JTF.ORG Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mord on April 14, 2011, 05:43:24 AM

Title: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: mord on April 14, 2011, 05:43:24 AM: http://www.forward.com/articles/137017/

video with above link

Inside the student center, the tables were set with all of the Passover staples: bitter herbs, haroset, parsley sprigs and salt water, a Haggadah at each place setting. By 6:15 on a recent Friday evening, the hall had filled up with college and graduate students, alumni, faculty and a smattering of “townies” — more than 160 people in total. It was a scene reminiscent of the Seders that so many Jewish campus centers host at Passover time.

But this was no Hillel-sponsored event, a fact that would become apparent as soon as the invocation was given “in the name of Jesus Christ.” Rather, this Seder was hosted by Brigham Young University, the flagship school of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Seders have become a tradition at BYU, where nearly 99% of its 33,000 students identify as Mormon, and where, according to a university spokeswoman, there are only three Jewish students.

This year, BYU is sponsoring seven springtime Seders. Each of them is capped at 165 people, and all are sold-out affairs with long waiting lists, said Victor Ludlow, a BYU religion professor who has been organizing campus Seders for almost four decades.

“I do so many of these here,” Ludlow said, “that the Salt Lake rabbi — we were on a radio program together for the Easter-Passover season — said: ‘Professor Ludlow, here, I call him the Passover Patriarch of Provo. He does more Seders than anyone I know, except, maybe, Elijah.’”
Related

   * My Name is Apostle Lev
   * Booths, Tabernacles, Tents and Huts: Naming the Sukkah
   * Mormon’s Jewish Outreach Aims To Rebuild Bridges

At two recent Seders, which Ludlow led from behind a podium draped in an Israeli flag, the professor explained the symbolism of the Seder plate and the afikomen, guided the youngest guest through an English translation of the Four Questions, and asked attendees to read aloud the story of the Israelites’ epic journey from slavery to freedom. Ludlow had everyone alternately rapt and roaring with laughter. He peppered his explanations with anecdotes about getting matzo and peanut butter sandwiches stuck to the roof of his mouth, and how, some years back, one shrewd young Seder guest, in exchange for handing over the afikomen, convinced her grandparents to take her with them to Hawaii.

Ludlow’s version of “Dayenu” included all of the customary lyrics — about the parting of the sea, the manna from heaven, the giving of the Torah — in addition to some with unique significance to the BYU community: “Had He scattered us among the nations, but not gathered us in the Rocky Mountains, dayenu; had He gathered us in the Rocky Mountains, but not given us Latter-Day Temples of our own, dayenu; had He given us Latter-Day Temples of our own, but not given us a special university, dayenu; had He given us a special university, but not a mighty basketball team, dayenu.”

Then there was the eating of the salt water-dipped parsley, the tasting of the bitter herbs — first-timers could be seen wincing and reaching for their water glasses — and the building of “Hillel sandwiches,” out of matzo, horseradish and haroset. And, finally, more than two hours after the Seder began, a chicken-and-latke dinner was served.

Most of those in attendance were participating in a Seder for the first time, though several local families said that these Passover meals have become a springtime tradition. The vast majority of guests were Mormons, but some of them touted their Jewish roots — sharing stories of their own conversion, or how their parents or grandparents had joined the Church years ago.

“My grandfather was a Jewish convert to Mormonism,” said Ryan Caplin, a 21-year-old BYU freshman, who came to the Seder with his parents, two of his siblings and their respective spouses. “I wanted to learn more about my heritage, because it’s interesting — and because, even though I’m not Jewish, it still applies.”

After the meal, Ludlow had Seder-goers participate in a series of responsive readings, rise in anticipation of greeting the prophet Elijah, and sing along to a soulful rendition of the Passover classic “Who Knows One?” It was all very traditional, even if the Manischewitz was nowhere to be found, since Mormons strictly eschew alcohol; the carafes were filled with grape juice.

In many ways, BYU is a typical college: Students cram for exams, fill the football stadium for home games and eat pizza late into the night. In other ways, though, the school sets itself apart: Those enrolled must adhere to a strict honor code that demands they abstain from using profanity, drinking coffee, tea and alcoholic beverages, engaging in homosexual behavior, and having sex outside of marriage. (The school’s honor code garnered national media attention last month, when star basketball player Brandon Davies was booted from the BYU team, after he reportedly admitted to having sex with his girlfriend.) Men are required to keep their hair closely cropped and are forbidden from growing beards or sporting body piercings; women cannot wear strapless, backless or form-fitting fashions, and are to avoid “extreme” hairstyles and colors.

