JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: The One and Only Mo on December 15, 2011, 05:21:54 PM
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Anybody going to comment? LOL :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D
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I'm glad he's out. It was embarrassing to see a "chasid" do reggae hip hop crap.
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As far as I know he's still a religious Jew. He just decided to shave his beard (it's allowed). And perhaps he is not chassidic anymore I'm not sure ( also allowed).
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As far as I know he's still a religious Jew. He just decided to shave his beard (it's allowed). And perhaps he is not chassidic anymore I'm not sure ( also allowed).
This is what I heard. I will wait and see what he does with his life... I am not going to be judgemental on him just because he shaved. I have had three beards and when I was his age I shaved {for a job}...
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Can somebody fill me in? I hear he shaved but did something else happen? Is it considered a sin for Jews not to have a beard? Chaim never has one and he doesn't have sideburns either.
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Can somebody fill me in? I hear he shaved but did something else happen? Is it considered a sin for Jews not to have a beard? Chaim never has one and he doesn't have sideburns either.
No it is not a sin... But shaving with a razor is prohibited..
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/494236/jewish/Why-dont-chassidic-men-shave.htm
Why don't chassidic men shave their beards?
By Menachem Posner
The Torah1 forbids the "destruction" of specific parts of the beard. The Talmud2 interprets destruction as shaving with a razor.3 This prohibition also includes shaving with any implement which completely removes all the facial hair, but does not include trimming, or shaving with a scissors or other tool which does not provide the smooth shave provided by a razor.4
There are Halachic authorities (including the Tzemach Tzedek, third Chabad Rebbe) who opine that cutting any part of the beard, even without a razor-like implement, falls under the prohibition of cross-dressing.5 This opinion is especially followed by Chabad chassidim.
Maimonides teaches that the reason the Torah forbade the destruction of the beard is because shaving was a practice of ancient idol worshippers.
In addition, Kabbalah attaches great importance to the beard, teaching that the "thirteen locks" of the beard are representative of G‑d's thirteen supernal Attributes of Mercy. Growing a beard makes one a beneficiary of the bounty which originates from G‑d's compassion.
Traditionally, Jews throughout the ages wore beards in order to not even come close to destroying the forbidden parts of their beards. This was also true in Eastern Europe, where the vast majority of Jews grew full beards until the mid nineteenth century.
As the winds of "enlightenment" spread to Eastern Europe, many people felt that wearing a beard labeled them as backwards and old-fashioned. Many Torah leaders, including the Chafetz Chaim, protested this change. Chassidim were in general less swayed by the modernization taking place around them, as is evident in their dress. Therefore, they - for the most part - did not feel compelled to shave their beards. In addition, the Kabbalistic reason mentioned above made the practice of growing a beard much more precious to them.
See also: The Beard
I hope that I've been helpful today.
Yours truly,
Rabbi Menachem Posner
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Can somebody fill me in? I hear he shaved but did something else happen? Is it considered a sin for Jews not to have a beard? Chaim never has one and he doesn't have sideburns either.
In the early JDL days Rabbi Kahane was clean shaven. Generally married men ate supposed to have beards.
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Is it considered a sin for Jews not to have a beard?
No. Like I said, it's allowed. Some people are upset that he shaved though and so people are speculating. Or maybe they are upset that he dropped a certain form of hasidism and adopted another (and now may have subsequently changed again possibly to nonchassidic). People really don't have a right to assume bad things on him though. The speculation came about because he tweeted a grimly lighted photograph of himself beardless out of nowhere, which shocked people. But in his next tweet he said how he went to shul to daven and go to the mikveh that morning. So it is even more egregious of a sin for people to suggest he is breaking the Torah because speculation like that itself is wrong, but here it's quite obviously not true! Anyway, I really like some of his music, especially king without a crown and a few others I can't think of right now.
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No. Like I said, it's allowed. Some people are upset that he shaved though and so people are speculating. Or maybe they are upset that he dropped a certain form of hasidism and adopted another (and now may have subsequently changed again possibly to nonchassidic). People really don't have a right to assume bad things on him though. The speculation came about because he tweeted a grimly lighted photograph of himself beardless out of nowhere, which shocked people. But in his next tweet he said how he went to shul to daven and go to the mikveh that morning. So it is even more egregious of a sin for people to suggest he is breaking the Torah because speculation like that itself is wrong, but here it's quite obviously not true! Anyway, I really like some of his music, especially king without a crown and a few others I can't think of right now.
I agree... I have always said it is up to him to decide what he does with his life. I was a bit shocked by the picture and I at first assumed the worst. But it was said he was still davening and going to the mikveh... I will wait and see what happens...
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Personally I think that it's a pretty big stretch to assume that he has fallen away from G-d just because he has shaved his beard but I don't understand Jewish culture and how that is generally taken so I had to ask about it. But it does recall one time about a decade ago that a friend/mentor wondered if my dying my hair red and black (because I wanted to look like one of my favorite heavy metal artists) signified me walking away from G-d and becoming secular. To this very day I think that was crazy and rather ignorant.
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"On December 13, 2011, Matisyahu posted a beardless picture of himself on Twitter, explaining on his website: "No more Chassidic reggae superstar. Sorry folks, all you get is me…no alias. When I started becoming religious 10 years ago it was a very natural and organic process. It was my choice. My journey to discover my roots and explore Jewish spirituality—not through books but through real life. At a certain point I felt the need to submit to a higher level of religiosity…to move away from my intuition and to accept an ultimate truth. I felt that in order to become a good person I needed rules—lots of them—or else I would somehow fall apart. I am reclaiming myself. Trusting my goodness and my divine mission. Get ready for an amazing year filled with music of rebirth. And for those concerned with my naked face, don’t worry…you haven’t seen the last of my facial hair." Straight from Wikipedia.
