JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dan Ben Noah on July 05, 2013, 02:50:03 PM
-
Shalom
-
Kol HaKavod to those Jews who have no fear of stating the obvious truth, as related from the Tanach and through the Prophets, that the Third Temple will stand and the Jews redeemed and gathered into the Holy Land. I have no fear of stating this truth, although I am not a famous personality (only infamous).
Rabbi Chaim Richman has no fear of spreading this message either as he runs the Temple Institute in Jerusalem...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPmViwmJSJE
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_0xlRFWfwE
-
Every generation that does not merit to see the rebuilding, is as if it was destroyed in their days.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uawz-CIKL4
-
The temple shall be rebuilt as early as possible.
-
The majority opinion amongst Orthodoxy seems to be that the 3rd Temple will descend ready-built from Heaven without human intervention
http://jewishmag.com/16mag/temple/temple.htm
This is not the general Kahanist view, which advocates an immediate building with Israeli bulldozers, pile drivers, concrete, rebar and breeze blocks, even without a Heavenly sign, a Moshiach or a High Priest.
-
Dan Ben Noah,
It is not as simple as you suggest it to be. Most of the Sages state that the Third Temple WILL descend from heaven. But there are those who disagree and say that a combination of events will occur, that Moshiach must come and start rebuilding it, then it will descend from heaven. And then there is a minority who disagree with this position.
I also would like to protest your portrayal of those who believe it WILL descend from heaven and LEHAVDIL those of the reform or conservative persuasion. These GREAT GEDOLIM including Rashi and Tosephet who explain how the Temple will be brought down from heaven are anything but reform or conservative jokers and that they are mentioned in the same paragraph is great mistake.
Third I would also like you to learn the Talmud which teaches that the Halacha IS DECIDED by the majority of Sages and Rabbis and not according to who has what appear to be the facts of the case. The Torah clearly gives the majority decision the legal status.
Here is the story from Talmud Tractate Baba Metzia (The talmud volume I studied some pages with my Rabbi last week)...
http://www.torahtots.com/parsha/devarim/nitzav3.htm
DOWN TO EARTH
The Talmud (Baba Metzia 59b) explains, "it is not in heaven" as follows:
After the Torah was given, it was no longer "in heaven." Hashem does not make Torah decisions in Heaven. Halachic (Torah law) decisions must be decided by human authorities following the guidelines given to Moshe at Har (Mt.) Sinai. It is Hashem's will that the Sages apply the laws of the Torah to the best of their human understanding. Decisions must reflect the opinion of the majority of a Bait Din (Jewish court), who are the final authority in all cases of Torah law.
The Talmud (ibid) brings this story to prove its point.
The Sages were debating whether or not a certain type of oven could become tamay (impure). The majority of the Sages ruled that it could. Rabbi Eliezer ben (son of) Horkenos held that it could not.
Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos, perhaps the most outstanding Sage of the generation, cited many proofs in favor of his position, but the Sages, who were the majority, would not accept these proofs.
Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos declared: "This carob tree will demonstrate that the Halachah (Torah law) follows my opinion."
A miracle occurred whereby the carob tree uprooted itself and replanted itself 100 cubits away. (some say, four hundred amot).
The Sages replied: "Halachah is not established on the basis of a carob tree.* "
[*Since Rabbi Eliezer was a very righteous man, the tree might have been uprooted at his command. This does not prove, though, that his ruling was correct.]
Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos declared: "This stream of water will demonstrate that the Halachah follows my opinion." The stream of water began to flow backwards against the current.
The Sages replied: "Halachah is not established on the basis of a stream."
Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos declared: "The walls of the Bait Hamidrash (House of Study) will demonstrate that the Halachah follows my opinion."
The walls of the Bait Hamidrash began to tremble and fall, and the Sages feared that any moment they would collapse.
Rabbi Yehoshua called out to the walls: "Why are you interfering in a Halachic debate among Sages?"
Immediately, out of respect for Rabbi Yehoshua, the walls did not collapse, but out of deference to Rabbi Eliezer, they did not return to their original upright position either. They remained slanted.
Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos declared: "The heavens will attest that the Halachah follows my opinion."
A bat kol (heavenly divine voice) proclaimed: "Why do you contest Rabbi Eliezer? The halachah always follows Rabbi Eliezer's teachings."
Rabbi Yehoshua rose and declared:
"It is written: 'It is not in heaven." ' (Devarim ibid).
What is meant by; 'It is not in the heaven'? Rebbi Yirmiah said: It means that we don't listen to a bat kol in matters of Halachah, for the Torah was already given to man at Har Sinai.
Rabbi Yehoshua continued:
"We don't listen to the bat kol because You (Hashem) already wrote in the Torah at Har Sinai (Shmot, Exodus 23:2) 'According to the majority (the matter) shall be decided.'*
[*R' Yehoshua understood this to mean that Hashem would never interfere with the judicial process through which the law is decided. Accordingly he interpreted the Heavenly echo to be merely a test of whether the Sages would hold their ground. And the next story proved him correct.]
Later, one of the Sages, Rabbi Natan met Eliyahu Hanavi (Elijah the prophet). He asked him: "What did Hashem say during this argument?"
Eliyahu replied to him: "He was laughing and saying (with satisfaction), 'My sons won me in the discussion.' "*
[*The Heavenly Voice was meant as a test for the Sages, whether or not they would follow the majority opinion, as commanded by the Torah, and they passed the test.]
[/quote[
-
Here is a rational discussion on the apparent disagreement between the sages:
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/247,2100722/Who-Will-Build-the-3rd-Temple.html#articlepage
We can now approach the primary question about the Third Temple. How will it be built? This is an issue that few people are willing to address because of obvious political implications. But, like it or not, the Third Temple is going to be built one day. So we may as well look at the question now.
There is an essential disagreement among authorities as to how the Third Temple will be built. According to the Rambam (Maimonides), in his work, the Jewish people are commanded to construct a House for G-d.1 The Rambam lists this as one of the 613 eternal commandments of the Torah, relevant and obligatory whenever the Temple is not standing. He derives this from the verse, "And they shall make for Me a sanctuary, and I will dwell among them."2 According to the Rambam, the Jewish people must build the Third Temple any way they can, at any time they can accomplish the task. In the Laws of Kings, the Rambam states that the Messiah, an earthly, Jewish king, will build the Third Temple. And, in fact, he states that the only conclusive proof of the identity of the Messiah is that he will be the one to build the Temple.3
The other view on the subject is derived from Medrash Rabbah, (a book of homiletic expositions from the time of the Talmud) . Here, the Medrash teaches that G-d Himself will build the Third Temple, and it will descend out of the fire from Heaven, onto its appointed place on earth, the Temple Mount. Rashi (the chief and classical bible commentator, circa 1200 C.E.) and Tosefot, (an academy of European scholars circa 1300C.E.) and many other authorities subscribe to this view, and this has become the popular view of the Jewish people. As to the verse, "They shall make for Me a Sanctuary," this opposing view teaches that the directive was already fulfilled with the building of the Mishkan and the first two Temples, and is no longer applicable. They cite as the source for the Third Temple the verse, "You shall bring them in and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance, in the establishment of Your residence which You have made, O Eternal, the Sanctuary, G-d, which Your hands have established."4
Although the two views appear to be contradictory, both are the words of the Living G-d, and there is no contradiction here at all. Among the many explanations which resolve the argument is the teaching that the redemption (and therefore the Third Temple) can come in one of two ways, b'itoh (in its time) or achishenah (suddenly, at any moment). B'itoh is the end of the fifth milennia, the Jewish year 6000 (as of this writing we are in the year 5759). If final redemption does not come till then, the Jewish people, led by the Messiah, who will be anointed as king by a prophet of G-d, will build the Third Temple. This goes according to the Rambam. But if the redemption comes achishenah, that is, immediately if not sooner, it will be replete with manifold miracles, incomparably greater than during the Exodus from Egypt some 3309 years ago, and the Holy Temple will suddenly appear out of the fire of Heaven atop Mount Moriah in Jerusalem. This is the opinion of Rashi and Tosefot, and the hope and dream and yearning of the Jewish people.
This explains the contradiction, but it does not resolve it. And one does not push away the Rambam with a toothpick. For the Rambam could tell you, "Is that so? Well, the commandments are eternal and G-d has no right to take one of them away from us. So don't give me this 'appearing out of the fire of Heaven' stuff."
The question then becomes, "How can G-d send the Temple down from Heaven already built, yet have it built on earth by the Jewish people?"
In Ohr HaMikdash (Light of the Holy Temple), Rabbi Raphael Moshe Luria resolves the paradox a number of ways. He cites the principle of a hechsher Mitzvah, that is, an act that causes a mitzvah to be fulfilled. For example, the last commandment of the Torah (number 613) commands us to write our own Torah scroll. This is an extraordinary task that few people are capable of performing. It takes years of training to become a scribe, and a trained scribe will spend a year or longer writing a Torah, which must be copied letter by letter from an existing Torah. If one letter is missing or written incorrectly, the Torah is invalid, and considered as no Torah at all.
-
Regarding the way we deal with two apparently 'contradictory' statements by sages is by applying the idea 'THESE AND THESE ARE THE WORDS OF THE LIVING GOD' as explained in Talmud tractate Eruvin 13b...
http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Eiruvin.pdf
R. Abba stated in the name of Samuel: For three years there was a dispute between Beth Shammai and Beth Hillel, the former asserting, ‘The halachah is in agreement with our views’ and the latter contending, ‘The halachah is in agreement with our views’. Then a bath kol22 issued announcing, ‘[The utterances of] both 23 are the words of the living God, but the halachah is in agreement with the rulings of Beth Hillel’. Since, however, both are the words of the living God’ what was it that entitled Beth Hillel to have the halachah fixed in agreement with their rulings? Because they were kindly and modest, they studied their own rulings and those of Beth Shammai,24 and were even so25 [humble] as to mention the actions26 of Beth Shammai before theirs, (as may be seen from27 what we have learnt: If a man had his head and the greater part of his body within the sukkah28 but his table in the house,29 Beth Shammai ruled [that the booth was] invalid but Beth Hillel ruled that it was valid. Said Beth Hillel to Beth Shammai, ‘Did it not so happen that the elders of Beth Shammai30 and the elders of Beth Hillel went on a visit to R. Johanan b. Hahoranith and found him sitting with his head and greater part of his body within the sukkah while his table was in the house?’ Beth Shammai replied: From31 there proof [may be adduced for our view for] they indeed told him, ‘If you have always acted in this manner you have never fulfilled the commandment of sukkah’). This32 teaches you that him who humbles himself, the Holy One, blessed be He, raises up, and him who exalts himself, the Holy One, blessed be He, humbles; from him who seeks greatness, greatness flees, but him who flees from greatness, greatness follows; he who forces time33 is forced back by time34 but he who yields35 to time36 finds time standing at his side.37
-
Islam is praying for its 50000th
(http://s13.postimg.org/n0ohdchit/uyu.png)
-
So is it going to be
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4rsJ93PxSHs/Tt7xngKV47I/AAAAAAAAAdo/pbx6Acmt8PM/s320/third_temple.jpg)
or
(http://i5.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/2b/77/85de_35.JPG)
?!
Or a bit of both?
-
How about like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7dUnD60wWE
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uawz-CIKL4
I was there with him that day but I couldn't find myself in the video. There were many people up there that day. I saw Noam Federman, HaIvri, and Feiglin there that day.
-
Of course I agree with the idea that we must make the effort to rebuild the Temple, which will hasten the coming of Mashiach, who will complete the building. And I agree that my understanding of Kahanism is a form of activism which supports doing what we can to build the Temple today.
-
Islam is praying for its 50000th
(http://s13.postimg.org/n0ohdchit/uyu.png)
Actually the zerglings are rapists and pillagers which they produce quick and two at a time, but they can also produce terrorists.
-
Dan,
How do you contend with an obvious problem with Rambams quoted statements concerning this? One on hand, in one place, he says that the Jewish people must build it. But in another place he states that Moshiach must rebuild it, and this will be proof he is Moshiach?
There is an essential disagreement among authorities as to how the Third Temple will be built. According to the Rambam (Maimonides), in his work, the Jewish people are commanded to construct a House for G-d.1 The Rambam lists this as one of the 613 eternal commandments of the Torah, relevant and obligatory whenever the Temple is not standing. He derives this from the verse, "And they shall make for Me a sanctuary, and I will dwell among them."2 According to the Rambam, the Jewish people must build the Third Temple any way they can, at any time they can accomplish the task. In the Laws of Kings, the Rambam states that the Messiah, an earthly, Jewish king, will build the Third Temple. And, in fact, he states that the only conclusive proof of the identity of the Messiah is that he will be the one to build the Temple.3
See Law of Kings Chapter 11, Law # 4
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188356/jewish/Chapter-11.htm
Halacha 4
If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach.
If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach.
He will then improve the entire world, motivating all the nations to serve God together, as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.'
If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah. Rather, he should be considered as all the other proper and complete kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. God caused him to arise only to test the many, as Daniel 11:35 states: 'And some of the wise men will stumble, to try them, to refine, and to clarify until the appointed time, because the set time is in the future.'
.
.
.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bw-lJlyuqA
-
בס''ד
The Jews must rebuild the Holy Temple with their own hands.
1. The mitzvot (commandments) on the precise specifications and materials needed to rebuild were not given to us in vain. If there are mitzvot on how exactly to rebuild Beit HaMikdash, that means we are supposed to be the ones rebuilding it. Jews built the first two Holy Temples, and they will build the third as well.
2. As previously mentioned in this thread, HaRambam and other great sages say that one of the signs that a leader is the Mashiach (Messiah) is that he rebuilds Beit HaMikdash.
3. Hashem wants us to be His "partners" in this world as much as possible in order to give us the "zchut" (merit) to obtain "sachar" (be rewarded) on Yom Hadin (the Day of Judgement). If we rebuild the Holy Temple with our own hands, there is far greater "zchut" than if Hashem does all of the work for us.
4. The Charedim who say that Beit HaMikdash is waiting for us in Heaven and that we don't have to rebuild it are the same people who told us that the State of Israel would never be resurrected before the coming of Mashiach and that we cannot create a Jewish state, we have to wait for Hashem to create it for us by Himself. History has proven these people wrong. We are back in Israel after 1800 years of exile, the desolate land has become like a garden once again, and we are winning miraculous victories against our enemies who surround and outnumber us 100 to one. Did Hashem help us with all of these things? Of course, without Him we could never have done it. But we were His partners, sometimes His unwilling partners.
5. There are two batei HaMikdash (Holy Temples) just as there are two Jerusalems - one is the physical one on earth that we must build, the other is entirely spiritual. The physical one is the actual building, the spiritual one is the "amud anan" (pillar of cloud) that descended from Heaven when Shlomo HaMelech built the first temple. When we do what we are supposed to do, then Hashem will turn the temple into a holy place of prophesy where G-d manifests His will. The spiritual temple is waiting in Heaven for us. But we will not see it until we build the physical temple.
6. Even if we cannot yet rebuild the entire temple because we do not know for certain where "kodesh Hakodashim" (the Holy of Holies) is located, we can still rebuild most of it. If we rebuild most of it and turn into the biggest and most magnificent synagogue in the world, eventually Hashem will restore prophesy to us so that we will know exactly where kodesh HaKodashim is located and that will enable us to complete the most important project in world history.
-
We should also admit that not anyone can just start building the Temple and expect it to be the dwelling place for the Shechinah (Divine Presence). The reason David HaMelech (King David) was denied the opportunity to build the first Temple was due to some action on the part of David according to Tanach.
This is why I believe that Chaims ultimate statements that there are two aspects of the Temple, the spiritual and the physical which must come together to bring about the building of the Temple. As I said above we must work diligently to bring about the coming of Moshiach, so that it will be before it's time, and thus we merit rebuilding and seeing the Messianic era.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/625408/jewish/Was-King-David-wrong-for-waging-so-many-battles.htm
Question:
I've heard it said that King David was denied the opportunity to build the Holy Temple because he had "blood on his hands" from the many wars he waged. If this is the case, why do we hold David in such high esteem? Why was he chosen to be the progenitor of the Moshiach?
Answer:
You are correct. King David told his son Solomon:
"But the word of G‑d was upon me, saying: 'You have shed much blood, and you have waged great wars; you shall not build a house in My Name because you have shed much blood to the ground before Me. Behold a son will be born to you. He will be a man of peace, and I shall give him peace from all his enemies around about . . . He shall build a House in My Name."1
We always need to concern ourselves with one question only: "What does G‑d want from me right here, right now?" For David, the answer was to go to war to protect his nation against the various military threats that they faced. The fact that later on he was not allowed to build the Temple is no indication that his warfare was a black mark on his record. It was simply incompatible with the peaceful nature of the Temple.
A simple analogy: You are walking to a black tie dinner, and you pass by a muddy swamp. You notice someone sinking in the mucky water, screaming for help, so you jump in and save him. The guy you rescued thanks you profusely and goes on his way—but you won't really feel comfortable continuing on to the black tie dinner in your muddy, dripping suit. Chances are that security will escort you out if you do decide to make an appearance.
So does that mean that you now regret saving the drowning man?
Hope this helps.
Rabbi Moshe Goldman for Chabad.org
1. I Chronicles 22:8-10.
-
I was kind of stuck on "we blow it up, pieces go heavenward and return, and then we build it out of that". Halachic?
