JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mein Koran on February 28, 2013, 06:04:31 AM
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I am wondering if, according to the Torah, it is possible for moder-day Israel to be destroyed?
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I am wondering if, according to the Torah, it is possible for moder-day Israel to be destroyed?
Everything can be destroyed, but i don't think Israel will let it happen.
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Nope. God won't let that happen.
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And I was wondering, why do you post another topic on-edge, just like "Muhammad was a self-hating Jew?" And I wonder that due to my analytical-psychological skills which tells me this topic could be double-faced, double-dealing....
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I don't believe that Israel will ever be completely destroyed.
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And I was wondering, why do you post another topic on-edge, just like "Muhammad was a self-hating Jew?" And I wonder that due to my analytical-psychological skills which tells me this topic could be double-faced, double-dealing....
I only ask because I was reading the "issues" section on the main page and it seemed like Israel was in genuine danger of being destroyed, I wanted to know if that was possible according to the torah or not
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1. Muhammad was a self-hating Jew
Started by Exmuslim« 1 2 3»
2. Could Israel be destroyed?
Started by Exmuslim
3. Meir Kahane wear a kippah?
Started by Exmuslim
Exmuslim
Junior JTFer
Posts: 85
I know its a strange question but in all the pictures and interviews of Meir Kahane that I've seen he doesnt appear to be wearing a kippah. Why is this?
Re: Muhammad was a self-hating Jew
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2013, 07:54:48 PM »
Exmuslim
Junior JTFer
Posts: 85
I thik its very intresting that all the biggest enemied of Jews were self-hating Jews. Lenin, Hitler, and Muhammad
Exmuslim,
I don't think it is necessary to go further with YOUR posts. I will finish it with a saying: "more than meets the eye"
In this case, your posts and topics you have started seem double-tounged and ambiguous. IMO you are making provocations in a cunning, shrewd way so they don't appear as what thay are-provocations. I doubt my analysis are incorrect.
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And I was wondering, why do you post another topic on-edge, just like "Muhammad was a self-hating Jew?" And I wonder that due to my analytical-psychological skills which tells me this topic could be double-faced, double-dealing....
I kinda agree here with Lady 10. While we welcome diverse topics... this is the second very questionable... borderline trollish post from you.
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G-d promised in His Torah that the Jews as a people will never be destroyed. However, G-d never promised that the current State of Israel will never be destroyed.
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G-d promised in His Torah that the Jews as a people will never be destroyed. However, G-d never promised that the current State of Israel will never be destroyed.
Thank you that's all I wanted to know.
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G-d promised in His Torah that the Jews as a people will never be destroyed. However, G-d never promised that the current State of Israel will never be destroyed.
So what I want to understand is: what point is there is worrying? Won't god just work everything out for Israel without our help? Or is there some kind of punishment for not working to carry out God's will?
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So what I want to understand is: what point is there is worrying? Won't god just work everything out for Israel without our help? Or is there some kind of punishment for not working to carry out God's will?
We must make the effort, and G-d will make it happen.... We don't rely on miracles...
http://www.aish.com/h/c/t/dt/48964181.html
Neat story in many regards. Vinegar burning like oil -- an open miracle! There is an important question however, that begs an answer. Jewish philosophy has a general rule of "not relying on miracles to occur." As the Talmud explains, a person should never place himself in a dangerous situation (bungee jumping comes to mind, or perhaps negotiating an LA freeway) and say, "I'm not worried, God will save me miraculously."
Why not? Because God may not ride in to your rescue! And even if you do merit Divine intervention, you will still have to foot the bill by "paying" for your miracle -- by having merits deducted from your account at the "In God We Trust" celestial credit union.
