEIR PERSONAL STANDARDS OF HOLINESS OR BE CHASTISED, REBUKED, AND DENOUNCED AS "NOT A GOOD JEW".
NOR IS THE JEWISH TASK FORCE A MOVEMENT WHICH HAS AS ITS PLATFORM TO BULLDOZE ALL CHURCHES, SHRINES, AND HOLY PLACES IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL IMPORTANT TO THE CHRISTIANS AND OTHERS WHO LOVE JEWS AND ARE HELPING US.
If those of some other mindset want to start their own forum to proselytize for their version of "being religious and holy" I have no objections whatsoever to their doing so. There they can denounce everyone and everything they find to have "shortcomings as a Jew", and can insult Christians and Hindus and Sikhs and rant about bulldozing every Church and Shrine in the world because that's what their "G-d" ordered them to do. They have the right to establish such a forum, and I have the right not to join it.
If I am slandered here as "worse than Hitler" while our "Moderator" stands idly by, and then joins in the attack with continued falsehoods to add to the slander, then why even have a Moderator here?
And I'm not apologizing for any of the posts or threads I've put up on this forum.
I have gone out of my way never to intentionally provoke or insult others here.
And if the answer to my post here is that I be banned from JTF "because I am now proving I'm worse than Hitler" and "have done nothing but post anti-Jewish Dogma" and "all I do is slander the Jewish religion and Torah" then go ahead and ban me.
I don't agree with all that you post here but I think you are correct here. I am curious too about this "baal teshuva" moderator (as you put it) who, among other things, has claimed that Jews are not white (when he first came to JTF, not anytime recently), makes some very bizarre statements about Torah (such as that it supports marriages between grown men and girls like Wonga said), and said that he feels bad for the "misguided" people that "might" be on the terrorist Nazi Gaza flotilla--and now actually claims that Native Americans are part Jewish.
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Re: "Chai- I don't know what the hell you two are fighting about, but why are you being so nasty? You don't have to like what massah says all the time, but what is with this? (And yes, I see how he responded too, but what can you expect after comments like this?) When you talk about "hellenistic lifestyle" - what are you referring to? How do you know what Massuh's lifestyle is? I understand you two don't see eye to eye on religious issues, "
You know, KWRBT, I suddenly last evening am caught off guard with a double-sided attack, one from muman613, and immediately another by chai, both reinforcing the other, both taking the position that "they've tried and tried and tried, but 'the Satanic Hitler' [my words not theirs] still wants to be banned, and is doing everything he can think of to force us to ban him, and they've given him all the chances in the world to repent and accept Chabad Lubavitch as the Perfect Faith, but Noooooo....he still continues as a din rodef!....etc..."
That's bad enough. But if some two bit punk wants to START insulting me without any reason whatsoever, and slinging the worst imaginable scheisse in my face, then they're lucky that all I am able to do is sling it right back.
I hear that, I understand where you're coming from. I don't understand why you're being attacked.
THIS IS NOT THE LUBAVITCHER CHABAD FORUM!
IT IS THE JEWISH TASK FORCE FORUM!
Agreed.
1. IT'S NOT HERE FOR SOME BAAL T'SHUVAH MODERATOR TO USE AS HIS PERSONAL "EVANGELICAL STYLE" PROSELYTIZING BOARD, WHERE EITHER EVERYONE HERE MUST EITHER MEET THEIR PERSONAL STANDARDS OF HOLINESS OR BE CHASTISED, REBUKED, AND DENOUNCED AS "NOT A GOOD JEW".
2. NOR IS THE JEWISH TASK FORCE A MOVEMENT WHICH HAS AS ITS PLATFORM TO BULLDOZE ALL CHURCHES, SHRINES, AND HOLY PLACES IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL IMPORTANT TO THE CHRISTIANS AND OTHERS WHO LOVE JEWS AND ARE HELPING US.
Issue 1 - Of course. I don't like the attitude of denouncing people if they don't meet one's religious standards - it does reflect insecurity, and I don't totally understand it to be honest.
Issue 2 - Chaim has addressed this issue directly, fairly recently (I think it came up on an ASK JTF or somewhere on the forum and he addressed it both here and on the Hebrew forum). That said, people do have a right to their own opinions. If you don't like their opinion, argue against them and explain why they're wrong. But resorting to the attacks isn't worth it and doesn't solve anything. Hopefully we agree on that.
If those of some other mindset want to start their own forum to proselytize for their version of "being religious and holy" I have no objections whatsoever to their doing so. There they can denounce everyone and everything they find to have "shortcomings as a Jew", and can insult Christians and Hindus and Sikhs and rant about bulldozing every Church and Shrine in the world because that's what their "G-d" ordered them to do. They have the right to establish such a forum, and I have the right not to join it.
