JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: jsullivan on June 29, 2007, 02:01:02 AM
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Chaim Ben Pesach wrote the following letter to Allen on the Moderators' Section of this forum (a section of the forum which only moderators and administrators can see). The letter was written before Allen resigned and prepared a video in which he claims that he was banned from the forum (which is a lie).
Chaim and I believe that this incident will strengthen JTF by bringing in far more Jewish members, since most Jews are vehemently opposed to missionary attempts to convert Jews. And we will ultimately also have far more Christian members since most Christians are NOT obnoxious missionaries. Most Christians understand that if we cannot work together against the Islamic menace, and against the New World Order traitors who are destroying America and Israel, then we are endangering the survival of all decent people.
Here is the main part of Chaim's letter to Allen from several days ago (June 25, 2007):
"Allen-T wrote to Jimmy several days ago regarding his concern that because he argues in favor of Christianity with everyone he meets, including Jews, this will cause a problem. Allen-T never missionizes on the forum and never uses his position in JTF to missionize. But he does missionize in his activities outside of JTF.
"Allen-T made it clear that he believes that it is his duty to also preach the Gospel to Jews unless someone can prove to him that Christianity should not be preached to the Jews.
"Allen, I will now attempt to show you why Christianity should not be preached to the Jews.
"G-d made a covenant with the Jewish people. G-d commanded the Jews to obey and fulfill the 613 commandments of the Torah.
"However, there are Christians who believe in what is known as "replacement theology" - they believe that G-d's covenant with the Jews is no longer valid, and that since Yeshu (Jesus) came into the world, there is now a new covenant that has replaced the laws of the Torah.
"The sign of the Torah covenant between G-d and the Jews is circumcision. The Christians who believe that Jews must convert say that Jews no longer need circumcision of the flesh, that now with the "new covenant" there is a spiritual "circumcision of the heart" that replaces the physical circumcision. These Christians argue that the same is true in regard to the other commandments - Jews are no longer saved by performing commandments and fulfilling Torah law; now Jews are saved by "grace" which has replaced the Torah.
"This "replacement" view is NOT shared by all Christians. There are Christians who believe that the Torah covenant is eternally valid and therefore they do NOT try to convert Jews.
"In reality, the view of the "replacement" Christians who try to convert Jews is flatly contradicted by the Holy Scriptures:
'And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an EVERLASTING COVENANT, to be a G-d unto thee and to thy seed after thee.
'And I will give unto thee and to thy seed after thee the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION; and I will be their G-d.
'And G-d said unto Avraham, Thou shalt keep My covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee....
'This is My covenant, which ye shall keep between Me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.' (Genesis 17:7-10)
"The Torah covenant between G-d and the Jews is ETERNAL. Anyone who calls it invalid or claims it has been "replaced" is contradicting G-d's EXPLICIT WORDS IN THE HOLY BIBLE.
"And G-d specifically explains to us that part of this original eternal covenant is that He will give the Land of Israel to the Jews as an "EVERLASTING POSSESSION". Have we not seen G-d fulfill this promise when He miraculously returned the Jews to their ancient homeland after 2,000 years of exile? Israel belongs to the Jews as an "EVERLASTING POSSESSION", and that is explicitly mentioned by G-d as part of His "EVERLASTING COVENANT".
"If the Torah covenant between G-d and the Jews is eternal, then the Jews do not need to be "saved" by any "new covenant". Saying that the Jews need to be converted or "saved" is like saying that their current Torah beliefs are no longer valid.
"But can't the Jews replace the Torah commandments with a "new covenant"? Can't they replace the Torah law with spiritual "grace" instead of physical "works"? Can't they be circumcised "in the heart" instead of "in the flesh"? This is what "replacement" Christian missionaries preach, but again it flatly contradicts the clear language of the Holy Scriptures. Immediately after the passages above where G-d makes His "everlasting covenant" with the Jews, G-d explains how this eternal covenant requires the Jews to physically fulfill the Torah commandments through the flesh:
'And ye shall circumcise the FLESH of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant between Me and you.' (Genesis 17:11)
"To make sure that this is completely clear, G-d states in Genesis 17:13: '....and My covenant shall be in your FLESH for an EVERLASTING COVENANT.'