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Did not know that. That could mean he has "fallen away" so to speak or merely that his theology and personal relationship with G-d is evolving and becoming more refined. I don't know the man. Thanks for filling me in though; I wonder why nobody had actually posted that before.
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Did not know that. That could mean he has "fallen away" so to speak or merely that his theology and personal relationship with G-d is evolving and becoming more refined. I don't know the man. Thanks for filling me in though; I wonder why nobody had actually posted that before.
I knew about it yesterday thanks to Ron sending me a PM.... But I did not want to speak Lashon Hara so I left it alone...
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In the early JDL days Rabbi Kahane was clean shaven. Generally married men ate supposed to have beards.
(Darn had a long good response that was great but clicked off).
Summary:
Married men don't have to have a beard.
Their are great Rabbis even who do not have beard, as well as great fools that do.
Many people are unfortunately shallow and judge on the outside.
They go to "Mekubalim" just because they have long beards and roll their eyes and do other silly things.
Their are great Rabbis who shave (and that includes the past as well) and the present, and I know of an example of top Rabbi who shaves and has many other Rabbis in his left pocket soo to speak. If you see him on the street you would think of him to be some average Shimon (Average Jewish Joe).
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The woman I share an office with at work, who is an Orthodox Rebbetzin said that religious Jews can only be clean shaven by using an electric razor because it doesn't cut the skin. However, she did say that the men have somehow adjust the blades a certain way.
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As I posted above there is a Torah commandment against using a razor to shave the beard. This is the root of all prohibitions on shaving. As I posted above it is OK to cut the beard using a scissors or other means.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/940320/jewish/Negative-Commandment-44.htm
Shaving
Negative Commandment 44
The 44th prohibition is that we are forbidden from shaving the beard, which has five sections: the upper right jaw, the upper left jaw, the lower right jaw, the lower left jaw, and the chin.
This prohibition is contained in the following expression,1 "Do not destroy the corner of your beard," because all [the parts] are included in the term, "beard." Scripture does not write, "Do not destroy your beard," but, "Do not destroy the corner of your beard," meaning that one may not destroy even one corner from the entire beard.
The Oral Tradition explains that there are five corners, as we have categorized, and that one is punished by five sets of lashes if he shaves them all, even if he shaved them all at once. In the words of the Mishneh,2 "For [shaving] the beard [one receives] five [sets of lashes]: two for one side, two for the other side, and one for the bottom. Rabbi Eliezer says, 'If they were all shaved at once, one receives only one [set of lashes].'" The Talmud3 says, "We see that Rabbi Eliezer holds that it is all one prohibition." This is a clear proof that the first opinion holds that they constitute five separate prohibitions, and that is the law.
This [shaving of the beard] was also4 the practice of the idolatrous priests, as is well known today that among the adornments of the European ascetics5 is that they shave their beards.
It does not count as five separate commandments, since the prohibition is expressed in the singular ["beard"] and there is only one type of action, as we explained in the previous commandment.
The details of this mitzvah have been explained in the end of Makkos. This prohibition is also not binding upon women.
FOOTNOTES
1. Lev.19:27.
2. Makkos 3:5.
3. Ibid. 21a.
4. As was the case with the previous prohibitions.
5. The Rambam L'am edition translates, "European priests. Ibn Tibbon translates, "idolatrous priests." This seems to be the source of the vernacular reference, "galach," for a priest.
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(Darn had a long good response that was great but clicked off).
Summary:
Married men don't have to have a beard.
Their are great Rabbis even who do not have beard, as well as great fools that do.
Many people are unfortunately shallow and judge on the outside.
They go to "Mekubalim" just because they have long beards and roll their eyes and do other silly things.
Their are great Rabbis who shave (and that includes the past as well) and the present, and I know of an example of top Rabbi who shaves and has many other Rabbis in his left pocket soo to speak. If you see him on the street you would think of him to be some average Shimon (Average Jewish Joe).
How do you deal with Negative Commandment 44 according to Rambams list of Mitzvot? Also where does it say that only married men are commanded not to cut the corners of the beard?
See http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/p0002.htm for list of Negative Commandments...
43 Not to shave the corners of the head like idolatrous priests, as it is written "ye shall not round the corners of your heads" (Leviticus 19,27).
44 Not to remove the whole beard like the idolaters, as it is written "neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard" (Leviticus 19,27).
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Why can't men trim eyebrows? I get that plucking is wrong, but there are other means.
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Why can't men trim eyebrows? I get that plucking is wrong, but there are other means.
I don't know but my first guess is because it is something which women regularly do and men are forbidden from trying to look like women..
But wait... I found a link which says it is ok...
http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5761/pinchas.html
CUTTING HAIR - WHEN IS IT PERMITTED? WHEN IS IT PROHIBITED?
It is permitted to trim a mustache that interferes with eating(2).
It is permitted to pluck one's eyebrows or eyelashes(3).
Married women may cut hair that is protruding from their head covering(4).
It is permitted to comb one's hair even though some hair will get torn out while combing(5).
Nail cutting is permitted(6).
It is permitted to shave if one's employer insists upon it(7). But if one's job is not at stake, though he may be ridiculed, it is forbidden to shave(8).
A mourner who completed his mourning period during the Three Weeks, may take a haircut and a shave(9).
The prohibition of hair-cutting applies even to small children under the age of chinuch(10). Thus if an upsheren falls during the Three Weeks, it should either be moved up or postponed(11).
