JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: muman613 on December 21, 2011, 02:51:01 AM
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This story makes me angry... I don't want to upset anyone but this is depressing news to read on Chanukah:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jICC-fYSB210wvRKhP6O0-8kKmuQ?docId=1ea687c5a34e4b6c9761b70b2758ce9f
In Israel, a higher profile for Christmas
By DANIELLA CHESLOW, Associated Press – 17 minutes ago
TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) — The founders of Neve Shaanan, a neighborhood in southern Tel Aviv, planned their streets in the shape of a seven-branched candelabra — a symbol of their Jewish faith. Ninety years later, the streets are full of Christmas decorations, reflecting a flowering of Christianity in Israel's economic and cultural capital.
Tens of thousands of Christian foreigners, most of them laborers from the Philippines and African asylum seekers, have poured into the neighborhood in recent years. They pray year-round in more than 30 churches hidden in grimy apartment buildings. But in late December, their Christian subculture emerges in full force in the southern streets of Tel Aviv, whose founders called it the "first Hebrew city."
On the Saturday before Christmas, the center of festivities was the city's central bus station, a hulking seven-story maze of concrete. A plastic green fir spewed fake snow from its top in a shop near the main entrance. Christmas carols blasted from storefronts full of rice and noodles. Giggly young Filipinas took photographs with a Santa Claus figure to send to their friends and parents.
A few blocks north of the station, pastor Ruby Austria held her arms up and led prayers for 80 worshippers, most of them Filipina women, at a makeshift church on the third floor of an apartment building.
Women wept, clutching small children and singing along to Austria's prayers and a keyboard accompaniment. Nearly all of them were in Israel illegally because they lost their work permits when they had children.
"G-d is embracing us," Austria said. "May we see the true meaning of Christmas, that each of us will be able to see it in our lives and family."
Romeo Moralit, 35, arrived in Israel five years ago to work as a caregiver. He planned to buy a musical Santa Claus statue to bring cheer to his home, he said. Tel Aviv's Christmas celebrations paled in comparison to Manila's. "In the Philippines you see decorations everywhere, twinkling lights, and songs playing in all the shopping malls," he said.
For some, the holiday punctuates the divide between parents and children.
Nancy Domingo, who arrived in Israel 14 years ago from the Philippines, said her eldest daughter did not plan on eating traditional Filipino Christmas food. The 7-year-old, like the other children of migrant workers here, has grown up steeped in Israeli Jewish culture. The girl speaks Hebrew, learns about Jewish holidays in school and is familiar with Jewish dietary laws, such as the ban on pork.
"If I cook pork she won't eat it because in school they tell her pork is not clean," Domingo said. "She doesn't know Christmas, only Hanukkah."
Nearby, a mostly African church called Lift Up Your Head, runs an annual trip to Jerusalem's Old City and Bethlehem. Tour organizer Anthony
Stephens, a Nigerian asylum seeker, said 150 people have signed up.
"People from all over the world spend a lot of money to come here, but for us it is like a gift because we are in the land," said Stephens.
Lift Up Your Head is sandwiched between two other African congregations on the first and third floors of an apartment building. These churches offer African-inflected gospel music, dancing in the aisles and fiery preaching that holds together an impoverished group far from home. On Saturday, pastor Jeremiah Dairo howled into a microphone between songs.
"Today you are in the right place and G-d will see you through, in the mighty name of Jesus!" Dairo said.
Not all Israelis are pleased to see the rising profile of Christmas, which to some symbolizes religious assimilation and to others a religion with a history of hostility to Jews. Moshe Avisar, 67, on his way back to Jerusalem, said the decorations in the bus station bothered him.
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This story really gets me... These are immigrants who have no care that they are worshiping avodah zarah in the Holy Land....
I truly looked forward to moving to Israel to lose the Christmas spirit... But now they are getting it in Israel... Where is there a Jewish state?
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It's all very well taking in the aliens (refugees) and giving them a home but what happens when the alien changes the ways and customs of the host?
