JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Every Jew AK47 on October 05, 2013, 11:25:57 PM
-
I've been struggling lately with some Jewish scholars I have debated and their interpretations of Talmud. Consider I am a Kahanist and follow the Eye for an Eye mitzvah of Torah closely, I am clashing and have problems with many of these Jewish scholars who claim that criminals should not be punished in most instances. This man I debated is indeed a very well-learned man in Judaism and has lots of great insightful articles on various subjects. However, I parted separate ways from him in this debate and he was very agitated at me for challenging him and spending so much time doing in what he thought was challenging the Talmud. I admit, I regret that I would ever question anything in the Talmud, but I also believe interpretation can be subjective and misinterpreting facts or even having a myopic view of certain Rabbinical teaching can be catastrophic. According to this scholar, he claims that the death penalty is wrong, punishing criminals for assault, rape and murder is wrong in most cases. He claims Jewish Law condemns all the practices. He said the USA was bad because they sentence people to death without 1 witness (for Gentile) 2 or 3 witnesses (for Jew) who actually saw the murder committed. He said Talmud forbids the use of forensic technology because it is all circumstantial evidence.
To be honest, after this debate with the man named David, I was left with a very sick feeling in my stomach and a hatred for the interpretations I see in Talmud regarding justice and punishment of criminals. I'm no Jewish scholar myself, but I cannot believe the Great Rabbinical scholars of the past, nor Moshe Rabbeinu would tolerate armed robbers being let go, people who paralyze people in an assault/beating or rape only having to pay a fine. Also, forensic technology, IMO, is even better than a witness in most instances, as witnesses are fallible , but DNA and scientific evidence rarely tells a lie. I'm hoping we are not stupid like the Muslims who forsake modern technology and science for the sake of upholding certain traditions that may not be applicable in today's world.
I am hoping some Kahanist-minded Jewish scholars, Rabbis or well-learned in Torah/Talmud can please help share with me on these sensitive issues, as well comment on David's comments, especially some of the more obviously controversial ones.
Rather then me try to explain everything that was said, I am posting the entire debate here.. So please browse through it.. I hate to say that I was sickened and that end of the debate. I respect the man David greatly for his devotion to Torah and halacha, but I also feel he is being hard-headed, close-minded and irrational on the subject. I still don't believe if his pretty young daughter was a victim of what he speaks about, that he would just settle for a pay out.. Please, other people read his comments and follow closely, maybe later I can take time to bold the ones that truly disturb me. Tell me if anything he is saying from an ethical standpoint also disturbs you and sounds insensible?
I apologize for posting this, but I guess I feel very troubled. To me, Rabbi Kahane, JDL, JTF and all pro-Zionist, pro-active Jewish groups are about JUSTICE. I just cannot fathom seeing somebody who hurts another person, rapes a girl, terrorizes, maims kills other people, etc, to let this type of person go untouched, with nothing more than a fine. I just cannot accept it.. I hope this doesn't make me a bad Jew. It tears me up inside to challenge what others consider G-d's Torah, but I know in Torah, there was justice. In Galut, justice is suppose to go unchecked? What type of society would we have? Seriously, if somebody raped your daughter, would a bribe suffice? IF someone beat her so bad she was paralyzed, would the extra money be satisfying, as David himself emphasizes in the discussion? His comments got to the point of making my blood boil, yet knowing how devoted he is to Judaism, I couldn't do nothing but forgive and have compassion. He assured me he was right and I am very unlearned because of my sentiments.
The Sanhedrin had the power to execute a man for certain crimes - such as when he wantonly killed another man, or when a man raped another man's wife, etc. Even so, if the Jewish society were raised on the tenets of the Torah, there would have been very little of these types of crimes. Today, there isn't a court in Israel (religious or otherwise) that has the authority to execute a man for any crime, since that would require a minimum of twenty-three judges that had all been administered "semicha." We learn, moreover, in the Talmud that although the four types of capital punishment prescribed in the Torah (stoning, beheading, burning and strangling) have been cancelled in today's courts of Jewish law, they haven't been cancelled in heaven. For example, a person who is liable to stoning (say, for wantonly breaking the Sabbath, or a male for having connexions with another male, etc.), he can still die by way of a car accident, or plane crash, or jumping down from a high building that is on fire. Or, for example, whoever is liable to strangling, he may drown, etc., etc. May these NEVER happen to anyone of us!
In my humble opinion, if the Sanhedrin were ever restored, I still think capital punishment may not be restored for the simple reason that some of the people of Israel who are called, either, Israelis or Jews, are not all bona fide Jews. Some may actually be gentiles living amongst us, who pass on as Jews. This alone would be enough to forego punishing any man, since - if he isn't a Jew (either by conversion or heredity) he is NOT liable to stoning for profaning the Sabbath. The people of Israel, two-thousand years ago, were mostly known by their family pedigrees - but not so today. Only a few families know their family's lineage. That is my opinion.
Yonatan: Maybe, it makes me a bad Jew, but I just cannot agree with this teaching David.. I know it may be correct from a halachic standpoint, but in this day and age, I just believe criminals should be punished. By us looking the other way at criminals because we do not have a Sanhedrin, means criminals have free reign to rob, rape and murder and not face any punishment for the crime. And, if a criminal cannot be put to death, who are we to even incarcerate or make any judgement against the criminal? Even so much as imprisoning a person must have had provisions of Sanhedrin that are not made by today's standards?
I am sorry but if someone rapes or murders my family member I believe they should be executed. If someone murdered somebody you care about David, would you just sit and pray that they are hit by a bus? Especially, when that same person is free to go off and murder someone else's child , brother, sister, father, mother. If the law won't punish these people, then you bet I and others will resort to vigilante justice.
I am sure I am wrong here, but I don't care.. I never said I ever made that great of a Jew, because some things I just don't agree with. ANd, according to the teaching you give, the state of Israel has bloods on its hands for executing Adolf Eichmann and other war criminals. GUess what, my ancestors in Belarus were forced to dig their own graves in Europe, men, women and children. THey were all executed and some buried alive.
So you know what, I am glad that those sons of ****** were executed and I hope all those like them get the same punishment. Sadly, all the Muslim murderers in Jewish prisons are not executed and are usually released in 5-10 years in some type of deal to bring peace between Jews/Arabs, which never really happens anyway.
October 3 at 1:39pm
David: A non-Jew needs no more than one judge to be executed by a court of law, but a Jew requires at least 23 judges to be executed by a court of law, and these, only the finest of all judges. Still, it was permissible in extenuating circumstances to judge a man in ways not prescribed by the Law of Moses. No one is saying that criminals should be allowed to roam free. Still, judgment is not something that you hash out quickly in every instance without foresight and circumspection.
October 3 at 2:18pm
Pinchas: Yonatan, what David brings, is straight from the Gemara! Dont get mixed up with judging our own, and the enemy. The above is not about the non-jewish enemy.
October 3 at 2:57pm
David: I would also say to Yonathan that a Jewish court of law can only be made-up of men who are fathers, so that they will know what it means to have compassion on other men's children when they have fallen into ill-practices.
October 3 at 3:10pm
Yonatan: I can see what you are saying now.. That this law ascribes to the judgment of Jews.. I apologize for not understanding the depth.. Although, I would say if a Jew or non-Jew commits a murder they should face the wrath of the governing body.. I would certainly think executing a Jew would be a much more complicated issue than a non-Jew.. I guess I was thinking of nazi and muslim murderers.. Like, nazi war criminals or anohter example being the Palestinian man who killed all the children in the Yeshiva.. Had he been caught alive, I think execution should have followed torture.. Even if Talmud forbids, I still would think this and accept my fallibility and weakness.
However, I admit my own personal beliefs may counter what the Talmud is emphasizing and I admit David is in the right and I am in the wrong. As I said, I never would make a good Jew, on the religious scale.
Even, if a Jewish person rapes and murders a child, for example, it would be unsettling for me to pay his room and board, television, meals, recreation ,etc for the rest of his life. Perhaps, instead of living a lavish life in prison, like so many criminals do here in USA, at the taxpayer expense, they can spend the rest of their life doing slave labor and contributing something rather than being a burden to those who are law-abiding.
October 3 at 3:52pm
David: Yonathan, the concept of forcing a man to do manual labor for his crime is found in Jewish law only in such cases where the man has stolen property, was caught, and doesn't have the money to pay. He is forced to work for a number of years, but even so he is given many benefits. This is not the case for murderers, etc. My suggestion to you is to try to "re-program" your way of thinking about crime and punishment, using the standards set for us by Moses in the Torah, and which he heard from the mouth of G-d.
October 3 at 4:07pm
Yonatan: I need to do more learning and discuss this issues with various rabbis, as this whole issue strikes a nerve in me. What I would like to ask is why should I be responsible for paying for some child murderers room, board, food and leisure for the rest of his life? Why should my money go to accommodating someone who brutalized an innocent person, Jew or non-Jew?
Why should a man guilty of theft receive a more harsh punishment than one who rapes and murders?
According to Torah, what should be the sentence of a child murderer/rapist, for example, who happens to be Jewish? I assume we can agree that a non-Jew who commits such a crime should be eligible for death.
October 3 at 4:10pm
Yonatan: Thankfully, these types of crimes are not commonly committed by Jews, but I don't like leaving morality and justice unchecked.
October 3 at 4:11pm
Yonatan: Also, what provisions are made for apostates , like Jews who collaborated with the Nazis aka Judenratt, who helped the Nazis round up and murder 1000s of their own fellow Jews?
October 3 at 4:13pm
David: On the contrary, the punishment of a murderer is far more severe than the punishment of a thief.
October 3 at 5:53pm
David: By the way, the Torah does not distinguish between murdering a child, middle-aged man, or old man. It is all the same, and punishable by death. You seem to stress the wanton murder of a child as being more deserving of punishment, when, in fact, all deaths by murder are equally deplored.
October 3 at 5:57pm
David: Remember, in Jewish law, it takes two competent witnesses to testify in murder cases. One witness is NEVER sufficient to incur a death sentence. In non-Jewish courts, one witness is all that it takes.
October 3 at 6:01pm
Yonatan: I understand the Torah does not distinguish between man woman or child in regards to murder... I was only using the example to strike a nerve in people to hopefully shed light on the issue. Certainly , a human is a human, but would anybody here not be even more horrified at someone who murders an innocent little child?
Anyhow, I apologize, I am very confused on the whole issue of justice and punishment of wrongdoers.. If 3 people witness a Jewish man murdering somebody, then they can be put to death or put on trail? Without the Sanhedrin, what would be the punishment of the Jewish person, assuming there is 3 witnesses?