If absolutely necessary, some poskim permit taking a haircut or a shave on the evening and night of the 17th of Tammuz(12).
There are poskim who support the custom of those who shave on erev Shabbos(13), but this is not the custom today in most communities(14).
On the day of a baby's bris(15), the father, the sandek and the mohel may take a haircut (16).
FOOTNOTES:
1 Ta'anis 31b, quoted in Shulchan Aruch O.C. 554:25.
2 O.C. 551:13.
3 Bein Pesach l'Shavuos, pg. 241, quoting an oral ruling from Harav S.Z. Auerbach and Harav S. Wosner.
4 Mishnah Berurah 551:79. When necessary, women may shave their legs; Harav M. Feinstein (Ohalei Yeshurun, pg. 9). See also Igros Moshe Y.D. 2:137 where he allows women to take haircuts when necessary during the Three Weeks. When necessary, a girl of marriageable age may take a haircut; Harav S.Z. Auerbach (Halichos Beisah, pg. 371).
5 Mishnah Berurah 551:20.
6Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 122:5.
7 Igros Moshe O.C. 4:102; She'arim Metzuyanim b'Halachah 122:5.
8 Igros Moshe C.M. 1:93.
9 Mishnah Berurah 551:87.
10 Sha'ar ha-Tziyun 551:91. Aruch ha-Shulchan 551:31, however, seems to hold that only children above the age of chinuch are prohibited to take a haircut. See also Igros Moshe Y.D. 1:224 who agrees with this opinion.
11 Mishnas Ya'akov O.C. 551 quoting Harav Y.Y. Teitelbaum (Satmar Rav).
12 Igros Moshe O.C. 4:112-2; She'arim Metzuyanim b'Halachah 122:1; Sharaga ha-Meir 2:13. Others do not agree with this leniency.
13 Kaf ha-Chayim 551:66. See also Beiur Halachah 551:3, quoting R' Akiva Eiger.
14 Shemiras Shabbos K'hilchasah 42:52.
15 Or the evening before, Mishnah Berurah 493:13. If the bris is on Shabbos, it is permitted to take a haircut on Friday, ibid. If the bris is on Sunday, most poskim do not permit taking a haircut on Friday; see Kaf ha-Chayim 493:36.
And also:
http://revach.net/ask/archives.php?cid=4&subcat=lo+silbash
Halacha - cutting mens eyebrows..
Submitted by anonymous Answered by Rav Peretz Moncharsh
Question: Is it permitted to cut mens eyebrows if not plucking out hairs (no tweezer is involved) ?
Answer: It is permitted for a man to trim his eyebrows with a scissors.
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The woman I share an office with at work, who is an Orthodox Rebbetzin said that religious Jews can only be clean shaven by using an electric razor because it doesn't cut the skin. However, she did say that the men have somehow adjust the blades a certain way.
Yes, many use an electric razor. The beard doesn't make the man.
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"On December 13, 2011, Matisyahu posted a beardless picture of himself on Twitter, explaining on his website: "No more Chassidic reggae superstar. Sorry folks, all you get is me…no alias. When I started becoming religious 10 years ago it was a very natural and organic process. It was my choice. My journey to discover my roots and explore Jewish spirituality—not through books but through real life. At a certain point I felt the need to submit to a higher level of religiosity…to move away from my intuition and to accept an ultimate truth. I felt that in order to become a good person I needed rules—lots of them—or else I would somehow fall apart. I am reclaiming myself. Trusting my goodness and my divine mission. Get ready for an amazing year filled with music of rebirth. And for those concerned with my naked face, don’t worry…you haven’t seen the last of my facial hair." Straight from Wikipedia.
How about quoting his next tweet which said he's going to mikveh and going to shul to daven. He is evolving in his teshuva process, it happens to many people. People should not disparage him. There is nothing that says you have to be chassidic. If he follows halacha and remains a believing Jew we are blessed to have him spreading a positive message.
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Yes, many use an electric razor. The beard doesn't make the man.
What I do not understand is how people can ignore the negative commandments. It clearly says that we should not cut the corners of the beard. And it says that idolatrous priests would shave and we should not do like they do. Do you know of a Rabbi who explains this? I do listen to Rabbis who do not have beards and I agree that the beard is external and does not automatically mean that the person is righteous.... But when I read commandments which I can fulfill without any worry, I follow the commandment, why should I not.
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One of the good Rabbis I like who does not wear a beard is Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi. It is so interesting that every Rabbi who I grow to like ends up with a radio show on Israel National Radio. First it was Rabbi Brody who I listened to for years from Breslev.org who got a show on A7... Then it was Rabbi Shafier who got a show on A7.... And most recently Rabbi Mizrachi got a show on A7...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYdqmJgEwy0
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Author.aspx/6260
Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi was born in 1968. He was raised in Israel and in 1986 at the age of 18, he was drafted into the Israeli Military (IDF) where he served in the Israeli Air Force. After his release from the military, he left for New York City where he was involved in the Financial banking District. In 1994, Rabbi Mizrachi decided to dedicate his life to the awareness of Judaism among secular Jews. It was in that year that he began coordinating lectures & seminars among Israelis in the New York – New Jersey area. In 1997 he left the financial district and began full time learning and teaching in a Yeshiva in Monsey, New York. In 2002, Rabbi Mizrachi, along with Yuval Ovadia, a former HBO director, produced an impressive film called ‘Divine Information’. This successful video was duplicated and distributed to more than 200,000 people. During the day, for years Rabbi Mizrachi was teaching Gemara in Yeshivat Ohr Yisrael in Monsey but today due to the increasing kiruv work that he is involved with, he dedicates all his time to the public. As of 2011, Rabbi Mizrachi has spoken in over 4000 lectures worldwide as well as participated in many weekend seminars, radio shows and other Hebrew and English events in which he enriches the knowledge and awareness of Judaism among thousands of Jews who are lacking in Jewish awareness. In 2004 he started his website, http://Divineinformation.com/ that has over 700 lectures of videos and audio with viewers from more than 50 countries around the world. He joins the Arutz 7, Israel National Radio Team with his new show, "Tshuva" (Return!) which airs every Monday 7 p.m. Israel / 12 p.m. US eastern time.
