JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Sveta on May 19, 2013, 04:55:18 AM
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Messianics are desperate to convert Jews. For a while, they enjoyed some success but Orthodox Rabbis have been fighting back for the past several years. From Rabbi Tovia Singer to Jews for Judaism.
Angry and upset by this, messianic organizations have attempted to infiltrate Jewish communities and poison people there. Inviting their neighbors to seders or to Shabbat dinners. Reaching out to Jews who don't know enough about Judaism and giving them Tallit and Mezuzot that say "yeshua" "moshiach" etc..
I think it is IMPORTANT even if one cannot read Hebrew, to know what "yeshua" looks like in Hebrew in order to be able to identify these usurpers and expose them.
A new low for messianics is to dress up their own and make them look "Orthodox". Just grow out a beard and put on a black hat and go out and preach to Jews! But one good look at these FAKE rabbis is enough to know they're all fakes! I have been aware of their messianic rabbis dressing like Jews but they have always looked like reform or conservative fakers. But now, they even try to go for the black hat hasidic look. And it's just disgusting. This man doesn't even look like a real Rabbi but it's enough to fool those who don't know any better. His speech about "marriage" is just ridiculous!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA6bWTDqdtI
I can accept that people like mormons or J's witness and others will go around preaching with their little church outfits- at least they don't fake trying to look hasidic to infiltrate Jewish communities or to create a confusing amongst Gentiles that Hasids can believe in yeshu.
Anyways, just a rant. Just beware! Notice these type of fakers and expose them!
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I am not sure it is new although most fakes don't bother growing such a massive beard.
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I do have to say, there is a small number of Messianics that do not believe in trying to convert Jews, and are against it. They just want to follow the traditional teachings of Jesus. They believe he is the most likely candidate for Messiah, but he is not Gd. They're Zionist and pro Jew.
Jews can use all the help they can get!
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Interesting, but I am yet to meet a messianic who doesn't believe it is not their job or goal to convert people into their sects. I have also not met a messianic who does not believe in the divinity of their messiah, who believes such things? Are there messianic groups who now say that yeshu is not the son of G-d?
Because I am in the process of transferring the lectures of Rabbi Tovia singer into videos on YouTube (and putting up images to go along with the videos) I have been doing some research and have found that pretty much all messianic groups claim the divinity of J. And they base their beliefs on Isaiah, Psalms, Zechariah, Daniel etc..
Which groups exactly are saying the opposite? Could this be a new tactic to make Jews feel more comfortable at becoming involved in their messianic churches?
As for the fake "rabbi" fraud in the video, yes he has grown a massive beard in order to make his point... if it is not a clip-on beard. He still looks and sounds like a fake anyways.
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Interesting, but I am yet to meet a messianic who doesn't believe it is not their job or goal to convert people into their sects. I have also not met a messianic who does not believe in the divinity of their messiah, who believes such things? Are there messianic groups who now say that yeshu is not the son of G-d?
Because I am in the process of transferring the lectures of Rabbi Tovia singer into videos on YouTube (and putting up images to go along with the videos) I have been doing some research and have found that pretty much all messianic groups claim the divinity of J. And they base their beliefs on Isaiah, Psalms, Zechariah, Daniel etc..
Which groups exactly are saying the opposite? Could this be a new tactic to make Jews feel more comfortable at becoming involved in their messianic churches?
As for the fake "rabbi" fraud in the video, yes he has grown a massive beard in order to make his point... if it is not a clip-on beard. He still looks and sounds like a fake anyways.
This is one group, JTF please do not attack them. They have been attacked like crazy from Christian's... http://templebethhashem.org/
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I also think Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Seven day advents, and the Church of Gd are a step in the right direction...
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I am not inciting people to attack anyone. But I do regret having followed the link. Sadly, people like to write out the names of Hashem that should not be written, such as Ado"shem" (but the real spelling of Adoshem not the edited one I wrote). It's like if there is no more sanctity in the world left, so disrespectful. People write out the names of Hashem as if they were writing out any other word I guess.
I don't know much about the J's Witnesses but I don't know how mormons are a step in the right direction. The only positive thing I see in them is that at least they don't pretend like they don't want to convert others, they are very open about it and don't try to dress up like Hasidim to try to convert people. Others sects act like they respect that you're Jewish but pray for you behind your back and leave little missionary pamphlets when you're not looking. Or invite you for a purely "non-religious" event that turns out to be a church gathering.
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I am not inciting people to attack anyone. But I do regret having followed the link. Sadly, people like to write out the names of Hashem that should not be written, such as Ado"shem" (but the real spelling of Adoshem not the edited one I wrote). It's like if there is no more sanctity in the world left, so disrespectful. People write out the names of Hashem as if they were writing out any other word I guess.
I don't know much about the J's Witnesses but I don't know how mormons are a step in the right direction. The only positive thing I see in them is that at least they don't pretend like they don't want to convert others, they are very open about it and don't try to dress up like Hasidim to try to convert people. Others sects act like they respect that you're Jewish but pray for you behind your back and leave little missionary pamphlets when you're not looking. Or invite you for a purely "non-religious" event that turns out to be a church gathering.
I don't think you're inciting anything.... No one is perfect on their way back to HaShem! The groups I named are all taking a step back and embracing Israel, they definitely have not got it right yet...
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The "Bet Hashem" Church is just like the original Xtianity. But they shouldn't call it "Judaism". Other than that they are like the Puritans who wanted to ban X-mas from New England and preferred to celebrate Thanksgiving.
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This is one group, JTF please do not attack them. They have been attacked like crazy from Christian's... http://templebethhashem.org/
They certainly pretend to be Jews so I don't think you can honestly say they don't believe in converting Jews. The theology of 100% of the various "messianics" is some sort of Christian protenstant/evangelical brand. So they should use the cross and not the star of david as their sign, and call their house of prayer "church" rather then "temple" or "shul". They are 100% Christians except they dress like religious Jews and use some broken Hebrew now and then.
I also think Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Seven day advents, and the Church of Gd are a step in the right direction...
At least the first two I know to be very actively praying on Jews. Moreover these are insane cults. They are on the right direction... to hell.
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They certainly pretend to be Jews so I don't think you can honestly say they don't believe in converting Jews. The theology of 100% of the various "messianics" is some sort of Christian protenstant/evangelical brand. So they should use the cross and not the star of david as their sign, and call their house of prayer "church" rather then "temple" or "shul". They are 100% Christians except they dress like religious Jews and use some broken Hebrew now and then.
At least the first two I know to be very actively praying on Jews. Moreover these are insane cults. They are on the right direction... to hell.
:::D I came across the Messianics before I found JTF, I do know they are not trying to convert Jews, it is the opposite. They are wannabes, they just want to be accepted by Jews, and some of them are trying to convert to Judaism. Also they should not call them selves Jews!
As for the other groups, I don't know much about them. But I do find it interesting that they have taken a step back, why, there's obviously something wrong... As for them being Missionaries of Jews, that is wrong!
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Don't ask me what I think about missionary messianic meshugenas...
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LOL soo fake. He didn't even chuckle once!
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Not nearly as bad as this F@G! Who actually does get some Jewish audience especially in the "settlements"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW0ssvr_ue4
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I always thought if he was a rabbi, he was a Deform rabbi. The video you posted reminds me of Shmuley Boteach's book "Kosher Jesus".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_Jesus
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I always thought if he was a rabbi, he was a Deform rabbi. The video you posted reminds me of Shmuley Boteach's book "Kosher Jesus".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_Jesus
He really is a Jew?
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He really is a Jew?
I believe Rabbi Riskin is Jewish, although I have never listened to him speak because I have heard he is not exactly a zionist and he supports a terrorist state in the midst of Israel. I would rather not know about him and recommend others to ignore him, rather than to speak derogatorily about him.