I think it's about time the Rabbis took control and say no more!
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How would you feel if these immigrants--not that they should be here--were Muslims instead of Christians?
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How would you feel if these immigrants--not that they should be here--were Muslims instead of Christians?
Christians, (I don't mean to offend here) are a pain in the bum.
Muslims are a intolerable pain to anyone, everyone and should be treated the same way vermin should be treated.
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this is israels fault for relying on foreign laborers. at least it seems the laborers are a lot more respectful of the jewish identity than muslims. the article says that many of their children are fluent in hebrew and learn the jewish culture which is good. muman i know judaism tells you one thing but for these people celebrating christmas in the holy land is a lifechanging experience very few obviously get to experience. i do agree though that israel should have a jewish identity and this open portrayal of the commercial christmas ie the trees, lights, etc should be kept to a bare minimum.
from what i know of tel aviv it doesnt have much of a jewish identity itself and is more of a secular metropolis. obviously most residents are jewish though!
edit; i think looking to the rabbis to change this wont work bc the same rabbis sanctioned giving over gaza to the arabs.
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edit; i think looking to the rabbis to change this wont work bc the same rabbis sanctioned giving over gaza to the arabs.
The vast majority didn't ( I heard this as well in a shiur by Rav Bar Hayim Shlitta yesterday, and he is very critical of the system as a whole).
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Israel's fault for letting Muslims take control over Bethlehem
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Israel should not rely on foreign labor. They have enough skilled workers already.
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I have nothing against christians, especially the filipino people.. The problem is the black invaders, who are mostly muslims
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I have nothing against christians, especially the filipino people.. The problem is the black invaders, who are mostly muslims
Agreed. We should kick them out.
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Well it seems that the 'Palestinian' Christians want more of the Holy Land. They are complaining that the 'Jews' are building 'settlements' around Bethlahem.
This is the problem when you give them an inch they want the whole yard...
http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/12/22/2558042/residents-of-bethlehem-fear-israeli.html
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How do you feel about "immigrants" in Israel in general?
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How do you feel about "immigrants" in Israel in general?
I believe that immigrants are useful in order for commerce but they should not be citizens. They should be allowed to work in Israel for a period and then go back to where they came from. I think the illegal immigration in Israel is shameful. In order to keep the Jewish nature of the state it should be clear that non-Jewish observance should be something done in the home, not in the public. I realize this opinion may be controversial but it is, according to my understanding, according to the Torah principle of Gerim {Strangers in the Land}.
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Clearly this is a bit unrealistic, but I would like to see a purely Jewish Israel. It's bad enough we have to deal with the non-Jewish or half/quarter/eighth-breed Jewish Russians who sneaked under the guise of being oppressed Jews. Now we have Russian neo-Nazis in Israel. Lovely.
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Christians, (I don't mean to offend here) are a pain in the bum.
Muslims are a intolerable pain to anyone, everyone and should be treated the same way vermin should be treated.
Brett, you slay me... :laugh:
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Why does Israel need "immigrants" at all and who wants them there? The only people in Israel that support "immigrants" are the snobby elites of Tel Aviv, Haifa, etc. who enjoy having cheap labor. Nobody else desires them or is benefited by them in the least. Do you know how hard it is for some Sfaradim/Mizrachim without formal educations to get jobs because the kinds of fields they traditionally work in are primarily populated these days by African "refugee" slime or Arab Nazis?
Even the most menial agricultural and maintenance jobs in Israel should not go to "immigrants". Israel has the best tech sector per capita of any nation on earth and all of the manual field labor that goes to "Fakestinian" and African workers today could easily be done by machines and robots--but Israeli CEOs would rather pay the human refuse low wages to do so, and have the Israeli taxpayer pick up the remainder of the tab.
