JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: wonga66 on December 04, 2010, 04:01:10 PM
-
As usual, Ovadiya Yosef, the arch fanner of flames, and of whom we Kahanists are no fans ourselves, drives the Moderdox and secularists spare with his Theoditic pronouncements, although sometimes he may have a point (Kahanist IL MK Michael ben Ari says that no Theodicy is involved: the fires are a result of pure human terroristic Ishamelitic free-will malace):
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=197988
Ovadia Yosef: Fires only happen where Shabbat is desecrated
Shas Council of Torah Sages Head Rabbi Ovadia Yosef said on Saturday night that the devastating Carmel fire was a result of insufficient Shabbat observance in the area.
“Fires only happen in a place where Shabbat is desecrated,” he quoted from the Babylonian Talmud Shabbat tractate in his weekly sermon. “Homes were ruined," he continued, "entire neighborhoods wiped out, and it is not arbitrary. It is all divine providence.”
“We must repent, keep Shabbat appropriately. When the People of Israel repent, G-d safeguards them with a wall of fire,” but not of the incinerating type, Yosef added.
(http://mondoweiss.net/images/2010/11/shas.jpg)
-
And meanwhile the Muslims have their own Theoditic explanation: "It's Allah punishing Israel for occupying Allah-given Palestinian Lands"!http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=197963
-
Could you have at least found a better picture? ...............
-
Doesn't ROY have anything to say about the fact that it was caused by A-RABS?
-
I hear what he's saying. Everything comes from Hashem.
-
Doesn't ROY have anything to say about the fact that it was caused by A-RABS?
Too hard to write Rav Ovadiya Yosef? What is this belittling of a Rabbi?
In Judaism, everything comes from Hashem, both good and bad (everything is for good, eventually), the quesetion is for what purpose and for what sin did we get this punishment. I don't think it's the desecration of the Shabbat. I agree with Chaim on this issue.
-
You're a truly disgusting sub-human.
-
What are you implying by the skull on your avatar having peyos above Islamic scimitars, Ronald?
-
Well then why not say, they have to hunt down and kill the Arabs that did this?
-
Too hard to write Rav Ovadiya Yosef? What is this belittling of a Rabbi?
In Judaism, everything comes from Hashem, both good and bad (everything is for good, eventually), the quesetion is for what purpose and for what sin did we get this punishment. I don't think it's the desecration of the Shabbat. I agree with Chaim on this issue.
Ron, it's just an abbreviation. The reason why most JTFers are concerned about Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is because his halacha always seems to agree with what the Israeli government wants to do, and often seems to concide with major federal funding of Shas schools and institutions. It is not cursing or attacking him to ask why that is.
The view that you just stated is very similar to the Christian doctrine of Calvinism; are you sure that that is the position of all Torah Judaism? I believe that there are many different theories of the action of G-d's will in Judaism.
-
You know, this is what I was asking Chaim about on one of my Ask JTF questions.
If it's all G-d's will, then what is the point of fighting back against these murderous Arab cockroaches, since you would be fighting Hashem's will?
-
I hear what he's saying. Everything comes from Hashem.
But this happened also to a religious kibbutz!
-
Did the rabbi forget that a religious kibbutz was hit by this fire?
Or did his handlers hide that information from him like the crooks that they are always trying to promote themselves and their agenda?
-
I hear what he's saying. Everything comes from Hashem.
But this happened also to a religious kibbutz!
to Communist Capitalists? ::)
-
What are you implying by the skull on your avatar having peyos above Islamic scimitars, Ronald?
See, you can't read Hebrew :laugh:
-
My observation is this.... Whether you like the Rabbi or not... Did he speak the truth?
