I wonder why this story is getting so much press.
i dont know, but i had read somewhere that ultra orthodox jews are not Zionist?
These people are going to extreme lengths to fight a super strong yetzer hara, and you people think it's a negative thing? These people are prepared for mesiras nefesh. This is a beautiful thing.
As I said above... The glasses will not remove the yetzer hara.... If it is there in any fashion then the glasses will not do a thing. It is a good thing to avoid looking at things we are not supposed to look at... But using tricks like blinders and fuzzy glasses only goes so far. This is like treating the symptom, not the disease...
These people are going to extreme lengths to fight a super strong yetzer hara, and you people think it's a negative thing? These people are prepared for mesiras nefesh. This is a beautiful thing.You said it extreme lengths ... If G-d wanted people to have self control due to poor vision everyone would be as blind as a bat... Religious issues aside putting on glasses to destort vision for any reason is just crazy.
You said it extreme lengths ... If G-d wanted people to have self control due to poor vision everyone would be as blind as a bat... Religious issues aside putting on glasses to destort vision for any reason is just crazy.
If you really care about something that much that you would sacrifice that much for it, I think it's beautiful. We are supposed to do everything to protect the Torah, and this protecting the Torah.What did people do prior to fuzzy vision glasses?
What did people do prior to fuzzy vision glasses?
Fantasized.Well I did not want to get into that aspect of things however now that you opened the door I will put my two cents in... In my opinion not seeing is not going to put a stop to what you mention... If fact it might even make the issue worse.
Well I did not want to get into that aspect of things however now that you opened the door I will put my two cents in... In my opinion not seeing is not going to put a stop to what you mention... If fact it might even make the issue worse.Could go both ways. But at least the on the spot thought of "I want her" will be less frequent. Every little bit counts.
Could go both ways. But at least the on the spot thought of "I want her" will be less frequent. Every little bit counts.I don't want to seem as if I am advocating bad behavior but I still maintain that seeing is only a small part of the problem... The evil inclination is still present and it knows whats out there... A person needs to know how to deal with it.
I don't want to seem as if I am advocating bad behavior but I still maintain that seeing is only a small part of the problem... The evil inclination is still present and it knows whats out there... A person needs to know how to deal with it.
Could go both ways. But at least the on the spot thought of "I want her" will be less frequent. Every little bit counts.
Mo, please! Language! I'm editing your posts.
Edited by Lisa
These people are going to extreme lengths to fight a super strong yetzer hara, and you people think it's a negative thing? These people are prepared for mesiras nefesh. This is a beautiful thing.
It's like getting a filter for ur internet. It's a fence.
Mesiras nefesh lterally like when they get hit by an israeli driver because they couldn't see where they were walking while crossing the street? Is suicide considered "mesiras nefesh?" No, it's a sin. Is putting yourself in a sakana mesiras nefesh?
Is it permitted to purposely damage your eyesight (which I'm pretty sure wearing this kind of blurred lenses will do over time)? It sounds like you want to defend whatever frum people do but this to me is clearly a stupid thing some people are doing
Except its not like that. This would be like taking a computer and smashing it on the ground like tarzan.
And we do not have the authority after chasimas hashas to make up our own fences. But I guess you must mean a similar concept but not actual "takana's"
I do believe that the ultra orthodox jews have got the self control, These glasses could be for those just starting out in this sect/form of Judaism.Well possibly the celibate priests should get them self some glasses also. :P ;D
Many Hindu/Buddhist aesthetics also go away and live in jungles/Himalayas, to keep themselves away from falling prey to this mesmerizing world, it does not mean they wont have self control if they stay in the daily lives among the people.
At least they are doing something, better than poking nuns in the Church, in the guise of celibate Priests.
i dont know, but i had read somewhere that ultra orthodox jews are not Zionist?
Well possibly the celibate priests should get them self some glasses also. :P ;DThe priests will certainly get those glasses for those nuns, so that the nuns wouldn't recognize who ogle at them. :laugh:
Me too. In fact, Bill Maher interviewed one of them in his movie. Apparently some of them think that Zionism will happen in some later age when the messiah comes but that the Jews must continue to live among the nations until then. :o
The priests will certainly get those glasses for those nuns, so that the nuns wouldn't recognize who ogle at them. :laugh::::D Sounds like a good arrangement to me... Personally I could care less what the priest and nuns do between themselves... It's the other activities that were distressing... Still and all I am sure things like that can be found going on with clergy of all religions once the anti-religious media puts their mind to exposing it... The RCC being one of the largest religions was the first to be exposed it doesn't mean they are the only ones that have skeletons in the closet... Roman Catholics were willing to cut their clergy loose when the abuse became wide spread... My question is how many Pastors, Rabbis, Muslim Clerics, snake charming and rat worshiping others are being covered for by their congregations for now.... Time will tell.
:::D Sounds like a good arrangement to me... Personally I could care less what the priest and nuns do between themselves... It's the other activities that were distressing... Still and all I am sure things like that can be found going on with clergy of all religions once the anti-religious media puts their mind to exposing it... The RCC being one of the largest religions was the first to be exposed it doesn't mean they are the only ones that have skeletons in the closet... Roman Catholics were willing to cut their clergy loose when the abuse became wide spread... My question is how many Pastors, Rabbis, Muslim Clerics, snake charming and rat worshiping others are being covered for by their congregations for now.... Time will tell.All religions may have skeletons in their closet, but the non-proselyting ones have put their efforts and energies into reforming and teaching the right way to their own people. They dont go around converting others when the decay in their own sect continues to grow. I know many American Catholic Evangelists operating outside USA, because they are unable to teach about the gospel to their own people, and find it very easy to convert a poor asian or poor israeli landing fresh in Israel with a morsel of bread and accommodations. And because of such people, the Charedis have to keep sparring with the Messianics.
It's like going on a diet, or restraining from harmful things. Sometimes the evil inclination is soooo strong that you have to do whatever it takes because you will fail otherwise. I know what that's like. These people are devout, cannot control their yetzer hara, so they have to do something drastic all in the name of Hashem and trying to do mitzvos. What's wrong with trying to observe the Torah WITH EVERY FIBER OF YOUR BEING AND YOUR EXISTENCE? Out sole purpose on earth is to serve Hashem, all the time. This is ultimate service of Hashem to say that you will do whatever it takes to ensure that your service to Him does not get hindered. They are admitting that theu cannot help themselves - - - we are human - - - so they are doing what they can to fight the bad thoughts. What the hell is wrong with trying to serve HASHEM AS BEST AS YOU CAN?
Mo I think what are saying is a beautiful thing and your defense is a beautiful thing. So I agree with your point of view in how you are saying it. Religious Jews who need such blinders should use them if it helps them.
