JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: muman613 on November 29, 2010, 02:30:59 PM
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While looking through the wikileaks documents I came across a discussion between Israeli FM Lieberman and a Russian FM by the name of Lavrov.... In that discussion the Russian FM asked Lieberman that Israel not recognize a thing called 'Holodomor'. I had never heard of it before {at least referred to by this name}.
Well, of course it is relevant to me... It turns out Holodomor is Ukrainian for "death by hunger". It is the name given to the Genocide carried out by the Soviets against the Ukrainians during the second world war (Spring 1932-1933). During this man-made famine between 8-10 million died.
What caught my attention was that the 1st place that this famine hit was in my families origin, in the city of Uman.
WikiLeak which refers to Holodomor : http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2009/06/09MOSCOW1488.html
¶13. (C) Lavrov raised Russian concern with "historical revisionism" regarding the Soviet Era and Second World War, which, he said, was particularly acute in Eastern Europe but was also present in Israel. He cited Israel's official recognition of the Holodomor, the 1930s famine that occurred in Ukraine. Lieberman explained that by recognizing this tragedy, Israel had not said Russia was guilty of causing it, nor that it was an act of genocide.
WikiPedia discussing Holodomor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Conservative estimates of the total number of deaths within Soviet Ukraine in 1933 go as low as 2.6 million.[5][not in citation given] Although some claims account for up to 10 million fatalities or more, others, including agencies in Ukraine,[6] agree that the death toll of the famine was under 8 million[citation needed]. However, the demographic deficit caused by unborn or unrecorded births allows for total net losses to be as high as 10 million.
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The first reports of mass malnutrition and deaths from starvation emerged from two urban areas of Uman, reported in January 1933 by the Vinnytsya and Kiev oblasts. By mid-January 1933 there were reports about mass “difficulties” with food in urban areas, which had been undersupplied through the rationing system, and deaths from starvation among people who were withdrawn from the rationing supply. This was to comply with the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine Decree December 1932. By the beginning of February 1933, according to reports from local authorities and Ukrainian GPU, the most affected area was Dnipropetrovsk Oblast, which also suffered from epidemics of typhus and malaria. Odessa and Kiev oblasts were second and third, respectively. By mid-March, most reports originated from Kiev Oblast.
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Yes it appears to be Stalins Bolshevik genocide of Ukrainians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
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Wow, never knew about that. So the Soviets engineered a holocaust of their own. Interesting.
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This was not an ethnic genocide. Besides Ukrainians, it affected Russians, Russian-speaking Ukrainians, and also Kazakhs. This map shows the death tolls and you can see that nationalistic western Ukraine is less affected than more pro-Russian eastern Ukraine and the Donbas region.
The reason Ukraine was hardest hit was because it was the breadbasket of the Russian Empire and later the Soviet Union.
It was targeted at a socioeconomic class of people rather than an ethnic group, and there is some debate as to how intentional it was.
(http://teachingpoint.com/WebText/Images/Holodomor_Famine_map.jpg)
(http://media.stratfor.com/mmf/9/9/991f4161bdc96f0c1c3d3352e840ce1c5949b1a3.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kazakhstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kazakhstan)
From 1929 to 1934, during the period when Soviet leader Joseph Stalin was trying to collectivize agriculture, Kazakhstan endured repeated famines, similar to the Holodomor[2] in Ukraine, for which it may have provided a model,[3] because peasants had slaughtered their livestock in protest against Soviet agricultural policy.[4] In that period, over a million Kazakhs[5] and 80 percent of the republic's livestock died. Thousands more Kazakhs tried to escape to China, although most starved in the attempt. Conquest says that the application of party theory to the Kazakhs, and to a lesser extent to the other nomad peoples, amounted economically to the imposition by force of an untried stereotype on a functioning social order, with disastrous results. And in human terms it meant death and suffering proportionally even greater than in the Ukraine [6]
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http://www.day.kiev.ua/151228/
Why did Stalin exterminate the Ukrainians?
By Stanislav KULCHYTSKY, Ph.D. (History)
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It was targeted at a socioeconomic class of people rather than an ethnic group, and there is some debate as to how intentional it was or not.<<
My understanding was that it was Stalin's punishment for the resistance to collectivization of farms. I seemed to remember many Kossacks died in that famine.
