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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Circus Boy on December 26, 2011, 10:10:46 PM
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BBC News Middle East
26 December 2011 Last updated at 19:17 ET
Beit Shemesh ultra-orthodox Jews clash with police
Disputes between ultra-orthodox and secular Jews have been becoming more frequent
Ultra-orthodox Jews have clashed with police in the Israeli town of Beit Shemesh, near Jerusalem.
One police officer was slightly hurt and a number of Orthodox Jews detained, say reports.
The town has become a focus of friction between secular Jews and ultra-Orthodox men demanding strict gender segregation and "modest" dress for women.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed on Sunday to end attempts to enforce segregation of the sexes.
The latest clashes came as police attempted to remove one of several signs in the town ordering segregation between the sexes.
Some 300 ultra-Orthodox residents pelted the police with stones and eggs, slightly injuring one officer, and rubbish bins were set on fire.
A television crew attempting to film in the town were also surrounded and harassed - the second alleged attack in two days on journalists.
On Sunday, a crew from Channel 2 news were attacked as they were filming, say reports, with rocks allegedly thrown at their van.
The alleged assault came days after Channel 2 aired a story about an eight-year-old American girl, Naama Margolese, who said she was afraid to walk to school because ultra-orthodox men shouted at her.
The broadcast has inflamed secular opinion, with activists planning to hold a rally in Beit Shemesh on Tuesday to counter what they say is intimidation by sections of the ultra-orthodox community.
The case of Naama Margolese has shocked many Israelis
Some ultra-orthodox Jews will also reportedly be joining the rally in an effort to distance themselves from "extremists".
Unnamed ultra-orthodox activists from Beit Shemesh issued a statement condemning the violence, but also accusing the media of initiating "deliberate provocations in order to make the peaceful, quiet and tolerant residents, who live their lives according to their beliefs, look bad".
Such clashes have become more frequent in Israel in recent years as the authorities have challenged efforts by ultra-Orthodox Jews to segregate women in public places.
Other recent points of contention include demands for separate seating areas for women on buses and a recent case of some soldiers who refused to remain at a performance by female singers.
Mr Netanyahu has ordered a crackdown on segregation, saying harassment and discrimination have no place in a liberal democracy.
Ultra-orthodox Jews make up 10% of the population in Israel. The community has a high birth rate and is growing rapidly.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16335603
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4166659,00.html
Can anybody who is well versed in the situation explain it?
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We have been discussing the issue of the 'extremists' in a couple of threads:
This thread has digressed from the original topic { thanks to me :( }
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,59000.0.html
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This was a very unflattering article on MSNBC, I don't know whether it's just propaganda or if they are really harassing Jewish girls which don't follow their ultra strict guidelines:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45794260/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/
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Unless they are absolute Nazi monsters like Muslims, the Satmar, or replacement-theologians, I am inclined to side with religious people over secular every single time regardless of what the facts are. We keep hearing all this outcry over how terrible these orthodox Jews are being to average women/girls but you never hear about how the Russian Gentile stormtroopers employed by the Israeli government to bash heads in at protests rape Israeli girls.
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Unless they are absolute Nazi monsters like Muslims, the Satmar, or replacement-theologians, I am inclined to side with religious people over secular every single time regardless of what the facts are. We keep hearing all this outcry over how terrible these orthodox Jews are being to average women/girls but you never hear about how the Russian Gentile stormtroopers employed by the Israeli government to bash heads in at protests rape Israeli girls.
You left out Neturei Karta!!
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You left out Neturei Karta!!
Actually Satmar is the parent sect of Neturei Karta..
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Actually Satmar is the parent sect of Neturei Karta..
Not sure if exactly (at least not what NK claims) but those thugs in Beit Shemesh are actually worse than Satmar. While Satmar for the most part are passively anti-zionists, they are actively fighting Jews in the way they can (spitting, cursing, intimidation of the community at large).
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Not sure if exactly (at least not what NK claims) but those thugs in Beit Shemesh are actually worse than Satmar. While Satmar for the most part are passively anti-zionists, they are actively fighting Jews in the way they can (spitting, cursing, intimidation of the community at large).