The genesis of the Passover Seder on this G-Rated campus was Exodus. Specifically, it was a series of lessons that Ludlow was teaching, back in the fall of 1973, on the second of the five books of Moses. “I found that my students had a hard time connecting to The Tanach time period and events,” Ludlow said. “I decided to do it just so they could have a cultural experience, so they could socialize a little bit and identify with that important event of the Bible.”

Since that first gathering happened to coincide with the Yom Kippur War, Ludlow brought with him a small radio so that, during breaks, he could tune in to the latest news about the conflict.

Ludlow, a lifelong Mormon who graduated from BYU and earned his Ph.D. at Brandeis University, has traveled to Israel at least once a year for decades; he sometimes stays for months at a time to teach at BYU’s Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies. He said, however, that attitudes of Mormons toward Israel tend to be more complicated than those of many Evangelical Christians, who are often unflaggingly supportive of Israel.

“As Latter-Day Saints, we believe that the Jews coming to Israel and establishing a state is a fulfillment of prophesy… but that doesn’t necessarily justify the means by which they’re doing it or how they may treat other peoples,” Ludlow, who is critical of the concrete security barrier that Israel has erected, told the Forward.

Watch a video of a Brigham Young University Seder:

But it is the journey to ancient Israel, rather than the politics of modern Israel, that are the focus of Ludlow’s Passover meals.

The first time Ludlow organized a Seder on campus, he said that many of his students asked if they could bring along roommates, friends, family members and significant others. “We made accommodations for that, but the next year the boyfriend, the roommate, the cousin would come back, even if they weren’t a student of mine, and they would want to bring somebody else with them,” he said. “It just kept growing.”

Within a few years, BYU agreed to sponsor the Passover meals, and opened them up to the general public. Soon Ludlow was fielding Seder requests from Mormon wards, or congregations, across the Southwest; this year, he will lead Seders for Mormon crowds in Arizona, Texas, Idaho and nearby Salt Lake City.

Ludlow said he would continue to host campus Seders, even after he retires from academia this spring.

While it has become increasingly common for Christian groups to host Passover Seders — both because of a hunger to connect with Christianity’s Jewish roots and because of the belief that Jesus’ Last Supper may have been a Seder — for Mormons, the ritual meal has additional significance: Many of them identify with the Exodus narrative, given their ancestors’ flight from the Midwest to their own “Promised Land,” in Utah.

For BYU junior Ken Kenworthy, 22, the bitter herbs on the Passover table recall not only the suffering of the Israelites under Pharaoh, but also the past suffering of the Mormons. “Our early church history had a lot of persecution,” Kenworthy said. Mormon pioneers, like the Israelites before them, “sacrificed a lot for faith, and were ultimately willing to make a long journey” to freedom.

Kenworthy, whom Ludlow tapped to lead the musical portions of this year’s campus Seders, said that the Passover story “reinforces my faith in G-d’s ability to work the same yesterday as he does today.”

For freshman Amy Underwood, 18, who this year attended her first-ever Seder, the event’s value was largely its outreach potential. “I think it shows that we’re not just Mormons doing our own thing,” she said. “It shows that we’re open to different cultures.”

The American-born religion, which today claims 14.1 million adherents worldwide, thanks in part to its aggressive missionary work, remains mysterious to many. That may be about to change, with Mormons set to play a prominent role in national politics over the next year. Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney has launched a presidential exploratory committee, while fellow Church member Jon Huntsman Jr., who recently resigned his post as America’s ambassador to China, is also considered a potential candidate for the Republican nomination. Meanwhile, in New York, audiences are getting a satirical take on Mormonism, thanks to the Broadway musical “The Book of Mormon,” which opened last month to rave reviews.

More than 2,000 miles from the Beltway and Broadway, Ludlow said that he hopes his Seders serve not only to bring ancient history to life, but also to debunk cultural stereotypes and break down barriers between the Mormon and Jewish communities. “What we need to do is come to learn about each other as we really are, and this is one of the things that is a little bridge,” he said, noting that Mormons and Jews are increasingly inhabiting the same communities, as more Mormons move East, and Jews move West. “As long as we’re going to start being neighbors and working together on PTA committees, why not understand each other a little before we even meet?”

Read more: http://www.forward.com/articles/137017/#ixzz1JUNRltEW
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Dr. Dan on April 14, 2011, 07:05:25 AM: The saddest part is that these mormons love judaism more than many real jews.

It also shows that written torah alone is not judaism. Look at how many other religions follow our traditions. Oral torah is also a part of jewish tradition.

And yes, I read the bold lettering. What frauds!
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Zelhar on April 14, 2011, 07:35:12 AM: Quote from: Dr. Dan on April 14, 2011, 07:05:25 AM
The saddest part is that these mormons love judaism more than many real jews.