I also would be interested to know the punishment incurred for those who collaborate with the enemy, such as Jews who helped the nazis murder their own as well as Jews who have helped Muslims murder Jews.
October 3 at 6:27pm
David: That's just the point, Yonathan. The Torah is against inciting others or appealing to one's emotions in capital cases, before the judges have heard testimony about the case. Otherwise, you can almost be certain that there will be a miscarriage of justice. Demagoguery works on the same principle and is a bad thing, in my view. As for witnesses today who see a Jewish man kill another Jew, without a Sanhedrin of 23 judges, he cannot be put to death, but he can be incarcerated. As for collaborators with the enemy, if the man has repented of his misdeed, there is nothing you can do about it. If you catch a collaborator in the act of assisting an enemy or acting as an informant against his fellow Jew and which act threatens the life of another Jew, perhaps he has the status of "rodef" - a man who chases after another to kill him, in which case it is permitted to kill him before he kills you.
October 3 at 6:42pm
David: Have you ever asked yourself, for heaven sake, why if only one man witnessed a murder the murderer CANNOT be put to death in a Jewish court of law? After all, the man saw the murder!? Why does the Torah demand without compromise that a death sentence can NEVER be given with less than two witnesses who witnessed the crime?
October 3 at 6:47pm
Yonatan: This is a very complicated subject and I do appreciate your explanations about it David.. What I absolutely hate is injustice.. I know perhaps my emotions may at times obscure a my senses. However, I have also witnessed people who have murdered the innocent and live a peaceful life without any consequences as a result. That is something I have a hard time stomaching. There is a difference between chasing someone down with a lynch mob and taking the law into your own hands and watching someone who has through due processed, even with admission of guilt, guilty of bloodshed of the innocent and to see this person get a lifelong vacation at the expense of his victims.
This is where I have a tough time understanding these teachings of Torah. Without checks and balances chaos ensues, but if we cannot punish criminals, then it will be the innocent who are punished.
What I would like to know through halachic interpretation, is if we can not execute, but imprison, then what rules and regulations would be imposed on the person's incarceration? Should the family of the victim be forced to pay for his room, board, clothing , food.. Shoudl the burden be put on the taxpayer?
October 3 at 6:48pm
David: Yonathan, justice is not slack in heaven, believe me. An evil man will receive his desserts.
October 3 at 6:50pm
David: Why do you think incarceration of a criminal is not due punishment?
October 3 at 6:51pm
Yonatan: I can certainly agree with the mitzvah of requiring more than one witness. Obviously, anyone can say they saw anyone murder somebody else, including hte murderer. Mafia, for example, in the past, would have many paid witnesses who would collaborate to blame another person for the crime. What gets me is that even with these witnesses, forensic evidence, testimonies of the assailant, families , friends, etc, that the person still cannot be executed. But, then since execution is not allowed, what are the rules for his incarceration? Is it club med (known as club fed in USA) or is it solitary confinement, since hard labor is not allowed?
October 3 at 6:51pm · 1
Yonatan: Because I believe if you murder an innocent person, that death should be your reward.. That is my own personal feeling.. I know it may not be Torah based.
October 3 at 6:52pm
Yonatan: And the term incarceration is very vague... The guy who raped and imprisoned his daughter in Austria, as well as murdered her baby, Joesph Fritzl, is living very nicely in a very upscale prison, where he eats better food than me, has a gym and a very well-stocked library. All this is paid with taxpayer money.
October 3 at 6:53pm
David: Death can and is given to murderers in many States in America, but remember, sometimes in their zeal to bring justice they have also executed innocent men.
October 3 at 6:53pm
David: In Jewish law, you can NEVER execute a man based merely on circumstantial evidence, but in the US court system they do! That's bad!
October 3 at 6:55pm
Yonatan: And, I am sure the Israelis in their zeal to defend their nation against their enemies, may have killed an innocent Arab child.. Indeed , mistakes happen, especially when trying to administer justice. In fact, I am sure the American soldiers killed innocent German people who had nothing to do with Hitler's plans for world conquest and eradication of the Jews. However, I think more lives were saved by executing murderers in the USA than innocent lives lost..
October 3 at 6:55pm
David: Maybe, but that is the problem of the individual, not our entire nation.
October 3 at 6:55pm
David: But a bad legal system is a problem of the whole nation.
October 3 at 6:56pm
Yonatan: Well David, a lot of murderers, rapists and criminals walk free and are let out of prison early in this country too.. As a matter of fact, the legal system gives criminals many more rights than the victims.. We see it everyday.. A man can rape a woman here and be out of prison in a few years if not sooner .. More times than not, they commit they same offenses and become even more hardened criminals in prison.
October 3 at 6:58pm
Yonatan: Considering how many murderers are sitting in our prisons here, there is very few people who are executed and even then, the death penalty usually takes over a decade or more, with the appeal process to be carried out.
October 3 at 6:58pm
Yonatan: If murderers never have to worry about being punished for their crime what will stop them from committing more murders? Our prisons are becoming overfilled and the burden on the tax-payer, especially with all illegal immigrants in our prison is outrageous. Who is going to keep paying for the nice lifestyles of all these prisoners in our prisons, since executing them is considered unethical? Isn't it unethical that a hardworking man loses his house and lives on the streets (turning to crime,maybe) due to ever increasing costs of paying for prisons?
October 3 at 7:00pm
David: Anyway, the murderer is being punished. As for rape, this is a tricky topic. Sometimes a woman is seduced and she calls it rape. Sometimes there is full consent and she calls it rape. In the Torah, a seducer of a young woman is urged to marry her, and if she refuses, he pays her father a fine.
October 3 at 7:01pm
David: Thieves in Jewish law are NEVER imprisoned, but are forced to pay double (when there is a Sanherin).
October 3 at 7:02pm
David: Try to accept the judgments given by G-d who made us, but do not try to make your own standards of justice.
October 3 at 7:04pm
Yonatan: I'm still confused on the full nature of punishment of a murderer.. I'm also assuming forensic technology is not valid here? Does the Torah not make any accommodations for forensic technology that would undoubtedly be even more conclusive than the testimonies of various witnesses who's backgrounds are not known?
Also, what if the woman did not seduce the man to rape? Many women are afraid of HIV , so having some stranger jump them , drug them in a club or grab them in a remote area and rape them is usually not consensual. I won't talk about the cases where the woman is seducing the man into sex.. Many women indeed abuse rape cases and will file rape for any little thing... Once again, I am talking about a case where it is known through due process of the guilt of the perpetrator.
In the case of a thief, what if the thief cannot pay? Should he just be let off or receive at least some lashings , imprisonment? What if the thief committed armed robbery and is a threat to people.. Anyone who can point a gun or knife at someone is a menace to society, IMO?
I do accept the judgments G-d has given us, but I also would like to think that any questions on the issues can be answered .. I know Hashem brings justice and would like to know it is being served and that evildoers will not proliferate on the Earth.. In the times of Moshe, I know that evildoers received their reward. I do not really see that so much in our modern world.
October 3 at 7:10pm
David: Forensic technology is still circumstantial evidence. It is invalid in a true Jewish court of law, seeing that the Torah requires eye-witnesses who actually saw the crime. The only time circumstantial evidence is admitted in Jewish law is in monetary matters.
October 3 at 7:11pm
David: If a thief cannot pay, he is forced to work and pay back the victim.
October 3 at 7:12pm
David: Armed robbery is tantamount to a man standing and threatening your life. While in the act of an armed robbery, the proprietor of the house or shop is permitted to kill the robber. As we say, "He that comes to kill you, rise up and kill him!"
October 3 at 7:15pm
Yonatan: But if the armed robber is caught , let's say the police storm into the room and he drops his gun.. Then, considering he has not stolen anything, should he just be let free , since he has nothing to pay back? Obviously, this man will go out and do his crime again and he made even shed blood, which is not uncommon with armed robbers. E.g., an armed robber shot to death a man right outside my apartment in Portland.. The same robber was later caught and had quite a rap sheet of armed robberies, drug possessions, etc.
October 3 at 7:17pm
David: A man who is caught while trying to steal may still be reprimanded, say, by being chastised in some way. In Jewish law, if I'm not mistaken, he would have been beaten with a whip on his bare back. Had he been caught in the act of an armed robbery, he pays only the face value (principal) of the object stolen, and NOT double. The fine of double is reserved only for him who did not fear G-d, but feared being caught by man, and therefore acted out of furtiveness and stealth. You see, the thief was more afraid of man than he was of G-d, therefore he pays double. But the armed robber did not fear man, nor G-d. Since he did not put man before G-d, he pays only the principal and is set free! Yes, he is set free!
October 3 at 7:33pm
Yonatan: Thank you for your explanation on these controversial and complex subjects David.. I will consult various rabbis on the issue.. There are many things about Torah I don't quite understand in regards to justice, judgement and punishment of criminality in the modern world.
October 3 at 7:29pm · 1
David: By the way, even when a man violently assaults another man, he is NOT imprisoned, but only forced to pay for physical damages that occurred to the victim (e.g. loss of limbs), his convalescence, his being laid off from work, the pain that he might have caused him and the shame that he may have caused him (if applicable).
October 3 at 7:36pm
David: Imprisonment has all too often taken the place of true rehabilitation and correction of the criminal sort, while not only does he not pay for indemnities to the victims, but by laying up in prison his wife and children also suffer.
October 3 at 7:40pm
Yonatan: G-d forbid he assaults somebody I care about, I will probably end up the criminal then.. As I said David, I am a flawed person and not the best Jewish person around..
October 3 at 7:40pm · 1
David: You must learn. Yonathan.
October 3 at 7:40pm
Yonatan: I cannot sit back and watch some thug beat up an innocent person and just let him walk away scot free.. Maybe, I am too old and angry at the injustice I have seen in the world to learn.. Cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
October 3 at 7:41pm
David: While in the act, you are permitted to intervene.
October 3 at 7:41pm
David: After the act, you can do nothing, but take him to court!
October 3 at 7:42pm
Yonatan: BTW, I was a victim of assault once and I was almost beaten to death.. You too were a victim of such brutality.. I know firsthand what it is like to be brutalized and don't want any other person to endure such a thing.. An the one who commits this act I would have a hard time in my heart just watching the m walk away because they paid the medical expenses. I am sorry David.
October 3 at 7:42pm
Yonatan: Eye for an eye, David.. whether it is outdated or not.. I live by it.. For the most part.. I do believe in forgiveness to a degree, but not always.
October 3 at 7:43pm
David: Yes, in Yemen, but that is something else. It was by the police force of Yemen who thought I was an Israeli spy.
October 3 at 7:43pm
David: Paying the "medical expenses" is part of his amending the whole fracas.