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Here is some commentary which discusses the differences between a 'Ger/Stranger' and a 'Ger Tzedek/Righteous Convert'..
http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/parsha68/46-68ekev.htm
PARASHAT EKEV
Love for the "Ger"
By Rav Yehuda Rock
The Problem
Towards the end of Parashat Ekev, Moshe contrasts G-d's power and mercy, deriving a moral lesson (10:17-19):
For Lord your G-d is the G-d of gods and the Lord of lords: the great, mighty, awesome G-d, Who does not show favor and does not take bribes; Who executes judgment for the orphan and the widow, and loves the stranger (ger), giving him food and garments. You shall love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
In the terminology of the Sages, the word "ger," used alone, means a "ger tzedek" – i.e., a proselyte, someone who has joined himself to Am Yisrael (the Jewish people) through circumcision and immersion and has taken upon himself all of the Torah's commandments. In the Torah, however, we find that the word ger is used to refer to a stranger, a person from a foreign land who is living in Eretz Yisrael, the Land of Israel – a land that is foreign to him. This is borne out by the verse cited above: "For you were strangers (gerim) in the land of Egypt." There is no question of a reference here to any sort of conversion or assumption of a new identity; the term "gerim" simply denotes living amongst a foreign people. There are also several other places in the Torah where Am Yisrael are referred to, during their time in Egypt, as gerim. Examples of the same meaning in different contexts include Avraham's words to the children of Chet - "I am a stranger and resident (ger ve-toshav) in your midst" (Bereishit 23:4); "He called him Gershom, for he said: 'I have been a stranger in a foreign land'" (Shemot 2:22). As Rashi (Shemot 22:20) notes, "Wherever the Torah uses the word 'ger,' it refers to a person who was not born in that land, but rather comes from some other land to live there."
On this basis, the simple meaning of the commandment to "love the ger" is that one should love any person who comes to live in Israel. This meaning is connoted most strongly in another place (Vayikra 19:33-34) where the same commandment is reiterated:
If a stranger (ger) lives (yagur) with you in your land, you shall not wrong him. A stranger who lives (ha-gar) with you shall be for you like one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt; I am Lord your G-d.
In other words, the Torah seems to be saying: if a foreigner comes and lives with you in your land, you must act towards him with love and show him equality.
However, according to Halakha, the commandment to "love the ger" is limited in its application to the ger as referred to in rabbinical literature, a ger tzedek. This we learn from the Mekhilta (Nezikin 18):
Beloved are the gerim, concerning whom G-d adjures in many places, "You shall not oppress a ger" (Shemot 23:9); "You shall not wrong a ger" (ibid. 22:20); "You shall love the ger;" "For you know the soul of a ger" (Shemot 23:9).
Similarly, the Rambam rules (Hilkhot De'ot 6:4):
Love for a ger who has come under the wings of the Divine Presence (i.e., converted) comprises two positive commandments: one, because he is now among those referred to as "fellow" [as in the commandment, 'You shall love your fellow as yourself' (Vayikra 19:19)]; and the other, because he is a convert, and the Torah says, "You shall love the ger."
The same is found Sefer Ha-mitzvot (Positive 207) and among the other codifiers of the mitzvot.[1] In fact, this is just one of many instances in which the Torah speaks about a ger and Halakha applies the law involved only to a ger tzedek. For this reason, the commentators have generally tended to propose that the word ger has another meaning in the Torah: it can also mean a person who has changed his religion, i.e., converted and become part of Am Yisrael. However, as noted, the Torah offers no clear instance of the word being used in this sense.[2] Furthermore, in some of the instances where it is clear that Halakha applies only to a covert, the verse implies that what characterizes a ger in this context is not his new status as a Jew, but rather the fact that he is living amongst Am Yisrael. Thus, Shemot 12:48-49 equates the law "for the native-born and for the stranger who lives in your midst." If the ger here referred to someone who is part of Am Yisrael, what would be the significance of the qualification, "who lives in your midst"?
Hence it seems that there is constant discord between many verses in the Torah, on one hand, and Halakha, on the other. This contradiction demands some explanation; first, let us review the areas in which it arises.
