JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: muman613 on January 22, 2014, 04:02:24 PM
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Apparently the Pope is not going to Israel for his own health, or even to insure peace in the middle east... It seems the Vatican is expecting some of Israel's holy land to be given to the Vatican...
Rabbi Ariel of the Temple Institute wants to make sure that Israel gives non of the Jewish people's heritage to the gentile nations...
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/285554#.UuAw_3XTnq4
More Fears Mount Zion to Be Relinquished to Vatican
Rabbi Yisrael Ariel, founder of the Temple Institute added his fears that parts of Mount Zion in Jerusalem may be relinquished to the Vatican as the planned visit of Pope Francis in May approaches. He referenced the 2008 agreement of the Israel government to relinquish control of the historic Russian Compound buildings in Jerusalem to Russian control. The offices of the Agriculture Ministry and the Society for the Protection of Nature in Israel vacated the premises in 2011.
Rabbi Ariel was among the paratroopers who helped liberate the Temple Mount in the Six Day War of 1967. He said for years there has been tentative plans to assign ownership of the Western Wall to the Jews, the Temple Mount to the Muslims and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and Mount Zion to the Christians.
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They shouldn't give up one square inch!
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Just don't let him near any young jewish boys.
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I hope Israel does not ever relinquish anything at the suggestion of this Jesuit Priest, especially their God given rights to the land that was the covenant between God, Abraham, and his offspring.
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I truly hope not one cubit is given away... alas, I fear that this won't be the case. I wouldn't be surprised if there will be a push to make Jerusalem, or a part of Jerusalem to be an "international city" and will have a new "Temple" built that will be for "All religions" for all to worship the "Ecumenical god" at this abomination in the place where G-d's true Temple should be. This will be part of an attempt to unite the world with a syncretic religion that mixes and mashes everything...the whole "all religions lead the the one G-d" b.s.
...I hope I am wrong of course...
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I thought you thought I was being too harsh on Bergoglio.
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/176629
‘Govt. to Split Jerusalem – Where are the Rabbis?’
Rabbi Yisrael Ariel wonders at fellow rabbis’ silence over plan to give away Jerusalem holy sites.
The government is planning to cede several sites in ancient Jerusalem to Muslim and Christian ownership, and Israel’s rabbis remain silent, Rabbi Yisrael Ariel has accused.
“There is a terrible plan, called the ‘holy basin,’ to split Jerusalem between Christians, Muslims and Jews,” Rabbi Ariel said, speaking to Arutz Sheva.
Rabbi Ariel, who heads the Temple Institute, continued, “The Christians will get the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and Mount Zion, the Muslims will get the Temple Mount, and we Jews will need to visit the Kotel (Western Wall) under the auspices of the Palestinian Authority.”
The Palestinian Authority (PA) denies the Jewish connection to the Western Wall, and PA TV has labeled Jewish worship at the holy site “sin and filth.”
Even if Jewish worship at the Kotel were to continue freely, the loss of access to the Temple Mount would be highly significant. The Temple Mount is the holiest site on earth according to Judaism, and is the place where the First Temple and Second Temple once stood.
The plan to split Jerusalem’s holy sites between various religions “has existed for some time, and now they’re going to implement it in stages,” Rabbi Ariel warned, adding, “During the Pope’s next visit they plan to transfer the Cenacle on Mount Zion to him, turning it into a pilgrimage site.”
He criticized Israel’s rabbis, including the Chief Rabbis, for their silence. “Not long ago they gave the Russian Compound to Russia, now the Christians are restoring a church – unused until now – on the Mount of Olives, and thus they slowly sell Jerusalem, and nobody raises their voice in protest,” he charged.
“Where is the Chief Rabbinate? They’re going to take the heart of Jerusalem and make it a Christian center,” he continued.
“Remember Rabbi Nissim. When the Pope came to visit fifty years ago, he insisted that if the Pope wanted to meet him he could come to his office in Jerusalem, he would not go greet him,” Rabbi Ariel recalled.
He accused his fellow rabbis of focusing on “price tag” vandalism of Arab property rather than the future of Jerusalem. “Three hundred rabbis spoke out against ‘price tag.’ Is this what you’ve found to get involved with, is this what pains you?
“Instead of meeting with the Prime Minister to protest the sale of Jerusalem, you’re speaking out against a handful of youths who burned a rug,” he accused.
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I thought you thought I was being too harsh on Bergoglio.
I am not concerned with who the pope is... I am concerned with what the suicidal leaders of Israel are planning to do concerning giving Jewish heritage away to whomever wants a piece...
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Not one square inch.