Certainly they have a right to forming a separate site etc, but they also do have a right to express their opinion here even if others don't like it. Other people who don't like it can explain why they think it's wrong. I don't think you can ban people or force them to start a new forum because you don't like their attitude on a given issue.
If I am slandered here as "worse than Hitler" while our "Moderator" stands idly by, and then joins in the attack with continued falsehoods to add to the slander, then why even have a Moderator here?
That, you would have to take up with the admins. I think that in the Torah section perhaps there is no moderator, but I'm not sure. If it is Muman, then you can take your complaint to Chaim and others. I hear what you're saying.
And I'm not apologizing for any of the posts or threads I've put up on this forum.
If you guys can iron things out maybe you'll reconsider. I don't think it's reasonable to expect you to apologize while you're still having insults flung at you.
I have gone out of my way never to intentionally provoke or insult others here.
Nonetheless, this can happen from time to time. None of us are immune.
And if the answer to my post here is that I be banned from JTF "because I am now proving I'm worse than Hitler" and "have done nothing but post anti-Jewish Dogma" and "all I do is slander the Jewish religion and Torah" then go ahead and ban me.
I don't have the power to ban anyone, nor do I want that power, but I'm about 99.9% sure that none of the people who do have that power are going to ban you. Where did you do something to deserve banning?
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One more comment Massuh and KWRBT, from what I know of Chabad they are extremely warm, loving people who care about all human beings, but most of all their fellow Jews. I find it extremely hard to believe that most Chabad would constantly attack or denounce Jews who aren't as religious as they are or who disagree with them on a theological matter.
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One more comment Massuh and KWRBT, from what I know of Chabad they are extremely warm, loving people who care about all human beings, but most of all their fellow Jews. I find it extremely hard to believe that most Chabad would constantly attack or denounce Jews who aren't as religious as they are or who disagree with them on a theological matter.
I know Chabad people, and I don't think that about Chabad. Nonetheless, this is still not exclusively a Chabad forum. But I'm not sure how Chabad even got into this discussion.
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I think Massuh started discussing Chabad because the person in question here is always citing Chabad opinions and discussing his close relationship with Chabad. I'm sure you do know them a lot better than I do, but can you give me some specifics? Where have you seen Chabad denouncing other Jews? Actually I can't think of very many Jews at all who behave as Massuh has complained of.
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Wi,
Thank you very much for posting that fascinating article. Thank you very much
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I think Massuh started discussing Chabad because the person in question here is always citing Chabad opinions and discussing his close relationship with Chabad. I'm sure you do know them a lot better than I do, but can you give me some specifics? Where have you seen Chabad denouncing other Jews? Actually I can't think of very many Jews at all who behave as Massuh has complained of.
Please read my comment again because it seems you interpreted the exact opposite of what I said about Chabad. I said Chabad people are not like that.
Even some of the reform and conservative Jews that I know like chabad.
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I don't agree with all that you post here but I think you are correct here. I am curious too about this "baal teshuva" moderator (as you put it) who, among other things, has claimed that Jews are not white (when he first came to JTF, not anytime recently), makes some very bizarre statements about Torah (such as that it supports marriages between grown men and girls like Wonga said), and said that he feels bad for the "misguided" people that "might" be on the terrorist Nazi Gaza flotilla--and now actually claims that Native Americans are part Jewish.
When you say you are "curious," I don't know what you are curious about, muman is trying his best like anyone else, he's just having a dispute with a few members here apparently.
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Btw, Massuh, while I stand by all that I've said to you thus far, I do think you need to realize that at times you caricature and ridicule religious Jews, and while I obviously said I don't agree with muman's way of responding to that, you shouldn't act like you are not ever provoking anyone. Muman may be a little over-sensitive so he doesn't take kindly to that stuff and he overreacts to you in return. As I see it, you guys are both provoking each other.
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Btw, Massuh, while I stand by all that I've said to you thus far, I do think you need to realize that at times you caricature and ridicule religious Jews, and while I obviously said I don't agree with muman's way of responding to that, you shouldn't act like you are not ever provoking anyone. Muman may be a little over-sensitive so he doesn't take kindly to that stuff and he overreacts to you in return. As I see it, you guys are both provoking each other.
What do you mean 'mumans way of responding to that'... I do not do anything to anyone who doesn't want to observe commandments. I believe, as most Jews do, that every Jew has free will to either do or not do and it is not my place to tell anyone what to do. Throughout my entire time posting here at JTF I have simply provided sources from various sites which support my understanding of Jewish principles.
