JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chaim Ben Pesach on January 12, 2014, 03:27:23 AM
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בס''ד
Two new videos on the same topic - one in English, one in Hebrew.
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In English:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4y6cq9E8eg
In Hebrew:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaP-3zOIrJI
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I watched the video and feel compelled to tell you :
1) For peace with Egypt - the country of 80 M people that was by far the greatest danger to Israel's existence - it was unavoidable to return the Sinai. Besides, the whole world without any exception would never let Israel keep it as "conquest". In addition, I would not say of the Sinai that "it represents 2/3 of the land of Israel". This is simply false.
2) In 1982, I was was in the outskirts of Beyrouth. You claim that Sharon forbade the soldiers to fire, it is simply false. In fat, Sharon wanted very much to take out arafat (may his name be blotted out) and destroy utterly the arab fighters. He was precluded from doing so by immense international pressure and ultimately Menahem Beguin himself ordered to not take out the abominable arafat. In the end, arafatand and his cohorts were allowed to escape to Tunisia, far enough from Israel to clip his wings for a good few years.
So once again, you information is simply false.
3) The unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. There is no doubt Sharon was wrong to agree to it. It was an express demand from George Bush who convinced Sharon that if Israel would do this, America would do garantee 2 things in return :
a) stand firm with Israel to NEVER leave any part of Judea and Samaria.
b) eliminate the rising Iranian nuclear threat, by force if need be.
Sharon went as far as to get this in writing from President Bush and additionally the US Congress ratified the US committment to Israel. Inn Sharon's eyes, this step would definitely ensure that israel would never have to face an existential threat. In addition, there was a small chance of the arabs changing their ways once they receive some territory.
At the time, I was opposed to this move for one reason only : I know intimately the psyche of muslims in general and arabs in aprticular. I knew that no amount of concession would ever bring peace.
Abandoning Gaza was truly a HUGE mistake :
a) It is part of ancestral Israel.
b) It was perceived as a military victory for islam - it contributed to unite the whole muslim world.
c) If israel withdraws once from such territory on which it could have a claim, then it can be made to withdraw again in the future from Judea and Samaria.
d) It caused huge personal suffering to Jews who lost their life work and where NOT properly taken care of therafter.
So I have to agree with you on this point. Sharon made a huge mistake and we pay for it today.
All this being said, there are times in life when one must have the decency to remain silent. If Rabbi Kahane were alive, he would never have said "Sharon is dead, Baruch Hashem". It is disgraceful you say this of any Jew, let alone one that was a hero of Israel.
Even if he had committed the mistakes you cite, it would not be a reason to rejoice in his death.
PLEASE correct your stance. If you do, you will stand taller for it. If you do not, I say to you :
Shame on you Chaim ben Pessach !
Shavua tov,
Lef
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I watched the video and feel compelled to tell you :
1) For peace with Egypt - the country of 80 M people that was by far the greatest danger to Israel's existence - it was unavoidable to return the Sinai. Besides, the whole world without any exception would never let Israel keep it as "conquest". In addition, I would not say of the Sinai that "it represents 2/3 of the land of Israel". This is simply false.
2) In 1982, I was was in the outskirts of Beyrouth. You claim that Sharon forbade the soldiers to fire, it is simply false. In fat, Sharon wanted very much to take out arafat (may his name be blotted out) and destroy utterly the arab fighters. He was precluded from doing so by immense international pressure and ultimately Menahem Beguin himself ordered to not take out the abominable arafat. In the end, arafatand and his cohorts were allowed to escape to Tunisia, far enough from Israel to clip his wings for a good few years.
So once again, you information is simply false.
3) The unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. There is no doubt Sharon was wrong to agree to it. It was an express demand from George Bush who convinced Sharon that if Israel would do this, America would do garantee 2 things in return :
a) stand firm with Israel to NEVER leave any part of Judea and Samaria.
b) eliminate the rising Iranian nuclear threat, by force if need be.
Sharon went as far as to get this in writing from President Bush and additionally the US Congress ratified the US committment to Israel. Inn Sharon's eyes, this step would definitely ensure that israel would never have to face an existential threat. In addition, there was a small chance of the arabs changing their ways once they receive some territory.
At the time, I was opposed to this move for one reason only : I know intimately the psyche of muslims in general and arabs in aprticular. I knew that no amount of concession would ever bring peace.