In my opinion, I think its just plain funny and ridiculous.
I just don't understand frummers who want to be more frum than moshe rabbeinu. I think at some point a rebbie has to say "stop one second. Do you want Gd to make a real consideration on your abilities to be pure and righteous? Use the very self control He gave you. He had given you all free will. Blocking the animal will instead of simply saying, 'no' when it is in front of you and threatening you, has more merit to Hashem."
All religions may have skeletons in their closet, but the non-proselyting ones have put their efforts and energies into reforming and teaching the right way to their own people. They dont go around converting others when the decay in their own sect continues to grow. I know many American Catholic Evangelists operating outside USA, because they are unable to teach about the gospel to their own people, and find it very easy to convert a poor asian or poor israeli landing fresh in Israel with a morsel of bread and accommodations. And because of such people, the Charedis have to keep sparring with the Messianics.Personally I have never seen any proselytizing activity by the RCC... I have noticed that the Protestant churches are far more active with that activity... The fact that you talk about bibles being distributed leads me to believe that it was some other Christian church and not the RCC... The RCC really does not indoctrinate their congregation with bible study... I find it very hard to believe that they are the ones distributing the bibles your talking about...
For the RCs distributing the bible to the members of Israeli Knesset, is part of a divine work, yet they wont even try to do this in Socialist European countries, as their divine work will fall flat on its face.
If you need fuzzy glasses to navigate your way through life, or right and wrong, you should just stay home. TV Off. Computer Off. Nose in the book.
I can't look at a girl's pinky??? So confused right now.lol. You can't disagree with the Talmud :::D :::D :::D
Nobody ever gave themselves heart problems to avoid bacon. I don't think such an absurdity as glasses that function like my eyes are mainstream, they should however be denounced.
Someone explain me the little finger thing, I'm completely lost. While that never made it to my list of fetishes, I don't see how that makes sense and is in line with Torah. Am I denouncing Judaism if I don't agree with some aspects of the Talmud (if you don't convince me about the finger thing)?
lol. You can't disagree with the Talmud :::D :::D :::D
Ok laugh it up, but this is my source for Judaism seriously, am I like a heretic if I disagree with the Talmud saying that, and believe female little fingers are not sexual, except... well a very weird fetish that I never did or plan on trying...Wasn't laughin at you. Was laughing at the question.
Wasn't laughin at you. Was laughing at the question.
except... well a very weird fetish that I never did or plan on trying...Come on!
No it is saying that *if you stare in the wrong way and derive some pleasure even from a finger its forbidden. That doesn't mean that a lady should now cover up her pinky as well. It is telling you the man- that you should know what and who you are and that doing certain things with your eyes if it makes certain thoughts its not allowed. It does not mean that now a women should cover her pinky for you. Their are certain guidelines for tzniyut (modesty) and its terrible to turn either left or right on these issues. Both extremes are wrong and crazy. On the one hand a lady walking in a biki in front of men (for example regular beach) and on the other the tents that islamics have (both extremes are wrong) for example.
The entire responsibility is on the man...I agree! If we are that much of a piece of drek that we can not control ourselves, and not push ourselves on women... Than we should be punished!
I think this is both sensationalism and retarded as well.lol true.
If someone want to use them, by all means just don't drive (which Haredim don't in Israel),
What's chasimas hashas? And how does that apply to making fences?
I'm sure it's only for sidewalk use or at malls, and if it ruined their vision it WOULD be assur and they wouldn't be doing it. There's no sakana otherwise they wouldn't do it. It's just to not see pretty women. Everything else is taken care of, don't jump to conclusions.
Besides, what's wrong with smashing a computer it prevents aveiros?
Not everybody is as strong-willed as you are. Just because you either hate religious people or think you are more religious than them doesn't give you the right to tell a person how to fight his/yetzer hara.
Ok laugh it up, but this is my source for Judaism seriously, am I like a heretic if I disagree with the Talmud saying that, and believe female little fingers are not sexual, except... well a very weird fetish that I never did or plan on trying...
How is it that I am "more religious" than them? They are the ones with insane sexual chumras. They are the super frum. But guess what. It's my kids (someday) and your kids (someday) who will not be allowed into school unless their parent signs an agreement to walk around with fuzzy glasses. Look, you are young and naive. You don't understand the politics in our world. It is getting sicker and sicker by the day and ENCOURAGING insane behavior does not help the Jewish people, it makes things worse.
Aw cmon dude I was at the dead sea and there were girls in bikinis and I'm not staring or fantasizing about having sex with anyone,
Next, why can't you just enjoy the beauty of a women, her legs for example, without wanting to ...
???You think it's a bad idea. I personally think the means justify ends. Just because it doesn't make sense to a lot of people doesn't mean it can't be beneficial to their society as a whole. If they feel that it has to come to this, who are we to tell them how to stay away from bad things? We're not in their shoes.
You completely missed the point.
When I said this "Except its not like that. This would be like taking a computer and smashing it on the ground like tarzan. "
I said that because you tried to equate the fuzzy glasses with an internet filter. I was demonstrating to you logically that it is nothing like an internet filter. It is like someone taking a computer and smashing it as his response to the fact that there are good and bad sites on the internet.
You respond with "smashing a computer is a good idea"
I give up.
Lol, I hate religious people? So I hate myself?
How is it that I am "more religious" than them? They are the ones with insane sexual chumras. They are the super frum. But guess what. It's my kids (someday) and your kids (someday) who will not be allowed into school unless their parent signs an agreement to walk around with fuzzy glasses. Look, you are young and naive. You don't understand the politics in our world. It is getting sicker and sicker by the day and ENCOURAGING insane behavior does not help the Jewish people, it makes things worse.
Meanwhile, did I ridicule something here? No. I pointed out how dangerous it is. And how harmful it is to the eyes. And how stupid it happens to be. So why do you take that as an insult? How about, instead of taking offense or going on the defensive as if I'm "attacking" religious people, why don't you consider the points I made and not just assume it must be ok since an orthodox Jew is doing it. Ever entertain the idea that I might be right about something?
WHAT?!You think they would actually have a death wish? I see what your saying, but that's not what I meant. What I meant was that it's preposterous to think that they would just openly commit suicide as you say.
Let me see if I get this straight. Your logic goes like this: You have decided that there can't be a sakana involved since orthodox jews are doing xyz. These Jews would never do something if it was incorrect or dangerous, therefore whatever they do, including thing xyz, cannot possibly be dangerous or incorrect since by definition Orthodox Jews Don't Do Dangerous Things. Therefore wearing fuzzy glasses must be correct and wise.
Wow. Logical fallacy.
