What kind of strings?
They really seek to convert us to believe their 'messiah'.Okay, thanks. Why would they give all that money? Do they get a place or platform in Israel to talk to Jew's about Jesus. I guess I just don't understand.
Chaim has said Eckstein's ICFJ is a counterproductive and money-grubbing organization, but do you all really believe that no Christians are allies of Jewry? Tell me, who were the people who helped Chaim when he was in prison? Typical American Jews? The big Jewish establishment orgs? What's the Jewish mainstream doing to help the pioneers on the hilltops today or Jewish prisoners in Israel or Jonathan Pollard or Jews who live in negro-besieged neighborhoods?
Rabbi Eckstein may be a charlatan, sure, but the people who donate to his movement care more about Israel than 95% of American Jewry and Chaim himself would agree with that.
I personally have not seen this... All Jews I know, from reform to Orthodox, all support Israel. Of course the 'support' varies from the 'two-state' vision to the Jewish homeland vision... Even here in liberal California most Jews (over 80% of them) support Israel very strongly.
If Jews don't support Israel they may as well assimilate and become Christians. And I have to really ask why Christians would support Jews at this stage in the game. The only reason, according to my opinion, is that they truly seek to convert us.
I have met many Jews who are against Israel and some of the biggest adversaries I have had in debates have been Jews who claim that the "Israelis" stole the land of Palestine.. However, I will say on average, most Jews support there being an Israel.. One of the heads of the Olympia Food Co-op who runs the Anti-Israel initiative , banning all products made by Israeli Jews, is a Jew, herself. Also, some of the worst, Anti-Israel/Islamic supporting politicians are Jews. Did not Hillary Clinton's daughter marry a Jewish guy?
My uncle , who is now dead, was a gun-toting ultra-left wing communist who thought Israel should be wiped out.. He ended up being murdered by his wife.. As much as I prayed he changed his ways, Hashem administered justice to him.
I personally have not seen this... All Jews I know, from reform to Orthodox, all support Israel. Of course the 'support' varies from the 'two-state' vision to the Jewish homeland vision... Even here in liberal California most Jews (over 80% of them) support Israel very strongly.
If Jews don't support Israel they may as well assimilate and become Christians. And I have to really ask why Christians would support Jews at this stage in the game. The only reason, according to my opinion, is that they truly seek to convert us.
I feel sorry for you that you have so many bad Jews around you. But I swear my experience is completely the opposite.
If we cannot rely on Jews we have nobody else to turn to...
בס''ד
A "two state final solution" is supporting Israel?! The 78% of American Jews who voted for the Muslim Jew-hater Barack Hussein Obama support Israel?!
That's like saying that the 90% of American Jews who voted for the Nazi Franklin Delano Roosevelt during the holocaust were supporting the millions of European Jews who were being murdered by Roosevelt's monstrous policies.
The vast majority of American Jews are self-hating enemies of Israel. Israel's worst enemies are the Jews in the news media, in politics, in the business world, in the universities, in the labor unions and in the Jewish establishment organizations.
Jews are, and always have been, their own worst enemies.
The prophets of the Bible warned us that our destroyers would come from within.
An "evangelist" is by definition someone who evangelizes or preaches to people with the intention of converting them, so there is no such thing as an "evangelist" with no strings attached. True Christians always have wanted and still do want to see Jews evangelized. It is only modern sectarian Christians and secularized Christians who do not. Just like only modern sectarian and secularized Muslims do not support terrorism. I don't think most religious Zionist rabbis agree with Rabbi Melamed on his stance on evangelicals having no strings attached. He has been opposed by Rabbi Dov Lior (Rabbi of Kiryat Arba/Hebron) and other rabbis. There are many links of religious Zionist rabbis' rulings that I can post on the subject, but they are all in Hebrew. Perhaps I will take some time to translate some of them and open one or more topics in the Torah section.Wouldn't most JTFers *prefer* that Christians become Noahides? I know that, I accept it, I don't care so long as basic respect is there. I don't think that any of these so-called evil evangelicals have ever denied that they want everyone on earth to be Christians. The question is are they actually engaging in missionizing or are people just looking for reasons to bash them. I can live with a difference of opinion in religion so long as it's polite and cordial. I don't care what someone wants me to become so long as they are being honest about it and not constantly shoving it down my throat. I don't support deceptive proselytizing by anyone, for any religion.
