JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: muman613 on June 12, 2013, 01:07:55 AM
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I generally am completely against leaking government secrets. One reason is because I have worked for companies which required secret clearance and I know that government contractors do important work to make sure our country remains safe. I still stand against the Wiki-leakers and am trying to decide where I stand on this guy.
I am inclined to feel that he is a hero because it took a lot of guts and a lot of belief in what is right in order to sacrifice your life like he has done. This guy is now forced to flee and seek asylum from another nation to protect him from prosecution in America. I do believe that the NSA program is un-Constitutional because it violates the 4th Amendment which garuntees that a citizen will be safe from random search and seizure (a key concern of the Revolutionary government of America). I believe 'dragnets' are basically a violation of the intent of the Constitution.
Please decide and vote...
http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=105&load=8511
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I3VWX5MBg8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBddIKY69FU
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Manning was wrong about some things...
He (Snowden) was not making $200k.... I have heard he only made $120k a year.... I make more than that currently so I don't think that he had a 'cush' job... I would have thought he made more for having a top secret clearance.
It doesn't matter to me that he didn't have a College diploma. In my field it is possible to excel without a degree...
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http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/booz-allen-edward-snowden-nsa-leak-92568.html
Consulting firm Booz Allen Hamilton has fired Edward Snowden, the computer technician who acknowledged leaking classified documents to The Guardian and The Washington Post, the company announced.
Booz Allen on Tuesday morning also called into question one detail Snowden gave about himself when it updated a statement it released Sunday evening with a single sentence: “Snowden, who had a salary at the rate of $122,000, was terminated June 10, 2013, for violations of the firm’s code of ethics and firm policy,” the company said.
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I have a hunch on how this poll is going to go... ;D
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I don't like him, he is a libertarian/Rupaulian nut case. But he is neither hero nor traitor. I think exposing an illegal unconstitutional conspiracy by the government transcends the betrayal of secrecy in this case and it doesn't seem like he gave in any specific secrete but rather the general practice by the NSA to monitor everyone.
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I don't like him, he is a libertarian/Rupaulian nut case. But he is neither hero nor traitor. I think exposing an illegal unconstitutional conspiracy by the government transcends the betrayal of secrecy in this case and it doesn't seem like he gave in any specific secrete but rather the general practice by the NSA to monitor everyone.
I believe as Dr Manning stated, that he may have given over more information than was published. And also he must have more information which he may use as a 'ace in the hole' or a bargaining chip in the future...
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A total traitor. I would give him the death sentence, if I could. Why, you ask? Because he simply made it easier for another 9-11 to happen. He's made it harder to catch Jihadists before they kill.
By the way, they're collecting metadata, not the contents of your calls.
This is 2013, not 1776. I'm betting that the Framers wouldn't have any problem with this.
If there's another 9-11, how many will say, "You know, we didn't do all we could, did we?"
I think we should do all we can. This includes supporting programs like this.
Snowden should be caught and tried for treason.
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A total traitor. I would give him the death sentence, if I could. Why, you ask? Because he simply made it easier for another 9-11 to happen. He's made it harder to catch Jihadists before they kill.
By the way, they're collecting metadata, not the contents of your calls.
This is 2013, not 1776. I'm betting that the Framers wouldn't have any problem with this.
If there's another 9-11, how many will say, "You know, we didn't do all we could, did we?"
I think we should do all we can. This includes supporting programs like this.
Snowden should be caught and tried for treason.
By that reasoning, everyone in the country should agree to 24x7x365 surveillance. Then we stand an even greater chance to thwart another 9/11. And, if someone has nothing to hide, then what would be their objection?
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He should be sentenced to the Ecuadorian embassy in London for life with his fellow sodomite Julian Assange.
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A total traitor. I would give him the death sentence, if I could. Why, you ask? Because he simply made it easier for another 9-11 to happen. He's made it harder to catch Jihadists before they kill.