We, the Jewish people, are in a partnership with Hashem. We MUST do our Hishtadlut (Work in this world) and he will provide us the strength and power to accomplish our goals. When we make HIS goals our goals, we then merit his divine providence.
http://www.aish.com/tp/i/m/48966061.html
Blood, Sweat and Tears
by Rabbi Noson Weisz
Parshat Shlach, a record of the tragic story of the spies, revolves around a concept that has no counterpart in secular culture. As the concept does not exist, there is no word in the vocabulary of the English language that encapsulates it. The concept is called hishtadlut in Hebrew, and although we shall loosely translate it as "effort," bear in mind in the succeeding discussion that we are dealing with an entirely novel cultural concept.
One of the most difficult and confusing problems that every believer in Divine Providence must confront is the determination of the proper measure of hishtadlut or effort that must be applied to life situations.
The believer walks around with the firm conviction that all effort is futile in a sense. He is taught that "everything is in the hands of God except for the fear of God" (Talmud, Brochot, 33b). Even the level of each person's income is set on Rosh Hashana till the following Rosh Hashana (Talmud, Baba Batra, 10a).
The need to expend the effort to bring about the foreordained result is presented by the Torah as a curse:
Accursed is the ground because of you; through suffering shall you eat of it all the days of your life ... By the sweat of your brow shall you eat bread until you return to the ground from which you were taken. (Genesis 3:17-19)
Man's bread comes from God in any case and does not grow out of his application of effort. It was man's sin that brought the curse of effort down on his head. While no one can escape this curse entirely as long as our present world endures, it is obvious that it would be the act of an idiot to voluntarily subject oneself to a curse more than is absolutely mandatory.
JUST SHORT OF MIRACULOUS
According to Rabbi Dessler, Rav Shmuel of Salant, one of the early luminaries of the Mussar Movement defined this minimum point of absolute necessity as the duty to live just short of miraculously. He made his living by purchasing lottery tickets. He would occasionally win modest sums which sufficed to provide him with his livelihood. His theory: this was a legitimate sort of effort permissible under the terms of the curse as it allowed the person observing his life from the outside a choice: 1) the observer (if he was a believer) could conclude that Rav Shmuel was living miraculously or 2) the obsever (if he wasn't a believer) could attribute Rav Shmuel's small periodic windfalls to luck or to chance.
But Rav Shmuel is hardly typical of the norm even for the greatest holy men, tzadikim. Universal Jewish custom has always been to engage in some sort of commercial enterprise no matter how modest. Thus the sage Hillel made his living as a wood chopper (Talmud Yuma 35b), and we find rabbis in the Talmud who were shoemakers or blacksmiths etc.
Illustrative of the rabbinic attitude toward this entire issue of effort is the well known statement of Rav to Rabbi Kahana, "hire yourself out in the market to skin carcasses and never say 'I am a great talmudic scholar [so how can I engage in an activity that is so beneath my dignity]'" (Talmud Baba Basra 110a).
Of course, today the curse of Adam appears to have greatly expanded. Very religious people, whose lives are genuinely focused around their Divine service are working full time as businessmen or professionals so that they have only an hour or two available in their day to devote to the study of Torah and prayer. Does this make sense? What is the correct measure of effort? How can we go about solving this very complex question intelligently?
Careful analysis reveals that the amount of hishtadlut necessary varies according to the measure of bitachon --one's trust in God, another Jewish idea that is very difficult to translate into secular vocabulary.
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Regarding your origin inquiry:
I believe that the Jewish people are eternal. The 'Jewish State' today however does not have this eternal nature because at this time we don't have the Kingdom of Hashem on earth which will be revealed when we have Moshiach. We do believe that once the Third Temple is erected (when Moshiach comes) it will last till the end of days and never again be destroyed. Unfortunately todays so-called 'Geulah' is incomplete without the holy nature of the Jewish state restored. Todays secular Israel state is far from Holy...
See : http://m.chabad.org/m/article_cdo/aid/539850
http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380303/jewish/Modern-Physics-and-the-Shamir.htm
It is the dream of all Jews to assist in building the Third (and final) Temple. To do so, the stones must be carved. But would we be doing this in the same way as King Solomon did, or would we just be building an edifice? An essential element in Solomon's construction of the Temple was the miraculous shamir stonecutter. In instructing us how to make the permanent altar to G-d, the Torah says, "do not build it out of cut stone" (Ex. 20:22). Rashi comments on this verse that iron, the material of deadly weapons, should not be used to shape the stones of the Temple, the essence of which is peace.