I really object to this portrayal of myself as thinking I am holier than others, that I am more righteous than others, etc. I have had my fair number of failures in life and have been able, Baruch Hashem, to pick myself up from each of these set-backs. I have found that my Emmunah has helped me during many times in my life, even before I came to do teshuva.
My only intention is to instill Jewish pride and interest in the ideas which our sages and commentators have given us to any Jew who needs some strength. I also try to urge Jews to try to keep the mitzvot which set us apart from the nations {such as Kashrut, such as Tefillin & TzitTzit, etc.}.
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Eh Massa cant even stand up to me , he has to resort to passive aggressive posts directed at me indicating he has some kind of psychosis or something.
Its kinda funny when he gets attacked by me he gets so oh "Im so innocent and never provoke" ,which is quite humorous to me. I used to think he was at least a man , but all really does he is get his panties in a bunch , I mean common the best he can do is call me black or a "punk"?? :::D
Again, I have no problem with Massas nonsense he writes on this forum , It gives us a chance to debate on what Kahansiim really represents, and its not massah twisted ideas as there is no way he is a kahanist Jew with what he writes. Thats my problem with him, and if he finds that offensive then debate me and not run to others and complain like a little girl. But we all know what massa does when he is loosing a debate he goes on to his little dark humor place shuts down talks about banning and gives up???? take a look for yourself s. Pitiful.
There is nothing wrong with being being a secular Zionist if thats what you represent yourself as but Massa represents himself as a Kahanist and I wont stand for that slander , we have enough Beni Brits in the world and those Jewish leaders were the leading catalysts for the Holocaust
NEVER AGAIN!
If my views of Kahane are wrong then explain why. I have read all his books.
Masssa can dish it but cant take it. and he talks about hypocrisy. Who is the punk now?
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Well Muman, you reacted quite strongly to his supposed "comparison" of Miley cyrus etc with Judaism (I think you missed the entire point of what he was saying about that), and said "Shame on you." And this was right after he was called Hitler by someone else on the forum. So yeah, I disagree with how you reacted there. Of course, you can't be blamed for what someone else says, but I see why massuh would perceive that as you "piling on."
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Please read my comment again because it seems you interpreted the exact opposite of what I said about Chabad. I said Chabad people are not like that.
Even some of the reform and conservative Jews that I know like chabad.
OK, my apologies then. I did misunderstand. From what I know of Chabad they are very consistently wonderful Jews. Nobody has a single bad thing to say about them and they don't have anything bad to say about anyone else either. Now, in reference to Massuh's frustrated post and my subsequent comments, the moderator in question who often cites Chabad opinions doesn't demonstrate Chabad behavior. I vividly recall a thread about the Jewish holiday where Jews are supposed to ask one another for forgiveness (pardon my ignorance, I forgot what it is called) where a secular member made a very discouraged-sounding post, and that mod really tore into him for it. Is that something that real Chabad would ever do?
When you say you are "curious," I don't know what you are curious about, muman is trying his best like anyone else, he's just having a dispute with a few members here apparently.
At some point the question must be asked why so many people are rubbed the wrong way by him, and/or why he is so easily offended by such a wide range of posts himself that it comes to fighting. We all know how he feels about Christianity, so to give a different recent example, he got uppity about a response I made in his thread about the Nazi Roger Waters (the old rock star) having it out with the Nazi Abraham Foxman (of the ADL). I said that while they are both scum of the earth Abe Foxman and the ADL are more dangerous than some stoner has-been musician. Even Ron, who I am constantly butting heads with, agreed with the assertion, and Chaim had to step in and spell out just how evil and dangerous the ADL is.
Now, I'm not in any way always in agreement with Massuh, but I think his hurt feelings in this thread were very justified.
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When you say you are "curious," I don't know what you are curious about, muman is trying his best like anyone else, he's just having a dispute with a few members here apparently.
At some point the question must be asked why so many people are rubbed the wrong way by him,
Some people are rubbed the wrong way by you too, DBR, and I'm not asking any questions about that!
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Some people are rubbed the wrong way by you too, DBR, and I'm not asking any questions about that!
*sigh* fine, fair enough, but if you have a problem with me, you can always "bring it", either here or over PM, and I will either agree that you have a point or defend myself. If you want to take issue with me (let's say my recent Miley Cyrus threads), then, well, what can I say--a few people were critical of them but I didn't rip into them, although I think it was easy enough for them not to click on them to begin with. I do still believe with all my heart that Cyrus and kin are more dangerous to the souls of young girls than Obama, Buchanan, etc.