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What I do not understand is how people can ignore the negative commandments. It clearly says that we should not cut the corners of the beard. And it says that idolatrous priests would shave and we should not do like they do. Do you know of a Rabbi who explains this? I do listen to Rabbis who do not have beards and I agree that the beard is external and does not automatically mean that the person is righteous.... But when I read commandments which I can fulfill without any worry, I follow the commandment, why should I not.
No one (who shaves) is ignoring a negative commandment! Read the language carefully. The verb used is not merely "shave" - it's a strong connotation which the rabbis interpret as use of straight razor which cuts all the way down deep. electrics don't go that deep. It's much more complicated halachically but that's basically one way of boiling it all down. Rabbi Bar Hayim actually does not permit shaving with any kind of razor. Rav Moshe Feinstein explained a way to permit the electric razor, but Rabbi Bar Hayim apparently does not accept his explanation of how that fits with the halacha. I know another rabbi who has a different way of permitting an electric razor that he feels is halachically sound but actually is a different opinion than Rav Moshe's and gives a different reasoning. I haven't studied this issue in depth and therefore cannot explain what the intricate details of any of the positions are. For me, the jury's still out on this issue, until I actually learn it in detail. But suffice to say that NO ONE IS JUST IGNORING NEGATIVE COMMANDMENTS! That is clearly not allowed by halacha according to any opinion.
You are mistaken if you are assuming that people who shave are not following the commandment and people who don't shave, follow it. Like every commandment it has details which explain how it works and what the parameters are. The Oral Torah gives us these parameters and the poskim use these definitions to explain different cases. It's like you are telling me "The Torah says pick a beautiful fruit, so I grabbed a nice looking orange, I'm following the commandment" - no that is only a certain fruit and we know which fruit from the Oral Torah. Similarly, shaving is only forbidden when done in a certain manner.
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He is clearly having a faith crisis, if not a complete break to secularism. A frum Jew would know not to even make the appearance of losing his faith.
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No one (who shaves) is ignoring a negative commandment! Read the language carefully. The verb used is not merely "shave" - it's a strong connotation which the rabbis interpret as use of straight razor which cuts all the way down deep. electrics don't go that deep. It's much more complicated halachically but that's basically one way of boiling it all down. Rabbi Bar Hayim actually does not permit shaving with any kind of razor. Rav Moshe Feinstein explained a way to permit the electric razor, but he apparently does not accept his explanation of how that fits with the halacha. I know another rabbi who has a different way of permitting an electric razor that he feels is halachically sound but actually is a different opinion than Rav Moshe's and gives a different reasoning. I haven't studied this issue in depth and therefore cannot explain what the intricate details of any of the positions are. For me, the jury's still out on this issue, until I actually learn it in detail. But suffice to say that NO ONE IS JUST IGNORING NEGATIVE COMMANDMENTS! That is clearly not allowed by halacha according to any opinion.
You are mistaken if you are assuming that people who shave are not following the commandment and people who don't shave, follow it. Like every commandment it has details which explain how it works and what the parameters are. The Oral Torah gives us these parameters and the poskim use these definitions to explain different cases. It's like you are telling me "The Torah says pick a beautiful fruit, so I grabbed a nice looking orange, I'm following the commandment" - no that is only a certain fruit and we know which fruit from the Oral Torah. Similarly, shaving is only forbidden when done in a certain manner.
Ok... I am not trying to suggest they are... I just would be interested in the relevant opinions from the sages and the poskim.
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He is clearly having a faith crisis, if not a complete break to secularism. A frum Jew would know not to even make the appearance of losing his faith.
His next tweet was about going to the mikveh and to shul that morning to daven, though. I don't think he is giving that impression at all. It's the "frum police" who are overreacting to something that isn't there.
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Wow, I didn't want you guys to get into a fight over this. It was just a question. I just wanted to know if Jewish men, categorically, are required to keep beards or the lengthened sideburns. I notice a whole lot of frum Jews do and that they believe they are required to but then again Chaim doesn't ever and he is as devout as they come also. I have read before that Jews are permitted to shave with electric shavers but a lot of Jews think that they aren't even allowed.
I have a few questions for you KWRBT:
1--Can you explain what exactly is the "pagan way" of cutting a beard?
2--Is it a sin for Gentiles to shave the "pagan" way?
3--Are Jewish girls/women required to wear dresses? I think it is very lovely and classy and definitely that it sets them apart from the Gentile world but is it a requirement, an option, or something that is encouraged but not explicitly mandated? Debbie Schlussel is very frum but I don't think she wears a dress.
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Here is an article I found which discusses this issue:
http://www.vbm-torah.org/halakha/electric-razor.htm
HALAKHA
"Shaving with an Electric Razor"
by Rav Shabtai Rappaport
Translated and adapted by Rav Eliezer Kwass
INTRODUCTION
The Torah (Vayikra 19:27) prohibits "destroying the corners" of one's beard. The word "destroying" (hashchata) is explained in the Oral Law as referring to shaving down to the skin with a razor blade. Before modern times, a Jew who wanted to follow the halakha but did not want a beard would either have to remove his facial hair with (sometimes painful) cream or try his best to get a close shave using scissors (which is permitted according to many authorities, though some forbid it - see below).
