JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 30, 2012, 10:40:30 AM
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http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/component/content/article/34-featured/586-kzayit-rashi-almost-certainly-never-saw-an-olive
More on the Kzait issue.
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2010/03/evolution-of-olive.html
(A lot more available,maybe will post later).
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Great article. Those who scarf down massive portions (and force guests to do the same) are clearly mistaken and missing the point of the seder. They have morphed what chazal intended by "kezayith" into something unrecognizable.
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Great article. Those who scarf down massive portions (and force guests to do the same) are clearly mistaken and missing the point of the seder. They have morphed what chazal intended by "kezayith" into something unrecognizable.
Definitly. The messed up part is that I hear almost yearly how we the masses, and our parents and grandparents have been doing it wrong all these years and how we really should be stuffing 8 or 9 times the amount of Massa every part of the seder requiring eating Massa. Also even perhaps double (the already gigantic amount of ~28 cc (or grams) in order to get everyone's opinion on this matter.
Thank G-D we stoped this already (at least from last year) and don't do such unnecessary and tasking thing.
And I do have family who are not religious and they go to others houses , and they do complain about Pessah and how much it sucks that they are being forced to shove Massa down their throats to the point of wanting to barf. I tell them its not necessary and pointless and those who force such things do something not necessary + they make the holiday a ritual that everyone wishes to end and leave.
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Shiur on this
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/192-when-judaism-becomes-divorced-from-reality-part-1
(also some of the biggest Rabbanim including Rav Dov Lior amoung others, spoke of this recently- audio in Hebew)
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Ive never had any problem eating Matzah at any Chabad seder. That is not to say that there arent those who don't know how much to eat. But an olive is not a very big volume...
It is important to remember that we are not to eat Chametz for the entire seven days of Pesach. I am getting two boxes of Shmurah matzah for this week...
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Ive never had any problem eating Matzah at any Chabad seder. That is not to say that there arent those who don't know how much to eat. But an olive is not a very big volume...
Just out of curiosity (just to get a sample of opinions) what do you mean by that statement? Is it like us or something else? About how many cc's (or grams? do you eat)?
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I posted about this in last years discussion on the topic @ http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,58586.msg526970.html#msg526970 . But in that discussion the question about how many cc's in an olive was not addressed. I do not know off hand but found this discussion which addresses it:
http://www.berachot.org/halacha/13_shiurkazayis.html
2. How much is a Shiur K’zayis
K’zayis means that the item is the size of an olive. The Shulchan Aruch states that this shiur is a measurement of cubic volume, and explains that volume is measured by submerging an item in water and measuring the amount of water that it displaces.
Some Poskim are of the opinion that the shiur of k’zayis is based on the actual size of an average contemporary olive. Olives are graded into seven sizes from “Small” (.10 of one fluid once) to “Super Colossal” (.50 of one once). The middle size, “Extra Large”, has a volume of .20 of one fluid once. According to this view, the shiur is quite small, the displacement of about 1/5 of one fl. oz.
The Shulchan Aruch gives the shiur in relation to the size of an average egg. The average egg will displace slightly less then 2 fluid ounces. The Shulchan Aruch states that, in view of some rishonim, a k’zayis is equal to approximately one third of an average egg while other rishonim say the shiur k’zayis is equal to half an egg.
The Mishna Berura and most Poskim rule that with regard to brocha achrona we adopt the most stringent view, not to make a brocha achrona unless one ate an amount equal to ½ an egg.
The shiur k’zayis is defined as an item containing slightly less then one fluid once (more precisely .96 of fl. oz.) It could also be measured as 28.8 cubic centimeters.
IMPORTANT NOTE: The Mishna Berura recommends that one should avoid eating an amount for which the brocha achrona requirement is questionable. He may eat the volume of a once or more and unquestionably make a brocha achrona. He may eat the volume of less then half a fl. oz. and not make a brocha achrona. However, he should try to avoid eating between a half fl. oz and one fl. oz., because the brocha achrona requirement for that in-between amount is questionable.
The question of this discussion is not about how much Matzah to eat on Pesach but more specifically whether a blessing is required on a bread meal...
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Muman thanks for addressing my question to you. 1 thing I do not understand from your responses is- first you say
"But an olive is not a very big volume..."
and we agree, totally. But then you say (as is many times said today) "It could also be measured as 28.8 cubic centimeters."
Do you know what that size is? It is ~ 1 square machine Massa. That is not a lot for you? (or for anyone) And you do realize that their are a number of times to eat that amount (according to your assesment) on the seder night(s) . Soo you'll be having at least a couple of those on each night (forgot the exact number but maybe 3,4 or 5 times it says to have a "Kzait"). Even 3 square massas at one night is not much? + the other foods.
You said earlier
"That is not to say that there arent those who don't know how much to eat. "
That was precisly the point of me making this thread. We say that the amount you stated is not the correct one and the requirement is farrrr less. Literally Kzait- "like an (average) olive" which is 3-5 cc, and not 28 cc, or even 2ce that amount as said by some.