October 3 at 7:45pm
Yonatan: I was brutalized by a gangbanger.. But a brute is a brute.. Someone who enjoys hurting the innocent.. Some people who brutalize people wear a military uniform others were gangster clothing.. Their hearts are similar.. Maybe, the men who hurt you thought they were protecting their country.. My feelings are that they were just enjoying themselves.
October 3 at 7:45pm
Yonatan: If somebody brutalizes me or someone I love the only thing that will pay back my bruises are their bruises, I don't even want their money.
October 3 at 7:46pm
David: So, take the gang to court. You are permitted to seek justice.
October 3 at 7:46pm
Yonatan: I agree, but as you told me earlier, if I take them to a Jewish court the only punishment for almost beating me to death is that they pay fines and my hospital bills.. That is rather unsatisfying to me.
October 3 at 7:47pm
David: They pay for 5 things.
October 3 at 8:07pm
Yonatan: Of course in the USA, if a person assaults somebody and is found guilty, then they would maybe serve prison time in addition to fines.. That is better than being just let free.. I could live with that more.
October 3 at 7:48pm
David: 1) Damages
2) Convalescence
3) Work pay (minimum wage)
4) Pain
5) Shame (if applicable)
October 3 at 8:07pm
Yonatan: I am sorry that I have to disagree with 4 or 5... Money cannot pay back the emotional pain and shame I endured from the beating.. ANd, if it was somebody I loved, most likely their blood would be the only satisfying thing..
October 3 at 7:50pm
David: No, anything more than what the Torah prescribes is a obstruction of justion or perversion of justice. Still, non-Jews caught stealing can be executed under the Noahide laws.
October 3 at 7:51pm
Yonatan: Ask yourself, David. IF someone brutalized your daughter, beat her/raped her , almost killing her.. Would you think money would be satisfactory compensation? It is easy to make such bold statements and I respect your devotion to halacha, but I wonder how you would handle if somebody you loved dearly was brutalized.
October 3 at 7:52pm
David: Wrong. How do they estimate pain? They take a man and ask him how much money he would be willing to receive to have someone come along and knock out his teeth, as an example. That is how pain is evaluated. Every man will endure pain for a certain amount of money.
October 3 at 7:53pm
Yonatan: I cannot necessarily agree with you here.. And what about those who pay endless amounts of money to restore their body?? It is a two way street.. What if the man beats he person so hard he is crippled?? Or, perhaps, he was blinded? Do you know how much money people pay to have their teeth fixed? How many people wouldn't give every penny in the world so they can walk, see or hear again! I met a girl who was beaten so hard and raped when she was a young girl that she was deaf the rest of her life. Somehow, I don't think any amount of money would have been satisfactory for her loss of hearing.
October 3 at 7:55pm
David: The cost of a missing limb is done this way. They take an imaginary slave and ask how much money will he sell for without a leg. Then they take an imaginary healthy slave and ask themselves how much money will he sell for. The difference accruing between these two sales is the price of a leg.
October 3 at 7:56pm
David: You see the Torah is fair and just.
October 3 at 7:56pm
Yonatan: So, if a person cripples another man in a beating, crushing his spine, they will use the cost of a slave as the gauge of how much he is repaid and that is suppose to be fair to the man who is now crippled? Also, considering there is no slaves in our society anymore, what what would we use as a replacement?
October 3 at 7:57pm
David: If he was blinded in one eye, it is the same scenario with the slave. Same with a broken spine. These are G-d's judgments.
October 3 at 7:57pm
Yonatan: If somebody beat and crippled your child, you would be satisfied with monetary payments, assuming the person was not caught/stopped in the act?
October 3 at 7:59pm
David: Yonathan, if someone beat and crippled your child, nothing that you can do in this world will revert that. It was G-d's decree. The perpetrator pays only so much, but does NOT pay with his life. Are you asking to punish him more than what he deserves?
October 3 at 8:00pm
David: Good night.
October 3 at 8:01pm
Yonatan: I suppose what he deserves is what the entire debate is about.. That is subjective.. As I said, my beliefs do not probably coincide with halacha.. I apologize.
October 3 at 8:01pm
Yonatan: Good night.
October 3 at 8:01pm · 1
-
I just skimmed through this, but this guy David sounds like a leftist libtard. Is he a rabbi? What are his Jewish credentials? What makes him the "expert" in halacha?
-
Hi, I read some of your post, the beginning at least and I do understand where both you and him are coming from and the critical mistake he is making. First off the Talmud or better yet the Sanhedrin is only 1 part of a whole picture. Yes he can easily quote you that they hardly executed 1ce in 70 years and the fact that it was extremely hard to put someone to death (and rare). The critical mistake he and many others are making is that they ignore the other branch of government responsible for civil order and safety. That is the Malchut- Kingship. And He the King (or ruler) has a lot more leeway when it comes to executing precisely the criminals you described (such as murderers). And even 1 witness is needed (if need be) and he has a lot more power if you will to make sure society is running smoothly. On the other hand the Sanhedrin is a lot more responsible in the education of society and within this framework the threat of the death penalty and the whip is also given to it when necessary (although like pointed out can and was used rarely).
-
EveryJewA44, go to the Rambam's Mishne Torah, Laws of Kings and their wars. I believe there the Rambam lays out that the King has separate court's from the Sanhedrin which have a much lower standard of proof to punish criminals then the Sanhedrin.
-
"Yonatan: Also, what provisions are made for apostates , like Jews who collaborated with the Nazis aka Judenratt, who helped the Nazis round up and murder 1000s of their own fellow Jews?
October 3 at 4:13pm "
Execution- by anyone who can do it. For example in a society that isn't makpid on people killing others it would and could easily be done, otherwise in other societies a person should watch out soo not to be then killed himself. But the Talmud and Rambam brings this down that bogdim, mosrim and apikorsim can be executed even without a trial. (If need be I will quote it for you).
-
I will add to the words of Tag-MehirTzedek that Rambam says there are easier standards that need to be met to execute non-Jewish criminals who violate basic society morality than the standards used to punish Jews with capital punishment.
See Rambam's Hilchot Melachim 9:14. for more details.
Rambam said that Shimon and Levi made use of these lenient standards to punish the city of Schem (Genesis/Breishit chapter 34).
There are situations where for the benefit of society evil Jews would be killed without following the usual strict legal rules, even by the Sanhedrin and in some cases even by individuals.
My intent is not to give you firm guidelines, when yes and when no.
-
Hi, I read some of your post, the beginning at least and I do understand where both you and him are coming from and the critical mistake he is making. First off the Talmud or better yet the Sanhedrin is only 1 part of a whole picture. Yes he can easily quote you that they hardly executed 1ce in 70 years and the fact that it was extremely hard to put someone to death (and rare). The critical mistake he and many others are making is that they ignore the other branch of government responsible for civil order and safety. That is the Malchut- Kingship. And He the King (or ruler) has a lot more leeway when it comes to executing precisely the criminals you described (such as murderers). And even 1 witness is needed (if need be) and he has a lot more power if you will to make sure society is running smoothly. On the other hand the Sanhedrin is a lot more responsible in the education of society and within this framework the threat of the death penalty and the whip is also given to it when necessary (although like pointed out can and was used rarely).
So who is the King today? We have no earthly king, and probably will not till Moshiach comes. I do not trust the government today, it is not based on the law of the Torah. Also the King in Torah is not a monolithic ruler but rather a person who rules over subjects who love the king. The people make the King the King, not the King dictates over the people.
I believe that capital punishment is a good thing, and that justice needs to be meted out by the government. But I also believe that our current governments are corrupt. I believe that our current justice system is not trustable in issues of life and death. Only those cases which have the required witnesses and evidence which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the guilt of the accused do I think that the death penalty should be applied.
I do believe that justice must prevail, and that the Torah is very, very strong in explaining to the judges the importance of judging fairly. Prejudice, bribery, and biases should not be a part of judgement. "You shall not favor a poor man" and "You shall not honor a rich man" from Achrei Mot illustrate how important fair justice is.
Should a court, which is supposed to execute justice as if it were Hashem itself, put to death an innocent person? This is a very real concern.
I do not think that we should consider our law-enforcement and judicial system as if they are the king. I am sure Obama would love to consider himself the King, as he has already been called the Messiah by many...
-
I will add to the words of Tag-MehirTzedek that Rambam says there are easier standards that need to be met to execute non-Jewish criminals who violate basic society morality than the standards used to punish Jews with capital punishment.
See Rambam's Hilchot Melachim 9:14. for more details.
Rambam said that Shimon and Levi made use of these lenient standards to punish the city of Schem (Genesis/Breishit chapter 34).
There are situations where for the benefit of society evil Jews would be killed without following the usual strict legal rules, even by the Sanhedrin and in some cases even by individuals.
My intent is not to give you firm guidelines, when yes and when no.
So you suggest that we wipe out the entire city of someone who rapes a girl? I never heard it said that we learn any halacha concerning justice from this story. Could you provide a link which explains what you are talking about concerning Schem? I do not believe we can 'take the retribution into our own hands' otherwise we would be living in a society of anarchy. If you offend my family I should wipe out you and your entire family?
If you suggest that the King is the ultimate power in Jewish society of the Torah I say again that we have no King today. Who is the one who decides what action to take against the transgressor? Our current system of government doesn't even come close to ensuring that justice is fair.
-
Muman- "So who is the King today? We have no earthly king, and probably will not till Moshiach comes. I do not trust the government today, it is not based on the law of the Torah. Also the King in Torah is not a monolithic ruler but rather a person who rules over subjects who love the king. The people make the King the King, not the King dictates over the people."
King or ruling body.
King in Torah does have limitations yes (# of wives, "horses (or cars and limos in todays terms) and amount of $ he could amass for himself, but at the same time a lot of power and duty to execute justice. Also separate and big discussion and disagreement between Rishonim if he can just take revenge and if (and how much) the Sanhedrin could stop him or not.
Not about love, their is a real fear factor that is supposed to be used when need be. Example- he cannot be mohel someone who disrespects him especially publicly. That person would and should be executed for the stability of society- not to inspire disrespect and a rebellion).
-
So you suggest that we wipe out the entire city of someone who rapes a girl? I never heard it said that we learn any halacha concerning justice from this story. Could you provide a link which explains what you are talking about concerning Schem? I do not believe we can 'take the retribution into our own hands' otherwise we would be living in a society of anarchy. If you offend my family I should wipe out you and your entire family?
Rambam's take on why Shimon and Lewi did what they did (they stole Dina thus breaking one of the 7 Noahide laws, thus he was guilty, AND the city did not put him to justice which is another Noahide law- to execute the other 6 Noahide laws, thus they were deserving of what they got). Other Rishonim argue on this and also agree with the action but for different reasons. See Rav Kahane's Or Harayon when he talks about this case in particular as well.
