JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 29, 2013, 04:22:30 PM
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You support Noam Federman and hold highly of him, yett you aren't working together with the people he is supporting - Otzma LeYisrael- Baruch Marzel, Eldad, etc.
With the Knesset threshold being raised to 4 seats who is the world else would JTF / Hayamin be able to work with besides these people? It looks like neither Hayamin nor Otzma would ever have the chance to get in besides working together and putting petty differences aside.
I just saw on Noam's Facebook page under his "likes"
http://www.facebook.com/SUPPORT.NOAM.FEDERMAN
Almost only to do with Otza LeYisrael and its leaders and 1 other organization "צעד ימינה" (which I do not know about).
- Why is his "likes" almost only to do with Otzma and its leaders and not others like Hayamin?
(Sorry if I'm offending here, but I do not understand and would like to get to the bottom of this for the sake of HaRav's teachings and ideas being implemented).
By the way same with Elisheva's Facebook page as well
http://www.facebook.com/federman1/favorites
(Look at her favorites and likes, she has other things, but includes עוצמה לישראל and its affiliates. )
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Also Chaim are you in contact with any of them? And if not who are you in contact with in Israel?
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As far as I know Noam Federman doesn't support Otzma, he boycotts the elections. The profile you brought is some sort of a fake. I saw a comment on that same page by "Elisheva Federman" (his wife) saying: "Noam is running for the knesset ?! I never heard of this".
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When my friend was in Israel at the Federman house, Noam asked for Chaim to contact him.
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As far as I know Noam Federman doesn't support Otzma, he boycotts the elections. The profile you brought is some sort of a fake. I saw a comment on that same page by "Elisheva Federman" (his wife) saying: "Noam is running for the knesset ?! I never heard of this".
Yepp, the first one yes seems it isn't his (I just checked through it) and this is Elisheva's comment
נעם? לכנסת??? איני יודעת של מי היוזמה לדף זה. תודה על הפירגון...לנעם אישי היקר אין פייסבוק.אז אני כותבת בשמו: הוא לא בעניין של לרוץ לכנסת. הוא בהחלט היה מוכן להיות ראש ממשלת מדינת יהודה...
He was definitely ready to be Prime Minister of the State of Judea ...
BUT her I'm almost 100% certain is her own personal page and she does have those as "favorites" and "likes" as well. Check the page out yourself.
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I don't understand what you're saying. Assuming the Federmans or one of the Federmans supported otzma (which I doubt btw) does that mean we have to also?
Aside from the fact that they are fake kahanists, they also dragged Chaim's name through the mud. A jewish hero. This is how they treat him? How could anyone in their right mind expect our support for that group?
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I don't understand what you're saying. Assuming the Federmans or one of the Federmans supported otzma (which I doubt btw) does that mean we have to also?
Aside from the fact that they are fake kahanists, they also dragged Chaim's name through the mud. A jewish hero. This is how they treat him? How could anyone in their right mind expect our support for that group?
Exactly, they want to be PC, so they stab Chaim in the back!
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I don't understand what you're saying. Assuming the Federmans or one of the Federmans supported otzma (which I doubt btw) does that mean we have to also?
Aside from the fact that they are fake kahanists, they also dragged Chaim's name through the mud. A jewish hero. This is how they treat him? How could anyone in their right mind expect our support for that group?
Expanding on what you expressed: If those people that acted like fake Kahanists apologize to Chaim in a manner that Chaim is satisfied with their apology AND they act like real Kahanists from now on, I'll gladly support them.
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Expanding on what you expressed: If those people that acted like fake Kahanists apologize to Chaim in a manner that Chaim is satisfied with their apology AND they act like real Kahanists from now on, I'll gladly support them.
Whatever the results will be with any fighting and without them joining both Chaim and Marzel (and co.) will be out of the Knesset. And with it being raised to 4 seats they would be out anyway even if together they would need to join with others in any event in order to get in (probably join as a faction of the Bayit Yehudi). If not then only by the others parties screwing up extremely and a lot and a lot of publicity is their only a slimmer of a chance. Almost no new parties would get in. Most people would see it as a waste of votes.
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Whatever the results will be with any fighting and without them joining both Chaim and Marzel (and co.) will be out of the Knesset. And with it being raised to 4 seats they would be out anyway even if together they would need to join with others in any event in order to get in (probably join as a faction of the Bayit Yehudi). If not then only by the others parties screwing up extremely and a lot and a lot of publicity is their only a slimmer of a chance. Almost no new parties would get in. Most people would see it as a waste of votes.