"What happens if the Jews do not PHYSICALLY fulfill the commandments of this eternal covenant?
'And the uncircumcised man child whose FLESH of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.' (Genesis 17:14).
"The Jew who fails to fulfill this eternal covenant is cursed by being "cut off" from his people. AND SO IS ANY GENTILE WHO ENCOURAGES THE JEW TO BREAK THE ETERNAL COVENANT. CONVINCING SOMEONE TO COMMIT A SIN IS JUST AS SERIOUS AS COMMITTING THE SIN ITSELF, IF NOT MORE SO.
"Allen-T, you know how much we all respect, admire and love you. But I think you should study these scriptures to save yourself from unintentionally going against G-d's will.
"Convincing Jews or attempting to convince Jews to abandon the eternal Torah covenant is a grave transgression.
"I know you have never done so on the forum or in JTF. But to do so IN ANY SITUATION violates G-d's covenant.
"Allen-T, you are a very righteous and principled person. I am confident that you will see that G-d's original Torah covenant with the Jews remains in force and is truly everlasting.
Chaim Ben Pesach"
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A perfect address - nothing more and nothing less.
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It seems that this letter might have fallen on deaf ears.
There's another moderator on this forum that definitely needs to read this letter as well.
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The problem is that some (not all, but SOME) christian zionists will still try to proselytise even though they don't believe in replacement theology. They have a funny idea about christianity making "completed jews" and being compatible with the original covenent. I encountered this thinking when I was a christian zionist and always argued strongly against it. These ideas must be countered because these type of christians take clever tack in telling jews they are not trying to convert them but to complete them. It's the same dangerous idea just cleverly diguised.
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The problem is that some (not all, but SOME) christian zionists will still try to proselytise even though they don't believe in replacement theology. They have a funny idea about christianity making "completed jews" and being compatible with the original covenent. I encountered this thinking when I was a christian zionist and always argued strongly against it. These ideas must be countered because these type of christians take clever tack in telling jews they are not trying to convert them but to complete them. It's the same dangerous idea just cleverly diguised.
That's the "Messianic Judaism" cult. They think they can be Christian Jews. They strongly support Israel. David Ben-Ariel is a Christian Gentile who belongs to them because he believes he's from The Lost Tribe of Menashe. "Jews For Jesus" on the other hand is a Baptist cult that wants to make Jews stop being Jews altogether.
It doesn't matter who owns the "brand", all of this stuff is killing true Torah judaism. When the evangelical movement first started supporting zionism, Rabbi Kahane accepted the help, but not unconditionally. If you listen to his audios you can hear him talk about his address to jimmy farter's chuch. He told them that Israel would survive with or without their help because G_d said it would. It was to their benefit to bless Israel and whilst gratefull for their support, Israel didn't owe them any favours. The Rabbi was toyally opposed to anybody (friend or foe) proselytising to jews.
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The problem is that some (not all, but SOME) christian zionists will still try to proselytise even though they don't believe in replacement theology. They have a funny idea about christianity making "completed jews" and being compatible with the original covenent. I encountered this thinking when I was a christian zionist and always argued strongly against it. These ideas must be countered because these type of christians take clever tack in telling jews they are not trying to convert them but to complete them. It's the same dangerous idea just cleverly diguised.
Torah Jews observe the same Torah commandments that were observed by Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, King David and the Hebrew prophets. Anyone who says that such Torah Jews are "incomplete" or "unfulfilled" is contradicting the Bible. The Bible says that this Torah way of life with 613 commandments is an "eternal covenant", and that Jews must eternally adhere to the Torah commandments or be "cut off" from their people.
The missionaries say that the way for a Jew to become "fulfilled" or "completed" is to abandon the Torah commandments and embrace Christianity. This missionary claim completely contradicts the Holy Scriptures.
Furthermore, to call a Torah Jew "incomplete" or "unfulfilled" is to invalidate Torah Judaism.
The missionaries also say that Torah Jews who adhere to this "eternal covenant" are going to burn in hell forever. Only Jews who become Christians are "saved".
