JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dan Ben Noah on November 10, 2013, 03:08:29 AM
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Shalom
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Rabbi David Saperstein of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism said in reaction, "It's disappointing that he would give his stamp of approval to a group whose program is an express effort to convert Jews and not to accept the validity of the Jewish covenant."
Well, Deformed "Judaism" is doing the same thing...
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I know several messianic Jews, isn't it good that they would accept both the messiah, and the covenant of Abraham!
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I know several messianic Jews, isn't it good that they would accept both the messiah, and the covenant of Abraham!
Haaa, NOOO. The covenant of Avraham (or actually the one on Har Sinai as Avraham's 13 covenants were with the Brit Milah) includes following the Torah, and the Torah and the messianics ideology and ways are in polar opposites. Accepting any human being as a "savior" or anything like that is a smack in the face (not physically speaking of-course) to the Oneness of G-D which is the first Commandment of the 10 Commandments.
Simply not comparable. They also claim to be following only the "Written Torah" yet ironically the holidays they (claim) to follow and openly practice are the Rabbinic holidays of Channukah and Purim and NOT the Biblical holidays. They are a whole irrational mess trying to fitt in with the nations they are in (America) + many or even most of them aren't even Jewish but the Christian groups trying to blend in with Jews and sneekily introduce avoda Zara into the Jewish nation.
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I know several messianic Jews, isn't it good that they would accept both the messiah, and the covenant of Abraham!
I suggest that they will call themselves "Old Catholics" would you like that ?
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If Bush is as big a bungler converting jews as he was as president, then I wouldn't worry about it.
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I know several messianic Jews, isn't it good that they would accept both the messiah, and the covenant of Abraham!
JTF opposes all missionary activity. Your repeated invocations of the name of Yeshu is detrimental to the Kahanist movement and also is detrimental to the goal of JTF to work with Gentiles against our common enemy, the Muslim terrorists.
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As a Catholic, I can assure you these "Messianic Jews" are nothing more than Protestants playing dress up.
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This is more than disgusting.... Good thing I did not vote for this bozo... I am so politically disenfranchised I don't know what to think.
The last president I voted for who won was President Clinton. I voted for Gore against Bush in 2000, I voted for Kerry against Bush in 2004, I voted for McCain against Obama in 2008, I voted for Romney against Obama in 2012.... Losers all of them...
But I did vote for Reagan in 1984, and Bush in 1988.....
Messianic 'Jews'.... Booooo! Hissss!
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The only time I voted for the nationwide winner in the Electoral College was Bush in 2004. I voted for Gore in 2000 (When I was 18.). Obviously I voted for the Republican both times against BHO. Being that I live in a Liberal state that has not voted Republican for President since 1988, the only time my vote counted towards the electoral college of my state was 2000. 2000 and 2004 are the two times I voted for the winner in the popular vote. But you can say my vote was never for all three at once (My state's electoral votes, the national electoral vote, and the national popular vote.). The first 2 times I voted, my vote was part 2 of the 3 and now 0 of 3. At least my state has a Governor's election in an Presidential off year so the Republicans won. No Republican can win statewide here when there is a Democrat on the Presidential ballot because many stupid Democrats, especially the Obama AA crowd only come in large numbers when one of their own is running for President. The same can be said for Mo Muzzie. Mo Muzzie may have only won because he made Booker's election on a different date so the blacks wouldn't come out in large numbers on the regular election.
I will always vote for the losers in local elections usually (Unless no Republican is running like in the municipal election which is swept by Democrats so Republican don't even bother running.). I will vote for the loser or not vote at all for US House because of the AA innercity candidate being in my district after redistricting due to gerrymandering. In order to help ensure my former Congessman was re-elected, my Liberal district of self-hating Jews and other self-hating whites was put together with the mostly inner city black district.
The only Republican I voted for that won this year was the statewide state court position. If Obama was on the ticket this year, the Republican would loose that too.
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I know several messianic Jews, isn't it good that they would accept both the messiah, and the covenant of Abraham!
If these are real Jews, they are committing a serious sin. Also, a Jew enticing another Jew to do this is committing a violation of a separate negative mitzvah.
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The only time I voted for the nationwide winner in the Electoral College was Bush in 2004. I voted for Gore in 2000 (When I was 18.). Obviously I voted for the Republican both times against BHO. Being that I live in a Liberal state that has not voted Republican for President since 1988, the only time my vote counted towards the electoral college of my state was 2000. 2000 and 2004 are the two times I voted for the winner in the popular vote. But you can say my vote was never for all three at once (My state's electoral votes, the national electoral vote, and the national popular vote.). The first 2 times I voted, my vote was part 2 of the 3 and now 0 of 3. At least my state has a Governor's election in an Presidential off year so the Republicans won. No Republican can win statewide here when there is a Democrat on the Presidential ballot because many stupid Democrats, especially the Obama AA crowd only come in large numbers when one of their own is running for President. The same can be said for Mo Muzzie. Mo Muzzie may have only won because he made Booker's election on a different date so the blacks wouldn't come out in large numbers on the regular election.
