JTF.ORG Forum
Israel => Save Israel => Topic started by: mord on August 17, 2007, 07:13:43 AM
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3438698,00.html
Sexual Exploitation
Archive photo Photo: Tzika Tishler
PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi turns Israeli teen into sex slave
18-year-old girl moves in with man she meets on the internet, is later forced by him to grant sexual favors to PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi Authority officials in lavish Ramallah villa
Yael Branovsky Published: 08.17.07, 08:50 / Israel News
A PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi from Ramallah turned an 18-year-old Israeli girl he met on the internet into his sex slave, Ynet reported on Friday.
A few months ago Tal (not her real name) met who she thought was her prince charming in an internet chat room. Following a brief period of online correspondence, the two met in person. The PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi took Tal out to restaurants and showered her with gifts, and the unsuspecting Israeli teen thought she had found the man of her dreams.
'Muslim girls are afraid to return to Israel'
Within a month of their first encounter she was already in love with him, and did not hesitate for a second when he asked her to move into his home in Ramallah. But shortly after the two began living together the man approached Tal and asked that she “comfort” a friend of his. She agreed to sleep with the friend as a one-time gesture for her beloved boyfriend, but was forced to have sex with others as time went by.
Tal was then brought to a lavish villa, where she and several Muslim women granted sexual services to senior PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi Authority officials on a regular basis. Eventually Tal managed to escape and return to Israel.
A volunteer in an organization that offers help to Israeli teenagers who have experienced similar traumas told Ynet that Arab girls from Jaffa have also been lured to the territories under false pretenses.
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“The Muslim girls are afraid to return to Israel because they lose their virginity there. When they meet the person in a chat room they are certain that it will lead to marriage. Their families in Israel don’t want them back because they have ‘brought shame’ upon them,” she said.
The volunteer said the victims are usually lonely people from a low socio-economic background.
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If she's Jewish, it's a dissaster!
If she's arab, I don't care.
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These women are really dumb ,they read about this all the time and yet they continue to be hoodwinked by moslems.It's like if you jump on a race track in the middle of a race your going to get hit by a car
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It's very simple. In arab culture, women are no more than sex toys, to be played with and then tossed aside when they get worn..this is why musli men have 4 wives, very unlike the Jewish concept of polygamy. In Judaism, before rabbeinu Gershom's decree, men were alowed to have multiple wives, this was because righteous men would often take care of orphans, widows, etc..fulfilling the Mitzvah.However, after generations passed, the men wre not doing it "L'shmo(for the same of the mitzvah) anymore, this was the main reason the great Rasbbeinu Gershom decreed, among other thinbgs, that men cannot have moe than one wife. It should be noted that as far as I know, no Sephardic authority has said this, rabbeinu Gershom was Ashkenazic. Back on topic, muslims characteristically took our commandments and righteousness and abused it for their own perverted pleasure and whim. Just like how they take the Jewish idea of Tznius(modesty) to mean that women cant show their ankles - but killing them for being raped is fine!
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It's very simple. In arab culture, women are no more than sex toys, to be played with and then tossed aside when they get worn..this is why musli men have 4 wives, very unlike the Jewish concept of polygamy. In Judaism, before rabbeinu Gershom's decree, men were alowed to have multiple wives, this was because righteous men would often take care of orphans, widows, etc..fulfilling the Mitzvah.However, after generations passed, the men wre not doing it "L'shmo(for the same of the mitzvah) anymore, this was the main reason the great Rasbbeinu Gershom decreed, among other thinbgs, that men cannot have moe than one wife. It should be noted that as far as I know, no Sephardic authority has said this, rabbeinu Gershom was Ashkenazic. Back on topic, muslims characteristically took our commandments and righteousness and abused it for their own perverted pleasure and whim. Just like how they take the Jewish idea of Tznius(modesty) to mean that women cant show their ankles - but killing them for being raped is fine!
TRUE i had a a Jewish Yemenite friend whose grandfather had 2 wifes in Israel
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It's very simple. In arab culture, women are no more than sex toys, to be played with and then tossed aside when they get worn..this is why musli men have 4 wives, very unlike the Jewish concept of polygamy. In Judaism, before rabbeinu Gershom's decree, men were alowed to have multiple wives, this was because righteous men would often take care of orphans, widows, etc..fulfilling the Mitzvah.However, after generations passed, the men wre not doing it "L'shmo(for the same of the mitzvah) anymore, this was the main reason the great Rasbbeinu Gershom decreed, among other thinbgs, that men cannot have moe than one wife. It should be noted that as far as I know, no Sephardic authority has said this, rabbeinu Gershom was Ashkenazic. Back on topic, muslims characteristically took our commandments and righteousness and abused it for their own perverted pleasure and whim. Just like how they take the Jewish idea of Tznius(modesty) to mean that women cant show their ankles - but killing them for being raped is fine!
TRUE i had a a Jewish Yemenite friend whose grandfather had 2 wifes in Israel
This reflects the stance of the yemenite community, but I don't know if the other sephardim have said anything on the issue, I am curious to find out though.
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What sickness pervades Israeli society that an Israeli girl would even think of dating a PLO nazi man? The leftists in Israel have just destroyed the pride of the Jewish people... Anyone who was proud to be Jewish(or Christian, Hindu, etc for that matter) would never date a muslim man because they would have more self-respect.
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What sickness pervades Israeli society that an Israeli girl would even think of dating a PLO nazi man? The leftists in Israel have just destroyed the pride of the Jewish people... Anyone who was proud to be Jewish(or Christian, Hindu, etc for that matter) would never date a muslim man because they would have more self-respect.
Excellent point, Thunderbolt.
The danger from the left is the destruction of Jewish religion, pride, culture and resolve. Leftist Israelis have brought more destruction to the Jewish people than every arab ever born.
Israel will never destroy it's external enemies until it destroys these internal ones.
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From the story it seems she was an arab Israeli girl.
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From the story it seems she was an arab Israeli girl.
Oh, no worries then.
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It's very simple. In arab culture, women are no more than sex toys, to be played with and then tossed aside when they get worn..this is why musli men have 4 wives, very unlike the Jewish concept of polygamy. In Judaism, before rabbeinu Gershom's decree, men were alowed to have multiple wives, this was because righteous men would often take care of orphans, widows, etc..fulfilling the Mitzvah.However, after generations passed, the men wre not doing it "L'shmo(for the same of the mitzvah) anymore, this was the main reason the great Rasbbeinu Gershom decreed, among other thinbgs, that men cannot have moe than one wife. It should be noted that as far as I know, no Sephardic authority has said this, rabbeinu Gershom was Ashkenazic. Back on topic, muslims characteristically took our commandments and righteousness and abused it for their own perverted pleasure and whim. Just like how they take the Jewish idea of Tznius(modesty) to mean that women cant show their ankles - but killing them for being raped is fine!
TRUE i had a a Jewish Yemenite friend whose grandfather had 2 wifes in Israel
This reflects the stance of the yemenite community, but I don't know if the other sephardim have said anything on the issue, I am curious to find out though.
Other Sefardim as far as I know say that technically its allowed, but dont do it because of "the law of the land is the law" - since Sefardim now live in places like Israel and U.S.A. which prohibits it, so we dont marry more then 1 wife. Also during the marriage the Sefardi husband makes an oath to his wife that he wont take another wife for himself.
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as far as yeminites- I dont think they still have more than 1 wife, but when they came to Israel the ones who were allready married were allowed to remain soo, but later generations stoped.
An interesting question could be raised expecially in Israel if "the law of the land (government) applies or not. Also if any of the laws of the state should by followed by Jews or not.(since it is a heritical run state).
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That's correct he came with 2
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In my opinion, polygamy is not practical today because I doubt any woman would want to share her husband. I deff hear your opinion tzvi ben roshel and its valid as it was done by jews for so many years but I doubt it would work today.
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If she is an arab, then only the worst should be done to her.
Another insane and typically evil opinion from DownWithLogic.
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If she is an arab, then only the worst should be done to her.
Another insane and typically evil opinion from DownWithLogic.
Another wacko post from Parthnergoat .
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Have I said something wrong? I will repeat that I only wish the worst on Muslims. They are jew haters who should be destroyed. If anyone thought I meant Arab christians, let me clarify that I only meant arab muslims.
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It is a sad thing whether the girl is Israeli Jewish, or Arab....a man making a woman (of ANY religion) a sex slave to others unconsentually is disgusting and wrong.
What's more horrifying is those on this forum who cannot care for an abused woman if they think she might have been an Arab.
Where is the "Light Unto the Nations" concept here eh? We Jews are supposed to be different than the nations...holy and set apart for HaShem. G-d happens to care for even Arabs...who are his creations as much as we are.
There is a level of coldness that should not be allowed in our hearts which I've seen in some on this forum. I think it needs to change.
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It is a sad thing whether the girl is Israeli Jewish, or Arab....a man making a woman (of ANY religion) a sex slave to others unconsentually is disgusting and wrong.
What's more horrifying is those on this forum who cannot care for an abused woman if they think she might have been an Arab.
Where is the "Light Unto the Nations" concept here eh? We Jews are supposed to be different than the nations...holy and set apart for HaShem. G-d happens to care for even Arabs...who are his creations as much as we are.
There is a level of coldness that should not be allowed in our hearts which I've seen in some on this forum. I think it needs to change.
dawntreader, I'd like to aplaud you for this post, you have expressed the sentiments I wanted to express, but did not have the nerve to write.
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It is a sad thing whether the girl is Israeli Jewish, or Arab....a man making a woman (of ANY religion) a sex slave to others unconsentually is disgusting and wrong.
What's more horrifying is those on this forum who cannot care for an abused woman if they think she might have been an Arab.
Where is the "Light Unto the Nations" concept here eh? We Jews are supposed to be different than the nations...holy and set apart for HaShem. G-d happens to care for even Arabs...who are his creations as much as we are.
There is a level of coldness that should not be allowed in our hearts which I've seen in some on this forum. I think it needs to change.
The 'Light unto the Nations Concept' has NOTHING to do with caring for their enemies. Israel is required to hate it's enemies. "He who is kind to the cruel will soon be cruel to the kind."
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:'(This poor, poor girl was nuts, but we can in large part blame the Israeli government (ys"vz) for constantly brainwashing these kids into thinking Arabs are soft, cuddly, and harmless. I hope Olmert dies of Fournier's Gangrene!