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I was just reading an article from the Chayas website on Mishneh Torah vs. Shulchan Aruch and it brought up the problem of olive size:
http://www.chayas.com/shulchanar.htm
Actually their are those who claim that the Rambam said that a Kzait is ~17 cc (if I remember correctly) and this should be for the old and sick. But in fact it is not true of the Rambam, nor the Shulhan Aruch in this case. Either way their souldn't be this ___vs.____ attitude. Nor of necessarily choosing one and only 1 possik over another. BUT Halacha should be the quest for truth and going with the most logical and correct conclusions based on sources and logic. And their are cases where the Rambam doesn't seem correct and is overrulled by many other Rishonim, their shouldn't be a reason (for todays poskim to decide) not to go by the other Rishonim over the Rambam, or the Shulhan Aruch, or any of the other great Hachamim and writings of the sages of Israel.
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It is my humble opinion that a person should eat at least the minimum amount {The current olive sized volume} in order to fulfill the mitzvah of eating Matzah on Seder Pesach. But I also believe that since we should want to 'beautify the mitzvah' we should not only eat the minimum amount. Since we are not to eat Chametz/Leaven for the entire Chag we should not just eat the minimal amount and instead we should try to feel what Matzah is supposed to remind us about.
I really dont understand the need to argue about this volume. Once again remember how the minhag/custom fits into Jewish ritual. Just last Shabbat my Rabbi was discussing how different shuls have different minhagim, and that when attending a shul with different minhagim that we should not complain that the shuls minhag is wrong {if it is not a mistake and truly a custom of the shul}.
Is there an absolute value which we should eat? I don't really know. Is it important? In the case of the minimal amount of matzah to eat in order to satisfy the mitzvah of eating matzah it may be. But I have no problem eating the minimal amount, and I often eat matzah at least once every day of the Chag...
I suppose the question should be posed to whoever is leading the seder you are attending. And I am not arguing, I believe that these questions are good for us to understand the halacha and inspire others to ask other questions...
http://www.webshas.org/kelal/mitzvah/berovam.htm
http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-date/2006/04/?p=1114
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"It is my humble opinion that a person should eat at least the minimum amount {The current olive sized volume}"
That is the Halacha by all (in theory). We say as observed and known through logic and actually seeing olives that the amount is 3-5 cc. 6cc at most.
"But I also believe that since we should want to 'beautify the mitzvah' we should not only eat the minimum amount."
How is stuffing a lot Massa to the point of sometimes feeling sick and bloated, and forcing others to do the same in some cases beauitifying the Miswaah?
Also those who maintain its 28cc (or more) don't mention "Hiddur Misswah" but speak of it being "Halacha lemaaseh" which is not the truth.
"I really dont understand the need to argue about this volume."
I do. First of all it makes the Torah look bad when such innacurite positions are maintained. Secondly its making life difficult for the public, completly unneccessarily. Instead of the seder being what its supposed to be- a night of passing over the tradition of parents to children mainly with the Haggasah including doing some thing like eating (some) Matsa anhaving a normal meal, here its focusing on eating that is unnecessary and only makes (many) people sick and/or annoyed and just wanting to be finished with it. Imagine as well the enormous cultural damage it can have as well. Instead of little Jews (and older as well) getting a great experience on the night having bad ones instead. How excited would they be in passing over such a tradition then to the next generation. Perhaps this leads to doing things out of rott and eventually the dropping the the tradition almost or alltoger as well, in seeing the whole thing as a burden and meaningless, unrational rituals.
"Once again remember how the minhag/custom fits into Jewish ritual."
Yes, in fact many have/had a practice of just passing normal pieces of Massa around the table. BUT some today try to tell the public (and I have seen this year after year) that they are wrong, soo were their parents and grandparents.
"I suppose the question should be posed to whoever is leading the seder you are attending. "
I will be B"H, and thank G-D I say the correct shiur. In fact we have and will have olives on the table as well. Last year when we had guests, I was asked, but didn't the Rabbi say 30 grams at least, I said yes and I quickly explained that its wrong what he said. I said that anyone who wishes to go by how they view things can do soo without any problems on my part. I believe they were much happier with what I said (at least in this thing) and did follow it. Had I not known the Halacha and thought it was 28 cc (or grams) and say it to them as well, they would just not follow it (remember for every part as well) and just thought that they are not following the Halacha (as happened in past years some years ago) where they just said no (or just didn't east any more).
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Ok, you are entitled to do that... I guess I just have not experienced a problem like you suggest.
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Ok, you are entitled to do that... I guess I just have not experienced a problem like you suggest.
Okay. Soo on the first (and second in galut) nights you are able to drink 4 cups on wine (no argument on this) + eat at least 120 grams of Massa (the Massa in the beginning + the Korach (Sandwich-really supposed to be swarma) Massa with the other foods like the marror + the Afikoman +the extra Massa for the remeberence of the Korban Pessah + the meal that we are supposed to have (different foods + Massa as well)
and with all that you physically feel fine? If you do by all means but I have a hard time believing soo.