It also shows that written torah alone is not judaism. Look at how many other religions follow our traditions. Oral torah is also a part of jewish tradition.

And yes, I read the bold lettering. What frauds!
No they don't. They pick and chose some Jewish tradition to demonstrate their claim that they are the new or the true children of Israel.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Rubystars on April 14, 2011, 08:39:38 AM: The only thing more stupid than Mormonism is JW or Islam
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Zelhar on April 14, 2011, 02:58:25 PM: BTW, Brigham Young "University" has a campus on mount scopus, Jerusalem.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Lisa on April 14, 2011, 10:49:48 PM: I'm just curious if they try to missionize to Jews, like that Jews for Jesus group, or the Messianics.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: muman613 on April 15, 2011, 01:15:59 AM: SICK SICK SICK!

This is Chillul Hashem! They are violating so many commandments it is not even funny. How they think that this is holy is beyond me!!!

http://www.chabad.org/kids/article_cdo/aid/8778/jewish/Negative-Commandment-127.htm

Quote
Negative Commandment 127
An uncircumcised male is prohibited from eating the Passover sacrifice

Exodus 12:48 "For no uncircumcised person shall eat of it"

An uncircumcised male, any male that did not have a "Brit Milah" is forbidden to eat the Passover sacrifice.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: muman613 on April 15, 2011, 01:22:16 AM: Quote from: Dr. Dan on April 14, 2011, 07:05:25 AM
The saddest part is that these mormons love judaism more than many real jews.

It also shows that written torah alone is not judaism. Look at how many other religions follow our traditions. Oral torah is also a part of jewish tradition.

And yes, I read the bold lettering. What frauds!

Virtually all Jews who identify as Jewish partake in Passover celebration. It is a part of Jewish culture, not only religion..

Maybe you can better define what you mean by 'real Jews'... You know about the four sons, don't you?

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/467945/jewish/The-Educators-Handbook.htm
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: ProJewGreekChristian on April 15, 2011, 04:44:51 AM: Quote from: Rubystars on April 14, 2011, 08:39:38 AM
The only thing more stupid than Mormonism is JW or Islam

Agreed. I must admit, they run a tight ship in Utah. Nevertheless, they are some cookie folks. You should see their WICKED promotion of race mixing on youtube--SICK! They are so proud how they can get nice, pretty, brainwashed blond Mormon women to mate with Samoans and what not--AS LONG AS THEY MAKE "Mormon" BABIES!!! to them, yemach shemum.. not all Mormons though... but to the race-mixing Mormons, yes...
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: mord on April 15, 2011, 04:47:39 AM: Quote from: ProJewGreekChristian on April 15, 2011, 04:44:51 AM
Agreed. I must admit, they run a tight ship in Utah. Nevertheless, they are some cookie folks. You should see their WICKED promotion of race mixing on youtube--SICK! They are so proud how they can get nice, pretty, brainwashed blond Mormon women to mate with Samoans and what not--AS LONG AS THEY MAKE "Mormon" BABIES!!! to them, yemach shemum.. not all Mormons though... but to the race-mixing Mormons, yes...
yes i'v seen the advertisements on youtube
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Dr. Dan on April 15, 2011, 06:08:30 AM: born to a jewish mother

Quote from: muman613 on April 15, 2011, 01:22:16 AM
Virtually all Jews who identify as Jewish partake in Passover celebration. It is a part of Jewish culture, not only religion..

Maybe you can better define what you mean by 'real Jews'... You know about the four sons, don't you?

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/467945/jewish/The-Educators-Handbook.htm
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Rubystars on April 15, 2011, 12:03:34 PM: Quote from: ProJewGreekChristian on April 15, 2011, 04:44:51 AM
Agreed. I must admit, they run a tight ship in Utah. Nevertheless, they are some cookie folks. You should see their WICKED promotion of race mixing on youtube--SICK! They are so proud how they can get nice, pretty, brainwashed blond Mormon women to mate with Samoans and what not--AS LONG AS THEY MAKE "Mormon" BABIES!!! to them, yemach shemum.. not all Mormons though... but to the race-mixing Mormons, yes...