The Reverend Pat Robertson of the Christian Coalition and the 700 Club said on The O'Reilly Factor on Fox News that he does NOT agree with this evil and anti-Semitic interpretation. The Reverend Robertson believes that Jews who are NOT Christians will also have a place in heaven.
The Vatican issued a doctrine paper from the Pope several years ago which said that non-Christians can go to heaven if they lead the proper life. So official Catholicism also rejects the view that if you are not a Christian, you are going to burn in hell forever.
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I agree with you Newman. Missionaries of any kind are no friend of The Jewish People.
To be fair, some of these conversion attempts are done out of a genuine love of jewish people. These christians genuinely don't want to see jews go to hell as they believe they will. But this is no excuse. A cattle dog constantly jumps up trying to lick your face and putting it's muddy paws on you out of genuine affection. Whilst we all love cattle dogs, we must train them not to do this.....sometimes, regretfully with a lite whack on the snout. No harm done.
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Excellent argument from Chaim. I would like to see Allen-T or any proselytizing Christian attempt to refute it.
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They are not able to refute it.
Perfect argument, Chaim.
Good Job.
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They are not able to refute it.
Perfect argument, Chaim.
Good Job.
Oh they try to. They use circular 'logic' but they try. I have a suspicion that people who knock themselves out trying to convert others are really trying to convince themselves because they have subconsious doubts.
Notice that you never get hetero-sexuals trying to convince everyone that they're right?....Of coarse not . Only gays do that because they know deep down that they're basic philosophy is flawed.
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David Ben-Ariel is a Christian Gentile who belongs to them because he believes he's from The Lost Tribe of Menashe.
I know this is topic-hijacking but David Ben-Ariel supports Ron Paul.
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Jimmy Sullivan is a liar, I was banned yesterday,temporarily. He doesn't even have the balls to post my refutation.
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I love how Allen-T is the big bad guy now. Thankfully he's been condemned by the usual suspects and we can all move on. ::)
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Here is my refutation, and then some;
Hello,
Here are my comments of Chaims statement; The fundamental problem I have with Chaims analogy of Genesis chapter 17 is that circumsion of the flesh is done as a badge of the eternal covenant, or as the evidence of it, NOT to achieve the covenant as Chaim seems to be saying. The cutting off of the soul referred to in Genesis 17;14 had a practical application prior to what is taught in the New Testament, which is better described as a fullfillment of the SAME eternal covenant. So focusing on an evidence of the covenant which does change with the coming of Jesus and saying it in itself is an inseperable part of the actual unchanging covenant is wrong, in my view. A Christian parallel would be that we are not saved by works, but when we are saved works are produced, which is an evidence of real salvation. When, as I Christian I speak to a Jew about Jesus, it's not about a "new covenant" but rather how Christ fulfills the promise of the same eternal covenant spoken about in Genesis chapter 17. One other issue I would like to address which was brought to my attention is the notion that Christianity's triun Godhead concept is in fact stolen from ancient pagan mystery religions. The father of paganism is Satan. Satan, according to the scriptures was called Lucifer prior to the fall[Isaiah 14-and yes I know there is also a historical application of these verses]. Lucifer was the highest angel in heaven, angel numero uno. In that position and proximity to G-d, it is certainly plausible that he had either direct knowledge, or knew enough to suspect a triun aspect of G-d. Move forward to the beginnings of the written Word. Job chapter 1 verse 7 talks about Satan "going to and fro in the earth,and from walking up and down in it". Since the minute G-d began to reveal himself to man, Satan has been taking notes, analyzing G-d's word. Christ is on every page of the Bible, Genesis to Revelation[You would be shocked how much is revealed in Leviticus!] Satan is a duplicator, in fact in the NT the two Greek words translated as anti-christ mean either "over and against" or "substitute". So Satan had ample time prior to the coming of Christ to begin deceiving pagan man regarding a "substitute" triun godhead. Every biblically sound Christian knows about the ancient pagan mystery religions, read Hislop's Two Babylons, and it always amuses me when people approach me like that's some great revelation they are going to pounce me with. Nimrod the hunter was a hunter of mens souls. Look at the Hebrew. Babylon is there at the beginning and it's there at the end. Satan planted this substitute with the very intention, it would seem of causing people to say "Christianity comes from paganism" because the true Messiah came afterward. Satan was also planning something else, it would seem. The early church suffered terrible physical assaults,mutilation,tortures, etc. Being ripped apart by lions. But these brave Christians went to their deaths rather than renounce Christ. This was Satan attempting to destroy the church physically from the outside. Problem is that people saw that level of commitment and the church grew. So what was Satan's next plan? Constantine. Get inside the true church, make it a state religion, POLLUTE IT WITH ALL THOSE FILTHY PAGAN CONCEPTS, and spiritually kill it. And for 1,000 years that dirty perversion called Roman Catholicism did that very well. BUT A REMNANT OF TRUE BELIEVERS NEVER TOTALLY DISAPPEARED! This wonderful group of Christians[some within the Catholic system] whose legacy I have inherited, despite what jdl4ever tries to foist on me, still stand strong today. If JTF is commited to the notion that it is ok to assault Christians for preaching Christ to Jews, that I am "rodef" for doing so, then sadly this partnership is now over.