You think it's a bad idea. I personally think the means justify ends. Just because it doesn't make sense to a lot of people doesn't mean it can't be beneficial to their society as a whole. If they feel that it has to come to this, who are we to tell them how to stay away from bad things? We're not in their shoes.
You think they would actually have a death wish? I see what your saying, but that's not what I meant. What I meant was that it's preposterous to think that they would just openly commit suicide as you say.
But by saying it's a really dumb idea, I'm not telling anyone to not stay away from bad things.What do you suggest as an alternative? Just have the women come into their field of vision and let whatever happens happen?
And Judaism is not machiavellian. halacha operates by accounting for both the means and the ends. We cannot just do things any way we want because we think it's a good end. Tzedek Tzedek Tirdof is often explained how we have to pursue justice properly, not just pursue justice (why the word is repeated).
No but they are putting themselves in a sakana, and I think that's a really obvious point. How can it be denied?A sakana=suicide. Putting yourself in a dangerous situation on purpose is self-destructive. Why would you think they would want to do that?
I asked you the suicide question merely as a rhetorical device.
What do you suggest as an alternative? Just have the women come into their field of vision and let whatever happens happen?
A sakana=suicide. Putting yourself in a dangerous situation on purpose is self-destructive. Why would you think they would want to do that?
Never mind. You're right. We should all just figure out a different way, and they are all willingly and knowingly endangering their own lives in happiness. I'm sure they didn't think about the all of the danger and safety hazards, and they will be happy to kill others and themselves. :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:
Why can't women be in the field of vision? Men need to learn how to control themselves. Men should not be walking around with the intention of oogling whatever is around. I've been secular and now religious. I know there are two different kinds of walking around. And going around with that intention or not - is definitely in the person's control. If a guy is walking around "looking for material," (so to speak) a pair of glasses isn't going to help them anyway, they are being negligent and of course that leads to sin and at least sinful thoughts.You've just described their world, by the way. There are people who don't do any of those things. I'm not here to judge them. That said, it's not about self-control. It's about looking at a woman. That's it. It's not about anything else but looking at a woman. Plain and simple.
If you are leaving bet midrash and walking home and there happens to be a lady passing you on the sidewalk, so what? On shabbos, when I'm alone and a woman by herself passes me by I greet them "good shabbos." Same as if it was a man. But if you are walking around waiting for the moment any lady will pass or come near so you'll have the chance to check out her goods, of course you're going to stare/look in a bad way. I just don't get why the fact that women are around means men have to sin. That's not the case.
If you are talking about women walking around in bikinis, then that makes sense, but most places on earth that is not happening.
And if a woman just "in the field of vision" is a problem, then how can someone do business with a woman, or shop in a supermarket, or have to TALK to a woman (like a shadchan for their kid or friend/relative, or maybe a rebitzen to inquire about their rabbi) etc etc.
See, it starts with walking in the street, then it will go to buses, then schools, then shopping malls, then supermarket, etc. This is how this crazy stuff gets started. Because it's an easy "jump" to all those other things once it's accepted for walking on the sidewalk.
Well let's see. They are walking around with purposely distorted and obstructed vision. Yes, that endangers their lives. Therefore they are purposely endangering their lives. They just think it's for the "greater good" of blocking out the sight of any women.yes, sakana=danger which is life threatening. According to you that's what they are doing intentionally. Not caring about who gets harmed.
Killing others and themselves? ....you're getting emotional again.
And by the way, No, Sakana does not = suicide. Sakana is danger.
Well let's see. They are walking around with purposely distorted and obstructed vision. Yes, that endangers their lives. Therefore they are purposely endangering their lives. They just think it's for the "greater good" of blocking out the sight of any women.Seeing a woman is wonderful. We should all do it. Every piece of Torah advocates that we should look at women. Judaism evolves with the times, get with the times and start looking at women.
Killing others and themselves? ....you're getting emotional again.
And by the way, No, Sakana does not = suicide. Sakana is danger.
See this is what happens when you have frum papers that edit pictures to remove women (including women who are dressed modestly) so we cannot see the image of any woman or woman's face in a newspaper, and they take out a modestly dressed married lady from an old picture of the chofetz chaim which is blatant stalinism and revisionist history. It gives people (apparently people like you) the impression that even SEEING a woman is a sin. Even if it's just her face or she's completely modest. That's not a sin.
You've just described their world, by the way. There are people who don't do any of those things.
What do you suggest as an alternative? Just have the women come into their field of vision and let whatever happens happen?
yes, sakana=danger which is life threatening. According to you that's what they are doing intentionally. Not caring about who gets harmed.
It depends what kind of neighborhood. Chasidim won't say hello to a woman and a chassidic woman won't say hello to them. But other neighborhoods people will greet each other and it's considered normal. Even very frum people.A 17 year old with raging hormones who never spoke to a girl on his life will be unaffected by the woman in front of him? Even if he looks away, if she comes into his field of vision for a split second, it still triggers a small thought.
But a person who doesn't go around "scoping out babes" doesn't need fuzzy glasses. For example, those chassidim who woulnd't even say hello to a woman and would barely even look at a woman in the street. They really don't have need for glasses. And the perverted guy that is going around looking to oogle women on the street will not be helped by fuzzy glasses because he is negligent. The whole thing is pointless.
Seeing a woman is wonderful. We should all do it. Every piece of Torah advocates that we should look at women. Judaism evolves with the times, get with the times and start looking at women.
Yes, they are prioritizing making sure a woman never enters their field of vision OVER the possible harm it does to themselves and the danger it puts themselves in by obstructing their vision. That's a description of the reality, not an opinion.If that is, indeed, the case, do you really think the gedolim would allow that? It's worse to do cause harm than to look at a chick for a second. If they are that crazy, then they aren't religious at all. Anybody who commits an act like that is just as treacherous as the suicidal sickos who run the country and would rather have Arabs live there and take away Jewish land.
If that is, indeed, the case, do you really think the gedolim would allow that? It's worse to do cause harm than to look at a chick for a second. If they are that crazy, then they aren't religious at all. Anybody who commits an act like that is just as treacherous as the suicidal sickos who run the country and would rather have Arabs live there and take away Jewish land.
So a frum lady should be edited out of a photo of the Chofetz Chaim? This is a famous example of stalinish censorship where they wiped out a frum lady from the picture to pretend that Chofetz Chaim would only be surrounded by men. But a woman being in his vicinity is not a sin. And seeing a frum woman in a picture is also not a sin, she's completely modest and nothing sexual about it, you can barely even make out the faces in the photo its an old black and white fuzzy picture.You think they shouldn't do what they feel most comfortable doing? Just understand their society for a second. They are as against anything that has to do with a woman as we are against Obama. I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying the reality in their society is that do whatever it takes to not see women. Period. However, if it causes danger to people, it's obviously aveira gorerres mitzva, which of course is assur.
