JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 20, 2012, 08:40:18 AM
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http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/component/content/article/34-featured/595-to-whom-qabala-may-concern--the-authenticity-of-the-zohar-update-02
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Thanks, watching now!
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Thanks, watching now!
You see it on video? I only got the audio.
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oh, no listening now... its sort of basic though...
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oh, no listening now... its sort of basic though...
That's why its called "“Introduction to the Kabbalah”,
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More advanced topics? Link me :)
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Just read Harry Potter.
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Just read Harry Potter.
The shiur isn't pro- "Kabbalah"
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The shiur isn't pro- "Kabbalah"
Ah ok, that's good then from my perspective.
What do you think of Rabbi David Bar-Hayim ?
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Ah ok, that's good then from my perspective.
What do you think of Rabbi David Bar-Hayim ?
He is my Rav.
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Kabbalah is a part of Jewish belief. I find all these attempts to make people believe it is satanic or idolatry, or other such things to be counterproductive.
I find all those Chassidic Jews which many here are trying to imply are following false beliefs often happen to be zionistic. I have heard three shuirs which explain why it is so important for Jews to live in Eretz Yisrael. Most of the great Kabbalists lived or visited the land, and are buried there.
This kind of stuff gives more ammunition to the non-Jews who persecuted the Jews of Ukraine who accused us of believing in Satan, or other slanders.
Only a small minority of Rabbis teach this kind of stuff and I don't listen to them, because I believe this Rabbi Bar Chayim is increasing slander and does not understand the damage he creates by dividing the people like this. It is fine if people don't believe or learn Kabbalah, it is not essential to believe... But what is the purpose of regularly bashing it? Does a Rabbi make it his 'shtick' to regularly bash other beliefs.
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There is no slander in what Rabi Bar Hayim wrote here:
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/component/content/article/34-featured/593-response-to-a-reader-regarding-qabala-and-the-zohar
He doesn't bash anyone but he sticks to the truth as he understands it. Unlike people who insist the Zohar was written by Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai when it is patently false.
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There is no slander in what Rabi Bar Hayim wrote here:
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/component/content/article/34-featured/593-response-to-a-reader-regarding-qabala-and-the-zohar
He doesn't bash anyone but he sticks to the truth as he understands it. Unlike people who insist the Zohar was written by Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai when it is patently false.
I understand all the questions about the source of the Zohar. And still I understand that the stories of the Zohar were known before they were published. I do not insist that everything in the Zohar was written by Rabbi Simon Bar Yochi.
But I do believe that there is a legitimate knowledge of Torah called Kabbalah, and it exists and is alluded to in the Talmud.
Regarding the slander which you do not recognize, read this excerpt from the article you linked:
My point is that extreme and unhinged behaviour is intrinsic to the Qabalistic perspective on life, and its real world impact is generally negative. Time and again we see that so-called mysticism conduces to irrational and unhealthy behaviours. For example: Would people who cannot properly provide for their children somehow find the money to fly to Uman one, two and three times a year were it not for the Qabalistic significance that they attach to such a trip? Another example: Inserts included in newspapers for the last two weeks have been encouraging people to phone up and order their very own, personal Holy Qabala Candle. "Just send us a donation, and light this candle on Lagh Ba'Omer and pray to Rashbi for whatever you like….the mystical powers are incredible. Your life will change." Avodha Zara, pure and simple. I have the inserts on my desk, and I'm keeping them in case someone doesn't believe me. In the name of Qabala, Judaism has, for many, been turned into a circus, an orgy of primitive superstitions. And did I mention Shabtai Ssvi? The followers of Shabtai Ssvi were known as "Zoharisten" because they claimed their heresies and abominations were based on the Zohar. Anyone wishing to discuss Qabala must first be able and willing to look the reality of Qabala in the eye. It's not pretty.
And how about this:
11. For a very select few, capable of conceiving of sophisticated constructs and analogies, Qabala can engender enlightenment. For most Jews, however, and for the historical collective of K'lal Yisrael, it has led to much that is pernicious. The most glaring example is the criminal passivity and delusional attitude towards Redemption that is evident wherever Qabala thrives. In this sense, Qabala and Zionism are diametrically opposed, and to the extent that Judaism in general was influenced by such thinking, particularly over the last 5 centuries, Zionism justifiably viewed itself as the antithesis of Judaism. And this is an immense tragedy, because the healthy aspects of Zionism – namely, that we are required to create G'ula by our own real-world actions as prescribed by the Tora – have always been part and parcel of authentic Tora Judaism.
I know many Chassidic Rabbis and listened to many, and none of these Rabbis believe that we don't have a part in the redemption process. All those I know are very Zionistic, and teach that Israel is the place all Jews should be, as the Zohar and Kabbalah also clearly teaches.