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I believe Rabbi Riskin is Jewish, although I have never listened to him speak because I have heard he is not exactly a zionist and he supports a terrorist state in the midst of Israel. I would rather not know about him and recommend others to ignore him, rather than to speak derogatorily about him.
Actually I think he is regarded as a zionist actually (and Modern-Orthodox/ Mamlachti- Underlying State worshipper). He lives on a "settlement", but I would bet he is one of those who tries to make peace with his Arab enemy neighbors. He was also on Glenn Beck show. The problem is that people like him take their American culture and upbringing and label it as "Judaism" and such. Not talking trash against American culture etc. but let's say what is and what isn't. These people believe American democracy, Constitution, etc. IS Judaism. Also the fact that he sucks up about joshka is disturbing and calls him a "model Rabbi". LOL what a suckup.
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But whatever apparently after many Jews caught his statements and trashed him about it he retracted
http://esseragaroth.blogspot.com/2009/12/riskin-is-completely-nuts-or-is-he.html
He looks like he is taking a sh^t when he talks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inT6kv4ag8g
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But whatever apparently after many Jews caught his statements and trashed him about it he retracted
http://esseragaroth.blogspot.com/2009/12/riskin-is-completely-nuts-or-is-he.html
He looks like he is taking a sh^t when he talks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inT6kv4ag8g
I don't know anything about this guy, but some of you guys automatically go after anyone who talks about Jesus. But some of these guys might have an influence on Christians, and make them realize they are not following the law...
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I don't know anything about this guy, but some of you guys automatically go after anyone who talks about Jesus. But some of these guys might have an influence on Christians, and make them realize they are not following the law...
Its not about having an influence. Its about bending over and trying to impress his christian friends. This is a lemming straight up. This is the same attitude that he and those like him have to the state as well (undying state loyalty, following orders etc.). Their just are some people who try to please everyone and not offend anyone. People like that end up distorting the truth.
Also about your last statement, that is untrue. If anything the opposite is achieved. Some who would actually leave feel relieved and good about yoshka because now they got to soo-called Hasgha (Kosher stamp) by a "Rabbi". Its just like in the first video as well. Why you think they went through all that bs to get someone (supposedly) dressed as a "Rabbi" to speak. It was mentioned before about trying to get Jews, but it just came to me its probably just as important for them to try to keep their own people satisfied and "reinforced" in their faith. It is no different then the Mooslim video's that try to claim that their are "Rabbis" who believe in Islam, or embrace it etc. Or them trying to prove their non-sense from our Torah.
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Ephraim,
My experience is that most so-called Christians can give a hoot about the law... They care about what they were taught as a child and how it makes them feel. Once a man believes that 'Jesus saves' he will virtually never give up his crutch.. I have repeatedly posted about how Hashem is One, that he is not a trinity, and he is not a man, and I get attacked for doing so.. I can understand their belief because how can a person say that 'Jesus doesn't love you'...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoofwbuKoRs&feature=share&list=PLB3DE7C36D11147D8
Like at this schmuck (who is dead now, which is good for his own sake) sucking up to pisslam.
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Ephraim,
My experience is that most so-called Christians can give a hoot about the law... They care about what they were taught as a child and how it makes them feel. Once a man believes that 'Jesus saves' he will virtually never give up his crutch.. I have repeatedly posted about how Hashem is One, that he is not a trinity, and he is not a man, and I get attacked for doing so.. I can understand their belief because how can a person say that 'Jesus doesn't love you'...
I know it upsets me as well, thinking you can sin as much as you want and someone else will save you... A majority of my mothers family were Masons, and they teach by being righteous and doing good deeds in the world and following the laws of the Bible, you will go to heaven, but some groups say, if you do not except someone as your Savior you will parish.... Which I find asinine, beings the creator of the religion was a Jew and followed the law...
I blame Paul, for modern day Christianity! Same guy that killed the early Christians...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoofwbuKoRs&feature=share&list=PLB3DE7C36D11147D8
Like at this schmuck (who is dead now, which is good for his own sake) sucking up to pisslam.
LeHavdil, that video with the Arabic and English translation sounded like a Sfardic prayer a little bit. With the translation I could understand some of the words in Arabic that sounded like Hebrew. But that video didn't include the part about Allah commanding Muslims to kill the infidels.
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Wow, regarding the video of Rabbi Froman... it's intense. I could NEVER call Hashem "Allah"- it just does not feel the same at all.
As for Paul. Yes he is the one to blame. The gospel of Matthew was aimed at a Jewish audience and because of it's mistranslations of Jewish scripture that it used to prove itself- it was a failure at converting Jews. Paul on the other hand wanted to start with spreading the words to Jews but he was not successful as he was when he went to the Gentiles. Consequently, during the time of the writing of Matthew and Paul, there was no such teaching of a "trinity"
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Wow, regarding the video of Rabbi Froman... it's intense. I could NEVER call Hashem "Allah"- it just does not feel the same at all.
As for Paul. Yes he is the one to blame. The gospel of Matthew was aimed at a Jewish audience and because of it's mistranslations of Jewish scripture that it used to prove itself- it was a failure at converting Jews. Paul on the other hand wanted to start with spreading the words to Jews but he was not successful as he was when he went to the Gentiles. Consequently, during the time of the writing of Matthew and Paul, there was no such teaching of a "trinity"
Paul was the founder of Xtianity. I also heard that he was a rabbi that infiltrated Xtianity to get it to separate from Judaism so it would stop trying to convert Jews. Before Paul, they were similar to the J4J cults of today.
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http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/715371/Dr._Shnayer_Leiman/Jewish_Perspectives_on_Early_Christianity_-_Nittel,_the_Ninth_of_Teves_and_Pope_Simon_Peter_-_Cong_Beth_Abraham
Here is a shiur about the infiltration into Christianity. I used to think Paul was evil for starting Christianity, but according to this he is remembered as a tzadik for infiltrating it and stopping them from converting Jews.
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http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/715371/Dr._Shnayer_Leiman/Jewish_Perspectives_on_Early_Christianity_-_Nittel,_the_Ninth_of_Teves_and_Pope_Simon_Peter_-_Cong_Beth_Abraham
Here is a shiur about the infiltration into Christianity. I used to think Paul was evil for starting Christianity, but according to this he is remembered as a tzadik for infiltrating it and stopping them from converting Jews.
If this is true... Which it does make sence.
He is not good or a Tzadik and he didn't stop Jews from being converted! What it did was, bring Jewish bloodshed and lead a large population of the world astray and into idol worship... >:(
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If this is true... Which it does make sence.
He is not good or a Tzadik and he didn't stop Jews from being converted! What it did was, bring Jewish bloodshed and lead a large population of the world astray and into idol worship...
Actually the majority of the world was into idol worship even before christianity. I didn't listen to this but I did hear similar thing before and I am aware (although very little) about this.
If it is true (and it is just a theory), it actually pushed away the "reform judaism" if you will of that time. And it did keep many Jews away from it as well by making a clear havdalah or distinction between Judaism and the new cult that sprang out that claimed to follow Judaism.
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A Jew who joins such a cult and goes about 'converting' a Jew from Judaism to his cult is looked upon by the Torah as the most wicked. The Torah proscribes death for such a person.
See Rambams Halachot below:
http://m.chabad.org/m/dailystudy/default.asp?tDate=2/18/2013&type=rambam3
Chapter Five
Translator's Introduction
This chapter also deals with a number of mitzvot that share a common theme and are derived from a single Biblical passage. Deuteronomy 13:2-12 relates:
[This is what you must do] when a prophet... arises and presents you with a sign or miracle... and says to you, "Let us follow after other gods whom you do not know and worship them." Do not listen to the words of that prophet.... That prophet... shall die, because he spoke rebelliously against God, your Lord....