I wasn't even aware of that aspect. I thought they were a mostly white group. Now I think they're even more terrible.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: ProJewGreekChristian on April 16, 2011, 04:47:40 AM: I went to boarding school in Utah. They're very civilized and nice people but are NOT Christian and are cultish, if not an outright cult. Almost all the gang banging somoans in Utah and many of the scvartZas claimed to be Mormons and were imports from the third world; of course, they reverted back to their primitive ways. Bringing these people here is a wicked crime
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Zelhar on April 16, 2011, 02:26:46 PM: Quote from: ProJewGreekChristian on April 16, 2011, 04:47:40 AM
I went to boarding school in Utah. They're very civilized and nice people but are NOT Christian and are cultish, if not an outright cult. Almost all the gang banging somoans in Utah and many of the scvartZas claimed to be Mormons and were imports from the third world; of course, they reverted back to their primitive ways. Bringing these people here is a wicked crime
What is your problem with the Samoans, what have they ever done wrong or evil ? Surely they don't have the jungle mentality that most blacks posses.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: ProJewGreekChristian on April 17, 2011, 01:33:50 AM: Quote from: Zelhar on April 16, 2011, 02:26:46 PM
What is your problem with the Samoans, what have they ever done wrong or evil ? Surely they don't have the jungle mentality that most blacks posses.
nothing to me. and no, they're not the same as blacks. Nevertheless, America is a country primarily for Europeans; of course, there are exceptions (e.g. Asians) But mixing with white women. YES I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, and, although JTF does not agree with this, I could care less how righteous they are, they should keep their hands off white women.

So to recap: I am against importing people from the third world and against watering down the European race, the former of which Mormons ACTIVELY do, the latter, they support and promote.

I'm not saying others are subhuman or less human than Europeans, but don't you think we should be allowed to stay European? or is that racist?
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Rubystars on April 17, 2011, 03:03:24 AM: Quote from: ProJewGreekChristian on April 17, 2011, 01:33:50 AM
although JTF does not agree with this, I could care less how righteous they are, they should keep their hands off white women.

That's how I feel too. I don't like race mixing of white men either but women are worse in some ways because a race proceeds from its women. A white child must come from both a white mother and a white father.

Quote
I'm not saying others are subhuman or less human than Europeans, but don't you think we should be allowed to stay European? or is that racist?

It's not racist but many people won't understand that. It's self-preservation and survival.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: ProJewGreekChristian on April 17, 2011, 03:50:27 AM: Gosh Ruby stars, you are a wonderful woman. I wish more women held the views you do. Are you married? haha

What you say is right on: it's worse for women to mix not because men are sexists pigs who hold double standards but their biological clock only allots them so many babies, and therefrom whitey emanates. So, given the white woman's limitations regarding procreation, if she expends her ovaries on non-whites, even if she wanted to, there would be no time left for white procreation.

Although it''s just as morally repugnant for white men to mix, they could do so and still bring many beautiful white babies into this earth.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Zelhar on April 17, 2011, 05:26:23 AM: Quote from: ProJewGreekChristian on April 17, 2011, 01:33:50 AM
nothing to me. and no, they're not the same as blacks. Nevertheless, America is a country primarily for Europeans; of course, there are exceptions (e.g. Asians) But mixing with white women. YES I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, and, although JTF does not agree with this, I could care less how righteous they are, they should keep their hands off white women.

So to recap: I am against importing people from the third world and against watering down the European race, the former of which Mormons ACTIVELY do, the latter, they support and promote.

I'm not saying others are subhuman or less human than Europeans, but don't you think we should be allowed to stay European? or is that racist?
Samoa which is a tiny pacific Island nation was a colony of European (Germany, UK) and western (USA, New Zealand) countries until the 1960s. American Samoa is an American territory to this day. Do you think American whites has the right to export themselves to Samoa but native Samoans have no right to set foot on America ?

The total global population of Samoans is probably less than 1 million. There are far more Mormons than Samoans. So I actually think that If the Mormons are After the Samoans, trying to mix with them and wipe out their identity than the Samoans are the real victims here.

I do think that rejection of racial mixing is a legitimate principle to hold as a personal choice, But that it wouldn't be right to forbid it by law.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: ProJewGreekChristian on April 17, 2011, 02:05:17 PM: Quote from: Zelhar on April 17, 2011, 05:26:23 AM
I do think that rejection of racial mixing is a legitimate principle to hold as a personal choice, But that it wouldn't be right to forbid it by law.

Well, I disagree it wouldn't be right, at least in certain cases, like making black and white relations forbidden by law but everything else just taboo. Much of the world accepted this principle for a long time.