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Very helpful Muman, thank you
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My answer is Gd forbid any catastrophic thing would take place on Jews and Israelis ever again. The Jewish people will never disappear but all other powerful evil nations will disappear along their histories.
Modern day Israel will physically exist, but the non Torah secular state will disappear either by force, detrement of a horrible war, or preferably peaceful gradual change (which is what jtf would rather have. We don't want dead Jews and Israelis to lead to the Torah state). And that answers the second question. Gd will save us and help us, but better that we die trying to save ourselves than to simply do nothing about it. Wouldn't you rather fight for survival rather than be slaughtered like sheep? Didn't think so.
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I agree Dr Dan...
Most religious Zionists believe that todays state is a 1st step toward the 'geulah'/redemption. We would like to see a gradual change of more observance by the Jewish population in Israel, not through coercion but through genuine teshuva/return of the nation of Israel.
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http://www.isralight.org/assets/Text/RSS_pesach05.html
Rabbi Abraham Isaac HaCohen Kook, in his epic work Orot, wrote:
“HaGeula nimshechet hi v’holechet. Geulat Mitzrayim, v’Geulat haatid hashleima hi peulat achat she’eina poseket, peulat hayad hachazaka, vhazeroa netuya, asher hechela bemitzrayim, v’hi poelet et peuloteha b’chol hamesibot...”
“The redemption continues and is ongoing. The redemption from Egypt and the complete redemption of the future are one unending action: the action of Gd’s ‘strong hand and outstretched arm,’ which began in Egypt and continues to work through all eventualities...”
According to Rav Kook, the process of Geula, of the redemption of Israel, is an ongoing process, a work in progress that began with the exodus from Egypt, and as the Sefat Emet explained weaves its path throughout the many trials and tribulations of Jewish History, as part of that ongoing journey to our destiny, the complete redemption of the future. Thus on the Seder night as the matza lies broken before us, and the afikoman is hidden away for the conclusion of the Seder yet to come, we celebrate that the process of Geula is well underway. Throughout Jewish History, even during periods of great anguish, when things seemed so broken like the matza that lies on the table before us, Jews have gathered to recall that the process which began with Yetziat Mitzrayim is a work in progress
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Rav Kook Wrote a lot on the coming of the redemption, he was in Israel just before the secular state was established in 1948...
http://ravkooktorah.org/YOM_ATZMAUT_68.htm
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Sacred Roots
Despite the current secular nature of Zionism, the return to Eretz Yisrael in recent times was first promoted by great tzaddikim — starting with the disciples of the Gaon of Vilna and the Baal Shem Tov — and Zionism derives its spiritual nourishment from these holy roots.
"[It was] the lofty righteous of previous generations who ignited a holy inner fire, a burning love for the holiness of Eretz Yisrael in the hearts of God's people. Due to their efforts, individuals gathered in the desolate land, until significant areas became a garden of Eden, and a large and important community of the entire people of Israel has settled in our holy land....
"Recently, however, the pious and great scholars have gradually abandoned the enterprise of settling the Holy Land.... This holy work has been appropriated by those lacking in [Torah] knowledge and good deeds.... Nonetheless, we see that the [secularists'] dedication in deed and action is nourished from the initial efforts of true tzaddikim, who kindled the holy desire to rebuild the Holy Land and return our exiles there."
Breaking of the Vessels
For Rav Kook, the fall of Zionism into the hands of the secularists was a form of shevirat keilim, reminiscent of the Kabbalistic 'breaking of vessels' that occurred when the universe was created. The original light and holiness was simply too great to be contained within the limitations of the physical vessels; and it is our task to return these fallen sparks to their elevated source.