-
Muman see this for example- (Better seen in link with highlights).
http://meir-kahane.angelfire.com/vayechi.html/
Parashat Vayechi -Accursed is their rage- Rabbi Meir Kahane
[Simeon and Levi are comrades, their weaponry is a stolen craft. Into their conspiracy, may my soul not enter! With their congregation, do not join, O my honor! For in their rage they murdered people and at their whim they hamstrung an ox. Accursed is their rage for it is intense, and their wrath for it is harsh; I will separate them within Jacob and I will disperse them in Israel. (Gen. 49:5-7)]
Simeon and Levi avenged Dinah, which constituted avenging Israel. Whoever says that their deed against Shechem was a sin, is mistaken, for G-d commanded (Num. 2:2), “The children of Israel shall camp with each person near the banner having his paternal family's insignia,” and our sages comment (Bamidbar Rabbah 2:7):
Every prince had an insignia. Each had a banner bearing the color of a precious gem on Aharon's heart...The prince of every tribe had a banner of the same color as his precious gem... Simeon's gem was emerald and his banner was green, bearing a picture of [the city of] Shechem.
If Simeon's deed in Shechem were a sin, how could G-d command that it be publicized on his banner? Moreover, Maharzo explains the Midrash: “Shechem: For their valor and self-sacrifice at Shechem. Although Levi was with him, Simeon was older and the main character. This is his praise for having zealously dealt with sexual sin.”...What occurred at Shechem surely did not constitute sin but self-sacrifice in pursuit of revenge in the right time and place. Whoever examines Scripture well will see that Jacob did not reprimand Simeon and Levi as if the deed were unethical. He only feared the outcome, the danger that might result (Gen. 34:40) “You have gotten me in trouble, giving me a bad reputation among the Canaanites and Perizites who live in the land. I have only a small number of men. They can band together and attack me and my family and I will be wiped out.” By their response, “Shall he treat our sister like a harlot?” (Gen. 34.31) they meant:”Surely no sin was committed here. We have avenged our sister, the victim of a heinous crime. As for your fear of the nations, to avoid profanation of G-d's name one must surely sacrifice one's life.” R. Yehuda bar Simon said (Bereshit Rabbah 80:12): [They said]:The water was muddy and we made it clear.
...If so, however, the question arises why Jacob cursed them (Gen. 49:5-7, current Parasha, see above). The answer is this: Certainly, after Simeon and Levi gave Jacob their answer - “Shall he treat our sister like a harlot?” - he silently accepted their argument, for all the aforesaid reasons. And there was certainly no sin in their killing the people of Shechem. Quite the contrary, they were fulfilling a great mitzvah of revenge and self-sacrifice. It was for this reason that G-d engraved for all time the image of the city of Shechem on Simeon's banner. Later, however, Simeon and Levi tried to scheme against Joseph and even thought to kill him. As our sages say (Lekach Tov on Gen. 49:23): “People made his life bitter and attacked him”: These are his brothers. “Masters of strife made him their target”: These are Simeon and Levi, as it says, “They are plotting to kill him” (Gen. 37:18).
We also find (Tanchuma Yashan, VaYeshev 13), “They said to each other, 'Here comes the dreamer! Let us kill him!' (Gen. 37:19): Who spoke to each other? Simeon and Levi.” Bereshit Rabbah (84:16) teaches: “'They took him and threw him into the pit' (Gen. 37:24). The written form is vayikachayhu, meaning 'he took him'. Who was this? Simeon. When was he punished? Later on when it says (Gen. 42:24), '[Joseph] took Simeon from them.'” Ultimately, it was Simeon and Levi who made Joseph's sale a fact. As our sages said (Midrash HaGadol on Gen. 49:5), “'Instruments of crime are their wares': This refers to the sale of Joseph.” When Jacob heard all this, he was shocked, and he understood that although their deed at Shechem was an act of revenge, a mitzvah and a duty, they were motivated by wicked anger. Anger is so unseemly that our sages said (Nedarim 22a-22b): “Whoever becomes angry, falls prey to all sorts of Hellish forces...Even the Divine presence becomes unimportant to him...It even makes him forget his Torah learning and makes him foolish.”Jacob now understood that Simeon's and Levi's deeds stemmed from anger. True, at Shechem they performed a good deed, yet motivated by anger, they ultimately went so far as to try to kill a saint like Joseph.
...To conclude, Jacob did not, G-d forbid, curse Simeon and Levi, but their rage, the evil cause of their sin. ...Zealotry and vengefulness are crucial attributes, but only if exercised for the sake of Heaven, as done by Pinchas, Elijah and others like them. ...Certainly, revenge, violence and murder are all grave acts, and when perpetrated solely for the sake of a king's or a nation's glory, or for personal revenge, they constitute an odious sin. Yet, whoever follows G-d's orders and duly clings to His mitzvot and values, applying mercy, kindness and peace in the right time and place, and cruelty, revenge and war in the right time and place, is serving G-d.
Revenge is rooted in Israel and in their great leaders. We find this with Samson. After he “smote them hip and thigh with a great slaughter” (Jud. 15:8), the base men of Yehuda came to hand him over to the Philistines, claiming fearfully (Jud. 15:11), “ Are you unaware that the Philistines are rulers over us? What have you done to us?" Samson replied (Ibid.), “As they did to me, so did I to them”. Samson was crowned with the title of tzaddik, “righteous one”. ...So great was he that Jacob thought Samson would be the Messiah (Bereshit Rabbah 98:14):”Jacob saw Samson and thought he was the Messiah. After he died, Jacob said, 'This one is dead too! I waited for your salvation, Oh L-rd!' (Gen. 49:18)
Rabbi Meir Kahane's son Rav Binyamin Ze'ev explains this in The writings of Rav Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane, HY”D: When Jacob blesses Dan, the sages tell us that through “Ruach HaKodesh”, Jacob saw Samson wreaking havoc upon the Philistines, and thought that he was the Messiah. Only after seeing Samson die did a disappointed Jacob realize that Samson was not the Messiah, and thus he uttered the words in our Parasha, “I waited for your salvation, Oh L-rd”.
There is no more disgraceful or wicked trait than cruelty at the wrong time and place. Possessing this trait can even lead to one's Jewishness being suspect, as in the ruling of Shulchan Aruch, Even Ha-Ezer, Piriah Ve-riviah 2:2:”Whoever is insolent, cruel, hates his fellow man or lacks kindness, is suspected of being a Gibeonite.” The word “rachamim”[mercy] comes from “rechem”, [womb]. There is no mercy like that of a mother for the child of her womb. There is an inseparable bond between them because the child is part of her body, “flesh of her flesh” (Gen. 2:23). Just so must be a Jew's mercy for his fellow Jew (if that fellow is worthy). It should resemble a mother's mercy for her child.
[Joseph's brothers perceived that their father was dead, and they said, “Perhaps Joseph will nurse hatred against us and then he will surely repay us all the evil that we did him.” So they instructed that Joseph be told, “Your father gave orders before his death, saying:'Thus shall you say to Joseph:”O please, kindly forgive the spiteful deed of your brothers and their sin, for they have done you evil'”; so now, please forgive the spiteful deed of the servant of your father's G-d.” And Joseph wept when they spoke to him. His brothers also went and flung themselves before him and said, “We are ready to be your slaves.” But Joseph said to them, Fear not, for am I instead of G-d? Although you intended me harm, G-d intended it for good: in order to accomplish – it is as clear as this day- that a vast people be kept alive. So now, fear not – I will sustain you and your young ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke to their heart. (Gen.50:15-21)]
[But, as Rabbi Kahane puts it in Peirush HaMaccabee on Shemot, Chapter 1]: To burn evil out of our midst – this is the greatest compassion for the world, for all who are compassionate to the cruel will eventually be cruel to the compassionate (Tanhuma, Metzora 1); because this convoluted compassion allows the wicked to continue to commit evil.
In The Jewish Idea, the chapter on revenge explains this further]: Love has its place, as does hate. Peace has its place, as does war. Mercy has its place, as do cruelty and revenge. The Torah dons sackcloth over the distortion of the concept of revenge, which has become a target for the arrows of all Jewish Hellenists and worshipers of the alien culture, as if revenge were negative and evil by nature. The very opposite is true! No trait is more justified than revenge in the right time and place. G-d, Himself, is called Nokem, Avenger: “The L-rd is a zealous and avenging G-d. The L-rd avenges and is full of wrath. He takes revenge on His adversaries and reserves wrath for His enemies.”(Nachum 1:2). Our sages also said (Berachot 33a), “Shall we say that even revenge is great, because it appears between two names of G-d?” 'A G-d of vengeance is the L-rd' (Ps. 94:1). R. Elazar responded, 'Indeed. Where revenge is necessary, it is a great thing'” [see Rashi].
“It is a great thing!” It is a great mitzvah to take the revenge of the righteous and humble from the evildoer. Whoever forgoes such an opportunity is cruel, and he denies belief in G-d.
-
http://rabbikahane.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/the-killing-of-the-shchem-residents-a-torah-perspective/
Vayishlach: The Killing of the Shchem Residents: A Torah Perspective
Posted on August 26, 2010 by rabbikahane
Two zealots are focused upon in our parsha: Shimeon and Levy. And the eternal question is if they were correct in their deed or not. This parsha has certainly been one of the more misinterpreted portions in the Torah in modern times, and as a consequence, so many improper conclusions have been drawn from it.
Why is that? Because indeed, there are verses in the Torah, which at first glance view the act of Shimeon and Levy as a mistake. One who reads Parshat Vayichi can easily reach the conclusion that the question is answered by Yaakov, when he says, “Cursed be their anger for it was fierce…” These words are directed at the actions of Shimeon and Levy in Shchem, and such words certainly seem to put the deed in a negative light. And so, this is how so many love to interpret the parsha, thereby condemning the brothers Shimeon and Levy as if they sinned in Shchem.
The Act of Shchem – The Pride of the Tribe of Shimeon!
But in contrast to this simplistic understanding, there are tremendous questions. Firstly, one who reads Parshat Vayishlach will notice that the Torah finishes the story with Shimeon and Levy having the upper hand. For in response to Yaakov’s argument that “you have troubled me, to make me odious among the inhabitants of the land”, Shimeon and Levy promptly answer him: “As a harlot should one deal with our sister?” And so the parsha ends, without a peep from Yaakov, with the brothers clearly putting the matter at rest. And indeed, the argument of Yaakov, that “you have troubled me to make me odious among the inhabitants of the land” seems to fall flat on its face, as the Almighty puts fear of G-d upon all the inhabitants of the cities from which Yaakov was afraid of. Could this not be a clear sign that the Almighty was giving an O.K. to the deed?