-
"For in fire You O L-rd incendiarized her, and in fire you will in the future rebuild her!" (Mincha Amida said today on Tisha b'Av).
באש אתה הצתה ובאש אתה עתיד לבנותה
The rebuilding of the Future Jerusalem and 3rd Temple will involve a miraculous use of fire by Hashem.
-
People who take Midrashim literally and in face value are idiots. The Gemarah even brings the opinion about Mikdash from heaven and outright rejects it (perhaps soo later people wouldn't try to claim it could happen). Yett we are supposed to go by a Midrash and reject both the Gemarah and rationality?
By the way if you really ask and scrutinize some of the people who say that is will "fall from heaven" in the physical sense, really get down to it their real reason is FEAR. They do not want to provoke the Ishmaelim. That is their real reason, the whole "Mikdash from heaven" is an excuse. Similarly with not even visiting Har HaBayit, why? NOT to provoke the goyim (ishmaelim in this case).
-
People who take Midrashim literally and in face value are idiots. The Gemarah even brings the opinion about Mikdash from heaven and outright rejects it (perhaps soo later people wouldn't try to claim it could happen). Yett we are supposed to go by a Midrash and reject both the Gemarah and rationality?
By the way if you really ask and scrutinize some of the people who say that is will "fall from heaven" in the physical sense, really get down to it their real reason is FEAR. They do not want to provoke the Ishmaelim. That is their real reason, the whole "Mikdash from heaven" is an excuse. Similarly with not even visiting Har HaBayit, why? NOT to provoke the goyim (ishmaelim in this case).
As Chaim explained last week there are two parts of the equation. If only you could understand what is being said concerning this. The spiritual aspect of Jewish Unity is required in order to bring us together so that we can fight against the actual physical entity which is preventing us from rebuilding. Without this Unity we will never be able to beat the enemy. I don't believe the problem is due to fear of them but the problem is more a case of realizing that the work which needs to be done is so very difficult.
The Mikdash from heaven is a metaphor for the spiritual aspect which will envelop the Jewish people. When we abandon baseless hatred in favor of ahavat yisrael we will be granted the ability to bring down any giant. Remember that the very first calamity which we remember today (as I sit in my low chair with my stomach grumbling) is the Sin of the Spies where a very evil speech was given disparaging the land. Since that event the Jewish people have been crying for a variety of things which have been caused by this baseless hatred.
It is my belief that the Jewish people, when unified, will be able to accomplish miracles. Removing the current abomination form the Temple mount will require a miracle of sorts, like the miracle of the Maccabees versus the Greeks (the few against the mighty). The thing I am working for is bringing Jews to believe that we must unify in our commitment to mitzvot, regardless of our minhagim and dress styles. It is small things which keep the Jewish people divided.
Of course, as I explained, and as Chaim explained, there are things which are not acceptable. And Hashem does not require us to tolerate the unacceptable. We must rebuke those who are doing wrong, we must enforce the laws to the best of our current abilities, and we must carry out our responsibilities. But the small things which cause division in the religious Jewish world have had the effect of preventing the geulah.
This is my understanding and this is why I feel it is not as simple as you are making it to be. And you should consider the lesson of the 'Mikdash from heaven' and listen to Chaims explanation again.
-
Muman gladd you brought the spies into this- Their underlying factor was both fear of the enemy (after all "we looked like grasshoppers in their eyes") and fear of loosing (personal) power. Perfectly explains what I said earlier.
And didnt you first try to stand by the "Mikdash from heaven", now your saying it isn't literal?
Their needs to be unity, yes I agree, but that unity must precisely focus on rebuilding the Holy Temple, on making Israel a Jewish state and on working practically on making Am Yisrael successful instead of the wishful thinking, passavist type of existence and just waiting for "Temples to fall from heaven" and Moshiah just poppoing up and curing all our ills.
-
Muman gladd you brought the spies into this- Their underlying factor was both fear of the enemy (after all "we looked like grasshoppers in their eyes") and fear of loosing (personal) power. Perfectly explains what I said earlier.
And didnt you first try to stand by the "Mikdash from heaven", now your saying it isn't literal?
Their needs to be unity, yes I agree, but that unity must precisely focus on rebuilding the Holy Temple, on making Israel a Jewish state and on working practically on making Am Yisrael successful instead of the wishful thinking, passavist type of existence and just waiting for "Temples to fall from heaven" and Moshiah just poppoing up and curing all our ills.
No Tag, I have always brought down that both 'Mikdash from Heaven' and 'Mikdash from our own work' are both true. Read the selections I posted which resolve the apparent contradiction between Rambam and Rashi. I could post it again but I am sure it is probably in this thread.
I don't work with people who are waiting for a Temple to fall from heaven. The Temple which we currently have, the soul which Hashem gave us, has a mission to spread the teaching that Jews must do what they can to begin the rebuilding. Especially Rabbi Chaim Richman who today went up to the Temple mount and was not permitted to enter due to the rioting of the enemy, he is working hard to teach and to do what is needed for the Temple to stand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEwjat8r_ZM
I am one who believes that all the great Sages had wisdom which is essential to bring about Geulah (redemption). I think Chaims explanation was a succinct answer to the question concerning what the 'mikdash from heaven' means.
-
http://www.templeinstitute.org/
SHALOM AND WELCOME to the official website of the TEMPLE INSTITUTE in Jerusalem, Israel. The Temple Institute is dedicated to every aspect of the Holy Temple of Jerusalem, and the central role it fulfilled, and will once again fulfill, in the spiritual wellbeing of both Israel and all the nations of the world. The Institute's work touches upon the history of the Holy Temple's past, an understanding of the present day, and the Divine promise of Israel's future. The Institute's activities include education, research, and development. The Temple Institute's ultimate goal is to see Israel rebuild the Holy Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, in accord with the Biblical commandments. We invite you to read our Statement of Principles. To learn more about the Temple Institute, click here.
The Temple Institute is dedicated to all aspects of the Divine commandment for Israel to build a house for G-d's presence, the Holy Temple, on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem. The range of the Institute's involvement with this concept includes education, research, activism, and actual preparation. Our goal is firstly, to restore Temple consciousness and reactive these "forgotten" commandments. We hope that by doing our part, we can participate in the process that will lead to the Holy Temple becoming a reality once more.
Why build the Temple?
Why this fuss over an ancient, seemingly outdated concept? What relationship does the Holy Temple have to our world today? The people of Israel have lived without a Temple for nearly 2,000 years, and seem to be doing fine without one. We don't seem to need it, and G-d certainly doesn't, so why think about rebuilding?
202 Biblical Commandments
The Jewish people accepted the "Yoke of Heaven," the structure of their relationship with the Creator and their spiritual responsibility, at the Mount Sinai revelation. This relationship is based on Israel's acceptance and fulfillment of the Torah's 613 Divine commandments. But in fact, fully one third - 202 of these commandments - are totally dependent on the existence of the Holy Temple for their fulfillment. But what is our attitude regarding these commandments? Do we think of them as inactive, dormant, dead? Do we believe that they are no longer applicable? Do we perhaps relegate them to that nebulous time of messianic redemption; that they will only be activated in the future with the coming of the messiah?
The Torah's commandments are eternal, for now and forever
Nothing can be further from the truth. Maimonides teaches (Sefer Igeret Ha'Shmad) that the performance of all the commandments are not dependent on the coming of the messiah. They are to be fulfilled at all times. G-d does not change His mind, or nullify any of the commandments included in the Torah, which were given once, for all time. In lieu of Temple service, we may observe various "remembrances" of these commandments, but that is all they are - merely gestures of nostalgia.
Fish out of water
But we fool ourselves if we think that the state of Judaism today, without the Temple, is normal. On the contrary, we are like fish out of water. If 1/3 of all the Torah's commandments center on the Temple, it would seem that Biblical observance in the Temple's absence is but a skeleton of what G-d had intended it to be.
Our spiritual alienation
Sadly, much of our contemporary attitudes regarding the Holy Temple are a reflection of our own spiritual bankruptcy and alienation from the spiritual underpinnings of true Torah knowledge and faith. The Holy Temple was not some magnificent building. It was the direct arena for our direct relationship with G-d; the unfolding saga of man's greatest spiritual longing. It was a place where heaven and earth met; a meeting place for man and G-d.
Our relationship with G-d
At this one place on earth, unlike any other, the one place that the Creator Himself chose to rest His presence, the rectification of man's connection with G-d takes place. All people were able to come to the Temple to partake in this direct and fulfilling bond; to recharge their spiritual batteries and come away with a renewed sense of purpose and being.
A new era of universal harmony
Every prophet of Israel, without exception, prophesized that the Temple would be rebuilt, ushering in a new era of universal harmony and peace unparalleled in the history of man. Thus, the "movement" to rebuild the Holy Temple is not new. It was born almost 2,000 years ago, at the moment of the Second Temple's destruction. For when the Holy Temple stood in Jerusalem, it was the soul of Jewish people... and the entire world... as we believe it will be once again.
The rebuilding of the Holy Temple: In our time?
The reality of the Jewish experience means that the Temple will be rebuilt. Many people who visit the Temple Institute are incredulous and cannot help but exclaim: "Do you really think that you will live to see the Holy Temple rebuilt?" The answer to that question is of little importance. Let us rather recall that Jewish history has a trajectory, which began when the patriarch Abraham smashed his father's idols. That trajectory has spanned the millennia, and it is obvious that we are rapidly approaching climactic times, in which the Holy Temple will once again become the focal point for mankind's spiritual focus. Whether this transpires in our generation or not, we can still choose to be active participants, and not simply spectators, in G-d's bold plan for the Redemption of Israel and all humanity.
-
On another topic which I touched on, many of the commentators and sages believe that a Jew must always create a Mishkan in his heart and soul. This is what I believe the 'Temple from Heaven' may be referring to...
http://www.torah.org/learning/rabbis-notebook/5760/terumah.html
In this week's Parsha, Moshe instructed the Bnai Yisroel in the design and construction of the Mishkan. The building of the Mishkan was in direct response to the sin of the Golden Calf. So long as the Jews had not sinned, G-d's constant caring and direction was open and overt. However, once the Jews lost faith in G-d's and worshipped the Golden Calf, G-d secreted His control over the universe within the laws of nature.
Before the sin of the Golden Calf G-d's reality was self-evident and obvious, similar to the way it was in the Garden of Eden before Adam and Chava sinned. After the sin of the Golden Calf the nation had to work and sacrifice in order to reveal G-d's presence, similar to the way it was after Adam and Chava sinned. After the Jews repented for the sin of the Golden Calf, G-d consented to partially reveal Himself within the midst of the people. However, the manner of His revelation would be limited to within the structure and service of the Mishkan. "…Make Me a sanctuary so that I can dwell in their midst." (25:8)
Many of the commentaries explain that the Mishkan's stated purpose, "So that I can dwell in their midst," really means, "in their hearts." As it says, "In my heart I will build a Mishkan, for the sake of the glory of His honor." G-d originally intended that there not be a Mishkan or a Bais Hamikdash. G-d wanted that every person's actions would radiate the awareness of His presence in all instances, without the need of a Mishakan. (Sforno) Once the Jews lost their capacity to personally reflect G-d's presence, the Mishkan replaced what we should have each been. Therefore, our capacity to recognize and display G-dliness must be symbolically represented through the various components of the Mishkan described in Terumah and Tizaveh.
-
There is a possibility that Nafatali Bennett will one day be the Israeli PM and that Uri Ariel will be his number 2.
Do these fellows really have the courage of their convictions? ie without a Divine Sign, without a Moshiach, without approval from the "Gedolim", and facing the mortal opposition of the ENTIRE world (including 95% of the Israeli populace + the Haredim) and the knowledge that it would result in Israel being immediately attacked and could start WW3 and literally the End of the World, would they really order the D9 Dubi bulldozers on to the Temple Mount to commence destruction/construction?!
(http://www.imemc.org/attachments/oct2010/caterpillard9bulldozer.jpg)
We know that in 1967 immediately following the capture of the Har Habayis firebrand Chief Rabbi Shlomoh Goren would have.
If R.Kahane had become PM in 1988, would he have ordered the bulldozer engines fired up? Or would he have been more circumspect?
And Chaim?
-
There is a possibility that Nafatali Bennett will one day be the Israeli PM and that Uri Ariel will be his number 2.
Do these fellows really have the courage of their convictions? ie without a Divine Sign, without a Moshiach, without approval from the "Gedolim", and facing the mortal opposition of the ENTIRE world (including 95% of the Israeli populace + the Haredim) and the knowledge that it would result in Israel being immediately attacked and could start WW3 and literally the End of the World, would they really order the D9 Dubi bulldozers on to the Temple Mount to commence destruction/construction?!
(http://www.imemc.org/attachments/oct2010/caterpillard9bulldozer.jpg)
If R.Kahane had become PM in 1988, would he have ordered the bulldozer engines fired up? Or would he have been more circumspect?
We know that in 1967 Chief Rabbi Shlomoh Goren would have.
And Chaim?
Yerusha, this is exactly my point. Without a form of Jewish unity the building itself will be pointless. If all religious Jews would be together on this then I think that we could begin building. This is where I believe the real miracle needs to happen. Moshiach certainly would be a great thing to bring about this unity, but without our work of 'Kiruv' we will not attain Moshiach or the rebuilding.
I believe that Kahane could have brought more unity to the Jewish people had he not been killed by the assassin. Since I also believe that everything which happens must be OK with Hashem (for he let it happen and had foreknowledge of it) then I must come to the conclusion that the time was not right for Moshiach or the Temple. I agree that Rabbi Kahane was the closest thing to the actual Moshiach in our generation but the time was not right.
-
Muman gladd you brought the spies into this- Their underlying factor was both fear of the enemy (after all "we looked like grasshoppers in their eyes") and fear of loosing (personal) power. Perfectly explains what I said earlier.
And didnt you first try to stand by the "Mikdash from heaven", now your saying it isn't literal?
Their needs to be unity, yes I agree, but that unity must precisely focus on rebuilding the Holy Temple, on making Israel a Jewish state and on working practically on making Am Yisrael successful instead of the wishful thinking, passavist type of existence and just waiting for "Temples to fall from heaven" and Moshiah just poppoing up and curing all our ills.
Correct. The lack of unity was due to love of money and hatred of one another (as stated by Talmud Yerushalmi in Tractate Yoma 1:1). As Rav Bar Hayim points out, love of and pursuit of money is directly involved in the internecine struggles and fragmentation of the Jewish people that we saw in the 2nd Temple period - All the factionalism that comes with a pursuit of money and power at the expense of unified vision and purpose for a Jewish Torah nation. Because striving for personal power in rivalry with others cannot coexist with an ideological leadership in line with Jewish principles and goals. This factionalism, evident in the many "sects" ie sadducees, biryonim, essenes, etc (I think there were more which may not even be mentioned by the Talmud), led to our downfall and is the precise current reason why we still do not have a Temple. The same desire for political hegemony over factions of the Jewish people dominates over the vision of a unified entity which seeks to do Hashem's will on a national level. Just as some commentaries point out, if we live in a generation where the Temple is still not built, it is indicative that we are guilty of the same sins which brought about its destruction.
Labor and Likud constantly fight each other over who gets to play hero and implement the Oslo Accords. Here are 2 equivalent groups with the same exact national goals (albeit evil national goals which contradict the Torah) and even they can't just get along and make their own desires manifest. That's only one example because in the Torah world we have competing factions that undermine each other and lack vision too.
-
I wonder if there are any Reform, Conservative, or even Karaite that are right leaning that we could influence, and work with? I don't know... Nope! We bash them to much!
We're right you're wrong...
-
I wonder if there are any Reform, Conservative, or even Karaite that are right leaning that we could influence, and work with? I don't know... Nope! We bash them to much!
We're right you're wrong...
They decided to stop following Judaism. So how can we "work with them?" They basically said, the Jewish nation as it was constituted is not acceptable to us therefore we separate from it and start our own. And you blame US for not working with THEM?
-
I wonder if there are any Reform, Conservative, or even Karaite that are right leaning that we could influence, and work with? I don't know... Nope! We bash them to much!
We're right you're wrong...
When you say "work with" what exactly do you mean? If it means to influence them and all Jews (in the greater scheme all people) in the right direction I agree. BUT if it means accepting some positions that are anti-Torah for the sake of agreement then their is no possibility and no right to do soo.
-
I knew I would get somebody going by that. Where I live(the second largest city in the state) there is only a Reform Synagogue... You mean to tell me they are ALL leftists? But if we type cast the Reform, ect. They will never work with us, and they will never come back to true Torah law! You have to remember, they think they are right... You can't bash them and then say join us... You have to interest them and then lead them with a gentle hand.
The Temple was destroyed because everyone split up and was fighting with each other. Where did that get them? And today it is a 100 fold!
-
When you say "work with" what exactly do you mean? If it means to influence them and all Jews (in the greater scheme all people) in the right direction I agree. BUT if it means accepting some positions that are anti-Torah for the sake of agreement then their is no possibility and no right to do soo.
No, I don't mean compromise... I mean lead them to truth softly.
-
When you say "work with" what exactly do you mean? If it means to influence them and all Jews (in the greater scheme all people) in the right direction I agree. BUT if it means accepting some positions that are anti-Torah for the sake of agreement then their is no possibility and no right to do soo.