I stand corrected... They are confused because they both are anti-zionist...
according to the wiki page:
It is this role that Neturei Karta see themselves as fulfilling by defending what they believe is "the position of the Torah and authentic unadulterated Judaism."[6] Neturei Karta is sometimes confused with Satmar, due to both being anti-Zionist. They are separate groups and have had disagreements.
For the most part, the members of Neturei Karta are descended from Hungarian Jews who settled in Jerusalem's Old City in the early nineteenth century, and from Lithuanian Jews who were students of the Gaon of Vilna (known as Perushim), who had settled earlier. In the late nineteenth century, their ancestors participated in the creation of new neighborhoods outside the city walls to alleviate overcrowding in the Old City, and most are now concentrated in the neighborhood of Batei Ungarin and the larger Meah Shearim neighborhood.
At the time, they were vocal opponents to the new political ideology of Zionism that was attempting to assert Jewish sovereignty in Ottoman-controlled Palestine. They resented the new arrivals, who were predominantly secular and anti-religious, and asserted that Jewish redemption could only be brought about by the Jewish messiah.
Other Orthodox Jewish movements, including some who oppose Zionism, have denounced the activities of the radical branch of Neturei Karta. According to The Guardian, "[e]ven among Charedi, or ultra-Orthodox circles, the Neturei Karta are regarded as a wild fringe".[7] Neturei Karta asserts that the mass media deliberately downplays their viewpoint and makes them out to be few in number. Their protests in America are usually attended by, at most, a few dozen people. In Israel, several hundred is typical, depending on the nature of the protest and its location.[8]
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Hungarians maybe not soo much (as Satmar are as well), but I find it hard to believe that they are the Perushim from the students of the Vilna Gaon.
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We have been discussing the issue of the 'extremists' in a couple of threads:
This thread has digressed from the original topic { thanks to me :( }
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,59000.0.html
Please do not purposely drive threads off onto tangents. There are people here who intend to discuss certain topics. If you wish to make other threads and draw attention to other topics with other, new threads, go right ahead. To purposely derail a conversation because it makes you uncomfortable is really improper protocol for the forum, IMO.
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This was a very unflattering article on MSNBC, I don't know whether it's just propaganda or if they are really harassing Jewish girls which don't follow their ultra strict guidelines:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45794260/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/
That really did happen though. They are months late with the story. (although I can't see the date anywhere on the article). They picked up on the "protests" and now are trying to drive a wedge into religious Jews with their story, but unfortunately this incident and similar ones really did happen in RBS.
Btw, take a look at the girl and her mother in the picture. BOTH ARE OBVIOUSLY RELIGIOUS! So there is no doubt that the thugs involved are villainous and are targeting people no matter if they are religious, zionist, secular, or even haredi, depending on the situation.
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Unless they are absolute Nazi monsters like Muslims, the Satmar, or replacement-theologians, I am inclined to side with religious people over secular every single time regardless of what the facts are. We keep hearing all this outcry over how terrible these orthodox Jews are being to average women/girls but you never hear about how the Russian Gentile stormtroopers employed by the Israeli government to bash heads in at protests rape Israeli girls.
Look at the picture. The woman and her daugher are religious Jews!
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Please do not purposely drive threads off onto tangents. There are people here who intend to discuss certain topics. If you wish to make other threads and draw attention to other topics with other, new threads, go right ahead. To purposely derail a conversation because it makes you uncomfortable is really improper protocol for the forum, IMO.
Huh? We were discussing this in the other thread before he even posted this.... What is this about 'purposely derail a conversation because it makes you uncomfortable'?
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I think he means how out of nowhere you came up with a diss against Christmas shopping, remember?
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Huh? We were discussing this in the other thread before he even posted this.... What is this about 'purposely derail a conversation because it makes you uncomfortable'?
You wrote: This thread has digressed from the original topic { thanks to me
I thought you were implying you purposely changed the subject. Notice that I quoted you above my statement that requested you not to change subjects. If you were not actually purposely changing the subject to a tangent, then please ignore my request. But if so, please explain what you meant by saying the thread digressed from the original topic thanks to you.