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I do not insist that everything in the Zohar was written by Rabbi Simon Bar Yochi.
But I do believe that there is a legitimate knowledge of Torah called Kabbalah, and it exists and is alluded to in the Talmud.
Regarding the slander which you do not recognize, read this excerpt from the article you linked:
Fine, soo? That's what we are saying.
Also I agree, it is said that Rav Saadia Gaon knew Kabbalah, yett he wrote strongly against things like reincarnation and some other things mentioned in books like the Zohar.
Their is no slander. He is a Torah scholar speaking the truth (objectivly- what he believes to be the truth), this was done always by great Torah scholars. If you disagree with his points, bring the proof. Otherwise don't accuse of slander and other such things trying to quiten the points made.
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Even the Chabad site clearly explains that what we have today published as the Zohar is a compilation of stories passed down through the Mesorah of Kabbalistic Rabbis of the ages.
http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380596/jewish/Rashbi-Works.htm
The Zohar is known as the primary text of the Kabbala. Its pre-eminent place in Jewish mysticism does not derive solely from its antiquity or its authorship. Other basic works of the Kabbala, like Sefer Yetzira and Sefer Habahir, are of earlier origin. The Zohar's importance must rather be attributed to its comprehensiveness, becoming the source for practically all the later authoritative Kabbalistic teachings of the school of R. Yitzchak Luria and others. Shalshelet HaKabbala (pg. 31b)holds that the Zohar currently in our possession is a mere fraction of the original work and maintains that entire work of the Zohar was so large that it would constitute an entire camel-load.
The Zohar itself attributes its disclosure of the Torah's mysteries to R. Shimon bar Yochai (known by the acronym "Rashbi"), the second-century Tanna who is the central master in the Zohar, and his disciples ("Chevraya" in Hebrew), including his son R. Elazar, his scribe R. Abba, R. Yehuda, R. Yossi ben Yaakov, R. Yitzchak, R. Chizkiyah, R. Chiya, R. Yossi, and R. Yaakov bar Idi. (Tikunei Zohar 1a; Zohar Chadash, Tikunim, 93d) Rabbi Shimon himself apparently wrote some of the Zohar, described as "the First Mishna," (Chabura Kadmaa mentioned in Zohar III, p. 219a ) while hiding in a cave from the Roman authorities who wanted to execute him. The Zohar affirms that one of Rashbi's foremost disciples, Rabbi Abba, recorded the bulk of his teachings (Zohar II, 123b. See also ibid. III, 287b and 296b ). In addition, early sources state that the composition of the Zohar extended over the period of Rashbi, his disciples and their disciples, who recorded many of the teachings passed on orally from Rabbi Shimon to his close associates and disciples.1
Thus its authorship spanned several generations.
The present form of the Zohar, in order of the parshiyot of the Torah, is of a much later date, most likely from the period of the Geonim, and there are some interpolations from these late editors.2
The Zohar was concealed for many centuries, as the study of the Kabbala was restricted to a select few qualified individuals. It became revealed only in the thirteenth century and was published by one of the leading kabbalists living in Spain, Rabbi Moshe de Leon. Some believed that the Ramban (Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman c. 1194-1270 CE), himself a renowned Kabbalist, had sent the Zohar from Israel by ship to his son in Catalonia, but the ship had been diverted and the texts ended up in the hands of Rabbi Moshe de Leon (Shem HaGedolim, Chida Sefarim, Zayin, 8). Others explained that these manuscripts had been hidden in a vault for a thousand years and had been discovered by an Arabian king who sent them to Toledo to be deciphered. Some maintained that Spanish conquistadors had discovered the manuscripts of the Zohar among many others in an academy in Heidelberg (Shem HaGedolim, ibid.). Other explanations have also been offered. The mystics ascribe special potency to the study of the Zohar: it effects a nullification of evil decrees, eases the travails of exile, hastens the redemption, and draws forth divine effluence and blessings (See R. Abraham Azulai, Foreword to Or Hachamah, p. 2d). There is great merit even in the mere recitation of the sacred texts of the Zohar, even though one does not understand them (R. Chaim David Azulai, Moreh Be'etzba II:43).
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I understand all the questions about the source of the Zohar. And still I understand that the stories of the Zohar were known before they were published. I do not insist that everything in the Zohar was written by Rabbi Simon Bar Yochi.
But I do believe that there is a legitimate knowledge of Torah called Kabbalah, and it exists and is alluded to in the Talmud.
Regarding the slander which you do not recognize, read this excerpt from the article you linked:
Some kabbalists give think the Zohar trumps Shulchan Aruch and Yad HaChazaka. Clearly that is a serious problem. I think that most rabbis even if they believe Kabbalah has legitimacy don't give it such a high rank in terms of halacha ruling.