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When, as I Christian I speak to a Jew about Jesus, it's not about a "new covenant" but rather how Christ fulfills the promise of the same eternal covenant spoken about in Genesis chapter 17.
This is pretty solid in terms of Christian belief, I'd say. I may be wrong though.
Allen-T, let me ask you this. How do you react if a Jew says he's not going to convert or become Christian?
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I smile and walk away. To attempt to do anything other than that is to put yourself in G-d's place. When you put a seed in the ground, what can you do besides water it? You cannot make it grow. It's the same with speaking about Jesus. I am commanded to preach, not create results. Pray for results. The Bible clearly says in the last days very few will accept the truth. It tells us this so we don't get discoureged. 95% of what I read on this forum about Christianity is things I have never seen, feelings I have never felt and things I have never done. It's like homos are always calling Christians bigots. I have never heard a Christian bash a homosexual. I had a gay friend for many years. He bashed Christianity around the clock and dumped me when I became one.
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I am only here to defend myself against Sullivan's filthy lies. As soon as I am either banned permanently or he admits he's lying I'm gone
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And just for the record, in my 10 years as a Christian I have possibly preached Christ to 5 Jews, none of them accepted.
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Here is my refutation, and then some;
Hello,
Here are my comments of Chaims statement; The fundamental problem I have with Chaims analogy of Genesis chapter 17 is that circumsion of the flesh is done as a badge of the eternal covenant, or as the evidence of it, NOT to achieve the covenant as Chaim seems to be saying. The cutting off of the soul referred to in Genesis 17;14 had a practical application prior to what is taught in the New Testament, which is better described as a fullfillment of the SAME eternal covenant. So focusing on an evidence of the covenant which does change with the coming of Jesus and saying it in itself is an inseperable part of the actual unchanging covenant is wrong, in my view. A Christian parallel would be that we are not saved by works, but when we are saved works are produced, which is an evidence of real salvation. When, as I Christian I speak to a Jew about Jesus, it's not about a "new covenant" but rather how Christ fulfills the promise of the same eternal covenant spoken about in Genesis chapter 17. One other issue I would like to address which was brought to my attention is the notion that Christianity's triun Godhead concept is in fact stolen from ancient pagan mystery religions. The father of paganism is Satan. Satan, according to the scriptures was called Lucifer prior to the fall[Isaiah 14-and yes I know there is also a historical application of these verses]. Lucifer was the highest angel in heaven, angel numero uno. In that position and proximity to G-d, it is certainly plausible that he had either direct knowledge, or knew enough to suspect a triun aspect of G-d. Move forward to the beginnings of the written Word. Job chapter 1 verse 7 talks about Satan "going to and fro in the earth,and from walking up and down in it". Since the minute G-d began to reveal himself to man, Satan has been taking notes, analyzing G-d's word. Christ is on every page of the Bible, Genesis to Revelation[You would be shocked how much is revealed in Leviticus!] Satan is a duplicator, in fact in the NT the two Greek words translated as anti-christ mean either "over and against" or "substitute". So Satan had ample time prior to the coming of Christ to begin deceiving pagan man regarding a "substitute" triun godhead. Every biblically sound Christian knows about the ancient pagan mystery religions, read Hislop's Two Babylons, and it always amuses me when people approach me like that's some great revelation they are going to pounce me with. Nimrod the hunter was a hunter of mens souls. Look at the Hebrew. Babylon is there at the beginning and it's there at the end. Satan planted this substitute with the very intention, it would seem of causing people to say "Christianity comes from paganism" because the true Messiah came afterward. Satan was also planning something else, it would seem. The early church suffered terrible physical assaults,mutilation,tortures, etc. Being