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One Orthodox Bishop wanted to sell some buildings to the Jewish community in old town and now he is under 24/7 police protection. In fact the Jews own very little in downtown and the little they use is in form of rent-some 60 million dollar per year. Correct me if I am wrong
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I am not concerned with who the pope is... I am concerned with what the suicidal leaders of Israel are planning to do concerning giving Jewish heritage away to whomever wants a piece...
In my opinion Israel should just not entertain ideas of parceling out land to the Pope or any other of the many organizations that are after holy sites... It's been my understanding that RCC really doesn't play up holy land tourism and would much rather people visit Vatican City... I have a feeling it's other Christian churches that have their eye on some of the holy places over in Israel not so much the RCC... Israel has done a good job allowing access to places like this and there is really no need for a changes in ownership.
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One Orthodox Bishop wanted to sell some buildings to the Jewish community in old town and now he is under 24/7 police protection. In fact the Jews own very little in downtown and the little they use is in form of rent-some 60 million dollar per year. Correct me if I am wrong
I know an Orthodox Arab Priest in Israel is under 24 hr protection.He encouraged many Orthodox Christians to Join the Israeli Army.The Arab Muslims and communists hate him
http://youtu.be/Vm9-jGNS1vE
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Certainly not any good indication.
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no the pope hasn't said anything about acquiring land from Israel, this rabbi's fears are baseless.
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I wish some of you would stop trying to deceive us. The Vatican MOST CERTAINLY is in deals to obtain property from Israel. This is a FACT, to say otherwise is to simply lie to us...
The Vatican has, for a long time, been in negotiations to obtain some of the sites it considers holy in Eretz Yisrael (The land of Israel).
Here is a discussion of this @ http://www.theartnewspaper.com/articles/Israel-and-Vatican-close-to-signing-Holy-Land-accord/30073
After two decades of talks, Israeli and Vatican officials are closer than they have ever been to reaching agreement over a number of disputed Holy Land sites, including the room in which Christians believe the Last Supper took place.
Historically, relations between Israel and the Vatican were strained: the Vatican did not drop the charge that the Jewish people were responsible for killing Jesus until 1965, while the actions of Pope Pius XII during the Nazi era remain controversial. The Vatican, meanwhile, has had concerns about Israel overseeing Catholic sites. Official diplomatic relations were not established until 1994. Tensions over the status of a number of historic holy sites are ongoing, because of contested sovereignty issues or because of the competing claims of different religious groups.
After a meeting in June, Zion Evrony, Israel’s ambassador to the Holy See, told The Art Newspaper that a final agreement was now possible within months. “I know that some will be sceptical and say ‘we have heard this before’, but this time, I believe we are closer to the finish line and there is a good reason for optimism,” Evrony said.
The Israeli ambassador and Catholic officials in Israel would not give details, but a draft agreement outlines tax exemptions at non-commercial holy sites and gives more rights to the Vatican at key sites of Catholic interest in Jerusalem and Caesarea.
The most controversial site in the draft agreement is Jerusalem’s Cenacle compound, which is important to Christians, Jews and Muslims. According to Masha Halevi of Jerusalem’s Hebrew University, Christians venerate the space upstairs in the Cenacle, where the Last Supper is believed to have taken place, while Jews consider it a 13th-century holy site marking King David’s tomb. Muslims consider it the Prophet David’s burial site and it has been Waqf (Islamic Trust) property since 1551.
Maybe those who defended the pope and vatican really were ignorant of the facts... Either that of they intended to be deceitful.
See also:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-vatican-deal-on-land-use-said-imminent/
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I wish some of you would stop trying to deceive us. The Vatican MOST CERTAINLY is in deals to obtain property from Israel. This is a FACT, to say otherwise is to simply lie to us...
The Vatican has, for a long time, been in negotiations to obtain some of the sites it considers holy in Eretz Yisrael (The land of Israel).
Here is a discussion of this @ http://www.theartnewspaper.com/articles/Israel-and-Vatican-close-to-signing-Holy-Land-accord/30073
Maybe those who defended the pope and vatican really were ignorant of the facts... Either that of they intended to be deceitful.
See also:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-vatican-deal-on-land-use-said-imminent/
Have mercy :::D No deceit is needed... Sadly the bottom line is clear for anyone that wishes to see it... It's bringing in the Tourist dollar before all else that is the driving factor here... The Vatican may indeed wish to be in control of a few key sites it feels are important to Christianity however if the people and Government of Israel was true to a Torah idea they would just say no... The fact that they go along with policy like this speaks volumes.