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What difference does it make what any non muslim thinks of a muslim woman, muslim women have been marching for their "RIGHT" to be governed by disgusting sharia even here in the west, marching for their "RIGHT" to be oppressed into wearing black sacks....they WANT to be treated like dirt obviously.
Not to mention that their new "equal rights" amounts to them being terrorists, suicide bombers, even willing to blow their own children up on planes to kill a few infidels. I have no sympathy for them, they are my enemies plain and simple.
If muslim men could figure out how to reproduce without muslim women they would cease to exist, they arent needed for anything more than use as a baby making factory(ok and maybe to hide behind)....muslim men have little boys, other men and farm animals for the rest of their "needs".
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Right on, Kellymaureen! ;D
I'll save my sympathy and compassion for non-muslims.
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Have I said something wrong? I will repeat that I only wish the worst on Muslims. They are jew haters who should be destroyed. If anyone thought I meant Arab christians, let me clarify that I only meant arab muslims.
You may have not meant Arab "Christians", but I do. 99% of them are goatrapist Muslims in everything but name who do everything in their power to murder Jews. The only thing they don't do is suicide bombings.
I hate them almost more than the outright Muslims because they hide behind their faith and play for the pity of Western Christians.
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Have I said something wrong? I will repeat that I only wish the worst on Muslims. They are jew haters who should be destroyed. If anyone thought I meant Arab christians, let me clarify that I only meant arab muslims.
You may have not meant Arab "Christians", but I do. 99% of them are goatrapist Muslims in everything but name who do everything in their power to murder Jews. The only thing they don't do is suicide bombings.
I hate them almost more than the outright Muslims because they hide behind their faith and play for the pity of Western Christians.
Chaimfan, why do you always start this stuff on the Sabbath when the big boys are away?
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Downwithislam,
Be careful how you phrase things. It actually sounds like you want this girl to get raped.
Now personally, I have no sympathy for this girl. But advocating rape is what got Chaimfan temporarily banned. It's just gross, and doesn't help our cause.
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Have I said something wrong? I will repeat that I only wish the worst on Muslims. They are jew haters who should be destroyed. If anyone thought I meant Arab christians, let me clarify that I only meant arab muslims.
You may have not meant Arab "Christians", but I do. 99% of them are goatrapist Muslims in everything but name who do everything in their power to murder Jews. The only thing they don't do is suicide bombings.
I hate them almost more than the outright Muslims because they hide behind their faith and play for the pity of Western Christians.
Chaimfan, why do you always start this stuff on the Sabbath when the big boys are away?
What are you talking about if I may ask ?
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Have I said something wrong? I will repeat that I only wish the worst on Muslims. They are jew haters who should be destroyed. If anyone thought I meant Arab christians, let me clarify that I only meant arab muslims.
You may have not meant Arab "Christians", but I do. 99% of them are goatrapist Muslims in everything but name who do everything in their power to murder Jews. The only thing they don't do is suicide bombings.
I hate them almost more than the outright Muslims because they hide behind their faith and play for the pity of Western Christians.
Chaimfan, why do you always start this stuff on the Sabbath when the big boys are away?
What are you talking about if I may ask ?
Chaimfan comes out of the woodwork to instigate every Firday evening.
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Downwithislam,
Be careful how you phrase things. It actually sounds like you want this girl to get raped.
Now personally, I have no sympathy for this girl. But advocating rape is what got Chaimfan temporarily banned. It's just gross, and doesn't help our cause.
I didn't mean to start anything. I didn't like the way Thundertroll talked to DownwithIslam. If you saw my post I was very sympathetic to the poor girl.
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Chaimfan comes out of the woodwork to instigate every Firday evening.
Oh yeah, just forget about the fact that I have something called a job that limits my weekday participation. ::)
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Chaimfan comes out of the woodwork to instigate every Firday evening.
Oh yeah, just forget about the fact that I have something called a job that limits my weekday participation. ::)
But you are an instigator.
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Lisa, you are absolutely correct. I did make it seem like I meant rape but that is not the case. I should of been more careful. I meant that I have no sympathy for this girl if she is a muslim. I don't want her to be rapped but if she is a jew hating muslim then she deserves to be treated like an enemy. That is all. Lets all remember that we want JTF to grow. Lets not fight amongst ourselves and embarrass ourselves before new members.
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Lisa, you are absolutely correct. I did make it seem like I meant rape but that is not the case. I should of been more careful. I meant that I have no sympathy for this girl if she is a muslim. I don't want her to be rapped but if she is a jew hating muslim then she deserves to be treated like an enemy. That is all. Lets all remember that we want JTF to grow. Lets not fight amongst ourselves and embarrass ourselves before new members.
True. These stupid muzzie chicks march around and say 'shove your western rights, we like our veils!'...........well, they deserve all they get!
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If she is an arab, then only the worst should be done to her.
Another insane and typically evil opinion from DownWithLogic.
You have two options :
1.Answere what he saying like human being with no personal attackes, irrelevant and off-topic claims .
2.Shut up
How is that ?
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WORLD FULL OF SCUMBAGS !!!!
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The article imply That girl is muslim, but let us be frank it coud happened to every community, the're black sheeps everwhere so as the leftist imposed immorality and brainwashing; I won't advocate rapes, but is sounds like she willingly sell her out to him for expensive gifts, so no big suprise he treated her as slave or whore. Every woman voluntary mating herself with muslim desserves the punishment administered in Torrah for zoophilia. We shoud reserve kindness for our kind and neighbours only; You cannot save entire world; That's ofcourse is my opinion only. Shalom
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I'm with you, Ultra.
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yesi have to agree also
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If newman and mord agree then so do I.
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If newman and mord agree then so do I.
Well, you can't argue with Ultra's post. We do have to look after our own and our allies, not the enemy. Second.....sleeping with an arab (or a spook) is zoophilia because they're animals.
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Sorry, but this is just not right.
I have no sympathy for the religion of Islam. I believe it enslaves those who follow its teachings. But not all Muslims are completely bad people. Many are ignorant of what their own faith teaches....just as there are many Christians (And Jews) who never once pick up a Bible and really know, other than what their Pastor, Priest or Rabbi tells them, what their faith teaches.
Those who are Muslims need to be set free of wicked teachings. The only way to do that is to expose the lie. And, it should be done with as much love as possible. No one wants to willingly change, or to even listen to what someone has to say, even if what the person has to say is the truth...if that truth is spoken through barely disguised hate.
Arabs and Muslims are not animals. They are people just like you and me.
Don't get me wrong. If I know a Muslim is coming to kill me at 5:00 A.M., I will get up at 3:00 A.M. in order to go and kill him first.
BUT!
Just because they are my enemy does not mean they are worth less than I am. It does not mean that they are not humans.
The people on this forum seriously need to stop stooping to the level of those who demonize, de-humanize and de-legitimize their enemies. The enemies of the Jews do these things on a regular basis when speaking of Jews. We must not be like them.
We must be better. WE must hold ourselves to a higher standard.
It is entirely possible to speak the truth with humility, to look at the enemy with compassion, (the comments which I completely disagree with concerning the "He who is compassionate to the cruel, will in the end be cruel to the kind" comments not-withstanding), and when necessary to fight to the enemy to the death and win.
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Sorry, but this is just not right.
I have no sympathy for the religion of Islam. I believe it enslaves those who follow its teachings. But not all Muslims are completely bad people. Many are ignorant of what their own faith teaches....just as there are many Christians (And Jews) who never once pick up a Bible and really know, other than what their Pastor, Priest or Rabbi tells them, what their faith teaches.
Those who are Muslims need to be set free of wicked teachings. The only way to do that is to expose the lie. And, it should be done with as much love as possible. No one wants to willingly change, or to even listen to what someone has to say, even if what the person has to say is the truth...if that truth is spoken through barely disguised hate.
Arabs and Muslims are not animals. They are people just like you and me.
Don't get me wrong. If I know a Muslim is coming to kill me at 5:00 A.M., I will get up at 3:00 A.M. in order to go and kill him first.
BUT!
Just because they are my enemy does not mean they are worth less than I am. It does not mean that they are not humans.
The people on this forum seriously need to stop stooping to the level of those who demonize, de-humanize and de-legitimize their enemies. The enemies of the Jews do these things on a regular basis when speaking of Jews. We must not be like them.
We must be better. WE must hold ourselves to a higher standard.
It is entirely possible to speak the truth with humility, to look at the enemy with compassion, (the comments which I completely disagree with concerning the "He who is compassionate to the cruel, will in the end be cruel to the kind" comments not-withstanding), and when necessary to fight to the enemy to the death and win.
Jews are supposed to do what's right, not what is popular in public opinion. Your comment against "He who is compassionate to the cruel, will in the end be cruel to the kind." is heretical. That quote is from The Talmud.
Yacov is right.
This is typical of the moral equivalence baloney that is destroying the west. We are NOT stooping to the enemies level. Muslims villify Jews because they are Jews. We vilify muslims because they are evil. If you can't see the difference then you can't see the difference between a bank robber and a cop and are (therefore) morally vaccuous.
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Jews are supposed to do what's right, not what is popular in public opinion. Your comment against "He who is compassionate to the cruel, will in the end be cruel to the kind." is heretical. That quote is from The Talmud.
Ah! Heretical eh? Not so. The Mishnah quotes many different opinions that contradict one another. The Mishnah doesn't go on to say in which opinion the truth lies. Rather the Mishnah sometimes says "Others say" agreeing with neither one nor the other, contradicting both.
Moreover, the Torah She'Baal Peh given to Moses could only be in one opinion, not many contradictory opinions. Does HaShem have a split mind or personality? I think not.
Just because a quote comes frome the Talmud does not mean the quote comes from the mouth of HaShem. This might sound heretical to Orthodox Jews...but then I am not Orthodox. I prefer to look at things from an outside perspective rather than just giving in to dogma. Even if the Orthodox are right...being able to take some time and consider things for ones self rather than blindly accepting something just because Rabbi so and so said so is important.
I do not advocate any kind of moral equivalency. I don't believe that Muslims in any way are morally equal to the Jew. What I am saying is that the Arab, and the Muslim are people...worthy of respect due to the fact that HaShem made them...as much as he made any of us.
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Jews are supposed to do what's right, not what is popular in public opinion. Your comment against "He who is compassionate to the cruel, will in the end be cruel to the kind." is heretical. That quote is from The Talmud.
Ah! Heretical eh? Not so. The Mishnah quotes many different opinions that contradict one another. The Mishnah doesn't go on to say in which opinion the truth lies. Rather the Mishnah sometimes says "Others say" agreeing with neither one nor the other, contradicting both.
