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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dan Ben Noah on December 06, 2012, 06:59:40 PM

Title: Shalom
Post by: Dan Ben Noah on December 06, 2012, 06:59:40 PM: Shalom
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: בַּחַמַל on December 06, 2012, 07:05:44 PM: Let women do heavy labour or technical work that requires a high degree of understanding of abstract concepts, and then we'll talk about "gender equality". Shtuyot bemitz agvaniyot.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: IsraelForever on December 06, 2012, 07:13:39 PM: This same man just gave his wife his private parts.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: Sveta on December 06, 2012, 10:58:47 PM: He's not the first one.

Some men in the US have opted to either changing their last name to combine the woman's name along with his or to take their wife's last name.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-03-20-names-marriage_N.htm (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-03-20-names-marriage_N.htm)

Like the singer Jack White..."White" was his ex-wife's name. He felt he could get ahead in life better with a catchy last name. He's a great guitarist (voted top 10)- otherwise "Jack Gillis" probably would not be as famous as "Jack White"

Actor Lorenzo Lamas took his wife's name

When Prince Phillip married Queen Elizabeth (back then princess)- the royal house was not changed to "Mountbatten" like his last name. It was kept as "Windsor" like hers. Later she decreed that non-royal descendants of her line would be "Windsor-Mountbatten".

What's so emasculating about a man wanting to take his wife's last name. If that's what they want, they're not harming the world. It's their own personal thing.
I am divided on either not taking my husband's last name or using a hyphen. Depends on how it sounds.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: בַּחַמַל on December 06, 2012, 11:56:39 PM: When a women refuses to take her husband's last name, she is rejecting the Patriarchial structure of the family and instituting an ersatz Matriarchy.

Everywhere blacks live, whether in Jamaica, NY or Jamaica Island, the structure of the family is Matriarchial. Any house you walk into, there are only small children, older girls, and the mother. Young males and the husband must leave the home. This structure of family comes from the jungle. You can see it with many animals, like chimpanzees or elephants, where the males are banished from the unit at a certain age.

This idea emanates from Feminism and is incompatible with Judaism. There's no way to sugar-coat this. If you want to adopt feminism as your way of living, then you are anathema to the concept of a Jewish Nation and a Jewish State. One could even call this behavior Jezebellian.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: Sveta on December 07, 2012, 12:49:16 AM: Well I'm not a feminist who is trying to read the Torah at the Kotel in Tefillin like those female morons.

I like part of my last name. Maybe hyphenate it. And I am always "Ms", never will be Mrs or Miss. If my fiance loves me, he will be ok with me being "Ms".

That's just my thing. Regardless of whatever anyone says.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: בַּחַמַל on December 07, 2012, 01:07:17 AM: I prefer those feminists... Those feminists are open about their feelings.

You are the sort of feminist who dresses up tznius and with a tichel and shaitel but futhers its agenda within the Patriarchy itself, slowly eroding it from within. You should know that Torah Judaism demands Patriarchy, and if you reject it, you're rejecting the whole Torah.

There are already many so-called "religious" feminist organizations in America which do this kind of thing. Oorah comes to mind, advocating on behalf of every supposedly "oppressed" Religious Jewess who wants to divorce her husband, persistently shaming him into giving her a get with varying methods of harrassment. Such a get is completely pasul b'din and there's no doubt that Oorah has caused many many mamzerim to be born in the Religious Jewish World.

Many people are completely wrong in their ideas of Jewish divorce... Just because the Rambam said "Makin Oso" (i.e. we beat him), every Jewish feminist now thinks that if her husband doesn't buy her fancy clothing or expensive jewlery, she can go to Oorah and demand that they "beat" him, albeit by modern methods... But what people don't know is that:

a) This ruling in the Rambam is based on a Rashi that says "Makin Oto".
b) Beis Din only has the power to beat the man in a case of divorce after he doesn't comply with their ruling (i.e. Kofin Oto)
c) The idea of Kofin Oto - that Beis Din has the power to oblige an individual in the case of divorce is highly conditional. The conditions for them to force him to give a get (Which is the step before "beating" him if he doesn't comply) are like for example if he is on his deathbed and his flesh is falling off his body...
d) We don't hold like the Rambam in the case of divorce (And in many other things). Most Acharonim are cholek on the Rambam, and hold that if Beis Din are "Makin Oto" after he doesn't oblige their ruling, any Get given from such a beating is invalid.