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You wrote: This thread has digressed from the original topic { thanks to me
I thought you were implying you purposely changed the subject. Notice that I quoted you above my statement that requested you not to change subjects. If you were not actually purposely changing the subject to a tangent, then please ignore my request. But if so, please explain what you meant by saying the thread digressed from the original topic thanks to you.
Im sorry... I meant that I felt like I had changed the topic in the thread I linked to.... Enough about this... Sorry for the misunderstanding..
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I think he means how out of nowhere you came up with a diss against Christmas shopping, remember?
Here you go again... I said that I am sick of the rampant consumerism which I witnessed this last week. I don't care what holiday it is. I said nothing about Christmas...
In response to your comment about the 'Matrix' I expounded by stating that the media, the TV and the Movies, are capable of making people feel like they are lacking and often inspire them to get things which they do not need. I feel that by detaching from the TV and Movies I am not subject to these forces and thus I am 'out of the matrix' so to speak...
Im sorry you think its all about Christmas... But its not...
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I do think we need to stick to topic for sure KWR. I think there have been an awful lot of threads on this particular subject but so be it. I am not really qualified to discuss the matter that was the original topic but I am always inclined to trust that Chaim knows what is going on in Israel, and what he is talking about in general. Therefore I made a comment that generally whatever the opposite of what the NWO media says about something is true. Currently the NWO media is talking nonstop about so-called Jewish "zealots" and "extremists" that are harassing girls for no reason. That raises a whole lot of red flags for me. I said that we live in a real-life Matrix regarding deception by the powers-that-be (meaning the NWO) and Muman came out with a rather strange remark that appeared to be about Christmas shopping (but would also extend to Hanukkah shopping). It later turned into a specific discussion on Air Jordan shoes and whether or not black culture had anything to do with shoe-crazed mobs (Lisa said it did, Muman denied this). I didn't find the lengthy distraction to be offensive or inappropriate really but I definitely agree that it completely changed the course of the thread from its intended purpose.
So... back to topic, I find it hard to believe that religious Jews are making life hell for innocent Jewish girls all across the state of Israel. Can we all agree on that?
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Currently the NWO media is talking nonstop about so-called Jewish "zealots" and "extremists" that are harassing girls for no reason.
So... back to topic, I find it hard to believe that religious Jews are making life hell for innocent Jewish girls all across the state of Israel. Can we all agree on that?
1) Before the media was talking about it- myself, Kahane was right Bt, and many other knew about this subject, and what is going on. Also for me, and I believe for him and others as well the media did not affect or change our opinions at all they just decided to report on it now.
2) I dont call them "religious Jews" just people who dress like some religious Jews who are affecting other religious Jews.
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I do think we need to stick to topic for sure KWR. I think there have been an awful lot of threads on this particular subject but so be it. I am not really qualified to discuss the matter that was the original topic but I am always inclined to trust that Chaim knows what is going on in Israel, and what he is talking about in general. Therefore I made a comment that generally whatever the opposite of what the NWO media says about something is true. Currently the NWO media is talking nonstop about so-called Jewish "zealots" and "extremists" that are harassing girls for no reason. That raises a whole lot of red flags for me. I said that we live in a real-life Matrix regarding deception by the powers-that-be (meaning the NWO) and Muman came out with a rather strange remark that appeared to be about Christmas shopping (but would also extend to Hanukkah shopping). It later turned into a specific discussion on Air Jordan shoes and whether or not black culture had anything to do with shoe-crazed mobs (Lisa said it did, Muman denied this). I didn't find the lengthy distraction to be offensive or inappropriate really but I definitely agree that it completely changed the course of the thread from its intended purpose.
So... back to topic, I find it hard to believe that religious Jews are making life hell for innocent Jewish girls all across the state of Israel. Can we all agree on that?