בס''ד
A "two state final solution" is supporting Israel?! The 78% of American Jews who voted for the Muslim Jew-hater Barack Hussein Obama support Israel?!
That's like saying that the 90% of American Jews who voted for the Nazi Franklin Delano Roosevelt during the holocaust were supporting the millions of European Jews who were being murdered by Roosevelt's monstrous policies.
The vast majority of American Jews are self-hating enemies of Israel. Israel's worst enemies are the Jews in the news media, in Hollywood, in politics, in the business world, in the universities, in the labor unions and in the Jewish establishment organizations.
Jews are, and always have been, their own worst enemies.
The prophets of the Bible warned us that our destroyers would come from within.
Some of you may not be aware of an important historical fact.Shouldn't the anger be directed at the false prophets who predicted the coming of the coming of the Messiah in 1840?
The founders of what is called the old yishuv - Pre-Zionist settlements in the land of Israel, that is to say the immigrants that came in the early 1800's (of the secular calendar) were actually religious Zionists.
What changed much of their group eventually to be non-zionists or even anti-zionists charedis?
Two reasons.
From time to time certain Protestant Christian Groups (who believed Jewish settlement of Israel served the ideological interests of their own religion or who were strong missionaries) used their influence to annul threats to the Jewish community in Israel who were threatened by the Muslims and even the Druze population.
Some of the leadership of the Jews although aware of the spiritual dangers of being allies with these Christian Groups nevertheless encouraged at least a partial alliance (between the head of the Jewish group and the Christian groups) because they thought that was the best way to protect the community and move the redemption forward. They thought they could have a more friendly and cooperative relationship without causing much damage.
This coupled with messianic calculations by many that the secular year 1840 (Jewish year 5600) would bring a major breakthrough in the redemption and perhaps the messiah, followed by a major disappointment when it did not happen led some of the mid-level leadership to come to the conclusion that maybe the Christian messiah was the messiah after all and some of them ended up converting to Christianity.
These failures of the movement and the shame that some of the mid-level leadership even converted to Christianity caused such a backlash against the previous pro-zionist ideology of the settlers that it ended up transforming much of the community into the type of Charedi community we see today in Israel.
The source of this information is from historian Aryeh Morgenstern's book in Hebrew, Geula Bderech Hateva.
Chaim,It's "ridiculous", eh? Tell me what these proud, loyal American Jews are doing for Israel. Tell me one thing. (Donating to extreme-leftist Jewish establishment organizations that denounce the hilltop pioneers and the "settlements" in general and whine and cry about the "human rights" of the Arabs doesn't count.)
While I respect your opinion and am proud of your accomplishments I will have to strongly disagree with your approach.
To claim all Jews who support a 'two state solution' are 'self-haters' and we should curse them is utterly and completely RIDICULOUS. If you do that you will cause more divisions within the Jewish people. Judaism is not about forcing your approach on others, rather about convincing the Jewish people that our way is correct.
I feel more in common with Jews who support a 2 state solution than with non-Jews. I know Jews who support such a plan who regularly make Aliyah to Eretz Yisroel every year. They are hardly self-haters (as we refer to them here).You support cowards and appeaseniks more than Gentiles that are actually fighting for the Jewish people? And you're accusing others of "needless hatred"? It's time to look in the mirror, buddy. Israel does not need more leftists making aliyah, either, and I guarantee you that the moment Kahanism takes power, most of these will flee back to the Galut.
The Jewish people will only succeed when we have Unity between the majority of the remaining Jewish population. To constantly belittle and curse Jews who foolishly support a 'peace plan' which we know is suicidal will not result in anything but pushing Jews who could have been persuaded away from our message.You and I both know that Jews are the most educated and economically successful per capita of all the major US religious groups. How can Jews be so skilled and talented in worldly things and somehow uninformed and naive on spiritual things? What's more logical--to pretend that they are all ignorant or to accept that they have chosen what they want due to free will? The great majority of your left-wing, pro-"peace" friends are assimilating rapidly (if they haven't already) and will cease to exist completely within a generation or two. Are these people the hope for the future of Judaism?
I truly do not think that the savior of the Jewish people will come from Christianity. I have learned that the best approach is to bring more Jews back to traditional and Torah principles. I do not subscribe to what I see a lot of people here doing which is knocking the entire Jewish nation for our problems.The Christians that you so detest are not telling Jews to intermarry and assimilate and practice leftism and give up on Zionism, believe it or not, but I think you already know that. It's too bad I can't say the same of Jewish establishment leaders or the American Jewish Main Street.