Moreover, the Torah She'Baal Peh given to Moses could only be in one opinion, not many contradictory opinions. Does HaShem have a split mind or personality? I think not.
Just because a quote comes frome the Talmud does not mean the quote comes from the mouth of HaShem. This might sound heretical to Orthodox Jews...but then I am not Orthodox. I prefer to look at things from an outside perspective rather than just giving in to dogma. Even if the Orthodox are right...being able to take some time and consider things for ones self rather than blindly accepting something just because Rabbi so and so said so is important.
I do not advocate any kind of moral equivalency. I don't believe that Muslims in any way are morally equal to the Jew. What I am saying is that the Arab, and the Muslim are people...worthy of respect due to the fact that HaShem made them...as much as he made any of us.
A pervert who sodomises children is a human, too. Do you respect him?
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A pervert who sodomises children is a human, too. Do you respect him?
You respect his humanity...and then you proceed to execute him for his crime.
However, saying all Muslims are perverts who sodomize children is like saying all black people are criminals, or all Italians are in the Mafia, or all Jews are greedy.
It's a stereotype, a huge generalization.
Was Mohammed a pedophile...yes he was. Is that wicked? Yes it is. I have no doubt Mohammed is paying for his wickedness even now. But not everyone who is a Muslim even knows the truth about Mohammed.
One must respect the fact that HaShem made all men.
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If she is an arab, then only the worst should be done to her.
Another insane and typically evil opinion from DownWithLogic.
You have two options :
1.Answere what he saying like human being with no personal attackes, irrelevant and off-topic claims .
2.Shut up
How is that ?
I have zero respect for you so both options mean nothing to me. Anyone who says someone should become a rape-slave or be killed just because they happen to be a certain race is an evil individual. You are also an evil individual for supporting that opinion. And telling others to "shut up" in the same post where you tell others to be civil is pretty hypocritical. But then again you're likely not smart enough to realize that. Dexter, you're like 14 years old... Don't be telling people to shut up like you have authority. I don't do it and neither should you.
I wanna know how the talmudic quotation can be used in respect to this poor girl. Is she a wicked individual? Is it wrong to be kind to a girl being used as a sex slave by PLO nazi terrorists just because she happens to be an arab? If this is the case it seems some people think that it's cruel to be kind towards ANY arabs. This is just pure racist excrement and it's evil. Why should we not feel bad for an arab girl being treated so despicably?
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If newman and mord agree then so do I.
Well, you can't argue with Ultra's post. We do have to look after our own and our allies, not the enemy. Second.....sleeping with an arab (or a spook) is zoophilia because they're animals.
lmao...
Joseph Farah, Bridget Gabrielle etc are animals? All the Christian Lebanese leaders in Canada who stood up for Israel and wished/urged Israel to finish off Hezballah are animals too, I guess. The reasoning of folks like DWI, Dexter and yourself newman borders on animal at times.
Jeffguy, I hope you're reading this evil garbage.
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If newman and mord agree then so do I.
Well, you can't argue with Ultra's post. We do have to look after our own and our allies, not the enemy. Second.....sleeping with an arab (or a spook) is zoophilia because they're animals.
lmao...
Joseph Farah, Bridget Gabrielle etc are animals? All the Christian Lebanese leaders in Canada who stood up for Israel and wished/urged Israel to finish off Hezballah are animals too, I guess. The reasoning of folks like DWI, Dexter and yourself newman borders on animal at times.
Jeffguy, I hope you're reading this evil garbage.
For the 100th time Brigitte Gabriel (and her kind) is NOT an arab, but a Pheonician.
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A pervert who sodomises children is a human, too. Do you respect him?
You respect his humanity...and then you proceed to execute him for his crime.
However, saying all Muslims are perverts who sodomize children is like saying all black people are criminals, or all Italians are in the Mafia, or all Jews are greedy.
It's a stereotype, a huge generalization.
Was Mohammed a pedophile...yes he was. Is that wicked? Yes it is. I have no doubt Mohammed is paying for his wickedness even now. But not everyone who is a Muslim even knows the truth about Mohammed.
One must respect the fact that HaShem made all men.
You've missed our point. The arab muslim girl adheres to a vile, Jew-hating religion. She adheres to it and doesn't oppose it, therefore....she agrees with it.
SILENCE =CONSENT.
If I join the nazi party and wear the uniform, should I not be condemned just because I don't personally kill any Jews??
This is the problem with non-orthodox Jews AND gentiles for that matter. You're a nice guy, DT, but because you won't accept the oral law, you've got a convoluted moral picture.
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If she is an arab, then only the worst should be done to her.
Another insane and typically evil opinion from DownWithLogic.
You have two options :
1.Answere what he saying like human being with no personal attackes, irrelevant and off-topic claims .
2.Shut up
How is that ?
I have zero respect for you so both options mean nothing to me. Anyone who says someone should become a rape-slave or be killed just because they happen to be a certain race is an evil individual. You are also an evil individual for supporting that opinion. And telling others to "shut up" in the same post where you tell others to be civil is pretty hypocritical. But then again you're likely not smart enough to realize that. Dexter, you're like 14 years old... Don't be telling people to shut up like you have authority. I don't do it and neither should you.
I wanna know how the talmudic quotation can be used in respect to this poor girl. Is she a wicked individual? Is it wrong to be kind to a girl being used as a sex slave by PLO nazi terrorists just because she happens to be an arab? If this is the case it seems some people think that it's cruel to be kind towards ANY arabs. This is just pure racist excrement and it's evil. Why should we not feel bad for an arab girl being treated so despicably?
How did you understand that I support his opinions, go to see what he posted later and than we'll talk .
Besides, was it so hard to write what you want to say as you did right now ? or you can do it only when you have the chance to say someone how evil he is and how enlightened you are . I told you to shut-up because you have no respect to somene else opinion, if you can't debate with no personal attackes as you did don't post posts at all, when you have no respect to other people's opinion don't be suprised if someone elses comments will have no respect for you, those thing are mutual, and when you tell someone his opinions with no explanation are evil and you attack him don't be suprised if it will strike back .
I ghess you chose option number 1#, good for you .
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If newman and mord agree then so do I.
Well, you can't argue with Ultra's post. We do have to look after our own and our allies, not the enemy. Second.....sleeping with an arab (or a spook) is zoophilia because they're animals.
lmao...
Joseph Farah, Bridget Gabrielle etc are animals? All the Christian Lebanese leaders in Canada who stood up for Israel and wished/urged Israel to finish off Hezballah are animals too, I guess. The reasoning of folks like DWI, Dexter and yourself newman borders on animal at times.
Jeffguy, I hope you're reading this evil garbage.
Its the Sabbath. He won't be on until this evening.
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It is a sad thing whether the girl is Israeli Jewish, or Arab....a man making a woman (of ANY religion) a sex slave to others unconsentually is disgusting and wrong.
What's more horrifying is those on this forum who cannot care for an abused woman if they think she might have been an Arab.
Where is the "Light Unto the Nations" concept here eh? We Jews are supposed to be different than the nations...holy and set apart for HaShem. G-d happens to care for even Arabs...who are his creations as much as we are.
There is a level of coldness that should not be allowed in our hearts which I've seen in some on this forum. I think it needs to change.
The 'Light unto the Nations Concept' has NOTHING to do with caring for their enemies. Israel is required to hate it's enemies. "He who is kind to the cruel will soon be cruel to the kind."
That's correct the christians not jews are required by G-d to love their enemies, and that's was always the the first commnandment to be broken in wartime.
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Like I said, I personally have no sympathy for these "Israeli" Arabs, who are mostly a Fifth Column ready to destroy Israel.
On the other hand, we always want to keep the moral high ground. So again guys, be careful how you phrase things.
Now regarding Thunderbolt's post, Brigitte Gabriel and Joseph Farah (who I think is awesome) are Arabs, and they are good people. However, they are good, Bible believing Christians. And I read someplace that Brigitte was thinking of becoming Jewish. I don't know about the Phoenician part, because by now that group probably assimilated with the local Arabs. So that's kind of splitting hairs.
Remember disliking them and wanting them to get out of Israel and leave Jews in piece is one thing, alluding to scenarios of rape and torture is just plain gross. Besides which I don't think rape is even Biblically legal for Jewish soldiers.
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Like I said, I personally have no sympathy for these "Israeli" Arabs, who are mostly a Fifth Column ready to destroy Israel.
On the other hand, we always want to keep the moral high ground. So again guys, be careful how you phrase things.
Now regarding Thunderbolt's post, Brigitte Gabriel and Joseph Farah (who I think is awesome) are Arabs, and they are good people. However, they are good, Bible believing Christians. And I read someplace that Brigitte was thinking of becoming Jewish. I don't know about the Phoenician part, because by now that group probably assimilated with the local Arabs. So that's kind of splitting hairs.
Remember disliking them and wanting them to get out of Israel and leave Jews in piece is one thing, alluding to scenarios of rape and torture is just plain gross. Besides which I don't think rape is even Biblically legal for Jewish soldiers.
Correction, Lisa they are not arabs, they are phoenician. Just as most Syrian christians are Assyrian, not arab.
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Jews are supposed to do what's right, not what is popular in public opinion. Your comment against "He who is compassionate to the cruel, will in the end be cruel to the kind." is heretical. That quote is from The Talmud.
I do not advocate any kind of moral equivalency. I don't believe that Muslims in any way are morally equal to the Jew. What I am saying is that the Arab, and the Muslim are people...worthy of respect due to the fact that HaShem made them...as much as he made any of us.
G-d made them A-rabs but Ishmael was a bastard fruit of Sarai's rebelion against His will; His descendants will always envy and fight the rightfull children of Isaac the jews and stepchildren the christians.
Genesis 16:
Sarai and Hagar:
1 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife had borne him no children, and she had an Egyptian maid whose name was Hagar. 2 So Sarai said to Abram, “Now behold, the LORD has prevented me from bearing children. Please go in to my maid; perhaps I will obtain children through her.” And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai. 3 After Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Abram’s wife Sarai took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to her husband Abram as his wife. 4 He went in to Hagar, and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her sight. 5 And Sarai said to Abram, “May the wrong done me be upon you. I gave my maid into your arms, but when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her sight. May the LORD judge between you and me.” 6 But Abram said to Sarai, “Behold, your maid is in your power; do to her what is good in your sight.” So Sarai treated her harshly, and she fled from her presence.