More than that, pay attention to the argument of Yaakov. He is not opposing them on a “moral” basis. He is not criticizing them for wiping out an entire city unjustly. No! This is not his argument. His is a PRACTICAL one – that all the goyim will come after us now. And if one is not yet convinced, know what it says in the Midrash – that on the flag of Shimeon was nothing more and nothing less than a PICTURE OF THE CITY OF SHCHEM! Now ask yourselves: How could one have on his flag a symbol of something that reminded him of his sin? But certainly the act of Shimeon and Levy was a correct and positive act, to such an extent that it waves proudly on the flag of Shimeon.
The fact is that none of the Jewish commentators condemn the act. Forexample, Rambam explains that Shimeon and Levy were justified because the people of Shchem did not put Shchem Ben Hamor on trial for his crime of raping Dina, thus violating the seven laws of Bnei Noach, and therefore being worthy of death. The Maharal argues with the Rambam, stating that one can’t expect a people to put it’s prince on trial, because they are afraid of him. He therefore offers an alternative explanation. The Maharal says that the children of Israel behaved as in all wars, where there is a law of collective punishment, and even though one is supposed to call for peace first, this is only when you were not wronged by them. But since in this case, they ‘broke the fence” first with their rape of Dina, one needn’t call them to peace. (Gur Aryeh, Vayishlach)
And so, all this makes us quite curious to know why Yaakov said in Parshat Vayichi: “Cursed is their anger for it was fierce”?
The Act – Good. The Motive – Not So Good.
The answer to this question touches upon the deep and delicate subjectconcerning the MOTIVE that stands behind the actions of a person. Yaakov, in his wisdom, evidently understood that while the act of Shimeon and Levy was a Kiddush Hashem, he also came to the conclusion later on that the motive standing behind the deed was not 100% pure. When did Yaakov understand this? When it became clear that the major culprits in the selling of Yosef were the same Shimeon and Levy (as the sages tell us in another place), Yaakov knew that their zealotry was not always
channeled in the proper direction. He said to them: “For in their anger they slew men, and in their self-will they houghed an ox”. Rashi tell us that the “men” they slew were Hamor and the men of Shchem, and the “ox” they houghed was Yosef, who was termed “ox”. This was the problem. After being zealous for a good cause, they went out later to hurt their brother. The act of plotting to kill Yosef shed light on their act in Shchem. It meant that their motive there was somehow flawed; and they were not acting solely “LeShame Shamayim”. It showed that there was a characteristic of anger in them, not always directed properly. And so Yaakov said “cursed is their anger, for it is fierce.” Yaakov did not curse them, but rather their anger, to tell us that they are not cursed, but only “their anger” is. That is, the use of the attribute of zealousness derived from anger, not “Leshame Shamayim”.
Interestingly enough, we see that the tribe of Levi indeed succeeded incleansing their motives, and acting “LeShame Shamayim”. It was they who slew their brethren for the sin of the Golden Calf, and it was Pinchas who was also zealous for G-d’s sake, slaying Zimri. Zimri Ben Salu, the Jewish leader who prostituted himself, was from the tribe of Shimeon. Pinchas, who was zealous against such lewdness came from the tribe of Levy. A zealot and son of a zealot – but this time with absolutely pure motives. The tribe of Levy succeeded in sublimating it’s attribute of
anger, thereby purifying it’s motives as Yaakov requested. Shimeon apparently could not straighten out his “middot”, falling victim to the very same sin he was once zealous for.
-
I also believe Chaim did a video on this, if anyone can find it.... (Also tell me where the video's are- the section).
-
Muman613 if you want an in-depth english explanation of Rambam and Ramban's understanding of the story of Schem, with its implications for modern society,
see the english translation of Ramban that is to say, Nachmanides with commentary by Rabbi Chavel to Breishit/Genesis 34:13
Most major Jewish book stores (for english speakers) should carry this translation.
If not I saw it is available for purchase at
http://www.amazon.com/Ramban-Nachmanides-Commentary-Translated-Annotated/dp/088328006X/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_4 (http://www.amazon.com/Ramban-Nachmanides-Commentary-Translated-Annotated/dp/088328006X/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_4)
-
I also believe Chaim did a video on this, if anyone can find it.... (Also tell me where the video's are- the section).
I believe I posted it in the Torah section for the Video Study of that week.
But you are missing the point of what I said concerning a Jewish king. Indeed the Jewish king must be respected, this is what I was saying. The only way a Jewish king rules is by the will of the people. There is a different Hebrew word between King (Melech) and Ruler (Moshel)
This is, in fact, the very essence of the 'malchius' of Rosh Hashana. Our accepting that all that occurs in life is directed from the 'Melech Ha'olam', the King of the Universe. There is a difference between a 'melech', usually defined as a king, and a 'moshel', usually defined as a ruler. The rule of a melech is accepted by his subjects, whereas, a moshel imposes his authority on unwilling parties. Rosh Hashana is the time for us to accept Hashem as the melech of the universe and, most importantly, as the melech of ourselves.
http://www.torah.org/learning/parsha-insights/5757/haazinu.html
http://www.shortvort.com/vayeishev-parasha/11244-the-ruler-and-the-king
Again, this has nothing to do with honoring the King, which is clearly the case (required to show respect for the King)...
-
Here is the link I posted in the Torah section for the Video Study of that week...
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,65714.msg571703.html#msg571703
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO9bbB5M04I
-
Where does he get it from that America is beholden to his ideas about the number of witnesses, etc for capital cases? The noahide commandments require gentiles to set up a justice system - we have no say in it. And the power to execute criminals is not solely in the hands of chachamim. On the contrary, the chachamim cannot be enforcers which is why a police force operates independent of them.
-
I appreciate the responses here and I am inspired and happy to hear there is a more rational interpretation on the laws of justice, punishment of criminals and crime. I know in my heart that this man David is wrong and promoting a very dangerous message. This man does portray himself as a scholar, and who does indeed know much about Judaism. Let's say he has much more book knowledge than myself, hence why I have came to here to ask for help from those who also have book knowledge who can counter his arguments that I know on an ethical and practical level are wrong and grossly misrepresented. However, he is grossly and dangerously misleading people with his teachings and false understandings of Talmud. I cannot hate him, because I do feel in my heart he loves Judaism. This man is also a convert, but has been living as Orthodox Jew for many years. He traveled to Yemen to seek out the lost Yemenite Jewish community and was arrested by Yemenite government and almost tortured to death in a Yemenite prison. THis man now has made Aliyah and lives as an Orthodox Jew and does not write many wonderful articles as well is one of most knowledgeable people about Yemenite Jewish culture and various Jewish minhagim around the world. However, because of the respect people have for him, including myself, is why I am so disturb at the insanity of what he promotes here on this issue.
I really am eager to hear Tag Mahir, Kahane was Right and others able to pick apart more of the things David has wrote. It sounds to me that Muman has more or less sided with much of David's teachings or interpretations, but I would like to ask Muman and others to seriously read in depth my entire conversation with him and look at some of the comments he made that I feel are irrational, mindless and impractical. Not only that, but I feel if people like David were to enforce such a legal system, this would be nothing less than every criminal's dream. What criminal would not want to live in a society where they can rape, murder, steal and fear nothing more than some legal fees or fines?
Indeed, i know people like David and Muman emphasize how the law has executed innocent people and I do sympathize with your sentiments. My relatives in Belarus, themselves, were executed by government officials, the Nazis. However, we must look at another perspective, which I feel is much more a reality in this world. What is a great crime to execute one innocent person or to let 100 murderers or dangerous criminals go free who will continue to rob, rape, pillage and murder? Without checks and balances we will live in a society of anarchy.
I would seriously like to hear more about what Tag-Mahir and others mention about the court of the King versus Sanhedrin. I seriously cannot believe forensic technology and other means of proving criminal actions are not allowed in Torah. Also, to me David saying forensic technology is circumstantial evidence is ludicrous. It could be said someone witnessing a crime is as circumstantial as a criminals fingerprints on a weapon, his semen in the woman's vagina, etc as somebody sharing a testimony that may or may not be true.
David made several comments that I believed are foolish, ignorant and unreal (especially in situation of his daughter was the victim):
- 1. Any man will take a beating/injury for a price, so he will be repaid equally for injury
- 2. If the man is dismembered , then we use dismembered slaves to gauge how much his own lost limbs, spine, etc must be repaid.
- 3. If a Jewish man is a traitor and killed many other Jews, yet wasn't caught until later, he MUST GO FREE, if he says sorry.
- 4. He says a convicted murderer must be imprisoned, but then refuses to say who must pay for all his years residing in prison. He comments how the prisoner must be treated well and not allowed to do any heavy labor. He kept evading this question, no matter how many times I asked.
- 5. He says that you are better off being an armed robber and putting a gun to a person's face, threatening to kill them, then to be a shoplifter or burglar. He claims armed robbers fear not men or G-d so they are better people, somehow. To make his argument sound even more deranged, he claims that if an armed robber is caught after he steals, all he has to do is pay for what he stole at face value. I'm sure 99% of armed robbers out there thank David for this teaching. Also, he says an armed robber must go free if he is caught. ANYBODY ELSE THINK DAVID's THEORIES ON THIS ISSUE ARE ANYTHING LESS THAN INSANE?
- 6. David would accept a pay out for a man who raped his daughter and infected her with HIV. Considering that every crime has a monetary amount that can resolve the issue.
- 7. Without a Sanhedrin, nobody really can be convicted of murder anymore anyhow, so you can murder and even with witnesses, it won't do much good, unless a gentile commits the crime. In that case, the gentile can be tried in gentile courts. Sorry, my gentile friends.. I am still confused on his interpretation of this and at times I thought maybe he even contradicted himself.
The list goes on and on about many crazy decrees he believes must be implemented for a perfect "crimeless" society.
Once again, I encourage people to thoroughly read through David's comments to get a good feeling for the depth of what this man is advocating, based on what he considers is Jewish Law. He accuses me of hating G-d for the fact I think criminals should be punished. He keeps emphasizing what if I end up condemning an innocent person? What I would like to ask, and in bolds is WHAT IF YOU END UP FREEING A CRIMINAL AND HE ENDS UP MURDERING INNOCENT PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU DID NOT STOP HIM? . I know the Torah /Tanakh talks much about how much G-d hates injustice, both seeing the innocent persecuted, but even more how much he hate seeing the wicked rewarded and not punished for their crimes, which is more or less what I feel David is advocating based on faulty Talmudic interpretation.