What rabbi Bar Hayim wrote is unfortunately very true. This is really what's going on in Israel in some circles. And there are lots of charlatans who claim to be mekubalim and really they are after money like the worst snake oil peddler.
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Fine, soo? That's what we are saying.
Also I agree, it is said that Rav Saadia Gaon knew Kabbalah, yett he wrote strongly against things like reincarnation and some other things mentioned in books like the Zohar.
Their is no slander. He is a Torah scholar speaking the truth (objectivly- what he believes to be the truth), this was done always by great Torah scholars. If you disagree with his points, bring the proof. Otherwise don't accuse of slander and other such things trying to quiten the points made.
Tag,
When he makes sweeping claims about various beliefs of Judaism, such as a hypothetical family which doesn't support his kids yet goes to Uman as a way to slander the entire group... And saying that those who have faith that includes Kabbalistic ideas are not Zionists, when my eyes and ears see otherwise... That, in my opinion, is slander.
When I watch a good Rabbi like Rabbi Richman or Rabbi Lazer Brody, who do not attempt to divide or degrade the beliefs of other Jews, who attempt to see the good in each Jew instead of feeling his belief is superior than the other, then I see a true Jewish leader.
If you feel a need to eliminate Kabbalah from Jewish belief, then so be it... But you yourself have posted many things here by Rabbis who do quote from the Zohar, and use Kabbalistic ideas to convey their ideas.
I also ask if you think that those Religious Zionists in Judea and Samaria believe in the Zohar and Kabbalah.... I would believe that they do... One my my Chabad friend has a daughter who lives in a Settlement there and her husband is a Rabbi there.. I don't think belief in Kabbalah causes one to be anti zionist...
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Some kabbalists give think the Zohar trumps Shulchan Aruch and Yad HaChazaka. Clearly that is a serious problem. I think that most rabbis even if they believe Kabbalah has legitimacy don't give it such a high rank in terms of halacha ruling.
What rabbi Bar Hayim wrote is unfortunately very true. This is really what's going on in Israel in some circles. And there are lots of charlatans who claim to be mekubalim and really they are after money like the worst snake oil peddler.
If this is the case then I apologize, because all I have learned is that the Shulchan Aruch is the 'Code of Law' for all Jews. Even Breslov claims it keeps the Shulchan Aruch...
Here from a Breslev site:
http://www.breslovtorah.com/breslov/
Breslov Chassiduth is an application of the hidden light of the Torah to serving Hashem through sincerity, joy, and simplicity. Rebbe Nachman emphasized tefilah (prayer) and daily Torah study – especially shulchan aruch and halacha. Breslov teachings explain how emunah (faith) serves as a means to do teshuvah (repentance) and that every Jew can return to Hashem at any moment, no matter where he or she is situated on a geographical, educational, or spiritual level.
In addition to the regular daily services in the synagogue, Rebbe Nachman advised his Chassidim to speak to Hashem in their own words as well. This is done in complete privacy during hitbodeduth (seclusion) every day. The reestablishment of this ancient form of Jewish tefilah helps one develop better concentration during prayer from the siddur. Hitbodeduth is essential to another basic emphasis in Rebbe Nachman’s teachings: tikun hamidoth – the path of personal and inter-personal development.
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Muman I will respond to what you highlighted from the article
"For example: Would people who cannot properly provide for their children somehow find the money to fly to Uman one, two and three times a year were it not for the Qabalistic significance that they attach to such a trip?"
You don't see this as a problem? Going to Uman, especially while being close to broke is very problematic not to mention leaving Israel to go to the exile (Ukraine). Other Rabbis including Rav Mordechi Eliyahu, Rav Ovadia yosef and others (including Askeansi Rabbis) not just Rav Bar Hayim talk against these things. leaving Israel to travel to the Ukrain. Are their no graves of Holy Tzaddikim in Israel? On top of that with this example you brough their are fathers who cannot provide for their children yett they travel to Uman. you don't see that as a problem? And even if they have $, why leave Israel to go there? Why not spend Rosh Hashana with the family the way it is suppoed to be?
Judaism has, for many, been turned into a circus, an orgy of primitive superstitions.
Read what was said right before that and what exactly he is referring to. I won't requote it for space. Just reread it. You don't see a problem with all these things like "Kabbalah candles", red strings, Kabbalah water (Yes it exists) and other such shtuyot.
The most glaring example is the criminal passivity and delusional attitude towards Redemption that is evident wherever Qabala thrives. In this sense, Qabala and Zionism are diametrically opposed, and to the extent that Judaism in general was influenced by such thinking, particularly over the last 5 centuries,
the zohar (written in the Galut) is VERY passive. People generally bring statements from the Zohar that are completly passive and not encouraging an active role to the redemption. For example Temple falling from the heavens, or even when against the Arabs thngs like G-D shaking the Ishmaelim like the crumbs from a table. These are midrashic statements and people (I have seen this over and over again) bring these things as statments encouraging passivity. G-D will do this or that, not us.