[This is what you must do] if your brother..., your son, your daughter, your bosom wife, or your closest friend secretly proselytizes among you, and says, "Let us go and worship other gods whom neither you or your ancestors know."... Do not be attracted to him or listen to him. Do not let your eyes pity him. Do not show him any compassion. Do not try to cover up for him. Rather, you must surely put him to death. Your hand must be the first against him to kill him.... Stone him to death... because he tried to sway you away from God, your Lord.... And all Israel will hear and they will become afraid and they will not continue to do such evil things.
In Sefer HaMitzvot, the Rambam cites six mitzvot which are derived from this passage:
Negative Commandment 16: Not to persuade a single individual to worship [a false deity];
Negative Commandment 17: Not to love a mesit (one who proselytizes on behalf of a false deity);
Negative Commandment 18: Not to reduce one's hatred for him;
Negative Commandment 19: Not to save his life;
Negative Commandment 20: Not to advance any arguments on his behalf;
Negative Commandment 21: Not to withhold information that will lead to his conviction;
Halacha 1
A person who proselytizes [a mesit] to any single Jew [a musat] - whether man or woman - on behalf of false deities should be stoned to death. [This applies] even if neither the mesit or the musat actually worshiped the false deity.
As long as he instructed him to worship [the false deity], he should be executed by stoning, regardless of whether the mesit was a prophet or an ordinary person, or whether the musat was a single individual - man or woman - or whether several people were proselytized.
Halacha 2
A person who proselytizes the majority of the inhabitants of a city is called a madiach rather than a mesit. If the person who leads the majority of a city astray is a prophet, he is executed by stoning, and the people who were led astray are judged as individuals, and are not considered to be inhabitants of an עיר הנדחת. [For the latter laws to be applied,] two people must proselytize them.
If a person says: "A false deity told me: 'Serve me,'" or "The Holy One, blessed be He, told me: 'Serve a false deity'" - he is considered a prophet who leads others astray. If the majority of the city's inhabitants are swayed by his words, he should be stoned to death.
A mesit should be stoned to death whether he proselytizes in plural terms or in singular. What is implied? He is considered a mesit if he tells a colleague, "I will worship a false deity. [Follow me.] I will go and worship..." or "Let us go and worship following the particular rite with which that deity is served," "I will slaughter. [Follow me.] I will go and slaughter..." or "Let us go and slaughter," "I will bring a burnt offering. [Follow me.] I will go and bring a burnt offering..." or "Let us go and bring a burnt offering," "I will offer a libation. [Follow me.] I will go and offer a libation..." or "Let us go and offer a libation," or "I will bow down. [Follow me.] I will go and bow down..." or "Let us go and bow down."
When a person proselytizes two individuals, they may serve as witnesses against him. They should summon him to court and testify against him, relating what he told them, and the mesit is stoned.
Halacha 3
A mesit does not need a warning.
If one proselytizes a single individual, the latter should tell him, "I have friends who would also be interested in this," and thus he should lure him into proselytizing before two people, so that the mesit can be executed.
If the mesit refuses to proselytize before two people, it is a mitzvah to set a trap for him. A trap is never set for a person who violates any of the Torah's other prohibitions. This is the only exception.
How is the trap set for him? The musat should bring two people and place them in a dark place where they can see the mesit and hear what he is saying without his seeing them. He tells the mesit: "Repeat what you told me privately."
[When] he does so, the musat should reply: "How can we forsake our God in heaven and serve wood and stone?" If [the mesit] retracts or remains silent, he is not held liable. If he tells him, "This is our obligation and this is beneficial to us," those who stand far off have him summoned to court and stoned.
Halacha 4
It is a mitzvah for the musat to kill [the mesit], as [Deuteronomy 13:10] states: "Your hand must be the first against him to kill him."
It is forbidden for the musat to love the mesit, as [the previous verse states]: "Do not be attracted to him." Since [Exodus 23:5] states with regard to an enemy: "You must surely help him," [the question arises:] Perhaps you should help a mesit? The Torah [Deuteronomy, ibid.] teaches, "Do not... listen to him."
Since [Leviticus 19:16] teaches: "Do not stand idly over your brother's blood," [the question arises:] Perhaps you should not stand idly over a mesit's blood? The Torah teaches, [Deuteronomy, ibid.] "Do not let your eyes pity him."
The musat is forbidden to advance any arguments on his behalf, as [the verse continues,] "Do not show him any compassion." If he knows incriminating evidence, he is not permitted to remain silent, as [the verse continues,] "Do not try to cover up for him."
What is the verse which serves as a warning against a common person proselytizing as a mesit? "And all Israel will hear and they will become afraid [and they will not continue to do such evil things]" (Deuteronomy 13:12).
Halacha 5
[The following rules apply to] a person who proselytizes others by telling them to worship him: Should he tell them: "Worship me," and they worship him, he should be stoned. If they did not worship him, even though they accepted and agreed to his statements, he is not liable for stoning.
In contrast, if he proselytizes by telling them to worship another man or another false deity, [different rules apply:] If they accept his statements and say, "We will go and worship," even if they have not actually worshiped, both of them - the mesit and the musat - should be stoned. [Deuteronomy 13:9] states: "Do not be attracted to him or listen to him." Thus, if one was attracted and listened, one is held liable.
Halacha 6
What is meant by [the expression,] a prophet who prophesies in the name of false gods? A person who says: "This false deity or this star told me that we are commanded to do such and such or to refrain from doing so." [This applies] even when he stated the law accurately, labeling the impure as impure and the pure as pure.
If a warning was given to him [beforehand], he is executed by strangulation, as [Deuteronomy 18:20] states: "And one who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die." The warning against this [transgression] is included in the statement, [Exodus 23:13:] "And you shall not mention the name of other gods."
Halacha 7
It is forbidden to enter into a discussion or a debate with one who prophesies in the name of a false deity. We may not ask him to perform a sign or wonder, and if he does so on his own accord, we should pay no attention to it nor think about it.Whoever contemplates about the wonders [he performed, thinking], "Perhaps they are true," violates a negative commandment, as [Deuteronomy 13:4] states: "Do not listen to the words of that prophet."
Similarly, a false prophet should be executed by strangulation. [He is to be executed] although he speaks in the name of God and neither adds to nor diminishes [the mitzvot], as [Deuteronomy 18:20] states: "However, the prophet who dares to speak a matter in My name which I did not command - that prophet shall die."
Halacha 8
[The category of] a false prophet includes:
a) one who "prophesies" regarding something that was never heard through prophetic vision;
b) one who "prophesies" about a subject which he heard from another prophet, saying that this prophecy was given to him.
[Both of these individuals] are to be executed by strangulation.
Halacha 9
Anyone who refrains from executing a false prophet because of the latter's [spiritual] level, [as expressed by] his adherence to the paths of prophecy, violates a negative commandment, as [Deuteronomy 18:22] states: "Do not fear him." Similarly, included within [the scope of the prohibition:] "Do not fear him" are one who withholds incriminating testimony against [a false prophet] and one who is afraid or in awe of his words.
A false prophet may be tried only by the [supreme] court of 71 judges.
Halacha 10
A person who makes a vow or takes an oath in the name of a false deity is [liable for] lashes, as [Exodus 23:13] states: "And you shall not mention the name of other gods."
[This applies] both to one who takes such an oath for his own reasons and to one who takes such an oath because of a gentile. It is forbidden to have a gentile take an oath on his deity. It is even forbidden to mention the name of a gentile deity without any connection to an oath, as [implied by the expression], "You shall not mention."
Halacha 11
A person should not tell a colleague: "Wait for me near a particular false deity," or the like.