But, on somoa, assuming what you said is true, you're right that we don't have the right in most cases to do those types of things. But if you've been to Utah, that's one thing that'll catch your eye, all the Samoans. They also import a lot of Kenyans. These people are completely and utterly brought here by Mormons; they did not come here on their own volition, other than they agreed to; the mormons convinced them to come and paid for their tickets, more or less.The idea that the Mormon Church is making it their mission to bring people here is very sick. Now, if decent Samoans wanted to move here since we colonized them, I guess it would be somewhat difficult to reject them from coming here... I don;t know... but mixing with whites after coming here is a different story.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: t_h_j on April 17, 2011, 09:15:24 PM: Quote from: ProJewGreekChristian on April 17, 2011, 01:33:50 AM
nothing to me. and no, they're not the same as blacks. Nevertheless, America is a country primarily for Europeans; of course, there are exceptions (e.g. Asians) But mixing with white women. YES I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, and, although JTF does not agree with this, I could care less how righteous they are, they should keep their hands off white women.

So to recap: I am against importing people from the third world and against watering down the European race, the former of which Mormons ACTIVELY do, the latter, they support and promote.

I'm not saying others are subhuman or less human than Europeans, but don't you think we should be allowed to stay European? or is that racist?

what exactly is the European race?
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Dr. Dan on April 17, 2011, 11:21:57 PM: I disagree with anti race mixing between jews. Jews should marry jews no matter what the race is. I can't speak for other peoples and religions. Those who are against race mixing are entitled to their opinions.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Rubystars on April 17, 2011, 11:50:11 PM: Quote from: Dr. Dan on April 17, 2011, 11:21:57 PM
I disagree with anti race mixing between jews. Jews should marry jews no matter what the race is. I can't speak for other peoples and religions. Those who are against race mixing are entitled to their opinions.

Jews are a special case because they form their own people. Jews are a national identity all to themselves.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Masha on April 18, 2011, 04:44:26 AM: Mormon religion is very weird, and I want no part of it. However, I have been to Utah and Brigham Young campus. They have a very nice art museum there. The students were very nicely and decently dressed, all white. The only thing I didn't like was that they didn't sell coffee on campus. I need my one or two cups of coffee a day.

I was very favorably impressed both by Utah and Brigham Young. I was much more negative about mormonism until I visited Utah and saw what it looked like. Now I am applying the "by their deeds you shall know them" criterion. Mormonism has been around for a while now. And what do we see? Utah looks very prosperous. The prices are low. People are polite. The service is good. It is a real success story in a nation that is falling apart. The Mormons are very entrepreneural, opening a lot of businesses and creating many jobs. They help each other and don't use government handouts. Everyone is nicely dressed, bringing you in mind of the 19th century and how people dressed then. They support and engage in arts, and there are good museums, concert halls, and operas.

So I am reluctant to call them wolves, even though their ways and not my ways.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on April 19, 2011, 06:23:09 PM: Mormonism is insane but many individual Mormons are really wonderful people.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Rubystars on April 19, 2011, 10:19:46 PM: There str still some people with more traditional values:
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/04/08/46-percent-of-mississippi-republicans-want-interracial-marriage/
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: t_h_j on April 20, 2011, 12:04:14 AM: Quote from: Rubystars on April 19, 2011, 10:19:46 PM
There str still some people with more traditional values:
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/04/08/46-percent-of-mississippi-republicans-want-interracial-marriage/

that is foolish. There is no reason to ban marriage between male humans and female humans.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Rubystars on April 21, 2011, 09:16:50 AM: Quote from: t_h_j on April 20, 2011, 12:04:14 AM
that is foolish. There is no reason to ban marriage between male humans and female humans.

I don't think making it illegal again would even be possible because defining 'interracial' would be a legal nightmare. However I think what this poll shows is that there are still a lot of people with traditional values in spite of the massive left wing media campaign.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: t_h_j on April 21, 2011, 11:57:06 AM: Quote from: Rubystars on April 21, 2011, 09:16:50 AM
I don't think making it illegal again would even be possible because defining 'interracial' would be a legal nightmare. However I think what this poll shows is that there are still a lot of people with traditional values in spite of the massive left wing media campaign.

just because something is traditional does not mean that it is good or right. Being against interracial marriage is wrong.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on April 21, 2011, 01:13:01 PM: Quote from: Rubystars on April 17, 2011, 11:50:11 PM
Jews are a special case because they form their own people. Jews are a national identity all to themselves.
So are Christians, read James 2 and Galatians 3:28.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: t_h_j on April 21, 2011, 03:20:33 PM: Quote from: YimachShemoToAmericanhero on April 21, 2011, 01:13:01 PM
So are Christians, read James 2 and Galatians 3:28.