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Here is an article which discusses many of the opinions explaining why the size of a kazayit has morphed over the generations.
http://koltorah.org/ravj/shiurimONpesach.htm
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Quote from: muman613 on April 01, 2012, 11:55:42 PM
This article is also covers all the opinions...
http://koltorah.org/ravj/shiurimONpesach.htm
Actually wrong thread to begin with (this has to do with Kzait). And no, it does NOT cover all the opinions. I skimmed through it and I see it covers the (wrong) large opinion as to the size of the olive and then DOUBLES the already enormous size. It is partly understandable how people some years ago in Europe made such mistakes (thinking eggs were larger where in fact the eggs were much smaller and not knowing what an olive is) but today it is clearly obvious to any normal rational human being.
Anyway I suggest you read the article origionally posted. It addresses oall of these errors that arose in Europe especially where the didn't have olives and how such enormous amounts came to be. And anyway soo then do you double the already large 28.8 grams you mentioned earler for each of the meals parts?
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From Muman
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The statement says that it is the size of an olive, but various opinions increased the size to a fraction of an egg. I believe that it is the size of a current olive, and that is what our minhag is at the seders I have attended.
And I apologize for saying it has all the opinions, it is obvious that there are more opinions on the topic than are listed in that article.
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My reply
No olive is 28.8 cc and especially not the size of an egg. Don't you have olives in your local grocery? I (and before you say maybe a large one) the sages said not a large one and not a small one but a medium one. And these strains are still here today, some of these trees are standing from 3,000 years ago!
Look at olives today, and yess they are the exact same olives as their were before (and even had they not been the Geonim said that a person should determine according to the olives that he sees) the average one's are ~3-5 cc, how will you (or the article) and others claim that you are going by the size of an olive and at the same time claim that the size is at the minimum 28 cc ? I see this as ludacrise and completly irrational. How can these people who claim as such really be relied upon as Hachamim and ones who can lead a normal Jewish society? (That is even the greater issue here).
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Here is an article which discusses many of the opinions explaining why the size of a kazayit has morphed over the generations.
http://koltorah.org/ravj/shiurimONpesach.htm
I read it and honestly it doesn't address the question, not at all. It only discusses the alreasdy large vs. the even larger sizes (going from point c to point d while skipping a and b). For a comprehensive discuss and history of this including "points A and B, and C and D as well)" check this article its a free download (usually some of his larger essays you need to donate, but this one is free)
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2010/03/evolution-of-olive.html
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"It is my humble opinion that a person should eat at least the minimum amount {The current olive sized volume}"
Yepp and this is the current and former olive, was and still is.
http://www.zootorah.com/RationalistJudaism/MatzahMarorChart.pdf
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Shiur by HaRav Dov Lior Shalitta on K'Zait being K Zait (like an olive).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB3VRHZF_V8
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2013/03/the-popularity-of-olives.html
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Rav Abadi on the shiur of a K Zait
The measurement for a "Kazait," which is the size of the Matzah and Maror required to eat by the different periods during the Seder, is about 1/6th of a square machine Matzah. For round hand made ones, use your judgment, since each one is a little different.
(For the link where this was written AND the laws of Pessah as well).
http://kashrut.org/halacha/?law=pesach
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""Hacham Ben Sion Abba Shaul (Israel, 1923-1998) addresses this question in his work of responsa Or Le’sion (vol. 3, 15:13; listen to audio recording for precise citation). He writes that ideally, one should place the two Kezetim of Masa in his mouth all at once, chew it very well, and then swallow it. Ideally, one should swallow all the Masa at once. If this is too difficult, one should swallow one Kezayit, and then swallow the rest afterward."
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=1800
If someone can source this - meaning bring the opinion from a Gemarah or something, even better.
Now I would like to ask those who in any way think an olive is about 30 grams how would this be possible? If we go with olives being about 5cc (or about 5 grams) very easy and possible, but with 30x2= 60 grams of Massa being swallowed at once? I see a great recipe to getting choked.
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""Hacham Ben Sion Abba Shaul (Israel, 1923-1998) addresses this question in his work of responsa Or Le’sion (vol. 3, 15:13; listen to audio recording for precise citation). He writes that ideally, one should place the two Kezetim of Masa in his mouth all at once, chew it very well, and then swallow it. Ideally, one should swallow all the Masa at once. If this is too difficult, one should swallow one Kezayit, and then swallow the rest afterward."
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=1800
If someone can source this - meaning bring the opinion from a Gemarah or something, even better.
Now I would like to ask those who in any way think an olive is about 30 grams how would this be possible? If we go with olives being about 5cc (or about 5 grams) very easy and possible, but with 30x2= 60 grams of Massa being swallowed at once? I see a great recipe to getting choked.
I cannot answer your question about this but in the short search I just did it seems this Rabbi 'Hacham Ben Sion Abba Shaul' is brought by Rabbi Eli Mansour to answer several questions.
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1655
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1653
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1804
Otherwise I can find very little about his sefer 'Or Le'sion' in my web search..