This is exactly true. I have said many times that there is a difference between accepting sin and tolerating it. If a person makes a sin, against Hashem, or against his people, and he works on rectifying it then he can be forgiven. But people who persist in their wrong beliefs and actions, after being rebuked, are going on the wrong road.
I don't hate Reform or Conservative for being reform or conservative, heck I was Bar Mitzvahed in a Conservative shul and I know that there are righteous people involved with such things. But those who hold beliefs which run contrary to Jewish beliefs and purport to be teaching a new 'liberal' version of the Torah are nothing more than modern day heretics and informers.
I am glad an Orthodox Rabbi did Kiruv at the shul which I first discovered after my Teshuva. Because of HaKeres HaTov (Appreciating the good) I cannot hate that shul (even though they know I disagree about many things there) and I know that shul is pro-Israel (of course not at the level we are pro-Israel). It is my hope we can set a good example and bring more of these lost Jews back to a more authentic and Torah inspired life.
-
I believe Ephraim is correct in his approach, push away with the left hand and pull in with the right hand... I wrote about this a few years ago...
-
http://halakhah.com/sotah/sotah_47.html
Sotah 47a
Our Rabbis have taught: Always let the left hand thrust away and the right hand draw near. Not like Elisha who thrust Gehazi away with both his hands (and not like R. Joshua b. Perahiah who thrust one of his disciples away with both his hands).11 How is it with Elisha? As it is written: And Naaman said: Be content, take two talents,12 and it is written: And he said unto him, Went not my heart with thee when the man turned again from his chariot to meet thee? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and oliveyards, and sheep and oxen, and manservants and maidservants?13 But had he received all these things? Silver and garments were what he had received! — R. Isaac said: At that time Elisha was engaged [in the study of the Law concerning] the eight kinds of [unclean] creeping things;14 so he said to [Gehazi], 'You wicked person, the time has arrived for you to receive the reward for [studying the law of] the eight creeping things.'15 The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee and unto thy seed for ever.16
-
I knew I would get somebody going by that. Where I live(the second largest city in the state) there is only a Reform Synagogue... You mean to tell me they are ALL leftists? But if we type cast the Reform, ect. They will never work with us, and they will never come back to true Torah law! You have to remember, they think they are right... You can't bash them and then say join us... You have to interest them and then lead them with a gentle hand.
The Temple was destroyed because everyone split up and was fighting with each other. Where did that get them? And today it is a 100 fold!
I think you are very confused. Will elaborate later.
Btw, I was raised as a reform Jew, just for reference..
-
I think you are very confused. Will elaborate later.
Btw, I was raised as a reform Jew, just for reference..
I would be interested to understand what it is which you think is wrong with Ephraims statement.
I too do not believe we can just bash reform and expect them to do anything but attempt to rationalize their position. Only through outreach can we bring them back. But you have another idea... Please explain.
Also what we call 'reform' is not monolithic. I have met people at the 'progressive' shul which I first attended who are not die-hard liberals. There are independents and some center-right conservatives (politically) and this is why that shul held a very big pro-Israel rally recently.
-
I too do not believe we can just bash reform and expect them to do anything but attempt to rationalize their position. Only through outreach can we bring them back. But you have another idea...
Once again, I request that you not put words into my mouth (or to anyone else's for that matter)
-
I knew I would get somebody going by that. Where I live(the second largest city in the state) there is only a Reform Synagogue... You mean to tell me they are ALL leftists? But if we type cast the Reform, ect. They will never work with us, and they will never come back to true Torah law! You have to remember, they think they are right... You can't bash them and then say join us... You have to interest them and then lead them with a gentle hand.
The Temple was destroyed because everyone split up and was fighting with each other. Where did that get them? And today it is a 100 fold!
1. Who exactly did we refuse to work with, whom you believe we should have? (I don't believe I'll get an actual answer to that one).
2. Do realize that there were traditional Jews, and the factions formed specifically to fight against the traditional Jews and Jewish system. That's what the reform movement was, it's what the haskala was and became, and it's what the conservative movement is. And it's just about every leftwing Jewish organization today having those same goals. To separate from the Jewish people and form their own "stream" (of course with their own leaders and hierarchy and clergy - read POWER, MONEY, AUTHORITY). So the traditional, faithful Jews are NOT the ones who caused these rifts when you are referring to so-called movements of fake Judaism.
3. There is no one on this forum (that I'm aware of at least) that bashes reform Jews. We criticize the REFORM MOVEMENT because it's an evil movement that sought to eradicate Judaism by christianizing it, removing the obligations the founders didn't like, and gaining approval of the non-Jews to be accepted by them. It is not Judaism. Oh, and it is also pro Arab and was an antizionist movement when it was formed (and arguably still is today, although they claim otherwise). So the people leading this sick movement are simply traitors. That doesn't mean all the followers, congregants, or just people affiliated to the movement are traitors or evil.
So where did you get the idea that we bash the reform JEWS who are either born into this movement or don't know any better, or where did we say every single one of them is a leftist? No, the movement is a leftist movement - by definition. Obviously there are good people who are being misled by reform so-called "rabbis" and can be convinced of the truth and shown what real Judaism is. That has happened to many, myself included. Chaim is doing that type of outreach at all times with his programs and videos. It is outreach to already-religious (traditional orthodox) Jews to influence their opinions, and it is also outreach to reform/conserv/secular/atheist etc Jews to encourage them to become religious and also to influence their opinions. Who at this forum in your view is not on board with that?
What's also likely to happen is that if there is a right-leaning Jew within the reform movement, he'll simply become alienated by the reform "temple's" political grandstanding and just stop attending. Because the reform "temple" itself is actually a tool of political activism. This can also be sometimes known as Such-and-such Place of Liberal Judaism as opposed to "reform Judaism." Either way, they are constantly pumping the leftist cause inside even more so than they promote religion of any kind. So a person with generally rightwing views will naturally be turned off by that and turned away. I'm sure that also happens. So where does that person turn? Maybe to an orthodox shul? Maybe to a kiruv program? Maybe to JTF? Most likely, he just doesnt go to shul and lives as a secular guy, just as before. After a shul experience that is the equivalent of a save the whales campaign, who's going to want to look for another shul?
As for Karaites, they also do NOT follow Judaism, they broke away and made up their own laws and rejected the authority of the transmission of Torah over the ages from Moshe on down. Rambam writes that we should reach out to them - NOT to be their friends or make them like us, but to convince them to change their ways and embrace their true traditions, which is real Judaism, what we follow and what their pre-karaitic ancestors also followed. So you see, we're supposed to try to get them to accept the truth, not hide the truth and pretend everything is ok so that they like us and feel "united." Their way is wrong and ours is right, period. That does not constitute baseless hatred.
I find your accusations outrageous and out of place.
-
Once again, I request that you not put words into my mouth (or to anyone else's for that matter)
So you think calling them 'deformed' and other such names is not bashing? Also I did not say anything about what you said, just responding because you seemed in disagreement with what Ephraim said, which seemed to me to be completely rational.
PS: I am just as guilty as the next because at times I am very frustrated at the entire 'reform/conservative/progressive' movements of Judaism and I have resorted to calling them 'deformed'. They are blurring the line of what is a Jew and leading many astray. But as I said before there are certainly good people there.
And I agree there is nothing to talk about with Karaites, they are not even Jews...
-
So you think calling them 'deformed' and other such names is not bashing? Also I did not say anything about what you said, just responding because you seemed in disagreement with what Ephraim said, which seemed to me to be completely rational.
PS: I am just as guilty as the next because at times I am very frustrated at the entire 'reform/conservative/progressive' movements of Judaism and I have resorted to calling them 'deformed'. They are blurring the line of what is a Jew and leading many astray. But as I said before there are certainly good people there.
You just never learn, do you? Can't you just apologize instead of arguing that you didn't do anything when it's clear as day that you DID put words in my mouth? And all I did in response was to ask you not to do that. You can't respect that request? You can't admit that it's even a problem at least?
Now since you're denying it, let me refresh your memory (even though I directly quoted this in my response anyway, so I think you are just pretending).
I too do not believe we can just bash reform and expect them to do anything but attempt to rationalize their position. Only through outreach can we bring them back. But you have another idea...
Bold added for emphasis. You interpreted Ephraim's statement, assumed that there is no other possible interpretation that a human brain could possibly come up with and so yours must be the only one, then assumed my opinion as being directly contradictory to your idea that "only through outreach we can bring them back" and "we can(not) just bash" them. You clearly put words in my mouth to the effect that I think the opposite of those 2 statements. And yet, I never said that, and I do not believe that. Wouldn't I be the one who would know what I believe?
So that was what I meant when I asked you not to put words in my mouth. It means, "Don't ascribe opinions to me which I myself did not state as my own opinions." Can you respect that request and apply it to other members here too? It would erase a ton of friction if you would just be willing to abide by that basic principle.
I jokingly and disparagingly call the movement Deformed (the movement, not the people who are members in a deform shul and certainly not every single one of those people!) because it is deformed. It's fake Judaism. It has led the Jewish people astray, it is fraudulent, it is traitorous, and it supports our enemies. Not to mention, you know, it is a rebellion against God and his Torah? So they deserve far worse than a light pun like "Deform movement" thank you very much.
-
You just never learn, do you? Can't you just apologize instead of arguing that you didn't do anything when it's clear as day that you DID put words in my mouth? And all I did in response was to ask you not to do that. You can't respect that request? You can't admit wrongdoing?
Now since you're denying it, let me refresh your memory (even though I directly quoted this in my response anyway, so I think you are just pretending).
Bold added for emphasis. You interpreted Ephraim's statement, assumed that there is no other possible interpretation that a human brain could possibly come up with and so yours must be the only one, then assumed my opinion as being directly contradictory to your idea that "only through outreach we can bring them back" and "we can(not) just bash" them. You clearly put words in my mouth to the effect that I think the opposite of those 2 statements. And yet, I never said that, and I do not believe that. Wouldn't I be the one who would know what I believe?
I jokingly and disparagingly call the movement Deformed (the movement, not the people who are members in a deform shul and certainly not every single one of those people!) because it is deformed. It's fake Judaism. It has led the Jewish people astray, it is fraudulent, it is traitorous, and it supports our enemies. Not to mention, you know, it is a rebellion against God and his Torah? So they deserve far worse than a light pun like "Deform movement" thank you very much.
KWRBT,
You must have had a bad fast or something because you are misreading what I wrote and trying to find fault where there is none..
Did you not write:
I think you are very confused. Will elaborate later.
Btw, I was raised as a reform Jew, just for reference..
This is what I am referring to when I said you 'have another idea' and I wanted to hear it. I had no idea you would read it the way you did. I wanted to hear why you thought that 'Ephraim was confused'. Sometimes KWRBT you seem overly defensive to me...
-
And in support of Ephraim I would like to point out that it is important to state that the problem is with the leaders of the 'reform' movement and not the people brought up in it. This is why I think Ephraim had the right idea, to do outreach to all kinds of Jews, and you seemed to disagree.
-
And another note on this current issue...
I don't think we should support reform causes, we should rebuke them. But we should rebuke them according to how the Torah and sages tell us how to rebuke them. As I posted above, concerning pushing away with the left while bringing close with the right... We will not change the 'reform movement' but we will save some Jews from almost certain 'soul death'.
This is why I think what Ephraim said was the almost correct approach, except for including Karaites which have abandoned Jewish beliefs a long long time ago.
-
KWRBT,
You must have had a bad fast or something because you are misreading what I wrote and trying to find fault where there is none..
Did you not write:
This is what I am referring to when I said you 'have another idea' and I wanted to hear it. I had no idea you would read it the way you did. I wanted to hear why you thought that 'Ephraim was confused'. Sometimes KWRBT you seem overly defensive to me...
Muman.
You wrote this:
I too do not believe we can just bash reform and expect them to do anything but attempt to rationalize their position. Only through outreach can we bring them back. But you have another idea...
Bold added for emphasis. You listed 2 ideas: "only through outreach we can bring them back" and "we can(not) just bash" them. By writing "But you have another idea" directly following that, you assumed (incorrectly) that I disagree with those 2 concepts. Hence, you ascribed the following beliefs to me: That we "can bring them back without outreach" (or maybe you meant "we don't need to bring them back") and "we can just bash them."
I don't know how I can make it clearer. I don't know how you cannot see that you put those words in my mouth.
And what does it stem from? Because Ephraim made a comment, which I thought about in a completely different way than you, but you assumed that YOUR INTERPRETATION OF EPHRAIM'S STATEMENT WAS THE ONLY POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION THAT A HUMAN BRAIN COULD COME UP WITH, and therefore, since I wrote that Ephraim was confused, it MUST BE, it absolutely MUST BE that not only did I interpret his comment exactly as you did, but I also disagreed with the concept he put forth (according to you as you interpret him). Did you ever stop to think that perhaps I viewed his comment in a totally different way than you? Why is this so hard to understand? Am I not being clear?
-
And in support of Ephraim I would like to point out that it is important to state that the problem is with the leaders of the 'reform' movement and not the people brought up in it. This is why I think Ephraim had the right idea, to do outreach to all kinds of Jews, and you seemed to disagree.
Welcome to the loony bin.
He didn't say this. You just read one of my latest comments and now ascribe my own view onto what he said.
Quote me a place where Ephraim distinguished between members and leaders in this thread. Please I'm begging you, quote it for me.
Or maybe you just want to quote my latest post and switch the name to Ephraim? You are really out of line here Muman.
I called him confused because he sounds like he is saying we need to accept the movements. Or that our rejection of the movements and bashing the movements is somehow equivalent to bashing all individuals associated with it. When that's not true.
Criticizing the Deform movement is just telling the truth. If we hide the truth, people will just think it's fine and they will never realize the evil history behind it.
-
Muman.
You wrote this:
Bold added for emphasis. You listed 2 ideas: "only through outreach we can bring them back" and "we can(not) just bash" them. By writing "But you have another idea" directly following that, you assumed (incorrectly) that I disagree with those 2 concepts. Hence, you ascribed the following beliefs to me: That we "can bring them back without outreach" (or maybe you meant "we don't need to bring them back") and "we can just bash them."
I don't know how I can make it clearer. I don't know how you cannot see that you put those words in my mouth.
And what does it stem from? Because Ephraim made a comment, which I thought about in a completely different way than you, but you assumed that YOUR INTERPRETATION OF EPHRAIM'S STATEMENT WAS THE ONLY POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION THAT A HUMAN BRAIN COULD COME UP WITH, and therefore, since I wrote that Ephraim was confused, it MUST BE, it absolutely MUST BE that not only did I interpret his comment exactly as you did, but I also disagreed with the concept he put forth (according to you as you interpret him). Did you ever stop to think that perhaps I viewed his comment in a totally different way than you? Why is this so hard to understand? Am I not being clear?
KWRBT,
As always I seek peace between Jews. If what I wrote struck you as incorrect I apologize. I had no intention of sparking a problem with you and as you point out here it is possible we had a major misunderstanding.
Forgive me for not expressing my opinion in a way which avoids confusion.
-
Welcome to the loony bin.
He didn't say this. You just read one of my latest comments and now ascribe my own view onto what he said.
Quote me a place where Ephraim distinguished between members and leaders in this thread. Please I'm begging you, quote it for me.
Or maybe you just want to quote my latest post and switch the name to Ephraim? You are really out of line here Muman.
I called him confused because he sounds like he is saying we need to accept the movements. Or that our rejection of the movements and bashing the movements is somehow equivalent to bashing all individuals associated with it. When that's not true.
KWRBT,
And in support of Ephraim I would like to point out that it is important to state that the problem is with the leaders of the 'reform' movement and not the people brought up in it. This is why I think Ephraim had the right idea, to do outreach to all kinds of Jews, and you seemed to disagree.
I cannot explain why you are reading what I wrote and not understanding it.
Maybe you didn't learn how to comprehend English in school. But I will explain to you again what I was saying.
Ephraim is correct that we should not bash reform as often as we do, even though you think you are bashing the institution the person who belongs to the 'reform temple' looks at it as a personal bash against his 'version' of our faith. I completely understand what he was saying there.
My point in the last post you had a problem with points out that when rebuking the 'reform' movement we always mention it is the leaders of the 'reform' movement who are deserving the rebuke.
-
KWRBT,
Maybe you didn't learn how to comprehend English in school.
You will have to take it up with my teachers.
-
You will have to take it up with my teachers.
I just said that because I am frustrated at this current thread. I hope you know that I still love you like a Jewish brother.
-
Ephraim is correct that we should not bash reform as often as we do, even though you think you are bashing the institution the person who belongs to the 'reform temple' looks at it as a personal bash against his 'version' of our faith. I completely understand what he was saying there.
That's interesting, but the problem is, Ephraim didn't say this. When I asked him for clarification he didn't offer any of what you just wrote. It seems to me like you are just putting your own words into what he said. Care to take a minute to reread his comments, and observe how your statements are NOT apparent in Ephraim's own words?