The invention of the modern electric shaver challenges the halakhist to clarify the distinction between the prohibited razor shave and the permitted scissors shave. A group of modern poskim were presented with this question and many prohibited the use of electric shavers to achieve a close shave. Others permit its use, and among some segments of the observant community shaving with an electric razor is common practice.
The following article is an attempt to clarify the distinction between shaving with a razor and shaving with scissors and to then apply it to some of the electric shavers on the market in the mid 1980s. [One would obviously have to re-examine shavers in today's market.] It does not include a summary of responsa literature on the topic.
Several years ago the first section of an article of mine about shaving with an electric razor appeared in Daf Kesher (#66, Cheshvan 5747, vol. 1, pp. 261-265). That article dealt with the difference between shaving with a razor blade ("ta'ar"), which is biblically prohibited (Vayikra 19:27), and shaving with scissors ("misparayim ke-ein ta'ar"), which many poskim, among them the Shulchan Arukh and Rama (YD 181:10), permit.
We came to two conclusions:
1. The reason for the permissibility of scissors is not that it cannot achieve the RESULTS that a razor blade can, but because the shaving PROCESS involved is different. Even if someone would invent a pair of scissors that could shave as close as a razor, it would still be permitted to shave with it. According to the poskim - (especially the Maharshal in Yam Shel Shlomo Yevamot 12:17) - the process of cutting one's beard with a scissors is by definition excluded from the prohibition.
The Talmud derives from one phrase that the biblical prohibition against shaving one's beard does not apply to plucking it out, and from another it learns that the prohibition does not apply to using scissors. If shaving the beard with scissors is permitted only because it is an abnormal method, why the need for a second derivation? Apparently, we reasoned, PLUCKING is abnormal and using SCISSORS, though a normal enough method for shaving, is a different process than that of using a razor and is permitted for that reason.
2. The prohibition of shaving the corners of one's beard differs from the prohibition of a man removing hair in a feminine way, which is one aspect of the injunction, "lo yilbash" "A man should not wear a woman's clothes" (Devarim 22:5). Scissors are excluded from both prohibitions, but for different reasons. The removal of a man's hair in a way of "lo yilbash" would be permitted with scissors, because it is irregular for a woman to remove bodily hair with scissors; for a man to use scissors to remove his beard is normal, but it is permitted because it does not involve destroying the beard ("hashchata").
Because a woman is interested in totally removing hair for beauty, she usually uses a razor. Therefore, even though there not be a recognizable difference between a razor and scissors, only a razor is biblically prohibited. But because scissors can achieve similar results it is prohibited by a rabbinic decree.
We closed that article with the following unkept promise: "What remains to be explained is what, ultimately, is the difference between shaving with a razor ("ta'ar") and shaving with scissors ("misparayim ke-ein ta'ar"). Though there is not necessarily a difference between the RESULTS achieved by the two, the PROCESS involved differs, and one who wants to remove hair completely usually uses a razor. In a subsequent article we will clarify this and its ramifications for the issue of shaving with electric razors."
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Wow, I didn't want you guys to get into a fight over this. It was just a question. I just wanted to know if Jewish men, categorically, are required to keep beards or the lengthened sideburns. I notice a whole lot of frum Jews do and that they believe they are required to but then again Chaim doesn't ever and he is as devout as they come also. I have read before that Jews are permitted to shave with electric shavers but a lot of Jews think that they aren't even allowed.
I have a few questions for you KWRBT:
1--Can you explain what exactly is the "pagan way" of cutting a beard?
2--Is it a sin for Gentiles to shave the "pagan" way?
3--Are Jewish girls/women required to wear dresses? I think it is very lovely and classy and definitely that it sets them apart from the Gentile world but is it a requirement, an option, or something that is encouraged but not explicitly mandated? Debbie Schlussel is very frum but I don't think she wears a dress.
The commandments were given to the Jews. We have 613 commandments while the nations have 7 commandments. The issue of shaving is not relevant to non-Jews...
My answer regarding womens dress is one word.... Tzniut.... It is modest dress... A woman should dress modestly with her knees covered. This is the definition of Tznuit.
http://www.yoatzot.org/question.php?id=11069
http://www.torah.org/learning/women/class14.html
TSNIUT: THE PRINCIPLE OF INTERNALITY
The Judaic response to human nature's tendency toward superficiality is a set of laws that are categorized under the heading of "tzniut." The actual definition of tzniut is the practical commitment not to allow oneself to be moved into superficial or external definitions of self or others. The result of tzniut is to make room for an inner, and therefore more total, vision to emerge. (Since the closest, though inaccurate, English definition of tzniut is "modesty," a word with negative vibes in much of today's society, we will continue to use the Hebrew term with its positive connotations.)
Tzniut is a consciousness that the Torah demands both men and women to develop, because it is a prerequisite to possessing a spiritual worldview. Men in Jewish religious society have generally taken it upon themselves to uphold a standard of dress that rivals and sometimes even surpasses that of traditional women. Many men avoid wearing short sleeves and wear shorts, if they do at all, only for sports...
So why is tzniut emphasized more for women than for men? The answer is twofold. Primarily, women are acknowledged to be more inherently gifted in tzniut and are therefore more strongly encouraged to achieve in this area of spiritual endeavor. There is also the recognition that men's greater propensity to objectify the opposite sex tends to lead to women's suffering from self-definition based on externalities. For both of these reasons, Judaism directs more specific tzniut legislation at women.