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YOU'RE A SLIMEY KIKE MAMZER, CHAI.
F_C_k you!
PIECE OF C-k SUCKING SCHEISSE, ALONG WITH YOUR MOTHER!
Ok guys, I've just been reading silently but i cant stay silent anymore. Clearly you two have differences of opinion and that's fine. the world was not meant to have everyone think the same. Maybe Chai should not have called you "worse than Hitler" its definitely not a nice thing to say but its NOT a blatant racial slur, sexual slur, or deride your mother. i understand that you are angry and feel attacked but i personally do not think its right to EVER resort to such language. And really "F_C_k you ... along with your mother!" ??? is this 7th grade??? and I know Muman and you clearly don't see eye to eye but saying "I was Jewish while you were still screwing up your life marrying outside the tribe." ?? Look people fall in love, sure its not ideal in the eyes of Judaism but it happens and giving someone crap for being Ba'al teshuva is wrong. If I am correct, deriding converts and BTs is a pretty big sin...
I'm not Jewish but i have a love for Judaism and have considered conversion but seeing Jews fighting with each other instead of working together makes me sad because with much of the world already against you the most important thing is to stand together.
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Are we trying to mend the problems or are we trying to continue them.
I really don't know what I said which rubbed Massuh the wrong way. I suppose that I did not defend Massuh against the 'worse than hitler' claim. Certainly I do not have the opinion that Massuh is worse than Hitler but I do feel that Massuh is often saying very controversial things here against what we consider normative Judaism {what I mean is Orthodox observance of Judaism}. I do not attack him with name-calling or belittle his beliefs. I often try to bring sources which are considered authoritative within the Jewish community {i.e. Talmud, Shulchan Aruch, Commentators such as Rashi & Rambam, etc.}.
I am very upset that this has erupted to this level of machlokes/conflict. Until the last two days I had a very high opinion of Massuh and his writing. He still strikes me as very intelligent and well-read with a good grasp of history. What I find a problem with is that every religious discussion with him ends up devolving into an attack on what he perceives as people acting 'Holier than thou' and intolerant of differences. I am very tolerant of people with differences and I co-exist with people of all kinds of backgrounds {so long as they respect my background}.
And as to my perceived dislike of Christianity.. I have stated what I think is the Jewish idea concerning Jews following any beliefs which are not considered normative for Jews. I simply rebuke them {tell them that they are wrong according to my understanding} and let them make their own decisions. That is what I am supposed to do according to Torah, so that I will not bear their sins. I would hope that if I state something which is against Jewish halacha that someone will point it out to me. I will not be angry with them and I will take their rebuke with the intention of trying to understand where I made an error.
I do not speak for Chabad. I do have a lot of connections with Chabad and know personally several very good Chabad Rabbis. I sure hope people have not made their mind up about Chabad based on my behavior because I am not a spokesman for them and I would not want to misrepresent them.
When will we be able to achieve our goals? Why do we spend so much effort just fighting between ourselves. Some people post things which I find completely ridiculous such as the posts about Eminem and Miley Cirus, etc. There are so many celebrities which can be complained about it is really dumb, in my opinion, to pick out this one or that one. Should JTF become the place to go for celebrity gossip? I really don't want that to happen. I try to avoid celebrity gossip every day and go out of my way to avoid getting involved with such pettiness. There are entire publications devoted to gossiping about the misdeeds of celebrities...
Let us reflect upon what we can each do to improve the JTF experience. There was a time when I looked forward to coming to JTF to talk with my friends and co-religionists but recently we have had so much infighting that I wake up each morning with a fear of what will blow up here between JTF members.
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I do feel that Massuh is often saying very controversial things here against what we consider normative Judaism {what I mean is Orthodox observance of Judaism}
You don't think that perpetuating the idea that Native Americans are descended from Jews (which is the dogma of the Mormon polytheistic cult) is against normative Judaism?
What I find a problem with is that every religious discussion with him ends up devolving into an attack on what he perceives as people acting 'Holier than thou' and intolerant of differences.
You don't ever question why many members seem to pick up on this "holier than thou" attitude? Tell me, why did you rip into Muck DeFuslims or Secularbeliever (I forgot which one of those it was) for his post in the asking-of-forgiveness thread?
I simply rebuke them {tell them that they are wrong according to my understanding} and let them make their own decisions. That is what I am supposed to do according to Torah, so that I will not bear their sins.