Are you saying these things in his name because he elaborated to you in private message? Because you read his mind? Or some other reason? I can't be expected to telepathically glean messages which aren't written in a forum post. And it was Ephraim's response to me that led me to explain away some confusion (which you took exception to). So if your words were not in his post, why do you take exception? Again, it's because you interpreted him as saying something (which is not even just a single interpretation out of many, it seems like it's not even a possible one!) and assumed no one else could have understood his comments differently so I therefore must be disagreeing with some fundamental concepts you raised. We are right back where we started.
As to your point stated in this post, I completely disagree. Are you really suggesting that we need to hide the truth in order to appeal to reform congregants and avoid hurting their feelings? I thought we are obligated to tell the truth. Especially about a movement which pretends to be Judaism but actually drives Jews away from God and Torah. There is not one Jewish rabbi in history who said like you imply, that we need to pretend Reform Movement is ok so as to not upset the sensibilities of its practitioners. Not one. If criticizing is "bashing," then bash we must.
By telling the truth about that evil movement, we may open some peoples' eyes. By telling them their so-called movement is ok or acceptable, we let them continue on their path without having a second thought or giving it any thought whatsoever.
When I found out that the founders of Reform movement sought to "christianize" Judaism with such things as an organ player, forbidding people to wear kippas, changing Jerusalem into Berlin, and discarding mitzvot wholecloth, that was a shocking event which instantly ended my life as a self-assured "Reform Jew" who goes to shul once or twice a year and considers "my Judaism" equal to anyone else's, (just that some take it more literally). That was actually what I believed and had no reason to question it or even think about it. But then I learned about the Reformers and that past life ended instantly (beginning what became a long journey).
My point in the last post you had a problem with points out that when rebuking the 'reform' movement we always mention it is the leaders of the 'reform' movement who are deserving the rebuke.
Are you saying we always do? Or that we always should? What you are saying is not clear.
If you are saying we always do, then what's the problem? I guess you are saying that we always *should make that distinction. Well ok.
The founders and leaders of reform movement want to see the Jewish people destroyed, they support our enemies, they are anti-Israel (founded as such, and still are with their oslo agenda even though they claim they have changed stripes to "pro-Israel"), they don't believe in God or the Torah, and they are traitors. That's pretty bad huh.
-
I just said that because I am frustrated at this current thread. I hope you know that I still love you like a Jewish brother.
If we met in person, I would give you a nice friendly handshake. I would say hug, but I'm not a touchy feely person. I don't take it personally when you argue with me.
-
"1. Who exactly did we refuse to work with, whom you believe we should have? (I don't believe I'll get an actual answer to that one)." From KWRBT.
I won't answer it, because I never said it... Are you putting words in my mouth?
-
That's interesting, but the problem is, Ephraim didn't say this. When I asked him for clarification he didn't offer any of what you just wrote. It seems to me like you are just putting your own words into what he said. Care to take a minute to reread his comments, and observe how your statements are NOT apparent in Ephraim's own words?
Are you saying these things in his name because he elaborated to you in private message? Because you read his mind? Or some other reason? I can't be expected to telepathically glean messages which aren't written in a forum post. And it was Ephraim's response to me that led me to explain away some confusion (which you took exception to). So if your words were not in his post, why do you take exception? Again, it's because you interpreted him as saying something (which is not even just a single interpretation out of many, it seems like it's not even a possible one!) and assumed no one else could have understood his comments differently so I therefore must be disagreeing with some fundamental concepts you raised. We are right back where we started.
As to your point stated in this post, I completely disagree. Are you really suggesting that we need to hide the truth in order to appeal to reform congregants and avoid hurting their feelings? I thought we are obligated to tell the truth. Especially about a movement which pretends to be Judaism but actually drives Jews away from God and Torah. There is not one Jewish rabbi in history who said like you imply, that we need to pretend Reform Movement is ok so as to not upset the sensibilities of its practitioners. Not one. If criticizing is "bashing," then bash we must.
By telling the truth about that evil movement, we may open some peoples' eyes. By telling them their so-called movement is ok or acceptable, we let them continue on their path without having a second thought or giving it any thought whatsoever.
When I found out that the founders of Reform movement sought to "christianize" Judaism with such things as an organ player, forbidding people to wear kippas, changing Jerusalem into Berlin, and discarding mitzvot wholecloth, that was a shocking event which instantly ended my life as a self-assured "Reform Jew" who goes to shul once or twice a year and considers "my Judaism" equal to anyone else's, (just that some take it more literally). That was actually what I believed and had no reason to question it or even think about it. But then I learned about the Reformers and that past life ended instantly (beginning what became a long journey).
Are you saying we always do? Or that we always should? What you are saying is not clear.
If you are saying we always do, then what's the problem? I guess you are saying that we always *should make that distinction. Well ok.
The founders and leaders of reform movement want to see the Jewish people destroyed, they support our enemies, they are anti-Israel (founded as such, and still are with their oslo agenda even though they claim they have changed stripes to "pro-Israel"), they don't believe in God or the Torah, and they are traitors. That's pretty bad huh.
Muman knew exactly what I was talking about. It must of been the psychic messages I sent him. Lol.
You mean to tell me they are ALL leftists?
?? ?
My whole point was that there are lost Jews out there, and if we are to abrasive we will scare them away. We have a great message, but we have to get them to take the bate, before they can truly hear...
-
"1. Who exactly did we refuse to work with, whom you believe we should have? (I don't believe I'll get an actual answer to that one)." From KWRBT.
I won't answer it, because I never said it... Are you putting words in my mouth?
You said "if we typecast the reform, they will never work with us."
-
You said "if we typecast the reform, they will never work with us."
What I thought I meant by "typecast" was to label them all the same. I never said "we" won't work with them... But I don't want to scare them away either... There are so many divisions in every branch, how the Heck are we going to bring lost Jews back to Torah and unite under ONE G-d if we can't agree with the sects even closest to us?(I'm not a Jew)
-
What I thought I meant by "typecast" was to label them all the same. I never said "we" won't work with them... But I don't want to scare them away either... There are so many divisions in every branch, how the Heck are we going to bring lost Jews back to Torah and unite under ONE G-d if we can't agree with the sects even closest to us?(I'm not a Jew)
There you go again. We cannot AGREE with anti-Jewish anti-Torah so-called "sects." Reform is not a "sect." It was a movement formed to replace and destroy Judaism, to cause Jews to stop keeping mitzvot and stop believing in Torah. Expecting us to AGREE with them is insane. That doesn't mean there are not decent Jews within their ranks being misled by a distorted movement. In fact, there definitely are!
Being lovey dovey with antithetical ideologies doesn't win you any respect or admiration. Stating clearly the differences in ideology and why ours is true to Jewish tradition is the self-respect we need to display.
Now, do you not comprehend that the vast majority of these movements and organizations (leftists like reform movement) do not "work with us" is because they are ideologically opposed to what we stand for? It is not because we don't play nice or don't pretend enough their movements and beliefs or lack thereof are acceptable when they aren't. It's because they hate viscerally everything we stand for and every ideological position we believe in. Since you are telling me you are not Jewish, maybe that's a big reason it is hard for you to understand the dynamics at play between various Jewish and so-called Jewish groups. You're seeing it from the outside.
-
:clap:
I could have used you, a former Reform Jew, on my deployment. We had a chaplain who was a female Reconstructionist phony rabbi who I came to find out wasn't even Jewish (her mom converted to a phony form of Judaism). I got together with the group she led in order to talk about Torah (only Jewish group out there), and we were studying Parashat Shlach Lecha, which talks about the spies who scouted out Israel as well as the mitzvah of tzitzit. She asked for my opinion on the parasha and I said it was interesting how the minority of spies wanted to conquer the land while the majority were afraid--just like the modern situation where a minority of Jews want to rebuild the Temple but the majority of Jews don't because they are afraid or care more about what the Gentiles will think about them than what the Torah teaches, and I said that maybe the Jews should just show some faith, don their tzitzit and rebuild the Temple. She was genuinely angry and offended that I said this. It was a simple dvar Torah and she got upset. She gave me some nonsense about how Orthodox Judaism was just one of many interpretations of Judaism and how "liberal Judaism" was just as valid and in line with tradition and how I was disparaging these Jews. She said if I didn't stop being offensive and political, I would not be allowed to attend anymore. I told her that she was being offensive when she said how much she disliked parts of the Torah that talked about the Temple and sacrifice and rendered them irrelevant, along with disparaging Orthodox Jews just because they're in the minority. Once she said that the Exodus and Oral Torah were complete fantasies. She said it's not her problem if I'm offended because I'm not Jewish and her job is to minister to the Jews. She said the Navy gave her the authority to represent Judaism, and I said the U.S. Navy is not the Sanhedrin...and then I had to leave :) I would have said more if it wasn't for the fact that she outranked me by a lot. I wanted to say that she wasn't even Jewish and a Reconstructionist smicha is like getting your smicha in a box of cracker jacks, but then I probably would have been thrown overboard.
In conclusion, these Deform types are delusional God-haters and the only way to wake them out of their slumber is to shake them up a bit. That's really the only way to have influence because they are wired not to care, and making them feel like they are doing something wrong is the only way to make them think about what they are doing. It's the only way to keep them up at night thinking about these principles.
Do you think this "rabbi" sings "ma oz tzur" in Chanuka without realizing what it says ?
-
There you go again. We cannot AGREE with anti-Jewish anti-Torah so-called "sects." Reform is not a "sect." It was a movement formed to replace and destroy Judaism, to cause Jews to stop keeping mitzvot and stop believing in Torah. Expecting us to AGREE with them is insane. That doesn't mean there are not decent Jews within their ranks being misled by a distorted movement. In fact, there definitely are!
Being lovey dovey with antithetical ideologies doesn't win you any respect or admiration. Stating clearly the differences in ideology and why ours is true to Jewish tradition is the self-respect we need to display.
Now, do you not comprehend that the vast majority of these movements and organizations (leftists like reform movement) do not "work with us" is because they are ideologically opposed to what we stand for? It is not because we don't play nice or don't pretend enough their movements and beliefs or lack thereof are acceptable when they aren't. It's because they hate viscerally everything we stand for and every ideological position we believe in. Since you are telling me you are not Jewish, maybe that's a big reason it is hard for you to understand the dynamics at play between various Jewish and so-called Jewish groups. You're seeing it from the outside.
Sorry I was not more clear with the sentence you highlighted, I was referring more to Orthodox there. I once saw followers of Yisroel Ber Odesser bashing Rabbi Schneerson.
-
I have addressed this multiple times. We don't have to agree with, endorse, support, give strength to, or otherwise say anything good concerning the so-called strains of Judaism which are heretical. I do not, nor to I think I ever said, that reform and conservative and others are acceptable forms of worship and observance according to Jewish custom and law.
But that being said I think that individual Jews who attend such synagogues are not all evil leftists, and not all of them accept the heretical beliefs which are taught by some of the so-called 'Rabbis' in those institutions. I know this from my experience and as a result I do not hate (or even feel ill will) toward the majority of true Jews who are involved with those congregations.
I have witnesses kiruv from Torah Jews, Orthodox Jews reaching out to Jews who have not grown up in a house of Torah and Mitzvot. I myself was enlightened and now I find that I too can bring Jews out of those dark places.
Judaism is a decentralized religion meaning that anyone can start a minyan (with ten Jewish men) and perform the services. Thus each of us, who has gained sufficient knowledge, can have Shabbat minyans where the prayers are said in the traditional manner, and even Torah readings can be done without a Rabbi if the leader knows how to Layn (read the Torah with the correct chant). If you don't like the congregation because of it's heretical ideas, do not go there, but try to bring some others with you who are seeking true Torah Judaism.
My 95 year old WWII veteran friend has told us many times about when he was in the service they didn't have Jewish chaplains many times. He and his Orthodox buddies would set up their own Pesach seders and Shabbat Torah readings and they would do them in traditional Orthodox minhagim (customs).
It is my hope that some of us good Torah Jews could do more outreach to those Jews caught in the darkness of the reform and conservative movements. I am confident that we could find many who would be willing to listen to the soft rebuke, not the harsh rebuke which many times we give, and start moving towards a more Torah-True path (including being more Zionistic in the religious sense).
These ideas are not intended to be argued about rather to be thought about, and hopefully brought to action.
-
Sorry I was not more clear with the sentence you highlighted, I was referring more to Orthodox there. I once saw followers of Yisroel Ber Odesser bashing Rabbi Schneerson.
Unfortunately, there would have been no reason to bash him if he hadn't allowed his chasidim to proclaim him Moschiach and do nothing about it. That suddenly made people realize this ideology is veering away from Judaism. Like a reform only with orthodox foundation. I've never heard of the rabbi you mentioned but he's certainly not the only one in history to have a problem with the meshichists of chabad. But Jtf is friendly to chabad (non-meshichist) and has chabad members so I'm not sure the relevance of this note in regards to this discussion.
-
:clap:
I could have used you, a former Reform Jew, on my deployment. We had a chaplain who was a female Reconstructionist phony rabbi who I came to find out wasn't even Jewish (her mom converted to a phony form of Judaism). I got together with the group she led in order to talk about Torah (only Jewish group out there), and we were studying Parashat Shlach Lecha, which talks about the spies who scouted out Israel as well as the mitzvah of tzitzit. She asked for my opinion on the parasha and I said it was interesting how the minority of spies wanted to conquer the land while the majority were afraid--just like the modern situation where a minority of Jews want to rebuild the Temple but the majority of Jews don't because they are afraid or care more about what the Gentiles will think about them than what the Torah teaches, and I said that maybe the Jews should just show some faith, don their tzitzit and rebuild the Temple. She was genuinely angry and offended that I said this. It was a simple dvar Torah and she got upset. She gave me some nonsense about how Orthodox Judaism was just one of many interpretations of Judaism and how "liberal Judaism" was just as valid and in line with tradition and how I was disparaging these Jews. She said if I didn't stop being offensive and political, I would not be allowed to attend anymore. I told her that she was being offensive when she said how much she disliked parts of the Torah that talked about the Temple and sacrifice and rendered them irrelevant, along with disparaging Orthodox Jews just because they're in the minority. Once she said that the Exodus and Oral Torah were complete fantasies. She said it's not her problem if I'm offended because I'm not Jewish and her job is to minister to the Jews. She said the Navy gave her the authority to represent Judaism, and I said the U.S. Navy is not the Sanhedrin...and then I had to leave :) I would have said more if it wasn't for the fact that she outranked me by a lot. I wanted to say that she wasn't even Jewish and a Reconstructionist smicha is like getting your smicha in a box of cracker jacks, but then I probably would have been thrown overboard.
In conclusion, these Deform types are delusional God-haters and the only way to wake them out of their slumber is to shake them up a bit. That's really the only way to have influence because they are wired not to care, and making them feel like they are doing something wrong is the only way to make them think about what they are doing. It's the only way to keep them up at night thinking about these principles.
Wow a big yasher koach to you dan ben noach. Good for you for standing up to her.
Even if you didn't change her sick biases there at least may have been other Jews around who go the message that what she is presenting is not authentic.
-
Dan,
Is there any Chabad presence in your group? If not maybe you could see if there is a desire for true Jewish observance in your deployment and if so you may be able to get Chabad involved in providing kosher Rabbis and kosher food, etc...
I know that around here Chabad does services for the local air base.
-
"once saw followers of Yisroel Ber Odesser bashing Rabbi Schneerson. "
Actually I have a feeling its the pot calling the kettle black in this case. As most likely its both groups who went off the derech and both are types of Meshihists. One Chabad the other fringe of Breslov who thought that Odesser was the Meshiah or to use Hassidic terminology a Bihinat of Rebbe Nachman mi Breslov who was Bihinat of Moshe/Moshiah.
I have a feeling that you encountered those people.
-
Unfortunately, there would have been no reason to bash him if he hadn't allowed his chasidim to proclaim him Moschiach and do nothing about it. That suddenly made people realize this ideology is veering away from Judaism. Like a reform only with orthodox foundation. I've never heard of the rabbi you mentioned but he's certainly not the only one in history to have a problem with the meshichists of chabad. But Jtf is friendly to chabad (non-meshichist) and has chabad members so I'm not sure the relevance of this note in regards to this discussion.
KWRBT,
You made a comment without even checking if that was the reason this Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser supposedly 'bashed' Rabbi Schneerson. Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser is a Breslover Rabbi who has made some claims which you would find out of the norm. He claims to have received a message from Shamayim from Rabbi Nachman who by many Mitnagdim also didn't quell his followers into not believe Rabbi Nachman was Moshiach. As a quasi-follower of Breslov I know that Rebbe Nachman did not say he was Moshiach, and neither did Rabbi Schneerson... So I doubt that what you suggest is the cause of Rabbi Odesser knocking the Chabad Rebbe...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Reb_Yisroel_Ber_Oddeser.jpg/200px-Reb_Yisroel_Ber_Oddeser.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na_Nach_Nachma_Nachman_Meuman
The Na Nach Nachma phrase was "revealed" and taught by Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser, a well known Breslov figure who was born in 1888 in Tiberias. Odesser was among the first Breslover Hasidim in Israel, having learned about the movement from Rabbi Yisroel Halpern when he was a young yeshiva student.