The original topic concerns the obligation in mitzvot. In many different places, the Torah seems to suggest that the ger – a person who has come to live amongst Am Yisrael in their land – is obligated to observe the commandments. The most compelling example, from Shemot, we mentioned above:
If a ger lives with you – he shall perform the paschal-offering to G-d. Let all of his males be circumcised, and then he shall come near to perform it, and he shall be like the native-born… One law shall there be for the native-born and for the stranger who lives in your midst.
Ibn Ezra, in his Long Commentary, understands the verse not as a commandment, but as a description of a set of circumstances: a ger who comes to live among you and who wishes to perform the paschal-offering must be circumcised. However, aside from the fact that this goes against Halakha (see the Rambam, Hilkhot Korban Pesach 9:7), this interpretation undermines the continuity with the next verse, which sets forth the general rule that "One law shall there be for the native-born and for the ger who lives in your midst." A simple reading indicates that these verses mean to establish the ger's obligation with respect to circumcision, the paschal-offering, and the other commandments (as Rashi explains), and that this includes any ger who lives permanently with Am Yisrael (in contrast to Rashi's view). Only a "resident or hired laborer" (toshav ve-sakhir) – who, accordingly to the literal text, seems not to live in Eretz Yisrael on a permanent basis, but rather dwell temporarily – is exempt and excluded from the Pesach sacrifices. Concerning these we are told, "a resident or hired laborer shall not eat of it" (ibid, verse 45).
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Israel should not rely on foreign labor. They have enough skilled workers already.
Isn't the foreign labor unskilled? They do the grunt work no one else wants to do. Problem is the Jews have so many skills, there is no one without skills...except the Arabs who live there.
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Why does Israel need "immigrants" at all and who wants them there? The only people in Israel that support "immigrants" are the snobby elites of Tel Aviv, Haifa, etc. who enjoy having cheap labor. Nobody else desires them or is benefited by them in the least. Do you know how hard it is for some Sfaradim/Mizrachim without formal educations to get jobs because the kinds of fields they traditionally work in are primarily populated these days by African "refugee" slime or Arab Nazis?
Even the most menial agricultural and maintenance jobs in Israel should not go to "immigrants". Israel has the best tech sector per capita of any nation on earth and all of the manual field labor that goes to "Fakestinian" and African workers today could easily be done by machines and robots--but Israeli CEOs would rather pay the human refuse low wages to do so, and have the Israeli taxpayer pick up the remainder of the tab.
It is easy to say this but there are reasons concerning the economy which requires this 'cheap labor'. I can imagine the inflation which would result in having to pay more for Jewish labor.
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This story makes me angry... I don't want to upset anyone but this is depressing news to read on Chanukah:
It's depressing news to read any day of the year.
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It is easy to say this but there are reasons concerning the economy which requires this 'cheap labor'. I can imagine the inflation which would result in having to pay more for Jewish labor.
the same reason america lets in mexicans to do the menial labor jobs. native born people are 'too good' to do that line of work. im sure the immigrants make a lot less than would normally pay an israeli too.
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I can imagine the inflation which would result in having to pay more for Jewish labor.
Are you trying to say that hiring Arabs and African illegals is justified?
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Are you trying to say that hiring Arabs and African illegals is justified?
Im saying that the current situation requires them. As several others have explained there are some jobs which Jews are not willing to work at. In this respect we have become dependent of foreign workers. It is not my desire that it be like this, it is just my observation.
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If they weren't there do you not think the market would adapt? Last time I checked the Sfaradim/Mizrachim unemployment rate was high enough to cover most labor needs. Do you not think that they want to work, or that mechanization would take care of Israel's agricultural needs if the MNCs were willing to invest in it?
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I was reading this thread on my cell phone on way back from work.
Frankly, I don't understand this business of hiring foreign workers. Jews should be working at the jobs these foreign workers now have. If these Jews think they're above certain lines of work because they "want to be someone" or that they want their kids to "be someone," they're just idiots.
Rabbi Kahane once wrote about this phenomenon. He wrote about how he was speaking with some Jewish man in Israel (I think?) who lived comfortably. When asked about his kids, the man said he didn't want them going into his line of work because he wanted them to grow up and "be someone."