Indeed the Jewish people have always had issues. And this will only change if we work according to how the Torah says we should work, by spreading the light of Torah and mitzvot and instilling the pride of being Jewish.I'm not Jewish but I know for a fact that the Torah says that these traitors and beasts are Erev Rav, without any hope either in this life or for mercy on Judgment Day. Their only hope is if they choose to repent; they certainly will not do so just because we ask them to.
I hope you can understand that I can disagree with you and yet still feel that you are a great force for good within the Jewish nation. But I wish you could think about how the approach of cursing and belittling Jews may be hurting the cause.Muman, American Jews wanted Chaim to receive the maximum sentence for his acts of civil disobedience to free Soviet Jews, supported the imprisonment of Jonathan Pollard on kangaroo charges, serve as mouthpieces for Pisslam every single day, and care more about the right to butcher babies than the right of Jewish babies to survive in the Holy Land without being blown to pieces. If the vast majority of evangelicals were like that, and a substantial portion of Jews (or Hindus, or Mormons, or even Muslims for that matter) were my genuine allies on these issues, I can promise you that I'd support them and have their back rather than the phony evil self-hating Christians.
Shouldn't the anger be directed at the false prophets who predicted the coming of the coming of the Messiah in 1840?That was also a mistake.
To sum it up very briefly, the major disasters that came upon Avraham (Abraham) and his descendants stemmed from his alliances with the Gentiles.אליהו רבה (איש שלום) פרשה ח
ישמר אדם דברים בלבו שלא יעשה שותפות עם הגוי, ולא יכרת עמו ברית, שכן מצאנו באברהם אבינו שעשה שותפות, וסוף דברים שעשו עמו ברית, שנאמר ויקח אברהם צאן ובקר וגו' (בראשית כ"א כ"ז). אברהם כרת ברית עם אבימלך, נתקבצו (לפניו) מלאכי שרת אמרו לפניו, רבון כל העולמים, אדם יחיד שבחרתה (כך) [לך] משבעים לשונות כרת ברית עם אומות העולם, אמר להן, בן יחיד נתתי לו למאה שנה ואמרתי לו, יקרא לך זרע (שם שם /בראשית כ"א/ י"ב), אומר לו להעלהו לעולה, אם יעלהו הריני אדע, ואם לאו יפה אתם אומרים, שנאמר ויהי אחר הדברים האלה והאלהים נסה את אברהם וגו' (שם /בראשית/ כ"ב א'), מאחר שכרת ברית עם אבימלך והאלהים נסה, ויאמר קח נא את בנך וגו' (שם /בראשית כ"ב/ ב'), וישלח אברהם את ידו וגו' (שם /בראשית כ"ב/ י'), אף על פי כן לא היתה שעינו את ישראל ולחצו אותם יותר משלש מאות שנה, בשכר שכרת ברית עם אומות העולם אלא לשתים בלבד, מיכן אמרו כל העושה שותפות עם הגוי כאילו עובד עבודה זרה וכורת עמו ברית, ואם תלמיד חכם [הוא], מזלזל את תורתו ומחלל שמו של אביו [שבשמים], ומבזבז את ממונו ומוסר את בניו [ומפיל אותם] בחרב, ומגלה אותם מארצם ומוכרן לעבודה זרה. סליק פירקא
This is for Chaim Ben Pesach and other Hebrew speakers concerning the spiritual problems of making alliancesTo sum it up very briefly, the major disasters that came upon Avraham (Abraham) and his descendants stemmed from his alliances with the Gentiles.I understand your point definitely but I don't see it as an "alliance" because these evangelicals aren't asking Israel to sign a contract or do anything in exchange, etc. The vast majority of them will never even set foot in the land of Israel for a single day. As I understand it, in Biblical times Israel was begging and pleading for Egypt, etc. to protect them. The better analogy today would be how Israel is enslaved to BHO and American "aid".
That was also a mistake.Well, we know what the Tanach says about false prophets whose claims do not come to pass, so I would say that these snakes, or wolves (whichever metaphor you prefer) were the real bad guys. People like this are the lowest of the low. I don't see a difference between them and deceptive missionaries that pretend to be Orthodox Jews, do you? If some charlatan megachurch "pastor" built his congregation up with a bunch of lies and false promises and they wound up being so upset and disillusioned with him that they became disgusted with all of Christianity and decided to all convert to Judaism or Noahidism, would it be the Jews' fault?