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http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/mdzikovs/golod.html
The Great Famine in Ukraine
Ubelievably emaciated bodies on the streets. All food taken away. People, all of the same nationality, dying horrible slow death from starvation. No one knows the exact number of dead, but the estimates range between 4 and 10 million victims. Does this sound familiar? Something like that happened during World War II to Jews. This horrible crime was called "Holocaust", and is rightly recognised and remembered as one of the worst atrocities of the war, directed at eliminating a nation.
But something like that happened earlier. In 1932-1933, Stalin was dissatisfied with Ukraine. People didn't want to give up their individual property in favour of collective farms. So a "solution" was found. All food was taken away from villages, by force. People trying to hide even small amounts of food were arrested and sent to labour camps. Trains were monitored so that peasants could not leave. 7 million dead is probably a good guess, though no one will know for sure. In Ukraine, these years are known as "Holodomor" - "slow killing by starvation". It has been called a Ukrainian Holocaust, a genocide.
This is a story as told to me by my grandmother, who was a survivor of Holodomor. "The hunger was horrible. There was nothing to eat, and it was a bad crop year, so you could not even find mushrooms or berries in the forest. Hunger is the worst at first, but after a while something happens, and it feels like you don't want to eat anymore, even if you desperately need it. We had nothing to eat. We gathered some of the things we owned and walked/hitchhiked with my elder sister to Moscow region. We exchanged it for flour and walked back". That was around 900 km distance. My grandmother was 14 at a time, and that trip saved their lives.
The story continues. "One day an old man came near our house. He was so very thin. He begged for some food. Our mother took pity on him. She told him to eat only a little, because if you eat too much too fast, your stomach will seize and you may die. But he was so hungry, he could not stop, and he got sick and died quickly."
The people who survived joined the collective farms the next year. In many areas in the eastern Ukraine the population was so decimated that many new people had to be moved in, mostly from Russia, and that region remains primarily Russian speaking to this day.
Regretfully, this crime of Stalin regime is much less known abroad. Recently, Ukraine commemorated the victims, and started a campain to get the artificial famine 1932-33 internationally recognised as a genocide.
These sites give more history and statistics about Holodomor.
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Are you serious you've never heard about it? primary issue regarding Communist genodicalism. Anyway I couldn't care less about Nazi Cossacks who murdered Jews like ants before and at the time of the Nazis.
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Are you serious you've never heard about it? primary issue regarding Communist genodicalism. Anyway I couldn't care less about Nazi Cossacks who murdered Jews like ants before and at the time of the Nazis.
I've really never once heard the term "holodomor" - they don't teach it in American schools I guess...
And yeah, I knew there was murder, but enforced mass starvation through engineered famine? I don't know I guess they just didn't teach it!
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On second thought, I'd think there's some church music there, so I won't post it.
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Thanks for the link.
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Yes, many Ukrainians and Russians were Nazis, but Stalin (ys) didn't murder them in an act of righteous judgment. Stalin was a Jew-butchering Nazi himself. Of course the Nazis that were slowly starved to death in the Holodomor got everything they deserved.
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Yes, many Ukrainians and Russians were Nazis, but Stalin (ys) didn't murder them in an act of righteous judgment. Stalin was a Jew-butchering Nazi himself. Of course the Nazis that were slowly starved to death in the Holodomor got everything they deserved.
All were. maybe less than 0.1% weren't.
And yes, Stalin was a well-known Nazi just like all Commies are.
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I just thank Hashem that my family left Uman in the late 1890-1900s about 30 years before this came down...
Both sides of my family would have been wiped out in this period... My mothers side from Poland, my fathers from Ukraine...
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Of course, I knew all about this. I certainly hope that "Babi Yar" rings a bell with most of you. Anyway, I was in Barnes and Noble yesterday looking over books in the "New Non-Fiction" section and there's a new book out about this very thing. Sorry, but I don't remember the name of the book. I'll go back tomorrow or the next day and get the name.