7 Now the angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from and where are you going?” And she said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.” 9 Then the angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority.” 10 Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, “I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count.” 11 The angel of the LORD said to her further,
“Behold, you are with child,
And you will bear a son;
And you shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.
12 “He will be a wild donkey of a man,
His hand will be against everyone,
And everyone’s hand will be against him;
And he will live to the east of all his brothers.”
but He never made them muslims; Islam is not a race you can leave it anytime you want. And about respect for their humanity read about Amalek, Cananites or people of Sodoma and Gomorah. This envy towards Yakow caused the entusiasm in which A-rabs took the ultimate replecment theology the Islam.
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I just want to reiterate that although some people made it seem like I did, a look at my posts will prove that I said nothing about rape. All I said was that bad things should happen to muslims. That is what I said and I stand by it. As far as people insulting dexter, his knowledge at 13 far surpasses some of the older members on here. His numerous talents and his wisdom is way over the heads of the people who criticize him.
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I agree with dexter totally. If we have newman, Yacov menashe, me, dexter, kellymaureen and others agreeing on something, why cant people on here respect it?
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As far as people insulting dexter, his knowledge at 13 far surpasses some of the older members on here. His numerous talents and his wisdom is way over the heads of the people who criticize him.
Who insulted Dexter?
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While no one here would ever think of condoning rape, we have to understand that rape is not only condoned but accepted by islam. Muslim women are the PROPERTY of muslim men, even non muslim women, they feel are theirs to do with as they please. Rape is rarely if ever prosecuted in islamic countries, because as sharia states she must have 4 male witnesses, now how often is a woman going to have 4 male witnesses who happen to be just standing around, if there are an additional 4 muslim males present chances are they are participating not watching. If a conviction happens it is the VICTIM who is charged, and likely will killed by her family for 'dishonoring' them.
I have a good friend who is a police officer in Michigan, he has attended MANY domestic disputes, the difference between a muslim home and a non muslim home is the guy beating the hell out of his wife in the non muslim home, most of the time KNOWS he is doing something wrong, in the muslim home, he believes(and sometimes even tells the officer) that it is his religious RIGHT to do it.
We as non muslim people do not have to take the higer moral ground, we are already on it.
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If she is an arab, then only the worst should be done to her.
Another insane and typically evil opinion from DownWithLogic.
Another wacko post from Parthnergoat .
(http://therapysessions.blogspot.com/capt.nn10403241625.mideast_israel_palestinians_arafat_nn104.jpg)(http://news.msn.co.il/NR/rdonlyres/8E89F294-9FA8-4603-96A0-C0C835427F18/270218/LambNewZealandleggyAP0782ZFull.jpg)
Dexter started with the insults.
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If she is an arab, then only the worst should be done to her.
Another insane and typically evil opinion from DownWithLogic.
Another wacko post from Parthnergoat .
(http://therapysessions.blogspot.com/capt.nn10403241625.mideast_israel_palestinians_arafat_nn104.jpg)(http://news.msn.co.il/NR/rdonlyres/8E89F294-9FA8-4603-96A0-C0C835427F18/270218/LambNewZealandleggyAP0782ZFull.jpg)
Dexter started with the insults.
Did you saw what I quoted ?
"Another insane and typically evil opinion from DownWithLogic."
Now who started the insults ?
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Dexter insulted nobody, he merely was telling another member to stop with the personal attacks.
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Another wacko post from Parthnergoat .
(http://therapysessions.blogspot.com/capt.nn10403241625.mideast_israel_palestinians_arafat_nn104.jpg)(http://news.msn.co.il/NR/rdonlyres/8E89F294-9FA8-4603-96A0-C0C835427F18/270218/LambNewZealandleggyAP0782ZFull.jpg)
No...That's not an insult.
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I don't want to continue this as it is not helpful but I should point out to you scriabin that dexters post with that pic was in response to an attack by someone else. Look at the previous posts.
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Another wacko post from Parthnergoat .
(http://therapysessions.blogspot.com/capt.nn10403241625.mideast_israel_palestinians_arafat_nn104.jpg)(http://news.msn.co.il/NR/rdonlyres/8E89F294-9FA8-4603-96A0-C0C835427F18/270218/LambNewZealandleggyAP0782ZFull.jpg)
No...That's not an insult.
My answer to tunderbolt :
" I told you to shut-up because you have no respect to somene else opinion, if you can't debate with no personal attackes as you did don't post posts at all, when you have no respect to other people's opinion don't be suprised if someone elses comments will have no respect for you, those thing are mutual"
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If she is an arab, then only the worst should be done to her.
Another insane and typically evil opinion from DownWithLogic.
Another wacko post from Parthnergoat .
(http://therapysessions.blogspot.com/capt.nn10403241625.mideast_israel_palestinians_arafat_nn104.jpg)(http://news.msn.co.il/NR/rdonlyres/8E89F294-9FA8-4603-96A0-C0C835427F18/270218/LambNewZealandleggyAP0782ZFull.jpg)
Dexter started with the insults.
Did you saw what I quoted ?
"Another insane and typically evil opinion from DownWithLogic."
Now who started the insults ?
You said that Dexter was insulted.
Furthermore, Thunderbolt's criticizm of you is only a marginal insult, if at all.
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oh..it's marginal only when tunderbolt attackes someone, but this " marginal " attacke is so marginal that it made such a mess, don't you think ?
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You are a genius dexter. דקסטר הוא גאון שלם.
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oh..it's marginal only when tunderbolt attackes someone, but this " marginal " attacke is so marginal that it made such a mess, don't you think ?
The mess started long before Thunderbolts remark.
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Thunderbolt is also a genius. As are FTF and Dawntreader. ;)
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I didn't insult you. I merely pointed out your opinions are typically of the insane variety and evil. Saying terrible things should happen to a person just because of their race/ethnicity is evil and insane. That's not an insult, it's a fact. And if I were to say a muslim terrorist's opinions were insane and evil I wouldn't be insulting them, I'd be stating a fact. Dexter wanted to be a backseat moderator and tell me to shut up, therefore he started the insults.
Dexter wants to make up childish insults that rhyme to my name, go for it. If that's worthy of his status as an "honored member" then it shows that title isn't worth much. Maybe that's some of his wonderful knowledge DWI keeps gushing about? Unfortunately, you're acting childish right now posting pictures of Arafat with a deformed goat and linking it to my username. Hilarious... if you're immature.
And please don't start with this arab/phoenician bologni. They're arabs. Phoenicians don't exist anymore. Arabs who say they're Phoenician are ashamed, and rightfully so, of the evil behavior of the majority of their kinsmen and wish to distance themselves from it.
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Thunderbolt, you calling me DOWNWITHLOGIC is exactly the same as me calling you thundersissy or some name like that. You should of just argued my point instead of calling me a name. You started the attack. As far as wishing bad on people simply because they are muslim, I wholeheartedly agree with that. The islamic religion commands its followers to kill jews so I can hate every muslim. It also says that any muslim who doesnt follow the path of jihad is an infidel so any "nice" muslim is no longer a muzzy. As far as dexter is concerned, don't even question his knowledge, it just isnt worth it. Me calling dexter a genius is an understatement.
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As far as dexter is concerned, don't even question his knowledge, it just isnt worth it.
What?
You speak of Dexter as though he were the Messiah!
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oh..it's marginal only when tunderbolt attackes someone, but this " marginal " attacke is so marginal that it made such a mess, don't you think ?
The mess started long before Thunderbolts remark.
No, it's Thunderbolt's attack that started the mess, he started the personal attackes, and after I attacked him back Mr. Scriabin woke up and reproach for starting a mess .
Dexter wants to make up childish insults that rhyme to my name, go for it. If that's worthy of his status as an "honored member" then it shows that title isn't worth much. Maybe that's some of his wonderful knowledge DWI keeps gushing about? Unfortunately, you're acting childish right now posting pictures of Arafat with a deformed goat and linking it to my username. Hilarious... if you're immature.
OK, I have no problem that someone will remove my "honored member" status .
I don't understand your logic, because I told you you have to option after you mocked DWI you saying i'm "immature" while you mocking at him because he don't have the same opinions as you have, and later you changing his nickname to "DownWithLogic", don't you think it's hypocrisy to complain me about what you did in the first place .
And now you are mocking me again and saying "Oh Dexter is childish" while you can't even argue like an adult man, don't preach values you can't implement yourself .
Dexter wanted to be a backseat moderator and tell me to shut up, therefore he started the insults.
Sure.."Another insane and typically evil opinion from DownWithLogic."
"Thunderbolt is also a genius. As are FTF and Dawntreader. "
Well, it possible, I don't claim i'm genius (and I don't think I am either) .
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::)
DWI, you need to realize how much you think and speak like a muslim before you go condemning a muslim girl who is used as a rape slave.
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::)
DWI, you need to realize how much you think and speak like a muslim before you go condemning a muslim girl who is used as a rape slave.
Great, now you are like Teran and SSN that claimed we are Judeo-Christians Jihadist, I think you should stop all this demagogic claims .
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Dexter, nobody will remove your honored status, you will only be promoted. You should be made a moderator as you are more than qualified.
Thunderbolt, I don't sound like a muslim. Have I advocated killing infidels? Have I recommended female circumcision? Have I recommended beheadings? The fact is that treating muslims the way you treat civilized people will not work.
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Dexter is certainly guilty of forcing that hideous, up-close photograph of that child molesting, murderous serpent down our throats.
I almost lost my lunch!
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Dexter is certainly guilty of forcing that hideous, up-close photograph of that child molesting, murderous serpent down our throats.
I almost lost my lunch!
molesting ?
anyway, i'll remove those pictures .
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Ok can we stop. Chaim has said last week that he doesnt like this and that it embarrasses the forum. Me and dexter did not want to respond but we must uphold jewish values and defend our religion. Their is no reason to continue.
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Dexter is certainly guilty of forcing that hideous, up-close photograph of that child molesting, murderous serpent down our throats.
I almost lost my lunch!
molesting ?
anyway, i'll remove those pictures .
Forgive me.
I thought that Arafat was a child molester. If you say he isn't, I have to believe you.
Anyhow, I've been told not to even question your knowledge, Dexter.
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Dexter is certainly guilty of forcing that hideous, up-close photograph of that child molesting, murderous serpent down our throats.
I almost lost my lunch!
molesting ?
anyway, i'll remove those pictures .
Forgive me.
I thought that Arafat was a child molester. If you say he isn't, I have to believe you.
Anyhow, I've been told not to even question your knowledge, Dexter.