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it will from the sky, after I blow the evil one up.
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If this is the case then I apologize, because all I have learned is that the Shulchan Aruch is the 'Code of Law' for all Jews. Even Breslov claims it keeps the Shulchan Aruch...
Here from a Breslev site:
http://www.breslovtorah.com/breslov/
Some of the sfaradim go according to the system of Ben Ish Hai and in some cases this system rules according to Kabbalah and against Shulchan Aruch And Harambam.
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When he makes sweeping claims about various beliefs of Judaism, such as a hypothetical family which doesn't support his kids yet goes to Uman as a way to slander the entire group... And saying that those who have faith that includes Kabbalistic ideas are not Zionists, when my eyes and ears see otherwise... That, in my opinion, is slander.
He never said everyone, he gave examples of which such beliefs produce.
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Some of the sfaradim go according to the system of Ben Ish Hai and in some cases this system rules according to Kabbalah and against Shulchan Aruch And Harambam.
The Shulhan Aruch itself has some problems when it includes Kabbalistic things. For example Tefillin during Hol Hamoed when before the advent of the zohar it was ruled to wear it during Hol Hamoed, yett the Kabbalists changed the standing Halacha because of something mentioned in the zohar.
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/35-hagim/320-wearing-tphilllin-during-hol-hamoedh-the-intermediate-days-of-the-festival
Both Talmudhim indicate that one is to wear T'philllin during Hol HaMo'edh.
The Rif, Rambam, Rosh and Tur all agree that the misswah applies even during Succoth and Pesah. The Shulhan Arukh says otherwise, contrary to his own rule of thumb. He was influenced by the Zohar. A classic and telling example of the influence of Qabbala on Halakhic practice.
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Muman I will respond to what you highlighted from the article
"For example: Would people who cannot properly provide for their children somehow find the money to fly to Uman one, two and three times a year were it not for the Qabalistic significance that they attach to such a trip?"
You don't see this as a problem? Going to Uman, especially while being close to broke is very problematic not to mention leaving Israel to go to the exile (Ukraine). Other Rabbis including Rav Mordechi Eliyahu, Rav Ovadia yosef and others (including Askeansi Rabbis) not just Rav Bar Hayim talk against these things. leaving Israel to travel to the Ukrain. Are their no graves of Holy Tzaddikim in Israel? On top of that with this example you brough their are fathers who cannot provide for their children yett they travel to Uman. you don't see that as a problem? And even if they have $, why leave Israel to go there? Why not spend Rosh Hashana with the family the way it is suppoed to be?
Judaism has, for many, been turned into a circus, an orgy of primitive superstitions.
Read what was said right before that and what exactly he is referring to. I won't requote it for space. Just reread it. You don't see a problem with all these things like "Kabbalah candles", red strings, Kabbalah water (Yes it exists) and other such shtuyot.
The most glaring example is the criminal passivity and delusional attitude towards Redemption that is evident wherever Qabala thrives. In this sense, Qabala and Zionism are diametrically opposed, and to the extent that Judaism in general was influenced by such thinking, particularly over the last 5 centuries,
the zohar (written in the Galut) is VERY passive. People generally bring statements from the Zohar that are completly passive and not encouraging an active role to the redemption. For example Temple falling from the heavens, or even when against the Arabs thngs like G-D shaking the Ishmaelim like the crumbs from a table. These are midrashic statements and people (I have seen this over and over again) bring these things as statments encouraging passivity. G-D will do this or that, not us.
I understand that there are Rabbis who are against going to Uman, though most do not have a problem with it. But to offer just a supposed example when the question can be asked does this regularly happen? I know people who go to Uman and yet they take care of their children, and most of Breslov Chassidim do take very good care of their kids. Can we find examples of other families doing things which could be seen as at the expense of the children? Is this phenomenon really due to the Zohar or belief in Kabbalah or could it be because of other reasons?
I do not know any who believe in Kabbalah magic items... I have clearly rebuked those who buy into this 'new age' Kabbalah which doesn't stress the basics of Jewish belief of Tanakh and Talmud. There is no shortcut to learning Kabbalah and I say those who ascribe power to material objects clearly do not understand the Torah and Talmud.
And again... Regarding of all Jews who are Zionistic that I know, almost all believe in some aspects of Kabbalah.
And I will again say that it is not important to me to push Kabbalah. I am simply defending the beliefs of what I consider to be good Jews, Jews who will stand up for Israel.