In short, whatever you learned from Aish Hatorah books and Manis Friedman seminars regarding women and Judaism you can forget. This is nonsense designed to attract Ba'alot Teshuva. Yes, women have some very important roles in Judaism, but only in a subservient position to the Patriarch of the family - their husband, who is in turn subservient to the Ultimate Patriarch, G-D.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: Sveta on December 07, 2012, 01:56:46 AM: So now I am involved with Aish Hatorah? Were you the same person who previously accused me of being Litvish on another post? How did I go from Litvish to an Aish Hatorah feminist?

I actually have never read a feminist book in my life. From my understanding, a woman has a very important role. We are fortunate because we are more spiritual. I love being a woman, I would never want to be a man. I thank G-d that He made me as I am. A woman.
Best part of all, I get to raise family, but I also get to be a career woman. My fiance actually wants me to work, even though he says supporting me will be his responsibility. The man makes all the decisions but the woman decides the aspects of the home. My husband can do the man's thing and I'll bake the challah. And so on. One thing is that my fiance did say that he does NOT want me to ever wear a shaitel, only a tichel. And I'm ok with it. I would prefer to wear a shaitel but what can I do about it. If it bothers him, I won't do it. He mentioned that I can request for him to trim his beard a little but but I said I am happy if he keeps it whatever way he wants. The point is, I'm not a "feminist".

Apart from that, I don't know how to topic of divorce came up but I certainly do not ever want to get divorced.
I have not heard of the feminist organizations that you mention, which facilitate a get. But I have heard of batei din and Orthodox Rabbis who work hard not to let a woman be agunah.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: בַּחַמַל on December 07, 2012, 02:58:43 AM: You don't have to be a 'feminist' per se...

You grew up with Oprah, Dr Phil, and all the other negative Western female influences that makes American girls unappealing.

Let's say G-D forbid that only you are working at a job but your husband is at home with the kids... How will you feel then? Will you still find your husband as appealing to you then as on the day he married you? Keep this in mind as the prospect of unemployment is very real these days and there are many families where the male is unemployed.

The woman does NOT decide the aspects of the home. Marriage is the exchange of a man's excess labor for a woman's ability to bear children. The man provides the woman with shelter and food, in turn, the woman provides the man with the products of her womb. Any child that comes out of the womb belongs to the man. This is the dynamic of marriage, anything else is the Matriarchial family or the jungle family.

Any other 'spiritual' explanations about Zivug or Beshert are irelevant. They're true, but they don't change the parameters of the Biblical institutions of marriage.

But ultimately, my question to you is this:

Every Western power in the world gives women the ability to either maintain or destroy their marriage. With such absolute power, explain to me how you personally will never use this against your husband to gain the upper hand in the marriage. What's stopping you from posessing the children via use of this government issued power, eventhough the children are his by virtue of the contract of marriage?

And don't tell me this doesn't happen in religious families. I have seen this happen in very religious Lubavitch families, where the woman used the government to take the children, and brainwashed them to despise their father to their own detriment, which they later discovered when they were much older and it was too late.

Nothing personal, but I would NEVER marry a woman like your... I'm sure you are a very nice lady, and yes, I was wrong to categorize you as Litvish in the other thread, but It's not your fault that you were raised with Western ideals. The woman I would marry would have to be an extremely 'primitive' woman from a closed community like Me'ah She'arim, who has never watched television or been influenced by Western culture otherwise, and I would never take her out of that environment. I'm not a chauvinist, but I have seen good Israeli girls whos minds have been poisoned by typical JAPs after having lived in North America for many years. It's inevitable, and preventing it is futile. That's the nature of women, to listen to and envy their friends. "What, you're husband makes you cook three times a day, why can't he pay for a live in helper!?", "What, your husband doesn't buy you pretty jewelery like mine!?", "What, you keep Chalav Yisrael, no one does that, only Yoelim do that".