It is permitted to mention the name of any false deity that is mentioned in the Bible - e.g., Peor, Ba'al, Nevo, Gad, and the like. It is forbidden to cause others to take oaths or vows in the name of false deities. [In regard to all these prohibitions,] the only [transgressor] liable for lashes is one who [himself] makes a vow or an oath in the name [of a false deity].
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The text on this page contains sacred literature. Please do not deface or discard.
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Well, actually... Paul did try to convert Jews. The christian gospels say to "go first to the Jew". Paul did try to convert Jews and retried. But he failed and therefore started to convert the non-Jews after.
How was he an infiltrator when he actually did try to convert Jews?
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Well, actually... Paul did try to convert Jews. The christian gospels say to "go first to the Jew". Paul did try to convert Jews and retried. But he failed and therefore started to convert the non-Jews after.
How was he an infiltrator when he actually did try to convert Jews?
I personally think he was a Roman... I also wonder if the early Christians were trying to convert religious Jews or the lost sheep?
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Speaking as a Catholic layman here- there was always a distinction between the followers of the Old Law and the New Law. Or what we call Torah and Gospel. Anciently the hostility of the Christians and Jews is based upon a misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Messiah on the part of both Christians and Jews themselves. As the Christian Religion is an evolving Religion and the continuation of the Jewish Religion- the two Religions are one and the same but seen from vastly different contexts and Covenants- it is the case of the younger becoming the superior of the older. Or the Old Religion must give way to the New Religion- but the followers of the Old Religion will still exist and have something to say to the followers of the New Religion. Christians believe that a remnant of Israel (i.e. Jews- but converts to Christianity or Torah Jews? I think it's the latter.) will survive to see the Second Coming.
I'm not trying to make converts. Being a Catholic is not an easy process. :P :dance: I don't like the Jewish-Messianics or the Christian-Zionists. Either one is a Jew or a Christian or a confused half-caste. I respect religious Jews entirely as the keepers of the Torah. One day we'll find out. Till then keep up the Good Fight! :dance:
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Found Jews for Judaism on YouTube.... These guys have done a lot of research in order to answer the heretic Christian who tries to convert you...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akWlxKc1mHE
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Found Jews for Judaism on YouTube.... These guys have done a lot of research in order to answer the heretic Christian who tries to convert you...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akWlxKc1mHE
Very good video, I love Rabbi Skobac.
Wow messianics are soo silly. Just hearing them sing is as ridiculous as "the feel good kumyaya" campfire songs. I unfortunately attended one of those campfires when I started college and had to go to a "retreat" as part of the freshman orientation. Messianics and kumbaya evangelicals are one and the same.
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Btw, have you seen the debates by Rabbi Tovia Singer.
I was watching this one, and I must say- The pastor's "I don't know" at the end of the video says it all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS3ibVyc1B0
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http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,67861.0.html
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http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,67861.0.html
Two (if not more) things are completely clear:
1) The Christian Messiah is clearly not the Jewish Moshiach.
2) The Christian god is clearly not the Jewish G-d.
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Two (if not more) things are completely clear:
1) The Christian Messiah is clearly not the Jewish Moshiach.
2) The Christian god is clearly not the Jewish G-d.
Muman, I am not an expert on the Temple sacrificial system...but I am getting a new theory. Basically, there were different types of sacrifices in the Temple. And different types of animals were used. From bulls to goats to sheep, to doves etc.. Not just a "lamb" but I think the christian tradition is to say "lamb of G-d" based on the Pesach sacrifice.
Anyways, I was pondering the topic, as I was studing Torah...and just happened to have been reading about the sacrifices. And I don't have the best memory but the sacrificial system was never about slaughter an animal and you're saved.
It was a complicated process. Including the sprinkling of the blood, burning the insides of the animal. And depending on the type of sacrifice, what the Kohanim would be able to partake in.
But then you get the Christian messiah theory, in which one man becomes the ultimate sacrifice. However, in Judaism- sacrifice is meaningless unless one has repentance. Let's say one person "dies" for everyone's sins....all people of the world. However, if such people had no repentance, there is no valid sacrifice.
Another point, how does one person dying on a cross fulfill the sacrificial system in the first place? The sacrificed animal is taken to the temple and IN the temple at the altar is sacrificed. It's blood must be sprinkled there. That is the sacrificial system. Not a vicarious human sacrifice... any type of sacrifice NOT done inside the temple.
Otherwise, why would Hashem even set all the rules about how to do sacrifices, if He is just going to change His mind and break His own laws and suddenly, make a permissible sacrifice be 1) non animal and 2) not inside the temple- devoid of the entire sacrificial process.
Does this make any sense?
I hope I don't get in trouble, but this IS the Torah section. Hope no one is offended.
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Muman, I am not an expert on the Temple sacrificial system...but I am getting a new theory. Basically, there were different types of sacrifices in the Temple. And different types of animals were used. From bulls to goats to sheep, to doves etc.. Not just a "lamb" but I think the christian tradition is to say "lamb of G-d" based on the Pesach sacrifice.
Anyways, I was pondering the topic, as I was studing Torah...and just happened to have been reading about the sacrifices. And I don't have the best memory but the sacrificial system was never about slaughter an animal and you're saved.
It was a complicated process. Including the sprinkling of the blood, burning the insides of the animal. And depending on the type of sacrifice, what the Kohanim would be able to partake in.
But then you get the Christian messiah theory, in which one man becomes the ultimate sacrifice. However, in Judaism- sacrifice is meaningless unless one has repentance. Let's say one person "dies" for everyone's sins....all people of the world. However, if such people had no repentance, there is no valid sacrifice.
Another point, how does one person dying on a cross fulfill the sacrificial system in the first place? The sacrificed animal is taken to the temple and IN the temple at the altar is sacrificed. It's blood must be sprinkled there. That is the sacrificial system. Not a vicarious human sacrifice... any type of sacrifice NOT done inside the temple.
Otherwise, why would Hashem even set all the rules about how to do sacrifices, if He is just going to change His mind and break His own laws and suddenly, make a permissible sacrifice be 1) non animal and 2) not inside the temple- devoid of the entire sacrificial process.
Does this make any sense?
I hope I don't get in trouble, but this IS the Torah section. Hope no one is offended.
To me, Jesus would have been a human sacrifice... Hashem is against this right? So it makes no sense?
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Two (if not more) things are completely clear:
1) The Christian Messiah is clearly not the Jewish Moshiach.
2) The Christian god is clearly not the Jewish G-d.
Keep in mind that the present incarnation of the Jewish Religion descends from what the Gospel calls the "scribes and Pharisees." Also keep in mind that Jesus had believers in the Sanhedrin itself, i.e. Nicodemus. When the Romans, under Titus and Vespasian, destroyed Jerusalem in the year 70 of the present era the final split between the Christians and Jews, in religious terms, took place. After this the centers of the Christian Religion shifted to cities like Alexandria, Antioch, Damascus, Rome, etc. The center of the Jewish Religion, of course, remains in the ancestral city of Jerusalem.
It's not a well-understood historical topic to be honest. That is the split that caused Christians to separate from Jews in a religious sense. I'm not speaking of what Christians and Jews believe religiously but in a historical sense- although that might be an interesting topic for a spiritually-related thread. :)
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I think Paul had a lot to do with that. He wanted to witness to Jews but he failed at it. He once wrote he had enough of trying with Jews and decided to start going to the Gentiles. Of course, the Gentiles did not want to do circumcision nor live by the 613 laws (plus added Gentile beliefs and traditions) into the mix, thus creating a different type of Christianity.
The "Torah observant Jews" who believed in J as the messiah did not have a concept of a Trinity and believed that J was subordinate to the "Father", and were called Nazarenes. They died out, and were replaced by what would later become recognizable Christianity.