And regarding the comment about the Temple coming from heaven. That idea DOES NOT come from the Zohar but the Talmud.
I found this via this page @ http://www.shortvort.com/tetzaveh-parasha/11097-who-will-build-the-3rd-beis-hamikdash
This article explains how to reconcile the two beliefs, whether we have to build it, or whether it will be built by Hashem and fall from Shamayim...
The gemarra reveals that Nissan is one of the two months most appropriate for Moshiach’s arrival,[2] and elsewhere pinpoints the year after the Shemittah year to be the one most likely to witness Moshiach’s arrival[3] (that’s this year). Therefore, in order to at least know a bit about how the third beis hamidkash is going to arrive, and to be a bit prepared, we are writing this series. So here goes; as always, I recommend looking up each source I quote - especially in this mini-series. The order of play is as follows: first we will cite the opinion of Rashi (et al), then explain the opinion of the Rambam (answering a contradiction in the Rambam), and finally we explain what the root of this dispute is between Rashi and the Rambam via a golden explanation of the Maharam Shik. There seems to be a dispute as to how the third beis hamikdash will arrive. The opinion of Rashi,[4] Tosafos,[5] and the Ritva[6] all say that the third beis hamikdash will come down fully-built from Heaven; it is already built - it must just be ‘plonked down’ by HaShem onto Har Habayis (I look forward to the BBC reporting that one). The Rambam disagrees. He writes[7] that Moshiach will build the third beis hamikdash. In the Rambam’s (translated) words: ‘the melech hamoshiach will bring back the kingship of David to its former glory, and he will build the midkash and will gather in the exiles of Bnei Yisrael.’ However, though the Rambam certainly does seem to argue with Rashi’s (etc.) view, the opinion of the Rambam needs clarifying. For in two other places, the Rambam writes[8] that the obligation to build the mikdash is on the people of Bnei Yisrael.[9] So who is to build it according to the Rambam; the Moshiach or the people? The truth is that this same contradiction can be found in sources that pre-date the Rambam. Whilst the Midrash Rabbah[10] says that Moshiach will build the third beis hamikdash, the Talmud Yerushalmi[11] says that the people will build the midkash. How can we resolve the contradiction? The answer is a simple one. The Rambam (and the above sources) hold that Moshiach will command/oversee the building of the beis hamikdash, but the people will actually be the ones who build it.
So far so good. We have two opinions as to how the third mikdash will arrive: Rashi, Tosafos, and the Ritva hold that it will fall from Heaven, whilst the Rambam holds that Moshiach will oversee the people building it. But as we know, the Rishonim did not just make things up all the time; they had sources for what they said - especially in a topic like this. We have quoted the sources for the Rambam’s opinion (the Midrash Rabbah and the Talmud Yerushalmi), but where did Rashi get his opinion from? First, Tosafos in Shevuos quotes a Midrash Tanchuma[12] to support his view. And elsewhere in the Talmud Yerushalmi[13] it says that the (third) beis hamikdash will be built before Moshaich arrives; this only makes sense according to Rashi’s opinion, for according to the Rambam, Moshiach is supposed to be the one who oversees the building of the third mikdash. Therefore, we can now ask what does the Rambam do with the sources which seem to be proofs for Rashi’s view, and how will Rashi deal with the sources which supported the Rambam?
In order to get a better understanding of Rashi’s view, it is imperative that we cite some great questions from the Aruch La’ner,[14] which really gives birth to a deeper understanding of Rashi’s (and Tosafos and Ritva) opinion. He asks two strong questions on Rashi. Recall that according to Rashi, the third beis hamikdash is already built in Heaven; it must just be lowered down to Har Habayis. If so, the text of our Tefillah found in Avos[15] and Tamid[16] should not be ‘may the beis hamikdash be rebuilt (‘sheyibaneh beis hamikdash’) - for it is already built; rather it should be ‘may the beis hamikdash be revealed’(‘sheyigaleh beis hamidkash’). Next, the Aruch La’ner points out a contradictory Rashi. Later on in gemarra Sukka, the gemarra tells us[17] that there are ‘four carpenters/skilled workmen;’ Moshiach ben David, Moshaich ben Yosef, Eliyahu, and Shem ben Noach. And Rashi comments[18] that Moshiach will need to be a skilled workman for the building of the beis hamikdash. It seems that Rashi is now siding with the Rambam that Moshiach will have a hand in (overseeing) the building of the beis hamikdash. And so how do we resolve this contradiction in Rashi’s view?
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The Shulhan Aruch itself has some problems when it includes Kabbalistic things. For example Tefillin during Hol Hamoed when before the advent of the zohar it was ruled to wear it during Hol Hamoed, yett the Kabbalists changed the standing Halacha because of something mentioned in the zohar.