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The Holodomore certainly qualifies as a genocide by my book. It was basically a continuation of the Soviet policy of planned extermination by famine of independent farmers in Russia in the 1920s (when the Ukraine was independent country out of the Soviet reach).
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All were. maybe less than 0.1% weren't.
The Soviet genocide targeted Russians/Ukrainians that were suspected of being anti-Communist, or of being middle-class. Soviet Jews, and those Soviet Gentiles that weren't anti-Semites, were disproportionately likely to be both. I can guarantee you that thousands of Jews were murdered in the Holodomor. Also what about minorities such as the Mennonites, who like Jews were persecuted horribly by all sides and had nothing to do with Bolshevism or pogroms?
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All were. maybe less than 0.1% weren't.
The Soviet genocide targeted Russians/Ukrainians that were suspected of being anti-Communist, or of being middle-class. Soviet Jews, and those Soviet Gentiles that weren't anti-Semites, were disproportionately likely to be both. I can guarantee you that thousands of Jews were murdered in the Holodomor. Also what about minorities such as the Mennonites, who like Jews were persecuted horribly by all sides and had nothing to do with Bolshevism or pogroms?
This is true and Stalin that Stalinist pig had plans to murder all the Jews.Ithink just before he died that bastard alcholic
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The Soviet genocide targeted Russians/Ukrainians that were suspected of being anti-Communist, or of being middle-class. Soviet Jews, and those Soviet Gentiles that weren't anti-Semites, were disproportionately likely to be both. I can guarantee you that thousands of Jews were murdered in the Holodomor.
What are you illitereate? I agreed that Stalin was a Nazi pig - my own grand-grandfather was murdered by Stalin because he was Jewish in 1942.
During his reign in the Soviet Union, millions of Jews were murdered physically (including the ones he sent to the gas chambers during his alliance with Nazi Germany, the Jews of Poland he sent to the German gas chambers, the Jews in the German-occupied Soviet lands he let the Germans to butcher, the Jewish Holocaust survivors he sent to Gulags and thus to death, etc etc etc) and the number of the Jews he succeeded in murdering spiritually is beyond statistics, because it influences us to this day. Stalin, months before his death, planned to round up the entire Soviet Jewry using civilian Cossack pogroms and slaughter us all. Thank G-d, that untermensch CommuNazi goblin died before he suceeded.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Soviet-Nazi-officers.jpg)
Commie NKVD butchers greet Nazi SS murderers
during transfer of Polish Jews to Germans
But I couldn't care less about the Nazi Russians (Belorussians included), Ukranians, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estnonians and Muslims that Nazi wiped out. Communism was only the start of their punishment for what they have done to the Jews.
Also what about minorities such as the Mennonites, who like Jews were persecuted horribly by all sides and had nothing to do with Bolshevism or pogroms?
These Nazis joined the Nazi soldiers when they conquered the Ukraine and ran away when they were smashed back by the Red Army in 1943-1944.
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No, I acknowledged what you wrote Ron about Stalin. I agree that lots of these people were Nazis, although I don't think the percentage was as high as for Arabs and the like.
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All were. maybe less than 0.1% weren't.
The Soviet genocide targeted Russians/Ukrainians that were suspected of being anti-Communist, or of being middle-class. Soviet Jews, and those Soviet Gentiles that weren't anti-Semites, were disproportionately likely to be both. I can guarantee you that thousands of Jews were murdered in the Holodomor. Also what about minorities such as the Mennonites, who like Jews were persecuted horribly by all sides and had nothing to do with Bolshevism or pogroms?
That was known as the Doctors Plot. They were going to blame Jewish Doctors for trying to poison Stalin and send all the Jews to Siberia. Thank G-d Stalin died before the plan got off the ground.
This is true and Stalin that Stalinist pig had plans to murder all the Jews.Ithink just before he died that bastard alcholic
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Lots of poisonous stuff here. Nobody can justify Ukrainian antisemitism and pogroms by Cossacks in the days of Khmelnytsky or the more recent ones in the 19th and 20th centuries. But it's pretty sick to somehow use this ugly history to justify the deaths of millions of people (yes, children among them) who had nothing to do with pogroms. Do you really not feel any pity for these (deliberately) starved children?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iIgGzjVNEAk/SIIErO0ZUvI/AAAAAAAAA20/IB-HN7CJZ8U/s400/Ukraine-famine-holodomor.JPG)
(http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/h/ho/holodomor2.jpg)
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What is this Jihad you're waging for the nation that has murdered more Jews than Islam and Rome combined?