However, I know people in RBS who confirm to me it is a real problem, and I knew about this before the mass reports in the media. Sometimes a broken clock is right, and the media is picking up on old facts, in order to paint all religious Jews and Judaism negatively, but facts nonetheless regardless of what evil purpose they are using them for. So it's an unfortunate situation, but it's a bunch of young thugs who cause trouble, it's not the entire charedi population in RBS, not even close!
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I know that the vast, vast majority of devout Jews in Israel do not harass people. But that is what the NWO media is claiming right now and that is why I believe that this story is either way overblown or a complete lie.
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Let me put it this way. The NWO media is also claiming, all of the time, that so-called "settler extremists" are harassing and "committing atrocities against" Fakestinians as well. Is that true? (I wish it were.)
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BTW, take a look at how a haredi rabbi (and esteemed author btw), Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn, of Har Nof, has spoken about this issue on his blog:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2011/12/disgusting-chilul-hashem-spitting-on-7.html
He calls it a disgusting chillul hashem, and there is an accompanying video. So to call any criticism of these thugs an "attack on haredim" is clearly wrong. And if that's what Chaim is implying, sorry to say, he is wrong. Rabbi Eidensohn does not attack haredim, he is haredi himself, and he is appalled by what these youths are doing. All reasonable haredim and reasonable people of any kind should be appalled by their harrassment of little girls. It's truly insane.
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I know that the vast, vast majority of devout Jews in Israel do not harass people. But that is what the NWO media is claiming right now and that is why I believe that this story is either way overblown or a complete lie.
You are correct this is overblown by the world media, but nevertheless this is important to fight against regardless. Most probably are deliberately painting the wrong picture. But this one is good though and describes it properly- that these are fring extremists against Religious Orthodox Jews.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/12/27/israeli-girl-draws-thousands-online-supporters-after-being-harassed-by-jewish/
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Let me put it this way. The NWO media is also claiming, all of the time, that so-called "settler extremists" are harassing and "committing atrocities against" Fakestinians as well. Is that true? (I wish it were.)
If it was true, and then the media reported it, it wouldn't convert it into being untrue. Either it happened or it didn't. (in whatever specific instance).
These events happening in RBS were already known about and were true. Now the media is jumping on it to use as a platform for attacking religious Jews and Judaism. That does not make the original events untrue!
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Does anyone have a link describing, impartially, what the original incident in Beit Shemesh was about?
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Does anyone have a link describing, impartially, what the original incident in Beit Shemesh was about?
their were many incidents but this happened in August-September (with links to even earlier as well).
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2011/09/terrorism-in-bet-shemesh.html
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Didn't Chaim see these videos and conclude that there was provocation in them?
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Didn't Chaim see these videos and conclude that there was provocation in them?
I do not know what he did or did not see, I know he commented on the first part of the first video, but at last at the time did not know the background that was going on. But either way if he says that its a provocation, I do not agree with him on this.
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Chaim is not Charedi at all and he has many differences with them. If he is more or less taking their side, don't you think he has reason to?
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Here could be a reason why chaim takes the side of the charedi over the media.
Shimoen peressite is rallying all non ultra orthodox Israelis against this group. Just like the housing crisis, the fake right and evil left are taking control of this topic to unite the majority of Israelis.
It will not surprise me if the same methods are used to cause support for expulsion of Jews from yehuda vi shomron.
It is important to expose the evil media. However in this instance, we should not condone so called "religious" extremism by these Jews who destroy the beauty of true Torah Judaism. I'm just not sure where chaim stands on that issue. As Jews, how far is it appropriate to create a fence from the Torah. Maybe muman, Kwrbt, and tag can answer this question as well.
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Chaim is not Charedi at all and he has many differences with them. If he is more or less taking their side, don't you think he has reason to?
Personally, I think he is reacting defensively to defend "all charedim" as a group because they are being attacked in whole by the media. But what thugs and mafiosos have done in RBS and other places (for example, Manny's bookstore), is not representative of all haredim. And so if he is by extension defending the thugs too, since he feels haredim are being attacked, I think he is making an incorrect assumption about what is taking place here and making a mistake.
