JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: edu on January 28, 2013, 08:32:27 PM
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Many Jews outside of Israel (and to be honest even inside the country) lack knowledge of basic Jewish concepts having been raised away from major Jewish centers of learning, or because the cost made it too expensive for some of them to learn.
This results in many Jews being lost to assimilation or at the least becoming leftist anti-zionists.
What do you think of the suggestion that as an alternative to army service, Charedi Jews can continue learning, but as a contribution to the zionist state, they would both learn and teach for free the Jews in the Diaspora in the Diaspora for a 2 or 3 year period?
This would sort of be an expansion of the idea of the Chabad house, but run by the Israeli government, giving access to Jewish education and culture throughout the world to keep up Jewish identity.
I welcome your feedback.
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I think it is a great idea... Something certainly needs to be done to get the Jewish education passed on to the next generation of Israelis. It is so sad that so many Jews have no idea what it means to be a Jew (other than cultural foods, etc.)...
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I think it won't work. First I think they should not do it for free since that means they will not be earning a living and will be living at the expense of the taxpayer. Second I don't think they would actually agree to it, on both sides. Third, I think it's better for these charedim to serve in the military while studying at the same time. And these Haredim are going to have to be forced to join the workforce because in fifty years time they will make up 30% of the Israeli population
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I think it is a good idea! You should not serve, if your heart is not in it, you then become a weak link and a hazard to yourself and others!
The synagogues should sponsor(pay) these young Torah scholars to fullfill "their" mission.
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Leaving Israel is not the solution.
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Leaving Israel is not the solution.
For a short time to spread Torah?
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I've said this before, and I'll say it again.
If going to battle was good enough for Joshua and for King David, why not for these Haredis? Or in the meantime, can't they become resident IDF rabbis and/or teachers to the troops?
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I've said this before, and I'll say it again.
If going to battle was good enough for Joshua and for King David, why not for these Haredis? Or in the meantime, can't they become resident IDF rabbis and/or teachers to the troops?
Because the Joshuaic/Davidic IDF was not a kapo Nazi SS force...
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For a short time to spread Torah?
The idea is to get Jews into Israel. The last thing we need is Jews to leave. It sounds nice and all, but definitely a bad thing.
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Because the Joshuaic/Davidic IDF was not a kapo Nazi SS force...
:::D
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I've said this before, and I'll say it again.
If going to battle was good enough for Joshua and for King David, why not for these Haredis? Or in the meantime, can't they become resident IDF rabbis and/or teachers to the troops?
We cannot comprehend this lifestyle that charedim live. What seems logical to us is illogical to them and vice versa. Whole different ball game.
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:::D
I'm glad you liked it but it wasn't a joke! :laugh:
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I'm glad you liked it but it wasn't a joke! :laugh:
I know ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The present IDF functions as the stormtroopers of the NWO for ethnically cleansing Jews out of large portions of the land of Israel. That's exactly what the Waffen-SS' purpose was.
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Lisa,
Joshua and King David were prophets of Hashem. Please tell me you realize that Bibi Netanyahu and his left-wing coalition are nowhere near the great men that Joshua and David Melech Yisrael were...
If the nation were led by the righteous redeemer, the Moshiach/Annointed One of Israel, I am sure that the Charedim would gladly join in the battle against Amalek and all the other nations which Hashem commands us to fight. But for the time being, most of these people do not believe that the secular Israeli leadership has an iota of Jewish soul(Torah And Mitzvot) in it...
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I see it both ways. If they just reject the military period (and some of them do), then Lisa is absolutely right. If they are consciously refusing to serve in the IDF because of how godless and satanic it has gotten under Lewinsky and his predecessors (as some of them do), they are absolutely right.
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Sometimes people forget that the Charedim ARE soldiers. They may not be fighting a physical battle like the IDF soldiers. Instead they are fighting a spiritual battle. Being religiously observant, keeping the Mitzvot- many of the mizvot that some of the IDF soldiers never keep. There are a lot of secular Jews who revile the Charedim for not serving like they had to. But these secular Jews are driving in Shabbat, interdating, having a terrible immodest and decadent life while the Charedim are bringing many more children into Israel that the secular Jews are not. So the secular Jews can have no children, one or two kids. While the Arabs are popping out kids everywhere. But the Charedim are bringing many children into this world, much needed religious Jewish children to combat the high Arab birth rate and the poor secular birth rate.
Obviously many religious Jews serve in the IDF so I am not talking about them, I am talking about the secular majority that ridicules well behaved young men who spend all day studying in the Yeshivah. Something that is so important and URGENT because it is those religious Jews, in their merit of Torah study that are keeping the good things that Israel gets. While the secular Jews are bringing terrible things against Israel. People do not see it however.
Every time Israel gets into extreme immoral decadence or takes an anti-Torah stance, something terrible happens. A flotilla comes in to provoke the IDF and we become public enemies #1. Massive marches from arab countries to all push down the barriers and enter Israel. UN destruction, world demands, Iranian threats. Verbal attacks, libel. It's not the nations that are doing it, no! It's Hashem speaking to us through the nations. He is telling the Israelis: "WAKE UP! You rebuild Israel and take away My Torah that I gave you and turn it into a secular state"? It is written that Jews should live in the land BUT to do so must uphold the Torah in order to live in Israel. But many of Israelis do NOT do that. That angers Hashem but the religious Haredim DO keep it and their keeping the Torah benefits the entire country!