So thanks this prevalent attitude among many Israeli Jews, they've ended up with a large foreign non-Jewish workforce. And with all these non Jews in Israel, there's a risk of Jews losing their Judaism/assimilating. Also, with a large number of Christian workers, you risk even more missionary activity against Jews.
Now don't get me wrong here. I think our Christian members here are wonderful.
But those Jews in Israel are risking assimilation in their own country by importing all these foreign workers.
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If Torah Jews don't take Israel, then it will go to the dogs. Shame on us.
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The entire situation is ridiculous. None of these people should be in Israel. I don't mind the Filipinos as much but they are still doing jobs Jews should have. If Jews "aren't willing" to do these jobs as the cliched supporters of MNCs always are claiming when it comes to cheap labor, they should invest a little cash into Israel's amazing technological centers and create robots and machines that can do the grunt work.
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The entire situation is ridiculous. None of these people should be in Israel. I don't mind the Filipinos as much but they are still doing jobs Jews should have. If Jews "aren't willing" to do these jobs as the cliched supporters of MNCs always are claiming when it comes to cheap labor, they should invest a little cash into Israel's amazing technological centers and create robots and machines that can do the grunt work.
Now that is a great idea... I think Israel could outdo Silicon Valley when it comes to High-Tech...
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בס''ד
Israel certainly does not need cheap foreign labor. These foreign workers are destroying the Jewish character of the nation. Jews have to learn how to work with their hands again. "Menial" jobs should be given to Jewish teenagers who want to earn a little money while going to school and who want to gain some early work experience. No one should be ashamed of any type of work. All work is honorable.
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this kind of thing happens in every single developed country. in israel it is africans/filipinos and probably arabs, in america its mexicans, in europe its eastern europeans and arab/turks. in every country it ends up hurting because politicians give away the country to the migrant workers.
id rather have filipinos who are known for good work ethic than arabs, turks or mexicans though
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בס''ד
Israel certainly does not need cheap foreign labor. These foreign workers are destroying the Jewish character of the nation. Jews have to learn how to work with their hands again. "Menial" jobs should be given to Jewish teenagers who want to earn a little money while going to school and who want to gain some early work experience. No one should be ashamed of any type of work. All work is honorable.
You're right Chaim. I think Americans also need to learn how to do this kind of work again too. I've heard there are many well-paying jobs available in the USA in professions like welding or mechanics, etc. but that many people are only seeking office jobs.
Now that is a great idea... I think Israel could outdo Silicon Valley when it comes to High-Tech...
Israel is really a great place for scientific and technical achievement. I'm always excited to know about what new things Israeli scientists have discovered.
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Israel is much like the United States in that her people are rapidly getting brainwashed into thinking that the immigrant or "refugee" issue is a matter of snivel-rights. Remember Nellie the Weasel's famous editorial in Ha'aretz last year? Most Israelis, being brainwashed, do not realize that Weasel and people like him are traitors--they just imagine that being a Holocaust survivor he should be taken seriously.
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Israel is much like the United States in that her people are rapidly getting brainwashed into thinking that the immigrant or "refugee" issue is a matter of snivel-rights. Remember Nellie the Weasel's famous editorial in Ha'aretz last year? Most Israelis, being brainwashed, do not realize that Weasel and people like him are traitors--they just imagine that being a Holocaust survivor he should be taken seriously.
Of course if these immigrants would just accept status of Ger, being a resident alien, or convert to Judaism then there is no problem.
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You really think Africans (many of whom are Muslims) will convert to Judaism?
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You really think Africans (many of whom are Muslims) will convert to Judaism?
I don't care if they do or they don't. As I stated originally I believe that the Torahs method of dealing with 'resident strangers' or 'Gerim' is the correct way to deal with it. If they don't convert they are not full citizens. As I said I do know several 'African Americans' who have converted according to Orthodox standards.
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So you think they need to stay in Israel. Okay.