Now that's a laugh, you are so funny Scriabin, infact, you should be this forum's comedian .
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Dexter is certainly guilty of forcing that hideous, up-close photograph of that child molesting, murderous serpent down our throats.
I almost lost my lunch!
molesting ?
anyway, i'll remove those pictures .
Forgive me.
I thought that Arafat was a child molester. If you say he isn't, I have to believe you.
Anyhow, I've been told not to even question your knowledge, Dexter.
Now that's a laugh, you are so funny Scriabin, infact, you should be this forum's comedian .
Thank you, but that's Newman. You said it, "Molesting?"
You're pretty funny yourself. ;)
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Ok can we stop. Chaim has said last week that he doesnt like this and that it embarrasses the forum. Me and dexter did not want to respond but we must uphold jewish values and defend our religion. Their is no reason to continue.
Yes, I think we should all stop. This is not helpful. I doubt that my misgivings about the way people talk on here will really change anything anyways.
However, Downwithislam should know that I happen to be Jewish. I'm Israeli even. (born and raised in the USA though). I have Jewish values. Just because I don't hold to the Torah She'Baal Peh does not mean I'm not Jewish. I think I have valid reasons for not following the Oral Law.
And when other Jews, on this forum, make it seem as if theirs is the only "right" way...it tends to upset me. Because I know, that pretty much 80% of the time, those that seem to think theirs is the only right way...are following tradition without taking the time to really research things, or think things through.
I personally hate it when people, Jews, Christians...whoever, decide they believe something just because everyone else believes it...or just because Rabbi so and so, or Pastor so and so said something.
We all have minds of our own. If we actually used them, good things might happen.
But if you are going to listen to a particular Rabbi, didn't Rabbi Kahane say that those who cannot debate, defame?
So if anyone would care to take this off the list and debate me on the issue (Without being ugly, and without being insulting) I would be more than happy to.
But since our overall goals are the same...here at least, we should agree to disagree on this issue and there should be peace and unity among us.
P.S.
Thanks for letting me know I'm a genius Scriabin. LOL
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Ok can we stop. Chaim has said last week that he doesnt like this and that it embarrasses the forum. Me and dexter did not want to respond but we must uphold jewish values and defend our religion. Their is no reason to continue.
Yes, I think we should all stop. This is not helpful. I doubt that my misgivings about the way people talk on here will really change anything anyways.
However, Downwithislam should know that I happen to be Jewish. I'm Israeli even. (born and raised in the USA though). I have Jewish values. Just because I don't hold to the Torah She'Baal Peh does not mean I'm not Jewish. I think I have valid reasons for not following the Oral Law.
And when other Jews, on this forum, make it seem as if theirs is the only "right" way...it tends to upset me. Because I know, that pretty much 80% of the time, those that seem to think theirs is the only right way...are following tradition without taking the time to really research things, or think things through.
I personally hate it when people, Jews, Christians...whoever, decide they believe something just because everyone else believes it...or just because Rabbi so and so, or Pastor so and so said something.
We all have minds of our own. If we actually used them, good things might happen.
But if you are going to listen to a particular Rabbi, didn't Rabbi Kahane say that those who cannot debate, defame?
So if anyone would care to take this off the list and debate me on the issue (Without being ugly, and without being insulting) I would be more than happy to.
But since our overall goals are the same...here at least, we should agree to disagree on this issue and there should be peace and unity among us.
P.S.
Thanks for letting me know I'm a genius Scriabin. LOL
Are you Karati jew ?
I agree with you in 100%, that's why I ignor Scriabin's last post .
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Ok can we stop. Chaim has said last week that he doesnt like this and that it embarrasses the forum. Me and dexter did not want to respond but we must uphold jewish values and defend our religion. Their is no reason to continue.
Yes, I think we should all stop. This is not helpful. I doubt that my misgivings about the way people talk on here will really change anything anyways.
However, Downwithislam should know that I happen to be Jewish. I'm Israeli even. (born and raised in the USA though). I have Jewish values. Just because I don't hold to the Torah She'Baal Peh does not mean I'm not Jewish. I think I have valid reasons for not following the Oral Law.
And when other Jews, on this forum, make it seem as if theirs is the only "right" way...it tends to upset me. Because I know, that pretty much 80% of the time, those that seem to think theirs is the only right way...are following tradition without taking the time to really research things, or think things through.
I personally hate it when people, Jews, Christians...whoever, decide they believe something just because everyone else believes it...or just because Rabbi so and so, or Pastor so and so said something.
We all have minds of our own. If we actually used them, good things might happen.
But if you are going to listen to a particular Rabbi, didn't Rabbi Kahane say that those who cannot debate, defame?
So if anyone would care to take this off the list and debate me on the issue (Without being ugly, and without being insulting) I would be more than happy to.
But since our overall goals are the same...here at least, we should agree to disagree on this issue and there should be peace and unity among us.
P.S.
Thanks for letting me know I'm a genius Scriabin. LOL
Are you Karati jew ?
I agree with you in 100%, that's why I ignor Scriabin's last post .
You're so funny, Dexter! ;D
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Ok can we stop. Chaim has said last week that he doesnt like this and that it embarrasses the forum. Me and dexter did not want to respond but we must uphold jewish values and defend our religion. Their is no reason to continue.
Yes, I think we should all stop. This is not helpful. I doubt that my misgivings about the way people talk on here will really change anything anyways.
However, Downwithislam should know that I happen to be Jewish. I'm Israeli even. (born and raised in the USA though). I have Jewish values. Just because I don't hold to the Torah She'Baal Peh does not mean I'm not Jewish. I think I have valid reasons for not following the Oral Law.
And when other Jews, on this forum, make it seem as if theirs is the only "right" way...it tends to upset me. Because I know, that pretty much 80% of the time, those that seem to think theirs is the only right way...are following tradition without taking the time to really research things, or think things through.
I personally hate it when people, Jews, Christians...whoever, decide they believe something just because everyone else believes it...or just because Rabbi so and so, or Pastor so and so said something.
We all have minds of our own. If we actually used them, good things might happen.
But if you are going to listen to a particular Rabbi, didn't Rabbi Kahane say that those who cannot debate, defame?
So if anyone would care to take this off the list and debate me on the issue (Without being ugly, and without being insulting) I would be more than happy to.
But since our overall goals are the same...here at least, we should agree to disagree on this issue and there should be peace and unity among us.
P.S.
Thanks for letting me know I'm a genius Scriabin. LOL
Are you Karati jew ?
I agree with you in 100%, that's why I ignor Scriabin's last post .
You're so funny, Dexter! ;D
I'm happy you are entertained .
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Are you Karati jew ?
I agree with you in 100%, that's why I ignor Scriabin's last post .
Did you mean a Karaite Jew?
No I am not. I am Conservative. BUT! Even though the Conservative movement accepts the Torah She'Baal Peh, I personally have problems with aspects of it.
I believe it is a valuable body of work. But I don't believe it came from HaShem to Moshe at the same time as the Torah She'Bichsav.
As I mentioned earlier, if it had come directly from HaShem to Moshe...why then does it have multiple opinions? As I said earlier, is G-d not of one mind? And again...sometimes the Oral Law in an opinion says "others say"....
Who are these "Others?"
Did G-d have a discussion with other gods or something before giving the Oral Law to Moshe?
No. Because in the Tanach, in Yeshiyah 45:5-6 it says:
I am HaShem, and there is none else, beside Me there is no G-d; I have girded thee, though thou hast not known Me;
6
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me; I am HaShem; and there is none else;
7
If there are no other gods etc., to whom are these "other" opinions which HaShem supposedly handed down to Moshe acredited?
There is a fundamental flaw here. That's why I don't personally follow the Oral Law as if it came from HaShem himself.
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Well, Chazal using the next quotes to proove that Ha Torah sheBe Al-Pe does exist :
Leviticus
26:46 These are the statutes, regulations, and instructions which the Lord established between himself and the Israelites at Mount Sinai through Moses.
Deuteronomy
31:1 Then Moses went and spoke these words to all Israel
And it also impossible to know how to do some laws because in the Torah you don't have enough details, so there must be Torah sheBe Al-Pe that says how to do some laws .
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1- I really bothers me that people here are posting on Shabb-t.
2- the only reason that their are different opinions in Torah Shebal Pe is becuase a lot of the knowledge of the DETAILS of the laws has been lost. The laws themselves are uniform , ex- you have to keep the Shabb-t, etc. But their are disagreements on some details, becuase Jews have lost some of the details of the laws, so Chachamim who study then make a legal decision to what appears to be the best option.
- If you dont belive in Torah Shebaal Pe then how do you know to keep any of the laws. What do you do when it talks about putting Tefillin between you eyes and on your arm? do you do it at all? do you literally put it between your eyes, what shape etc. etc.
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1- I really bothers me that people here are posting on Shabb-t.
2- the only reason that their are different opinions in Torah Shebal Pe is becuase a lot of the knowledge of the DETAILS of the laws has been lost. The laws themselves are uniform , ex- you have to keep the Shabb-t, etc. But their are disagreements on some details, becuase Jews have lost some of the details of the laws, so Chachamim who study then make a legal decision to what appears to be the best option.
- If you dont belive in Torah Shebaal Pe then how do you know to keep any of the laws. What do you do when it talks about putting Tefillin between you eyes and on your arm? do you do it at all? do you literally put it between your eyes, what shape etc. etc.
I'm a non-Jew.
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I am a Jew. But I'm not Orthodox by any means. Posting on Shabbat does not hurt HaShem's feelings I don't think.
Besides, the whole idea of not writing two letters on shabbat?
I disagree with it. I won't say more out of respect for those who hold that sort of thing sacred. I just personally don't think it has anything to do with keeping Shabbat.
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I am a Jew. But I'm not Orthodox by any means. Posting on Shabbat does not hurt HaShem's feelings I don't think.
Besides, the whole idea of not writing two letters on shabbat?
I disagree with it. I won't say more out of respect for those who hold that sort of thing sacred. I just personally don't think it has anything to do with keeping Shabbat.
How would you know what hurts Hashe-m or not? G-d told the Jews to keep Shabb-t, it is THE mitzva which makes a Jew really a Jew.
"I dont think" - theirs your problem- How do you expect to understand G-d's laws and ideas threw your (my included) limited understanding of things? (of course we learn and try to keep the crumbs of different ideas) But still you should follow what G-d has ordered you to.