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/35-hagim/320-wearing-tphilllin-during-hol-hamoedh-the-intermediate-days-of-the-festival
Both Talmudhim indicate that one is to wear T'philllin during Hol HaMo'edh.
The Rif, Rambam, Rosh and Tur all agree that the misswah applies even during Succoth and Pesah. The Shulhan Arukh says otherwise, contrary to his own rule of thumb. He was influenced by the Zohar. A classic and telling example of the influence of Qabbala on Halakhic practice.
I didn't know that. Now some of the Kabbalistic influence is quite benign. I think that for example the concept of Kabbalat Shabat is largely based on Kabbalah and many of the zmirot were written by mekubalim including HaAri.
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And regarding the comment about the Temple coming from heaven. That idea DOES NOT come from the Zohar but the Talmud.
It is mentioned in the Zohar and those who go by it (including the Ben Ish Chai). I had it quoted to me by those who tell me not to worry about the Temple because it will fall from the sky. And this happened more than once.
It is mentioned by Rashi in the Talmudh, but it is outright rejected by the Talmudh itself.
The Third Bet Hamikdash - From Heaven or From Earth?
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/43-philosophy/520-the-third-bet-hamikdash-from-heaven-or-from-earth
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By the way Muman, I am just listening to someone now (no names), and he just said the word "reincarnation" like 20 times in a minute. And that being born is a "punishment". These are exactly the attitudes that will and do leave the Jewish nation in complete distress and cause problems instead of hoping and building a proper good future for the nation.
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My family was butchered or fled from Spain because they said their kaballah was witchcraft. I apply to rule of: if someone hates Jews for it, its not true. As for people misrepresenting the kaballah, if they say its a new age thing, don't listen to them [or pay them]. I still learn more thinking about what I learned then I do in a semester of capitalist hating college.
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My family was butchered or fled from Spain because they said their kaballah was witchcraft. I apply to rule of: if someone hates Jews for it, its not true. As for people misrepresenting the kaballah, if they say its a new age thing, don't listen to them [or pay them]. I still learn more thinking about what I learned then I do in a semester of capitalist hating college.
They were persecuted and expelled just because they were Jews and refused to convert to Catholicism.
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They were persecuted and expelled just because they were Jews and refused to convert to Catholicism.
I'm pretty sure the Jewish part was enough, but they still need to pretend like they're good butchers. Saying kaballah is witchcraft gives serial killers a pretty little dress to wear.
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Jews have also been persecuted for being communists. This does not mean that communism is true Judaism or that there is validity to communism.
The analogy isn't the same, commieism is bad and not Jewish, while Kaballah is good and Jewish. Don't promote the idea that Zohar is bad (I disagree with the analogy that the fact it says the temple will fall from the sky, or etc. encourages passivity. To the contrary, it encourages me not only to do it, but work really hard to make it fit in. And nothing about Jews returning home wasn't magical...), or secularnazist (a.k.a. murderreligiousjews) will come back and promote that as a way of sneaking in. Even if they'll try to massacre us again regardless, don't make it easy for them to look holy when they're at it.
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The analogy isn't the same, commieism is bad and not Jewish, while Kaballah is good and Jewish. Don't promote the idea that Zohar is bad (I disagree with the analogy that the fact it says the temple will fall from the sky, or etc. encourages passivity. To the contrary, it encourages me not only to do it, but work really hard to make it fit in. And nothing about Jews returning home wasn't magical...), or secularnazist (a.k.a. murderreligiousjews) will come back and promote that as a way of sneaking in. Even if they'll try to massacre us again regardless, don't make it easy for them to look holy when they're at it.
Indeed most people I talk to {mostly Chassidic} do not believe that the Temple will fall from heaven. The way to hasten the messianic redemption is through bringing more Jews back to pure emunah and bitachon in Hashem, performing mitzvot, and doing all we can to ensure unity among all Jews.
There is no problem in questioning the sources... But to continuously do so will cause more divisions, and eventually {as you suggest} will invite attacks from outside.
http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/1128794/jewish/Particularly-Propitious-Mitzvot.htm
By Naftali Silberberg
Maimonides (Laws of Teshuvah 3:4) exhorts every individual to view himself, and the entire world as well, as being equally "weighted" with sins and mitzvot. The scale is standing still, and any one deed will tip the scale—both the individual's personal scale, as well as the global scale. Any one mitzvah can potentially bring salvation and redemption to the individual and the entire world.
As such, when discussing how to hasten the Redemption, the most basic answer is quite simple: jump at every mitzvah opportunity that presents itself. You never know which mitzvah – and it can be any mitzvah – will be the proverbial "straw that breaks the camels back" and brings the Messianic Era.