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Have mercy :::D No deceit is needed... Sadly the bottom line is clear for anyone that wishes to see it... It's bringing in the Tourist dollar before all else that is the driving factor here... The Vatican may indeed wish to be in control of a few key sites it feels are important to Christianity however if the people and Government of Israel was true to a Torah idea they would just say no... The fact that they go along with policy like this speaks volumes.
This is my point, and I said it before.... 'What will JEWISH ISRAEL give to the Pope/Vatican during upcoming visit?'...
Israel must not give away a single inch of our heritage.. But to say that they do not desire it is a fallacy...
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This is my point, and I said it before.... 'What will JEWISH ISRAEL give to the Pope/Vatican during upcoming visit?'...
Israel must not give away a single inch of our heritage.. But to say that they do not desire it is a fallacy...
What if they do desire it?
You said it....Israel must not give away a single inch of their heritage.
Maybe you should be in Israel to vote.
It seems to me, the problem is not the Pope's visit. The problem is the leadership you have in Israel.
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What if they do desire it?
You said it....Israel must not give away a single inch of their heritage.
Maybe you should be in Israel to vote.
It seems to me, the problem is not the Pope's visit. The problem is the leadership you have in Israel.
Well bc3, if you followed the gist of this thread we are all saying that Israel should not give a single inch of our land to the Vatican. The Rabbi who I quoted, and Spiraling Leopard quoted, is saying that the Rabbis and the Jewish people must stand up against any force in Israel which wants to give away these holy sites...
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This article contains a very good discussion of what is involved here...
http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/vatican-radio-anticipates-israel-relinquishing-control-of-cenacle
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Well bc3, if you followed the gist of this thread we are all saying that Israel should not give a single inch of our land to the Vatican. The Rabbi who I quoted, and Spiraling Leopard quoted, is saying that the Rabbis and the Jewish people must stand up against any force in Israel which wants to give away these holy sites...
I can actually read. I was responding directly to you.
You made a point of saying members were either ignorant or being deceitful about the Pope.
You wrote...Maybe those who defended the Pope and Vatican really were ignorant of the facts... Either that or they intended to be deceitful. Defended?
Is the Pope/RCC the only group that may want a piece of Israel?
I think you should fix your anger where it matters. The leadership in Israel. Isn't that why Rabbi Meir Kahane founded the Kach Party?
Instead, you waste time trying to win points against Catholics.
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Muman is making it seem like the Vatican is trying to expand its borders into Israel. Haha what a joke. Taking control of a church and some other christian sites is quite different from expanding your borders. I really don't see what muman plans do with the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
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I plan on making it known that Israel must be kept a Jewish state. If this thread is a waste of time, as BC3 suggests, so too is this entire forum.
I do not give a toot who the pope is, I can give a rats poop what the vatican does with it's followers. But I do care what Israel and the Jewish people do with the Holy heritage which Hashem has granted us.
The vatican and the church have not been friends of the Jews, ever. Even today (40 years after Vatican II was announced) the church's reputation among the Jewish people is mud. From being accused of 'deicide' (as if such a thing was even possible) to being called 'Spawn of Satan', the blood libels and the crusades and inquisitions... The church's history is abysmal.
Israel should not give a single solitary inch of our land to a belief system which has persecuted us up till this century.
My message, as was the original posting, is intended for Jews to think about, and grow a spine. Stand up against these interlopers, these invaders who stole all of the Jewish peoples property when Rome ransacked Jerusalem. It is believed that the Vatican contains a vast treasure of artifacts from the Second Temple. It would be a great 'gesture' if this church returned the stolen artifacts... Until then I think there is very little for the Jewish people to talk about with the church.
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I plan on making it known that Israel must be kept a Jewish state. If this thread is a waste of time, as BC3 suggests, so too is this entire forum.
I do not give a toot who the pope is, I can give a rats poop what the vatican does with it's followers. But I do care what Israel and the Jewish people do with the Holy heritage which Hashem has granted us.
The vatican and the church have not been friends of the Jews, ever. Even today (40 years after Vatican II was announced) the church's reputation among the Jewish people is mud. From being accused of 'deicide' (as if such a thing was even possible) to being called 'Spawn of Satan', the blood libels and the crusades and inquisitions... The church's history is abysmal.
Israel should not give a single solitary inch of our land to a belief system which has persecuted us up till this century.
My message, as was the original posting, is intended for Jews to think about, and grow a spine. Stand up against these interlopers, these invaders who stole all of the Jewish peoples property when Rome ransacked Jerusalem. It is believed that the Vatican contains a vast treasure of artifacts from the Second Temple. It would be a great 'gesture' if this church returned the stolen artifacts... Until then I think there is very little for the Jewish people to talk about with the church.