The Ukranian nation has celeberated on Jewish blood for centuries and murdered millions. You say they're not responsible? let them prove that! because of the Holocaust they have been comitting against Jews THEY should prove their innocence and not the other way around. Same goes with Germany. Both nations prove to always remain the same Nazi monsters every generation. WHY would anybody who's not a sworn Nazi have pitty for these monsters?
The Holodomor was really nothing compared to what the Ukranian nation deserves and will get in the World to Come.
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What is this Jihad you're waging for the nation that has murdered more Jews than Islam and Rome combined?
The Ukranian nation has celeberated on Jewish blood for centuries and murdered millions. You say they're not responsible? let them prove that! because of the Holocaust they have been comitting against Jews THEY should prove their innocence and not the other way around. Same goes with Germany. Both nations prove to always remain the same Nazi monsters every generation. WHY would anybody who's not a sworn Nazi have pitty for these monsters?
The Holodomor was really nothing compared to what the Ukranian nation deserves and will get in the World to Come.
You have no human love in you. Do you think those toddlers were engaged in pogroms?
Btw, if you think random Ukrainian or German children deserve suffering and death because of what their ancestors may have done, then I am done with you. You're the only Nazi here. It's the Nazis who won in your case, because they managed to make a Jew like you, who supposedly upholds "Thou shalt not kill", into someone lusting for the deaths of thousands of children of his enemies.
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Children do grow up to be adults eventually.
If there was a huge disease epidemic in gaza right now (or famine to make it a closer parallel) and 80% of the population of arabs there died off, I wouldn't feel bad for them at all and I would be glad to see an evil enemy nation dying off. Would you feel bad for them? And of course children wouldn't be immune, nor would adults, to such an epidemic.
I think Ron is basically speaking along the same lines with Ukrainians. Yeah, sucks for individuals, but the rotten deeds of their fathers and countrymen brought about their destruction as the only way to fix society. I understand that line of thinking.
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Many innocents died in this. I am not happy for their deaths.
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What is this Jihad you're waging for the nation that has murdered more Jews than Islam and Rome combined?
The Ukranian nation has celeberated on Jewish blood for centuries and murdered millions. You say they're not responsible? let them prove that! because of the Holocaust they have been comitting against Jews THEY should prove their innocence and not the other way around. Same goes with Germany. Both nations prove to always remain the same Nazi monsters every generation. WHY would anybody who's not a sworn Nazi have pitty for these monsters?
The Holodomor was really nothing compared to what the Ukranian nation deserves and will get in the World to Come.
You have no human love in you. Do you think those toddlers were engaged in pogroms?
Btw, if you think random Ukrainian or German children deserve suffering and death because of what their ancestors may have done, then I am done with you. You're the only Nazi here. It's the Nazis who won in your case, because they managed to make a Jew like you, who supposedly upholds "Thou shalt not kill", into someone lusting for the deaths of thousands of children of his enemies.
(http://www.lostlibertycafe.com/images/adolfchild.jpg)
Ohh look what a sweet toddler! his name is Adolphie Hitler!
"Random" does not exist in war. The children of today will be the murderous terrorists/pogromists of tommorow as their fathers are today. It's called Din Rodef.
When Saul had mercy on the weak, mercy-begging, helpless Amalekite King Agag he lost his rule and died in a battle against the Phillistines. One of his descendants was the ancient Persian Hitler Haman - this is how we paid for Saul's mercy upon the cruel as you cruel little Nazi suggest here. What G-d commands us to do was done by the Prophet Samuel when he came and slaughtered the worthless Amalekite into pieces.