But why did the return to the land of Israel need to be appropriated by a secular nationalist movement? Rav Kook attempted to solve this riddle by noting certain qualities lacking in religious circles:
"The fundamental moral force hidden in [the Zionist movement] ... is its motto, 'the entire nation.' This nationalism proclaims... that it seeks to redeem the entire Jewish people. It does not concern itself with individuals or parties or sectors.... And with this perspective, it reaches out to the land of Israel and the love of Zion with a remarkable bravery and courage.
"It is clear that we cannot confront this adversary if we lack the same noble sense of responsibility that speaks in the name of the entire nation, all of Israel. We may not distinguish and divide. We may not say, 'This one is one of ours so we will take care of him, but not that one.' ... [We must] care in our hearts and souls for the good of the entire nation and its redemption, in the most inclusive way possible."
Additionally, Rav Kook explained that the pre-Messianic era requires a more practical, down-to-earth orientation, so that the Jewish people may return to their land as a healthy, balanced nation, after centuries of detached statelessness in exile.
"We have a tradition [see Sotah 49b] that there will be a spiritual revolt of the Jewish people in Eretz Yisrael during the initial period of national revival.... The aspirations for lofty and holy ideals will cease and the nation's spirit will sink.... The necessity for this revolt will be the tendency for materialism, which must be powerfully generated in the entire nation after the passage of so many years in which the need and availability of material pursuits were completely absent. When born, this proclivity will trample angrily and stir up storms; these are the birth pangs of the Messianic era." (Orot HaTechiyah sec. 44, p. 84)
However, secular Zionism can only bring about the material rebuilding of the Jewish people in their homeland. The nation's complete renewal will only come about when Zionism is restored to its original holiness.
"Secular nationalism may be defiled with much defilement, concealing many evil spirits. But we will not succeed by trying to expel this movement from the nation's soul. Rather we must energetically return it to its elevated source and combine it with the original holiness from which it emanates." (Orot HaTechiyah sec. 22, p. 75)
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Not exactly related to the topic, but it would be helpful to learn about the great Rabbi Kook from this video documentary...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7iHIRwpU2o
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1. Muhammad was a self-hating Jew
Started by Exmuslim« 1 2 3»
2. Could Israel be destroyed?
Started by Exmuslim
3. Meir Kahane wear a kippah?
Started by Exmuslim
Exmuslim
Junior JTFer
Posts: 85
I know its a strange question but in all the pictures and interviews of Meir Kahane that I've seen he doesnt appear to be wearing a kippah. Why is this?
Re: Muhammad was a self-hating Jew
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2013, 07:54:48 PM »
Exmuslim
Junior JTFer
Posts: 85
I thik its very intresting that all the biggest enemied of Jews were self-hating Jews. Lenin, Hitler, and Muhammad
Exmuslim,
I don't think it is necessary to go further with YOUR posts. I will finish it with a saying: "more than meets the eye"
In this case, your posts and topics you have started seem double-tounged and ambiguous. IMO you are making provocations in a cunning, shrewd way so they don't appear as what thay are-provocations. I doubt my analysis are incorrect.
Maybe he's a loose cannon like me.
Although I'm completely out of focus.
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I don't believe that Israel will ever be completely destroyed.
Exactly.
The land of Israel has not ceased to exist.
True, it can come under attack, although. But, I believe there are enough religious and g-d fearing Jews in Israel to call the whole of the nation to complete repentance Teshuvah.
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And I was wondering, why do you post another topic on-edge, just like "Muhammad was a self-hating Jew?" And I wonder that due to my analytical-psychological skills which tells me this topic could be double-faced, double-dealing....
Yes, EM sure likes to post provocative topics.
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I agree Dr Dan...
Most religious Zionists believe that todays state is a 1st step toward the 'geulah'/redemption. We would like to see a gradual change of more observance by the Jewish population in Israel, not through coercion but through genuine teshuva/return of the nation of Israel.
Because it would be an act of free will and not associated with Gdly reward or punishment.
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If EM were a troll he or she hasn't done anything to warrant a banning. So just go along with the topics EM posts and lets show him or her what we are made of.