As much as I would to see Chaim and others in the JTF Movement get into the Knesset, it would defeat the purpose if they had to compromise their principles on core issues such as not giving up ANY Israeli land, a plan to compensate the Arab Muslims to leave Israel forever that aren't directly terrorists, executing the Muslim Nazi Terrorists that committed terrorism in Israel, dealing with the Iranian Nuclear Program proactively, and freeing Jewish prisoners in Israel that went to prison in their support for the land of Israel. On some far lesser issues, some negotiations with the other parties can hopefully lead to agreements that everyone involve would be comfortable.
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I voted for the Jewish house as the least worse option. I would vote for Hayamin Haamiti if they run with Matzel and other fake Kahanists as long as either #1 or #2 place belong to Hayamin.
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Gladd Chaim talked about it on ASK JTF and said similar thing. I would also think it would be good to at least consider MK Rabbi Haim Amsalem (among others).
http://amshalem.org/en/
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Looks to me like Shabak is posing as Noam on the internet.
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Gladd Chaim talked about it on ASK JTF and said similar thing. I would also think it would be good to at least consider MK Rabbi Haim Amsalem (among others).
http://amshalem.org/en/
Haim Amsalem is a leftist pet haredi of Jew haters.
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Haim Amsalem is a leftist pet haredi of Jew haters.
Not sure what your statement means but he wants to encourage Haredim to work more and do army service as well.
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Not sure what your statement means but he wants to encourage Haredim to work more and do army service as well.
He is a leftist. In his platform he avoided referring to the issue of settlements and retreats but he is in favor of dismantling settlements, he said he believes the "settlement blocks" (about 2% of the territories) will remain in Israel, actually he said that he thinks that there is a wide agreement about this and he is fine with it. His actual red most likely stands right at his own neck.
He is also in favor of robo-conversions of gentiles in Israel.
Also his platform is full of social demagogy like subsidized housing and affirmative action.
http://www.bhol.co.il/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=2993797&forum_id=771
http://amshalem.org.il/akronot.aspx
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His conversion policy is the same as Rav Ovadia Yosef's yett because they in Shas trashed him about it he is now seen as being lenient by people like you (the public). Yett they are equal in their stance. And the "ultra-Orthodox" Lituanian conversion policies can be too demanding and too strict with those who want to become Jews. I do not know enough about this but I feel that the halacha would probably be much much much more lenient and accepting of converts. Also just remembered that his stance is to allow easier conversions for those who have some Jewish grandparents etc (like grandfather or father is Jewish) and they feel part of the Jewish nation. For them the "zera Yisrael" he says that we need to be more accepting to those who come and want to be fully Jewish. This is his opinion and one would need to look at the Halahic responses before going on and trashing halahic stances that I am sure you did not take a look at yourself.
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His conversion policy is the same as Rav Ovadia Yosef's yett because they in Shas trashed him about it he is now seen as being lenient by people like you (the public). Yett they are equal in their stance. And the "ultra-Orthodox" Lituanian conversion policies can be too demanding and too strict with those who want to become Jews. I do not know enough about this but I feel that the halacha would probably be much much much more lenient and accepting of converts. Also just remembered that his stance is to allow easier conversions for those who have some Jewish grandparents etc (like grandfather or father is Jewish) and they feel part of the Jewish nation. For them the "zera Yisrael" he says that we need to be more accepting to those who come and want to be fully Jewish. This is his opinion and one would need to look at the Halahic responses before going on and trashing halahic stances that I am sure you did not take a look at yourself.
He is trying to make Judaism more appealing to leftist atheists. I can't think of a better example for a "dati machmad" then Amsalem.
Regarding conversions, I don't want people to convert just so they will be secular self hating Jews. I actually prefer them to remain gentiles and if they feel like strangers in Israel and can't bear that feeling, well, the door is open then can look elsewhere. Or they can live in Israel as gentiles and accept the fact that this is the religious and national homeland of the Jewish people then I personally don't mind them living here but for the future I think we need to amend the law of return so it will only apply to Jews by halachic definition and self identity.
It's not up to me to decide on halacha but I can still have an opinion on public policy. And I think that it is a mistake to do mass instant conversions paid for by public funds. If it was just a few ultraorthodox who rejected these conversions that would be one thing, but there is a very big split on this issue among the rabbis. For the ones who are serious about converting there are other options then the super strict haredi courts.
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Zelhar what you said about the quick fake "conversions" is not what he stands for. No one is advocating that, he is basically advocating similar (or the same) as Rav Ovadia Yosef and not the ultra-strick Haredi type conversions that take a very long time with too much strain put on the potential converts. Why would a convert have to under-go all of that. It is mainly for people who want to be Jewish and be part of the Jewish people etc. Why outright reject them instead of working with them (and with the rest of secular Israel) in establishing a more Jewish identity.
" For the ones who are serious about converting there are other options then the super strict haredi courts."