I looked in Talmud Masechet Shabbat for the portion he discusses. I found it
Shabbat Masechet 119b
http://halakhah.com/shabbath/shabbath_119.html#PARTb
I will quote the relevant section and the surrounding context below:
R. Joshua b. Levi said: He who responds, 'Amen, May His great Name be blessed,' with all his might, his decreed sentence12 is torn up, as it is said, When retribution was annulled13 in Israel, For that the people offered themselves willingly, Bless ye the Lord:14 why when retribution was annulled'? Because they blessed the Lord. R. Hiyya b. Abba said in R. Johanan's name: Even if he has a taint of idolatry, he is forgiven: it is written here, 'when retribution was annulled [bifroa' pera'oth]'; whilst elsewhere it is written, And Moses saw that the people were broken loose [parua']; for Aaron had let them loose.15
Resh Lakish said: He who responds 'Amen' with all his might, has the gates of Paradise opened for him, as it is written, Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth truth [shomer emunim] may enter in:16 read not 'shomer emunim' but 'she'omrim amen' [that say, amen]. What does 'amen' mean? — Said R. Hanina: God, faithful King.17
Rab Judah son of R. Samuel said in Rab's name: An [outbreak of] fire occurs only in a place where there is desecration of the Sabbath, for it is said, But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day and not to bear a burden … then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.18 What does 'and it shall not be quenched' mean? — Said R. Nahman b. Isaac: At the time when no people are available to quench it.
Abaye said: Jerusalem was destroyed only because the Sabbath was desecrated therein, as it is said, and they have hid their eyes from My sabbaths, therefore I am profaned among them.19
It seems that the Rabbi was correct in saying that fire comes when the Sabbath is desecrated. I do not profess to know the ways that Hashem works, but I do believe that the Chazal and the Rabbis of the Talmud knew what they were talking about...
-
Well then why not say, they have to hunt down and kill the Arabs that did this?
Where's the contradiction?
-
I hear what he's saying. Everything comes from Hashem.
But this happened also to a religious kibbutz!
to Communist Capitalists? ::)
Oh so all kibbutznikim are evil even if they have are chozer b'teshuvah. ron it seems like you label every single group as evil except yourself!
Moreover, it's besides the point. The only relevant point here is if they are shomer shabbat or not. There certainly do exist shomer shabbat kibbutznikim. And A7 described this place as religious kibbutz. They wouldn't call it that if they weren't shomer shabbat. So this wacked out "THEORY" is clearly WRONG since the fire also happened to people who DO NOT desecrate shabbat.
of course we also know that druze are not obligated in shabbat laws, but that brings us to the obvious problem with this so-called Theory - we know the ACTUAL reason this started, because of terrorist druze who set the freaking fires!
-
btw, guess which minister was in charge of Israel's firefighting services and resources?
Wait for it...
Yup, you guessed it -
Minister of Interior ELI YISHAI lead politician of $ha$
Could there possibly have been an agenda behind this so-called theory? Oh gee, I just don't know...
-
This isn't Yishai fault he asked for more money for fire fighting but they only gave him a pittance.In any event this problem goes back 20 yrs
-
What are you implying by the skull on your avatar having peyos above Islamic scimitars, Ronald?
See, you can't read Hebrew
Of course I can read Hebrew, "Hill Top Youth" -luvva.
But what does your ominous Totenkopf avatar actually mean?
(http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2902;type=avatar)
The Death's Head symbology is generally used by murderous goyim, like pirates, the SS and the Light Brigade, & is very unheimish, Ronald!
-
I hear what he's saying. Everything comes from Hashem.
But this happened also to a religious kibbutz!
to Communist Capitalists? ::)
Oh so all kibbutznikim are evil even if they have are chozer b'teshuvah. ron it seems like you label every single group as evil except yourself!
Moreover, it's besides the point. The only relevant point here is if they are shomer shabbat or not. There certainly do exist shomer shabbat kibbutznikim. And A7 described this place as religious kibbutz. They wouldn't call it that if they weren't shomer shabbat. So this wacked out "THEORY" is clearly WRONG since the fire also happened to people who DO NOT desecrate shabbat.
of course we also know that druze are not obligated in shabbat laws, but that brings us to the obvious problem with this so-called Theory - we know the ACTUAL reason this started, because of terrorist druze who set the freaking fires!
We will never know the reason... Only Hashem knows....EVERYTHING comes from Hashem....There is no sense in trying to figure out the reason for this.....
-
My biggest problem with the viewpoint that blames the current Israeli fire on Sabbath desecration is that one should only look for supernatural explanations, when no logical natural explanation, exists that can easily explain the tragedy.
In this case, when we have evil Gentiles in the land of Israel, who the Torah commands us to expel and they are actively involved in arson and terrorism on a continuing basis while the government of Israel including Rabbi Ovadia Yosef usually ignores this biblical commandment; it is no wonder, that from time to time, these evil Gentiles will succeed in causing great damage.