When he was 33 years old, Odesser was overcome with weakness and hunger on the Fast of Tammuz. He decided to eat. But immediately after eating, he felt great sorrow at having succumbed to his own physical temptations. After five continuous days of prayer, a powerful thought came to him: "Go into your room!" He obeyed the inner voice, went to the bookcase, and randomly opened a book. In the book was a piece of paper that he would later call "The Letter from Heaven." The paper, written in Hebrew with one line in Yiddish, read as follows:
It was very difficult for me to come down to you
my precious student to tell you that I had pleasure
very much from your devotion and upon you I said
my fire will burn until
Messiah is coming be strong and courageous
in your devotion
Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman
And with this I will reveal to you a secret and it is:
Full and heaped up from one extreme to another extreme (PTPTYH)[3]
And with the strengthening of your devotion you will understand it and a sign
The 17th of Tammuz they will say that you don't fast
Odesser believed the letter to be a message of consolation, directly from Rebbe Nachman's spirit to himself here on earth. Since his name did not appear in the petek as the recipient, Odesser said that this was reason for every person to consider the petek addressed to himself or herself personally.[4] Odesser adopted Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman as his personal meditation and song, and became so totally identified with it that he later said, "I am Na Nach Nachma Nachman Me'Uman!" (This quote appears on Odesser's tombstone in Jerusalem.)
-
Let me add that I agree that those who believe that their Rebbe, who has died, is Moshiach is problematic and may even be heretical. All those who I am involved with at Chabad reject the idea that Rabbi Schneerson is Moshiach, and yet they (and I too) believe he had 'sparks of moshiach' and that in every generation there are Jews who are potential Moshaichs if the time is right.
-
I don't think any of the Jews on my ship were orthodox. The chaplains they send out to sea pretty much have to facilitate everyone. Like this female "rabbi" had to sit in on the Christian services because there were no lay leaders. So to do this job your religion pretty much has to be watered down, so Chabad would probably not provide rabbis. Chabad may be providing support to bigger commands though which have more Jews. It is possible that Chabad could send some kosher food out every now and then if people were interested. This phony "rabbi" claimed she kept kosher but ate the same treif meat everyone else has to eat, and said she has a "don't ask don't tell" policy when it comes to restaurants, meaning she will eat non-kosher food at restaurants as long as she doesn't know about any non-kosher ingredients. I told her that there are restaurants that are certified kosher so you don't have to worry about eating non-kosher food, and her response was "Yeah but they're not very good." Which I know that is incorrect because the kosher restaurant I went to in New York was very good.
Sounds miserable for you. I am sorry it is so bad... Luckily you are not transgressing because you have not converted yet... But if you were to convert you would be faced with a big conflict there...
-
I don't think any of the Jews on my ship were orthodox. The chaplains they send out to sea pretty much have to facilitate everyone. Like this female "rabbi" had to sit in on the Christian services because there were no lay leaders. So to do this job your religion pretty much has to be watered down, so Chabad would probably not provide rabbis. Chabad may be providing support to bigger commands though which have more Jews. It is possible that Chabad could send some kosher food out every now and then if people were interested. This phony "rabbi" claimed she kept kosher but ate the same treif meat everyone else has to eat, and said she has a "don't ask don't tell" policy when it comes to restaurants, meaning she will eat non-kosher food at restaurants as long as she doesn't know about any non-kosher ingredients. I told her that there are restaurants that are certified kosher so you don't have to worry about eating non-kosher food, and her response was "Yeah but they're not very good." Which I know that is incorrect because the kosher restaurant I went to in New York was very good.
Are you able to keep kosher when you're out?
-
:clap:
I could have used you, a former Reform Jew, on my deployment. We had a chaplain who was a female Reconstructionist phony rabbi who I came to find out wasn't even Jewish (her mom converted to a phony form of Judaism). I got together with the group she led in order to talk about Torah (only Jewish group out there), and we were studying Parashat Shlach Lecha, which talks about the spies who scouted out Israel as well as the mitzvah of tzitzit. She asked for my opinion on the parasha and I said it was interesting how the minority of spies wanted to conquer the land while the majority were afraid--just like the modern situation where a minority of Jews want to rebuild the Temple but the majority of Jews don't because they are afraid or care more about what the Gentiles will think about them than what the Torah teaches, and I said that maybe the Jews should just show some faith, don their tzitzit and rebuild the Temple. She was genuinely angry and offended that I said this. It was a simple dvar Torah and she got upset. She gave me some nonsense about how Orthodox Judaism was just one of many interpretations of Judaism and how "liberal Judaism" was just as valid and in line with tradition and how I was disparaging these Jews. She said if I didn't stop being offensive and political, I would not be allowed to attend anymore. I told her that she was being offensive when she said how much she disliked parts of the Torah that talked about the Temple and sacrifice and rendered them irrelevant, along with disparaging Orthodox Jews just because they're in the minority. Once she said that the Exodus and Oral Torah were complete fantasies. She said it's not her problem if I'm offended because I'm not Jewish and her job is to minister to the Jews. She said the Navy gave her the authority to represent Judaism, and I said the U.S. Navy is not the Sanhedrin...and then I had to leave :) I would have said more if it wasn't for the fact that she outranked me by a lot. I wanted to say that she wasn't even Jewish and a Reconstructionist smicha is like getting your smicha in a box of cracker jacks, but then I probably would have been thrown overboard.
In conclusion, these Deform types are delusional God-haters and the only way to wake them out of their slumber is to shake them up a bit. That's really the only way to have influence because they are wired not to care, and making them feel like they are doing something wrong is the only way to make them think about what they are doing. It's the only way to keep them up at night thinking about these principles.
Do you think she knows what Bnei Noah are or does she think it's made up? What about ministering to Bnei Noah? You should do that.
-
Unfortunately, there would have been no reason to bash him if he hadn't allowed his chasidim to proclaim him Moschiach and do nothing about it. That suddenly made people realize this ideology is veering away from Judaism. Like a reform only with orthodox foundation. I've never heard of the rabbi you mentioned but he's certainly not the only one in history to have a problem with the meshichists of chabad. But Jtf is friendly to chabad (non-meshichist) and has chabad members so I'm not sure the relevance of this note in regards to this discussion.
Wasn't it pretty common for people to think someone might be the Messiah in earlier times? Is it because of the results of one person in particular that we all freak when people think someone might be the Messiah?
-
Wasn't it pretty common for people to think someone might be the Messiah in earlier times? Is it because of the results of one person in particular that we all freak when people think someone might be the Messiah?
The issue is not whether one believes someone might be Moshiach. I believe you are referring to the fact that Rabbi Akiva believed that Bar Kochba was the Moshiach. But after Bar Kochba died it was clear that Bar Kochba was not the Moshiach, so Rabbi Akivah acknowledged the fact that Bar Kochba was not Moshiach...
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/tworoads/my-spouse-is-jewish-i-am-not/will-the-real-messiah-please-stand-up/
On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kochba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kochba was the moshiach. Bar Kochba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kochba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.
Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the moshiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the moshiach: Shimeon Bar Kochba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the heading False Messiahs in his book, The Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the moshiach; therefore, none of them were the moshiach. The moshiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past.
-
She did know the basic concept behind Bnei Noah, although she hadn't met one before me. She didn't seem to really value having one around, even though it is kind of rare to come across us, because she was content to trample all over belief in Torah, taking sides with atheists (because Deform kikery is a denomination of atheism, not Judaism) and referring to actual Torah belief as "the Christian way of thinking about it". I personally have never met another Noahide in the military but if I did I wouldn't be opposed to ministering to them. I have had people who have not been religious but took an interest in learning about my belief, one who said every time they hear me talk about Judaism they just "want to convert to it." So I see my current role not so much as leading a religious group, but trying to have a positive influence on people, by being a peculiar individual who makes people stop and think about life's greater questions, even if just for a second. I'm not really putting down roots as a Noahide because I intend to start converting to Judaism when I'm out of the Navy next year.
Of course you realize that there are good Jews who do belong to Reform synagogues who don't know any better. We cannot fault them for this. Although I was Bar Mitzvahed in a Conservative synagogue my parents when looking where to send my brother and I for Jewish education first chose a reform temple. Baruch Hashem that was not to be, but I still think even if I was a part of that I would still have made Teshuva when I made it (in 2003).
The point I have been trying to make is that it is important to look at individual Jews rather than the congregation they belong to. With Hashems help we can bring them back to Torah Judaism.
-
A little more about the story of Bar Kochba:
http://www.aish.com/h/o/33o/48970241.html
TELLING WHY IT HAPPENED
The Talmud, the unparalleled work of Rabbinic Judaism, had no need to retell well-known historical episodes. Its task was to illuminate and explain God's hand in history – to explain why things, especially specific tragedies, befell our people. Ironically, in this instance, the Talmud became our primary source for what were well-known events. Though the Talmud was not interested in telling us what happened, rather why it happened, uninitiated readers were deluded into thinking they knew what happened as well. Rav Shrira wished to set the record straight. Therefore he tells us what happened; the students died due to religious persecution.
The question which emerges is which religious persecution is referred to? We know that Rabbi Akiva was himself eventually murdered as part of the Hadrianic executions. We also know that Rabbi Akiva was an enthusiastic supporter of Bar Kochba.8 Therefore the association between Rabbi Akiva's "students" and the followers of Bar Kochba is likely.9
Maimonides describes Rabbi Akiva as an "arms bearer of Bar Koziba."10 The source of Maimonides's assertion is a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud:
Rav Shimon Ben Yochai taught: "Akiva my master would expound the verse a star will come from Jacob as 'Koziba will come from Jacob.' When Rabbi Akiva would see Bar Koziba he would say, 'There is the King Messiah.'"
Rav Yochanan ben Torta said: "Akiva, grass will grow from your cheeks and still the son of David will not come." (Jerusalem Talmud, Taanit chapter 4:5 page 68d)
The verse in question -- a star will come from Jacob -- is in the prophecy of Bil'am, the evil prophet who set out to curse the Jewish people but ended up blessing them instead:
I shall see him, but not now; I shall behold him, but not near; there shall come a star out of Jacob, and a scepter shall rise out of Israel, and shall strike the corners of Moab and destroy all the sons of Seth. (Numbers 24:17)
Bil'am's clairvoyance allowed him to see a star who would yet emerge and lead the Jewish People. Rabbi Akiva declared that the fulfillment of this verse was in the person of Bar Kochba a name which literally means, "Son of a Star." In fact, his name was not actually Bar Kochba: Based on recent archeological finds we know that his actual name was Bar Kosba (written with the Hebrew letter "samech"). The appellation Bar Kochba was part of the messianic identification made by Rabbi Akiva, by applying this verse from Bil'am's prophecy to Shimon bar Kosba. After the Bar Kochba rebellion was quashed, its leader was called Bar Koziba, "son of deceit" or "son of disappointment."
Rabbi Yohanan said: "Rabbi used to expound, There shall step forth a star (kochav) out of Jacob thus 'Read not star (kochav) but lie (kazav).'" (Eicha Rabba 2:4)
The aftermath of the painful defeat caused Bar Kochba to receive a new moniker, which recorded the profound failure for posterity.
-
Over Shabbat I will look into the Talmud concerning the 'baby captured by Nochrim' which has been used as a analogy for Jews who have not been brought up with proper Jewish education.
http://dafyomi.co.il/horayos/halachah/ho-hl-009.htm
http://dafyomi.co.il/azarah/halachah/az-hl-026.htm
-
As one Haredi comments here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/178653/VIDEO%3A-MK-Feiglin%2C-Minister-Aharonovich-and-the-Har-Habayis-Bluff.html
"How dare Mr. Feiglin visit the Har HaBayis and encourage other Jews to do the same! The Gedolei Yisrael of this and previous generations have declared it a Safek Issur Kareis (Rachmana Litzlan), because of uncertainty regarding the Makom HaMikdash and that (in the absence of a Parah Adumah) we are Safek Tmei’ei Meis."
This is the majority view amongst Haredim and one of the main reasons that they so loathed R.Kahane & his followers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn3dtas7qb4
-
I saw that comment before, and I did respond, but I don't see it up any longer.
-
KWRBT,
You made a comment without even checking if that was the reason this Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser supposedly 'bashed' Rabbi Schneerson. Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser is a Breslover Rabbi who has made some claims which you would find out of the norm. He claims to have received a message from Shamayim from Rabbi Nachman who by many Mitnagdim also didn't quell his followers into not believe Rabbi Nachman was Moshiach. As a quasi-follower of Breslov I know that Rebbe Nachman did not say he was Moshiach, and neither did Rabbi Schneerson... So I doubt that what you suggest is the cause of Rabbi Odesser knocking the Chabad Rebbe...
It seems to me you are blinded by your biases. I know someone personally, an elderly Jew, who attended one of the lubavitcher rebbes farbrengen's in person (actually he had gone to several before it) and the chassidim proclaimed him messiah at this farbrengen. The rebbe said nothing against them and did nothing to stop it. This Jew said after witnessing that he never attended another farbrengen. Of course, he is not the only one! Let's face reality.
-
Let me add that I agree that those who believe that their Rebbe, who has died, is Moshiach is problematic and may even be heretical. All those who I am involved with at Chabad reject the idea that Rabbi Schneerson is Moshiach, and yet they (and I too) believe he had 'sparks of moshiach' and that in every generation there are Jews who are potential Moshaichs if the time is right.
So in other words, they refuse to say flat out "he was not moshiach." Do I have that right? As I have encouraged you to do many times before, ask them a yes or no question and ask one of them to say "the rebbe was not moschiach". If they won't say that then they are not being totally honest with you when they say something about supposedly rejecting ideas about such and such.
-
Wasn't it pretty common for people to think someone might be the Messiah in earlier times? Is it because of the results of one person in particular that we all freak when people think someone might be the Messiah?
No.
No.
-
No.
No.
Really? That's what I have heard from Rabbis... Also who cares if someone thinks someone is the messiah. Is there a law against that? If they're going outside of law with their beliefs, they can answer to Hashem.
-
Really? That's what I have heard from Rabbis... Also who cares if someone thinks someone is the messiah. Is there a law against that? If they're going outside of law with their beliefs, they can answer to Hashem.
I don't know who told you but its not true. Bar kochva was declared possibly the messiah because he fit several characteristics needed to be him. In the end he didn't fulfill those obligations so it was understood by all that he was not moschiah. He lost the war. And then he died without bbuilding the temple so then it was even more obvious.
But here we have people who declare a messiah based on having nothing to do with the actual role of meessiah because they simply are declaring their rebbe (whom many of them worship) as being king of Judaism. Then he dies and they continue to say it? Why? Because there is avoda zara involved, not just a stupid and obviously incorrect belief. And an attempt to deform judaism again. And they missionize their views to others. So no its not just something for Hashem to deal with.
-
So in other words, they refuse to say flat out "he was not moshiach." Do I have that right? As I have encouraged you to do many times before, ask them a yes or no question and ask one of them to say "the rebbe was not moschiach". If they won't say that then they are not being totally honest with you when they say something about supposedly rejecting ideas about such and such.
I have told you many times that the Chabad Rabbis I work with have said that Rabbi Scherson is not Moshiach. They believe that Moshiach will come soon...
PS: Am I detecting that you are 'putting words in my mouth'?
Let me add that I agree that those who believe that their Rebbe, who has died, is Moshiach is problematic and may even be heretical. All those who I am involved with at Chabad reject the idea that Rabbi Schneerson is Moshiach, and yet they (and I too) believe he had 'sparks of moshiach' and that in every generation there are Jews who are potential Moshaichs if the time is right.
There is a concept called 'sparks of Moshiach' which I have heard many times. This is a Chassidic idea which involves the concept of transmigration of souls, and it stipulates that in every generation there are great Tzadiks who have the potential to be Moshiach. If you would like I could provide you with some information on this.
-
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/highlights-of-moshiach/06.htm
In Bilaam's prophetic vision, he states,[28] "There steps forth a star from Jacob and there arises a scepter out of Israel." Targum Onkelos notes that this "star" alludes to Moshiach. The Jerusalem Talmud,[29] however, learns that this term alludes to every Jew, inasmuch as Jews are likened to the stars. How do we reconcile these seemingly contradictory interpretations?
Actually, both meanings are correct. The star in our verse alludes to both Moshiach and to every Jew, as the Meor Aynayim[30] writes, in name of Baal Shem Tov, that within each and every Jew there is a `spark' of the soul of Moshiach. This reconciles both aforesaid interpretations. As such, every Jew today has the ability to rectify the `spark' of Moshiach within the soul, which originates from the first human being - Adam. Adam is an acrostic for: Adam (Alef), David (Daled) and Moshiach (Mem).
Since the Jerusalem Talmud makes its comment on the verse "there steps forth (a star)" and "there arises," this indicates that it is a revealed aspect: Every Jew has the power to reveal the `spark' of Moshiach within him.
In practical terms this means that everyone has the ability, through Torah and mitzvos - to hasten the actual revelation of Moshiach. For, through Torah and mitzvos one effects a refinement within himself and within the world at large, thereby decreasing - slowly but surely - the spirit of impurity,[31] until we shall see the realization of the prophecy,[32] "And the spirit of impurity I shall remove - completely - from the earth," in the advent of Moshiach.
This personal and world refinement is also expressed in the Talmud with reference to the first Biblical commandment,[33] "to procreate and have children":
"The son of David (i.e. Moshiach) will not come until all souls will be brought forth from the spiritual treasure called `guf' ("body" in the heavens above)," which at the time of birth, becomes vested into a physical, corporeal body.