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I understand that but aren't there many things that aren't explicitly part of the 7NL that are nonetheless considered to be covered by them? Like, for instance, the belief that it's a sin for Gentiles to have a pet spayed/neutered.
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I understand that but aren't there many things that aren't explicitly part of the 7NL that are nonetheless considered to be covered by them? Like, for instance, the belief that it's a sin for Gentiles to have a pet spayed/neutered.
Yes, you are correct that the 7 laws are categories of laws... But I am not aware which of the seven shaving would come under. You are concerned whether it is 'idolatrous practice'? I am not sure...
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So where does the belief that it is wrong to have a pet spayed fall under in the 7 laws?
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I have a few questions for you KWRBT:
1--Can you explain what exactly is the "pagan way" of cutting a beard?
2--Is it a sin for Gentiles to shave the "pagan" way?
3--Are Jewish girls/women required to wear dresses? I think it is very lovely and classy and definitely that it sets them apart from the Gentile world but is it a requirement, an option, or something that is encouraged but not explicitly mandated? Debbie Schlussel is very frum but I don't think she wears a dress.
I never said "pagan way," so I'm not sure what you mean.
The commandment against shaving the beard with a razor is only for Jews. It's not an ethical law and not contained within the noahide commandments.
On dresses, its part of the code of modesty for Jewish women, they have to wear skirts or dresses, but not pants because pants are considered specifically a man's clothing. According to the Jewish law, men cannot wear the garb of women, and vice versa. On that, everyone agrees. And that is about keeping the men as men and women as women, and in general not trying to adopt other roles for ourselves than what we were given.
Where opinions differ is on whether pants are truly a man's garment, especially in todays day and age where the fashion became for women to wear pants also, for one thing, and for another, that jeans and other pants are designed specially for women or men's figures and you have separate womens and mens pants with completely different construction. So, culturally, you will see some of the modern orthodox are more lenient with this particular thing and sometimes wear pants - for that basic reason I mentioned. But for the most part, most of the Orthodox women wear a skirt or dress.
As an easy example - for a man to wear a dress would be forbidden. A dress is clearly a woman's garment, so a man cannot put it on himself. Everyone agrees to that.
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So where does the belief that it is wrong to have a pet spayed fall under in the 7 laws?
I thought you knew... I was not the one who said it was...
Here are the seven according to Chabad:
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/541,2173388/What-are-the-actual-Seven-Noahide-Laws.html
Judaism teaches about a Divine Mandate known as the Seven Noahide Laws, which are G-d's universal laws for all mankind as taught to Moses and recorded in the Torah.1 They are:
1. No idolatry - Prohibits the worship of any human or any created thing. Also prohibited is the making of idols and involvement with the occult. This necessitates an understanding of the One G-d and His nature.
2. No blasphemy - Prohibits a curse directed at the Supreme Being.
3. No homicide - Prohibits murder and suicide. Causing injury is also forbidden.
4. No theft - Prohibits the wrongful taking of another's goods.
5. No illicit intercourse - Prohibits adultery, incest, homosexual intercourse and bestiality, according to Torah definitions.
6. Don't eat a limb of a living creature - Promotes the kind treatment of animal life. It also encourages an appreciation for all kinds of life and respect for nature as G-d's creation.
7. Carry out justice - An imperative to pursue and enforce social justice, and a prohibition of any miscarriage of justice.
http://www.jewishideas.org/angel-shabbat/noahide-laws-thoughts-parashat-noah-october-9-
Rabbinic tradition teaches that Noah and his descendants were given seven basic categories of law, and that "Noahides" fulfill their religious obligations through these Noahide laws. The Talmud (Yevamot 47a) states: "Our sages have said that seven commandments have been prescribed for the Sons of Noah: the first requires them to have judges; the other six forbid sacrilege, idolatry, incest, homicide, theft, and the consumption of a limb taken from a living animal."
The great 19th century thinker, Rabbi Eliyahu Benamozegh, pointed out that the Noahide laws represent an important part of Jewish teaching. While Jews are obligated to observe all the commandments of the Torah due to their covenant with God, all non-Jewish human beings are bound by a divine covenant through the specific commandments given to them as Noahides. Thus, Judaism is a religion that maintains both a specific message to Jews, and a universal message for all humankind.
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I never said "pagan way," so I'm not sure what you mean.
I think he was talking about the commandment which says not to cut like the 'idolatrous priests'.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/940319/jewish/Negative-Commandment-43.htm
The 43rd prohibition is that we are forbidden from shaving1 the temples of our heads.
The source of this commandment is G‑d's statement (exalted be He),2 "Do not round off the corners of your head."
This prohibition also3 has the goal of preventing us from emulating idol worshippers, since it was the practice of idol worshippers to shave only the sides [of their heads]. For this reason the Sages had to explain in Tractate Yevamos4 that, "Shaving the entire head is also included in the prohibition of 'rounding,'" so that you should not say that the actual prohibition is shaving the temples and leaving the rest of the hair, as the idolatrous priests do; but if you shave the entire head, you are not emulating them. The Sages therefore informed us that it is prohibited to shave the temples in any manner — not by themselves and not with the rest of the head.
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Oh, and on the sideburns. The basic requirement is like a centimeter or whatever, you just cannot shave it completely off. There has to be enough hair there at the "corners" to grasp with the finger tips. It's a very small amount in the halachic parameters. So any basic haircut that doesn't shave it off entirely will suffice. When the chassidic movement developed, one of the things they took on as a beautification of this mitzvah was to let the sideburns grow out long and flowing (and to style them to I guess). The chassidic movement made many innovations to beautify the mitzvahs and put vitality and energy into the observance. This was but one example. IOW as a summation of their approach - "the commandment says don't shave the corners of your head, so we will not only "not shave" we will also let it grow out and be long and never even cut it at all, let alone shave it"
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I know what the seven laws are, I was asking where the thing about not spaying an animal falls into them.