"Rebuke us"? LOL. We are sorry we have been bad little children. I didn't know that it was your job and mission in life to go out and missionize to us, and I really didn't know that G-d will hold you accountable for not trying hard enough to convert us. Nonetheless, you have already tried this many times and most of us are quite fine with our beliefs... you think I am beating a dead horse with Miley Cyrus and Eminem, but you don't think you are with your own constant preaching (to members who are not even Jewish) and ramblings about "idolatry"?
I do not speak for Chabad. I do have a lot of connections with Chabad and know personally several very good Chabad Rabbis. I sure hope people have not made their mind up about Chabad based on my behavior because I am not a spokesman for them and I would not want to misrepresent them.
I like Chabad Jews very much. That's all I will say.
Some people post things which I find completely ridiculous such as the posts about Eminem and Miley Cirus, etc. There are so many celebrities which can be complained about it is really dumb, in my opinion, to pick out this one or that one. Should JTF become the place to go for celebrity gossip? I really don't want that to happen. I try to avoid celebrity gossip every day and go out of my way to avoid getting involved with such pettiness. There are entire publications devoted to gossiping about the misdeeds of celebrities...
And you don't think your Roger Waters thread was at the level of celebrity nonsense? You have an interesting definition of which threads are worthy and which aren't, and it seems like the sole determining factor is whether or not you make them.
Let us reflect upon what we can each do to improve the JTF experience. There was a time when I looked forward to coming to JTF to talk with my friends and co-religionists but recently we have had so much infighting that I wake up each morning with a fear of what will blow up here between JTF members.
If that is genuinely your position, it might be useful to spend some time before the mirror. I am sure you will point out that I can't possibly understand this as a Gentile, but most of the people who have issues with what you write at JTF are fellow Jews.
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DBF,
I dont want to get into it with you. You are not a Jew and I have no business rebuking you. I really dont care what you think about Judaism.
Regarding this topic... Yes, I have heard several normative Orthodox Rabbis discuss the fact that there is some evidence that Jews came across the ocean before Columbus and may have established trading ports here in America. There is nothing against Judaism with this and this is why Tamar Yonah who is a religious Jew in Israel posted this on her blog on IsraelNationalNews. If you have a problem with that then go complain to the Rabbis and other Jewish scientists who have suggested this. I am not the one who invented this and it has nothing to do with Moron religions...
My thread about Roger Waters was less concerned with RW himself {as I have said many times I have a feeling from Pink Floyd lyrics that the band is anti-zionist and antisemitic}... The reason I posted that post was I was surprised that ADL said something about it. When ADL does do something proper I don't have a problem saying so, and when it does wrong {as you are quick to point out} I also say it is wrong and hope that ADL will change.
I examine each and every thing I write and say. I don't think I have done anything wrong against anyone here. I do not bear a grudge and look forward to being able to forgive and ask for forgiveness from my fellow. If you are attempting to give me advice DBF, thank you... If your intention is truly to bring peace that is a noble thing...
http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2005/08/the_trail_of_te_1.html
http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/society/jewish_world/the_cherokee_connection.aspx?id=9625&language=english
http://www.jewishmag.com/142mag/mordecai_manuel_noah/mordecai_manuel_noah.htm
http://www.moshiach.com/tribes/ns/6.html
But I am coming to the conclusion that this is an urban myth at this point.
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Yea, I think its time for me to move on to Hebrew forums only if no one stands up for Judaism here except Chaim ben Pesach and David ben Moshe whom I grew up watching.
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Yea, I think its time for me to move on to Hebrew forums only if no one stands up for Judaism here except Chaim ben Pesach and David ben Moshe whom I grew up watching.
Who is "not standing up for Judaism"?
Right now I can think of only a couple of current members who have bashed or denigrated Judaism, and they haven't posted in this thread as far as I can see.
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Im surprised people arent standing up against Massah better I say that.
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Some people are rubbed the wrong way by you too, DBR, and I'm not asking any questions about that!
*sigh* fine, fair enough, but if you have a problem with me, you can always "bring it", either here or over PM, and I will either agree that you have a point or defend myself. If you want to take issue with me (let's say my recent Miley Cyrus threads), then, well, what can I say--a few people were critical of them but I didn't rip into them, although I think it was easy enough for them not to click on them to begin with. I do still believe with all my heart that Cyrus and kin are more dangerous to the souls of young girls than Obama, Buchanan, etc.
I'm afraid you might have misunderstood me. I don't have a problem with you DBF, but it's readily apparent at times that others here do! And that doesn't make me curious of you or them.
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Yea, I think its time for me to move on to Hebrew forums only if no one stands up for Judaism here except Chaim ben Pesach and David ben Moshe whom I grew up watching.