It does not suffice that the neshamah, the soul, remain in its lofty soul-treasure called guf, or the way it stands beneath the Throne of Glory (from where all souls come forth), but the soul must descend to earth (through birth), and then must use the soul-powers to refine and elevate the materialistic world in and around the person. Through this endeavor we will bring Moshiach, a descendant of David.
Notes:
28 Bamidbar 24:17
29 Maaser Sheni 4:6
30 Parshas Pinchas/end
31 As in Shmos 23:30
32 Zecharyah 13:2
33 Bereishis 1:28; Talmud, Yevamos 62a
-
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/sichos-in-english/50/32.htm
Mashiach in Every Generation
The relevance of the above is made possible by the unique nature of our present times. To borrow an expression of the Previous Rebbe,[279] we have already "polished the buttons" and have completed all the elements of service required of us.
Furthermore, Mashiach is not merely a hope for the future, but there exists in every generation -- and surely, in our generation -- "a person from among the descendants of Judah who is worthy of being the Mashiach of Israel."[280] As the Chasam Sofer writes,[281] "From the time of the destruction of the Beis HaMikdash, there was born one who in his righteousness is worthy of being [Israel's] redeemer,"[282] and were there no impediments and obstacles which prevented his coming, he would have come already.
Moreover, these obstacles no longer exist, for when the service of the Jewish people over the centuries is considered as a whole, everything that is necessary to bring about the Redemption has been accomplished.[283] There is no valid explanation for the continuation of the exile. Accordingly, at this time, our spiritual service must focus on "standing prepared to greet Mashiach," anxiously awaiting his revelation with the willingness to accept him eagerly.
See also http://www.bethisraelct.org/page.asp?pageID=%7BA76869E5-ECF8-4E03-982C-01A93DF89068%7D&displayAll=1
-
I have told you many times that the Chabad Rabbis I work with have said that Rabbi Scherson is not Moshiach. They believe that Moshiach will come soon...
PS: Am I detecting that you are 'putting words in my mouth'?
But did you ask them "Yes or no, Was the Rebbe the messiah?"
And if so, how did they answer in exact words?
And if not, please do ask that.
There is a concept called 'sparks of Moshiach' which I have heard many times. This is a Chassidic idea which involves the concept of transmigration of souls, and it stipulates that in every generation there are great Tzadiks who have the potential to be Moshiach. If you would like I could provide you with some information on this.
Very subjective, and I could then say that about any tzadik. So what sets apart the Rebbe because some of his followers say it about him? It loses it's meaning if I can just declare any tzadik was a potential moshiach who failed. So what? After they already failed it has no practical relevance. And it's certainly pointless to refer to someone as such after they already failed and already died. Unless of course someone is promoting a certain agenda about a certain person - then it's very useful.
But you and I both know that the concept you are saying here, is NOT what his chassidim spoke of. Many in chabad do believe their rebbe was mochiach and they are not concerned with sparks of anything. Some of them even believe he is still alive! It is those people I am attacking, plain and simple. So your attempt to whitewash it by sanitizing it into some other belief which is not the belief I'm criticizing, fails.
-
I asked a Chabad rabbi and he said "I don't know. I hope so.". Sometimes they say there are many opinions and don't give an answer.
-
I stated previously and will state again that my experience with Chabad here in California is that they will explicitly state that the Rebbe is NOT Moshiach. This should be obvious to anyone who studies Torah with Chabad, as we learn the Rambams laws of kings (regarding what is considered the task and nature of Moshiach). Looking at the tasks which need to be accomplished and comparing them to what has been achieved we can see that there is still much to do...
Major Issues relating to Moshiach and what he needs to do...
1) Be a descendant of King David
2) Be a Torah scholar.
3) Bring the Jews back to learning Torah
4) Bring the Jews from the four corners of the world to Israel.
5) Rebuild the Holy Temple
Or as Rambam puts it:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188356/jewish/Chapter-11.htm
Halacha 4
If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach.
If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach.
He will then improve the entire world, motivating all the nations to serve God together, as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.'
If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah. Rather, he should be considered as all the other proper and complete kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. God caused him to arise only to test the many, as Daniel 11:35 states: 'And some of the wise men will stumble, to try them, to refine, and to clarify until the appointed time, because the set time is in the future.'
Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Mashiach and was executed by the court was also alluded to in Daniel's prophecies, as ibid. 11:14 states: 'The vulgar among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.'
Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? All the prophets spoke of Mashiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their observance of the mitzvot. In contrast, Christianity caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humbled, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the Lord.
Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts, our thoughts. Ultimately, all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him will only serve to prepare the way for Mashiach's coming and the improvement of the entire world, motivating the nations to serve God together as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.'
How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with the mention of Mashiach, Torah, and mitzvot. These matters have been spread to the furthermost islands to many stubborn-hearted nations. They discuss these matters and the mitzvot of the Torah, saying: 'These mitzvot were true, but were already negated in the present age and are not applicable for all time.'
Others say: 'Implied in the mitzvot are hidden concepts that can not be understood simply. The Mashiach has already come and revealed those hidden truths.'
When the true Messianic king will arise and prove successful, his position becoming exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage and their prophets and ancestors caused them to err.
It is clear that Rebbe Schnerson could not be the Moshiach. While I am an admirer of the Rebbe, believe he was a pious and righteous Yid, and he did a great deal to help the Jewish people in the aftermath of the Shoah, he did not accomplish a great number of the things which are required of a man to be considered Moshiach.
Anyone who ascribes to the Rebbe the title of Moshiach is making a very serious error, and deserves rebuke. Rambam is not the only one who says that the Moshiach must accomplish these goals in order to gain the appellation of Moshiach.
Thus the argument is over before it has even begun...
And in response to KWRBT who failed to read my repeated posts on the topic. I HAVE ASKED POINT blank whether they believe Rebbe was Moshiach and all four of the Chabad Rebbes who I trust have assured me that only a small fringe element of Chabad believe that stuff. I have asked numerous times and I will not ask any more because I study Torah with these Rabbis and I know that they don't believe that the Rebbe was moshiach...
PS: I also feel a sense of Love (Ahavat Yisrael) towards the Rebbe. This comes from my sense of Hakaras HaTov (Acknowledging the Good) and appreciation for the organization which he started which continues to this day doing great Mitzvot and kindness.
-
I asked a Chabad rabbi and he said "I don't know. I hope so.". Sometimes they say there are many opinions and don't give an answer.
Very problematic.
-
"This should be obvious to anyone who studies Torah with Chabad "
It is obviously not. What are you talking about? Perhaps those you know dont, fine and very good and great. You obviously never been to 770 or seen what goes on there. In fact you dont have to come to Brooklyn NY for this you can see on the video what they do and the banner they have. ( I gave you link earlier you can search for it).
-
"This should be obvious to anyone who studies Torah with Chabad "
It is obviously not. What are you talking about? Perhaps those you know dont, fine and very good and great. You obviously never been to 770 or seen what goes on there. In fact you dont have to come to Brooklyn NY for this you can see on the video what they do and the banner they have. ( I gave you link earlier you can search for it).
How do you reconcile what is taught by Chabad and this belief. It is irreconcilable...
Rebbe did not accomplish these goals... What do these heretics say?
Where is the Temple? Has the battle Moshiach wages been fought? There are many ways to prove that Rebbe was not moshiach and not a single way to prove he was...
Some Chabad presentations on the Jewish belief in Moshiach (and not that Rebbe was Moshiach)
http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/1588668/jewish/The-Coming-of-Moshiach.htm
http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/1588669/jewish/Moshiach-and-the-End-of-Days.htm
http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/560686/jewish/Bring-Moshiach-Now.htm
-
I also wanted to add that there was a time in my youth when I actually believed I could have been Moshiach. This stems from the belief that the sparks of Moshiach are in each of us... Which I mentioned previously concerning the belief of the Rabbis whom I study with...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYkSt3WIWrA
-
I asked a Chabad rabbi and he said "I don't know. I hope so.". Sometimes they say there are many opinions and don't give an answer.
Sure, everyone hopes their leader is Moshiach! And we don't know truly how G-d has things planned out. I think the messiah has been here multiple times, and he will tell us who he was when he finally comes...
-
Sure, everyone hopes their leader is Moshiach! And we don't know truly how G-d has things planned out. I think the messiah has been here multiple times, and he will tell us who he was when he finally comes...
Where? On this forum?
Muman I agree. it is not possible, they need to get over it, but it is some of their belief (some of them, dont know how many).
-
It is clear according to all sages that in order to be considered the Moshiach he must accomplish all the goals in one lifetime... Once he has passed to the next world, he is not longer in the running to be considered Moshiach. This is mostly learned from the story of Bar Kochba who accomplished a great number of the tasks of the Moshiach, yet he died before completing them... Thus Bar Kochba was not Moshiach, thus every other contender who did not accomplish the goals as laid out in the Laws of Kings is not Moshiach...
I subscribe to the laws of Rambam mostly concerning these issues. Rambam is taught by Chabad...
But the concept of 'sparks of Moshiach' and the concept that a potential Moshiach is born in every generation makes sense to me..
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/sichos-in-english/50/32.htm#n280
Mashiach in Every Generation
The relevance of the above is made possible by the unique nature of our present times. To borrow an expression of the Previous Rebbe,[279] we have already "polished the buttons" and have completed all the elements of service required of us.
Furthermore, Mashiach is not merely a hope for the future, but there exists in every generation -- and surely, in our generation -- "a person from among the descendants of Judah who is worthy of being the Mashiach of Israel."[280] As the Chasam Sofer writes,[281] "From the time of the destruction of the Beis HaMikdash, there was born one who in his righteousness is worthy of being [Israel's] redeemer,"[282] and were there no impediments and obstacles which prevented his coming, he would have come already.
Moreover, these obstacles no longer exist, for when the service of the Jewish people over the centuries is considered as a whole, everything that is necessary to bring about the Redemption has been accomplished.[283] There is no valid explanation for the continuation of the exile. Accordingly, at this time, our spiritual service must focus on "standing prepared to greet Mashiach," anxiously awaiting his revelation with the willingness to accept him eagerly.
279 See Sichos Simchas Torah, 5689.
280 The commentary of Rav Ovadiah of Bartenura to the Book of Ruth.
281 Responsa on Choshen Mishpat, Vol. 6, Responsum 98. (Significantly, this is not a text of allegory or homily, but rather a text of Torah law.) See also Sdei Chemed, Pe'as HaSadeh, Maareches Alef, principle 70.
282 This statement is based on a set of the fundamental principles of the Jewish faith. A Jew must await Mashiach's coming every day (Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Melachim 11:1), and, as explained in Likkutei Sichos, Vol. XII, p. 394, this means that every day, we must expect Mashiach's coming on that very day.
The Rambam (loc. cit. 11:4), however, defines certain criteria with which we will be able to recognize Mashiach. He will be a Torah sage of the House of David, vigilant in the observance of the mitzvos, who will motivate the entire Jewish people to strengthen their Torah practice. At a given time, he will "fight the wars of G-d and be victorious" and then rebuild the Beis HaMikdash.
Since performing these tasks requires time, we must assume that in every generation there is a potential Mashiach, who is in the midst of the preliminary stages of the above service. Should the setting be appropriate, as the above-quoted responsum of the Chasam Sofer states, "the spirit of Mashiach will rest upon him," and he will redeem our people. (Translator's Note.)
283 Although there may be particular elements of service which are lacking, and in many individual matters there is a need for improvement, this does not affect the nature of the situation as a whole. When the greater context is considered, it is clear that our people have completed the mission with which we were charged. These particular failings, although in need of correction, are not a valid reason for the Redemption to be delayed any longer. See Sichos Parshas Noach, 5752.
-
Where? On this forum?
Muman I agree. it is not possible, they need to get over it, but it is some of their belief (some of them, dont know how many).
What? On the forum? No, on earth!
I think you and others slow the coming of Moshiach, by being so negative. You guys wouldn't know if Moshiach was standing right next to you! Your right, everyone else is wrong...
I sometimes wonder if you truly want the Moshiach to come.
-
So you're Bahai now?
What's that? I think I have heard of it...
-
I asked a Chabad rabbi and he said "I don't know. I hope so.". Sometimes they say there are many opinions and don't give an answer.
:o
"I hope so?" Wow. What does that even mean?
-
Sure, everyone hopes their leader is Moshiach!
HE IS ALREADY DEAD. That's like lehavdil hoping for a dead guy to be major league baseball's most valuable player. Only live baseball players can be the MVP. Babe ruth can't win this year's MVP so stop "hoping" for that.
I also don't understand if a messiah is coming, and no matter who he is he will do x y z, why does someone hope that his personal rebbe is that messiah? It makes no difference. It could be an albino from Seskatchewan, as long as he does what the messiah is supposed to do what bearing does it have whether it was a lubavitcher rebbe, a munkatch rebbe, or any other kind of rebbe?
This is like saying, I hope my great great grandfather was the moshiach (even though he's already dead and clearly wasn't the moshiach, but maybe in some parallel universe he really was). First, why does it have to be your great grandfather? Ego? Some kind of pride thing? Secondly, how can someone who already lived a life that proved he was not messiah then died, ACTUALLY BE the messiah? Just lunacy. This is the talk of crazy people. And you think it's fine based on whatever belief system you subscribe to, so you are in effect perpetuating craziness among Jews. I urge you not to do that. And that is why I contradict your inaccurate statements.
Sure, everyone hopes their leader is Moshiach!
No, they don't. I don't know where you got this idea from. This sounds like you are describing a personality cult. Or maybe a real cult with kool aid and everything.
And we don't know truly how G-d has things planned out.
Who claimed to know how God planned things out?
I think the messiah has been here multiple times, and he will tell us who he was when he finally comes...
You are free to make up any belief you want, but Jews are supposed to follow Judaism, not made up beliefs. Judaism has parameters.
-
What? On the forum? No, on earth!
I think you and others slow the coming of Moshiach, by being so negative.
Making stuff up again.
You guys wouldn't know if Moshiach was standing right next to you!
Yes we would because we have an easy litmus test. Did you built the Bet Hamikdash? Did you fight wars against the enemies of the Jewish people? Very easy to tell who could be anointed king with clear parameters set out by Judaism as to what such a figure does. It's funny to me that you want to hijack the concept of messiah from Judaism but then redefine it according to your own made up ideas. Why not call it something else then and stop holding us accountable to beliefs to which we don't subscribe?
Your right, everyone else is wrong...
You're, not your.
I sometimes wonder if you truly want the Moshiach to come.
Why would you wonder about that? I'm quite sure that Tag davens for that every day. But maybe what you are calling "moshiach" is something else that you invented and not the concept from Judaism? In that case, we definitely don't want your so-called messiah (whatever that might be).
-
What? On the forum? No, on earth!
I think you and others slow the coming of Moshiach, by being so negative. You guys wouldn't know if Moshiach was standing right next to you! Your right, everyone else is wrong...
I sometimes wonder if you truly want the Moshiach to come.
I was just messing with you. Making fun of the idea of "reincarnation" at the same time.
-
I was just messing with you. Making fun of the idea of "reincarnation" at the same time.
Sorry, I think I might of been a little high from auto body paint.
-
HE IS ALREADY DEAD. That's like lehavdil hoping for a dead guy to be major league baseball's most valuable player. Only live baseball players can be the MVP. Babe ruth can't win this year's MVP so stop "hoping" for that.
I also don't understand if a messiah is coming, and no matter who he is he will do x y z, why does someone hope that his personal rebbe is that messiah? It makes no difference. It could be an albino from Seskatchewan, as long as he does what the messiah is supposed to do what bearing does it have whether it was a lubavitcher rebbe, a munkatch rebbe, or any other kind of rebbe?
This is like saying, I hope my great great grandfather was the moshiach (even though he's already dead and clearly wasn't the moshiach, but maybe in some parallel universe he really was). First, why does it have to be your great grandfather? Ego? Some kind of pride thing? Secondly, how can someone who already lived a life that proved he was not messiah then died, ACTUALLY BE the messiah? Just lunacy. This is the talk of crazy people. And you think it's fine based on whatever belief system you subscribe to, so you are in effect perpetuating craziness among Jews. I urge you not to do that. And that is why I contradict your inaccurate statements.
No, they don't. I don't know where you got this idea from. This sounds like you are describing a personality cult. Or maybe a real cult with kool aid and everything.
Who claimed to know how God planned things out?
You are free to make up any belief you want, but Jews are supposed to follow Judaism, not made up beliefs. Judaism has parameters.
So, because I believe in reincarnation and the Moshiach is here all the time waiting for us, I'm crazy and leading Jews astray?
Behold, all these things does God do -- twice, even three times with a man -- to bring his soul back from the pit that he may be enlightened with the light of the living. (Job 33:29)
-
You're, not your.
If you would like you can go through my posts and get a lot more spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors...
-
So, because I believe in reincarnation and the Moshiach is here all the time waiting for us, I'm crazy and leading Jews astray?
Behold, all these things does God do -- twice, even three times with a man -- to bring his soul back from the pit that he may be enlightened with the light of the living. (Job 33:29)
Actually he was referring to the Bahai belief in the Mehdi. I'm not sure about the Bahai, but I know its a type of Shia or 12thers belief where the "Mehdi" is supposedly always here but hidden and about to be revealed and then make the whole world be under Shia Islam.