You're the Nazi who spits on the memory of milllions of Jews who were murdered by the Nazi Ukranians and the Nazi Germans and defends their murderers. You say the Jews of today and the Jews of the days of the Holoacust who were TOSSED AND SHOT, BURNT, BUTCHERED AND GASSED by these same children who joined Nazi Germany's "Crusade against Jewish Bolshevism" once the Nazis occupied the Ukraine have and had to be murdered just because their murderers were once children. You say these Nazis didn't deserve to die?! They deserved much more for what they done to the Jewish people!
Btw, it's not "Thou shalt not kill" - it's "you shall not murder". Killing is a general word with neutral connotation . Murder is what your lovers did to my people. Revenge is what I will bring upon you, G-d willing.
O LORD, Thou G-d to whom vengeance belongeth, Thou G-d to whom vengeance belongeth, shine forth.
Because nothing is more Jewish than the holy principle of revenge. אֵל נְקָמוֹת ה' אֵל נְקָמוֹת הוֹפִיַע...
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Many innocents died in this. I am not happy for their deaths.
Muman, these pogromists butchered your own ancestors and brothers. Why are you betraying their memory and blood?
Let the Jews who have mercy for these Nazis spend one hour with them so they will understand what self-hating insanity and Ukranian Nazi "innocence" really are.
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And with that, I leave this forum, permanently. I don't support the deaths of the children of my worst enemies. And that's the difference between my faith and yours.
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Many innocents died in this. I am not happy for their deaths.
Muman, these pogromists butchered your own ancestors and brothers. Why are you betraying their memory and blood?
Let the Jews who have mercy for these Nazis spend one hour with them so they will understand what self-hating insanity and Ukranian Nazi "innocence" really are.
Who do you withhold mercy on and who do you not? Are you saying that righteous Jews were not killed in the genocide of the famine? Did the famine only affect the bad Jews and not the good ones? I am not sure what you are referring to...
I certainly despise those who were involved in the pogroms of the Ukraine. Many times I relate the story of the Massacre of Uman. But I don't understand how this is related to the man-made famine of the Holodomor. Maybe my understanding of history of this period is lacking. Can I read something which will explain what you are saying?
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Many innocents died in this. I am not happy for their deaths.
Muman, these pogromists butchered your own ancestors and brothers. Why are you betraying their memory and blood?
Let the Jews who have mercy for these Nazis spend one hour with them so they will understand what self-hating insanity and Ukranian Nazi "innocence" really are.
Who do you withhold mercy on and who do you not? Are you saying that righteous Jews were not killed in the genocide of the famine? Did the famine only affect the bad Jews and not the good ones? I am not sure what you are referring to...
I certainly despise those who were involved in the pogroms of the Ukraine. Many times I relate the story of the Massacre of Uman. But I don't understand how this is related to the man-made famine of the Holodomor. Maybe my understanding of history of this period is lacking. Can I read something which will explain what you are saying?
I meant the Ukranian Nazis of course, not our Jews.
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And with that, I leave this forum, permanently. I don't support the deaths of the children of my worst enemies. And that's the difference between my faith and yours.
Your faith (Russian Orthodox Christianity?) murdered our children when they were in the belly of their pregnant mothers. You cossak sub-human.
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And with that, I leave this forum, permanently. I don't support the deaths of the children of my worst enemies. And that's the difference between my faith and yours.
Sox7,
I am sorry you feel so upset as to have to leave. I think you do not understand that there are times when we must be prepared to see the children of our enemies die. I know it is hard to comprehend, but when we deal with enemies like Amalek we have no other choice than to kill all of them, because if we do not we will once again be threatened. This is the sad lesson of Amalek and one which I have learned against my will.
In a perfect world we would all get along. And the world of Moshiach will be such a world. But today we deal with enemies which teach their children about killing Jews. Now I have never heard anyone, Rabbi Kahane included ever suggest we indoctrinate our children with arab hatred. But our enemies are propagandizing, and they are denying history, and they are turning the world against us. If we do not utterly destroy the enemy he will rise again and confront us even stronger.
Believe me, what I write does not make me happy. But my brother was a victim of the terror attacks on 9/11 and I now understand that the terrorists who killed my brother also killed our beloved Rabbi Kahane. These terrorists are attempting to spread Islam across the world, by scaring us, and killing us, and driving the Jews out of Israel.