But they are trying to block the way for everyone else that is the problem. Let's say someone wants to be what you might call modern-orthodox convert. They keep shabbat, keep Kashrut their wife goes to Mikwah, their kids to Jewish religious schools etc. why would they then have problems and issues moving to Israel because certain people in the Rabbanut don't like the Modern Orthodox Rabbis and/or have their other issues.
Whatever come to think of it, it doesn't even matter as much now. The Rabbanut is and will become more Dati-Leumi with the rise of the Jewish home and the Haredi parties being out of the coalition.
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I think that the main dispute on the conversions issue is with the IDF production line. It is not a serious process. Most of the "gerim" come out of that conversion with very little understanding of Judaism and without intention of living Jewish life. It is purely a matter of convenience for most of them. I suspect some of them only attain the classes so they could skip some less pleasant duties like kitchen duty and night watch.
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Dude how would you know people's intentions?
What is and what is not a serious enough process?
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I believe conversion should entail a certain amount of 'work' in order to attain. You don't become a Jew by just making a statement of belief. It comes down to what you think, how you think, what you do, and your desire to be close to Hashem.
I do believe that we should be careful about converts but at the same time not push them away. I know many righteous converts. It is a difficult line to walk (between pushing away and pulling in)...
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I generally can tell people's intentions, it is not so hard to see if someone is taking an issue seriously or not.
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??? I never claimed that their needs to be a chikchak "conversion" just for the sake of it. Nor does Rabbi Am Sallem (from what it seems) says that it should be like that. He is following the same exact Psak of Rav Ovadia Yosef yett is (was) being slammed by people who say they follow him?
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His conversion policy is the same as Rav Ovadia Yosef's yett because they in Shas trashed him about it he is now seen as being lenient by people like you (the public). Yett they are equal in their stance. And the "ultra-Orthodox" Lituanian conversion policies can be too demanding and too strict with those who want to become Jews. I do not know enough about this but I feel that the halacha would probably be much much much more lenient and accepting of converts. Also just remembered that his stance is to allow easier conversions for those who have some Jewish grandparents etc (like grandfather or father is Jewish) and they feel part of the Jewish nation. For them the "zera Yisrael" he says that we need to be more accepting to those who come and want to be fully Jewish. This is his opinion and one would need to look at the Halahic responses before going on and trashing halahic stances that I am sure you did not take a look at yourself.
I thought that by ALL authorities conversion is supposed to be a long and drawn out process that is not "simple" or easy to do. Am I wrong?
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Dude how would you know people's intentions?
What is and what is not a serious enough process?
The state of Israel made it "easy" to convert for when they brought in Russian goyim and wanted to integrate them into the army and society. Problem is, when all those quick and easy converts don't actually keep halacha, commit to Jewish practices, or even believe in God or Judaism, it's not a valid conversion process, and it just adds more chilonim into society to adjust demographics to be secular.
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I thought that by ALL authorities conversion is supposed to be a long and drawn out process that is not "simple" or easy to do. Am I wrong?
Nope (first part) second part- yes.
When someone came to Hillel to convert it was more simple and straightforward. Also I remember a story of a Roman soldier who was assigned to burn one of the Martyrs who made a conversion on the spot and jumped in the fire together with the Rabbi being killed (he made the Rabbi burn faster as his request because the evil empire was trying to make the process long and torture him long time before murdering him).
the only issue is other personal gain circumstances (for example someone wants to "convert" to marry the rich Jewish guy (or girl) or something like that. Not for ulterior and fake motives is not good, but if someone comes to convert, even if they revert back to their old ways they are still fully Jewish.
I don't think its about time and their needs to be a very long wait. Also remember that especially women have certain amount of time that they can get pregnant and have children. Making a young lady wait too long wastes her time in not finding a soulmate and getting married.
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Whatever the results will be with any fighting and without them joining both Chaim and Marzel (and co.) will be out of the Knesset. And with it being raised to 4 seats they would be out anyway even if together they would need to join with others in any event in order to get in (probably join as a faction of the Bayit Yehudi). If not then only by the others parties screwing up extremely and a lot and a lot of publicity is their only a slimmer of a chance. Almost no new parties would get in. Most people would see it as a waste of votes.
Most likely the Arab paries will take it to the Supreme Court & the court will rule against the 4 seat minimum in favor of the Arabs.
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The state of Israel made it "easy" to convert for when they brought in Russian goyim and wanted to integrate them into the army and society. Problem is, when all those quick and easy converts don't actually keep halacha, commit to Jewish practices, or even believe in God or Judaism, it's not a valid conversion process, and it just adds more chilonim into society to adjust demographics to be secular.
(Hebrew)
http://youtu.be/mERzna5n0RM
(English subtitles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQX_NGsmpRY
(Hebrew then translated into English, this is a series I saqw some time ago, follow the parts, I will try to see this again it address this and other major issues).
http://youtu.be/prV3Ap1Iu8Y?t=6m9s