Something along the lines of this: He seems to be saying - the media are once again attacking haredim unfairly, therefore their claims are false and inflammatory and shouldn't be given credibility because it causes more strife among Jews.
But I am saying : The media are using REAL EVENTS, that actually took place, by a small number of so-called "zealots" and using those to paint an entire community of haredim and then attack haredim. Of course we should not give any credibility to an attack on haredim as a whole. But the original events really did take place and are a real problem. And the thugs who did them (they happen to be people who identify as haredi, but I don't really care what they call themselves and would condemn their behavior regardless of label), need to be stopped and controlled because they are getting out of hand and causing trauma for religious Jews and secular Jewish neighbors.
Parents and volunteers who have to escort children home from school to protect them from jeers, spit, and curses of some so-called "zealots" are not part of a media conspiracy to create negative press image for religious Jews (most of them are religious Jews themselves!). They certainly would rather not have to do this sort of thing and that their children would not be traumatized.
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Compare it to this-
Suppose their were people who called themselves "Kahanists" yett did things contrary to the teaching of Rav Kahane. For example, suppose these "Kahanists" were to spitt at Breslov Hassidic kids telling them that they need to shave off their payos.
Then the media comes in and reports on these "Kahanists". Would you say, well the media is against them and they happen to call themselves Kahanists soo we need to support them (these Kahanists by name)? Or would you say that these people are wrong, they do not represent Kahanists and are going contrary to the teachings of Rav Kahane and must be fought against.
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Tag and Kwrbt..bottom line we are a movement that tells the truth. And the justice we hope for is even handed. We condemn evil behavior.
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Personally, I think he is reacting defensively to defend "all charedim" as a group because they are being attacked in whole by the media. But what thugs and mafiosos have done in RBS and other places (for example, Manny's bookstore), is not representative of all haredim. And so if he is by extention defending the thugs too, since he feels haredim are being attacked, I think he is making an incorrect assumption about what is taking place here and making a mistake.
Something along the lines of this: He seems to be saying - the media are once again attacking haredim unfairly, therefore their claims are false and inflammatory and shouldn't be given credibility because it causes more strife among Jews.
But I am saying : The media are using REAL EVENTS, that actually took place, by a small number of so-called "zealots" and using those to paint an entire community of haredim and then attack haredim. Of course we should not give any credibility to an attack on haredim as a whole. But the original events really did take place and are a real problem. And the thugs who did them (they happen to be people who identify as haredi, but I don't really care what they call themselves and would condemn their behavior regardless of label), need to be stopped and controlled because they are getting out of hand and causing trauma for religious Jews and secular Jewish neighbors.
Parents and volunteers who have to escort children home from school to protect them from jeers, spit, and curses of some so-called "zealots" are not part of a media conspiracy to create negative press image for religious Jews (most of them are religious Jews themselves!). They certainly would rather not have to do this sort of thing and that their children would not be traumatized.
I agree... The video posted yesterday left me very ill at ease... As I watched the little kids walk by in the video with all that caterwauling going on it made me quite upset... Someone should grasp the bull by the horns and put a stop to protests that involve little children... I though the main problem Israel had is Arab influx not grade school children who dress like children.
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It will not surprise me if the same methods are used to cause support for expulsion of Jews from yehuda vi shomron.
You see that the Israeli nightly news was able to get the whole country against the owners of the Peace House by painting them as "religious zealots" after all. They aren't stupid. They know that most secular Israelis don't have a high opinion of religion and are not easy to be swayed against it.
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You see that the Israeli nightly news was able to get the whole country against the owners of the Peace House by painting them as "religious zealots" after all. They aren't stupid. They know that most secular Israelis don't have a high opinion of religion and are not easy to be swayed against it.
What Peace house? I don't understand.
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Parents and volunteers who have to escort children home from school to protect them from jeers, spit, and curses of some so-called "zealots" are not part of a media conspiracy to create negative press image for religious Jews (most of them are religious Jews themselves!). They certainly would rather not have to do this sort of thing and that their children would not be traumatized.
So basically you are saying that there is a small cultist fringe of Charedim.