Abandoning Gaza was truly a HUGE mistake :
a) It is part of ancestral Israel.
b) It was perceived as a military victory for islam - it contributed to unite the whole muslim world.
c) If israel withdraws once from such territory on which it could have a claim, then it can be made to withdraw again in the future from Judea and Samaria.
d) It caused huge personal suffering to Jews who lost their life work and where NOT properly taken care of therafter.
So I have to agree with you on this point. Sharon made a huge mistake and we pay for it today.
All this being said, there are times in life when one must have the decency to remain silent. If Rabbi Kahane were alive, he would never have said "Sharon is dead, Baruch Hashem". It is disgraceful you say this of any Jew, let alone one that was a hero of Israel.
Even if he had committed the mistakes you cite, it would not be a reason to rejoice in his death.
PLEASE correct your stance. If you do, you will stand taller for it. If you do not, I say to you :
Shame on you Chaim ben Pessach !
Shavua tov,
Lef
Hi Steve!
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very well said
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Simeon Peres is next hopefully.
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What a great video! A fantastic education of the truth about Ariel Sharon.
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Lef you are engaging in some revisionist history on Gaza. Most of what I read was that Bush and his people were surprised when Sharon announced the Gaza expulsion. All Bush offered was a memo saying that Israel did not have to give up the settlement blocks. He never said Israel could keep all of Judea and Samaria. In terms of Iran Olmert was stopped from taking out the nukes.
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Hi Steve!
Steven Weigang?
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Well, Glad I got all the facts here at JTF, a lot of websites putting out different info on Sharon, I knew I would get it straight here!
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Great video
And lef, you are greatly mistaken re Sharon. It doesn't matter if Sharon reluctantly withdrew or not or if under pressure or not. IT STILL DOESNT MAKE IT RIGHT. When you are a leader to protect your brothers and sisters, you never give in to anything that will put then in danger. A religious Zionist who follows the Torah knows he would die, Gd forbid, for his fellow Jew and to sanctify Gd's name.
Sharon was a bad man who endangered the lives of fellow Jews. Reluctance or pressure or neither, doesn't make him a better person nor is an excuse. Jewish leaders should not imitate King Saul. They should imitate yonaton and King David.
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And lef aka Leon is a former poster on the forum. Yes he disagrees with certain things we believe, but he's no troll nor Steve weigang. How about debating for a change?
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I really don't feel like repeating all the debates I'm having for this here. A lot of pro-Israel groups are deleting this video when I publish it, and the response is generally icy.
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I'm a little irritated with Tamar Yonah for not coming out on this issue as strongly as you have Chaim. I don't understand why she can't outright state Sharon was an evil SOB.
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Why no mention of the "hunting season"
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What's good about Naftali Bennett is that he has a memory & a sense of history & is a master of quoting the Left and pseudo-Right against themselves. He knows all about the saison and Sharon's foibles, but he was clever enough to say "now is not the time to bring them up" ie there will be a time, for maximum impact.
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What's good about Naftali Bennett is that he has a memory & a sense of history & is a master of quoting the Left and pseudo-Right against themselves. He knows all about the saison and Sharon's foibles, but he was clever enough to say "now is not the time to bring them up" ie there will be a time, for maximum impact.
Bennett is like Sharon and anti religious from what I understand
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I'm a little irritated with Tamar Yonah for not coming out on this issue as strongly as you have Chaim. I don't understand why she can't outright state Sharon was an evil SOB.
I wrote that he was a traitor on her Facebook page and she said it's unacceptable to write that and deleted it. Maybe she did so because she knows that the Bolshevik Israeli Establishment doesn't allow free speech and could turn against her or Arutz 7 for allowing people to post that. In Israel, it's illegal to call someone a Nazi and it's illegal to say "racist" stuff against Arabs. The Left loves to call those things "incitement". Chaim said we can't condone illegal activities but we also don't have to condemn them. Apparently now, the Bolsheviks say we can't condone acts of G-d. People are not threatening Sharon. They are simply praising G-d.
Is defaming evil dead people incitement too now?
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Bennett is like Sharon and anti religious from what I understand
Don't think soo. Bennett is like Sharon in the sense of being a highly decorated soldier and from top unit. He isn't anti-religious.
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Once again, it seems like JTF is the only place where we are getting the truth about Sharon. It seems like the rest of the 'conservatives' are treating him like a hero and ignoring his acts of treason.
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Yes. We are the only people that dare to tell the truth about "heroes" like Mandela, Sharon, Martin Luther King Jr etc.