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I am just learning about this Chacham... Here is some biographical information about him:
http://www.torah.org/learning/hamaayan/5768/matos.html
R' Ben Zion Abba Shaul z"l
R' Ben Zion Abba Shaul was born in Yerushalayim in 1924 to R' Eliyahu, an immigrant from Persia, and his wife, Benaya. Although a shoemaker by trade, R' Eliyahu was also a dedicated scholar. Benaya, too, valued Torah study; when she was pregnant with the future R' Ben Zion, she asked every scholar she met to bless her that her son should grow up to be a talmid chacham.
At age 11, young Ben Zion entered Yeshivat Porat Yosef. His first teacher was R' Yehuda Sadkah, who taught a class of young prodigies that also included the future Chief Rabbi and renowned posek R' Ovadiah Yosef. R' Ben Zion continued to progress to the highest class taught by R' Ezra Attiah. Eventually, R' Ben Zion himself became rosh yeshiva.
When R' Ben Zion was about 20 years old, one of the leading American sages, R' Eliezer Silver, came to Yeshivat Porat Yosef in the company of a wealthy American who was investigating which yeshiva was most worthy of his sizable donation. R' Ben Zion was chosen as the student to be tested by R' Silver, who asked the young scholar a question in the obscure area of Taharot (laws of ritual purity). When R' Ben Zion gave his answer, R' Silver said that he had asked the same question 40 years earlier to R' Meir Simcha Hakohen of Dvinsk (author of Ohr Sameach and Meshech Chochmah) and had received the same answer. R' Ben Zion later told R' Attiah that he had a second answer to the question as well, but since the first answer sufficed to secure the donation, offering a second answer might have been considered showing-off.
R' Ben Zion was recognized by Ashkenazic and Sephardic scholars alike for his "amelut" (inadequately translated "effort" or "toil") at Torah study. It is said that when he finished delivering a Torah lecture, he would inevitably be soaked with perspiration. His hatmadah / diligence also was legendary. As a young married man, he lived next door to R' Ovadiah Yosef and even their walks to and from yeshiva together would be occupied with reviewing pages of Talmud by heart.
R' Ben Zion encouraged the study of kabbalah, but only for those who had purified their character traits. He used to say, "If a man doesn't know how to get along with his wife, how can he learn kabbalah and be called a mekubal?"
Besides his scholarship, R' Ben Zion was known for giving blessings that were fulfilled. When asked why he had this ability, he responded humbly, "Hashem promised Avraham that anyone who blesses Avraham's descendants will be blessed. When people come to me for blessings, they kiss my hand, which is a form of blessing to me. Thus, they themselves are blessed."
R' Ben Zion passed away on 19 Tammuz 5758 (1998). (Aleppo: City of Scholars p.83)
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No Muman, I know who this Rav was. That was not my point. I wanted to know if and where it (to eat it all in one shot) is sourced in the Talmudh and sages about eating it all in one shot. Now that I think of it, I do vagually remember an opinion I believe by Beit Shamai that says such a thing. I am pressed for time right now soo perhaps I will search and find it later (and share it here as well).
My point is that one can only eat the volume of an olive (or 2) at one shot when the size of the olive is actually an olive and not when it is this gigantic measurement some thought it out to be.
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It is my humble opinion that a person should eat at least the minimum amount {The current olive sized volume} in order to fulfill the mitzvah of eating Matzah on Seder Pesach. But I also believe that since we should want to 'beautify the mitzvah'
. No one is required to beautify anything.
we should not only eat the minimum amount. Since we are not to eat Chametz/Leaven for the entire Chag we should not just eat the minimal amount and instead we should try to feel what Matzah is supposed to remind us about.
Who is going to have a whole meal and only eat a tiny olive sized bit of matzah? Come on, no one is doing that. The whole discussion is about how much fulfills the requirement of the mitzvah. Since you make a bracha on "achilat matzah" you want to fulfill that mitzvah immediately after the bracha, as is the case with other types of mitzvahs which follow a special bracha. So the discussion about kezayith is not about how much we eat at the seder meal but about how much we shove into our gullets after the bracha, at the very first instance of eating matzah at the seder.
I really dont understand the need to argue about this volume.
. All the poskim discuss this matter so they saw a reason. The main reason I can see is that this volume determines whether a person has or has not fulfilled a very important deoraissa(Torah) commandment. So that's a very important discussion if we're going to take Jewish law seriously. Which we should.
Once again remember how the minhag/custom fits into Jewish ritual. Just last Shabbat my Rabbi was discussing how different shuls have different minhagim, and that when attending a shul with different minhagim that we should not complain that the shuls minhag is wrong {if it is not a mistake and truly a custom of the shul}.
Commandment to eat matzah on the first night of pesach is directly from the Torah. Not a matter of custom.
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KWRBT,
You keep bringing up things from years ago...
Nobody is forcing you to eat more matzah than is halachically required. I don't know why the whole premise is so important to you. I have never heard anyone complaining that they are being forced to eat more matzah than is required.
It is clear that the size is called a Kezayit. As I brought when this topic was originally discussed, there is a dispute as to the size of this kezayit. If you hold that the size of a kezayit is a small olive, very well. Don't eat more than that kezayit, and nobody will think you are doing anything wrong.