there is no Christian nationality
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on April 21, 2011, 06:48:25 PM: Quote from: t_h_j on April 21, 2011, 03:20:33 PM
there is no Christian nationality
So Christians aren't a distinct and continuous spiritual identity?
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: t_h_j on April 21, 2011, 06:50:49 PM: Quote from: YimachShemoToAmericanhero on April 21, 2011, 06:48:25 PM
So Christians aren't a distinct and continuous spiritual identity?
that depends on the kind of Christian you ask. regardless, any identity that may or may nit exist is not based on race or national identity.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on April 21, 2011, 06:53:57 PM: Quote from: t_h_j on April 21, 2011, 06:50:49 PM
regardless, any identity that may or may nit exist is not based on race or national identity.
Nor is Judaism, it is based on spiritual identity, specifically either conversion or matrilineal descent.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: t_h_j on April 21, 2011, 06:55:45 PM: Quote from: YimachShemoToAmericanhero on April 21, 2011, 06:53:57 PM
Nor is Judaism, it is based on spiritual identity, specifically either conversion or matrilineal descent.

ok. what does that have to do with saying that interracial marriage is wrong?
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on April 21, 2011, 06:57:17 PM: I denied that interracial marriage is wrong; did I not?
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: t_h_j on April 21, 2011, 07:01:20 PM: Quote from: YimachShemoToAmericanhero on April 21, 2011, 06:57:17 PM
I denied that interracial marriage is wrong; did I not?

nope, at least not in this thread.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: ProJewGreekChristian on April 22, 2011, 03:20:14 AM: Quote from: Masha on April 18, 2011, 04:44:26 AM
Mormon religion is very weird, and I want no part of it. However, I have been to Utah and Brigham Young campus. They have a very nice art museum there. The students were very nicely and decently dressed, all white. The only thing I didn't like was that they didn't sell coffee on campus. I need my one or two cups of coffee a day.

I was very favorably impressed both by Utah and Brigham Young. I was much more negative about mormonism until I visited Utah and saw what it looked like. Now I am applying the "by their deeds you shall know them" criterion. Mormonism has been around for a while now. And what do we see? Utah looks very prosperous. The prices are low. People are polite. The service is good. It is a real success story in a nation that is falling apart. The Mormons are very entrepreneural, opening a lot of businesses and creating many jobs. They help each other and don't use government handouts. Everyone is nicely dressed, bringing you in mind of the 19th century and how people dressed then. They support and engage in arts, and there are good museums, concert halls, and operas.

right on... very nice, yet cookie. Wonderful state to raise a family in, however. They "run a tight ship."

Quote from: Rubystars on April 19, 2011, 10:19:46 PM
There str still some people with more traditional values:
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/04/08/46-percent-of-mississippi-republicans-want-interracial-marriage/

You're so right rubystars. Good ole Mississippi is always fighting against the winds of wickedness. Darn, she still incorporates the confederate flag into her state flag. Some of the most intelligent, wonderful people I've meet are from Bama or Mississippi.

------

Interracial marriage is very wrong, by the way. As I've been informed, this is not the case for Jews; but for white cracker gentiles, dating, marrying, and becoming pregnant by or getting preggers a [censored] is FORBIDDEN by... well... common sense?
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: nessuno on April 22, 2011, 06:48:20 AM: Quote from: ProJewGreekChristian on April 22, 2011, 03:20:14 AM
right on... very nice, yet cookie. Wonderful state to raise a family in, however. They "run a tight ship."

You're so right rubystars. Good ole Mississippi is always fighting against the winds of wickedness. Darn, she still incorporates the confederate flag into her state flag. Some of the most intelligent, wonderful people I've meet are from Bama or Mississippi.

------

Interracial marriage is very wrong, by the way. As I've been informed, this is not the case for Jews; but for white cracker gentiles, dating, marrying, and becoming pregnant by or getting preggers a schvartza is FORBIDDEN by... well... common sense?
Yes. It's only a matter of commonsense.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Rubystars on April 22, 2011, 07:26:15 AM: Thanks Bullcat and ProJewGreekChristian, you guys are great. :)

Quote from: ChaimFanFan on April 21, 2011, 01:13:01 PM
So are Christians, read James 2 and Galatians 3:28.

Christianity is designed as a universal type religion that spans nations and peoples while Judaism is designed as being for the Jewish people and discourages conversion. Those who do convert give up much of their former identity or put it on the back burner in favor of the new Jewish identity.

Quote from: t_h_j on April 21, 2011, 11:57:06 AM
Being against interracial marriage is wrong.

We're just going to have to disagree on that one.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: t_h_j on April 22, 2011, 08:19:32 AM: Quote from: Rubystars on April 22, 2011, 07:26:15 AM
Thanks Bullcat and ProJewGreekChristian, you guys are great. :)

Christianity is designed as a universal type religion that spans nations and peoples while Judaism is designed as being for the Jewish people and discourages conversion. Those who do convert give up much of their former identity or put it on the back burner in favor of the new Jewish identity.