You're not making any sense. You're just putting words in my mouth to make me appear frei. That's how you win an argument?
Who? allow what?The gedolim would allow them to endanger themselves and others? Why would the gedolim paskin that it's allowed to do something which is assur?
A 17 year old with raging hormones who never spoke to a girl on his life will be unaffected by the woman in front of him? Even if he looks away, if she comes into his field of vision for a split second, it still triggers a small thought.
If you buy yourself a small trunk like the one Houdini used to lock himself in, get a straight jacket and tie yourself up, then have your friend lock the trunk with you inside, you will never encounter a single woman, not even your grandma. Is that the solution to life's problems?I don't believe in that stuff, I just believe you gotta do what you believe is right. If they believe it's right, then let them do it. I'm not in their shoes. Just let them do whatever they need to do to survive.
a 17 year old with raging hormones is normal - G-d made it that 17 year olds will experience that. part of growing up is learning to deal with that and behaving properly despite those hormones. a woman "entering the field of vision" is something a grown man has to be able to deal with because there are women in the world and you can't hide.
And one day you will have a wife. She will be woman. You will have to deal with her in ways other than just sexual stuff! She's a person. And so is the 65 year old lady you see in the corner of your eye on the street pushing a stroller. A woman, not a sexual object. By erasing women from historical pictures, and putting glasses so that woman will not be seen in the street, you are actually making them into purely sexual objects. By learning to deal with the emotions and hormones, a 17 year old has to teach himself that women are not just sexual objects. I don't know how to explain it but it seems like something so obvious. But since you have been culturally influenced that even a woman's face in a photograph is a sinful temptation, there is really no way to explain reality to you I guess.
If that is, indeed, the case, do you really think the gedolim would allow that?
Correct me if I am wrong, but is this not a bizarre fringe practice carried out by a few extreme Charedi that is being blown up to make religious Jews look like a bunch of loons?Could be.
I don't believe in that stuff, I just believe you gotta do what you believe is right. If they believe it's right, then let them do it. I'm not in their shoes. Just let them do whatever they need to do to survive.
The gedolim would allow them to endanger themselves and others? Why would the gedolim paskin that it's allowed to do something which is assur?
survive?As I said, if it does cause harm, it's horrible.
This is where it doesn't make any sense. You have made "woman in the field of vision" into a life and death situation, which it isn't.
And yet, a real life and death situation, like not being able to see where you are walking, or crossing the street, has somehow been turned into a minor squabble. Total confusion of priorities and common sense.
What gedolim? Allow what?They can be excommunicated and/or arrested for harming others.
There are gedolim who are in control of what glasses get sold in stores and what things people buy? You have been misled to believe that Jewish society is run like the wizard of Oz where some rabbis sit behind the curtain and direct everything.
That is another thing you have to learn. People behave as they wish and gedolim do not control it. If enough people do something it becomes a fait accompli. Whether a gadol originally said "Do this" or not. And similarly even if only a small amount of people are doing something, it's a free economy, even if a gadol says "Do not buy xyz" there will still be people who do because they don't follow that gadol, or some other gadol said it's ok, or their personal rav. Or they see others doing it so they accept it. Etc.
Consider crox. When they came out, it became a big fad that orthodox Jews wear crox on yom kippur. Very very popular and common. Because it's decent footwear but it's clearly not fancy shoes and no leather. But you can stand and pray in it for hours. So lots of people got it. Remember a few years ago Rav Eliashiv ZT"L said crox are forbidden for YK? Consider how many Jews still wear it. Because people have their own rabbis and most did not ever say you can't wear crox. And very few people sat down and said, well since that big gadol said it, I have to decide now maybe I can't really wear them. Some people reacted like that but many ignored it actually.
I think the real answer is for men and women to marry young like they did in Biblical times, like they were designed to do. Marrying in your mid-late twenties or, G-d forbid, thirties, because of career considerations, etc. is just ridiculous and forces more sexual temptation upon humans than they were ever designed to withstand.There has to be means of support for ppl to get married.
There has to be means of support for ppl to get married.People don't need to make 50k a year to live on their own and support a family. Look at the pioneers in Israel who have large families at young ages despite dire poverty. I would venture to guess that most working/middle-class Westerners are in more comfortable shape than they are, even before they get decent jobs. Are people really in absolute dire straits or do they want to get a nicely furnished home, boat, swimming pool, etc. before they marry/have kids?
People don't need to make 50k a year to live on their own and support a family. Look at the pioneers in Israel who have large families at young ages despite dire poverty. I would venture to guess that most working/middle-class Westerners are in more comfortable shape than they are, even before they get decent jobs. Are people really in absolute dire straits or do they want to get a nicely furnished home, boat, swimming pool, etc. before they marry/have kids?I agree. But Yeshiva tuition and kosher food and all that sutff is a killer.
People don't need to make 50k a year to live on their own and support a family. Look at the pioneers in Israel who have large families at young ages despite dire poverty. I would venture to guess that most working/middle-class Westerners are in more comfortable shape than they are, even before they get decent jobs. Are people really in absolute dire straits or do they want to get a nicely furnished home, boat, swimming pool, etc. before they marry/have kids?
I don't believe in that stuff, I just believe you gotta do what you believe is right. If they believe it's right, then let them do it. I'm not in their shoes. Just let them do whatever they need to do to survive.
Mo, how do you sit at a shabbos table? There are women serving food. Or do you only go to shabbos meal where there's a mechitza and siblings and wife sits elsewhere?IT'S NOT ABOUT ME! I LOOK AT WOMEN, HAVE HAD PLENTY OF GIRLFRIENDS ETC. AND FRIENDS WHO ARE GIRLS. I'M JUST DEFENDING THEM FOR TRYING. STOP SAYING THAT I LIVE LIKE THEM. I DON'T. NOT BY ANY STRETCH. I JUST BELIEVE THEY SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE SO LONG AS THEY DON'T HARM.
For me, it's not just that I don't do things that way, but I see that doing things that way is unnecessary and an incorrect way to live. It's extra chumra that doesn't make sense to me and certainly isn't required. I'm allowed to have an opinion on that and so are you. I choose not to be chassidic and like my litvak ancestors of the glorious past, I view my own way as correct and that's ok. I'll share a secret with you, the chasidim also think that they are doing things right and others are mistaken.