But there are those who hold that a kezayit is somewhat larger than this small olive. So what are you going to do?
Either there is a conspiracy of the rabbis who want us to eat more matzah than is commanded by the Torah, or there is a valid disagreement concerning the size of the kezayit.
I usually eat at least one entire shmurah matzah during seder. I buy a box of shmurah matzah and it usually lasts the entire week. I used to buy too much matzah but now I know how much I need and usually don't have any left at the end of Pesach.
Anyway, I don't want to argue about it. I think eating matzah on Pesach is easy and don't really think much of the difference in the volume of a kezayit (small olive or small egg).
http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/10951/jewish/Kezayit.htm
Kezayit: (lit. "like an olive"); a halachic measure formally described as the size of an olive, and approximately one ounce or 25.6 grams
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Is there an absolute value which we should eat? I don't really know. Is it important? In the case of the minimal amount of matzah to eat in order to satisfy the mitzvah of eating matzah it may be. But I have no problem eating the minimal amount, and I often eat matzah at least once every day of the Chag...
I suppose the question should be posed to whoever is leading the seder you are attending. And I am not arguing, I believe that these questions are good for us to understand the halacha and inspire others to ask other questions...
How much one eats at the seder is less important than this question of how much satisfies the mitzvah but in reality, that question isn't as relevant as people make it out to be anyway once we realize how simple chazal's instructions were. All they meant was that to fulfill the mitzvah requirement of the Torah, you have to eat a "substantive" amount of matzah to qualify it. Not a tiny crumb. But not a massive portion either. Basically the size of a normal size bite full, which they characterized as about the size of an olive. That is basically how much a normal person eating a normal meal takes into his mouth in one basic sized bite full.
We are being kovea a seuda on matzah, so logic would dictate it's going to feature prominently in that meal and people will eat a good deal of it over the course of the night and the chag itself.
So where does this question even factor in, you might ask? Why bother with the reactionary stuff against people scarfing down monstrous portions to "fulfill the mitzvah" (so they claim)? Several reasons. One is, let's know what we are talking about and not necessarily jump after every cultural norm or "keep up with the jones's" type of frumkeit. (Although some cultural norms may be worthwhile - it depends which one!). 2. A sick person who is not feeling well and cannot stomach a whole meal, maybe he still wants to satisfy the mitzvah. So he takes a small olive sized portion and boom, he's done. Not 2 and a halve matzahs in which case most sick people who would otherwise satisfy the mitzvah if they had the strength to take in a small bite, would definitely not. 3. Even if not sick, it factors into all of our lives because it has to do with how much we eat in that first initial "mitzvah-fulfilling" portion in a short time span. If the kezayith really magnified to 30 times what it used to be, then we have to sit there and stuff matzah into our mouths without water or other interruptions within x number of seconds after making the bracha. Otherwise, if olive means just an olive, as it most certainly did when chazal said olive, then that first bite just has to be a basic sized bite which allows plenty of seconds to chew and swallow, no stress at all, and then continue with the meal where we will all have plentiful amounts of matzah -spread out over time to our leisure, combined with water and other foods as we please.
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KWRBT,
You keep bringing up things from years ago...
Pesach happens every year.
I just checked into the Torah section and saw this post near the top, so I read some of the thread which I didn't see before, and replied. Simple as that.
If you do not benefit from what I write, I'm sorry to hear that. But maybe others will.
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And yes, I realize it is important to know whether you have fulfilled the mitzvah.
But as with almost everything in our religion, it is depending upon which sages you hold by. There are sources which justify the larger amount, and other sources which justify the smaller amount. I would say that in cases like this it is best to err on the side of eating more than the minimum amount according to the lenient opinion. But this is just my approach.
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Pesach happens every year.
I just checked into the Torah section and saw this post near the top, so I read some of the thread which I didn't see before, and replied. Simple as that.
Ok, no problem. As long as we don't get personal I am willing to debate what my thoughts are concerning this topic. When I originally read the topic I was surprised that there was so much discussion concerning the topic. I realize now that I was just not aware of it...
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And yes, I realize it is important to know whether you have fulfilled the mitzvah.
But as with almost everything in our religion, it is depending upon which sages you hold by. There are sources which justify the larger amount, and other sources which justify the smaller amount. I would say that in cases like this it is best to err on the side of eating more than the minimum amount according to the lenient opinion. But this is just my approach.
Again, don't conflate the issues.
First off, "sages" normally refers to the talmudic sages. It is the Talmud which concludes we need to eat a kezayith to satisfy the mitzvah. All agree to that. All poskim agree.
Second, the argument is not over how much you eat in an entire meal. People will naturally eat plenty of matzah in a meal in which it begins by making a blessing over the matzah (rather than bread). Obviously matzah will feature prominently in that meal.