Nevertheless, there are certain mitzvot that according to our sages have a greater connection to the Redemption, and their observance hastens the coming of Moshiach considerably more than others. Let's discuss several such mitzvot (in no particular order).
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No one is saying that Kabbalha is "witchcraft" and other such suggestions. We are talking about some ideas, some ideas that we (I at least) am agains't. Do people read the posts in their entirety?
And Muman- that is good to hear, again I am talking about the ideas where such things are problematic. We are addressing some problems
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Do you see what is going on?
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Do you see what is going on?
I believe Tag is trying to highlight an issue which he considers problematic. Just stating that there are issues with Kabbalah is not the same as calling it witchcraft. I do agree that Kabbalah has become a confusing point and is not something we should spend a great deal of time discussing.
I just get defensive because a good deal of Chassidut has Kabbalistic ideas and I am afraid that good Jews may be painted with a bad brush...
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For the record, their were great Talmedi Hachamim, Yirah Shemayim who accepted the Zohar and similar such works. (Also those who rejected as well).
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NOT Tag!
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I think Ephraim hates me. Anyways, nobody here suggested the kaballah is witchcraft, and neither did I make such an accusation, only that in Spain that's what they said, and indeed to an ignorant person a temple falling from the sky is all too mystical.
I do not believe the writer was worried we wouldn't get out of the way, nor intended his words to start the great Jewish sky-watching age. Whatever his purpose, I hear temple falls from the sky, and I stock up on c4 for the current abomination, or I hear Jerusalem's women get raped and G-d comes to fight, and I build holy nukes for him to play with.
I am not in the habit of denying Jewish holy texts, but I don't view things passively, as I never see the intention of a verse as being: do nothing. You were given a brain that works, and any and everything that happens was supposed to, so learning more from kaballah and trying to apply the prophesy or lessons in your life is the purpose, not saying: my life is complete, I have no need to help destiny and should sit.
Saying it's wrong is where the rabbi went off, I believe that interpretations that encourage an active role should be taught where disagreement arises, but of course they should be stated as what they are, because believing a man's interpretation of something holy as holy leads to heresy.
And Ephraim, I peed in your soup.
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I think Ephraim hates me. Anyways, nobody here suggested the kaballah is witchcraft, and neither did I make such an accusation, only that in Spain that's what they said, and indeed to an ignorant person a temple falling from the sky is all too mystical.
I do not believe the writer was worried we wouldn't get out of the way, nor intended his words to start the great Jewish sky-watching age. Whatever his purpose, I hear temple falls from the sky, and I stock up on c4 for the current abomination, or I hear Jerusalem's women get raped and G-d comes to fight, and I build holy nukes for him to play with.
I am not in the habit of denying Jewish holy texts, but I don't view things passively, as I never see the intention of a verse as being: do nothing. You were given a brain that works, and any and everything that happens was supposed to, so learning more from kaballah and trying to apply the prophesy or lessons in your life is the purpose, not saying: my life is complete, I have no need to help destiny and should sit.
Saying it's wrong is where the rabbi went off, I believe that interpretations that encourage an active role should be taught where disagreement arises, but of course they should be stated as what they are, because believing a man's interpretation of something holy as holy leads to heresy.
And Ephraim, I peed in your soup.
I fail to see where Ephraim said anything intended to offend you... Could you please clear up what it is which makes you feel this way?
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I fail to see where Ephraim said anything intended to offend you... Could you please clear up what it is which makes you feel this way?
He keeps accusing me of things, since I came. He implied I was in league with secularnazist, and here he implies that I seek to do something bad or another. I'm not actually offended, I don't speak when I'm mad. I just like it when people express emotion, because its so easy to know exactly how they'll react and play with them (well fun for me), and I was once told that if you give an idiot enough rope, they hang themselves. I tried that a couple times, but no, Ephraim is not dumb, but emotional yes, so I drag that lease around until he realizes that he's holding his own collar on. Tough love, I don't take sides with personal development, and its why all my friends love me.
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He keeps accusing me of things, since I came. He implied I was in league with secularnazist, and here he implies that I seek to do something bad or another. I'm not actually offended, I don't speak when I'm mad. I just like it when people express emotion, because its so easy to know exactly how they'll react and play with them (well fun for me), and I was once told that if you give an idiot enough rope, they hang themselves. I tried that a couple times, but no, Ephraim is not dumb, but emotional yes, so I drag that lease around until he realizes that he's holding his own collar on. Tough love, I don't take sides with personal development, and its why all my friends love me.
Well, I don't think you have any bad intention here. And I believe Ephraim also is here for good reasons. We all need to be able to express our thoughts and beliefs in a way which others can understand. This is a challenge in a forum where we don't see or hear each other, and sometimes what we write doesn't exactly fit what we are trying to say.