That's like arguing let the hiloni newspapers do what they believe is right. The "live and let live" argument. True in a sense, but never-the-less problematic and true Judaism does not work like that. We can't and should not have (in Israel especially) on the one hand a modestly women's picture in a magazine being blurred out and on the other hand have magazines with a picture of a lady with a swimsuit on where you can see most of her chest exposed as well. These are 2 unhealthy extremes that make society worse off and we do not need to support either of these positions. Also its even worse that both extremes are getting worse and worse with time. A healthy society is balanced properly.YOUR idea of healthy society is not theirs. Not even close. We will never be able to understand them.
Well the amount can vary but people do need a job at least.You don't need to be a senior partner or manager at your firm or office, in your mid-thirties, before you can afford marriage and family.
You don't need to be a senior partner or manager at your firm or office, in your mid-thirties, before you can afford marriage and family.Yeah, food, clothing, shelter is expensive.
Mo, how do you sit at a shabbos table? There are women serving food. Or do you only go to shabbos meal where there's a mechitza and siblings and wife sits elsewhere?
For me, it's not just that I don't do things that way, but I see that doing things that way is unnecessary and an incorrect way to live. It's extra chumra that doesn't make sense to me and certainly isn't required. I'm allowed to have an opinion on that and so are you. I choose not to be chassidic and like my litvak ancestors of the glorious past, I view my own way as correct and that's ok. I'll share a secret with you, the chasidim also think that they are doing things right and others are mistaken.
That's like arguing let the hiloni newspapers do what they believe is right. The "live and let live" argument. True in a sense, but never-the-less problematic and true Judaism does not work like that. We can't and should not have (in Israel especially) on the one hand a modestly women's picture in a magazine being blurred out and on the other hand have magazines with a picture of a lady with a swimsuit on where you can see most of her chest exposed as well. These are 2 unhealthy extremes that make society worse off and we do not need to support either of these positions. Also its even worse that both extremes are getting worse and worse with time. A healthy society is balanced properly.
The most absurd is when they blur out the faces of little girls on purim advertisements showing kids in costumes. Maybe they should also blur out the faces of the little boys so gay pedophiles won't be tempted. I mean, if they are already taking away temptation from miniscule population of straight pedophiles out there, why not include the gay ones too.That very well may be. But it all comes down to them doing whatever they feel is best for their own yetzer haras. Who are we to tell them what to do? It's sad, but if they feel they have to, then they should.
It's an embarrassment and a disgrace to give people the impression that average Torah Jews routinely get sexual thoughts from little kids on an advertisement for a purim store or whatever. Or to give me the impression that the editors feel that is how Torah Jews will react. It's sick.
You just admitted that you believe it's incorrect for them. That's what I was trying to say all along. What gives any of us the right to dictate how should live as long as it doesn't harm themselves or others?
Why is it hard to live in an apartment instead of a mansion, have one car instead of two, fix your own food instead of eating at fancy restaurants, etc.?I agree with you. People are used to a certain lifestyle and they believe so strongly in it that anybody who does otherwise is in the wrong. Like, it cannot be possible at all that people do something contrary to how they believe society should be. People are acclimated to a certain way and they cannot survive without that way of life. But, an apartment can be expensive too.
You notice that the majority of Westerners (Gentile and Jewish alike) that refuse to marry until they have "arrived" financially have no problem shacking-up with their significant others at relatively young ages, and often living that way for years and even having children with them. Is there really a reason why they could not have married?
That very well may be. But it all comes down to them doing whatever they feel is best for their own yetzer haras. Who are we to tell them what to do? It's sad, but if they feel they have to, then they should.
1. Because it does harm them.Again, I agree that if there is harm, it is horrible. They are not making a halacha, they are just buying stuff to help them because they feel they need it. It's one thing to have an opinion, but it's another to compare them to your standards. You have to see that there are people out there who do things that we will never be able to fathom because they are so far removed from our lifestyle. Why can't they just be different? Why does everybody have to fit the same criteria - - - the criteria explicitly made by you?
2. Because I am allowed to have an opinion.
3. Because their craziness will come to affect me when they promote it in the Jewish world. The chumras of chasidim in kashrut have come to dominate all of orthodox kashrus because of their activism. And similarly societal trends and cultural norms. As is natural, they spread. And what used to be something relegated to some small tiny population, later on becomes "just the chasidim," and later still becomes, "If you don't do that you are not frum."
4. Because I am allowed to have an opinion. And when they make up their own halachas I can say it doesn't make sense because I am arguing for the Torah's honor.
And as I said, many people who have good intentions commit errors and bad sins. Because usually people are not malicious. Just stupid, or misguided, or mistaken, or they don't have priorities straight. So "just let them do as they feel is right" is not valid because you are assuming that since they have good intentions (or what in your opinion are good intentions) then it's ok. But sometimes good intentions lead us on the wrong path.And I already said, if anything bad comes out of it, specifically harm to humans, then it is wrong. If nobody gets harmed, and only good comes out of it, then it is good.
There's a famous saying actually called 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions.' or something like that.
And I already said, if anything bad comes out of it, specifically harm to humans, then it is wrong. If nobody gets harmed, and only good comes out of it, then it is good.Only time will tell, I guess. I have to go to sleep.
That very well may be. But it all comes down to them doing whatever they feel is best for their own yetzer haras. Who are we to tell them what to do? It's sad, but if they feel they have to, then they should.
You do know (or should know) that many if not most or all of the times the "they" are thugs within the community who terrorize the rest of the Jewish Orthodox or even "ultra-Orthodox" community who conform to their "standards".So a Rabbi, a Priest, and an Imam walk into a bar.
But yea what KWRBT said I did not hear before nor did I ever even think of such a scenario arising, but it is truly sick.
You do know (or should know) that many if not most or all of the times the "they" are thugs within the community who terrorize the rest of the Jewish Orthodox or even "ultra-Orthodox" community to conform to their "standards".
But yea what KWRBT said I did not hear before nor did I ever even think of such a scenario arising, but it is truly sick.
And as I said, many people who have good intentions commit errors and bad sins. Because usually people are not malicious. Just stupid, or misguided, or mistaken, or they don't have priorities straight. So "just let them do as they feel is right" is not valid because you are assuming that since they have good intentions (or what in your opinion are good intentions) then it's ok. But sometimes good intentions lead us on the wrong path.
There's a famous saying actually called 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions.' or something like that.
Im amazed that this story has brought out Haredim bashing in some of the members here.
It's not so much about self control as it is about what that split second of looking at a woman can do to your mind. Like if you look at a beautiful woman on the street, even just a glimpse, it still triggers a thought. That one thought is detrimental. They are in a whole different world, and I think that we shouldn't judge until we are in their shoes (an idea out of Pirkei Avos).