We're just going to have to disagree on that one.

why don't you explain why it is wrong?
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: ProJewGreekChristian on April 22, 2011, 12:49:17 PM: Quote from: t_h_j on April 22, 2011, 08:19:32 AM
why don't you explain why it is wrong?

So you think it's perfectly fine for evil Nazi black men to mix in and frolic with white women? You don't think white fathers should have a say about the race of the husband of their daughter(s)?

If so, you're the one with immoral views. That's wrong, that's evil. How selfish of you to care so little about white people. You probably would have joined the self-hating whites and self-hating Jews and marched with that Nazi Martin Luther KOON, huh?
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: ProJewGreekChristian on April 22, 2011, 12:53:58 PM: Quote from: t_h_j on April 20, 2011, 12:04:14 AM
that is foolish. There is no reason to ban marriage between male humans and female humans.

I agree, which is why we should ban it between blacks and whites.

-----

but seriously... what does this mean? we can ban it against horses?
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: t_h_j on April 22, 2011, 02:32:46 PM: Quote from: ProJewGreekChristian on April 22, 2011, 12:49:17 PM
So you think it's perfectly fine for evil Nazi black men to mix in and frolic with white women? You don't think white fathers should have a say about the race of the husband of their daughter(s)?

If so, you're the one with immoral views. That's wrong, that's evil. How selfish of you to care so little about white people. You probably would have joined the self-hating whites and self-hating Jews and marched with that Nazi Martin Luther KOON, huh?

i am the product of an interracial marriage moron. my parents have been married for over 30 years too, i suppose they are evil now?

change your name to proignorancegreekracist
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Rubystars on April 22, 2011, 04:01:24 PM: Quote from: t_h_j on April 22, 2011, 08:19:32 AM
why don't you explain why it is wrong?

It's one of those things you either understand instinctively or don't. I could list reasons, but it wouldn't change your mind.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Rubystars on April 22, 2011, 04:02:49 PM: Quote from: t_h_j on April 22, 2011, 02:32:46 PM
i am the product of an interracial marriage moron. my parents have been married for over 30 years too, i suppose they are evil now?

change your name to proignorancegreekracist

That doesn't make them evil and it doesn't reflect on you in any way at all. I might disagree with that type of choice but that doesn't automatically make someone evil.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: ProJewGreekChristian on April 22, 2011, 05:45:40 PM: Quote from: t_h_j on April 22, 2011, 02:32:46 PM
i am the product of an interracial marriage moron. my parents have been married for over 30 years too, i suppose they are evil now?

change your name to proignorancegreekracist

Oh, how sweet of you..Thanks for the complement..

But, are you a Jew?

is your mother a white woman and your dad a black man? That is the most abominable, given white women today have so few babies and for many other reasons. I'm not racist... are you kidding? If I was, I would be in favor of destroying the various races like your are. I like Asians and think they should stay Asian. I'm not hateful against most races (Arab and Blacks excluded) but do I have to be for race mixing to not be racist? Europeans would be stupid, moreover INSANE, to mix in with other peoples, given Europe's glorious history (save the Jew hatred..). Although Europeans wouldn't be devaluing their identity to mix with Asians, I think they two should remain separate and distinct.

HOWEVER, and this may sound hypocritical, I could care less if the indigenous peoples of Central and South America (typically called by the misnomer "Spanish") mix with blacks, Arabs, or whomever; though, I would implore Asians it's not in their interest to do so...

Like I said and like Rubystars said, we're clearly talking about crackers and gentiles, NOT Jews...
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: t_h_j on April 22, 2011, 06:04:13 PM: Quote from: ProJewGreekChristian on April 22, 2011, 05:45:40 PM
Oh, how sweet of you..Thanks for the complement..

But, are you a Jew?

is your mother a white woman and your dad a black man? That is the most abominable, given white women today have so few babies and for many other reasons. I'm not racist... are you kidding? If I was, I would be in favor of destroying the various races like your are. I like Asians and think they should stay Asian. I'm not hateful against most races (Arab and Blacks excluded) but do I have to be for race mixing to not be racist? Europeans would be stupid, moreover INSANE, to mix in with other peoples, given Europe's glorious history (save the Jew hatred..). Although Europeans wouldn't be devaluing their identity to mix with Asians, I think they two should remain separate and distinct.

HOWEVER, and this may sound hypocritical, I could care less if the indigenous peoples of Central and South America (typically called by the misnomer "Spanish") mix with blacks, Arabs, or whomever; though, I would implore Asians it's not in their interest to do so...