The Shabbat breaking of the secular population (yes many of the soldiers and former soldiers) bring down rockets into Israel...but the Torah study of the religious Jews makes those rockets fall on nothing and block them for killing anyone. That is why where there are attacks against Israel, Israel and the IDF suffer very few casualties (B'H) compared to the cursed fakestinians who end up with many more dead. And this is because of the merit of the Charedim. Is that not obvious?
So no, I don't agree with forcing those who are so obviously Chassidic to serve. Let that be an option to some or make them do National Service when they are not in the Yeshivah so they can give back to the community. But to me, their studies in the Yeshivah is extremely important! AS for Charedi girls, no they should not join the IDF- where they would have to wear pants as part of the uniform. So let them do National Service as well.
I would also like to ask.... please do not answer but how many people here (or in Israel) who are demanding that the Charedim serve in the IDF are Shomer Mitzvot? I don't want to know the answer but I am just stating the point....
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Sometimes people forget that the Charedim ARE soldiers. They may not be fighting a physical battle like the IDF soldiers. Instead they are fighting a spiritual battle. Being religiously observant, keeping the Mitzvot- many of the mizvot that some of the IDF soldiers never keep. There are a lot of secular Jews who revile the Charedim for not serving like they had to. But these secular Jews are driving in Shabbat, interdating, having a terrible immodest and decadent life while the Charedim are bringing many more children into Israel that the secular Jews are not. So the secular Jews can have no children, one or two kids. While the Arabs are popping out kids everywhere. But the Charedim are bringing many children into this world, much needed religious Jewish children to combat the high Arab birth rate and the poor secular birth rate.
Obviously many religious Jews serve in the IDF so I am not talking about them, I am talking about the secular majority that ridicules well behaved young men who spend all day studying in the Yeshivah. Something that is so important and URGENT because it is those religious Jews, in their merit of Torah study that are keeping the good things that Israel gets. While the secular Jews are bringing terrible things against Israel. People do not see it however. Every time Israel gets into extreme immoral decadence, something terrible happens. A flotilla comes in to provoke the IDF and we become public enemies #1. Massive marches from arab countries to all push down the barriers and enter Israel. UN destruction, world demands, Iranian threats. Verbal attacks, libel. It's not the nations doing it, it's Hashem telling the Israelis: "WAKE UP! You rebuild Israel and take away the Torah I gave you and turn it into a secular state"? It is written that Jews should live in the land and should uphold the Torah in order to live there. But many of Israelis do NOT do that. That angers Hashem but the religious Haredim DO keep it and their keeping the Torah benefits the entire country!
The Shabbat breaking of the secular population (yes many of the soldiers and former soldiers) bring down rockets into Israel...but the Torah study of the religious Jews makes those rockets fall on nothing and block them for killing anyone. That is why where there are attacks against Israel, B'H Israel and the soldiers suffer very few casualties compared to the cursed fakestinians. Because of the merit of the Charedim. Is that not obvious?
So no, I don't agree with forcing those who are so obviously Chassidic to serve. Let that be an option to some or make them do National Service when they are not in the Yeshivah so they can give back to the community. But to me, their studies in the Yeshivah is extremely important! AS for Charedi girls, no they should not join the IDF- where they would have to wear pants as part of the uniform. So let them do National Service as well.
I would also like to ask.... please do not answer but how many people here who are demanding that the Charedim serve in the IDF are Shomer Mitzvot? I don;t want to know the answer but I am just stating the point....
But some of these Charedim are anti-Zionists that blindly do whatever their party tells them, like Shas or Agudah.
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There are different sects in the Charedi world each having their own views when it comes to politics. I saw an interesting documentary about it recently.
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All religious Jews pray for the return of Zion.... But some in the Charadie world do not believe that the return to Zion can be lead by secular 'Jews' who do not keep the Torah. I understand this approach but do not agree with it. But we all know how evil the secular Israeli government has been, and all the danger it puts Jewish lives in...
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They should either do civil service or serve in the military. If they can't serve in the IDF due to real or imaginary kosher problems, there would be no problem fitting them to a civil service where they will be helping their own community.
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There are different sects in the Charedi world each having their own views when it comes to politics. I saw an interesting documentary about it recently.
I know, that's why I said "some". Some of them have legit reasoning and others don't.
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They should either do civil service or serve in the military. If they can't serve in the IDF due to real or imaginary kosher problems, there would be no problem fitting them to a civil service where they will be helping their own community.
I agree... People that spend the entire day doing religious observance should be official clergy that get room and board from whatever religious organization the become affiliated with... Where do people like this now get their money from? If they are a bit tired one day do they sleep in and get up when they are good and ready to face the day? It sort of sounds like a real good racket... Granted many of the people like this are very religious and highly motivated to do what they see as G-ds work however I am almost sure an equal number see it as an excuse to hang around all day and avoid getting real employment... Honestly seeing people hanging around all day while I would be hard at work would wear very thin on my nerves after a while... The least young people like this could do is serve their country in one capacity or another for the required time that everyone else is required to do.