Mo I have no doubt any of them or even you and me would trigger split second thoughts. Thoughts and feelings are not sins. Acting upon sinful behavior is the sin.Incorrect. You're not supposed to think about such things, let alone look at a woman for a split second.
Religious Jews should never try to outdo Moses.
Incorrect. You're not supposed to think about such things, let alone look at a woman for a split second.
The thoughts are not the sin, my friend. It's what you do with those thoughts that can be sinful.http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1754248/jewish/Is-There-Anything-Wrong-with-Sinful-Thought.htm
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1754248/jewish/Is-There-Anything-Wrong-with-Sinful-Thought.htm
Sinful thoughts when it comes to sexual things is worse, true. But not thoughts of committing most other sins (maybe besides idolatry). The thought itself is not a sin, unless it is actualized, then the thoughts are put together with the action and counted. This applies for Jews out of G-D's kindness, but a gentiles evil thoughts are counted as are actions since they have a lot less Mitzwoth.Actually, we are supposed to WANT to commit sins, that is the truth. We get reward for fighting that off. I think about McDonalds all the time. But I know that it is not a great thing to think about lewdness and immodesty , regardless of the action.
2 examples- A Jew wants to eat non-kosher, has thoughts about it, but then stops him/her-self. That is not counted as a sin. BUT on the other hand if for example on a plane they order stake, assuming it to be non-kosher. Eat it thinking as such and then finding out that it is kosher they still committed a sin and are responsible for it.
On the other hand good thoughts are counted as Mitzwoth. For example someone wanting to do a Mitzwah is credited as such even when being prevented from actually doing it (for example Chaim wanting to be in Israel but being physically prevented from being their still gets the credit).
Example with non-Jew- if for example one wants to murder (one of 7 Noahide laws), plans it and then is not successful, they still committed a sin.
Actually, we are supposed to WANT to commit sins, that is the truth. We get reward for fighting that off. I think about McDonalds all the time. But I know that it is not a great thing to think about lewdness and immodesty , regardless of the action.
I know what you are trying to say and where you got that idea from, but the way you said it is wrong. You got it from Chazal saying that a person should not say I do not want to commit this sin because its ..... but because G-d forbid it. etc.Not all the time, it's an expression. I can't control the thought. Pink elephant.
That does not mean that you should think about McDonalds all the time. That is a waste of thinking and memory where you can be doing more productive things.
Pink elephant or "yo quiero taco bell?" :::D
Im amazed that this story has brought out Haredim bashing in some of the members here. This story has no impact on anyone but them, and it does not demean women {as some here have already alleged}. I stand with Mo on the idea that they are entitled to do whatever it takes to keep their level of avoiding the immodest thoughts. I can appreciate the struggle and fully understand that the eyes can lead a man astray. Does anyone here suggest otherwise? Most men will agree that the thoughts which are brought to mind when a woman who dresses to 'kill' walks by are less than wholesome. It is these thoughts which will lead him to sin at night. It is not the fault of the woman {unless she realizes that she is putting a stumbling block before a man} that he thinks this, it is his responsibility to avoid thinking it.
It should not be a tool to bash Haredim.
So just what is being violated by wearing such glasses to avoid seeing things which may be immodest? You are making assumptions that it is dangerous to health... Or do you know otherwise?
1. It's not "avoiding things which may be immodest." You haven't understood the issue. The purpose of the glasses is to AVOID SEEING ANY WOMEN AT ALL. No matter how modest they are. Because the purveyors of this "technology" (lol) are inventing their own code of tzniut. This is the same thing we saw when it was claimed that dati leumi 8 year old girls in RBS who wear long sleaves and skirts down to the ankles (all the requirements of actual halacha) are somehow "immodest." It's also the same thing I saw in a video where an askan tried to pressure Rav Eliashiv ZT"L into instituting a proclamation on modesty standards (and create official standards and perhaps new ones). He said he has no authority to do such a thing and he brushed this person off.
2. It is dangerous to obstruct one's vision. They are doing so ON PURPOSE. That is dangerous and does not require any further explanation. But if you want I can explain how it could lead to danger (already discussed in the thread but I see you haven't read it all or pretend not to). For example, if a person can't see in front of him, or can't see in the peripheral vision, he might get hit by a car G-d forbid. Or maybe he won't see a pole sticking out or he might trip. All very obvious things. I'm not making pilpulim here.
3. I'm pretty sure it erodes the vision over time to wear glasses with an incorrect prescription that produces blurry images. If I'm wrong, prove it. If you have nothing (like data, an eye doctor's opinion, etc) to even suggest I'm wrong, why do you insist I am? Ever consider that I might be right? I'm pretty sure I am, but not 100% certain about this eye issue. What I'm claiming seems to make sense.
4. And lastly by obsessing over this issue (and sex in general) such people are distorting the focus of Judaism and losing sight (no pun intended) of what we are here to do. While ghetto-minded fools who mistakenly think that seeing a woman's face or modestly dressed woman is ASSUR are obsessing over some eyeglasses and their trip on the local sidewalk, meanwhile the Jewish state is burning to the ground. And that's only one example. How about we focus on menshlikeit and mitzvot as Judaism is intended?
From Tractate Pesachim 113
R. Johanan said: Concerning three does the Holy one, blessed be He, make proclamation every
day:(As having earned His special approval). A bachelor who lives in a large town without sinning, a poor man who returns lost property to its owner, and a wealthy man who tithes his produce in secret (I.e., without ostentation). R. Safra was a bachelor living in a large town.
Now a tanna recited [R. Johanan's dictum] before Raba and R. Safra, [whereupon] R. Safra's face lit up.
Said Raba to him: it does not mean such as you, but such as R. Hanina and R. Oshaia, who were cobblers in Eretz Yisrael and dwelt in a street of harlots and made shoes for harlots and went in to them (to deliver the shoes): they [the harlots] looked at them, but they [these scholars] would not lift their eyes to look at them, and their [the harlots’] oath was ‘by the life of the holy Rabbis of Eretz Yisrael.
Apparently this is a picture of a harlot these days
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=I4708796664447685&pid=1.5
on second thought they might be right.
Pirkie Avot Chapter 1:
5. Yossei the son of Yochanan of Jerusalem would say: Let your home be wide open, and let the poor be members of your household. And do not engage in excessive conversation with a woman. This is said even regarding one's own wife--how much more so regarding the wife of another. Hence, the sages said: One who excessively converses with a woman causes evil to himself, neglects the study of Torah, and, in the end, inherits purgatory.
Chapter 2
8. He used to say: The more flesh the more worms; the more possessions the more anxiety; the more women the more witchcraft; the more maidservants the more lewdness, the more manservants the more theft. But the more Torah the more life, the more schooling the more wisdom; the more counsel the more understanding; the more righteousness the more peace. If a man has acquired a good name he has gained something which enriches himself; but if he has acquired words of the Torah he has attained afterlife.
lol, they wiped hillary out of that picture because they were worried for the butch lesbians that might be tempted.She's a handsome woman.