I will always vote for the losers in local elections usually (Unless no Republican is running like in the municipal election which is swept by Democrats so Republican don't even bother running.). I will vote for the loser or not vote at all for US House because of the AA innercity candidate being in my district after redistricting due to gerrymandering. In order to help ensure my former Congessman was re-elected, my Liberal district of self-hating Jews and other self-hating whites was put together with the mostly inner city black district.
The only Republican I voted for that won this year was the statewide state court position. If Obama was on the ticket this year, the Republican would loose that too.
I would vote for an open negro Muslim before Muzz Muzzie.
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I don't live in NJ. Thank G-d this state (PA) is more normal and homosexual "marriage" is not legal. But there were a few local judges performing such fake ceremonies. Also, the Attorney General came out in support of fag marriage and is not enforcing the laws. The AG is elected here (It was when BHO was re-elected.) and she disagrees with the Republican Governor. She made some gay speech saying she in good conscience can't defend the law and is transferring that power to a different person.
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Messianic "Jews" are nothing more than Christians pretending to be Jews to convert disenfranchised Jews who want to return to religion. Aka Jews for Jesus.
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Messianic "Jews" are nothing more than Christians pretending to be Jews to convert disenfranchised Jews who want to return to religion. Aka Jews for Jesus.
Some of them are actually Halachically Jewish which makes it worse, since it violates the prohibition of enticing other Jews to commit idolatry. There are different opinions on Non-Jews and Xtianity but for Jews it is outright idolatry.
If Christian Zionists want to be blessed by G-d, they should refrain from missionizing Jews. Bush obviously is not a Christian Zionist as we can see from his foreign policy. His foreign policy brought disaster on this country that we are still paying the consequences for. Hurricane Katrina, the stock market crash, and the election of Barack Hussein Obama are all as a result of his foreign policy.
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According to Tovia Snger, there are two types of Evangelical Christians. The first are the Replacement Theologians that believed Yeshu "fulfilled" the Torah. The second are the Chrsitian Zionists that actually believe that G-d gave the Land to the Jewish People and want to support Israel and be blessed as G-d promised to Abraham. Bush belongs to the former while Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee belong to the latter.
Tovia Singer has Christians that listen to his show and he has Christians speak on his show. He is an expert on counter missionary activity and real Christian Zionists respect him.
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This topic should be in the Torah and Judaism section. Regardless, Georgie has moved from destroying babies to Jewish souls. YS"V.
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This topic should be in the Torah and Judaism section. Regardless, Georgie has moved from destroying babies to Jewish souls. YS"V.
Babies? I thought he was against abortion?
Or do you mean destroying Jewish babies in Arab terrorist attacks by the PLO Arabs he supported?
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Jorge Wahhabi Bush was a phony on abortion from day one.
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Jorge Wahhabi Bush was a phony on abortion from day one.
How is that? Because he didn't appoint a real Conservative to the Supreme Court but insisted on John Roberts?
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I know several messianic Jews, isn't it good that they would accept both the messiah, and the covenant of Abraham!
Debbie, Christianity and Judaism are two different religions. You believe the messiah has come and will come again. We Jews believe the messiah has yet to come, among other things. I personally don't worry about other peoples religions, as long as they don't try and harm Jews or try to convert them.
But I'm no fan of these messianic groups that try and trick ignorant Jews into converting.
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Babies? I thought he was against abortion?
Or do you mean destroying Jewish babies in Arab terrorist attacks by the PLO Arabs he supported?
Before donating to Jews for Idolatry, he would make out the lion's share of his charitable donations to planned infanticide.
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His pappy loves baby killing too
Dear Dr. Guttmacher:
My congratulations to you and your colleagues on your “Family Planning” Stamp. Efforts like this, that help further work of such worldwide importance, are something for which this country can be justly proud.
I’m honored to own this first-day cover and deeply appreciative of the dedication that it symbolizes.
Yours very truly,
George Bush
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And I want to add something else.
I think rabbis, parents, and Jewish organizations need to do a better job of educating young Jews. Once that happens, these messianic J4J's will have no power over our people. Tovia Singer does some good work. But I just wish there were more Jews like Chaim...