2nd part I believe Dan Ben Noah addressed that earlier some time ago. Search the forum for it, the explanation is given and it is taken out of its context. Just search it.
-
I will once again point out that the concept of Gilgul is accepted as a possible explanation for a lot of things according to Chassidus and Kabbalah. I believe there are many hints to this in the Tanach, and Ephraim has brought a single example of these concepts.
I have discussed this topic a lot and it is getting a bit old having to go through it each time this comes up.
While gilgulim and the entire transmigration of souls concept is not 'dogma' and certainly not required belief for everyone it is a respected belief by a great deal of Orthodox Jews today.
Here Rabbi Frand discusses some of the hints in the Talmud about Gilgul...
http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5772/bamidbar.html
-
Or just look at the few verses preceding it in the book of Job and the context makes it clear that it's talking about God punishing someone in life twice, three times so they repent and their soul doesn't go to the pit. It's saying nothing about reincarnation. Saadia Gaon said reincarnation was a falsehood. But of course sound logic like this will never persuade the mystic mafia, which finds support for their false doctrines in the Bible just like the Christians find support for Jesus and the Muslims find support for Muhammad. Bahais believe that their prophet was a reincarnation of Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, and I think a few other people. So this belief is closer to Bahai than Judaism, which is why I asked the question I did.
Well the fact of the matter is that a great number of Jews believe this regardless of what Sadia Gaon (who is well respected also) said. I think it is foolish to write off this belief because learning these concepts brings a great spiritual depth to Judaism which doesn't exist for those who ignore it.
I will continue learning and teaching Kabbalah concepts for as long as I can. You can disregard it but I know that there are a great number of Jews who really want to learn about these beliefs. I strongly disagree with your placing your trust in Sadia Gaon and the mitnagdim.
I would think you would not accept the concept of Resurrection of the Dead because as we discussed before there is absolutely no mention of this concept in the Torah. And the basis of this idea comes from the interpretation of a Prophet (which others interpret differently also). Rambam even believes in Resurrection even though there is no rational reason to believe it..
I also object to your portraying Chassidic Jews as if we are Christians ... That is freaking obnoxious, rude, and makes you on my Crap list Dan.. I doubt you will EVER be a Jew because you do not have what it takes..
-
So, because I believe in reincarnation and the Moshiach is here all the time waiting for us, I'm crazy and leading Jews astray?
No because that's a straw man argument and clearly not what I said.
Behold, all these things does God do -- twice, even three times with a man -- to bring his soul back from the pit that he may be enlightened with the light of the living. (Job 33:29)
Relevance?
-
If you would like you can go through my posts and get a lot more spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors...
Just wanted to fix that one in particular because I was reinforcing your point that we are right and you are wrong, which you yourself said.
-
And Dan thinks that because he is a moderator on the Jewish forum he is an expert on Jewish thought... Haha!
-
I will once again point out that the concept of Gilgul is accepted as a possible explanation for a lot of things according to Chassidus and Kabbalah. I believe there are many hints to this in the Tanach, and Ephraim has brought a single example of these concepts.
I have discussed this topic a lot and it is getting a bit old having to go through it each time this comes up.
While gilgulim and the entire transmigration of souls concept is not 'dogma' and certainly not required belief for everyone it is a respected belief by a great deal of Orthodox Jews today.
Here Rabbi Frand discusses some of the hints in the Talmud about Gilgul...
http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5772/bamidbar.html
Gilgul has been discussed at length here before. But stop derailing this discussion just because Ephraim raised the concept of gilgul and claimed that I was attacking him solely on that basis. GILGUL was definitely NOT the reason I contradicted his claims. I am dispelling his confusion regarding Judaism and the Jewish concept known as messiah. Whether one accepts gilgulim or not, he is making up concepts - irrespective of gilgulim - that are not found in Judaism.
So don't start derailing this with article after article of copy-paste about the concept of gilgulim please.
-
And Dan thinks that because he is a moderator on the Jewish forum he is an expert on Jewish thought... Haha!
But Ephraim who is also not a Jew but unlike Dan has not learned Judaism, somehow is an authority over Dan? Haha...ha!
-
Gilgul has been discussed at length here before. But stop derailing this discussion just because Ephraim raised the concept of gilgul and claimed that I was attacking him solely on that basis. GILGUL was definitely NOT the reason I contradicted his claims. I am dispelling his confusion regarding Judaism and the Jewish concept known as messiah. Whether one accepts gilgulim or not, he is making up concepts - irrespective of gilgulim - that are not found in Judaism.
So don't start derailing this with article after article of copy-paste about the concept of gilgulim please.
KWRBT,
I am not upset at what you and Ephraim are saying. I have agreed with you that believing in dead person being Moshiach is not the Jewish way. Moshiach must accomplish his goal in his lifetime.
On the topic of Gilgul though I am of the belief that it is an acceptable belief, although not Dogma. So a person can believe it, or not believe it, so long as they keep the mitzvot and study Torah... But people who want to cleave to Hashem (as commanded in this weeks portion) can believe in these ideas if they answer basic spiritual questions. It is not against the Torah to believe in Gilgul, and there are many many hints to this (if you are open to the idea).
I don't like it when the concept is called 'false' or 'against Judaism' because I believe that is not true. I am not blaming you KWRBT nor Tag as both of you (while I accept you don't believe these ideas) have been accepting of my belief in them. I don't want to have never-ending debates on these topics and hope we all can just co-exist in this area of 'theology'.
-
But Ephraim who is also not a Jew but unlike Dan has not learned Judaism, somehow is an authority over Dan? Haha...ha!
No, I am not supporting Ephraim on that topic. I stated my opinion twice, that a dead moshiach is a non-starter...
-
KWRBT,
I am not upset at what you and Ephraim are saying. I have agreed with you that believing in dead person being Moshiach is not the Jewish way. Moshiach must accomplish his goal in his lifetime.
On the topic of Gilgul though I am of the belief that it is an acceptable belief, although not Dogma. So a person can believe it, or not believe it, so long as they keep the mitzvot and study Torah... But people who want to cleave to Hashem (as commanded in this weeks portion) can believe in these ideas if they answer basic spiritual questions. It is not against the Torah to believe in Gilgul, and there are many many hints to this (if you are open to the idea).
I don't like it when the concept is called 'false' or 'against Judaism' because I believe that is not true. I am not blaming you KWRBT nor Tag as both of you (while I accept you don't believe these ideas) have been accepting of my belief in them. I don't want to have never-ending debates on these topics and hope we all can just co-exist in this area of 'theology'.
Ok. I'm with you on this. I also feel that a Jew can believe in gilgulim even if I am personally a gilgul skeptic.
-
Dan,
I don't think you meant to insult me and my congregation... Maybe you didn't think about how I would react (although I suspect some other readers may also object but not say so)...
-
No because that's a straw man argument and clearly not what I said.
Relevance?
That is indeed what you implied!
It's funny that Josephus recorded that the Essenes and Pharisees believed in reincarnation. What are you a Sadducees?
Gotta go more paint to huff!
-
So if it's ok to express that a certain non-essential doctrine is true, why is it not ok to express that the same non-essential doctrine is false?
Because as I stated there are a great number of Jews who believe in these doctrines as a way of establishing a closer relationship to Hashem. I don't expect you to understand coming from your background, but the Jews of Ukraine and Russia were kept Jewish though some of these beliefs. I do believe these beliefs helped keep the Jewish people alive during a great darkness (the pogroms in Ukraine for example).
This is why I think Judaism without these ideas is fine but I find Chassidus very fulfilling and helpful for keeping the mitzvot.
-
That is indeed what you implied!
Not at all. It must be that you misunderstood or misinterpreted my comments. I suggest you reread them.
It's funny that Josephus recorded that the Essenes and Pharisees believed in reincarnation. What are you a Sadducees?
Funny in what way?
Where did Josephus write this? Provide a reference please.
I won't bring up the fact that Josephus was a traitor and also probably not reliable on certain matters of history, but I just first want to see where you're getting this from.
No I am not a Sadduccee chas veshalom.
Saadiah Gaon was not a saducee and he refuted the concept of gilgulim as being non-Jewish in origin. Not only that but he was among the prime opponents of a contemporary group called Karaites, who founded themselves on the concept of Sadducees (even though they didn't have an actual line of tradition from the saduccees of chazal's time).
-
I think they were kept Jewish by keeping halacha. I fail to see how a non-Jewish belief would keep someone Jewish. If believing in reincarnation is what keeps you Jewish, why aren't Hindus and Buddhists converting to Judaism in droves?
I concur with Dan here. I don't believe the specific belief in gilgulim, while it does answer an important philosophical question people might ponder, had anything to do with whether Jews of Ukraine and Russia (or anywhere for that matter) remained Jewish. I don't know of a single historian of Jewish history who has claimed such a thing that it was that belief in particular that saved Jewry.
In any case, so many Jews went off the path in Europe during the Haskala, that it would be hard to make an argument that ANYTHING kept Jews Jewish since so many left and such a small number remained committed. It's much easier to hypothesize about what things possibly caused (or were the primary cause) for Jews to abandon Judaism in those times.
-
I'm no expert on history but I'm going to bet that Josephus didn't write this about reincarnation. He probably DID write that the Pharisees and Essenes believed in resurrection of the dead, and that the Sadducees did not, because this is true.
???
Yes, that would make sense!
Ephraim, do you realize that you are conflating two totally different things? Once again, I think this simply stems from your unfamiliarity with what Judaism actually teaches. While I don't expect you to be an expert on Judaism, the point I have been trying to make is that it is unreasonable for you to expect us to believe in (or to be beholden to!) concepts which are not taught by Judaism.
-
I do not agree that these are 'non-Jewish' ideas... I reject that completely. There is no way that non-Jewish ideas would enter into Jewish belief, especially by those Rabbis during the period when Chassidus began.
Kabbalah was known by Rabbis long before Chassidus appeared on the map of Jewish history. These ideas were discussed by various Rabbis through the ages. While I respect the Sadia Gaon on many topics I respectfully disagree with what he says concerning this topic. And as is the case with much of Jewish thought, there are differences in opinions.
-
There is no way that non-Jewish ideas would enter into Jewish belief,
Why is there no way that could happen? It certainly is *possible, even if you think it didn't actually happen.
especially by those Rabbis during the period when Chassidus began.
Why is it "especially" not possible regarding the rabbis in that place and time when Chassidus began? I'm not getting that. Is it so different than any other time in history or any other place Jews were?
-
Why is there no way that could happen? It certainly is *possible, even if you think it didn't actually happen.
Why is it "especially" not possible regarding the rabbis in that place and time when Chassidus began? I'm not getting that. Is it so different than any other time in history or any other place Jews were?
I am stating my opinion, not fact at this point.
1) Chassidus places great emphasis on avoiding the appearance of imitating the non-Jewish world.
2) During the rise of Chassidus the Jewish people in Ukraine were being abused by the gentiles through pogroms and other abuses. What the Rabbis of Chassidus did was start to reveal some of the Kabbalistic ideas to the average Jew in order to infuse them with a more spiritual experience. Prior to Chassidus the only way a Jew could feel Jewish was by exerting great effort in Torah study. Chassidus brought about the idea that Mitzvot and Good deeds along with learning are important. I can find some articles on why Chassidus is considered important for those interested.
-
I think Christians would of influenced Jews more in Europe and Russia... Who did not believe in reincarnation... Maybe your side was influenced by something...
Why where these teachings kept secret and hidden, because you will be killed for heresy and worshiping satan!
-
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954961.html
The Hassidic movement ― the movement of the "pious ones" or Chassidut, in Hebrew ― was founded in the 18th century in Eastern Europe by Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer, who became known as the Ba'al Shem Tov, which means "Master of the Good Name."
He was born in 1698 in Okup, in Podolia province (of what is now Ukraine) near the Dniester River. The Ba'al Shem Tov (who was also known as the Besht) was a poor orphan child who worked in the Carpathian Mountains as a laborer. During this time he studied with a secret society of Jewish mystics, the Nestarim, and he eventually became a revered rabbi.
He traveled from community to community, developing a reputation wherever he went as a spiritual holy man and mystical healer, attracting a huge following.
His teachings revolutionized the demoralized, persecuted Jews of Eastern Europe.
After the pogroms and massacres, (see Part 49), large parts of Eastern European Jewry had slipped into dire poverty. In addition to the tremendous physical destruction wrought by the Chmielnicki massacres, the tremendous disappointment caused by the false Messiah Shabbetai Tzvi (see Part 51) left much of the Jewish population of Eastern Europe in a collective state of deep depression. One of the victims of this situation was Jewish scholarship, with only an elite few studying in yeshivas while the rest eked out a meager living. As a result of the decrease in scholarship, Jewish religious life suffered ― with the average Jew not connecting either intellectually or spiritually with God. And this is what the Ba'al Shem Tov sought to change.
His teachings (he left no writings) brought about a whole movement which emphasized the idea of bringing God into all aspects of one's life, particularly through intense prayer and joyous singing. He taught that even the deeds of the simplest Jew, if performed correctly and sincerely, were equal to those of the greatest scholars.
Hassidic thought stressed the importance of devekut or "clinging to God." This involves feeling the presence of God in all aspects of one's existence and not just through Torah study and observance of the commandments.
The following parable describes the way the early Hassidic masters diagnosed the situation:
An apprentice blacksmith, after he had learned his trade from the master, made a list for himself of how he must go about his craft. How he should pump the bellows, secure the anvil, and wield the hammer. He omitted nothing. When he went to work at the king's palace, however, he discovered to his dismay that he could not perform his duties, and was dismissed. He had forgotten to note one thing-perhaps because it was so obvious-that first he must ignite a spark to kindle the fire. He had to return to the master, who reminded him of the first principle which he had forgotten.(1)
Trying to infuse one's life with spirituality in all aspects caught on very rapidly among the simple Jews in particular. Very rapidly, especially in Eastern Europe, thousands upon thousands of Jews were drawn to the Hassidic movement.
-
Ephraim I third that. I would like to see your claim that Josephus said that we the Perushim believe in reincarnation.
-
I think Christians would of influenced Jews more in Europe and Russia... Who did not believe in reincarnation... Maybe your side was influenced by something...
Why where these teachings kept secret and hidden, because you will be killed for heresy and worshiping satan!
Uhh, what?
I have no idea what you are saying now. You'll have to be more clear if you have a specific point to make.
-
I am stating my opinion, not fact at this point.
1) Chassidus places great emphasis on avoiding the appearance of imitating the non-Jewish world.
2) During the rise of Chassidus the Jewish people in Ukraine were being abused by the gentiles through pogroms and other abuses. What the Rabbis of Chassidus did was start to reveal some of the Kabbalistic ideas to the average Jew in order to infuse them with a more spiritual experience. Prior to Chassidus the only way a Jew could feel Jewish was by exerting great effort in Torah study. Chassidus brought about the idea that Mitzvot and Good deeds along with learning are important. I can find some articles on why Chassidus is considered important for those interested.
I understand why chassidus developed, what it stressed and what its appeal was to many Jews, I'm just saying that we have seen rabbis and Jews influenced by ideas of the gentiles all throughout history, so it's not something out of the realm of possibility. Whether or not it happened in particular case x or case y is of course always up for debate. I just don't see why we should pretend that we've never been influenced by gentiles or vice versa. We've been in a historical dialogue and at most times cooperation with gentiles throughout time just by virtue of living next to them, near them, among them, etc.
-
And Dan thinks that because he is a moderator on the Jewish forum he is an expert on Jewish thought... Haha!
Dan would not only make a great Jew, but I think if he wanted to he would make a great rabbi. For a Noachide his knowledge of the Tanakh and Talmud is incredible.
-
Dan would not only make a great Jew, but I think if he wanted to he would make a great rabbi. For a Noachide his knowledge of the Tanakh and Talmud is incredible.
Not that I want to challenge but I have been studying Talmud and Torah for ten years. I have been studying with Rabbis and with a study partner...
I think Dan does good but says things which he doesn't realize are off-putting to real Jews. This is why I said what I did.
-
Not that I want to challenge but I have been studying Talmud and Torah for ten years. I have been studying with Rabbis and with a study partner...
I think Dan does good but says things which he doesn't realize are off-putting to real Jews. This is why I said what I did.
Understood brother.
-
Understood brother.
I am trying to avoid replying when I feel emotionally upset because I have a habit of saying things in a blunt manner. If I have done so in recent replies please forgive me.
-
Dan would not only make a great Jew, but I think if he wanted to he would make a great rabbi. For a Noachide his knowledge of the Tanakh and Talmud is incredible.
I agree!
-
Uhh, what?
I have no idea what you are saying now. You'll have to be more clear if you have a specific point to make.
My point was... Kabbalah would have been a heresy to the gentile Christians, so it was kept secret by the Jews until later. Maybe you guys abandoned it out of fear of being accused of Satanism, and it stuck. Now here you are, fighting about a belief Jews had originally.
What sort of influence would Jews have received in Eastern Europe?
The Torah seems pretty mystical to me. Also why were some books left out of the Tanach?
Did that make sense?
-
Not that I want to challenge but I have been studying Talmud and Torah for ten years. I have been studying with Rabbis and with a study partner...
I think Dan does good but says things which he doesn't realize are off-putting to real Jews. This is why I said what I did.
Soo me and KWRBT and others here and elsewhere are not "REAL JEWS" ? Not just as Jews but people who study Torah also for many years as well? Watch your statements please for your own sake.