The question is over how much you eat in the immediate aftermath of making the bracha. There is a timespan that follows and either a very natural easy to swallow amount that is the natural result of taking a bite after the bracha. OR, stuffing down 2 and a half matzahs within x # of seconds after the bracha. It has NOTHING, absolutely nothing, to do with how much one will subsequently eat throughout the rest of the meal, which in any natural circumstance is going to be a significant amount. There is no reason to err on the side of caution or not err on the side of caution, we are all having plenty of matzah throughout our seder meal. The question is about immediately after the bracha. You need to eat a kezayith right after the bracha. A kezayith is about the size of an olive - a normal sized bite. Only a sick person or someone maybe with special dietary restrictions would possibly eat ONLY a kezayith of matzah for their whole meal.
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KWRBT,
As always I attempt to be intellectually honest, and even if I am arguing one way, will provide evidence which supports those who argue with me, because to me the issue is not personal (not that I imply it is to you of course) but more important to learn the opinion of the ones who learn and teach halacha and trust their opinions.
We were discussing halacha according to Rabbi Eli Mansour of dailyhalacha.com . Rabbi Mansour is a Sephardic rabbi who teaches according to the tradition of Rabbi Yosef Caro. Here is what he says on the kezayit:
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1566
It should be noted that this basic principle – that the amount of Ke'zayit is determined by volume, and not by weight – affects other areas of Halacha, as well. On the first night of Pesah, for example, Halacha requires eating a Ke'zayit of Masa. Were we to measure a Ke'zayit of Masa by weight, one would be required to eat one or possibly two Masot. Since, however, we measure a Ke'zayit by volume, it is generally assumed that one fulfills his obligation by eating approximately one half of a machine-made Masa.
It seems according to him that the debate is over whether we use the weight, or the volume, of the kezayit to determine how much Matzah to eat...
So maybe this is what we need to clarify in explaining the halacha...
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Yes, I understand the halacha is that we must eat a kezayit several times during the seder.
The basic difference as Rabbi Mansour demonstrated is that according to the weight or the volume, this kezayit can be either 1-2 machine-made matzahs or 1/2 a machine made matzah...
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Muman it is by volume. In this case it is about equal. And it's not a small olive. It is an average olive that we see and discovered. It is about 5 cc at most. That is the minimum requirement. The chabad source you brought is laughable and sad. How does it correctly define Kzait being like an olive and the state 25 grams? Show me any olive like this. Are you not aware what an olive looks like? And about forcing people it is done by some who verbally tell the audience that they have not supposedly kept pessah all of these years because they did not stuff themselves with these enormous amounts. Soo their is this pressure. Then when one has guests they wonder why one is not doing what the rabbi said and start looking at you as if your reform or something. I'm personally not intimidated but nevertheless these things are not pleasant. Then their is also the issue of health where people our people are told to basically damage their bodies for nothing, + it creates an unpleasant holiday for absolutely nothing and most of all shows the incompetence of those who still insist upon this and total lack of clarity and inability to be real hachamim that we soo desperately need more of!
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Muman it is by volume. In this case it is about equal. And it's not a small olive. It is an average olive that we see and discovered. It is about 5 cc at most. That is the minimum requirement. The chabad source you brought is laughable and sad. How does it correctly define Kzait being like an olive and the state 25 grams? Show me any olive like this. Are you not aware what an olive looks like? And about forcing people it is done by some who verbally tell the audience that they have not supposedly kept pessah all of these years because they did not stuff themselves with these enormous amounts. Soo their is this pressure. Then when one has guests they wonder why one is not doing what the rabbi said and start looking at you as if your reform or something. I'm personally not intimidated but nevertheless these things are not pleasant. Then their is also the issue of health where people our people are told to basically damage their bodies for nothing, + it creates an unpleasant holiday for absolutely nothing and most of all shows the incompetence of those who still insist upon this and total lack of clarity and inability to be real hachamim that we soo desperately need more of!
Don't go knocking what some Rabbis say without knowing that they just don't pull the number out of thin air... As I stated in an earlier posting there certainly are sources which suggest it is more than that 5cc olive. The Shulchan Oruch, a standard of Halacha according to a great segment of the Jewish population, and so too Rambam assign a size larger than a 5 cc olive...
http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/shiurimONpesach.htm
Defining the Size of an Egg
The cup used for the four cups of wine at the seder must minimally contain a Reviit of liquid (see Shulchan Aruch O.C. 472:9). One must consume at least a Kezayit (the volume of an olive) of Matza in order to fulfill the Mitzva (see Rambam Hilchot Chametz U'Matza 6:1 and Shulchan Aruch O.C. 475:1). Similarly, one must eat a Kezayit of Maror to fulfill the Mitzva (see Shulchan Aruch O.C. 475:1 and the sources cited by Rav Shimon Eider Halachot of Pesach 21: note 15).
The Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 486) notes that a Kezayit is the size of half an egg. The Mishna Berura (486:1) notes that the Rambam says that a Kezayit is a third of an egg. The Mishna Berura rules that a sick individual may rely on the opinion of the Rambam. The Mishna Berura (271:68) notes that a Reviit is equivalent to the amount of liquid that one and a half eggs can displace. The Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 324:1) notes that the minimum amount of flour from which we must take Challa is the equivalent of 43.2 eggs. Accordingly, it is vital to determine the size of an egg.