- You have to understand the importance of Shabb-t and that a Jew who intentionally breaks it is subject to the death penalty. (of course everone Jew should be given the benifit of the doubt and repent), but seriously is going on the computer, or watching telivision worth doing then keeping the Holy Shabb-t? By Jews Keeping the Shabb-t soo much blessing will await them in this and the next World.
- Some Rabbis ( I heard Rav Mizrahi) say that if a Jew doesnt keep the Shabb-t he is like a goy, maybe even worse because a goy wont get judged for breaking the Shabb-t or eatin non-kosher but a Jew will.
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I am a Jew. But I'm not Orthodox by any means. Posting on Shabbat does not hurt HaShem's feelings I don't think.
Besides, the whole idea of not writing two letters on shabbat?
I disagree with it. I won't say more out of respect for those who hold that sort of thing sacred. I just personally don't think it has anything to do with keeping Shabbat.
How would you know what hurts Hashe-m or not? G-d told the Jews to keep Shabb-t, it is THE mitzva which makes a Jew really a Jew.
"I dont think" - theirs your problem- How do you expect to understand G-d's laws and ideas threw your (my included) limited understanding of things? (of course we learn and try to keep the crumbs of different ideas) But still you should follow what G-d has ordered you to.
- You have to understand the importance of Shabb-t and that a Jew who intentionally breaks it is subject to the death penalty. (of course everone Jew should be given the benifit of the doubt and repent), but seriously is going on the computer, or watching telivision worth doing then keeping the Holy Shabb-t? By Jews Keeping the Shabb-t soo much blessing will await them in this and the next World.
- Some Rabbis ( I heard Rav Mizrahi) say that if a Jew doesnt keep the Shabb-t he is like a goy, maybe even worse because a goy wont get judged for breaking the Shabb-t or eatin non-kosher but a Jew will.
This is the thin end of the wedge. Next thing is he can't understand why he can't eat bacon, or shrimp, or have to wear a hat.............the next thing is kissing a cross!
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maybe you should learn some real Torah Judaism (and not conservative or other alien philosophies and ideologies) and then see where you go with it.
http://www.torahanytime.com/recent_lectures.html
and
http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp
- tell me which lecture you have listined to and what you think.
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I am a Jew. But I'm not Orthodox by any means. Posting on Shabbat does not hurt HaShem's feelings I don't think.
Besides, the whole idea of not writing two letters on shabbat?
I disagree with it. I won't say more out of respect for those who hold that sort of thing sacred. I just personally don't think it has anything to do with keeping Shabbat.
How would you know what hurts Hashe-m or not? G-d told the Jews to keep Shabb-t, it is THE mitzva which makes a Jew really a Jew.
"I dont think" - theirs your problem- How do you expect to understand G-d's laws and ideas threw your (my included) limited understanding of things? (of course we learn and try to keep the crumbs of different ideas) But still you should follow what G-d has ordered you to.
- You have to understand the importance of Shabb-t and that a Jew who intentionally breaks it is subject to the death penalty. (of course everone Jew should be given the benifit of the doubt and repent), but seriously is going on the computer, or watching telivision worth doing then keeping the Holy Shabb-t? By Jews Keeping the Shabb-t soo much blessing will await them in this and the next World.
- Some Rabbis ( I heard Rav Mizrahi) say that if a Jew doesnt keep the Shabb-t he is like a goy, maybe even worse because a goy wont get judged for breaking the Shabb-t or eatin non-kosher but a Jew will.
This is the thin end of the wedge. Next thing is he can't understand why he can't eat bacon, or shrimp, or have to wear a hat.............the next thing is kissing a cross!
Breaking Shabb-t is worse then eating bacon, or shrimp , - even worse then kissing a cross (a cross isn't an idol thats why a Jewish jeweler is allowed to make and sell them). , but breaking Shabb-t is a very grave sin that G-d warns over and over.
one who breaks Shabb-t is worse than a murderer (G-d have mercy). Someone who breaks Shabb-t (if hes known) cant have an Aliya to the Torah, cant be counted as part of a minyan and other things. But it doesnt say that even about a murderer.
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Breaking Shabb-t is worse then eating bacon, or shrimp , - even worse then kissing a cross (a cross isn't an idol thats why a Jewish jeweler is allowed to make and sell them). , but breaking Shabb-t is a very grave sin that G-d warns over and over.
one who breaks Shabb-t is worse than a murderer (G-d have mercy). Someone who breaks Shabb-t (if hes known) cant have an Aliya to the Torah, cant be counted as part of a minyan and other things. But it doesnt say that even about a murderer.
Really?
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Breaking Shabb-t is worse then eating bacon, or shrimp , - even worse then kissing a cross (a cross isn't an idol thats why a Jewish jeweler is allowed to make and sell them). , but breaking Shabb-t is a very grave sin that G-d warns over and over.
one who breaks Shabb-t is worse than a murderer (G-d have mercy). Someone who breaks Shabb-t (if hes known) cant have an Aliya to the Torah, cant be counted as part of a minyan and other things. But it doesnt say that even about a murderer.
Really?
YES.
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Ah, but I am not breaking Shabbat.
When typing, one is not "writing". Nowhere have I physically written two letters on Shabbat.
This is why it is also permissable to erase G-d's name when typing on the computer. In fact, when deleting G-d's name from a computer screen, it seems that in fact nothing is being written or erased (except for electromagnetic impulses). Actually, when you display Torah on your screen you are actually erasing and rewriting it 50 (or 60) times a second. So when you erase it or shut your screen off, you are not doing anything worse than you have just done thousand of times in the last few minutes. Nevertheless, many people hyphenate G-d on a computer, as a sign of respect, to show that a reference to G-d is being made.
So if I type something, I actually have not "written" anything either. Thus I have not broken Shabbat.
Newman, you're being just a touch insulting here. Nowhere am I claiming that a Jew should not keep Shabbat. I am saying that the rules the Orthodox SAY are correct...are not necessarily truly correct. Nowhere did I say that I eat bacon (I don't), I have never kissed a Cross. My goodness. (What, I should go and kiss an instrument of death, something like an electric chair too?)
Also, I am not working on Shabbat. Watching Television is not breaking Shabbat. What kind of craziness is this?
Tzvi, you are being a touch over-zealous here. If, G-d forbid I am really breaking the Shabbat then maybe He will show me. I am open to hearing truth. I'm open to listening and researching for myself.
But no one, and nothing shall convince me that I am just because someone points in horror and says so. Prove it to me and I will repent. Otherwise? It's just a lot of hoopla.
P.S.
Tzvi, I will listen to both lectures you presented and let you know what I think.
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Writing on a computer is not considered writing I think, but turning on the computer monitor is violating the biblical prohibition of starting fires on Sabbath since the monitor is powered by a high voltage electron beam, which comes from superheated metal being atomized. Even if you use a LCD monitor, the indicator lights on the monitor and on the computer are considered like little candles, and the flourescent bulb powering the LCD monitor is questionable if it is like starting a fire or not, probably not. Similarly, the motor used to cool the CPU and the computer case may possibly be considered starting a fire since brush motors make lots of sparks by the metal brush design.
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This is ridiculous. The prohibition against starting a fire was because in those days starting a fire actually was WORK. It was hard to start a fire...you had to gather wood, chop it up, then go about the business of getting it lit.
Turning on your computer screen? Please.
Besides...what if you leave your computer on ALL the time? If you did, then you technically started the "fire" the day before Shabbat.
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Ah, but I am not breaking Shabbat.
When typing, one is not "writing". Nowhere have I physically written two letters on Shabbat.
This is why it is also permissable to erase G-d's name when typing on the computer. Because every letter you type is created and destroyed thousands of times a second.
Newman, you're being just a touch insulting here. Nowhere am I claiming that a Jew should not keep Shabbat. I am saying that the rules the Orthodox SAY are correct...are not necessarily truly correct. Nowhere did I say that I eat bacon (I don't), I have never kissed a Cross. My goodness. (What, I should go and kiss an instrument of death, something like an electric chair too?)
Also, I am not working on Shabbat. Watching Television is not breaking Shabbat. What kind of craziness is this?
Tzvi, you are being a touch over-zealous here. If, G-d forbid I am really breaking the Shabbat then maybe He will show me. I am open to hearing truth. I'm open to listening and researching for myself.
But no one, and nothing shall convince me that I am just because someone points in horror and says so. Prove it to me and I will repent. Otherwise? It's just a lot of hoopla.
P.S.
Tzvi, I will listen to both lectures you presented and let you know what I think.
their are 39 melahot, writing is part of one of them. creating fire is another. Using the computer and pressing the buttons of the t.v. is in the category of creating fire. (their are many explenations of why and how). Technically you can watch t.v. if you dont press the buttons, but its forbidded becuase a- you might come to press the button and b- other people would think you are breaking Shabb-t (which isnt allowed because they might come to break it and you cant let someone think you are doing something wronge.)
- G-d will only show you as far as you are willing to investigate his laws. You cant say - one day G-d will show me the right path or how to do this or that without properly trying to learn what you have to do.
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do you live in Queens? if yes their are lectures and places where you can go and ask a Rabbi and discuss all of your questions.
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This is ridiculous. The prohibition against starting a fire was because in those days starting a fire actually was WORK. It was hard to start a fire...you had to gather wood, chop it up, then go about the business of getting it lit.
Turning on your computer screen? Please.
Besides...what if you leave your computer on ALL the time? If you did, then you technically started the "fire" the day before Shabbat.
The Torah is eternal and applies for every generation as it says so in the Bible. The Prohibition of starting a fire on Sabbath applies for all times, not just for a short period of time a few thousand years ago. Technically, when you use the computer even if it is left on, you are still starting a fire based on the way mdoern computers work, in that the more CPU usage you use, the faster the CPU fan is running, plus the network card has indicator lights on it and when you use the network, you are causing the lights to blink on and off. Plus, the Rabbis prohibited doing things that are not normally used on Sabbath since they could easily lead to violating the Sabbath. Let alone the purpose of the Sabbath is to rest from your daily activities and work you do during the week and dedicate a day to serving G-d. If you watch TV on Sabbath, even if you are technically not violating it by leaving the TV on the whole time, it disrupts the whole purpose of the Sabbath.
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LOL
Tzvi,
No. I live in Texas.
Also, I cannot agree with notions about the television or the computer. Sorry. I do not light actual fires. It's the Orthodox Rabbis who are so afraid of offending HaShem that they make up ridiculous rules that have nothing to do REALLY with the original prohibition.
It's like eating cheese with meat.
All the Bible has to say is: Don't cook the kid in its mothers milk.