By the way, they're collecting metadata, not the contents of your calls.
This is 2013, not 1776. I'm betting that the Framers wouldn't have any problem with this.
If there's another 9-11, how many will say, "You know, we didn't do all we could, did we?"
I think we should do all we can. This includes supporting programs like this.
Snowden should be caught and tried for treason.
This argument is like the gun control argument. You know that the Government knew about the Tsarnav (sp?) brothers long before they planned their attack. They were on watch lists and were known to the govt... So why were they able to carry out their plan? Enhanced surveillance was not necessary for that... There are many other arguments which can be made which reveal that the inspection of every electronic communication is unnecessary in order to protect the country.
What you suggest, as HiWarp points out, would mean that a police officer could pull me over and search me for no reason other than to say he was looking for a terrorist. How long before all Kahanists are considered 'terrorists'? The word has no intrinsic meaning other than to cause others to be terrified... I do not want to live in a country where our freedoms are inpinged in order to maintain so-called security.
Look at the case of 9/11... It could have been prevented (without electronic spying) because all the terrorists were on watch lists and we knew about the first 911 plot (in 1993) which led to the 'Blind Sheiks' mosque, yet they were not stopped... Taking away the rights of Americans is exactly what the terrorists wanted in the first place... Next stop Sharia law..
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He is a hero! G-d bless him! The information he exposed was in our best interest and he only exposed it to U.S. citizens. Not to enemy countries. I value my privacy, freedom and protections guaranteed by the fourth amendment of the Constitution. All of the gung ho folks here who are calling for his execution seriously need to re-evaluate their position. Snowden is a courageous individual!
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How can any of you view Mr Snowden as a traitor when he did exactly what Jonathan Pollard did.
They both gave top secret info out to help people. You are a bunch of hypocrites if you view one as doing the right thing and the other as not.
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/8573_449530348475539_1506442501_n.png)
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His name will never die!! A hero of our time!
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The NSA didn't like him violating their privacy. :P
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A total traitor. I would give him the death sentence, if I could. Why, you ask? Because he simply made it easier for another 9-11 to happen. He's made it harder to catch Jihadists before they kill.
By the way, they're collecting metadata, not the contents of your calls.
This is 2013, not 1776. I'm betting that the Framers wouldn't have any problem with this.
If there's another 9-11, how many will say, "You know, we didn't do all we could, did we?"
I think we should do all we can. This includes supporting programs like this.
Snowden should be caught and tried for treason.
Considering, that my family in Europe was exterminated by the Nazis using similar tactics to what the USA government is doing with the ILLEGAL secret monitoring and intelligence acquisition operations , I will commend Edward Snowden as a great hero!!
Forget 9/11, let's try a Shoa Chadash (New Holocaust)! When a government using unconstitutional means to empower itself at the expense of its citizens in the name of "National Security", what you end up with is a Fascist state led by terrorists. 9/11 will be absolutely nothing to talk about in comparison to having a country ruled by an evil dictatorship that has complete control over the populace. There is a reason why our Founding Fathers in the USA created a Constitution, it was to protect us from this very evil! Modern technology and digital information technology has only given corrupt governments, like the one led by Barack Hussein a footstool in acquiring more power and control over an ignorant population of sheeple, then ever was possible in the past. Essentially, by us digitizing and transporting all our thoughts over text, voice and video over the web, the government now has access to everything we ever said or thought and can utilize it against us.
I am a software developer and I do know the potential the government has at acquiring information. I understand Snowden's fears, as I in my own profession live with them every day. The means for the government to compress, archive, encrypt and store data becomes easier and easier every year. Nanotechnology means almost infinite amount of digital data can be archived in secret government databases. Thankfully, we had a whistleblower who decided not to comply with unscrupulous, unconstitutional and heinous activities carried out by our evil government.
I support Edward Snowden, a 1000% .. We The People, not We The Government.