-
Muman- "The only way a Jewish king rules is by the will of the people. "
Absolutely not. This is not a democracy. In fact the first King- Saul was chastised greatly precisely because of this. He gave in to the demands of the people instead of doing G-D's command.
I dont know where you got that idea from? Will of the people? Seriously?
-
Sorry I didn't read your entire post, but I will stop here
" Not only that, but I feel if people like David were to enforce such a legal system, this would be nothing less than every criminal's dream. "
Dont worry about that. Since he is a convert he is not allowed to be in such an authority (although we love and value converts they still cannot be in places of authority at least not the first generation, perhaps their children) But that isn't the point, even Jews with that mindset would not be in any position of authority and you have nothing to worry about. Just relax for now.
The problem is also that Jews did not have rulership for a loooong time soo many of these things were forgotten and unfortunately only one aspect is known while the rest was/is ignored. Don't blame them just educate yourself and others and that is all. Don't be too worried about it and dont take it personal either. That is what he thinks is correct, you can point out some of the things said here for example. If he takes it good and well, if not, at least you know and are able to understand.
-
Muman thanks for the video.
I would like to copy this video to my computer and then re-upload it to my channel. I forgot the program I used to have where I could copy video's, also video's that I would then make into MP3 (for music).
-
About Chaim's video and RambaN- at least in my artscroll it says that they broke the Noahide laws over and over again. Perhaps Chaim has/had more in depth commentary from RambaN and the english has one part only.
Also it would be a good (separate discussion perhaps) of modern day society and the enforcement of laws on Bnai Noah and the implications especially of Rambam and RambaN on them. Would be interesting.
-
Muman- "The only way a Jewish king rules is by the will of the people. "
Absolutely not. This is not a democracy. In fact the first King- Saul was chastised greatly precisely because of this. He gave in to the demands of the people instead of doing G-D's command.
I dont know where you got that idea from? Will of the people? Seriously?
Where do you get that from 'Saul was chastised greatly precisely because of this'. The teaching is that he decided not to kill Amalek on his own, and for this he was greatly chastised.
You also realize that the Torah sees the King as non-essential. The ideal state of the Jewish people is to be a nation of priests and princes, able to keep the law without a monarch.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1935026/jewish/A-History-of-the-Jewish-Monarchy.htm
Then, in the year 2881 (880 BCE), after 400 years of being led by prophets and judges, the people approached the Prophet Samuel, clamoring for a king “like all the other nations.”
After consulting with G‑d (who expressed His disappointment in the peoples’ lack of faith), Samuel reluctantly gave in to their pleas, but not without warning them of the pitfalls inherent in having an absolute monarch.1
A king who rules as a dictator is not a king.
-
Where do you get that from 'Saul was chastised greatly precisely because of this'. The teaching is that he decided not to kill Amalek on his own, and for this he was greatly chastised.
A king who rules as a dictator is not a king.
One of his faults was that he didn't kill the cattle, he didn't do soo because some of the people objected and wanted it for themselves, he listened to them and complained to the Prophet Samuel saying soo.
-
1 Samuel C. 15
14 But Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?”
15 Saul answered, “The soldiers brought them from the Amalekites; they spared the best of the sheep and cattle to sacrifice to the Lord your God, but we totally destroyed the rest.”
24 Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned. I violated the Lord’s command and your instructions. I was afraid of the men and so I gave in to them.
-
One of his faults was that he didn't kill the cattle, he didn't do soo because some of the people objected and wanted it for themselves, he listened to them and complained to the Prophet Samuel saying soo.
I thought he had made the incorrect calculation that he would offer the cattle as sacrifices to Hashem.
Here is a discussion of the reasons for Sauls failing:
http://ascentofsafed.com/cgi-bin/ascent.cgi?Name=zachor-rena
Saul's failings
There are different sources enumerating Saul's errors and the reasons for his downfall.
His great humility was misplaced at times and caused him to falter in leadership. When Saul waged battle with the Philistines and Samuel commanded him to wait for him before offering the sacrifices they had prepared, Saul acquiesced to the impatience of his soldiers. He was then told that his kingdom would not last.
He was rebuked for being "small in your own eyes" and not assertive enough in his mission as "the head of the tribes of Israel".
King Saul also thought himself more righteous and compassionate than G-d himself and didn't complete the complete extermination of the nation of Amalek. This was his first historical mission as king of Israel and was meant to usher in the time of the Moshiach:
Instead he spared Agag their king and "the best of the sheep and the cattle, and the fatlings, and on the fattened sheep, and on all that was good; and they did not want to destroy them".
Not only that, but the next morning when Samuel came to rebuke him (after killing Agag himself), initially Saul tried to explain away his actions. Had he quickly realized his mistake and repaired the damage himself, he conceivably could have regained favor in G-d's eyes, for a penitent is even more favorable than a completely righteous person. After being rebuked, Saul did indeed express remorse, but it was too late.
The reaction was quick and harsh. G-d regretted having made him king and declared that his reign wouldn't last long. There are those that maintain that Saul reigned for only 2 years. Also, Samuel ceased to come to him, instead seeking out David, his successor. Regarding this error, the Talmud states, "Be not overly righteous like Saul, who thought to be more righteous [than G-d Himself] and had mercy on the wicked [Amalek]." (Yoma 22b)
All character traits have been created for a purpose and each has its proper function in the world. Both compassion as well as cruelty need be utilized for the service of G-d. It was grave disobedience for Saul to have thought his compassion superior to that of G-d Himself. Yet the decree against Saul wasn't finalized until his error involving the sin of accepting slander regarding the priests (kohanim) of the city of Nob, in which he mistakenly ordered the slaughter of all the priests in the city, of which only one survived.
The Baal Shem Tov teaches us that when one comes before the Heavenly Tribunal upon his death, he is shown someone else who seemingly has sinned and is asked to voice his opinion on the case (just as the prophet Natan asked David to pass judgment on "the poor man's lamb" - see Sam II 12). Only after he passes judgment is it demonstrated to him that his deeds were similar, and thus he decides his own verdict in the Afterlife.
Until this episode, Saul could have maintained that he acted against Amalek according to his overly merciful nature - an error, to be sure. But once he showed his own cruel side regarding the city of Nob, he is judged to have been rebellious against G-d on both occasions.
Anyone who sins and is ashamed, not making excuses for himself, all his sins are forgiven, as the verse states: "'…that you remember and be ashamed, and you will no longer have an excuse by reason of your humiliation, when I forgive you for all that you have done,' says the L-rd G-d." (Ezekiel 16:63). (Berachot 12b) Therefore, David the paramount repentant, merited to have a royal line of kings descend from him, whereas Saul's reign lasted a mere 2 years, notwithstanding his outstanding character traits.
-
Aish.com has this discussion of the kingship of Saul...
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48936347.html
LIKE ALL THE REST
Samuel is not happy over this request but God tells him to go ahead. Still it is clear that God is not happy with it either:
"Listen to the voice of the people according to all that they say to you for they have not rejected you but they have rejected Me from reigning over them." (1 Samuel 8:7)
Why are Samuel and God displeased, especially since Moses had predicted this turn of events and there is even a Torah commandment to do so?
The answer lies in the way the people asked for a king:
And they the people said [to Samuel] "... Now set up for us a king to judge us like all the nations ..." (1 Samuel, 8:6)
A Jewish king was not supposed to be a king "like all the nations" had. A Jewish king was supposed to be a model of what an ideal Jew is all about ― a model for the rest of the nation to emulate.
To ask for a king "like all the nations" suggests that the Jews wanted a big strong guy, like the rest of the nations-an all-powerful leader who would make all the decisions so that they could sit back and throw off that heavy burden of responsibility that they've had to deal with on a day-to-day basis. It's much easier in many respects to have someone decide for you, which is why the Talmud says that "a slave is happier being a slave" ― a slave who is well treated will give up his freedom to know that he is being taken care of and decisions are being made for him.
The Jewish monarchy, as described in the Bible, is a unique institution. A Jewish king has real power and tremendous responsibility, but he is not a tyrant or dictator. He is the model for the rest of the nation to emulate: a leader, a scholar, pious, righteous and God-fearing. He is a catalyst that enables the Jewish people to fulfill their national historic mission as a light to the nations.1
"Only he [the king] shall not have too many horses for himself...And he shall not have too many wives... and he shall not greatly increase silver and gold for himself...It shall be that when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself two copies of this Torah...It shall be with him, and he shall read from it all the days of his life, so that he will learn to fear the lord, his God, to keep all the words of the Torah...so that his heart does not become haughty over his brethren..." (Deut. 17: 16-20)
In the year 884 BCE, 393 years after the Jewish people first entered the Land of Israel, Saul is anointed as the first king by the prophet Samuel in accordance with the wishes of the people.
-
A king who rules as a dictator is not a king.
Hmmm. Nope. He's still a king. Just one who rules as a dictator.
You called him a king yourself.
-
Just to update people, David made another response in the debate... I thought I post it here.. I still haven't read all of Muman's comments and the very complex argument that has resulted, because it is a bit beyond me, as I lack the book knowledge. I was hoping that people could more specifically address David's comments, although I am sure the ensuing debate between Muman and Tag Mahir and others is a result of the fundamentals of what David was teaching to people. I will try to spend time reading the comments and understanding the depth of this spiritual discussion. As of now, I am still trying to find more knowledge to counter David's arguments which I know are inconceivable , dangerous and fallible, especially in our modern society.
I understand Tag, that I should not worry about what David writes, but he is a very influential character and many people believe everything he says, as it is Law, itself. Think, if one day, he gets into politics or influences politicians with his rhetoric the damaging affect this could have on Israel if he helps promote such laws into the already corrupt Israeli legal system. Israeli law already gives too much leeway to criminals and overlooks suffering of victims, but if he and other Orthodox with such false ideas promotes these ideologies at the higher level, I fear that with the large number of naive supporters of such ideas, they could one day be adopted.
David: Yonathan, there is a discussion in the Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 7b) about the nature of true judges in a court of Jewish law and what they are supposed to be like, where we find the requirement that they be cautious and circumspect in judgment, rather than rash. They are also vested with the power to beat with a stick certain types of offenders (Heb. מכת מרדות). This might sound strange or cruel to most westerners, but really it isn't. Once they are warned in this way for their rebellious conduct, they lay it heart and are less prone to repeat the same mistake.
In America where some hard criminals are locked in small prison cells with no privacy even when using the toilet, some may prefer death to such harsh conditions and humiliation. In Jewish law, we are not permitted to humiliate even the prisoner.