From this we get "Don't eat a cheeseburger."????
As I said before...I don't accept the Torah She'Baal Peh. So....
I also don't accept rulings of Rabbis by and large...especially Orthodox ones.
By the way Tzvi, your comment about learning "Real Torah Judaism" implies that the other streams of Judaism are not legitimate, and that only Orthodox Judaism is correct. A touch arrogant don't you think?
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Chemically speaking there is nothing different than taking out a match and lighting a fire, and turning on a light bulb (or cathode ray TV in our case). They both reach extremely hot temperatures at there core and can set off flammable materials. In fact, the light bulb's tungsten filament reaches a much hotter temperature then a candle does. This is science, not Rabbis making things up.
Technically if you take a Kosher burger that is not hot enough to cook things on and eat it together with cheese, you are not violating a Biblical prohibition, but a Rabbinic one. So if this is the worse thing you do, you are only violating a Rabbinic prohibition.
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listin to the lecture Divineinformation (all the parts) from Divineinformation.com, it shows how both the Oral and Written Torah can only be Divine. You laugh now but I guarantee you, you wont be laughing when you find the truth either in this world ( if you are smart and lucky) or G-d forbid in the next when it is too late.
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Wow...set off a firestorm here cause I can't agree with you gentlemen. My apologies.
I think I will let this be my last post on this subject since you won't be convincing me any time soon.
I agree with the broad goals of Kahanism...and a Greater Land of Israel.
And once again...I don't think I'll be burning in hell if I don't accept the Torah She'Baal Peh.
No one here has given ANY kind of satisfactory answer for the following questions:
1. If the law as it is in the Mishnah was intended to be oral, then how would it be permissible to be written?
2. Why does the Mishnah quote many different opinions if it all came from one source?
3. Shouldn't the truth of the oral law given to Moses only be in one opinion? Not many opinions?
4. Why doesn't the Mishnah speak solely in the name of Moshe?
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You have asked a very good question since most Jews, including most Orthodox ones do not fully understand the concept of the Oral law. Lucky for you, there is someone here who fully understands it after many years of study.
The first question is where did the concept of the Oral Law originate from and what is the lesson of the oral law with respect to Judaism?
The origins of the Oral Law in fact predate the exodus and the Bible. In the early days of man, G-d transmitted information through prophesy and that was handed down orally from mouth to mouth from father to son. For example, G-d transmitted the Seven laws of Noah to Noah and Noah transmitted it by mouth to whoever would listen and to his sons. In fact, our forefather Jacob studied information about G-d from Noah's sons Shem and Ever. Even before the Bible, righteous men such as Noah and his sons, plus Abraham, Yitzchak and Jacob would think about G-d through studying discover new things about him. Abraham compiled the first piece of the Oral Law specific for Judaism since G-d loved Abraham and gave him incredible prophesy, this prophesy combined with his incredible mind discovered much information about G-d and knew concepts mentioned in the Bible before they were given. Even though the forefathers did not know the entire Bible, the were aware of some information contained in it through their insight. For example, the Bible says his son Joshuah married his second son to the wife of his first son after the first son died childless to bring seed to the one that died. This is called Yibum and Moses states this commandment later on in the Bible. There is also a commandment that if the daughter of a priest is a harlet she must be burnt. Compare this to Joshuah bringing out Tamar to be burnt for being a harlot. According to tradition, much more information was known by Abraham but much of it wasn't stated in the Bible. Abraham passed this information through his sons, Yitzchak uncovered even more information and passed in down to Jacob and on and on. From what I just told you it is now clear what the benefit of having the Oral law is, that it emphasizes a strong bond between parent and child, since the child must accept the Oral tradition from their parent from generation to generation or it ceases to exist. The oral transmission from father to son is emphasized in the Bible as being the key to Judaism, that one must honor their parents and "ask your father and he will tell you, your elder and he will tell you". Similarly "and your son will say "what's this?", and you will say to your son "with a strong hand the L-rd took us out of bondage..." Without honoring your parents and accepting their oral tradition, Judaism will cease to exist.
The second question is what is the oral law and why do we need an oral law
The Oral Law has two parts.
1) The belief that Moses explained the written Torah Orally to Israel, and that this information was passed down from generation to generation. This is the first part of the Oral Law, what Moses passed down.
2) The second part is the beauty of the Oral Law, and what is not known to most Jews. Jews believe that the Torah is infinite, since it is divine and an infinite amount of information is contained in it. It is therefore impossible to uncover all information about the Torah. Even if Moses knew all this information, it would take hundreds of thousands of years to record everything which would be impossible. Therefore, what G-d told Moses to write down he wrote down. So how do we go about giving an incomplete Torah to Israel? Moses himself made a brief summary of the Oral law that he understood and told this to Israel the most necessary information that it should easily be remembered. From the Written Law and Moses Oral Law, it is possible to uncover more information, and to expand the Oral Law in future generations. In every generation, there are thousands people who uncover new concepts in the Torah and expand the Oral Law, some more than others. And when this information is added to the previous Oral Law, even more information can be derived from it, so the Oral Law is an exponential function that expands at an exponential rate and as time progresses more is uncovered. As more is uncovered, arguments and differences of opinion arise as well. Much of the Talmud contains these expanded discoveries, and tries to use logic to prove which opinion is correct. The Oral law did not end with the Talmud, it continues to progress even today and simple people like me and you can uncover new concepts in the Torah and expand the Oral Law.
1. If the law as it is in the Mishnah was intended to be oral, then how would it be permissible to be written?
2. Why does the Mishnah quote many different opinions if it all came from one source?
3. Shouldn't the truth of the oral law given to Moses only be in one opinion? Not many opinions?
4. Why doesn't the Mishnah speak solely in the name of Moshe?
1. Since the days of old, one of the purposes of the Oral Law was to maintain the necessary bond between parent and child so that the oral tradition is passed from father to son. If the law was written down, then this bond would not be necessary, and this father to son tradition which is the primary component of Judaism will be mocked and every idiot and nation would make up their own version of the Torah and not heed to the traditions of their fathers, as is happening today. Therefore, it is forbidden to write down the Oral Law and the Oral Law was sung and memorized by all Jews. Also, if the Oral Law is written, Jews would not respect new Torah concepts that are discovered later on and are told Orally, such as is happening today and Jews would not put effort into expanding the Oral Law. However, the Oral Law expanded to such an extent and the greatness of the generations was declining that the Great Rabbis saw that the Oral Law began to be forgotten. Rather than have this precious Torah be forgotten they violated this prohibition on writing down the Oral Law, and as Tzivi says they found a verse in Psalms that they interpuited as allowing this in this time of need.
2,3,4. You are exaggerating the arguments in the Mishna. Usually (90% of the time or more) the Mishnah states a concept that is agreed by all Rabbis, and is the direct Oral Law transmitted through Moses. Even though the Mishna does not say explicitly that Moses said this in every paragraph, that is to not act repetitive as it does say this in the first verses of Mishna Avot that Moses transmitted the Oral Law to Moses who transmitted it to Joshuah who transmitted it to the elders.... and goes down the entire line and then quotes things stated by the person in the last line. Then it says that that Rabbi's student accepted the tradition and he says the following etc. So whenever the Mishna says something that is not argued on, it is directly stated by Moses. Basically, most verses in the Mishna start off with a general concept not argued with, this is the Oral Law of Moses. Arguments arise from three sides. 1) As the Oral Law is transmitted generation to generation, sometimes information is forgotten or unintentionally misquoted and an argument develops as to what is the correct transmission. This is the rarest form of argument, since in the Mishna that I read so far, 90% of the time, crucial information is agreed upon and argument arises only in the fine detals. 2) As the Oral Law is expanded, Rabbis make up a entirely new conceptual case not thought of before and differ how to apply the Torah to this specific case. 3) As the Oral Law is expanded, several Rabbis come up with different conclusions based on the previous Oral Law and Written Law such as specifics for Mosaic concepts such as what is considered carrying on Sabbath and similar things of this nature. Most arguments in the Mishna are of this type, where everyone agrees on the general concepts and argue on the specifics. Another Chunk of the Mishna deals with Rabbinical decrees which Rabbis made later on to guard the Biblical Prohibitions from being violated, and some times they argue on the extend of these prohibitions so don't confuse these with arguments on the Oral Law.
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Wow...set off a firestorm here cause I can't agree with you gentlemen. My apologies.
I think I will let this be my last post on this subject since you won't be convincing me any time soon.
I agree with the broad goals of Kahanism...and a Greater Land of Israel.
And once again...I don't think I'll be burning in hell if I don't accept the Torah She'Baal Peh.
No one here has given ANY kind of satisfactory answer for the following questions:
1. If the law as it is in the Mishnah was intended to be oral, then how would it be permissible to be written?
2. Why does the Mishnah quote many different opinions if it all came from one source?
3. Shouldn't the truth of the oral law given to Moses only be in one opinion? Not many opinions?
4. Why doesn't the Mishnah speak solely in the name of Moshe?
1- The Sanhedrin derived from a verse in Psalms - basically meaning that in order to preserve the Law it is necessary to sometimes break it. It had to be written at that time since the Jews were forgetting a lot of the oral tradition. (because of persecutions and the galut, etc.)
2- sometimes because they are talking about 2 different situations in applying that law, and also because some details were forgotten.
When I have time I will rewrite whats written in this book I have- it is the Letter Of Sherira Gaon (986 C.E.)
also check Rav Saadiya Gaon in his refutation to the karaites.
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Rav Mizrachi: Proof That Torah is Divine - Part I and II
http://www.kolyakov.org/rav_mizrachi_11-27-06.html
http://www.kolyakov.org/rav_mizrachi_12-4-06.html
Another 2 great lectures.
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While I agree that according to Judaism breaking shabbos is bad, their is no way it is considered worse than murder. You cannot repent for murdering someone.
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By the way Tzvi, your comment about learning "Real Torah Judaism" implies that the other streams of Judaism are not legitimate, and that only Orthodox Judaism is correct. A touch arrogant don't you think?
Yes, the other so called streams are all man made. They are from the eruv rav, and no it isnt being arrogant, at situations like these one needs to tell the truth and even crush the opponents if possible.
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I happen to agree with tzvi here. The other forms of judaism are not real and they are drek. For instance, lets say you violate jewish laws but you know that according to judaism they are forbidden, their is hope that you will come to your senses and repent. The reformed and conservative jews change the laws of the torah as they see fit. What they are practicing is nothing near judaism. They have simply made up their own religion which is not judaism. Someone who violates the laws of judaism can one day repent while the others just made up their own religion.