"My point was... Kabbalah would have been a heresy to the gentile Christians, so it was kept secret by the Jews until later."
When you mean "Kabbalah" you mean the Zohar right? Because their is Kabbalah and what is called as such.
1) their were Sefardim who also "didn't have it". Not under Christian rule.
2) Christians burned the Talmudh and other Jewish books regardless. And Jews kept the Torah, and Jewish books regardless of them.
-
Soo me and KWRBT and others here and elsewhere are not "REAL JEWS" ? Not just as Jews but people who study Torah also for many years as well? Watch your statements please for your own sake.
"My point was... Kabbalah would have been a heresy to the gentile Christians, so it was kept secret by the Jews until later."
When you mean "Kabbalah" you mean the Zohar right? Because their is Kabbalah and what is called as such.
1) their were Sefardim who also "didn't have it". Not under Christian rule.
2) Christians burned the Talmudh and other Jewish books regardless. And Jews kept the Torah, and Jewish books regardless of them.
No, you are misreading what I am saying. If you want to read it that way, you can. But what I was saying is that there are many real Jews who study Chassidus and Kabbalah and saying it is a false belief is insulting to us. As I said , you are entitled to believe what you want as these concepts are not essential to keeping the mitzvot (which is the most important thing to all Jewish faith). So long as these beliefs do not get in the way of keeping the mitzvot as expressed in the Halacha there is not a problem.
So it should be clear that I am saying nothing about what you believe and speaking more about what the Jews who I study and pray with believe.
-
Soo me and KWRBT and others here and elsewhere are not "REAL JEWS" ? Not just as Jews but people who study Torah also for many years as well? Watch your statements please for your own sake.
"My point was... Kabbalah would have been a heresy to the gentile Christians, so it was kept secret by the Jews until later."
When you mean "Kabbalah" you mean the Zohar right? Because their is Kabbalah and what is called as such.
1) their were Sefardim who also "didn't have it". Not under Christian rule.
2) Christians burned the Talmudh and other Jewish books regardless. And Jews kept the Torah, and Jewish books regardless of them.
There has been Kabbalah passed down from the time of the building of the first Temple. If you don't like it, or believe me, oh well. Sue me!
-
There has been Kabbalah passed down from the time of the building of the first Temple. If you don't like it, or believe me, oh well. Sue me!
Show how it was passed down? Even the Kabbalists claim that the Zohar was hidden and not through a direct chain of teacher to student.
-
Show how it was passed down? Even the Kabbalists claim that the Zohar was hidden and not through a direct chain of teacher to student.
R xzmt! Yfg dv droo ivyfrow gsv Gvnkov!
-
R xzmt! Yfg dv droo ivyfrow gsv Gvnkov!
Haa? Do we have a problem?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g3O-G7EGbk
-
It seems like people aspiring to be Trayvons!
Did they say "Nigisaki" (Nagasaki mixed with the N word.)?
If the one being attacked was white, they would call him racist.
-
Show how it was passed down? Even the Kabbalists claim that the Zohar was hidden and not through a direct chain of teacher to student.
Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai revealed it. I don't know if he wrote it down but he might have transmitted it orally until the Written Zohar was written down. That's why it has some Spanish in it. Leftists claim the Spanish makes it not real. But the Talmud has Aramaic. If it's transmitted orally, it will obviously be written in the vernacular of the person writing it down.
I heard that Eliyahu HaNavi revealed some parts of Kabbalah down to The Arizal. Also, Jacob studied Kabbalah in Tzvat at the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever. The Cave of Shem and Ever still exists in Tzvat. The first Kabbalah came from the time of Adam. Obviously it is also part of Torah Mi Sinai.
-
Binyamin- soo everyone who disagrees is a leftists? Am I a leftists then? Is the Yaabetz, Chatam Sofer, Rav Saadia Gaon, Rambam as well (who came out against a "Kabbalah" book that is still popular today and was already written at his time, unlike the Zohar of which he didn't even hear about as it wasn't written or "revealed" as you would believe) and many others also all leftists then?
-
I said Leftist to mean anti-religious Liberals. You know what I mean. The Secular university "Bible scholars" who are into Biblical criticism. They also attack the Oral Torah saying that if it was transmitted orally, it would loose the original message and change over the hundreds of years since Sinai. The same people who deny the Oral Torah would use the same arguments against Kabbalah.
On the other hand all the Leftist Hollyweird people like Kabbalah as if it's some trend. Then people describe it as a "sect of Judaism". Kabbalah is not a movement or a "sect" of Judaism. It is the fourth level of Torah after Chumash, Oral Law, and Midrash. It would be like if people said Torah Judaism is a sect of Judaism.
-
Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai revealed it. I don't know if he wrote it down but he might have transmitted it orally until the Written Zohar was written down. That's why it has some Spanish in it. Leftists claim the Spanish makes it not real. But the Talmud has Aramaic. If it's transmitted orally, it will obviously be written in the vernacular of the person writing it down.
I heard that Eliyahu HaNavi revealed some parts of Kabbalah down to The Arizal. Also, Jacob studied Kabbalah in Tzvat at the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever. The Cave of Shem and Ever still exists in Tzvat. The first Kabbalah came from the time of Adam. Obviously it is also part of Torah Mi Sinai.
Yes, this is what we believe to be true. Those who are arguing against it just have decided to reject these teachings.
I think the Talmud refers to Kabbalah as part of PaRDeS... The Four levels of interpretation:
1) Pshat
2) Remes
3) Drash
4) Sod = Deep Secrets / Kabbalah
-
(http://www.jonathan5742.com/Right_Wing_Zionist_Homepage/tzvat7.jpg) This is where Jacob studied Kabbalah on the way to Haran.
-
Binyamin- yett the people I brought down some of them were giant Torah scholars and the leaders of the generation. Are they leftists as well for rejecting the Zohar and what you believe to be the Kabbalah?
Saying that because leftist academics reject it soo therefor we have to accept it is a false argument. + if you will lump this together with the Talmudh etc. and then 1 day come to reject it you could falsely come to reject all together by lumping them together, soo be careful and know these are different subjects entirely.
-
I was only referring to the Leftist "academic" types by using the word Leftist. I wasn't referring to the types of people you refer to. But I do think that there is a problematic sect of Yemenites that act like Rambam is the ultimate authority. Are they called Dardaists? I heard about it years ago. I think they hold by a rabbi called Kapach. How can you reject all other rabbis and only follow Rambam?
-
I was only referring to the Leftist "academic" types by using the word Leftist. I wasn't referring to the types of people you refer to. But I do think that there is a problematic sect of Yemenites that act like Rambam is the ultimate authority. Are they called Dardaists? I heard about it years ago. I think they hold by a rabbi called Kapach. How can you reject all other rabbis and only follow Rambam?
Yes, it seems some people believe Rambam is the ONLY one who decides what is Jewish and what is not. This was discussed the other day when it seemed that some people were arguing that Rambams 13 principles are not universal (which I believe are a universal measure of Jewish belief).
-
Binyamin- yett the people I brought down some of them were giant Torah scholars and the leaders of the generation. Are they leftists as well for rejecting the Zohar and what you believe to be the Kabbalah?
Saying that because leftist academics reject it soo therefor we have to accept it is a false argument. + if you will lump this together with the Talmudh etc. and then 1 day come to reject it you could falsely come to reject all together by lumping them together, soo be careful and know these are different subjects entirely.
Both Talmud and Kabbalah have been attacked for as long as there have been Jews. I think people will give up Talmud before they give up Kabbalah, as Kabbalah is a part of our minhagim and our rituals.
-
Both Talmud and Kabbalah have been attacked for as long as there have been Jews. I think people will give up Talmud before they give up Kabbalah, as Kabbalah is a part of our minhagim and our rituals.
:o .Maybe true for some, still very very shocking and disturbing to say the least.
-
:o .Maybe true for some, still very very shocking and disturbing to say the least.
We don't want any Jews to turn away from Hashem.... I am assuming you agree with me on this.
Judaism seeks the truth, so long as the search for truth is for the sake of Heaven, and the goal is the redemption of the world (rectifying it to the point of the Messianic age)... Is this not true?
-
Let me clarify that I believe that a person, a Baal Teshuva, should first learn the Pshat of the Chumash. The simple meaning of the Torah is very enlightening, and as adults it is often better understood than the learning we did of it when we were young (even Bar Mitzvah age). When I came back to my faith I found the learning of Chumash very interesting and I learned great things about our history.
Pshat leads to learning some of Midrashim which fill in the basics of the Torah stories. Often the Torah skips and jumps around in time and doesn't fully explore the topics which are being discussed. Midrashim provide the back-plot to many of the Torah stories. Although it is said that Midrashim don't exactly reflect facts but ideas which were to be passed down in the oral mesorah.
It is essential to spend time learning all parts of the Jewish Tanach. The Prophets (which we read every Shabbat for Haftarah) and the Writings (which we read on the Yom Tovim) provide a historic look at the Jews during a very crucial period of our history.
Midrashim make up the Remes & Sod parts of the interpretation of the Torah. But more depth is possible using techniques such as gematria and word analysis (don't say this, say this...) which lead to new concepts. These techniques were used by several of the great Rabbis of the 15-18th centuries and led to the writing of many great sefers on deeper Torah topics including actual Kabbalistic ideas.
I believe that starting at the beginning is the best path. Start with the Pshat, but never get tired of learning because the deeper levels of Torah help keep it interesting, and provide a way to keep your mind on Hashem every waking hour. These are my personal thoughts on Torah learning.
-
My point was... Kabbalah would have been a heresy to the gentile Christians, so it was kept secret by the Jews until later. Maybe you guys abandoned it out of fear of being accused of Satanism, and it stuck. Now here you are, fighting about a belief Jews had originally.
What sort of influence would Jews have received in Eastern Europe?
The Torah seems pretty mystical to me. Also why were some books left out of the Tanach?
Did that make sense?
Sorry, but in light of even a superficial knowledge of Jewish history, your claims are laughable.
My point was... Kabbalah would have been a heresy to the gentile Christians, so it was kept secret by the Jews until later. Maybe you guys abandoned it out of fear of being accused of Satanism, and it stuck. Now here you are, fighting about a belief Jews had originally.
And maybe the moon is made of cheese. It seems to me that rather than study Jewish history and what actually happened you are inventing speculation about past events (really, non-events) to fit your own personal beliefs.
Judaism itself was a heresy to gentiles, especially once gentiles formed the Catholic Church and the Byzantine empire. We lived and breathed heresy in the eyes of those gentiles and we did not make our religion into some secret. We practiced it and were persecuted severely.
There is not one kabbalist or scholar of kabbalah who claims that it was kept hidden because of fear of the gentiles. Not one.
As for "abandoning it" that is absurd. Whatever form of kabalah existed was known by some and not by others. It was not utilized or cited in the entire Talmud. Do you realize that all of Judaism is based on Talmud's interpretation and application of Written Torah? And do you realize how massive a work the Talmud is and how it was put together literally over hundreds of years? And not one mention of kabalah by those sages who saw fit to preserve Judaic thought and practice for posterity in writing.
Whatever small circles were involved in initiating "kabalah" (probably not chazal) kept it secret probably because it was not sanctioned! It then evolved and grew over time until Moshe DeLeon wrote the Zohar and his heirs published it. At the point of publication it now became known to the wider Jewish world and those who rejected its ideas rejected it, while those who accepted its ideas embraced it. And that is why today you see some Jews arguing over this subject. More than that, they also argue even among those who "accept" zohar as non-heretical, over its proper role and level of authority in Jewish life. Even that is very unclear and often debated.
What sort of influence would Jews have received in Eastern Europe?
They had many sorts of influences, the strongest of which was an experience of the gentiles' visceral hatred that eventually culminated in the holocaust. I'm not really sure what you are asking, was this meant to be some kind of cryptic question? You'll have to be more clear.
For many generations the Jews had a degree of separation from the non-Jews in where they lived, what they did, what jobs they worked, etc. It's a complicated history I can't explain here in two lines.
If you think that kabalah became public knowledge in Eastern Europe, you are severely mistaken. It was in SPAIN, in the 1400's that it became popularized because Moshe Deleon wrote the zohar and his heirs published it. It spread in the Sephardic world but some did not accept its supposed authority. The chassidic movement is eons later.
The Torah seems pretty mystical to me. Also why were some books left out of the Tanach?
Did that make sense?
To answer your question: No, it did not make sense. Again, if you have a specific point to make, go ahead and make it. If you have a specific question, ask away. Asking a cryptic question where you are clearly trying to make some point with your question but since you are assuming your conclusion its obvious to you, while no one else really understands what you're getting at with the question, is not productive and not helpful.
The Torah seems pretty mystical to you. Ok, then. I don't understand what you're getting at.
And why were some books left out of the Tanach? Because the anshei knesset hagedola determined that they did not belong or were not on the same tier as other books which were included in the tanakkh when they canonized it.
These are straightforward answers, but it's clear to me you are trying to imply something. But I have no idea what.
If you pose your thought in a straight forward way, then we can subject it to proper scrutiny. Saying these cryptic one-liners doesn't help anyone.
-
Both Talmud and Kabbalah have been attacked for as long as there have been Jews. I think people will give up Talmud before they give up Kabbalah, as Kabbalah is a part of our minhagim and our rituals.
Say what?
Are you suggesting the Talmud doesn't record our minhagim and rituals? Nope, try again.
-
Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai revealed it.
Revealed it to whom exactly?
That is plain nonsense. And there are even Kabalists today who do NOT assert that Shimon bar yohai is author of the zohar.
-
Revealed it to whom exactly?
That is plain nonsense. And there are even Kabalists today who do NOT assert that Shimon bar yohai is author of the zohar.
He revealed it yet it was hidden until much later. Get it? :::D
-
Sorry, but in light of even a superficial knowledge of Jewish history, your claims are laughable.
And maybe the moon is made of cheese. It seems to me that rather than study Jewish history and what actually happened you are inventing speculation about past events (really, non-events) to fit your own personal beliefs.
Judaism itself was a heresy to gentiles, especially once gentiles formed the Catholic Church and the Byzantine empire. We lived and breathed heresy in the eyes of those gentiles and we did not make our religion into some secret. We practiced it and were persecuted severely.
There is not one kabbalist or scholar of kabbalah who claims that it was kept hidden because of fear of the gentiles. Not one.
As for "abandoning it" that is absurd. Whatever form of kabalah existed was known by some and not by others. It was not utilized or cited in the entire Talmud. Do you realize that all of Judaism is based on Talmud's interpretation and application of Written Torah? And do you realize how massive a work the Talmud is and how it was put together literally over hundreds of years? And not one mention of kabalah by those sages who saw fit to preserve Judaic thought and practice for posterity in writing.
Whatever small circles were involved in initiating "kabalah" (probably not chazal) kept it secret probably because it was not sanctioned! It then evolved and grew over time until Moshe DeLeon wrote the Zohar and his heirs published it. At the point of publication it now became known to the wider Jewish world and those who rejected its ideas rejected it, while those who accepted its ideas embraced it. And that is why today you see some Jews arguing over this subject. More than that, they also argue even among those who "accept" zohar as non-heretical, over its proper role and level of authority in Jewish life. Even that is very unclear and often debated.
They had many sorts of influences, the strongest of which was an experience of the gentiles' visceral hatred that eventually culminated in the holocaust. I'm not really sure what you are asking, was this meant to be some kind of cryptic question? You'll have to be more clear.
For many generations the Jews had a degree of separation from the non-Jews in where they lived, what they did, what jobs they worked, etc. It's a complicated history I can't explain here in two lines.
If you think that kabalah became public knowledge in Eastern Europe, you are severely mistaken. It was in SPAIN, in the 1400's that it became popularized because Moshe Deleon wrote the zohar and his heirs published it. It spread in the Sephardic world but some did not accept its supposed authority. The chassidic movement is eons later.
To answer your question: No, it did not make sense. Again, if you have a specific point to make, go ahead and make it. If you have a specific question, ask away. Asking a cryptic question where you are clearly trying to make some point with your question but since you are assuming your conclusion its obvious to you, while no one else really understands what you're getting at with the question, is not productive and not helpful.
The Torah seems pretty mystical to you. Ok, then. I don't understand what you're getting at.
And why were some books left out of the Tanach? Because the anshei knesset hagedola determined that they did not belong or were not on the same tier as other books which were included in the tanakkh when they canonized it.
These are straightforward answers, but it's clear to me you are trying to imply something. But I have no idea what.
If you pose your thought in a straight forward way, then we can subject it to proper scrutiny. Saying these cryptic one-liners doesn't help anyone.
It was a thought........
What are you talking about? The moon is made out of cheese!
http://youtu.be/vJqrEz45sXI
Also, I have only been studying Torah for a year and a half. Does that mean I can't express my thoughts?
-
You can express whatever you want but I request that you do so clearly and directly. And do not hold good Jews. On this forum to some foreign standard not required of us by Torah! For our beliefs or our acti9ns.
-
The Mosque of Omar looks gloriously fragile and eminently able to collapse in on itself!
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/part-four-dome-of-the-rock/
(http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/blogs/uploads/2013/07/IMG_0258.jpg)
(http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/blogs/uploads/2013/07/IMG_0274.jpg)