If the government spying on US citizens and gaining more and more information from people is suppose to protect us from a few 3rd world jihadis, who will protect us when the government decides its time to broaden their spectrum of who is a terrorist and who is not? Let's start with JTF and JDL groups. We have a set of laws that guarantee the rights of our citizens from the government. The government was circumventing the laws to empower itself and using terrorism and National Security as excuse. It is the government, in fact, not Edward Snowden, who is responsible for putting Americans at risk for terrorist attacks, since they abused the powers which were to be used to protect the American public from such dangers. Now, we have more to fear from our government then we do from any terrorist. Governments have always proven themselves to be the worst terrorists throughout history.
Did anyone mention they failed to protect us from the Boston Bombing?? Despite, the fact Russian Intelligence a while back even warned America these men posed a significant threat!
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Amen EveryJewA44!
And in light of the other scandals which have arisen, the targeting of conservatives by the government organization the IRS, and illegal phone inspection of journalists for the AP and FOX news, and the cover-up of Benghazi.... Only a completely ignorant fool who happens to be an idiot would not see the writing on the wall.
This is exactly the government my high school teachers warned me against.
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Sorry, everyone, I'm not going to over-react to this collection of metadata. I'm not fearful that Nazi's are taking over the government and are going to throw innocents into jail for making a phone call to their grandmother. I will say this: If my brother was killed in the collapse of the Twin Towers, I wouldn't be afraid that my government was turning into the terrorists. Instead, I would be very supportive of using any tools necessary to make it easier for them to prevent terrorism. If I'm an idiot, then so be it.
By the way, you know how they caught they caught the Boston Bombers? From camera surveillance. Gee, we should take down those cameras because our right to privacy is being eroded. We can't walk the streets now without being photographed by the Nazi's who have taken over our government. What's next? Cameras in our bedrooms?
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A total traitor. I would give him the death sentence, if I could. Why, you ask? Because he simply made it easier for another 9-11 to happen. He's made it harder to catch Jihadists before they kill.
By the way, they're collecting metadata, not the contents of your calls.
This is 2013, not 1776. I'm betting that the Framers wouldn't have any problem with this.
If there's another 9-11, how many will say, "You know, we didn't do all we could, did we?"
I think we should do all we can. This includes supporting programs like this.
Snowden should be caught and tried for treason.
You freaking serious? You don't think that the big shots in al-Qaeda don't have ways around government surveillance?
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Sorry, everyone, I'm not going to over-react to this collection of metadata. I'm not fearful that Nazi's are taking over the government and are going to throw innocents into jail for making a phone call to their grandmother. I will say this: If my brother was killed in the collapse of the Twin Towers, I wouldn't be afraid that my government was turning into the terrorists. Instead, I would be very supportive of using any tools necessary to make it easier for them to prevent terrorism. If I'm an idiot, then so be it.
By the way, you know how they caught they caught the Boston Bombers? From camera surveillance. Gee, we should take down those cameras because our right to privacy is being eroded. We can't walk the streets now without being photographed by the Nazi's who have taken over our government. What's next? Cameras in our bedrooms?
In Nazi Germany there was very few terrorist attacks. You're right, there is a price we pay living in a free society. That means, people are going to attempt to break the trust and try to take advantage of the system. When you live in a nazi-like, police-state people are much safer. Perhaps we should all have chips implanted in our brain and have constant embedded tracking of our every move to be even more safe. Where do we draw the line? The outdoor cameras were put in a public place and used for security of private establishments. They were not installed by the government, but happen to have served the purpose of identifying the perpetrators. This is fine, as it did not impose upon the privacy of any individual in his private residence, but was maintaining the security of an establishment. I also am not against installing cameras in public places to identify suspicious activity in places that could be susceptible to terrorist attacks, such as at the new world trade center building.
However, the problem with trusting the government with your complete security is some times friend turns into foe. Let us use Nazi Germany as a prime example, but it doesn't end there. Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin, among others took advantage of having complete government control and an oppressive security and intelligence force (like KGB) that did much to restrict freedom and suppress human rights.