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I think Paul had a lot to do with that. He wanted to witness to Jews but he failed at it. He once wrote he had enough of trying with Jews and decided to start going to the Gentiles. Of course, the Gentiles did not want to do circumcision nor live by the 613 laws (plus added Gentile beliefs and traditions) into the mix, thus creating a different type of Christianity.
The "Torah observant Jews" who believed in J as the messiah did not have a concept of a Trinity and believed that J was subordinate to the "Father", and were called Nazarenes. They died out, and were replaced by what would later become recognizable Christianity.
St. Paul had less to do with with anything than might be realized. By his own admission, according to the Christian Writings, he belonged to the party of the Pharisees. After the death of St. Stephen St. Paul had some kind of conversion experience.
The Jewish Religion is respectable in that it contains the seeds of the Trinity. For example when Moses received the Commandments on Mt. Sinai he was not speaking to the Father but the Son. The Father cannot be understood by human perceptions- so He sent the Son to bring good news.
The Jewish Religion believes in the Father; the Christian Religion believes in the Son.
I hope I make some sense. I'm not trying to make fun of Judaism of course!
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The 'Trinity' is an idolatrous belief and runs counter to Judaism. We reject completely any 'Trinity' of Hashem.
Our most intimate prayer, the Shema, affirms the UNITY and INDIVISIBLE nature of our G-d. Pagans have believed in a partnership of G-ds which was assumed by the Christian cult. It is the primary reason Jews will ultimately reject the belief in your so-called Messiah.
He was not Moshiach, and he was not G-d, and he (or his followers) led to a lot of problems in this world.
I cannot believe you are writing about such things here in the Torah section... I will kindly request you think about suggesting that there is a connection between Jewish belief and the belief in a 'trinity' of gods...
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Hashem is One, indivisible and infinite... The Jewish belief in Hashem is borne from a direct command given at Mount Sinai. He said directly to the Jewish people that he is the ONLY G-d, there are no three parts of G-d. The 13 principles of faith according to Rambam clearly makes a division of G-d as a father, a son, and a ghost as ridiculous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlD-zWa0ODc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgA6gyv2ICE
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The Jewish Religion is respectable in that it contains the seeds of the Trinity. For example when Moses received the Commandments on Mt. Sinai he was not speaking to the Father but the Son.
However, can you provide proof that Moshe Rabbeinu was speaking to the "son"? Who said it was the son?
When G-d spoke to Moshe, He was very specific. G-d told Moshe "I AM" "I AM has sent you"- not "we are". Hashem was specific to let Moshe know that He is the G-d of Avraham Avinu, of Isaac and Yacov. The G-d of your fathers. And He said "I AM".
Furthermore, no part of Jewish scripture ever hints to any form of trinity beliefs. Indeed the early Christians did not have a concept of the trinity. Up until the Council of Nicea. Early church fathers did not have the concept either, such as Origen. It was very common before the council of Nicea for Christians to have a belief that "the son is subordinate to the Father", so while early Christians believed that he was the messiah, and son- they did not believe that he was a trinitarial entity. Not by a good couple years after that.
To prove this point further, the gospels (who were aimed at showing the son was subordinate to the father) depict Jeshu before his arrest asking his father to change what he had to do. So.... G-d is pleading with himself here? G-d forsake himself (when J was dying). For the reason that I mentioned, early Christians did not believe in a trinity until much much later. The gospels were written way before the council of nicea.
Lastly, what is the "Holy Spirit". G-d is not human, He is like a spirit and yet He is also another spirit that is Him at the same time. That concept, I have never been able to understand. I know the Christian response to it, to the "read about the Spirit of G-d in the Jewish bible" but that is not a separate entity. There are other Christian teachings that claim that the trinity can be found in the Jewish Bible. But even things as us "let us make man in our image" have been dispelled by Christian scholars.
The name of G-d that starts with an E and is "plural" is also dispelled as not meaning a "compound unity godhead". Hashem said that He is only G-d and He shares His glory with no one.
But you are saying that the G-d who gave the Torah at Mt. Sinai was J? Can you prove this out of Hebrew scripture sources?
My biggest question in discussing the trinity besides the "I AM" is...did J fear himself? Because one of the teachings about Moshiach is that he will be a man who will fear G-d. Yet if G-d was His own son, did He fear himself?
I am keeping it purely on the topic of Trinity and Paul. So I won't touch other topics.
The gospels, Matthew was aimed at converting Jews- but it had so many mistranslations of the Jewish bible- that it failed at converting Jews. Here is where we see lack of verses or misrepresented verses. Paul, however, was more successful. If we recall, J said to go to the Jews first. That is what the Nazarene tried to do. Paul could not get masses of Jews to convert, but he was easily getting masses of Gentiles to convert.
Rabbi Tovia Singer, one of my teachers, explains in detail the aim of Paul and how the Jewish scriptures do not support a trinitarian concept. He lays down the exact verses in the Jewish bible that have been mistranslated:
Trinity:
http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_the_trinity_mp3.html (http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_the_trinity_mp3.html)
Paul and corruption of the Jewish scriptures:
http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_paul_mp3.html (http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_paul_mp3.html)
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You guys, I don't want this to become a Judaism vs. Christianity debate. We Jews believe in Judaism from the Torah and Talmud. The Christians believe in the NT as a continuation of the Tanach. So I don't want this degenerating into a thread about how "my religion is better than yours."
The subject of when Christianity separated from Judaism, and the resulting differences between the two religions could be the subject of entire books or forums. So if you guys want to continue the discussion, either do it via private messages or off the forum completely.
Otherwise, I'm locking this thread.
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You guys, I don't want this to become a Judaism vs. Christianity debate. We Jews believe in Judaism from the Torah and Talmud. The Christians believe in the NT as a continuation of the Tanach. So I don't want this degenerating into a thread about how "my religion is better than yours."
The subject of when Christianity separated from Judaism, and the resulting differences between the two religions could be the subject of entire books or forums. So if you guys want to continue the discussion, either do it via private messages or off the forum completely.
Otherwise, I'm locking this thread.
Gotta say I am quite disappointed with this response. I would have thought that a Torah and Jewish Idea section of any Jewish forum would not suppress this discussion. And the discussion has been primarily aimed at the claims made by missionaries attempting to convert Jews.
I do not know any Christian forum which would try to stifle the discussion of their theology...
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Gotta say I am quite disappointed with this response. I would have thought that a Torah and Jewish Idea section of any Jewish forum would not suppress this discussion. And the discussion has been primarily aimed at the claims made by missionaries attempting to convert Jews.
I do not know any Christian forum which would try to stifle the discussion of their theology...
Look, I haven't locked the thread, and I won't do so as long as the discussion is civil. The problem is that these types of threads usually end up with bickering members, regardless of what section of the forum they're on, which I don't want to see. Now it's fine if someone wants to post about Jewish beliefs, and how we don't believe in dividing up G-d into different parts, or making him into a man.
But everyone, please keep it respectful.
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Look, I haven't locked the thread, and I won't do so as long as the discussion is civil. The problem is that these types of threads usually end up with bickering members, regardless of what section of the forum they're on, which I don't want to see. Now it's fine if someone wants to post about Jewish beliefs, and how we don't believe in dividing up G-d into different parts, or making him into a man.
But everyone, please keep it respectful.
Lisa, I realize you are doing what is considered best for the forum. I do not want to argue about theology with non-Jews. It is pointless and it is not essential for the Jewish mission to convert everyone to believe what we believe. But there are some things which Jews must stand strong against, and this is one of them...
I will respect your wishes, and the best interest of the forum, and attempt to avoid these kinds of discussions. As everyone knows I feel that it is important to keep the Jewish people Jewish, and point out that there are those who are willing to trick them into believing that they are observing Judaism while engaging in beliefs which our sages saw as heresy...