ripped apart by lions. But these brave Christians went to their deaths rather than renounce Christ. This was Satan attempting to destroy the church physically from the outside. Problem is that people saw that level of commitment and the church grew. So what was Satan's next plan? Constantine. Get inside the true church, make it a state religion, POLLUTE IT WITH ALL THOSE FILTHY PAGAN CONCEPTS, and spiritually kill it. And for 1,000 years that dirty perversion called Roman Catholicism did that very well. BUT A REMNANT OF TRUE BELIEVERS NEVER TOTALLY DISAPPEARED! This wonderful group of Christians[some within the Catholic system] whose legacy I have inherited, despite what jdl4ever tries to foist on me, still stand strong today. If JTF is commited to the notion that it is ok to assault Christians for preaching Christ to Jews, that I am "rodef" for doing so, then sadly this partnership is now over.
If you knew about judaism, you would know that Satan is NOT a renegade evil force in opposition to G_d. He is fully under G_d's control and used to tempt us. He is also G_d's prosecutor.
Secondly the bible mentions a messiah aka annointed one (christos in latin). As far as mentioning yeshua ben yusef the carpenter it doesn't mention him once nor anything about him.
Lastly, You may not realise it, but telling jews that god has human form and flesh is absolute sacrilidge. It's quite literally as bad as me saying jesus was a drag queen. You wouldn't like it.
I can only assume you doubt your own faith if you keep trying to convince yourself of it's authenticity by trying to convince others.
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What I know is the totality of scripture gives the clearest picture. Jesus is not mentioned by name in the Tanack but for example the different offerings in Leviticus, when you look at different ingredients that were always included, or that couldn't ever be included, you see pictures of the different characteristics of Christ. Honey, for example would be omitted to represent the fact that Jesus never sugar coated things. He spoke in love, but firm. I haven't studied that in awhile but it's profound.
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I wouldn't like it if someone said Jesus was a drag Queen. But if they were willing to help me fight a cause, and agreed to keep that to themselves around me, I wouldn't mind if they started telling that to other Christians who wanted to entertain such foolishness because anything can be a gateway to meaningful conversation, assuming you know what you are talking about.
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hmmmmmmm
“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more” (Jeremiah 31:31-34).
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Here is my refutation, and then some;
Hello,
Here are my comments of Chaims statement; The fundamental problem I have with Chaims analogy of Genesis chapter 17 is that circumsion of the flesh is done as a badge of the eternal covenant, or as the evidence of it, NOT to achieve the covenant as Chaim seems to be saying. The cutting off of the soul referred to in Genesis 17;14 had a practical application prior to what is taught in the New Testament, which is better described as a fullfillment of the SAME eternal covenant. So focusing on an evidence of the covenant which does change with the coming of Jesus and saying it in itself is an inseperable part of the actual unchanging covenant is wrong, in my view. A Christian parallel would be that we are not saved by works, but when we are saved works are produced, which is an evidence of real salvation. When, as I Christian I speak to a Jew about Jesus, it's not about a "new covenant" but rather how Christ fulfills the promise of the same eternal covenant spoken about in Genesis chapter 17. One other issue I would like to address which was brought to my attention is the notion that Christianity's triun Godhead concept is in fact stolen from ancient pagan mystery religions. The father of paganism is Satan. Satan, according to the scriptures was called Lucifer prior to the fall[Isaiah 14-and yes I know there is also a historical application of these verses]. Lucifer was the highest angel in heaven, angel numero uno. In that position and proximity to G-d, it is certainly plausible that he had either direct knowledge, or knew enough to suspect a triun aspect of G-d. Move forward to the beginnings of the written Word. Job chapter 1 verse 7 talks about Satan "going to and fro in the earth,and from walking up and down in it". Since the