Hey dude, I'm all for standing up for Judaism, but in my book that doesn't mean calling someone worse than Hitler!
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Im surprised people arent standing up against Massah better I say that.
i don't take anything he says seriously...he is more of a comic relief..don't mind him.
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I'm afraid you might have misunderstood me. I don't have a problem with you DBF, but it's readily apparent at times that others here do! And that doesn't make me curious of you or them.
I never thought you had a problem with me; "you" was meant more in the third-person than literally. It meant everyone.
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Meh , once in a while he gets lucky and gets in some good dry humor , but mostly its childish , esp for a 60 something year old man, its sad a 20 something like me has to say that.
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I'm afraid you might have misunderstood me. I don't have a problem with you DBF, but it's readily apparent at times that others here do! And that doesn't make me curious of you or them.
I never thought you had a problem with me; "you" was meant more in the third-person than literally. It meant everyone.
Oh , I see. Yeah I mean there is a guy you've been arguing with lately and it's pretty funny.
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Meh , once in a while he gets lucky and gets in some good dry humor , but mostly its childish , esp for a 60 something year old man, its sad a 20 something like me has to say that.
Chai,
Come on... Back off a little. I do believe more respect is due. Massuh is not evil and I know his intentions are good. It does not help that you are being so stubborn about this. I request that you please stop disrespecting Massuh. Everyone has different experiences in life and we should not be judgmental like this. As I stated concerning judging others, Pirkie Avot teaches that we should not judge another Jew unless we have stood in their 'shoes'.
I will reproduce the quote block I posted in the Torah section in order for us to learn from this wisdom:
Pirkie Avot
Mishnah 1:6
Joshua the son of Perachia and Nitai the Arbelite received from them. Joshua the son of Perachia would say: Assume for yourself a master, acquire for yourself a friend, and judge every man to the side of merit.
Mishnah 1:8
Judah the son of Tabbai and Shimon the son of Shotach received from them. Judah the son of Tabbai would say: When sitting in judgement, do not act as a counselor-at-law. When the litigants stand before you, consider them both guilty; and when they leave your courtroom, having accepted the judgement, regard them as equally righteous.
Mishnah 2:4
...
Hillel would say: Do not separate yourself from the community. Do not believe in yourself until the day you die. Do not judge your fellow until you have stood in his place. Do not say something that is not readily understood in the belief that it will ultimately be understood [or: Do not say something that ought not to be heard even in the strictest confidence, for ultimately it will be heard]. And do not say "When I free myself of my concerns, I will study,'' for perhaps you will never free yourself.
Mishnah 3:15
All is foreseen, and freedom of choice is granted. The world is judged with goodness, but in accordance with the amount of man's positive deeds.
Mishnah 4:7
His son, Rabbi Ishmael would say: One who refrains from serving as a judge avoids hatred, thievery and false oaths. One who frivolously hands down rulings is a fool, wicked and arrogant.
Mishnah 4:8
He would also say: Do not judge on your own, for there is none qualified to judge alone, only the One. And do not say, "You must accept my view," for this is their [the majority's] right, not yours.
So I will say again... Let us not demean each other in public. We have some very rotten enemies such as the recent "Saint El Sayyid Nosair" who posted some very vile pictures of dead Jews and loved the picture of the assassination of our beloved Rabbi. How can we fight between brothers when our enemies are laughing?
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I'm not. I just don't think he has the right idea so I let him know. He offends me with how he views Judaism... what respect for Massachusetts lol he insults you too and I'm the bad guy??lol
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Muman, there is no connection to Native Americans or Jews, Jews did not visit America previous to Columbus and any rational person will agree. The only Jews with even slight traces of Native blood are those who either took Native wives or husbands (which there are some), they converted, or they came to South America and mixed with local populations due to the caste system. Even marriage between Jews with North American Indians was and still is extremely rare. I don't know a single person with Jewish and Native American ancestry or even a halfblood. The Natives either mixed with British, Scottish, or Irish descendants or they stuck with their own. Even black and native american mixture was rare and almost non existent, for some reason a lot of blacks think they have Cherokee ancestors when DNA proved that wrong. There are fewer North American Indians than what people think, a lot of people in registered tribes aren't full blooded and there are a lot of frauds running around nowadays like churchill.
The only Jews that would have even a slight amount of Mongoloid admixture would be the Chinese Jews or possibly some of the Russian Jews if they mixed with the Mongoloid population.