Students often ask why the Halacha presents its measures in such imprecise terms such as the size of an egg or an olive. The Otzar Hageonim to Eruvin (chapter three) presents a highly insightful answer. The explanation presented is that Hashem knew that the Jewish people would eventually be scattered throughout the world. Thus, had Hashem presented Moshe Rabbeinu with precise measures they would have easily been forgotten with the passage of time. Since eggs and olives are always available throughout the world, Torah measurements can be determined in any environment and culture.
The Chumra of the Tzlach
The Gemara presents two standards for determining the measures mentioned in the Torah. The Gemara in Eruvin (83a) presents the size of an egg as a criterion to determine Torah measurements. In addition, the Gemara in Pesachim (109a) presents thumbs as a criterion to determine Torah measurements. Accordingly, both thumbs and eggs are viable Halachic standards to determine Torah measurements. Indeed, the Shulchan Aruch (Y.D. 324:1) presents both thumbs and eggs as viable options to determine the minimum amount of flour from which Challa must be taken.
Rav Yechezkel Landau, a major eighteenth century authority, in his commentary to the Gemara known as the Tzlach (Pesachim 109a), writes that he carefully measured thumbs and eggs and discovered that the two do not yield equal measurements. In fact, the measurement yielded by thumbs was twice the amount yielded by that of eggs. Rav Landau arrives at an extraordinary conclusion to resolve this problem. He assumes that the size of people's thumbs has not changed since the time of the Talmud. Instead, he concludes that the eggs in his time were half the size of what they were in the time of the Talmud. This ruling has great ramifications. According to Rav Landau, the Kezayit for Matza and other Mitzvot should be regarded as the equivalent of an entire egg and not a half of an egg as had traditionally been assumed. The Reviit should be regarded as the amount of liquid that can be displaced by three eggs instead of an egg and a half as had previously been assumed. The shiur for Challa would now be the volume of 86.4 eggs and not 43.2 eggs as had previously been practiced. In short, Rav Landau ruled that we must eat twice as much Matza as we had been accustomed to consuming in the past in order to fulfill the Mitzva of eating Matza.
Reaction to the Chumra of the Tzlach
Rav Landau's extraordinary ruling was met with both support and criticism. The Vilna Gaon (as reported in the Maaseh Rav 74) agreed with Rav Landau's ruling. The Aruch Hashulchan (Orach Chaim 168:13, O.C. 372:12 and Y.D. 324:5-10) notes that Rav Landau's ruling is adhered to by those who are especially scrupulous in matters of Halacha. However, he notes that most Jews retained the established practice and did not follow Rav Landau's ruling. The Aruch Hashulchan rules that one may choose to follow the strict opinion but he should not impose this Chumra on others. He notes various difficulties with Rav Landau's ruling. First, it constitutes a sharp departure from previously accepted practice. Second, the Gemara in Yoma (80a) teaches that one's mouth can hold an amount of food up to the size of an egg. The Aruch Hashulchan argues that according to Rav Landau one should be able to hold up to the size of two of "today's eggs" in his mouth. The Aruch Hashulchan points out that this is simply impossible. The Aruch Hashulchan also suggests that perhaps Rav Landau used small eggs in his determinations. The Aruch Hashulchan notes that egg size varies from area to area. He points out that this fact was already noted centuries earlier by the Tashbetz (3:33). The Aruch Hashulchan notes that the Mishna (Keilim 17:6) states that the egg that the rabbis speak of is neither a large or small egg but an average one. Accordingly, it is very possible that the eggs in the area of Rav Landau were small and thus skewed Rav Landau's findings.
The Chazon Ish (O.C. 39) defends Rav Landau's ruling. He notes that Shiurim are by definition imprecise and vary depending on the measurement of the great Halachic authorities of the time. Thus, Rav Landau's ruling does not call into question the Halachic practice of prior generations because they relied on the measurements of the rabbis of those generations. The Chazon Ish writes that there is no absolute right or wrong regarding the determination of Shiurim. The Chazon Ish argues that we must accept the Shiurim as determined by the great Halachic authorities, which include Rav Yechezkel Landau and the Vilna Gaon.
Conclusion
The Shaarei Teshuva (O.C. 486) and Mishnah Berura (486:1) adopt a compromising view regarding this issue. They rule that for biblical level obligations we should follow the strict ruling of Rav Landau. Regarding rabbinical level obligations, we may rely on the traditionally accepted smaller Shiurim. Thus, since the first Kezayit of Matza and the Afikoman might be required biblically (see Rashbam Pesachim 119b s.v. Ein Maftirin and Rosh Pesachim 10:34), the larger Shiur of Matza should be consumed for both of these occasions. In addition, by consuming the larger shiur one thereby accommodates the preferred practice of eating two Kezeitim for both the Matza that is eaten at the beginning of the meal and the Afikoman (see Shulchan Aruch 475:1, Mishna Berura 477:1, and Rav Yehoshua Neuwirth cited in Nishmat Avraham 4:68). However, since the Matza eaten for Korech is only a rabbinical requirement, the smaller Shiur suffices. According to Rav Moshe Feinstein, (Kol Dodi 14:11 and 18:3) the Shiur of Matza for Motzi Matza and the Afikoman should be 6.25 by 7 inches and the Matza for Korech need only be 4 by 7 inches (for more sources on this issue see Nishmat Avraham 4:67-70). Since the Mitzva of the four cups is only rabbinical, the smaller Shiur suffices.