I wish you the best, I love big, Jewish families, but I do not like seeing typical American Jewish males with grey hair and premature aging, defeated men who cannot impart spiritual wisdom to their offspring nor lift their heads with pride because their wife gives them no peace. This is the fate of Diaspora Jewery. The future of the true Jewish family rests with the Charedim in Israel.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: Zelhar on December 07, 2012, 03:31:09 AM: This is not a new thing. It happened in the past too particularly in situations where a prominent family has only female heirs.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: Sveta on December 07, 2012, 03:48:15 AM: I actually never watched Oprah or Dr. Phil. I don't like them, they're too much drama. All these people and their guests are always whining about how terrible life is. But everything comes from Hashem and I believe in listening to the messages He sends us through times of tribulation. Those shows, like Oprah etc offer a secular temporary and fake "cures" to problems that can only be resolved through Hashem. Through emunah.
So I don't listen to those shows. However, I don't believe that what you meant was not exclusive to just Oprah and Dr. Phil, it includes all those type of shows. And yes I watch secular shows. But some of those shows have lost some appeal now, B"H.
The only time I watched Oprah was online in youtube when she did her special on Jewish women.

The woman controlling the aspects of the home is what I heard from a rabbi before. Hmm, maybe I misunderstood him? It's from this video:
http://www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/blessed-marriage

I mean, women have important tasks to complete. Lighting the Shabbat candles:
Quote
Generally speaking it is the presence and contribution of a woman that transforms a house into a home; it is therefore her privilege to transform it into a Jewish home - filling it with the light of Judaism through the lighting of Shabbat candles

And the laws on niddah- which are extremely important. And the merit she brings to her husband and children by covering her hair. There are other things besides these examples. We obviously have some VERY important roles here. We don't do any of those things because our husbands tell us to or because it is the husband's will as the one who controls every aspect of the home. No, it's because it is what Hashem told us to do.

Let's see, what would I do if I work and my husband is unemployed... I would be ok with it because I would trust that he is doing his best. And he would have more time to study Torah, Talmud etc.. Maybe Hashem would send him that situation to allow him the opportunity to study more. I would be supportive of him and with my support and asking Hashem, I am sure He would allow my husband to get a job soon. In no way would I feel that he is less or find him less appealing. If I did start feeling in a negative way towards him, it would show a serious problem within my character, arrogance, and possibily the urge to complain about him with other women or family which would be a very serious mistake to make. So I would have to be very careful to not hold any negative feelings against him because of his unemployment.
And I am sure that he would feel bad enough already, why would I want to add to his problems. I would try to make him feel better so that he would have the energy and positive outlook to be able to find a good job.

While I live in a western country, I actually do not feel that I have the power to destroy my marriage or family. I could not live with myself knowing that I destroyed my marriage or family. What a transgression it would be. The only marriage documents I would care about is the ketuba not some secular government agency.
I'm sure it happens in religious families as in secular ones. But I am not interested in using any government powers like that. (The only exception is if the husband was violently beating his wife and children and for their own safety they had to leave as a matter of life and death.
If he became a heretic and decided he wants to be a xstian, moslim or buddhist etc.. I would have to leave him.

Just because I was raised in a secular environment doesn't mean I would be one of those wild women who refuses to cook. My fiance says he wants to cook me breakfast as a surprise sometimes, which is sweet of him. But I will be certain to take care of meals 3 times a day (just like my mom did with us) and laundry and the home etc... I'm not going to be one of those lazy wives who just get canned food, takeout or frozen meals. That's just terrible. And I have never been a promiscuous woman either. Not ever, even in this crazy secular environment.
Most importantly, what is important is that I want for my husband to have time to study. He studies a lot now and watches a lot of lectures, which I am so happy that he does that. I know that when we have kids, I will have a knowledgeable husband who will be a wise father to them. I like a man who I know does not only live for himself but for Hashem and for others. To me, this is more of a mission. Not a journey of self-pleasure. Marriage and having kids is not about having fun and 0 responsibilities. It's a serious job. I actually feel very humbled by it.