minute G-d began to reveal himself to man, Satan has been taking notes, analyzing G-d's word. Christ is on every page of the Bible, Genesis to Revelation[You would be shocked how much is revealed in Leviticus!] Satan is a duplicator, in fact in the NT the two Greek words translated as anti-christ mean either "over and against" or "substitute". So Satan had ample time prior to the coming of Christ to begin deceiving pagan man regarding a "substitute" triun godhead. Every biblically sound Christian knows about the ancient pagan mystery religions, read Hislop's Two Babylons, and it always amuses me when people approach me like that's some great revelation they are going to pounce me with. Nimrod the hunter was a hunter of mens souls. Look at the Hebrew. Babylon is there at the beginning and it's there at the end. Satan planted this substitute with the very intention, it would seem of causing people to say "Christianity comes from paganism" because the true Messiah came afterward. Satan was also planning something else, it would seem. The early church suffered terrible physical assaults,mutilation,tortures, etc. Being ripped apart by lions. But these brave Christians went to their deaths rather than renounce Christ. This was Satan attempting to destroy the church physically from the outside. Problem is that people saw that level of commitment and the church grew. So what was Satan's next plan? Constantine. Get inside the true church, make it a state religion, POLLUTE IT WITH ALL THOSE FILTHY PAGAN CONCEPTS, and spiritually kill it. And for 1,000 years that dirty perversion called Roman Catholicism did that very well. BUT A REMNANT OF TRUE BELIEVERS NEVER TOTALLY DISAPPEARED! This wonderful group of Christians[some within the Catholic system] whose legacy I have inherited, despite what jdl4ever tries to foist on me, still stand strong today. If JTF is commited to the notion that it is ok to assault Christians for preaching Christ to Jews, that I am "rodef" for doing so, then sadly this partnership is now over.
If you knew about judaism, you would know that Satan is NOT a renegade evil force in opposition to G_d. He is fully under G_d's control and used to tempt us. He is also G_d's prosecutor.
Secondly the bible mentions a messiah aka annointed one (christos in latin). As far as mentioning yeshua ben yusef the carpenter it doesn't mention him once nor anything about him.
Lastly, You may not realise it, but telling jews that G-d has human form and flesh is absolute sacrilidge. It's quite literally as bad as me saying jesus was a drag queen. You wouldn't like it.
I can only assume you doubt your own faith if you keep trying to convince yourself of it's authenticity by trying to convince others.
Newman, don't assume anything, pick up a NT and read. Jesus commanded us to do this, period. Whether you agree with Christianity or not is irrelevant to figuring that out. Ok, now let's see which genius reads this response and accuses me of proslytizing because he doesn't know how to read whole sentences.
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I'm sorry to intrude, but:
...I had a gay friend for many years. He bashed Christianity around the clock and dumped me when I became one.
???
**gulp**
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"Newman, don't assume anything, pick up a NT and read. Jesus commanded us to do this, period. Whether you agree with Christianity or not is irrelevant to figuring that out. Ok, now let's see which genius reads this response and accuses me of proslytizing because he doesn't know how to read whole sentences."
Jesus commands you to do what ?
Proselytize ? Spread the word ? Missionize ?
And what is the intent of proselytizing ?
To convince Jews to accept Jesus, at which point they cease being Jews.
So in effect, unless you don't want the proselytizing to succeed, you're working to destroy Judaism.
Yet you can't understand why Jews resent this.
Or maybe you do, but you just don't care.
Either way, it's time you moved on.
Have a nice life.
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"Newman, don't assume anything, pick up a NT and read. Jesus commanded us to do this, period. Whether you agree with Christianity or not is irrelevant to figuring that out. Ok, now let's see which genius reads this response and accuses me of proslytizing because he doesn't know how to read whole sentences."
Jesus commands you to do what ?
Proselytize ? Spread the word ? Missionize ?
And what is the intent of proselytizing ?
To convince Jews to accept Jesus, at which point they cease being Jews.