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Real rabbis don't affect the Jews that fall for J4J. Orthodox rabbis have a religious following. It's the people who have Deform or Left-Wing Conservative rabbis who are to blame. The answer is to have rabbis period as opposed to fake ones. Deform Jews have an empty religion and they seek something else. Instead of becoming good Jews, they support all types of evil causes. The Deform Movement is to blame.
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Real rabbis don't effect the Jews that fall for J4J. Orthodox rabbis have a religious following. It's the people who have Deform or Left-Wing Conservative rabbis who are to blame. The answer is to have rabbis period as opposed to fake ones. Deform Jews have an empty religion and they seek something else. Instead of becoming good Jews, they support all types of evil causes. The Deform Movement is to blame.
So then shouldn't the real rabbis do more to reach out to the non-Orthodox Jews?
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According to Tovia Snger, there are two types of Evangelical Christians. The first are the Replacement Theologians that believed Yeshu "fulfilled" the Torah. The second are the Chrsitian Zionists that actually believe that G-d gave the Land to the Jewish People and want to support Israel and be blessed as G-d promised to Abraham. Bush belongs to the former while Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee belong to the latter.
Tovia Singer has Christians that listen to his show and he has Christians speak on his show. He is an expert on counter missionary activity and real Christian Zionists respect him.
Unfortunately within the "Christian-Zionists" their are those who missionize as well. Its an epidemic. They are even going to some "Settler" communities, infiltrating them and spreading their ideology from within. This is going on today in places like Beit El with the "Right" not saying and protesting much.
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Unfortunately within the "Christian-Zionists" their are those who missionize as well. Its an epidemic. They are even going to some "Settler" communities, infiltrating them and spreading their ideology from within. This is going on today in places like Beit El with the "Right" not saying and protesting much.
So Tag, what do you suggest? What would you do if you were the benevolent ruler of Israel?
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So then shouldn't the real rabbis do more to reach out to the non-Orthodox Jews?
Yes, they are and people try. And its not only for the "Rabbis", ever single knowledgeable Jew is supposed to do what he/she can.
Also don't forget the Christian groups have a lot of $ and a lot more people. Its easier for them to get things together as they have more people and resources, Orthodox Jews not as much, but their is definitely an effort being done- shiurim, Shabbatonim, follow up classes and such and other things (on campus), but definitely a bigger effort can and should be done. No one is excused especially today with the internet where people from remote areas can be accessed and influenced.
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So Tag, what do you suggest? What would you do if you were the benevolent ruler of Israel?
Jewish State. No reliance on others, reliance only on G-D. THEY MUST GO!
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(Student of Rav Kahane ZTL HYD)
(Although I remember now (Afterwards) this isn't my fav. shiur by him, but still commentary on some missionary activity in Samaria, also check Esseragaroth blog).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw1yn4NnJhE
Also according to him (And I would like to possibly ask Chaim in the future if I dont forget) he says that the last shiur (or something) of Rav Kahane ZTL HYD was about breaking and wrecking the bond between the nations and Am Yisrael because through it, it would be Emuna in Hashem and no one else.
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I know Jews are not supposed too, but there should be Rabbis trying to convert Christians... Christians can believe their Messiah came, but they should follow the law of Torah...
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I know Jews are not supposed too, but there should be Rabbis trying to convert Christians... Christians can believe their Messiah came, but they should follow the law of Torah...
Can't have something 50/50, it would just be creating another religion which is bad. Either someone converts and follows Torah or they don't. We don't advocate some admixtures of sorts. We already have different religions such as islam that just made things up.
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I know Jews are not supposed too, but there should be Rabbis trying to convert Christians... Christians can believe their Messiah came, but they should follow the law of Torah...
They should become Bnei Noah. We don't need insincere converts. How can a convert have heretical beliefs? It would make people be afraid to accept real converts.
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I reiterate my suggestion for this thread to be moved.
Well there shouldn't be missionizing in Israel for one. You can blame the deform movement for the adults, but you see kids as young as nine years old that get called with their new friends to the side of their park and told "besus loves you" and "don't tell your parents, they won't understand".
It's important to be learned and separate for these reasons.
If I was the benevolent ruler of Israel, I'd debate them on T.V. After, I'd have a whole public lecture in heavy hit zones to say what exactly Judaism teaches about the assyrian religion, the roman religion, the Egpytian religions, and everything else that makes up their religion. It wasn't so easy to convert people when they saw the idolaters doing the exact same things as them, but today, ignorance is rife, and quite deadly.
The baptist church alone spends $450 million YEARLY to convert Jews. Each Jew has a price tag of about $200,000. While xtians should see that as a little funny, considering that they're converting people who aren't even idolaters, Judaism, and anything but their religion is seen as a cancer that we burn in hell forever for, since regardless of righteousness, you go to heaven if you believe something that just based on the story is 50%, and the facts bring it to -10,000%. Faith is better than a lifetime of not murdering, so it's important for them, see?