I forgot what point I was making. Anyways, whatever makes you happy. A Me'ah She'arim girl would seem good for you and it would bring you a good marriage. My fiance is not FFB, he has become very religious in the past years and in his case, a Me'ah She'arim girl would probably not be good for him. And so on. Things work out :)

Anyways I don't understand this quote: "Any child that comes out of the womb belongs to the man". What if a Jewish man makes a mistake and has a child with a gentile woman, does this apply? Just out of curiosity.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: japhet on December 07, 2012, 10:25:17 AM: Hi all!

Situation goes crazy in France (not only, i know). In another topic (http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,65570.msg572393.html#msg572393), i told that:

Quote
...there is a debate here in France about establishing marriage for homosexuals. A big part of population don't want that! Some catholics have made peaceful streets manifestations to say no, they have been agressed by crazy so called feminists, which even hurted young children. And guess who's called extremist? The catholics...

Here a link:

http://francejeunessecivitas.hautetfort.com/archive/2012/11/19/quand-les-militantes-de-femen-agressent-des-enfants.html

That's the crazy situation today here. And some don't understand that sodome and ghomore were destroyed for less crimes than what we can find in our modern world...
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 07, 2012, 01:49:56 PM: I hate feminism as much as, if not more than, anybody, but I don't see how the issue of which spouse takes whose name is a moral issue.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 07, 2012, 02:31:18 PM: Quote from: Dan Ben Noah on December 07, 2012, 02:12:21 PM
Flip yeah it's immoral, it's rebellion against the family. People nowadays may not see it as that due to commie infiltration, but that's what it is.
I'm not saying that the sentiment of this French law is moral in any way but what a married couple does is their own business and theirs alone. Maybe the guy doesn't like his name. Who knows what their reasons are?
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: Lisa on December 07, 2012, 03:00:50 PM: If I ever get married, I would take my husband's last name so quickly it would make all your heads spin.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 07, 2012, 04:14:44 PM: Quote from: LKZ on December 07, 2012, 12:05:35 AM
Spurred with confidence by Western liberals taking their spouses last names, Ackmed decided to take the last name of his lover. He is now Ackmed Baa.
:::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: בַּחַמַל on December 08, 2012, 07:33:31 PM: Quote
Anyways I don't understand this quote: "Any child that comes out of the womb belongs to the man". What if a Jewish man makes a mistake and has a child with a gentile woman, does this apply? Just out of curiosity.
Yes, of course... There's no difficulty in law there... The difficulty comes when the opposite is true R"L. It's a good question you would have to ask a Rav, but if I were asked to give a ruling in Halacha per se, I would declare the child the property of the goy father, but I would do everything in my power to convince the goy father to allow his son to be raised a Jew.

In any case, since you seem to like Lubavitch, I'll post here a translation I did of a Sicha of the Rebbe a while back, for a response in an email corrspondence with a yente from n'Shei Chabad (Which is also composed of good for nothing feminists):

Sicha 6 Tishre Tof Shin Mem Hey 5745

The darkness of our exile has caused one to turn darkness into light and light into darkness, so much so that confusion has arisen - a confusion that really runs contrary to simple logic and truth - that according to Torah there exists an inequality between men and women, and it resulted in the establishment of a movement to "liberate" women! They promote ideas and behaviors that run contrary to Torah, erroneously basing themselves on the principles of loving your fellow Jew and equality, based on the fact that every person was created in the image of G-D.