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Lisa, I understand that you have to keep the peace no argument there. I am sorry that you got the impression that this turned into a "what region is better". No one implied this.
However, everything was ok until we got the post that says that the trnity is seeded in the Jewish bible. I understand that Christians can express their love for their faith in the General Discussion section...but to do it in the Torah section? How else were we supposed to reply to such a clam, that speaks aout our Biblle.If we are not allowed to respond to thhese type of claims (that missionaries use) in our very own Torah section...then wiith all due respect maybe it should be locked then. We made our point regarding the trinity and the Jewish bible.
However, perhaps the Christian members can be a little more sensitive when they post in the Torah section in the future, so this will not happen again. To post such claims about the trinity and Judaism and then tel us that it was J who spoke to us at Mt. Sinai is a very bold claim for the Torah section. I have no problem with Saxon but I don't understand how someone could make such claim and then be offended by our reples.
I mean no harm or disrespect to anyone. I'll drop it but again ask people of other religions to PLEASE be be double check what they post in the Torah section.
thank you
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Lisa, I realize you are doing what is considered best for the forum. I do not want to argue about theology with non-Jews. It is pointless and it is not essential for the Jewish mission to convert everyone to believe what we believe. But there are some things which Jews must stand strong against, and this is one of them...
I will respect your wishes, and the best interest of the forum, and attempt to avoid these kinds of discussions. As everyone knows I feel that it is important to keep the Jewish people Jewish, and point out that there are those who are willing to trick them into believing that they are observing Judaism while engaging in beliefs which our sages saw as heresy...
OK, I'm looking now, and everything looks OK. Carry on, I guess.
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Lisa, I understand that you have to keep the peace no argument there. I am sorry that you got the impression that this turned into a "what region is better". No one implied this.
However, everything was ok until we got the post that says that the trnity is seeded in the Jewish bible. I understand that Christians can express their love for their faith in the General Discussion section...but to do it in the Torah section? How else were we supposed to reply to such a clam, that speaks aout our Biblle.If we are not allowed to respond to thhese type of claims (that missionaries use) in our very own Torah section...then wiith all due respect maybe it should be locked then. We made our point regarding the trinity and the Jewish bible.
However, perhaps the Christian members can be a little more sensitive when they post in the Torah section in the future, so this will not happen again. To post such claims about the trinity and Judaism and then tel us that it was J who spoke to us at Mt. Sinai is a very bold claim for the Torah section. I have no problem with Saxon but I don't understand how someone could make such claim and then be offended by our reples.
I mean no harm or disrespect to anyone. I'll drop it but again ask people of other religions to PLEASE be be double check what they post in the Torah section.
thank you
OK Israeli Heart, I see where you're coming from. (I thought Saxon was posting about how Moses spoke to the son on Mt. Sinai, which I didn't understand.)
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I think this type of discussion is good, Jews need to have it rammed into their heads that there is only one G-d. Some Christians may wonder how their religion got so far from Judaism, and they need to know the truth. If Christians don't want to know the truth, they shouldn't read this section.
I'm Noachide, it's my job. :::D
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I hope I was not rude to anyone though.
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I hope I was not rude to anyone though.
I didn't think you were at all, you spoke the truth! Also great links.
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You guys, I don't want this to become a Judaism vs. Christianity debate. We Jews believe in Judaism from the Torah and Talmud. The Christians believe in the NT as a continuation of the Tanach. So I don't want this degenerating into a thread about how "my religion is better than yours."
The subject of when Christianity separated from Judaism, and the resulting differences between the two religions could be the subject of entire books or forums. So if you guys want to continue the discussion, either do it via private messages or off the forum completely.
Otherwise, I'm locking this thread.
I respect Jews who follow Judaism- like Rebbe Kahane and his students and not, say, Jews who want to be Christians like the "Jews for Jesus" crowd. Likewise I hold in contempt Christians who want to become Jews or follow the Torah and not the Gospel. These religious hybrids only sow confusion within their respective Jewish and Christian communities because they engage in religious deception.
I am in disgust of political Jews inasmuch as I am disgusted by political Catholics. Snakes. Vipers.
Jesus says "A man cannot serve two masters." I serve my religion- and make no demands of Jews to serve or submit to Catholicism. It's undignified. Gross. Evil. I will oppose any so-called Christian who tries to subject religious Jews to Christianity- but also vice-versa. :)
Outside of public discourse Catholics have no ability to influence Judaism. Anciently Catholicism has always held Judaism to be an independent religion that the clergy has no influence over.
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Please spare us Saxon Marauder... You know as well as we do what the 'Catholic' church did to the Jewish people through-out history.... I hope you were just making an ignorant comment and not attempting to white-wash history.
And may I ask what is your intention with the 'nic' of 'Saxon Marauder'? The last time I took a history class was about 25 years ago but I did look it up. It seems odd to me your selection of that name in light of this information:
After a bloody struggle that lasted thirty years (772-804), the Saxons were finally brought under Frankish supremacy by the great Frankish ruler, Charlemagne. The earliest date at which it can be proved that Charlemagne had the conquest of the Saxon districts in view is 776. Charlemagne was also able to win them to Christianity, the Saxons being the last German tribe that still held persistently to belief in the Germanic gods. At different times the Saxon wars of Charlemagne have been called "religious wars." The assertion, which cannot be proved, has been made that Pope Adrian I had called upon Charlemagne to convert the Saxons by force. Charlemagne's campaigns were intended mainly to punish the Saxons for their annual marauding expeditions to the Rhine, in which they burned churches and monasteries, killed the priests, and sacrificed their prisoners of war to the gods. At the same time it is true that various measures taken by Charlemagne, as the execution of 4500 Saxons at Verden in 782 and the hard laws issued to the subjugated, were shortsighted and cruel.
It was believed that if peace was to be permanent the overthrow of the Saxons must be accompanied by their conversion to Christianity. The work of converting Saxony was given to St. Sturmi, who was on terms of friendship with Charlemagne, and the monks of the monastery of Fulda founded by Sturmi. Among the successful missionaries were also St. Willehad, the first Bishop of Bremen, and his Anglo-Saxon companions. After St. Sturmi's death (779) the country of the Saxons was divided into missionary districts, and each of these placed under a Frankish bishop. Parishes were established within the old judicial districts. With the generous aid of Charlemagne and his nobles large numbers of churches and monasteries were founded, and as soon as peace and quiet had been re-established in the different districts, permanent dioceses were founded.
Does it seem to you that the Saxon's willingly accepted the imposed 'conversion' to Catholicism? 4500 were slain by Charlemagne. Indeed the Saxons were originally 'marauding' barbarians to the church...
The Catholic church has a lot of blood on it's hands, both Jewish and other religions...
Nobody here wants to convert you... Just keep the crazy lunatics of the Mel Gibson variety in check and things will be ok...
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Please spare us Saxon Marauder... You know as well as we do what the 'Catholic' church did to the Jewish people through-out history.... I hope you were just making an ignorant comment and not attempting to white-wash history.
Being that my ancestors were Sephardic Jews who suffered greatly by the Inquisition that the catholic church propogated against Jews in Spain, when I think of catholicism, I usually picture this: (please be warned, there are some graphic scenes in the video- BUT it is NOTHING compared to what happened in real life) In this scene, some "Conversos" who were forced-converts to catholicism but were found to be secretly praciticing Judaism are being burned at the stake. Before being burned alive, some were offered to "repent" and be spared of the fire by being stragled. We can see that these people being burned were saying the Shema before dying, one becomes afraid and "accepts" absolution but it killed by the "garrote". Some brotherly love indeed.
http://youtu.be/J1UjTVqF_mA
It's just the mental image I get. I have met some really nice Catholics in my days, I have also met some (pre-Vatican II) types who were very mean. But that's true even for protestants. I believe it was Pope John Paul II, who apologized to all Jews for the many atrocities of the church. Ok, that was nice to recognize it. But the point I am making is that...