I believe both LKZ and Ephraim are supportive of the ideas of Kabbalah whether or not the Zohar is 100% authentic as suggested {concerning complete authorship by R. Simon Bar Yochai}. I too feel this way, and I believe Tag is also lenient concerning belief in Kabbalistic ideas... We all are on the same page, although we all have differing understanding, and this is fine according to me.
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He just admitted to saying things to get under my skin. He also makes statements that can be interpreted two different ways. And sometimes even backwards.
That being said... If he is here to help the JTF and worship Hashem then I will back off!
My apologies LKZ.
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He just admitted to saying things to get under my skin. He also makes statements that can be interpreted two different ways. And sometimes even backwards.
That being said... If he is here to help the JTF and worship Hashem then I will back off!
My apologies LKZ.
If it gets under your skin, then there are words that can be said to initiate an expected response in you. Man up, nobody can afford a weak link. Your emotions make you easy to control, if you do not control them.
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I think Ephraim hates me. Anyways, nobody here suggested the kaballah is witchcraft, and neither did I make such an accusation, only that in Spain that's what they said, and indeed to an ignorant person a temple falling from the sky is all too mystical.
Call it names if you like, but to me that is indeed far too mystical and quite frankly not how the world works (not how G-d made it). I think it is foolish to believe the temple will fall from the sky nowadays and blind to think that "inspiring pure bitachon" will do more to bring about a Jewish temple than say "encouraging fulfillment of the mitzvah of aliyah/settling the land of israel" would. Logic dictates that a jewish presence in the land of israel lends itself to the possibility of building a temple, while pure bitachon in borough park does not (although, good for them if they achieve some high level of bitachon, but guess what, part of bitachon is trusting in G-d by settling His land).
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Call it names if you like, but to me that is indeed far too mystical and quite frankly not how the world works (not how G-d made it). I think it is foolish to believe the temple will fall from the sky nowadays and blind to think that "inspiring pure bitachon" will do more to bring about a Jewish temple than say "encouraging fulfillment of the mitzvah of aliyah/settling the land of israel" would. Logic dictates that a jewish presence in the land of israel lends itself to the possibility of building a temple, while pure bitachon in borough park does not (although, good for them if they achieve some high level of bitachon, but guess what, part of bitachon is trusting in G-d by settling His land).
... sometimes prophesy is metaphors. If it is G-d's word than if it doesn't make sense you have to try and understand it.
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... sometimes prophesy is metaphors. If it is G-d's word than if it doesn't make sense you have to try and understand it.
What ??? It is not G-D's word as you put it. No where in the Tannach is that written. The idea is also rejected in the Talmudh.
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What ??? It is not G-D's word as you put it. No where in the Tannach is that written. The idea is also rejected in the Talmudh.
The point is it doesn't necessarily have to mean falling from the sky, but a metaphor indicating something that the Talmudh would agree with.
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The point is it doesn't necessarily have to mean falling from the sky, but a metaphor indicating something that the Talmudh would agree with.
Could be a metaphor for the Kedusha, BUT the Kedusha never left the place that is why some say that one can't go to the place assuming one is impure, BUT to rebuttle them they are also wrong since the majority are impure with Tumat Met, we can go to the different places and give sacrifices even today.
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Very interesting Tag!
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... sometimes prophesy is metaphors. If it is G-d's word than if it doesn't make sense you have to try and understand it.
What prophesy are you talking about? You just make up your own or you're referring to a specific quote?
The whole point of prophesy (REAL prophesy recorded in tanach, the neviim, NOT zohar which is not prophesy and not even the biggest kabbalist tries to claim it's nevuah) being in metaphors is that it doesn't make sense to take it literally ( if indeed a given prophesy is a metaphor). And here you are referring to some yet unknown passage as a metaphor but saying I have to believe it literally. Understanding a metaphor literally is a contradiction in terms!
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What prophesy are you talking about? You just make up your own or you're referring to a specific quote?
The whole point of prophesy (REAL prophesy recorded in tanach, the neviim, NOT zohar which is not prophesy and not even the biggest kabbalist tries to claim it's nevuah) being in metaphors is that it doesn't make sense to take it literally ( if indeed a given prophesy is a metaphor). And here you are referring to some yet unknown passage as a metaphor but saying I have to believe it literally. Understanding a metaphor literally is a contradiction in terms!
Every Prophecy contains concepts which are not readily evident through the simple understanding. I think what LKZ is saying is that there are many levels of understanding the Torah, not just Pshat.
I don't know any Rabbi who says that the simple meaning of the prophecy is to be taken literally. For instance over Shavuot when we read the Haftorah in the morning we read Ezekial 1:1-28 which related how he envisioned the angels... My Rabbi said this is a metaphor and not to be taken literally.