Now I know I have not addressed the Holodomor... And I really do not understand the circumstances. At this time I do not think that it was deserved for the children to suffer. Everyone here doesn't have to agree all the time, and we can learn from each other.
Please leave open the idea that sometimes we need to resort to measures which may seem unpleasant. Judaism is not all peace and love...
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Some attempt at an ethnic breakdown of casualties in the Holodomor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
According to estimates[70] about 81.3% of the famine victims in Ukrainian SRR were ethnic Ukrainians, 4.5% Russians, 1.4% Jews and 1.1% were Poles. Many Belarusians, Hungarians, Volga Germans and other nationalities became victims as well. The Ukrainian rural population was the hardest hit by the Holodomor. Since the peasantry constituted a demographic backbone of the Ukrainian nation,[73] the tragedy deeply affected the Ukrainians for many years.
Doing the math indicates maybe ~112,000-140,000 Jews died...
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And with that, I leave this forum, permanently. I don't support the deaths of the children of my worst enemies. And that's the difference between my faith and yours.
Your faith (Russian Orthodox Christianity?) murdered our children when they were in the belly of their pregnant mothers. You cossak sub-human.
My faith is Christian, neither Orthodox nor Catholic. And I'm not Russian or Ukrainian, I'm a Serb American. And my own compatriots had babies ripped out of their pregnant women during WWII and other times in history.
My grandmother's first husband was a Jew murdered by the Nazis. Her brother was killed by Muslim Nazi-collaborators.
My grandfather, her second husband, survived a Nazi execution attempt in WWII and a Bulgarian massacre attempt in WWI (all the rest of the village was killed, he was 5 years old). He lost his brother and sister in WWI.
So Jews don't have a monopoly on suffering. No religious or ethnic group does. Remember that.
And you know what? The anger I feel for the unpunished persecution against my people would never allow me to want any innocent person of my enemies, let alone a child, to be harmed. I don't desire revenge in this life on the children or cousins or grandchildren of the murderers. I want justice and that will come from G-d alone at the final judgment.
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And with that, I leave this forum, permanently. I don't support the deaths of the children of my worst enemies. And that's the difference between my faith and yours.
Your faith (Russian Orthodox Christianity?) murdered our children when they were in the belly of their pregnant mothers. You cossak sub-human.
My faith is Christian, neither Orthodox nor Catholic. And I'm not Russian or Ukrainian, I'm a Serb American. And my own compatriots had babies ripped out of their pregnant women during WWII and other times in history.
My grandmother's first husband was a Jew murdered by the Nazis. Her brother was killed by Muslim Nazi-collaborators.
My grandfather, her second husband, survived a Nazi execution attempt in WWII and a Bulgarian massacre attempt in WWI (all the rest of the village was killed, he was 5 years old). He lost his brother and sister in WWI.
So Jews don't have a monopoly on suffering. No religious or ethnic group does. Remember that.
And you know what? The anger I feel for the unpunished persecution against my people would never allow me to want any innocent person of my enemies, let alone a child, to be harmed. I don't desire revenge in this life on the children or cousins or grandchildren of the murderers. I want justice and that will come from G-d alone at the final judgment.
Yes, and turn the other cheek foolishness.
This is not the Jewish way. We have been persecuted as a people for 1000s of years, longer than the Serbs... And yet we still survive... You know why? Because we are commanded to remember what was done to us, and by who it was done. True vengeance is Hashems, but we must do our part too. We are commanded to kill someone who comes to kill us. And we also can see that our enemy uses its children as weapons against us.
In order for the Jewish nation to survive it must be smart, not nice...
BTW, may I say I feel sorry for your family having been persecuted like that. I know it must be very hurtfull, as it is to me concerning how my family was persecuted.
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And with that, I leave this forum, permanently. I don't support the deaths of the children of my worst enemies. And that's the difference between my faith and yours.
It's sad that you feel you have to "leave the forum" because you disagree with some members about something, but don't expect anyone here to beg you to come crawling back. You can feel free to post here just as you always did. And you can feel free not to, just as always. Your choice. IMO you are making the wrong choice by "leaving."