According to Rav Moshe Feinstein (Kol Dodi 2:6), 3.3 fluid ounces suffices for the four cups of wine. When the Seder falls on Shabbat eve, the larger Shiur is required since Kiddush is a biblical requirement. According to Rav Moshe Feinstein, the larger Shiur is 4.4 fluid ounces. Since some authorities believe that Kiddush for Yom Tov is always a biblical requirement (see Minchat Chinuch 31), it is best to use the larger Shiur for the first cup at the Seder even if the Seder falls on a weeknight
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Mum neither of these sources - Rambam nor SA state such a thing. Bring the direct sources, also see and discover the eggs if they were referring to, and like I said earlier please show me 1 olive that is 25 or ( as commonly said) 30 grams. Retread the very first essay if you read it to begin with.
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There is nothing more to see here. I have brought the reason for the disagreements concerning the size of kezayit. The last quoted section I reposted here explains completely why some Rabbis say the kezayit is larger (Chumra of Tzlach). If you think there is something to argue about it is just because you want to argue about it. This topic apparently has been argued about for many many years and I doubt you, or the rabbi you quote, will make much of a difference in the Jewish world.
If you feel you know the right size of a kezayit I am very happy. Maybe just discussing it is the point of the debate.
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I hope to talk with my Rabbi this afternoon about his explanation for the various sources for the amount of a kezayit..
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KWRBT,
As always I attempt to be intellectually honest, and even if I am arguing one way, will provide evidence which supports those who argue with me, because to me the issue is not personal (not that I imply it is to you of course) but more important to learn the opinion of the ones who learn and teach halacha and trust their opinions.
We were discussing halacha according to Rabbi Eli Mansour of dailyhalacha.com . Rabbi Mansour is a Sephardic rabbi who teaches according to the tradition of Rabbi Yosef Caro. Here is what he says on the kezayit:
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1566
It seems according to him that the debate is over whether we use the weight, or the volume, of the kezayit to determine how much Matzah to eat...
So maybe this is what we need to clarify in explaining the halacha...
Even still, by volume or by weight, his calculations assume something much too big IMO.
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Rambam never says an olive is an egg. This is an exegetical derivation made by other sources reading the Rambam, not something he said directly relating egg to olive (or half-egg to olive, I forget what it was exactly). There is no reason to believe he means anything other than olive sized, as the Spanish rishonim, who witnessed real olives, explain it - and Unlike the French rishonim including Rashi who probably never saw what an olive looks like and so have no choice but to try to derive the actual size textually rather than by knowing through observation.
Not only that, but even going by those derivations of what Rambam said, the eggs of his time from the middle eastern chickens were far smaller than the huge eggs we see today from the European chickens (not to mention they are pumped with growth hormones, but in any case they lay bigger eggs than mideast species).
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http://youtu.be/RVNRqeAmeQA
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This link contains a chart demonstrating the various opinions on the amount of a kezayit...
http://www.dafyomi.co.il/general/info/oldunits-of-measurement.pdf
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In Hebrew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URc6_x7P3Pk
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Ba bump ba ba ba bummp
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Ba bump ba ba ba bummp
I don't believe you are still worried that people are eating too much Matzah...
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I don't believe you are still worried that people are eating too much Matzah...
I am actually.
1) Pessah is coming up and people should be aware of these Halachot and no point in me making a new thread with these issues presented. Show the old post but the same message needed for this coming year and actually all year since many people eat more then a real Kzait ("like an olive") and don't say Bitkat HaMazon as they should! Skipping a Rabinically ordained Misswah (Rabbinic because by the Torah its once someone is full, and Rabinic when its at least a Kzait- "like a (real) olive, which is about 3.5 cc also = in grams the same in this case).
2) Their can be people who believe that they need to stuff themselves with 30 or even 60 grams of massa in the different sections of the seder (which is up to 5 TIMES), ookay, that is them. BUT then their are many other people who will be at their Sedar's, even perhaps people who aren't really connected to Yahadut much, the first group can and sometimes (or many times) tells them that they need to eat more, much much more Massa and that if they don't then they aren't fulfilling the Misswah. And many times these other's either comply in order not to offend or refuse, and thinking of themselves as not doing the Misswah, AND more importantly thinking that this is all BS and that Judaism is divorced from reality.
So yes, this is still something to worry about as I unfortunately expect Rabbis and public speakers, unfortunately continuing to in the upcoming weeks (before Pessah) emphasizing this WRONG interpretation of Halacha. Until it is fixed at least to a large extent and at least people knowing the alternative view, it should and must be emphasized and learned over and over again (and not only that but just like all Halachot should be reviewed, this is a good time to learn and know this, those who wish to be stubborn, that's their choice, but for the rest of us, we can learn and know what to do.).