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Oh, and on the sideburns. The basic requirement is like a centimeter or whatever, you just cannot shave it completely off. There has to be enough hair there at the "corners" to grasp with the finger tips. It's a very small amount in the halachic parameters. So any basic haircut that doesn't shave it off entirely will suffice. When the chassidic movement developed, one of the things they took on as a beautification of this mitzvah was to let the sideburns grow out long and flowing (and to style them to I guess). The chassidic movement made many innovations to beautify the mitzvahs and put vitality and energy into the observance. This was but one example. IOW as a summation of their approach - "the commandment says don't shave the corners of your head, so we will not only "not shave" we will also let it grow out and be long and never even cut it at all, let alone shave it"
Yes, it is interesting that the Yemeni Jews also allowed their peyot to grow... I also believe that it is done to make the Jew different from the non-Jew...
(http://www.arachimusa.org/_uploads/imagesgallery/268voliume1p16.jpg)
(http://uploads.static.vosizneias.com/2008/12/yaish.jpg)
(http://uploads.static.vosizneias.com/2009/01/ymenjew.jpg)
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I know what the seven laws are, I was asking where the thing about not spaying an animal falls into them.
Thats the thing... I don't know that it falls under any of the seven. Where did you learn it was not permitted for a non-Jew to spay/neuter?
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I never said "pagan way," so I'm not sure what you mean.
I didn't specifically say you said it. I was referring to this, the "idolatrous priests": http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,58832.msg529090.html#msg529090
The commandment against shaving the beard with a razor is only for Jews.
So, do we know if Matisyahu shaved the forbidden way, with a razor, or if he used an electric shaver?
On dresses, its part of the code of modesty for Jewish women, they have to wear skirts or dresses, but not pants because pants are considered specifically a man's clothing. According to the Jewish law, men cannot wear the garb of women, and vice versa. On that, everyone agrees. And that is about keeping the men as men and women as women, and in general not trying to adopt other roles for ourselves than what we were given.
Where opinions differ is on whether pants are truly a man's garment, especially in todays day and age where the fashion became for women to wear pants also, for one thing, and for another, that jeans and other pants are designed specially for women or men's figures and you have separate womens and mens pants with completely different construction. So, culturally, you will see some of the modern orthodox are more lenient with this particular thing and sometimes wear pants - for that basic reason I mentioned. But for the most part, most of the Orthodox women wear a skirt or dress.
Thanks for the explanation. I thought it was primarily about modesty and not cross-dressing. Of course I remember that the Bible forbids cross-dressing in Leviticus (Christians abide by this too). I don't think that in Western society that pants or jeans count as man's clothing at this time, but obviously a dress is still very much women's clothing.
Here's a twist I just thought of: what does Judaism say about goth dress which often involves men wearing makeup? Is this considered cross-dressing or is it something else entirely? Or is the goth style simply considered idolatrous?
As an easy example - for a man to wear a dress would be forbidden. A dress is clearly a woman's garment, so a man cannot put it on himself. Everyone agrees to that.
Of course.
So, does anybody have a definitive interpretation of that cryptic paragraph given by Matisyahu or any guesses?
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I will wait to hear from the 'grapevine' of people who I know who say they know him... I'm sure Ill hear about it one of these Shabbats...
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Thats the thing... I don't know that it falls under any of the seven. Where did you learn it was not permitted for a non-Jew to spay/neuter?
Tag Machir-Tzedek said so
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Here he is being interviewed on this topic...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6g-qz6S_S4
I don't agree with him on some points...
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Thanks for the link.
In my opinion he is deliberately vague and doesn't say much. What he does say can be taken either way, i.e. that he has turned his back on his faith or that it is merely evolving.
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Meh, the Jews that are freaking out about this are all of the Chassidim. I think they might feel like they lost their mascot or something. It always feels good to be able to identify with some big celebrity. In truth the Jewish way is the path beyond the cult of personality. In my opinion many Chassidim, especially Chabad, have a big problem moving beyond the personality.
Now, take into account that I am a Spanish and Portuguese Jew, so from a philosophical perspective I am probably as polar opposite as you can get from a Chassidic Ashkenazic type. Given that, it seems to me that what he did is probably proof that he is growing, becoming more observant, and more aware of what it is to be a Torah observant Jew.
I am sure he did not do this without thought, as his statement comes with consequences from the Chabad community which has supported him so much in the past. It would not surprise me if he now feels a bit shunned by Chassidim and Chabad in particular. I am sure to them what he did was a very public statement of rejection of their way of life and their philosophy of what it means to be a Jew.
I wish him the best.
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How do you deal with Negative Commandment 44 according to Rambams list of Mitzvot? Also where does it say that only married men are commanded not to cut the corners of the beard?
43 Not to shave the corners of the head like idolatrous priests, as it is written "ye shall not round the corners of your heads" (Leviticus 19,27).
44 Not to remove the whole beard like the idolaters, as it is written "neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard" (Leviticus 19,27).
Did II saw only married men? I was responding to someone else stating that married men, etc..... which I do not agree with.