So in effect, unless you don't want the proselytizing to succeed, you're working to destroy Judaism.
Yet you can't understand why Jews resent this.
Or maybe you do, but you just don't care.
Either way, it's time you moved on.
Have a nice life.
Einstein, it's because I understand this I BROUGHT IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE. Jews do convert, they don't all resent it. What do you think they think of you? I can just imagine Sullivan and Yacov right now, praying, "any second he's gonna say something anti-semetic and then we GOT'M!!" Keep dreaming, your dirty smear plot won't work except on the minds of the midgets
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It sounds ironic to me when a person of let’s say Irish or German descent is “telling Jews about Jesus” (another Jew). Jews knew of Jesus before anyone did. They already listened to him and directly to him, and not to his telemarketers 2000 years later. Jews did not accept their fellow Jew’s preaching, and this “internal Jewish affair” should have stayed inside the house, but now we get approached by people thousands of miles away from Israel, who is trying to convince us that our fathers were wrong in rejecting another Jew named Jesus.
If anyone was in the right to preach, that would be the Jews, who gave a spring to at least two major religions.
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Einstein, it's because I understand this I BROUGHT IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE. Jews do convert, they don't all resent it. What do you think they think of you? I can just imagine Sullivan and Yacov right now, praying, "any second he's gonna say something anti-semetic and then we GOT'M!!" Keep dreaming, your dirty smear plot won't work except on the minds of the midgets
The important thing as far as you're concerned is that JTF's leadership and the overwhelming majority of Jews on this forum DO resent it.
We're proud of being Jews and will remain Jews, despite your belief (as evidenced by your contention that proselytizing Jews is exemplary, laudable Christian behavior) that we shouldn't be.
That's something you can't or won't accept.
That's why you're out.
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"Newman, don't assume anything, pick up a NT and read. Jesus commanded us to do this, period. Whether you agree with Christianity or not is irrelevant to figuring that out. Ok, now let's see which genius reads this response and accuses me of proslytizing because he doesn't know how to read whole sentences."
Jesus commands you to do what ?
Proselytize ? Spread the word ? Missionize ?
And what is the intent of proselytizing ?
To convince Jews to accept Jesus, at which point they cease being Jews.
So in effect, unless you don't want the proselytizing to succeed, you're working to destroy Judaism.
Yet you can't understand why Jews resent this.
Or maybe you do, but you just don't care.
Either way, it's time you moved on.
Have a nice life.
Einstein, it's because I understand this I BROUGHT IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE. Jews do convert, they don't all resent it. What do you think they think of you? I can just imagine Sullivan and Yacov right now, praying, "any second he's gonna say something anti-semetic and then we GOT'M!!" Keep dreaming, your dirty smear plot won't work except on the minds of the midgets
The only jews who convert are secular ones who don't know enough to refute your outrageous claims. Never in the history of mankind have christians converted a Torah-learned jew without putting a sword to his throat........and that's always on the cards with you people.
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"Newman, don't assume anything, pick up a NT and read. Jesus commanded us to do this, period. Whether you agree with Christianity or not is irrelevant to figuring that out. Ok, now let's see which genius reads this response and accuses me of proslytizing because he doesn't know how to read whole sentences."
Jesus commands you to do what ?
Proselytize ? Spread the word ? Missionize ?
And what is the intent of proselytizing ?
To convince Jews to accept Jesus, at which point they cease being Jews.
So in effect, unless you don't want the proselytizing to succeed, you're working to destroy Judaism.
Yet you can't understand why Jews resent this.
Or maybe you do, but you just don't care.
Either way, it's time you moved on.
Have a nice life.
Einstein, it's because I understand this I BROUGHT IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE. Jews do convert, they don't all resent it. What do you think they think of you? I can just imagine Sullivan and Yacov right now, praying, "any second he's gonna say something anti-semetic and then we GOT'M!!" Keep dreaming, your dirty smear plot won't work except on the minds of the midgets
The only jews who convert are secular ones who don't know enough to refute your outrageous claims. Never in the history of mankind have christians converted a Torah-learned jew without putting a sword to his throat........and that's always on the cards with you people.