:::D I hate to admit it, but I agree with a lot of your speech. I still don't like you! :::D
Pfft I started it.What is Pfft?
" if you married someone and it was not arranged, you had to want them or something about them at one point. Hasidim have the luxury of not needing to see other girls, they get one chosen for them, I don't, so I size 'em up to see if they're even worth courting, and then of course personality determines whether I want them to stay around."
Being attracted to the lady is not a problem. If anything it is required or else you will most likely (if not definitely) have a horrible marriage and a horrible life together.
"Also, I think it peachy for girls to wear the skimpiest things they please, so long as its not my mom, sister or one day daughter, and I'm not doing something else, its about as distracting as noiseless fireworks, so obviously, not while I'm praying."
Why not? If you believe that these things are okay and good why not lead by example and allow/want these things to be done by these women you listed. Or is it that others sister, daughter, wife, etc. are fine to dress like that while not your own?
What is Pfft?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pfft ex. 2:::D :::D
LKZ,
Once again you have lost me... Yesterday you seemed to make a lot more sense... But today you are just expressing what appears to me to be an 'If it feels good, do it" attitude. You also imply that man-woman relationships are equal to animal relationships. Jewish belief is that a Jewish man and a Jewish woman have a special relationship, called marriage, which the animals cannot ever have. Our relationship is above the physical attraction while animals are mostly involved for specific reasons {pro-creating, pleasure, etc.}.
There is most certainly something wrong with a married man looking at women who are not his wife. This is the real root of all the prohibitions of men looking at other women, that it basically ruins the primary relationship with the wife. I know that this is practical wisdom. I have seen relationships fall apart due to jealousy of a wife for the women that a man works with or used to hang out with. I have seen relationships destroyed because a man was looking at too much internet smut.... I know that the Torah is teaching us these lessons in order to benefit us, not to restrict or constrain us.
My advice to you is to look into the commentaries on the Talmud {and there are volumes and volumes of such material} which concern the man-woman relationship. Modesty is intended to make the attraction of the man much greater for his wife...
Incorrect. You're not supposed to think about such things, let alone look at a woman for a split second.Isn't that impossible? Really?
Isn't that impossible? Really?
Forget the glasses.
That sounds like we should have women walking around in burqas. Maybe even the new 'one eyed burqa' so they can't wink at you.
That is said with great respect to the Jewish religion. I just don't understand that statement at all. How is that even possible in every day life? People have to have a little self control. Temptation exists all day. Every day. For everyone.
It's hard to correct for all of it.
Isn't that impossible? Really?
Forget the glasses.
That sounds like we should have women walking around in burqas. Maybe even the new 'one eyed burqa' so they can't wink at you.
That is said with great respect to the Jewish religion. I just don't understand that statement at all. How is that even possible in every day life? People have to have a little self control. Temptation exists all day. Every day. For everyone.
It's hard to correct for all of it.
In Judaism under Halacha (Jewish law) Burkas are not allowed. Not only not encouraged, but not allowed. A women is not allowed to cover her face because it takes away a persons identity.
If I want to stop any urges, I just look at a picture of this:
(http://www.therightperspective.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Helen_Thomas.jpg)
AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :fright:
I'm done with this topic. We'll all agree to disagree. I'm glad that Dr. Dan, at the very least, at least sees where I am coming from.
If any body feels i shudnt have posted this news, I am sorry for that.
ps: This thread went towards a way i did not intend to.
No this thread is not good. It's bad, but here for a good reason, though should have been dealt with quicker. I figured it out your welcome, I second thread closed. Or I just keep spamming it with drug-induced ideas.:::D
I love the passion and the curiousness the Cheridis show in their faith. always trying. If at all the next generation of israeli youth had even 1% of that passion.
just wondering if there is a related thread on the Hebrew forum. Would be interesting to know how the discussion there went about. anybody?
I love the passion and the curiousness the Cheridis show in their faith. always trying. If at all the next generation of israeli youth had even 1% of that passion.
I can say since I started following Torah, my thought process has changed. I listen to my inner voice more, for example, I work on a university campus a lot so I try to avoid areas with young woman just because I think that's what G-d would want me to do. Also I find some of the things my coworkers say about women to be very offensive!
Some may argue that we are not able to tame these desires and that we are always just the animal which deals with physical needs in various ways. But to take the entirely Jewish view that we are not just animals, and we are capable of controlling these desires, and that the Torah has told us that the way to do so is by not following after our eyes, and our imagination.... That there is the ability to avoid these thoughts, which do have a negative spiritual energy. And as a man gets more and more righteous, in his study of Torah, and his observance of the mitzvahs done with joy. There will always be the yetzer hara which will attempt to tempt the man to go off his righteous path.
It just means people have different beliefs. Even if all of JTF disagrees with each other about this particular topic, we still agree on the important things.True.
I can say since I started following Torah, my thought process has changed. I listen to my inner voice more, for example, I work on a university campus a lot so I try to avoid areas with young woman just because I think that's what G-d would want me to do. Also I find some of the things my coworkers say about women to be very offensive!
See that's the thing with intentions again. While you can pitch loving G-d as the intention of not seeing women, I don't think G-d asked you to do that nor tells people to avoid women. Avoid doing bad. Go in front of these women. Observe your mind. If something depraved shows up, figure out what it is. Now you're level 3.
A. The Definition of Yichud
Yichud is defined as the seclusion of a man with a woman.[23] Such seclusion is prohibited even for a short while.[24]
B. The Reason for the Prohibition of Yichud
The seclusion of a man and a woman is the first step towards a forbidden relationship; hence, the Torah forbids Yichud. However, let it be made absolutely clear that if a man and a woman are in a Yichud situation, even though nothing improper takes place, they are still in violation of the prohibition of Yichud.[25]
Even if a person is "absolutely sure" of him/herself, believing that "nothing will happen," there still exists a serious prohibition of Yichud. Furthermore, there is a rule: "There is no guarantee when it comes to Arayos." When a person places himself in a Yichud situation, the Yetzer Hara is extremely powerful, and no person can be absolutely sure that under such conditions he or she will withstand temptation.
C. Where is Yichud Prohibited?
Yichud is not only prohibited in a closed room or house, but Yichud also applies in any secluded area such as a quiet country spot, beach, park or forest. As long as the man and woman cannot be seen by other people and they are not afraid of intrusion, then Yichud applies.[26]
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Isn't that impossible? Really?
Forget the glasses.