When a man kills another- is saying sorry good enough? Is there not a penalty or a death sentence? We realize how many Jews were killed by the Catholic church in sooo many years. Is saying "we are sorry" just going to wipe the killings away? Do we not think that Hashem serves punishment for the blood spilled?
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Being that my ancestors were Sephardic Jews who suffered greatly by the Inquisition that the catholic church propogated against Jews in Spain, when I think of catholicism, I usually picture this: (please be warned, there are some graphic scenes in the video- BUT it is NOTHING compared to what happened in real life) In this scene, some "Conversos" who were forced-converts to catholicism but were found to be secretly praciticing Judaism are being burned at the stake. Before being burned alive, some were offered to "repent" and be spared of the fired by being stragled. We can see that these people being burned were saying the Shema before dying, one becomes afraid and "accepts" absolution but it killed by the "garrote". Some brotherly love indeed.
http://youtu.be/J1UjTVqF_mA
It's just the mental image I get. I have met some really nice Catholics in my days, I have also met some (pre-Vatican II) types who were very mean. But that's true even for protestants. I believe it was Pope John Paul II, who apologized to all Jews for the many atrocities of the church. Ok, that was nice to recognize it. But the point I am making is that...
When a man kills another- is saying sorry good enough? Is there not a penalty or a death sentence? We realize how many Jews were killed by the Catholic church in sooo many years. Is saying "we are sorry" just going to wipe the killings away? Do we not think that Hashem serves punishment for the blood spilled?
Well since it is impossible to bring back the dead what more is there to do for the church but to apologize and work towards better relations moving forward... If Hashem is serving punishment to the ones who deserve it so be it.
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Well since it is impossible to bring back the dead
Well, technically speaking...when Moshiach comes, the dead will rise :)
But anyways, the inquisition is the picture I get of the church. To others it may be the holocaust, others the pogroms etc..etc..
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Well, technically speaking...when Moshiach comes, the dead will rise :)
But anyways, the inquisition is the picture I get of the church. To others it may be the holocaust, others the pogroms etc..etc..
Well I don't know that the church was responsible for the holocaust but that's another story... I am sure besides religious were some political motivations to some of this as well... It's good to be informed of the past but I think it's more important to see what's up ahead... I might be like an old horse with blinders on but it seems to me the present day dangers for the Jewish people are coming from places other than Rome.
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I didn't say the church itself created the holocaust. But the perpretators of the holocaust were of christian religions. Catholic or Protestant. Regardless of the 3rd Reich trying to be pagan or atheist.. The culture of Europe was one where the majority was Christian and had been used to hundreds of years where it was allowed to do pogroms against Jews. Where it was allowed for (catholics and protestants) to go to Jewish villages and kill people just for being Jewish. I mean in almost every European city (catholic or protestant) there was some type of anti-Semitic historical event. You can search for Orleans France, Lancashire, Oslo, Madrid, Krakow, St. Petersburg etc..etc.. and in every history of the city there will be some "Anti-Semitism in..."
Hundreds and hundreds of years or murder ALL lead up to the ultimate act of massive murder of the Holocaust.
In Judaism, however, there is a teaching. And that is to NEVER be afraid of anyone- of anything. Only be afraid of G-d. There is also a teaching that says about Israel "Your destroyers come from within". I am not afraid of Rome and am not afraid of some anti-Semitic cardinals who proclaim that Gaza is like the concentration camp or a Ghetto. I'll never be afraid of them, only of Hashem. They are only a threat if we anger G-d. However, there is a history of the Christian churches that is a sad one. One that hurts. Fortunately, times have changed and while I obviously don't hate the Christians of today (because they are not responsible for the atrocities of their ancestors) I am still going to remember the past and honor my ancestor's memories for the suffering they went through.
My only problem today are with Christians who are anti-Semitic (the pre-Vatican II types like Mel Gibsons father), the pro-fakestine liberal Christians and the missionary Christians who go to Jewish neighborhoods to try to destroy souls.
All others I have no problem with. But I think it is understandable for me to have some hurt pain knowing about the Inquisition and what my own blood went through in the past, even if it was a long time ago.
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Paul created Christianity Jesus was just into reinterpretation of Judaism alot less so then modern deformed and some Conservatives.If he lived today he would be Just another Jewish Rabbi who no Jew would complain about.
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Paul created Christianity Jesus was just into reinterpretation of Judaism alot less so then modern deformed and some Conservatives.If he lived today he would be Just another Jewish Rabbi who no Jew would complain about.
I strongly disagree with this statement mord. Both Reform and Conservative reject the 'trinity' and the idea that a man could be G-d, and that he was Moshiach. Maybe they are similar in that they reject the divinity of the Scripture and disregard the 613 mitzvot. But I was Bar Mitzvahed in Conservative shul and it is NOTHING like Christianity.
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Paul created Christianity Jesus was just into reinterpretation of Judaism alot less so then modern deformed and some Conservatives.If he lived today he would be Just another Jewish Rabbi who no Jew would complain about.
No Jew would complain about? Huh? Maybe not the politically correct Jews, yea I agree with that but he did do things very anti-Jewish and against the Torah. He also went back and forth at times saying one thing and then another thing (the opposite).
for example he publicly desecrated Shabbat even though their was no need to (like a life risk) and then he said to follow the laws of Shabbat and follow the Pharasis (Rabbis). So definitely a confused individual.
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He was giving an example like dovid did when he took the challah from the the ahron HaKodesh.He was Just agasinst the rich Jews who didn't care about the poor.Many people say he was an essene ,but others claim he himself was pharrisse.In any event Paul caused the trouble Does this sound like a self hating Jew http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080613120536AAA1w6f
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What is the significance of Jesus' reference to Gentiles as dogs?
The story is told in Matthew 15:21-28 and Mark 7:24-30. In it he refuses to exorcise the daughter of a Syro-Phoenician woman, a Gentile, referring to her as a dog, while there are still Jews to cater for; he only relents when the mother begs for scraps like a dog.
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Yes, that's sad, but Jesus indeed never liked Gentiles. He considered them like dogs
and pigs. Interesting that he did cure that woman's daughter but because he recognised her condition of dog and would be happy with the crumbs from the table of the masters.
Also when he was delivering the Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, he warned them not to give what's holy to the dogs or cast their pearls before swine. That's in Matthew 7:6. Obviously, if he was talking to the Jews, he was talking about the Gentiles.
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Did anyone watch the videos? ???
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Mord just because jesus called gentiles "dogs" and other such negative things doesn't make him a good Jew.
1) We as Jews don't consider someone or refer to someone as a "dog" or such just because he is a gentile and we generally respect different people. Now if they are an enemy like the Arab-Nazis of today I have no problem and I do refer to them as dogs.
2 That (even if you somehow equate him being some "right-wing" nationalistic Jew still doesn't take away the fact that he did some things against Jewish law and even he admitted it and in other places he said to follow it. Soo he basically condemns himself. by his actions and his words.
and P.S. fyi I dont understand how any gentile can seriously look up to him after seeing the way he spoke about them. They should be more offended by him and his words then the Jews could ever be.
Also just to add to your comment, it would be like saying that someone who calls himself a Kahanist and makes extreme nationalistic statements but then advocates the eating of pork is a good Jew and on top of that a good Rabbi that no Jew can or should oppose.
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I think the NT was changed a lot by by Paul, Rome, ect. I don't think most of the stuff that is against Judaism came from him... When Jesus was alive it was a turbulent time for Israel, and yes, I do believe he didn't like Gentiles and Roman oppression.