I'll take a string of suicide bombings over a complete police state where you have to ask permission to travel from one place to another, show your papers at checkpoints every 5 miles or have government approval to perform any activity. The Chinese government, for example, surveillance churches, to make sure they are not giving praise to a man over The State. It is illegal in China, for example, to say Praise G-d. They must say Praise The Government of China and G-d. This is mandatory, as they cannot accept the people to believe there is any higher authority than the government. They know that these types of thoughts can trigger a Revolution.
Mass government surveillance, gun control, heavy taxation isn't about protecting and helping the people, it's about empowering the machine, the government who is self-destructive and corrupt. Hence , once again, why we have a Constitution implemented to protect us against this inevitable corruptible nature of humans and governing authorities.
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Sorry, everyone, I'm not going to over-react to this collection of metadata. I'm not fearful that Nazi's are taking over the government and are going to throw innocents into jail for making a phone call to their grandmother. I will say this: If my brother was killed in the collapse of the Twin Towers, I wouldn't be afraid that my government was turning into the terrorists. Instead, I would be very supportive of using any tools necessary to make it easier for them to prevent terrorism. If I'm an idiot, then so be it.
By the way, you know how they caught they caught the Boston Bombers? From camera surveillance. Gee, we should take down those cameras because our right to privacy is being eroded. We can't walk the streets now without being photographed by the Nazi's who have taken over our government. What's next? Cameras in our bedrooms?
First of all, you cannot guarantee what a future government will look like so the fact that you are not fearful that Nazis are taking over the present government is irrelevant. When you give more power to the government today, you can never depend on getting it back tomorrow.
Secondly, surveillance cameras are used by private entities where the owner of the area implements them for security. Secret collection of information from private citizens by the government without their knowledge is, in fact, like someone coming into your bedroom and, unbeknownst to you, installing a surveillance camera and monitoring you.
Third, metadata in and of itself, does not necessarily infringe upon your privacy but, since it is data about data and can be used to extract the actual data (email, texts, phone records...) at a later date, are you willing to bank on the government never doing that? I work in the IT field and had a instance a while back where a volume on a network server suffered corruption in all copies of it's partition table. The data was inaccessible. Using metadata I was able to retrieve the volume with absolutely no data loss. Anyone looking at the metadata would have been looking at gibberish so there would have been no concern about any data breach. Once the metadata was used to reclaim the data, everything was accessible.
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I'm just disappointed he gave the story to extremely U.S hating ,Israel hating gay glenn greenwald http://cifwatch.com/2013/05/21/glenn-greenwald-doubles-down-on-claim-that-pro-israel-factions-nixed-massad-essay/
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He's a criminal.
Ratting on the US.
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He's a criminal.
Ratting on the US.
If the US is committing secret, illegal acts against it's citizens, then they deserve to get ratted out.
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/10538_668053006544693_167195016_n.jpg)
By the way, I'd be all for surveillance, if the gov actually was after muzzrats.
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If this info is used to spy on good Americans who are right wing, then he's a hero for exposing this.
If this info is used to find terrorists and their ties and to save lives, he's a traitor for doing this.
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If this info is used to spy on good Americans who are right wing, then he's a hero for exposing this.
If this info is used to find terrorists and their ties and to save lives, he's a traitor for doing this.
http://redflagnews.com/headlines/fun-fact-of-the-day-mosques-are-off-limits-to-obamas-snooping
care to take a side?
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If this info is used to spy on good Americans who are right wing, then he's a hero for exposing this.
If this info is used to find terrorists and their ties and to save lives, he's a traitor for doing this.
Perhaps he is then hero and traitor?? Or Maybe we can just call him a HERO?? To me, he is a Hero. The good outweighs the bad! Of course, by them spying on the entire American public, they have the potential thwart terrorist attacks to some degree.. As I said earlier, in Nazi Germany, you would probably never have any Islamic terrorist attack, because the Nazis had absolute control of the population and people were so heavily monitored and limited in the activities they could perform under a strict, fascist police state.