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Chilonim don't understand how important the Torah learning is for the survival of Israel; Charedim don't want to accept that Chilonim don't care about the Torah.
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The idea is to get Jews into Israel. The last thing we need is Jews to leave. It sounds nice and all, but definitely a bad thing.
What if one Charedim was able to bring ten Jews back to Torah and Israel?
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What if one Charedim was able to bring ten Jews back to Torah and Israel?
Great, but there are no guarantees. It's a very big risk.
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Lisa,
Joshua and King David were prophets of Hashem. Please tell me you realize that Bibi Netanyahu and his left-wing coalition are nowhere near the great men that Joshua and David Melech Yisrael were...
If the nation were led by the righteous redeemer, the Moshiach/Annointed One of Israel, I am sure that the Charedim would gladly join in the battle against Amalek and all the other nations which Hashem commands us to fight. But for the time being, most of these people do not believe that the secular Israeli leadership has an iota of Jewish soul(Torah And Mitzvot) in it...
Muman, I'm not comparing the current Israeli regime to Joshua and Moses. On the other hand, I should think religious Jews, Haredi or otherwise, would want to emulate Moshe Rabeinu and Joshua. Where did this idea come from that good religious Jews are only supposed to study the Torah and Talmud and not fight in the army or work?
Now I agree that the current regime in Israel is evil. But I'm having a hard time believing that if there was a religious government, that the Haredis would join in the army. (I know I'll most likely get criticized for this.)
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Muman, I'm not comparing the current Israeli regime to Joshua and Moses. On the other hand, I should think religious Jews, Haredi or otherwise, would want to emulate Moshe Rabeinu and Joshua. Where did this idea come from that good religious Jews are only supposed to study the Torah and Talmud and not fight in the army or work?
Now I agree that the current regime in Israel is evil. But I'm having a hard time believing that if there was a religious government, that the Haredis would join in the army. (I know I'll most likely get criticized for this.)
Again, their view on work and army is not how we see it. It's the opposite. In their eyes, work and army are how we (outsiders) view learning all day. Learning Torah, in their eyes, is the most important thing for survival; for us, on the other hand, we can't survive without working. Different mindset. It's pointless to try and understand that life. It's the same thing as trying to understand what came before Bereishit, what will happen after we are gone, G-d's reasons for doing things, and whether or not G-d could build a tower so high that he can't reach.
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I agree... People that spend the entire day doing religious observance should be official clergy that get room and board from whatever religious organization the become affiliated with... Where do people like this now get their money from? If they are a bit tired one day do they sleep in and get up when they are good and ready to face the day? It sort of sounds like a real good racket... Granted many of the people like this are very religious and highly motivated to do what they see as G-ds work however I am almost sure an equal number see it as an excuse to hang around all day and avoid getting real employment... Honestly seeing people hanging around all day while I would be hard at work would wear very thin on my nerves after a while... The least young people like this could do is serve their country in one capacity or another for the required time that everyone else is required to do.
They are checked. If they miss even by a few minutes they and the whole Yeshiva is severely penalized. No one (unless they are completely independently sponsored or have some other source of income) just "hangs out".
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Muman, I'm not comparing the current Israeli regime to Joshua and Moses. On the other hand, I should think religious Jews, Haredi or otherwise, would want to emulate Moshe Rabeinu and Joshua. Where did this idea come from that good religious Jews are only supposed to study the Torah and Talmud and not fight in the army or work?
Now I agree that the current regime in Israel is evil. But I'm having a hard time believing that if there was a religious government, that the Haredis would join in the army. (I know I'll most likely get criticized for this.)
Its a complicated issue. Rav Kahane writes about it as well. Their are situations where even a king (and a good one) cannot force a Jew to do anything including join in on the fighting. The reasoning is that we follow the King of all Kings over someone who is just a slave (even if he is a King here) in comparison to G-D). On the other hand real fighting and value of work is great and praiseworthy. It all depends on the individual. Some individuals are cut out for Limud Torah, others of work (and still some study as well) etc.
Also some of these intifadas have been inspired because of the non-religious. The Arabs are by no means innocent or anything, but they did and do draw their strength from the fact that their are non-religious Jews. For example a Jew (guard at a prision) disregarding the laws of Pessah and eating Chametz inspired one of the intifadas.
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Good to see you back, Tag! :)
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Shalom Tag... Good to see your back...
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Welcome back jerk! :)
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Welcome back jerk! :)
Huh? You have been harassing me to come back now you say this?
Yea I cooled down for a few days.
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They are checked. If they miss even by a few minutes they and the whole Yeshiva is severely penalized. No one (unless they are completely independently sponsored or have some other source of income) just "hangs out".
Sure they do. Even the ones who don't exist except on fake registers.
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Huh? You have been harassing me to come back now you say this?
Yea I cooled down for a few days.
I was teasing, I'm glad you're back. Did you like all the messages?
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Because the Joshuaic/Davidic IDF was not a kapo Nazi SS force...
Excellent point!