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I think the NT was changed a lot by by Paul, Rome, ect. I don't think most of the stuff that is against Judaism came from him... When Jesus was alive it was a turbulent time for Israel, and yes, I do believe he didn't like Gentiles and Roman oppression.
Good point. And in fact, Rabbi Tovia Singer used a good quote to describe it. "Rome did not convert to Christianity but rather Christianity converted to Rome".
It was in the time of the Council of Nicaea (not in Rome itself but under the Roman Emperor Constantine) where a lot of current day Christian doctrine was decided. It was in this council where the Trinity officially became a foundation of the Christian faith. It was in this council where Chrisitian holidays were decided upon.
This paved the way for the books of the Christian bible to be included and which ones to be omitted. For example including the gospel of Matthew and excluding the gospel of Thomas and so on.
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Good point. And in fact, Rabbi Tovia Singer used a good quote to describe it. "Rome did not convert to Christianity but rather Christianity converted to Rome".
It was in the time of the Council of Nicaea (not in Rome itself but under the Roman Emperor Constantine) where a lot of current day Christian doctrine was decided. It was in this council where the Trinity officially became a foundation of the Christian faith. It was in this council where Chrisitian holidays were decided upon.
This paved the way for the books of the Christian bible to be included and which ones to be omitted. For example including the gospel of Matthew and excluding the gospel of Thomas and so on.
Exactly ma'am!
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Mord just because jesus called gentiles "dogs" and other such negative things doesn't make him a good Jew.
1) We as Jews don't consider someone or refer to someone as a "dog" or such just because he is a gentile and we generally respect different people. Now if they are an enemy like the Arab-Nazis of today I have no problem and I do refer to them as dogs.
2 That (even if you somehow equate him being some "right-wing" nationalistic Jew still doesn't take away the fact that he did some things against Jewish law and even he admitted it and in other places he said to follow it. Soo he basically condemns himself. by his actions and his words.
and P.S. fyi I dont understand how any gentile can seriously look up to him after seeing the way he spoke about them. They should be more offended by him and his words then the Jews could ever be.
Also just to add to your comment, it would be like saying that someone who calls himself a Kahanist and makes extreme nationalistic statements but then advocates the eating of pork is a good Jew and on top of that a good Rabbi that no Jew can or should oppose.
I agree with you i would never call most people dogs [although i like dogs] but at that time Israel was occupied every day the people had to live with terrible persecution,many people acted this way towards gentiles because they felt it was the source of their problems
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I agree with you i would never call most people dogs [although i like dogs] but at that time Israel was occupied every day the people had to live with terrible persecution,many people acted this way towards gentiles because they felt it was the source of their problems
How do you know if people did or did not act this way? At the same time people like Rabbi Akiva and the Rabbis of the Talmudh lived and they don't refer to gentiles as "dogs" soo why are you whitewashing the actions of jesus? Either way if this was the "savior" of the gentiles yet her refers to them like that, I personally would never look up to him especially if I was a gentile.
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The rabbis knew that the Romans came and ruled Israel as a punishment for Jews acting evil. Self-hating Jews that were descended from the Maccabees invited the Romans into Israel. It was baseless hatred (Jews hating other Jews, including self-hating Jews hating good Jews.) that was responsible for the Destruction of the Second Temple.
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Please spare us Saxon Marauder... You know as well as we do what the 'Catholic' church did to the Jewish people through-out history.... I hope you were just making an ignorant comment and not attempting to white-wash history.
And may I ask what is your intention with the 'nic' of 'Saxon Marauder'? The last time I took a history class was about 25 years ago but I did look it up. It seems odd to me your selection of that name in light of this information:
Does it seem to you that the Saxon's willingly accepted the imposed 'conversion' to Catholicism? 4500 were slain by Charlemagne. Indeed the Saxons were originally 'marauding' barbarians to the church...
The Catholic church has a lot of blood on it's hands, both Jewish and other religions...
Nobody here wants to convert you... Just keep the crazy lunatics of the Mel Gibson variety in check and things will be ok...
Charlemagne was actually good to the Jews in France at that time. Napoleon wanted to re-establish his empire. And Napoleon III also did. Napoleon was also good to the Jews. Napoleon III also was friendly with Jews and when he helped Maximillian take over Mexico, Jews were welcomed in Mexico. On the other hand, there are those that criticize Napoleon because he brought upon the beginning of assimilation.
LeHavdil, the Germans also claimed Charlemagne as their own so Hitler changed Napoleon and Napoleon III into the Kaisers ("Second Reich") and Nazi Germany ("Third Reich").
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Keep in mind that the present incarnation of the Jewish Religion descends from what the Gospel calls the "scribes and Pharisees." Also keep in mind that Jesus had believers in the Sanhedrin itself, i.e. Nicodemus.
The Sanhedrin was the highest power in Judaism. They were made of 70 rabbis. Anyone that believed in Yesh"u is not a rabbi so what you said makes no sense. The Sanhedrin comes from the Torah itself and derive power through Moses. What the Sanhedrin decided was and is the law for all Jews past and present.
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The rabbis knew that the Romans came and ruled Israel as a punishment for Jews acting evil. Self-hating Jews that were descended from the Maccabees invited the Romans into Israel. It was baseless hatred (Jews hating other Jews, including self-hating Jews hating good Jews.) that was responsible for the Destruction of the Second Temple.
The Rabbis made a stunning rebellion against the Romans as well. Baseless hatred is many times taken out of context and made into THE thing, especially after this whole galut. Their were different reasons including disunity and the fact that their were few in numbers compared to a huge Roman army. Despite that their were great victories + had those in Bavel (the majority) joined their would definitely have been independence from back then. + combine that to the different factions within Judea at the time. With the "Pharasees" being the mainstream who followed Torah Judaism with Rabbanim as its leaders, then the ruling elite (who worked with the Roman occupiers) and then the Essene sects who were basically hippies who ran away to the desert and didn't want to be involved in anything "worldly"- eventually they were killed anyway by the Romans despite the fact that they were "hippies". History repeats itself, sound familiar?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJEadEb8VGE
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Sometimes those fags leave CD's or DVD's so I break them in half and throw them away in a public trash can. And obviously I rip their papers. If they really think it's holy, they wouldn't give it to people that they know would destroy it.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TeOtzTaAco
That stupid woman mentions Isaiah 53. When I clicked the link to see it on YouTube, this video came up.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJEadEb8VGE
My gosh that chick was CLUELESS!! What pathetic and weak arguments. That's who they send to convert people? I would have a field day setting her straight.
Yes, BYPASS any house with a Mezuzah! They purposely target homes with mezuzot too. This only angers me more.
I rarely get mormons here and the occasional J's witnesses. I do not open my door to strangers anyways.
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:::D Aren't Chinese usually smart?
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Please spare us Saxon Marauder... You know as well as we do what the 'Catholic' church did to the Jewish people through-out history.... I hope you were just making an ignorant comment and not attempting to white-wash history.
And may I ask what is your intention with the 'nic' of 'Saxon Marauder'? The last time I took a history class was about 25 years ago but I did look it up. It seems odd to me your selection of that name in light of this information:
Does it seem to you that the Saxon's willingly accepted the imposed 'conversion' to Catholicism? 4500 were slain by Charlemagne. Indeed the Saxons were originally 'marauding' barbarians to the church...
The Catholic church has a lot of blood on it's hands, both Jewish and other religions...
Nobody here wants to convert you... Just keep the crazy lunatics of the Mel Gibson variety in check and things will be ok...
You do know the difference between an Anglo-Saxon and an Old Saxon? o_O The Anglo-Saxons, i.e. English, converted to Christianity a hell of a long time before the Old Saxons did. There is a territory in Germany called Saxony. They were still worshipping Odin and Thor and other demons when English missionaries- and missionaries from the Franks- converted them. :o