It is like gun control, maybe we could have saved a few lives by banning guns, as no whackjob could just go and own a gun. But, many more people's lives will be lost because law abiding citizens can no longer have the right or ability to defend themselves, as well as the government will have more power and face much less resistance if they seek to harm their citizens. Sadly, we are not too far away from this scenario.
The government will use "National Security" as a rational means to increase their own power and circumvent our laws to empower themselves. There is nothing new here, history repeats itself. The only thing that is scary is the greater potential the government now has to gain access to information of its citizens, which it never before had.
The Americans people also elected a fascist/socialist, Islamic tyrant as their leader. Our government is so divided. I am sorry, but I no longer have any faith and trust in the American government and its leader. I'd rather risk a few terrorist attacks then to give a tyrant like Obama Hussein more power and more amnesty for breaking laws of our Constitution.
What is happening is exactly what our Founding Fathers warned us about. I am telling you that many of these Islamists are so petty in comparison to what a corrupt, totalitarian dictatorship run by an autocrat or a group of dictators. Obama Hussein, Holder, Feinstein and the other tyrants feel they have more power than what is granted to them by the Constitution. They have worked very hard to do what they can to strip Americans of their rights and increase their authoritative boundaries.
The saddest part to me is that so many of us Jews support BIG GOVERNMENT and put our faith in it for our protection. Yet, we also have suffered at the hands of these very same BIG, POWERFUL governments. When are we going to wake up and realize BIG GOVERNMENTS have never been our friends? Was half the Jewish race being wiped out not enough proof of this problem?
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I feel that the guy is a hero. At least he had the nerve to tell what is going on in the Obama white house.
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It is true that the so-called journalist who reported this story to the guardian is a died-in-the-wool commie leftist America hater, who also happens to be a deeply twisted Jew hater....
http://pjmedia.com/blog/glenn-greenwald-and-the-anti-american-conspiratorial-tradition/?singlepage=true
Glenn Greenwald is a former blogger at Salon.com and currently a columnist on civil liberties and U.S. national security issues for the Guardian. His political orientation embraces a brand of “anti-imperialism” — common within the UK far-left — informed by a palpable loathing of America, a nation characterized as a dangerous force in the world. Greenwald’s anti-Americanism is so intense that he once compared the U.S. overthrow of Saddam Hussein in Iraq to the Nazi conquest of Europe.
As is the case with many Guardian-brand commentators, Greenwald’s anti-imperialist ideological package includes a strong hostility to Israel, and a corresponding belief in the injurious influence of organized U.S. Jewry on American foreign policy in the Middle East. Indeed, Greenwald has not infrequently advanced explicitly antisemitic narratives, darkly warning of the Israel lobby’s total “stranglehold” on American policy which, he’s argued, represents a control over political debate in the U.S. so complete that it’s even eroded free speech protections afforded by the U.S. Constitution. Greenwald claims that the “real goal” of the Israel lobby is to ensure “suffocating control” on U.S. foreign policy, so that Americans aren’t even allowed to debate their country’s “indescribably self-destructive, blind support for Israeli action.”
Greenwald also often imputes the darkest, most ignoble motives to his political opponents, once, for instance, accusing conservative Jewish columnist Charles Krauthammer of possessing a “psychopathic indifference to the slaughter of innocent people in pursuit of shadowy, unstated political goals.”