I was thinking the other day why an armed robber is made to pay only the face value (principal) of his theft, but isn't incarcerated as a preventive measure and deterrent from his repeating the same crime. Perhaps it is because all of us have in us a "yetzer hara" (an evil inclination), but one isn't judged as a malefactor or criminal simply because of this inclination. A man can only be judged by his actions, rather than by his thoughts.
13 hours ago
-
Again I think you are taking it wayy to heart. Don't sweat it. About robbery he is partly correct. Their isn't a punishment of incarceration (unless made soo by the ruler), but in general its paying either double or sometimes 5 times (not sure about the exact numbers right now when when each applies to which case). Having this is generall better then incarceration, I have to agree with him on this. Generally people come out bigger criminals after being in jail then they were before they got it. Now they can learn the best tricks of the game. In the Jewish system (ideal), the person pays and or/ is sold as a "slave" or "servant" until the $ is repaid or unless during the 7th year and Smhitta when slaves are freed. This way the person works for it and/or the first person he is sold to is a Talmid Hacham. In this case living with him he learns how to be a proper Jewish person. Its is work for what one stole and REHAB at the same time.
This is for Jewish thief. For others its a different system.
-
Again I think you are taking it wayy to heart. Don't sweat it. About robbery he is partly correct. Their isn't a punishment of incarceration (unless made soo by the ruler), but in general its paying either double or sometimes 5 times (not sure about the exact numbers right now when when each applies to which case). Having this is generall better then incarceration, I have to agree with him on this. Generally people come out bigger criminals after being in jail then they were before they got it. Now they can learn the best tricks of the game. In the Jewish system (ideal), the person pays and or/ is sold as a "slave" or "servant" until the $ is repaid or unless during the 7th year and Smhitta when slaves are freed. This way the person works for it and/or the first person he is sold to is a Talmid Hacham. In this case living with him he learns how to be a proper Jewish person. Its is work for what one stole and REHAB at the same time.
This is for Jewish thief. For others its a different system.
So a violent and dangerous armed robber who threatens a person's life should go free after paying twice the amount of what they stole or attempted to steal? According to David, if the armed robber is caught in the act of the theft, the armed robber is to be let free without any payment or punishment.
Sorry, but I don't want dangerous and violent armed robbers on the streets who will sooner or later murder an innocent life to fuel whatever habit or reason they have for threatening a human life to acquire some quick cash. What if the robber you let free ends up shooting a child the next time he robs a store? There have been many instances of innocent people being shot by armed robbers who have previously been arrested for violence or theft.
BTW, my father's friend was shot in the neck when he worked at a pharmacy a while back. The robber was threatening his pregnant wife at gunpoint and him and he tried to take the gun away from the robber. What should be the punishment for this man who shot my father's friend? My father's friend lived and his wife was unharmed. However, no guarantees about the next person this piece of human filth may harm.. Should this scumbag just be let go with a fine? Let's say this robber was Jewish.. Most likely he was not, but I like to know even if he was?
As far as the argument that prisons make people harder criminals, I can also argue a lax legal system has contributed even more to making criminals more violent and opportunistic.
-
EveryJew- 1) armed robbers in a Jewish oriented society are a rareity. 2) In such a case when an armed robber goes into someone's home the Halacha is that one can even kill him and not be held liable, because in such a case he could even kill you. (and their is a whole explanation also why etc. I'm just giving you very very little on it). 3) a non-Jew is killed for theft as he has only very few restrictions on him.
4) the system isn't lax, like I said their is a government system as well and Hachamim could even make protective measures when necessary.
5) Its better to rehab a person properly instead of making them much worse criminals. Look sat the U.S. jails. They are packed and growing. Giving more jail doesn't deter much. I'm not saying it should be changed just giving example.
6) Underlying way to change it is to give a complete remedy instead of putting on bandages. Under a proper system and proper education jails wouldn't even be needed and those who did commit this crimes would and should be made to change instead of made to get a "time out" and then cause more societal damage. Most important thing is the well-being of the society as a whole.
Lastly you should be mainly concerned about what you practically need to do to be a good Jew and not about these hypothetical scenarios and things that you would not have to deal with (you wont be a Judge will you). I would bet neither would David. Just deal with that you need to do and thats it. For example keep Shabbat and not say if and how a person who doesn't keep it would be executed or not etc. Just do it.
-
Again I think you are taking it wayy to heart. Don't sweat it. About robbery he is partly correct. Their isn't a punishment of incarceration (unless made soo by the ruler), but in general its paying either double or sometimes 5 times (not sure about the exact numbers right now when when each applies to which case). Having this is generall better then incarceration, I have to agree with him on this. Generally people come out bigger criminals after being in jail then they were before they got it. Now they can learn the best tricks of the game. In the Jewish system (ideal), the person pays and or/ is sold as a "slave" or "servant" until the $ is repaid or unless during the 7th year and Smhitta when slaves are freed. This way the person works for it and/or the first person he is sold to is a Talmid Hacham. In this case living with him he learns how to be a proper Jewish person. Its is work for what one stole and REHAB at the same time.
This is for Jewish thief. For others its a different system.
Absurd.
Nowadays the vast majority of thefts are done by violent criminals with violent attacks. Thus making them rodfim and a danger to society. Jail. Is good to protect society. Unless these thugs would prefer that we kill them instead. White collar crime is the exception to the rule, and sometimes even that is akin to murder such as a madoff esqueponzi scheme which leaves someone broke completely...
And what do you do when they don't have the money to pay back (let alone pay a fine on top of what they stole)? They are lucky jail is all they get.
Nothing is wrong with jail. One of the goyim's greatest inventions IMO.
And again it's up to the gentiles how they want to punish thieves. We have no say in their laws as determined by their scholars.
-
Absurd.
Nowadays the vast majority of thefts are done by violent criminals with violent attacks. Thus making them rodfim and a danger to society. Jail. Is good to protect society. Unless these thugs would prefer that we kill them instead. White collar crime is the exception to the rule, and sometimes even that is akin to murder such as a madoff esqueponzi scheme which leaves someone broke completely...
And what do you do when they don't have the money to pay back (let alone pay a fine on top of what they stole)? They are lucky jail is all they get.
Nothing is wrong with jail. One of the goyim's greatest inventions IMO.
I don't really understand what you are getting at. Should all thieves be punished the same because some of them are violent? I believe people should be held accountable for what they do, not for what others who do the same thing do. I believe that the Jewish system of justice is the ultimate form of justice and the current system is a pale imitation.
I believe more people are ruined by the prison system than are helped. But since there is not much else we can do, we will lose a lot of people to this system.
PS: According to Jewish law a Jew who cannot repay twice the value he stole can be sold into slavery.
-
Absurd.
Nowadays the vast majority of thefts are done by violent criminals with violent attacks. Thus making them rodfim and a danger to society. Jail. Is good to protect society. Unless these thugs would prefer that we kill them instead. White collar crime is the exception to the rule, and sometimes even that is akin to murder such as a madoff esqueponzi scheme which leaves someone broke completely...
And what do you do when they don't have the money to pay back (let alone pay a fine on top of what they stole)? They are lucky jail is all they get.
Nothing is wrong with jail. One of the goyim's greatest inventions IMO.
And again it's up to the gentiles how they want to punish thieves. We have no say in their laws as determined by their scholars.
I dont get what I said was wrong? I did say that someone who breaks into another's house can even be killed if need be.
Also a goy is subject to be Hayav Mitah for theft.
To your Q- if they (Jewish thief) cant pay back they are sold into "slavery" or "servitude" call it whatever, but for some time that is done. And on top of that I mentioned their is a body of courts outside the Rabbinic and even within the Rabbinic their are sometimes things made for the well being of society (and thus harsher measures if and when need be).
FYI my house was almost robbed today by 2 (possibly 3) n^ggers.
-
Tag,
I hope you are safe... Sounds terrible. I had my own run-in with some neighborhood youth a couple of weeks ago...
-
I don't really understand what you are getting at. Should all thieves be punished the same because some of them are violent? I believe people should be held accountable for what they do, not for what others who do the same thing do. I believe that the Jewish system of justice is the ultimate form of justice and the current system is a pale imitation.
I believe more people are ruined by the prison system than are helped. But since there is not much else we can do, we will lose a lot of people to this system.
PS: According to Jewish law a Jew who cannot repay twice the value he stole can be sold into slavery.
What am I getting at? I thiink I made it absolutely clear in my post. I was responding to tag's absurd contention that jailtime for thieves is somehow cruel or improper punishment. It isn't.
Most thieves in today's world are actually murderers- the vast majority. It is good they go to jail.
The Torah's sytem of slavery for thieves who cannot pay was appropriate in its culture, time and place. Today when slavery is nonexistent in the civilized world, it cannot be implemented. And it was also NOT meant for rodfim! (They could be killed with impunity). Lol can you imagine today a thug gangbanger who held up a store owner at gunpoint to rob him voluntarily giving up his freedom. As a "slave"? He would sooner murder the master than do that. Which was exactly my point about these animals being rodfim.
Please let's use sechel. The Torah's pristine core principle of protecting society at large from dangerous entities is UPHELD by the prison system.
-
What am I getting at? I thiink I made it absolutely clear in my post. I was responding to tag's absurd contention that jailtime for thieves is somehow cruel or improper punishment. It isn't.
Most thieves in today's world are actually murderers- the vast majority. It is good they go to jail.
The Torah's sytem of slavery for thieves who cannot pay was appropriate in its culture, time and place. Today when slavery is nonexistent in the civilized world, it cannot be implemented. And it was also NOT meant for rodfim! (They could be killed with impunity). Lol can you imagine today a thug gangbanger who held up a store owner at gunpoint to rob him voluntarily giving up his freedom. As a "slave"? He would sooner murder the master than do that. Which was exactly my point about these animals being rodfim.
Please let's use sechel. The Torah's pristine core principle of protecting society at large from dangerous entities is UPHELD by the prison system.
'
Can you provide a source for your claim that most theives are violent. My experience is exactly the opposite. Most people engage in shoplifting and small theft are not violent people. Even embezelers are usually non-violent.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement
The proper word for violent 'theft' is 'Robbery' according to the FBI site...
Violent Crime
Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. Violent crimes are defined in the UCR Program as those offenses which involve force or threat of force.
The Violent Crime section of this report provides more information about violent crime and an overview of violent crime data for 2012.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/violent-crime/robbery/robberymain
The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines robbery as the taking or attempting to take anything of value from the care, custody, or control of a person or persons by force or threat of force or violence and/or by putting the victim in fear.
Overview
There were an estimated 354,520 robberies nationwide in 2012. The 2012 estimated number of robberies decreased 0.1 percent from the 2011 estimate and 20.1 percent from the 2008 estimate.