I did not suggest that this thread was a waste of time. Stop being rediculous.
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bc3,
I will attempt to maintain a civil discussion with you. But once again it seems to me you have singled out what you want to hear (an attack on Catholicism) rather than listening to what I was trying to say. It is not an attack on Catholicism at all but I intended to alert Jews to the plan (which many Jewish leaders have not even started to discuss) concerning the giving of these 'holy' sites to non-Jewish nations.
I really don't understand why you chime in on every thread I post where I mention the RCC. For a number of weeks there have been many threads posted by others which make much stronger and offensive statements against the Pope, but you did not object... But if I mention the church, I am somehow a 'hater'.
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bc3,
I will attempt to maintain a civil discussion with you. But once again it seems to me you have singled out what you want to hear (an attack on Catholicism) rather than listening to what I was trying to say. It is not an attack on Catholicism at all but I intended to alert Jews to the plan (which many Jewish leaders have not even started to discuss) concerning the giving of these 'holy' sites to non-Jewish nations.
I really don't understand why you chime in on every thread I post where I mention the RCC. For a number of weeks there have been many threads posted by others which make much stronger and offensive statements against the Pope, but you did not object... But if I mention the church, I am somehow a 'hater'.
Why did you call people here either ignorant or deceitful? You did that.
Israel is a 'holy' ::) place to Christians. Not just Catholics. That is a fact of life.
Do I think ownership of these sites should be given away to any group. No.
But can I understand their interest? I guess so.
It is the leadership in Israels job to protect it's interests.
I have been a Catholic all my life.
Not once has my church parish ( and I have lived in two) encouraged a pilgrimage to Israel.
You make it sound like there is a secret conspiracy amongst all Catholics to 'steal away' land in Israel. So, members here have a reason to be deceitful. That is ignorant.
M613, I don't care about the Pope threads.
Look at most of the titles. They make us look rediculous.
I, also, don't care about legitimate civil discussions of the Catholic church.
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Why did you call people here either ignorant or deceitful? You did that.
Israel is a 'holy' ::) place to Christians. Not just Catholics. That is a fact of life.
Do I think ownership of these sites should be given away to any group. No.
But can I understand their interest? I guess so.
It is the leadership in Israels job to protect it's interests.
I have been a Catholic all my life.
Not once has my church parish ( and I have lived in two) encouraged a pilgrimage to Israel.
You make it sound like there is a secret conspiracy amongst all Catholics to 'steal away' land in Israel. So, members here have a reason to be deceitful. That is ignorant.
M613, I don't care about the Pope threads.
Look at most of the titles. They make us look rediculous.
I, also, don't care about legitimate civil discussions of the Catholic church.
I have nothing but support for the catholics here on this forum.... I hope more Catholics join.
But I have always dissliked the catholic leadership.... and I NEVER trusted or like this new pope. He seems like the most dishonest politician (like there are any other kinds).
At one point he said.... Catholics need to stop 'fixating' over abortion. WHAT????? What kind of 'religious' man would say this?? Let's stop fixating on the mass murdering of the most innocent of humans. He is dirt.
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bc3,
Examine the thread, there was a member (who I will not name) who attempted to say that there is no desire nor a plan for the transfer of Jewish land to the vatican. To be for it, or against it is one thing, to pretend (or attempt to deceive us) that it is not a reality is what I was referring to.
And I have nothing against Catholics (or Christians of any denomination) visiting the land of Israel. I know several Catholics at my work who have related to me their experiences visiting Israel, and I support them. I am absolutely AGAINST giving the deed to the property to any nation, including the RCC...
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I have nothing but support for the catholics here on this forum.... I hope more Catholics join.
But I have always dissliked the catholic leadership.... and I NEVER trusted or like this new pope. He seems like the most dishonest politician (like there are any other kinds).
At one point he said.... Catholics need to stop 'fixating' over abortion. WHAT????? What kind of 'religious' man would say this?? Let's stop fixating on the mass murdering of the most innocent of humans. He is dirt.
Briann, I can fully appreciate your feelings in regards to this Pope.
Making a 'play on words' out of his name (constantly) isn't funny to me though.
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This thread is being handled very well! :)
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no the pope hasn't said anything about acquiring land from Israel, this rabbi's fears are baseless.
Did you convert from muslim to Catholic?
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Majority of the holy Christian places are held by the Orthodox Churches...visiting the holy land is a must in Orthodoxy if you have resources and good health...the Jews had shown to the world how democratic nation they are by looking after these holy places and not stealing but paying the rent to those who invested in buildings and lands on the Jewish teritory in the past.