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What Peace house? I don't understand.
The house that was legally purchased from an Arab, and then the Arab denied making the sale and demanded it back, and the Israeli courts ruled that it must be given back to the Arabs. The Israeli media painted the homeowners and the protesters who came out to support them as fanatical religious zealots and so most Israelis agreed that the home should be taken away from them.
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So basically you are saying that there is a small cultist fringe of Charedim.
There definitely is. I wouldn't call it 'cultist' cause I don't know that they have an actual ringleader or authority figure, but they are definitely nuts and behave accordingly.
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The house that was legally purchased from an Arab, and then the Arab denied making the sale and demanded it back, and the Israeli courts ruled that it must be given back to the Arabs. The Israeli media painted the homeowners and the protesters who came out to support them as fanatical religious zealots and so most Israelis agreed that the home should be taken away from them.
I found several references to 'Peace House' on A7...
Here is one story which discusses it:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135527#.Tvp2ckRSQYo
Hevron's Jews Confident in Legal Struggle for 'Peace House'
Hevron Jewish Community is preparing for the return of the Beit HaShalom (Peace House) building to Jewish hands. First hearing was this week.
The Jewish Community of Hevron has begun its legal battle, preparing for the return of the large building known as Beit HaShalom (Peace House) to Jewish hands. The first hearing was this week.
With the loss, a year ago, of the political battle to retain the Jewish-purchased building, the Hevron residents have moved on to the judicial front in the Jerusalem District Court, and are confident that their efforts will bear fruit – though it may take a while.
The story began in March 2007, when 200 Jews entered the 4-story, 3,600-sq.-meter Arab-built structure in the City of the Patriarchs. It had been purchased two years earlier, after a long process, by Morris Abraham of Brooklyn, New York, for $700,000.
The building overlooks the strategic road between Hevron and Kiryat Arba, named Worshippers’ Path in honor of the parade of Jews walking back and forth to the Machpelah Cave each week for Sabbath prayers.
After nearly two years of legal maneuvers, during which the residents were prevented from making minimal repairs to the building such as putting on windows, the Supreme Court finally ruled that the building must be emptied of the Jews until the issue of ownership could be resolved.
The ruling was harshly criticized as having ignored critical evidence, and even retired District Court Judge Uri Struzman – whose previous ruling was cited as a precedent by the Supreme Court justices – said that his precedent should have led to the opposite conclusion. “It is not at all strange that the settlers are screaming that justice has not been served, and that the judges’ political opinions were the basis for their decision," Struzman wrote.
Now, however, the ball is back in the courts, and the Hevron residents are confident. Miriam Fleishman, who gave birth to a daughter while living there, says, “We have hired Attorney Ze’ev Sharf, who specializes in cases of this nature, and we are convinced that we will win. At the first hearing, held this week, the judge ruled that the trial itself will begin in 45 days, and all testimonies and evidence will be presented to the court. We have written, audio and video testimony that we purchased the building legally.”
In addition, the Arab seller has changed his story three times. He first claimed that he never sold it, then said he sold the home but didn’t receive money for it, and finally ended up claiming that he sold the building and received payment, but he wants to retroactively cancel the sale.
Fleishman says that most of the Jewish belongings that had served the occupants are still there: “The army sealed up the building, and our property, such as beds, closets and the like, are still there. The army, too, knows that this is a strategic spot, and that’s why they are stationed there.”
The Hevron Jewish Community is experienced in long, arduous campaigns – legal and otherwise – to retrieve Jewish-owned property that has been confiscated from it, either by Arabs or by the army. “The Eternal People are not afraid of a long journey” is one of the principles that governs their pioneering lives.
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CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL ON HAREDI VIOLENCE ON TALKLINE TONIGHT Zev Brenner Show
Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 4:03 PM
CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL
RABBI YONAH METZGER
“ HAREDI VIOLENCE IN BEIT SHEMESH”
ON
TALKLINE WITH ZEV BRENNER,
Wed Dec 28
9 PM - 10 PM ET
WSNR 620 AM METRO NY,
www.talklinecommunications.com