Understanding Greenwald’s imputations of bad faith and conspiratorial (often bigoted) narratives is vital in contextualizing the story which he broke at the Guardian last week about the NSA collection of phone records of Verizon users, and allegations that big tech companies granted the government access to private user information via an operation called PRISM. While significant allegations included in Greenwald’s “scoop” — such as the claim that the NSA had attained “direct access” to company servers, and the casual suggestion that the NSA has been acting illegally — don’t seem to hold up to critical scrutiny, he has also engaged in characteristically risible hyperbole in attempting to frame the issues. During a recent CNN interview, he argued thusly:
There is a massive apparatus within the United States government that with complete secrecy has been building this enormous structure that has only one goal. … And that is to destroy privacy and anonymity not just in the United States but around the world.
Issues raised by the Guardian story, such as how best to balance U.S. national security while protecting the privacy of American citizens, are, of course, open to debate. However, Greenwald — who has championed the cause of Bradley Manning, labeling him a “hero” who “deserves a medal and our collective gratitude” — is not someone the media should be taking seriously to initiate such an important national discussion.
As the always lucid Walter Russell Mead has argued, it’s important to maintain our sobriety, and understand that while there are no perfect solutions to the vexing national security problems of our day, the “airing of the issues within America’s open and deliberative democratic process” should ensure a result which protects Americans from the dangerous threat of global jihad while also defending against “unreasonable searches and seizures.”
While Americans can, of course, reasonably be concerned with the level of government snooping on the internet and social media, the Guardian columnist’s hysterical suggestion that the U.S. is malevolently conspiring to “destroy privacy and anonymity” is informed by the same conspiratorial sensibilities which inspire his frequent scare rhetoric warning of a furtive attempt by organized American Jewry to stifle debate and hijack U.S. policy.
Anti-Americans and antisemites share a similar tendency to find convenient, simplistic “root causes”; tend to subscribe to deeply skewed ideas about how the world works”; and, by failing to rationally interpret complex political events, lack the cognitive tools necessary to reflectively diagnose often maddeningly complicated political phenomena.
Whatever subsequent revelations may emerge about surveillance techniques employed by U.S. security agencies, those warning that the NSA data-collection program represents the existence of a master plan to subvert freedom around the world are drawing from a conspiratorial tradition within American politics which is as politically toxic as it is intellectually unserious.
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It is true that the so-called journalist who reported this story to the guardian is a died-in-the-wool commie leftist America hater, who also happens to be a deeply twisted Jew hater....
Certain things should transcend whether you have a left-wing or right-wing ideology. Right wingers can't agree to allow government surveillance when Bush is in office but not when Obama is in office and left wingers can't agree to it when Obama is in office but not when Bush is in office. It doesn't work that way. Either you agree with it or you don't knowing full well that both parties are going to do it.
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Certain things should transcend whether you have a left-wing or right-wing ideology. Right wingers can't agree to allow government surveillance when Bush is in office but not when Obama is in office and left wingers can't agree to it when Obama is in office but not when Bush is in office. It doesn't work that way. Either you agree with it or you don't knowing full well that both parties are going to do it.
I agree with it. You have to catch terrorists. If it's used to catch every type of terrorist but muslim ones, its a waste, and you know its being used fraudulently.
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A total traitor. I would give him the death sentence, if I could. Why, you ask? Because he simply made it easier for another 9-11 to happen. He's made it harder to catch Jihadists before they kill.
By the way, they're collecting metadata, not the contents of your calls.
This is 2013, not 1776. I'm betting that the Framers wouldn't have any problem with this.
If there's another 9-11, how many will say, "You know, we didn't do all we could, did we?"
I think we should do all we can. This includes supporting programs like this.
Snowden should be caught and tried for treason.
Problem is, most of us do not believe the NSA is using these techniques to catch jihadists. Because that would be "profiliing." So they specificially AVOID using the spying to track dangerous Muslim terrorists and potential terrorists. Which is why they did not stop the Marathon bombing.
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Not sure who he's loyal to but he is trash.
What about the commies hacking the US?
Why doesn't he report it to us?
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Not sure who he's loyal to but he is trash.
What about the commies hacking the US?
Why doesn't he report it to us?
Wise ack makes a point. He might be a bad guy that unwittingly did a good thing.