That sounds like we should have women walking around in burqas. Maybe even the new 'one eyed burqa' so they can't wink at you.
That is said with great respect to the Jewish religion. I just don't understand that statement at all. How is that even possible in every day life? People have to have a little self control. Temptation exists all day. Every day. For everyone.
It's hard to correct for all of it.
Haven't you heard of "frumkas"?
http://blogs.jta.org/telegraph/article/2008/02/08/999793/the-frumka-orthodox-women-find-religion
(http://blogs.jta.org/images/archive/burqas_013108.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3ecZW4ONUZg/T17JL-GJ13I/AAAAAAAABxo/lA_ERu_rQnQ/s1600/frumka.jpg)
Extreme modesty seems to be the trend.
Those pics were taken on a cold winter day in Israel. These might not be anything more than dressing warmly.
OK so it's not a sin to do that, but it can tempt you, so because spirits apparently are not good and bad, but test and directly help you, then just get so good at beating this test that you don't have to think twice about it. If the owner of a company is a woman that wants to sell you her company for a low price, would you not meet her over loosing the sale?
Those pics were taken on a cold winter day in Israel. These might not be anything more than dressing warmly.
This brings me to a story which I may have told before...
I drive a fast car, a Mustang GT, and from time to time I get pulled over for speeding {or appearing to speed}. One day while driving in to work I came up upon a police cruiser who was driving a little too slow for my tastes. I followed behind it for a few miles and then changed lanes and pulled along side it and looked at the officer, it was a blonde woman... I kept driving along side her until another car came barreling past both of us and the woman appeared to not care too much, so I started to pass her by accelerating....
Just as I got past her she turned on her lights and started to pull me over. If I remember correctly this was during the spring just before the Holiday of Passover. Once she came up to my window and asked if I knew how fast I was going I simply said one word to her, this was "Mercy Please". I did not attempt to deny or even address the issue of whether I was speeding. She said that the car which passed us was actually an unmarked police car... But what occurred next was a miniature miracle {which has happened to me on other occasions} when the woman officer said she would not write me a ticket.
Then the weirdest thing happened. This police woman said she wanted to shake my hand. She saw I was an orthodox Jew, I was wearing my kippah and tzit-tzits.... Of course I shook her hand... But I knew in my heart she was doing this to make me break my custom. I still thank Hashem that she did not give me the ticket...
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What is the rationale for the Jewish prohibition on men and women touching, let alone shaking hands?
The prohibition of touching (in Hebrew negiah) goes back to the Book of Leviticus (18:6 and 18:19) and was developed further in the Talmud. A person who observes this prohibition is often called a shomer negiаh. It applied not only to close contact such as hugging and kissing, but also to shaking hands or patting on the back. The practice is generally followed by traditionally observant Jews, both men and women, including Hassidic Jews, and those who are referred to as Haredim. It is also observed within the Modern Orthodox community depending on how traditional the person is.
The Question is: Why?
To remove any myths, it can be said emphatically that it has nothing to do with impurity, or with the social or religious status of people who encounter other people.
The reason is a rather complex, even Freudian rationale. It is felt that touching a person of the opposite gender is essentially a sexual act, or at least the precursor of a sexual act. While it is true that most handshakes between men and women do not lead to sexual relations and are not even contemplated, sexual relations always begin with touching. It is also true that a handshake does communicate feelings albeit on a superficial level.
It has been recognized however, that there are many instances in which men and women can and perhaps even should, touch each other. This would apply to saving a person who is facing a life-threatening danger. Members of the health professions may obviously touch members of the opposite gender in the practice of their discipline, as may hairdressers or physical therapists as a necessary component in the practice of theirs.
The issue that seems to have caused the most discussion is whether there is an exception to the prohibition in a business situation. Some commentators take the position that where shaking hands is in a business context, and is clearly a non-affectionate contact, it is permissible under Jewish law (Наlасhаh). The Office of Career Services at Yeshiva University, which is considered Modern Orthodox, takes this position as part of the interview process for its students applying for jobs after graduation. Haredim and Hassidic commentators do not agree.
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Shaking Hands
Last week I had a business meeting with an Orthodox Jewish woman and she politely declined to shake my hand. What is the reason for this?
The Aish Rabbi Replies:
Maimonides cites Deuteronomy 22:13 as a scriptural prohibition against any pleasurable contact between a man and woman (other than those who are married or close relatives). This includes hugging and kissing.
Shaking hands is a bit of gray area since different situations come up and it is not always considered "pleasurable, physical contact." But suffice to say there can be sexual pleasure involved; it’s just that we are often numbed to it due to the onslaught of sexual images in today's media. We have unfortunately lost the nuance of a touch or a peck on the cheek. But the energy is there; I recall reading of a woman who, after shaking hands with a U.S. President, called it "the most satisfying full-body experience I have ever had."
As a result, the custom among most Orthodox Jews is not to shake hands with the opposite gender.
In a case where one person extends their hand, some rabbis are lenient to allow for shaking hands, in order to prevent embarrassing the other.
In general, it is best to avoid this situation in the first place. An Orthodox person who is greeted by an extended hand could just smile broadly and pretend not to notice. At a gathering where this situation is common, one could anticipate and arrange to have both hands full.
A frum (Observant) Jewish man should not make physical contact with a woman who is not his wife...
As I understand it, that is because this is a sexual act. Is shaking hands a sexual act for two men or women?
I can't just do something. I need reasons to get out of bed in the morning, and definitely to change the way I do everything once that happens. I'm gonna hammer what you say until I'm sure its one of those unbreakable things I want, or until there's pieces all over the floor.
I am not suggesting you change your ways... I am just saying this is what certain observant Jews do in order to keep 'Shomer Negiah'...
Then allow me to suggest that I think I need to. Ever since I learned about Judaism, even meat and cheese together leaves me sick for a day. I'm already like 20% kosher, I'm figuring out how to pull off the whole sabbath thing, and started Friday night meals with my family to test it.Yes. Members of the same sex can shake hands.
So please, is shaking hands sexual, and does it only apply when the shake occurs between opposing sexes?
Then allow me to suggest that I think I need to. Ever since I learned about Judaism, even meat and cheese together leaves me sick for a day. I'm already like 20% kosher, I'm figuring out how to pull off the whole sabbath thing, and started Friday night meals with my family to test it.You know what my favourite kosher meat is, when I cut the heart out of a deer and eat it!
So please, is shaking hands sexual, and does it only apply when the shake occurs between opposing sexes?
You know what my favourite kosher meat is, when I cut the heart out of a deer and eat it!:thumbsdown: ::) :yuck: :teach:
You know what my favourite kosher meat is, when I cut the heart out of a deer and eat it!