Therefore, they make the claim that women should not be less respected than men. What did this result in? The source of the greatest lack of self-worth is when one regards oneself as inferior to another person, and tries to attain completeness through imitation and emulation, going to great lengths to imitate and liken himself to someone else. Torah, however, foresaw this, and thereby stated: "A man shall not wear a woman's clothing" and "A man's garment shall not be on a woman", being that every individual has his own important role, and important mission to accomplish in this world, particularly in matters relevant to Torah. G-D defined the reality, stating that completeness, and the greatest achievements attained by men would not come about through wearing women's clothing. Similarly, a woman's fulfillment is attained through behaving like a woman, as a woman should behave, not by observing men's behavior and acting upon their observations. The greatest unhappiness and lack of personal self-worth is when one chases after and fights for the right to be allowed to imitate others.

This is a situation in which light is turned into darkness and darkness to light. Torah gave women the greatest mission possible - the greatest mission within the holy Jewish nation as it pertains to the Torah that Moses commanded us - that from the generation who received the Torah, there should follow a second and third generation that walks in its ways. Even more so, how can there be another generation after the one taht stood at Mount Sinai? The women are needed to accomplish this! Not only are they needed, but they were given this holy mission to ensure continuity from that generation, and therefore, the mitzvah to "Be fruitful and multiply". This depends primarily on the women, for the husband's partnership is only at the begining. Then there are nine months of pregnancy, which has its own set of pains, and then birth, with it's own set of pains. through pregnancy and birth, a woman fulfills her primary mission, primary not only in regards to herself, but to the world's entire existence as well, particularly the existence of the Jewish nation, upon which the ecistence of the Torah itself depends. For Torah is not in heaven; it was given in this physical world, and one of its first commandments is to "teach youe children."

It is understood by the most simple of people, non-Jews as well, that women are the ones who have the greatest and holiest mission in which they are involved for in the nine months of pregnancy, and despite the hardships associated with it, they willingly accept, and joyfully fulfill G-D's command. They know the truth, that through this, they'll achieve there completeness, and that no one, however great, can replace them. That's why G-d, with His great power, Wisdom and Will, entrusted only women with this task. So when a woman reverses her role, she rationalizes that she has to earn money and make a name for herself, yet her true and primary purpose - for our people and the entire world - she postpones for when she'll have free time, and only after achieving these less important things, and only if she has the strength and time, and G-D's desire to bless her with children - only then will she start thinking and planning about when and how many children to have, and how she'll give birth to them. And for what does she trade in her deepest and most essential mission? She exchanges them for things that, in comparison, have no value, not only from the perspective of the G-Dly soul and the intellectual soul, but even from the perspective of the intellect of the animal soul, and even the intellect of the simplest person! King Solomon was the wisest of all men and he concluded his Book Of Proverbs with the topic of "Who can find a woman of valor." He also mentions that a 'Woman of valor' can be involved in business. As it states: "She makes linen and sells them". However, he also stipulates how to do it, stating that, "All the glory of the princess is within" - that it should be done modestly. When, however, can she do it? Only when we see that she is praised by her children for fulfilling her most essential mission.

Nevertheless, some say that women will gain equal status, if they do what men do. Since a man has a shop - a business - she too will be a complete person by becoming a successful businesswoman. Therefore, she has to put all her affairs on hold until she accomplishes this, and afterwards, she'll occupy herself with her most essential mission. The Talmus, however, foresaw this and stated that a woman achieves even more merit than men by bringing their children to study Torah, and awaiting their husband's return from the study hall. This was customary by many great sages. Their wives worked to support the family, enabling not only their children to learn, but also their husbands. However, this is only possible once she has already had children. She agrees to provide for her husband in such a way that she does not compromise her modesty. This way is according to the true Torah, the Torah of life, which guides one's life.
Title: Re: French man takes his wife's last name
Post by: Rubystars on December 09, 2012, 05:32:00 AM: Quote from: Brennanfan on December 07, 2012, 01:49:56 PM
I hate feminism as much as, if not more than, anybody, but I don't see how the issue of which spouse takes whose name is a moral issue.

It's symbolic of the wife accepting the husband as the head of the family. That's why feminists hate it so much.