I never thought I'd say this, Imerica isn't so bad after all.
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I never thought I'd say this, Imerica isn't so bad after all.
Maybe you can start the "I wish all Jews were Christians" forum and invite her to participate.
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I never thought I'd say this, Imerica isn't so bad after all.
Maybe you can start the "I wish all Jews were Christians" forum and invite her to participate.
Yeah, Muck. 'wish' being the operative word here 'coz they've got high hopes!
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Friends,
Enough with the posturing back and forth. I'm locking this thread for the time being.
Regards,
Christopher
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hmmmmmmm
“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more” (Jeremiah 31:31-34).
Read the beginning and end of that Chapter before you quote the middle and pretend you know what it is talking about. The new covenent refers to the messianic era when G-d will bring us all back to Israel and we will stay there permanently and never get exiled again bec. G-d will guarantee it in a new covenent as verse 1-6 in that very chapter you quote states: "G-d says: The nation which has survived the sword has found favor in the desert. I went to give Israel rest. G-d appeared to me long ago "I have loved you with everlasting love. Therefore, I continue to love you. I will rebuild you and you will rebuilt O Maiden of Israel. You will again take up your timbrels and go forth dancing with dancers. You will again plant vineyards in the hills of Samaria, people will plant them and redeem them. For a time is coming when watchmen in the hill country of Ephraim will call out: "Come, let us go to Zion to G-d your L-rd" For G-d says, Sing joyously for Jacob! Cry out on the hilltops of the nations! Call out, sing praise and say "O G-d you have saved your people, the remnant of Israel....."
The covenant that we violated is listed in Deuternomy Chapter 28 which in summary says that if we observe the Torah then G-d will bless us making us prosper in Israel and if we break the covenant and we don't observe the Torah then G-d will punish us for breaking it and throw us out and curse us with suffering but eventually forgive us and bring us back to Israel if we heed the covenant again and it concludes:
"These are the words of the convenant that G-d commanded Moses to seal with the Children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant that he sealed with them in Horeb."
G-d's covenants are eternal, and there are several of them listed in the Bible, none violating each other since the Bible states that G-d's laws are eternal and can't ever be changed (Deuteronomy Chapter 13). In messianic times G-d will make yet another covenant in addition to the one listed in Deut. 28 that has even more blessings than the other covenants listed in the Bible.
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Notice the ugly and bitter hatred in Allen's posts. This is Christian "love"?
Allen, YOU are the liar. You are not banned even now but you did a video claiming that you are banned.
I tried reading Allen's response to Chaim but it was so illogical that I had difficulty reading it.
To call Jews "incomplete" or "unfulfilled" is to invalidate the Torah's "eternal covenant". Allen, be honest. You believe that Torah Jews who follow the Torah's "eternal covenant" are going to burn in hell forever.
YOUR ARROGANT AND INTOLERANT BELIEF SYSTEM IS VICIOUSLY ANTI-SEMITIC.
And Allen, you also believe that Catholics are going to burn in hell forever. Come out and say it honestly.
Allen, you ridicule people's intelligence on this forum, sarcastically calling them "geniuses" and "Einsteins". YOUR ARROGANCE IS ONLY EXCEEDED BY YOUR IGNORANCE.
YOU DO NOT SPEAK, READ OR WRITE A WORD OF HEBREW, YET YOU ARE TELLING JEWS WHO ARE FLUENT IN HEBREW WHAT THEIR BIBLE REALLY MEANS. AND YOU ARE DOING IT WITH ARROGANCE AND CONTEMPT.
You know NOTHING about genuine Torah Judaism, yet you lecture Torah Jews on how they are not "saved".
Also as far as your rejection of Catholicism, if you knew anything about history, you would know that the original GENTILE Christians were Catholic or what eventually became Catholicism in Rome. You might claim that there were also other Gentile Christians at the time who believed the way you believe, BUT YOU HAVE NO REAL HISTORICAL PROOF OF THAT AND THE CLAIM IS FALSE. THERE IS HISTORICAL PROOF THAT THE ORIGINAL CHRISTIANS WERE WHAT IS TODAY KNOWN AS CATHOLICISM.