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"Could" implies something happening "within the realm of possibility." So "Could Israel be destroyed?" I say yes, it "could." For examples, if we sit back and do nothing while our MORTAL enemies get nuclear bombs, then the possibility becomes greater. Not too great -- but greater. I wonder what the response would be to the following question had it been asked in, say, 1935: "Could most of the Jews in Europe be rounded up and tortured and slaughtered?" Remember this: "Man proposes and G-d disposes."
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Israel will never be destroyed ! >:(
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Israel will never be destroyed ! >:(
Don't be angry....
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Right Dad! : :::D
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Exmuslim, God made a covenant with the children of Israel (the Jewish people) regarding the land of Israel, to answer your question, anything can be destroyed and I agree it's most of the members on the forum that what it says in the bible is that Israel will exist as a kingdom, however I do not believe anything is mentioned in the bible regarding what would happen to the modern state of Israel in terms that as a nation it is under secular rule and that Israel today does not comprise the entire territory of ancient Israel or the borders that were mentioned in the bible. God does state that a remnant of the Jews will always remain and therefore I believe that Israel may go through some extremely difficult times. It reminds me of when some of the Hebrews were worshipping the golden calf and the curses of Deuteronomy, however as a nation, the Jewish people are blessed and I believe that God will never forsake Israel and the Jewish people therefore whatever happens is temporary if Israel goes through difficult times and the kingdom of Israel will be restored as promised in the bible.
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There will always be a remnant saved of God's people...Jesus defeated Satan at the cross, and so God will defeat all false religions and those who have been haters of Israel. He will settle all disputes!
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There will always be a remnant saved of God's people...Jesus defeated Satan at the cross, and so God will defeat all false religions and those who have been haters of Israel. He will settle all disputes!
According to your belief your messiah defeated 'satan'.... But Satan is not defeated according to Jewish belief, and Satan is not against G-d in the least according to our beliefs. So whatever travials arise to challenge us are from Hashem, there is only ONE G-d...
I am not saying you are wrong from your religious perspective. But anytime I hear that Satan is involved with the fate of Israel I am reminded that Satan has no power over a Jew who believes in Hashem.
For a better understanding of a Jewish view of the 'Prosecutor' see : http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html
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No no no no no NO! That is not Christian belief! Don't take the bait!
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The Lubavitch Rebbe commented on the question 'Where was G-d during the Holocaust?'... He concludes that Satan was not involved at all with the events...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108398/jewish/Belief-After-the-Holocaust.htm
The destruction of six million Jews in such a horrific manner that surpassed the cruelty of all previous generations, could not possibly be because of a punishment for sins. Even the Satan himself could not possibly find a sufficient number of sins that would warrant such genocide!
There is absolutely no rationalistic explanation for the Holocaust except for the fact that it was a Divine decree … why it happened is above human comprehension – but it is definitely not because of punishment for sin.
On the contrary: All those who were murdered in the Holocaust are called “Kedoshim” – holy ones – since they were murdered in sanctification of G–d’s name. Since they were Jews, it is only G–d who will avenge their blood. As we say on Shabbat in the Av Harachamim prayer, “the holy communities who gave their lives for the sanctification of the Divine Name ... and avenge the spilled blood of His servants, as it is written in the Torah of Moshe ... for he will avenge the blood of his servants ... And in the Holy Writings it is said ... Let there be known among the nations, before our eyes, the retribution of the spilled blood of your servants.” G–d describes those who were sanctified as His servants, and promises to avenge their blood.
So great is the spiritual level of the Kedoshim – even disregarding their standing in mitzvah performance – that the Rabbis say about them, “no creation can stand in their place.” How much more so of those who died in the Holocaust, many of whom, as is well known, were among the finest of Europe’s Torah scholars and observant Jews.
It is inconceivable that the Holocaust be regarded as an example of punishment for sin, in particular when addressing this generation, which as mentioned before is “a firebrand plucked from the fire” of the Holocaust.