The estimated robbery rate of 112.9 per 100,000 inhabitants in 2012 showed a decrease of 0.8 percent when compared to the 2011 rate. (See Tables 1 and 1A.)
In 2012, robberies accounted for an estimated $414 million in losses. (Based on Tables 1 and 23.)
The average dollar value of property stolen per reported robbery was $1,167. Banks experienced the highest average dollar loss at $3,810 per offense. (See Table 23.)
Among the robberies for which the UCR Program received weapon information in 2012, strong-arm tactics were used in 42.5 percent, firearms in 41.0 percent, and knives or cutting instruments in 7.8 percent. Other dangerous weapons were used in 8.8 percent of robberies in 2012. (Based on Table 19.)
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/property-crime/larceny-theft/larcenytheftmain
The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines larceny-theft as the unlawful taking, carrying, leading, or riding away of property from the possession or constructive possession of another. Examples are thefts of bicycles, motor vehicle parts and accessories, shoplifting, pocket-picking, or the stealing of any property or article that is not taken by force and violence or by fraud. Attempted larcenies are included. Embezzlement, confidence games, forgery, check fraud, etc., are excluded.
Overview
In 2012, there were an estimated 6,150,598 larceny-thefts nationwide. The number of larceny-thefts remained virtually the same when compared with the 2011 estimate, but dropped 6.6 percent when compared with the 2008 estimate, and declined 12.5 percent when compared with the 2003 estimate.
The rate of estimated larceny-thefts in 2012 was 1,959.3 per 100,000 inhabitants. From 2011 to 2012, the rate of estimated larceny-thefts declined 0.7 percent, and from 2003 to 2012, the rate decreased 18.9 percent. (See Tables 1 and 1A.)
Larceny-thefts accounted for an estimated 68.5 percent of property crimes in 2012. (Based on Table 1.)
The average value of property taken during larceny-thefts was $987 per offense. When the average value is applied to the estimated number of larceny-thefts, the loss to victims nationally was more than $6 billion. (Based on Tables 1 and 23.)
Twenty-four percent of larceny-thefts were thefts from motor vehicles. (See Table 23.)
-
Sorry, that I have gotten a bit lost in this debate.. Maybe, I can now direct my question to Muman.. Muman, I am not sure in the heat of the debating of the forum that you read my post in this thread about my father's friend, if not I would ask you scan the thread for my post.
After reading it, if you haven't already, I would like to ask you, your opinion on the issue.
First, according to halacha, what should be the punishment for the man that shot my father's friend in the neck? As I wrote in my post he was threatening his pregnant wife with a gun and then attempted to wrestle the gun out of his hand, which resulted in him getting shot.
Second, assuming the man shot was your brother or your sister's husband (same situation), what then would you think should be done to the perpetrator, based on the feelings of your heart, leaving all legality aside for a moment? As the police would say in legal matters, the second response would be "off the record", leaving all halachic interpretation aside. I'd just love to hear you put aside this deep theological debate for a moment and answer this question based on your own personal feelings, being a Kahanist minded Jew, as well as a human being.
I do appreciate your insight Muman and I definitely know that both you, Tag and Kahane was Right are all very devout Jews, knowledgeable in halacha and noble people from reading your previous posts and seeing you on the forum for years.
Thank you my friend.
-
Sorry, that I have gotten a bit lost in this debate.. Maybe, I can now direct my question to Muman.. Muman, I am not sure in the heat of the debating of the forum that you read my post in this thread about my father's friend, if not I would ask you scan the thread for my post.
After reading it, if you haven't already, I would like to ask you, your opinion on the issue.
First, according to halacha, what should be the punishment for the man that shot my father's friend in the neck? As I wrote in my post he was threatening his pregnant wife with a gun and then attempted to wrestle the gun out of his hand, which resulted in him getting shot.
Second, assuming the man shot was your brother or your sister's husband (same situation), what then would you think should be done to the perpetrator, based on the feelings of your heart, leaving all legality aside for a moment? As the police would say in legal matters, the second response would be "off the record", leaving all halachic interpretation aside. I'd just love to hear you put aside this deep theological debate for a moment and answer this question based on your own personal feelings, being a Kahanist minded Jew, as well as a human being.
I do appreciate your insight Muman and I definitely know that both you, Tag and Kahane was Right are all very devout Jews, knowledgeable in halacha and noble people from reading your previous posts and seeing you on the forum for years.
Thank you my friend.
Shalom EJa44,
I appreciate the kind words you have written regarding your opinion of me. I only hope to be able to live up to you expectations. But I will try to help as much as I can.
I believe I understand where you are coming from. Let me just say that my emotional reaction is that the perpetrator needs to do some hard time. As you know my brother died violently at the hands of the 9/11 terrorists on that day. I demand justice for all those involved in the plot, those who supported it with money or encouragement. It is difficult to live through violent crime, as it appears your family has through your fathers friend.
Halachically I believe that murder, and attempted murder, justify the death penalty. The Torah many times says that if one sheds another mans blood, his own blood will be spilled. In the case of murder there is no reprieve from the penalty, it is death. We should have no pity on the wicked, and their souls are purified by the execution.
Today we live in a world which is very much flawed compared to the vision of our Torah. Justice has been perverted, and sometimes the guilty walk free (witness OJ Simpson) and the innocent rot in prison (witness Jonathan Pollard). For the most part I believe that every criminal executed by America has been guilty, but there are some lingering suspicions that this may not be so. It is dastardly to have a criminal sit for 20 years on death row, only to be let free before his execution (it is shocking to families of the victims). Do I have a solution? Not exactly.... But I do pray for the restoration of the Sanhedrin which is supposed to be the best and brightest of the Jewish nation (Mordechai was a member of the Sanhedrin also).
I hope I provided some insight into my opinion on this topic. I am one who demands justice when the offense is large, but I also ask for mercy as when I have been in court.
"Whoso sheds man's blood by a man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of the Lord made he man." (Genesis 9, 6).
-
I appreciate your response Muman.. I do remember now about you saying about your brother dying in 9/11.. So, indeed, you do know, firsthand, how it feels to lose some very dear to you through violence. I can respect your opinion even more, as I know you, like me, want justice to be served and may it be done swiftly!
As for me, I have experienced violence and victimization not only through my father's friend, but I, myself , was a victim of an almost deadly assault where I was horribly beaten almost to death. I was left bloody and bruised and thought for sure the crazy perpetrator was going to beat me to death. It was only a miracle of Hashem that I am alive to talk about it. I will say, no amount of money paid to me would ever compensate for the pain, suffering and terror I endured 16 years ago. For me it is common sense, but I understand with complications of implementing Judaic Law in Galut that we face struggles when it comes to bringing a criminal to justice, especially if it one of our own Jewish brothers/sisters.
As far as you meeting my expectations, don't worry, you have already exceeded them. I find yours, Tag-Mehir and the posts of other member's here, especially discussing religious matters and Jewish Law, very educational and insightful.
Of course, some issues , like this one, do strike a nerve in me and have caused me confusion and challenge my ideals. As Tag Mehir says, for now, it is best not to dwell on them. I guess in the end, I want justice to be served. What I don't want is criminals and those who hurt, rape, rob and murder the innocent to go unpunished.
-
What am I getting at? I thiink I made it absolutely clear in my post. I was responding to tag's absurd contention that jailtime for thieves is somehow cruel or improper punishment. It isn't.
Most thieves in today's world are actually murderers- the vast majority. It is good they go to jail.
The Torah's sytem of slavery for thieves who cannot pay was appropriate in its culture, time and place. Today when slavery is nonexistent in the civilized world, it cannot be implemented. And it was also NOT meant for rodfim! (They could be killed with impunity). Lol can you imagine today a thug gangbanger who held up a store owner at gunpoint to rob him voluntarily giving up his freedom. As a "slave"? He would sooner murder the master than do that. Which was exactly my point about these animals being rodfim.
Please let's use sechel. The Torah's pristine core principle of protecting society at large from dangerous entities is UPHELD by the prison system.
You didn't understand me. Go back and read my posts. I said that in that society at least (in a fully Jewish society) with etc. etc. it could be better as a whole not to imprison people not because its cruel but because it could cause more problems for society as a whole. Again im not saying this should be done just like that especially in every society, etc. You missed the point.
-
Of course, some issues , like this one, do strike a nerve in me and have caused me confusion and challenge my ideals. As Tag Mehir says, for now, it is best not to dwell on them. I guess in the end, I want justice to be served. What I don't want is criminals and those who hurt, rape, rob and murder the innocent to go unpunished.
No one goes unpunished if not in this world certainly the next.
-
EveryJew I found exact sources oer Shabbat in a book I have of Rambam's laws (Fundamentals of the Rambam on exact things you asked here) perhaps I will find and quote to you online now.
-
Halacha 1
Whenever a person kills a colleague with his hands - e.g., he strikes him with a sword or with a stone that can cause death, strangles him until he dies or burns him in fire - he should be executed by the court, for he himself has killed him.
Halacha 2
But a person who hires a murderer to kill a colleague, one who sends his servants and they kill him, one who binds a colleague and leaves him before a lion or the like and the beast kills him, and a person who commits suicide are all considered to be shedders of blood; the sin of bloodshed is upon their hands, and they are liable for death at the hands of God. They are not, however, liable for execution by the court.
Halacha 3
Which source indicates that this is the law? Genesis 9:6 states: "When a person sheds the blood of a man, by a man his blood shall be shed." This refers to a person who kills a colleague by himself, without employing an agent.
The verse continues: "Of the blood of your own lives I will demand an account." This refers to a person who commits suicide.6
"From the hand of every wild beast will I demand an account" Ibid. 9:5 This refers to a person who places a person before a wild beast so that he will devour him.
"From the hand of a man, from the hand of one's brother, will I demand an account for the soul of a man" ibid.. This refers to a person who hires others to kill a colleague. In all of the three last instances, the verse uses the expression "will I demand an account," indicating that their judgment is in heaven's hands.
Halacha 4
When a Jewish king desires to slay any of these murderers and the like - who are not liable for execution by the court - by virtue of his regal authority, in order to perfect society, he has the license.
Similarly, if the court desires to execute them as a result of a immediate fiat, because this was required at the time, they have the license to do as they see fit.
Halacha 5
If the king did not execute them, nor did the court deem the time as such to require strengthening the strictures against murder, it should nevertheless have the murderer beaten with severe blows - so that he is on the verge of death - and imprisoned, deprived and afflicted with all types of discomfort in order to strike fear and awe into the hearts of other wicked men, so that this death should not be a stumbling block and a snag for them, causing them to say: "Let me arrange to have my enemies killed the way so-and-so did, and I will not suffer the consequences."
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1088918/jewish/Chapter-Two.htm