Claiming the Cherokee have Jewish ancestry is silly, if they had Jewish ancestry, they would follow our customs, speak our language, and preserve some sort of identity and they do not. These claims of Hebrew and Cherokee being related is false and the words have no meaning, Tsalagi language bears no resemblance to Semitic languages, it doesn't even bear a resemblance to Asian languages. It's like claiming Australoids are Jewish, they are a completely different group of people and while some want to claim they are related to Siberians, even if they are, 20,000 years of separation changes DNA a LOT.
Try posting this on powwows.com or mytribalspace and see what kind of response you get, they are as Jewish as a kosher ham sandwich.
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I'm not. I just don't think he has the right idea so I let him know. He offends me with how he views Judaism
Chai,
As I said before, I do believe you have good intentions also. But I will bring up one last item. You point out that you believe Massuh is old. I am sure you have heard the Jewish ideas concerning giving respect to your elders. I am getting up there in years myself {I am going to be 46 in January}.
Here are some Talmudic sources to support the tradition of respect of elders.
http://www.webshas.org/chesed/zaken.htm
Respectful Behavior
Not stepping before one who is greater: Megillah 28a
Standing up for an elder who is not learned: Kiddushin 32b-33a, 33a
Standing up before a non-Jewish elder: Kiddushin 33a
Standing up while the elder is still at a distance: Kiddushin 32b, 33a
Standing up in a bathroom or bathhouse: Kiddushin 32b, 33a
Whether one must spend money for this show of respect: Kiddushin 32b, 33a
Pretending that one doesn't see the elder: Kiddushin 32b, 33a
The responsibility of an elder to keep from burdening others by walking by them when it isn't necessary: Kiddushin 32b, 33a, 33b
From Sichos In English site @ http://www.sichosinenglish.org/essays/67.htm
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In fact this is alluded to in the Fifth Commandment: "Honor your father and mother so that your days may be lengthened upon the earth that the L-rd your G-d gives you." If you want your own days lengthened, in respected and useful contribution to society, then honor and respect your own elders now.
That one of the first Ten Commandments given to the Jewish People at Mt. Sinai, and engraved upon the Two Tablets of stone, is respect for elders, is a mark of its prominent place in the Torah. The Torah viewpoint on this is totally opposite to that of modern society. Longevity and old age are considered in the Torah one of the greatest possible blessings. "Many years bring wisdom" (Iyov 32 : 7), says the Biblical verse. "The older elderly scholars get, the more settled their minds become," says the Talmud (End Kinnim). Members of the Sanhedrin (Jewish Supreme Court and governing body during the Biblical and Mishnaic eras) would normally have to be aged over seventy. The Torah (Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 244:1) tells us to rise before old people aged seventy or older, even if they are not Torah-scholars, out of respect "for the trials and tribulations they have undergone" ( Talmud Kiddushin 33a) .
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Well, I think everyone gets my drift so I will leave it at that...
Thank you for your consideration Chai. May we let this issue pass...
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Muman, there is no connection to Native Americans or Jews, Jews did not visit America previous to Columbus and any rational person will agree. The only Jews with even slight traces of Native blood are those who either took Native wives or husbands (which there are some), they converted, or they came to South America and mixed with local populations due to the caste system. Even marriage between Jews with North American Indians was and still is extremely rare. I don't know a single person with Jewish and Native American ancestry or even a halfblood. The Natives either mixed with British, Scottish, or Irish descendants or they stuck with their own. Even black and native american mixture was rare and almost non existent, for some reason a lot of blacks think they have Cherokee ancestors when DNA proved that wrong. There are fewer North American Indians than what people think, a lot of people in registered tribes aren't full blooded and there are a lot of frauds running around nowadays like churchill.
The only Jews that would have even a slight amount of Mongoloid admixture would be the Chinese Jews or possibly some of the Russian Jews if they mixed with the Mongoloid population.
Claiming the Cherokee have Jewish ancestry is silly, if they had Jewish ancestry, they would follow our customs, speak our language, and preserve some sort of identity and they do not. These claims of Hebrew and Cherokee being related is false and the words have no meaning, Tsalagi language bears no resemblance to Semitic languages, it doesn't even bear a resemblance to Asian languages. It's like claiming Australoids are Jewish, they are a completely different group of people and while some want to claim they are related to Siberians, even if they are, 20,000 years of separation changes DNA a LOT.
Try posting this on powwows.com or mytribalspace and see what kind of response you get, they are as Jewish as a kosher ham sandwich.
Once again, I am sorry if I posted something which has been disproven. I only posted it because I have heard this from some Rabbis and it was just posted on Tamar Yonahs blog and radio show. Im sorry if this may confuse people. I do not want to spread sheker.
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Is there anything even remotely Native-looking in Jews?