And I should add that not only Gentiles who actively commit terror are considered evil, but also those that are merely happy about the Terror that others commit against Jews, or support theft, idol worship, immorality, attacks against Judaism etc.
-
I hear what he's saying. Everything comes from Hashem.
But this happened also to a religious kibbutz!
to Communist Capitalists? ::)
Oh so all kibbutznikim are evil even if they have are chozer b'teshuvah. ron it seems like you label every single group as evil except yourself!
Moreover, it's besides the point. The only relevant point here is if they are shomer shabbat or not. There certainly do exist shomer shabbat kibbutznikim. And A7 described this place as religious kibbutz. They wouldn't call it that if they weren't shomer shabbat. So this wacked out "THEORY" is clearly WRONG since the fire also happened to people who DO NOT desecrate shabbat.
of course we also know that druze are not obligated in shabbat laws, but that brings us to the obvious problem with this so-called Theory - we know the ACTUAL reason this started, because of terrorist druze who set the freaking fires!
We will never know the reason... Only Hashem knows....EVERYTHING comes from Hashem....There is no sense in trying to figure out the reason for this.....
When terrorists light a fire and try to burn down the country, how is there any question as to the reason it happened?
It's not like some easterly wind came and started a fire.
Terrorists tried to burn the country down. That is the reason. Where is the mystery here?
-
My biggest problem with the viewpoint that blames the current Israeli fire on Sabbath desecration is that one should only look for supernatural explanations, when no logical natural explanation, exists that can easily explain the tragedy.
In this case, when we have evil Gentiles in the land of Israel, who the Torah commands us to expel and they are actively involved in arson and terrorism on a continuing basis while the government of Israel including Rabbi Ovadia Yosef usually ignores this biblical commandment; it is no wonder, that from time to time, these evil Gentiles will succeed in causing great damage.
And I should add that not only Gentiles who actively commit terror are considered evil, but also those that are merely happy about the Terror that others commit against Jews, or support theft, idol worship, immorality, attacks against Judaism etc.
Agree. Good point.
-
Could you have at least found a better picture? ...............
I thought it was a perfect choice
-
I just posted pictures of it raining in Jerusalem today.
-
I just posted pictures of it raining in Jerusalem today.
Hey I saw those in another thread, great pics! Did you take those pictures hanna?
Thank God it's raining in Israel, they need it.
-
Chaim has already explained what the fire was, a warning call from G-d.
-
According to the Talmud every great natural disaster is a warning sign from Hashem.
That portion which I posted from Shabbat 119 lists several other opinions as to what tragedies will occur for various transgressions.
I believe that there is a Pirkie Avot on this topic also... I will list the relevant portion:
Pirkie Avot Chapter 5 Mishahs 8-9
8. Seven types of retribution come to the world, for seven types of sin. When some tithe and others don't, a hunger caused by turmoil ensues: some are hungry, others have their fill of food. When all are unanimous in their failure to tithe, a hunger by drought ensues. For not separating chalah, an annihilating hunger results.
Plagues come to the world for those capital crimes mentioned in the Torah that have not been given over to the court, and for desecrating the produce of the sabbatical year.
The sword comes to the world for the procrastination of justice, the corruption of justice, and because of those who misinterpret the Torah.
9. Carnage by wild beasts comes to the world for false oaths and the desecration of G-d's name.
Exile comes to the world for idol-worship, sexual promiscuity, murder and the failure to leave the land fallow on the sabbatical year.
There are four time-periods when plagues increase: on the fourth and seventh years [of the sabbatical cycle], on the year following the seventh, and following the festivals of each year. On the fourth year, because of [the neglect of] the tithe to the poor that must be given on the third year; on the seventh, because of the tithe to the poor that must be given on the sixth; on the year after the seventh, because of the produce of the sabbatical year; and following each festival, because of the robbing of the poor of the gifts due to them.
http://torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter5-10.html
http://torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter5-11.html
-
And the Midrash Shir Hashirim 2:5 even refers to a fire near Haifa as being a sign of impending Redemption!
-
And the Midrash Shir Hashirim 2:5 even refers to a fire near Haifa as being a sign of impending Redemption!
Oh good let me go sell all my food supply.
-
This fire was not a natural disaster but arab terrorism. It was a muslim-made disaster.
but, whatever way round you count it, the muslims still have to pay.