Read the Rambam clearly and slowly, its like the idolaters, etc. Also their are many other poskim on this as well. And I do not and do not say to shave however one likes. Their are clear ways according to Halacha to shave. One needs to either give their shaver to a Rabbi who knows these Halachot or to even a trust worthy religious Jew who knows what to do to the shaver (that is what I did, and it became "kosher" in the sense that it is in compliance with halacha). Besides that their are people who state not to shave at all. BUT their source isn't from Halacha but from "Kabbalah". And we are not Kabbalists, soo these things do not apply to us. But this is also why you see that many Hassidim do not shave. As opposed to many normal Orthodox who do.
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Tag Machir-Tzedek said so
Honestly I said it seems soo according to that response. I was not and am not stating that as a fact. I said if you are interested you (or one) needs to ask that Rav (Rav Bar Haim) who said that Jews or non-Jews or animals are not allowed to be neutered. Not sure if that means that if you (as a non-Jew) can or cannot according to the laws of the Torah do soo or not.
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Great for him. Being shaven is not according to the law. It is according to Kabbalists and Hassidim which is not the letter of the law. As long as Matisyahu or any Jew is keeping the laws (Halachot) it is all the same in G-D's eyes. He is an individual and he decides what he should or should not do. And how he wants to look or not.
- Also Muman that video you posted does not say or portray anything of him leaving the religion or anything like that. I think people are just reading into things for no apparent reason. He also has a Yamulka on his head. Soo people should relax.
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Great for him. Being shaven is not according to the law. It is according to Kabbalists and Hassidim which is not the letter of the law. As long as Matisyahu or any Jew is keeping the laws (Halachot) it is all the same in G-D's eyes. He is an individual and he decides what he should or should not do. And how he wants to look or not.
- Also Muman that video you posted does not say or portray anything of him leaving the religion or anything like that. I think people are just reading into things for no apparent reason. He also has a Yamulka on his head. Soo people should relax.
I have been relaxed about this... My initial response when I first heard about it was that it was his decision, and we will see what effect it has on his observance.
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And by the way- people suspecting and accusing him of things he did not admit to either makes them get what they are accusing him of getting- a sin.
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And by the way- people suspecting and accusing him of things he did not admit to either makes them get what they are accusing him of getting- a sin.
I have not accused him of anything... I have always said to wait and see what becomes of this. It is wrong to make snap judgements...
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I have not accused him of anything... I have always said to wait and see what becomes of this. It is wrong to make snap judgements...
I'm not accusing you of accusing him.
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Like I said, I think he was intentionally vague and nebulous.
Now, what I want to know if he supports Israel at the moment. He didn't even touch that.
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Like I said, I think he was intentionally vague and nebulous.
Now, what I want to know if he supports Israel at the moment. He didn't even touch that.
Does he have to answer to you? Or to me or to anyone besides G-D?
And he wasn't vague at all. I think you should drop it.
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Why are you taking offense to that? I am not going to judge him on his faith--that's not my place. But I want to know whether or not he supports he supports his brothers and sisters in G-d's land.
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Does he have to answer to you? Or to me or to anyone besides G-D?
And he wasn't vague at all. I think you should drop it.
Im pretty sure he would still support Israel... It is really too early to make any judgements based on him shaving his beard...
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Mum I think you were replying to Axl on the last one and not me.
- Also about the shaving KahanewasrightBT is correct about that being Rav Bar Haims opinion. I asked and clarified it with him personally today and he explained it to me (he said he is mahmir, soo I'll Bli neder follow it this was now B"H). But either way even if we are to say and believe it is forbidden the facts are that many others permit it (and even I before today didn't know this as soo) and we can and should believe that he is holding like them in this matter. In this situation their is no other reason then being Lekah Zehut and not just with words but with thoughts as well because we clearly don't see Matisyahu committing outright sins. Its not like we just found the guy sleeping with someones wife (G-D forbid) like you see with many celebraties etc. Or publicly stating not to keep Shabbout or that he isnt keeping it. And on top of that he went to the Mikwaa the next day ( something in his situation is not even Hayaw to do). - Being outside of Israel.
(By the way I also meet a guy who mentioned Chaim and he made shows with him, I think he said his name is Bob) He was talking to some people and mentioned JTF as well.
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Mum I think you were replying to Axl on the last one and not me.
- Also about the shaving KahanewasrightBT is correct about that being Rav Bar Haims opinion. I asked and clarified it with him personally today and he explained it to me (he said he is mahmir, soo I'll Bli neder follow it this was now B"H). But either way even if we are to say and believe it is forbidden the facts are that many others permit it (and even I before today didn't know this as soo) and we can and should believe that he is holding like them in this matter. In this situation their is no other reason then being Lekah Zehut and not just with words but with thoughts as well because we clearly don't see Matisyahu committing outright sins. Its not like we just found the guy sleeping with someones wife (G-D forbid) like you see with many celebraties etc. Or publicly stating not to keep Shabbout or that he isnt keeping it. And on top of that he went to the Mikwaa the next day ( something in his situation is not even Hayaw to do). - Being outside of Israel.
(By the way I also meet a guy who mentioned Chaim and he made shows with him, I think he said his name is Bob) He was talking to some people and mentioned JTF as well.
Yes... I apologize...
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So, do we know if Matisyahu shaved the forbidden way, with a razor, or if he used an electric shaver?
Thanks for the explanation.
Chas veshalom. I don't think there's any reason to suspect that at all. I would suspect he used an electric, he's a pretty religious guy.
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I'm trying to research this topic right now and a friend of mine gave me this website
http://www.koshershaver.org/why.htm
(not sure if all Rabbanim including Rav Bar Hayim agree with it, but im skimming through it and in regards to Matisyahu a further thing)
The Chasam Sofer concludes by saying that a person who acts stringently is considered holy, but one who acts leniently should not be criticized in any way for his conduct.