The vast majority of the world's Jews are of various Caucasian nationalities with trace amounts of Middle Eastern blood in them (except for Mizrachi who have much more). But even the darkest, 100% purely Middle Eastern Jew doesn't remotely resemble an Indian.
I don't know who Tamar Yonah is but I have to question whether or not she has been getting whipped up by the LDS' current propaganda blitz.
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I think I noticed some of their ads on Zootube. I think Mormonism is very destructive so I hate to see people falling into that mindset. It's bad enough you have Glenn Beck giving it such a high profile. The men in Mormonism basically believe that they're going to be gods of their own planet. The women believe that they get to be eternal breeders who pop out baby after baby, and they won't get to be eternal breeding goddesses unless they're married to a Mormon man.
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בס''ד
Once again, I urge an end to all of the personal insults here. There is no reason and no excuse for these personal attacks. Chai and Massa, please put aside this sinat chinam (needless hatred). Even if someone writes something foolish or hateful, that is no reason to pour gasoline on the fire by responding with more hateful invective. I appeal to you to stop this for the good of the movement.
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I think I noticed some of their ads on Zootube. I think Mormonism is very destructive so I hate to see people falling into that mindset. It's bad enough you have Glenn Beck giving it such a high profile. The men in Mormonism basically believe that they're going to be gods of their own planet. The women believe that they get to be eternal breeders who pop out baby after baby, and they won't get to be eternal breeding goddesses unless they're married to a Mormon man.
If Tamar Yonah has fallen into that, to any extent, I really feel sorry for her.
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I think I noticed some of their ads on Zootube. I think Mormonism is very destructive so I hate to see people falling into that mindset. It's bad enough you have Glenn Beck giving it such a high profile. The men in Mormonism basically believe that they're going to be gods of their own planet. The women believe that they get to be eternal breeders who pop out baby after baby, and they won't get to be eternal breeding goddesses unless they're married to a Mormon man.
If Tamar Yonah has fallen into that, to any extent, I really feel sorry for her.
This has nothing to do with Mormonism, as I have said many times in this thread. There are some Rabbis who have been telling this story.
I don't believe everything I hear from Tamars show.
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The Mormon Church (LDS) should not be underestimated. It has a global reach and is enormously wealthy, fanatically devoted to conversion and brainwashing. As far as I am concerned it is the non-violent version of Islam. Salt Lake City (the Mormon Vatican) has virtually every institution under the sun--a Mormon "scientific research" department, an archaeology department, and so on and so on. It is very, very conceivable for some LDS "scientists", without revealing their true identities, to have contacted some gullible rabbis, schmoozed them up, and gotten them to sign off on their wacky idea.
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Why is the Mormon Church the equivalent of Islam?
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Why is the Mormon Church the equivalent of Islam?
At one time, they did practice jihad. Joseph Smith (ys) routinely ambushed non-Mormon wagon trains out west and/or ordered his followers, such as Brigham Young to do so. Even today, in its non-violent sense, it is like Islam in that it aggressively seeks to establish itself as the sole true religion on earth and wants to establish a theocracy, even if by peaceful means.
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Dr. Brennan Fan, I really disagree with this comparison. Most Mormons are very good people. They do not commit 'Jihad' against anyone. Anyway, how are you? What part of the US are you in?
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Dr. Brennan Fan, I really disagree with this comparison. Most Mormons are very good people. They do not commit 'Jihad' against anyone. Anyway, how are you? What part of the US are you in?
They destroy families though. I've also thought before that they have quite a bit in common with Islam minus the violence. JWs are worse than Mormons in my opinion because they cause people to die with their crazy superstitions about blood. However Mormons still cut family off from each other, fill people with a lot of super strange ideas, etc. To have the arrogance to think that you can be like God is one of the worst sins in my opinion.
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Dr. Brennan Fan, I really disagree with this comparison. Most Mormons are very good people. They do not commit 'Jihad' against anyone. Anyway, how are you? What part of the US are you in?
I don't disagree that many individual Mormons are really good people. And I said that they are no longer violent. Still, I think their religion is crazy and constitutes a cult.
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They destroy families though. I've also thought before that they have quite a bit in common with Islam minus the violence. JWs are worse than Mormons in my opinion because they cause people to die with their crazy superstitions about blood. However Mormons still cut family off from each other, fill people with a lot of super strange ideas, etc. To have the arrogance to think that you can be like G-d is one of the worst sins in my opinion.
Some Mormons even engage in outright sorcery when they attempt to "baptize the dead" (into the Mormon church). To complete this ritual, they cast spells of necromancy.
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DBF I had no idea about that. That's really creepy!