Like I said and like Rubystars said, we're clearly talking about crackers and gentiles, NOT Jews...

nope, i'm not Jewish. And yes, you're a racist, you just said you hated the entire race of blacks. Also, stop treating Europe like its some kind of monolith, i hope you know that it most definately not.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: ProJewGreekChristian on April 23, 2011, 03:26:21 AM: you're the racist, and an evil one to boot. you support those who want to commit genocide against my fellow Europeans! you should be the victim or what you are necessarily wishing onto others! You know whom you're supporting; don't play stupid about how "most blacks are good." You want to exterminate the euro people, clearly.

yes, 99 percent of blacks are evil. I can think of like 4 or 5 that I like and think are good people, though.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Zelhar on April 23, 2011, 12:31:47 PM: On a personal level I don't have anything against inter-racial marriages and I feel fortunate that Judaism sets a rather strict barrier so there couldn't be a situation that 10 million Africans convert en mass and mix with Jews.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Rubystars on April 23, 2011, 02:42:25 PM: Quote from: ProJewGreekChristian on April 23, 2011, 03:26:21 AM
you're the racist, and an evil one to boot. you support those who want to commit genocide against my fellow Europeans! you should be the victim or what you are necessarily wishing onto others! You know whom you're supporting; don't play stupid about how "most blacks are good." You want to exterminate the euro people, clearly.

yes, 99 percent of blacks are evil. I can think of like 4 or 5 that I like and think are good people, though.

Remember we have several biracial members of the forum including technically the leader of the forum, although that last case doesn't really count in my mind because as both his parents were Jewish he certainly comes from only one 'people', and has a very strong sense of identity. Other people on the forum though are truly biracial and we must show the same respect to them that we would to any other human being.

You can't reasonably expect most of these people to be against interracial mixing or to understand what we see from our viewpoint. They will take it as being against them personally or against their parents in a personal way. I think you and I are more concerned about the cumulative effects on a larger scale than that, such as the worldwide decline of white people. I did speak to one white/Asian person once that was against it on the principle of preserving distinct people, but that's a rare exception.

Most people don't really realize there even is a serious danger in whites becoming a minority in the areas they were traditionally the majority or realize that white people are in danger of dying out all together. Some are of the mindset that all 'human beings' are of the same nature and it wouldn't matter even if they did, and don't see why we care so much.

I don't think we need to resort to arguing too much with people who are unable to understand because they will either get it or they won't.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: uzitger on April 26, 2011, 12:19:24 PM: We can thank Teddy Kolek for allowing them to build their missionary center in Yeusahlayim. He knew that they would do and wanted to bring another shmad influence to the Holy City.

What they Mormons do in Utah in their own university is pure foolishness and sorry attempt to usurp the title of the chosen people when they are nothing but a sorry cult. I worked with some Mormons and they are hard working people and are outwardly friendly but are out to missionize the Jewish people.

This behavior is more like Esau's who is likened to a pig who sticks its split hooves out to claim "I'm kosher" while being treif.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: lines on April 26, 2011, 01:48:03 PM: I'm not sure how a threat on mormonism got sidetracked into a thread on inter-racial marriage but I will say my opinion on the matter. If one wants to marry outside ones race or if one wants to marry within ones race those are personal decisions and a person has a right to do either one. A person has a right to have any sort of criteria they want for choosing the person they decide to marry and if they want to make race a factor in who they decide to marry that is their decision.

As far as mormonism goes the book of mormon does say that mormonism is supposed to be offered to both the jews and the gentiles, and so they are out to convert everyone. I don't think they give special attention on converting the jewish people though.
Title: Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Post by: Rubystars on April 26, 2011, 02:23:25 PM: Quote from: lines on April 26, 2011, 01:48:03 PM
I'm not sure how a threat on mormonism got sidetracked into a thread on inter-racial marriage but I will say my opinion on the matter. If one wants to marry outside ones race or if one wants to marry within ones race those are personal decisions and a person has a right to do either one. A person has a right to have any sort of criteria they want for choosing the person they decide to marry and if they want to make race a factor in who they decide to marry that is their decision.

You're right, it is a personal decision. I think that the pros and cons of it should be able to be discussed openly though without people who don't like it being demonized. It seems in modern society only the pros of it are allowed to be discussed (if there are any). If someone says they don't like it or don't want to choose that, they're automatically labeled as someone full of "hate" when that might not be true at all.

Quote
As far as mormonism goes the book of mormon does say that mormonism is supposed to be offered to both the jews and the gentiles, and so they are out to convert everyone. I don't think they give special attention on converting the jewish people though.

Mormons believe some really strange things and are very cult-like in many ways.