We could spend a million dollars a year to counter 100 times that spent by the missionizers, so I recommend charitable donations to Jews for Judaism.
Kahanism was always strongly anti-missionary, and should take the mantle of stopping a holocaust that has claimed more Jews since WW2 than the holocaust. Now we want support. It's gotten to the point where we consider allowing people to warn about the anti-crisp, who of course, in the NT, rebuilds the third temple.
This would be a great way for the ONE TRUE Kahanist movement to show itself and do something even the lefties would have trouble from every angle, were they to denounce, but of course, we need to have emunah in evangelicals, and not Hashem. I hate being sarcastic about this.
As for Ephraim, if you want to make people follow the Noahide laws and get them eternal life, you have my blessing, and it's a Mitzvah, so G-d will protect you while you do, but remember, G-d gives a hard time to those he loves, like the best father.
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Can't have something 50/50, it would just be creating another religion which is bad. Either someone converts and follows Torah or they don't. We don't advocate some admixtures of sorts. We already have different religions such as islam that just made things up.
The original Xtians were what he is suggesting. Then Paul went and changed things to get goyim to convert to his new religion when Jews rejected it.
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The original Xtians were what he is suggesting. Then Paul went and changed things to get goyim to convert to his new religion when Jews rejected it.
I strongly doubt that based on all evidence to the contrary.
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I strongly doubt that based on all evidence to the contrary.
There is actually a story that Paul was a rabbi that infiltrated Xianity to make it completely separate from Judaism to save Jews from converting to it.
Look up Toldot Yeshu.
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There is actually a story that Paul was a rabbi that infiltrated Xianity to make it completely separate from Judaism to save Jews from converting to it.
Look up Toldot Yeshu.
And said to dress up like Jews in order to convert them. Whoever said that story has no knowledge of xianity.
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The original Xtians were what he is suggesting. Then Paul went and changed things to get goyim to convert to his new religion when Jews rejected it.
Maybe, I think mohammed did the same similar thing. They all go after the Jews, but then get rejected, get other people and then come back to wreck vengeance upon the Jews for rejecting them.
Also perhaps (and this is a theory) Paul really came to sabotage that movement and totally separate them from the rest of Am Yisrael.
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Maybe, I think mohammed did the same similar thing. They all go after the Jews, but then get rejected, get other people and then come back to wreck vengeance upon the Jews for rejecting them.
Also perhaps (and this is a theory) Paul really came to sabotage that movement and totally separate them from the rest of Am Yisrael.
Again, the theory is insane.
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If Christians believe Yeshu was a man, and they don't pray to or worship him. They fall under the class of B'nai Noach. They can still think he is Messiah!
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If Christians believe Yeshu was a man, and they don't pray to or worship him. They fall under the class of B'nai Noach. They can still think he is Messiah!
You are correct. You can also teach your converts that your grandfather was the Messiah, and they wouldn't be idolaters, in my not-completely-valid opinion, just something else...
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If Christians believe Yeshu was a man, and they don't pray to or worship him. They fall under the class of B'nai Noach. They can still think he is Messiah!
It's still prohibited for Jews to believe he was the Mashiach.
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It's still prohibited for Jews to believe he was the Mashiach.
Completely.
On a side note, the money we get from xtains is worth less than this http://dailyoftheday.com/no-this-is-not-an-okay-tip-to-leave/
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It's still prohibited for Jews to believe he was the Mashiach.
Agreed 100%!
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Unfortunately this is another one of those divisive threads that is spiraling downward again. As for me, I think that all Bible-believing Christians reject witnessing that is based on deception and trickery. One of our great JTFers (White Israelite) has been on the receiving end of this; however, he admires and supports real Christians.
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It would really be divisive if Hayamin helped save Jews from losing their share in the world to come in Israel, and made Jews for Judaism look like amateurs. It might even cause divides between Israel and the USA. Certainly all the "bible" believing world that follow the doctrines of deceptive and non-deceptive missionizing efforts contained in it.
It would be especially so if they tried to give them a knowledge of Hashem and led them to a relationship with him through the laws of Noah, which they are supposed to. And it could probably get you banned if you made fun of their religion like Abraham our father did with other people like that.
Good thing we don't have to worry about all that. We are peaceful and friendly. Not so the xtians, but who are we to cause divides that already exist.
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I want to make it very clear! I'm totally against Jews accepting Jesus, but I do think it is possible for Christians to fall into the category of B'nai Noach, even Rabbi Singer(from Jews 4 Judaism) says that some Christians do(I will not name them) fall into the Noachide category.
And Tag and Binyamin, it was Peter, not Paul. I will not say what I think of Paul...