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You know, I have a problem with saying Jews need to keep more laws in order to be saved than Gentiles (Noahides) do. It doesn't seem logical for me that there is one track to heaven for one group of people and another for the other.
I know Chaim and the rest of JTF will offer me explanations as to why this is, but I don't see how it can be reconciled myself. Either the 613 are mandatory for all of humanity or they are not mandatory. I simply cannot see another coherent system.
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You know, I have a problem with saying Jews need to keep more laws in order to be saved than Gentiles (Noahides) do. It doesn't seem logical for me that there is one track to heaven for one group of people and another for the other.
I know Chaim and the rest of JTF will offer me explanations as to why this is, but I don't see how it can be reconciled myself. Either the 613 are mandatory for all of humanity or they are not mandatory. I simply cannot see another coherent system.
It's perfectly logical. As a catholic priest has different rules to a catholic lay person.......the 'Nation of Priests' (Jews) have different rules to the layety (gentiles). What's so hard to understand?
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A Catholic priest chooses to become a priest, he isn't born into it, and the rules have to do with doing your job, not whether you go to heaven or hell.
Like I have said before, it's not anything that anybody will be able to explain to me. I don't see how G-d could have a different system for people because of their birth.
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even within the Jews everyone has their own route and uniqueness. Yisrael is one level, the Leviim and then Kohanim (priests), also about prayer each tribe had their own gate to prayer.
Maybe you are right in that when the opportunity came all the nations had a chance of accepting the Torah, but the other nations didnt want it, only Israel said Naase Venishma (we will do and we will listin). Individuals of the other nations wanted to accept it, but the majority of their nation didnt (they later converted, usually threw gilgul- reincarnation and converted).
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When I read the Tanach (Tanach), I haven't seen where it applies just to Jews. In fact, I recall reading that salvation is for the Jews, meaning that only people who converted and joined the Israelites got to heaven. Ruth is a good example.
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A Catholic priest chooses to become a priest, he isn't born into it, and the rules have to do with doing your job, not whether you go to heaven or hell.
Like I have said before, it's not anything that anybody will be able to explain to me. I don't see how G-d could have a different system for people because of their birth.
was it your choice to be born? it also wont be your choice to die (most likley). What mission G-d gives an individual is the mission he has to accomplish. If you want to say it isnt fair then why shouldnt a cow or a donkey also complain saying it isnt fair that it isnt a human? You wont understand G-d's ways with simple logic.
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When I read the Tanach (Tanach), I haven't seen where it applies just to Jews. In fact, I recall reading that salvation is for the Jews, meaning that only people who converted and joined the Israelites got to heaven. Ruth is a good example.
Noah?, Hanuch (taken to heaven without dieng). Also Misrashim talking about even Ismaelites in heaven.
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Also their are different levels of heaven. Jews are usually judged more and stricter, but have a greater chance being in a higher level in the next world. Everything is about what you do, the more you do the greater you get. Its even said that if one friend sees his friend in the next world and that friend did 1 mitzva more than his friend he will be in a much much higher level.
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Yes, the other so called streams are all man made. They are from the eruv rav, and no it isnt being arrogant, at situations like these one needs to tell the truth and even crush the opponents if possible.
Oh my gosh. Talk about self-righteousness going on.
The Reform and Conservative movements are from the Eruv Rav? (Another concept which is strikingly like the "boogey man".) The multitudes that went out from Egypt along with the Israelites intermarried with the Israelites and BECAME Israelites and Jews.
There was no "keeping the bloodline pure." Give me a break.
And as for being man-made...the explanation given about the Torah She'Baal Peh certainly sounded like much of it "expanded upon etc. by each generation" sounds pretty man-made to me.
There are plenty of rules and ideas from the Kosher laws given by HaShem vs. those "expanded upon" by the rabbis, to the drek in the Kabbalah that are pretty man-made. The idea that we are "re-incarnated" is pure drek and is not from the Torah She'Bichsav. If the Torah She'Baal Peh doesn't agree with the written Torah...then one or the other is not correct. I choose to believe what I've read in the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings...but re-incarnation? That's Judaism?
More like...Zoroastrianism...and stuff from religions that Avraham Avinu left behind when HaShem called him.
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The Kabbalah of the Zohar is controversial and isn't accepted by all Orthodox people ever since it came out several hundred years ago and there was a big debate among the rationalists vs. the Kabbalists, reincarnation is one of these things that is controversial. Many things you say are said mainly out of ignorance. It is obvious in the written Torah that an Oral Law was also given. For example, how do you explain when it says "make Tzizzit on the corners of your garments" and "tie them for a sign on your hands and for a symbol between your eyes", the written Torah doesn't explain what Tefillin and Tzizit actually are. Only the Oral Law explains these things, and there are several other examples. The Oral Law never contradicts the written Law, it supplements it and explains the written Law, and is a very beautiful thing. It is the foundation of Judaism which is the transmission of Torah from generation to generation from parent to child and is why Judaism still exists for over 3000 years. The Talmud always and must gives sources in the written Torah for every statement of the Rabbis and if any statement would ever contradict what is stated in the written Torah then it is rejected. The reform and conservative don't understand this chain of tradition that made Judaism what it was since the days of our forefathers and it is why their grandchildren marry non Jews,why the majority of conservative synagagues can't even get 10 people together on Sabbath and they are all closing and dying out. Soon there will be no more reform or conservative Jews left, since they are all disappearing. That's what happens when you make a mockery out of the Torah and make up your own religion.
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Also their are different levels of heaven. Jews are usually judged more and stricter, but have a greater chance being in a higher level in the next world. Everything is about what you do, the more you do the greater you get. Its even said that if one friend sees his friend in the next world and that friend did 1 mitzva more than his friend he will be in a much much higher level.
Can I ask where this idea of multiple levels of heaven appears in the tanakh?
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Also their are different levels of heaven. Jews are usually judged more and stricter, but have a greater chance being in a higher level in the next world. Everything is about what you do, the more you do the greater you get. Its even said that if one friend sees his friend in the next world and that friend did 1 mitzva more than his friend he will be in a much much higher level.
Can I ask where this idea of multiple levels of heaven appears in the tanakh?
The Tanakh doesnt talk much about the next world, you need the Talmud and Kabbalah to explain everything. But it comes from the principle of you get what you earn. The more you work in this world the greater you will recieve in the next.
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The Kabbalah of the Zohar is controversial and isn't accepted by all Orthodox people
name me groups that dont accept it. very little minority (a few people from Yemen (a part- majority from their accept it also).
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Ah...
You need the Talmud...which is basically the rabbis discussing and "expanding" upon what was definitely from Moshe...and you need the Kabbalah, that mysticism which some claim started in the 10th century BCE, though there is no evidence to back up the claim...that mysticism that comes from books like those that comprise the Zohar, the Bahir and Heichalot. That mysticism that was esoteric knowledge "hidden" by the masters because they feared the regular Jew unsupervised and un-"guided" might go off and practice things that are forbidden and wrong.
(Why they would HAVE knowledge in the first place that might lead the masses astray unless strictly meted out by those with "greater" understanding is not truly explained. Seems to me Judaism is based on MASS revelation...I.E. HaShem at Sina where G-d plainly spells out His covenant with the Children of Israel. Not the writings of a man named Shimon bar Yochai who was "inspired" whilst hiding in a cave with his son.)
No, in point of fact I can think of only one other person who received "revelation" while hiding in a cave and that was Mohammed.
Bleh...
Hokey religions ain't no match for a blaster at your side kid.
What we need is something that definitely came from HaShem...the Tanach. The Kabbalah? It's a work that came out in Medieval Spain. To one man who published it. How that can be considered canon on the same level as the Tanach is beyond me.
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to the drek in the Kabbalah that are pretty man-made. The idea that we are "re-incarnated" is pure drek and is not from the Torah She'Bichsav. If the Torah She'Baal Peh doesn't agree with the written Torah...then one or the other is not correct. I choose to believe what I've read in the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings...but re-incarnation? That's Judaism?
Firs of all dont be another "drek" insulting the Rabbis. You have no knowledge of the Torah, and out of your stupidity insult our Sages. Second of all where in the Tanack did you read that their is any contradiction?
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you told me that you will listin to the lectures I have posted, please go ahead and then come here and argue.
for starters here you go:
http://www.kolyakov.org/rav_mizrachi_divine_information_en.html
- Proof that the Written and Oral Torah is Divine.
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as far as yeminites- I dont think they still have more than 1 wife, but when they came to Israel the ones who were allready married were allowed to remain soo, but later generations stoped.
Not true. They haven't stopped.
I know two Yemenites that have multiple wives.
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Seems to me Judaism is based on MASS revelation...I.E. HaShem at Sina where G-d plainly spells out His covenant with the Children of Israel. Not the writings of a man named Shimon bar Yochai who was "inspired" whilst hiding in a cave with his son.
True, the Ten Commandments were said in front of everyone with G-d's own voice.
But the rest of the Torah went through Moses. No one else heard it. Just him.
If you refuse to believe prophecy that was not mass revelation. You have to throw out the rest of the Written Torah as well.
Do you beleive Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel?
None of their propecies were mass revelation.
Do you beleive them?
No, in point of fact I can think of only one other person who received "revelation" while hiding in a cave and that was Mohammed.
That is really insulting.
To compare Rabbi Shimon to that filthy Arab dog is a travesty.
Take it back.
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as far as yeminites- I dont think they still have more than 1 wife, but when they came to Israel the ones who were allready married were allowed to remain soo, but later generations stoped.
Not true. They haven't stopped.
I know two Yemenites that have multiple wives.
Good for them. I know its halahically recognized but is it recognized by the state? (for financial purposes.)
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Seems to me Judaism is based on MASS revelation...I.E. HaShem at Sina where G-d plainly spells out His covenant with the Children of Israel. Not the writings of a man named Shimon bar Yochai who was "inspired" whilst hiding in a cave with his son.
True, the Ten Commandments were said in front of everyone with G-d's own voice.
But the rest of the Torah went through Moses. No one else heard it. Just him.
If you refuse to believe prophecy that was not mass revelation. You have to throw out the rest of the Written Torah as well.
Do you beleive Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel?
None of their propecies were mass revelation.
Do you beleive them?
No, in point of fact I can think of only one other person who received "revelation" while hiding in a cave and that was Mohammed.
That is really insulting.
To compare Rabbi Shimon to that filthy Arab dog is a travesty.
Take it back.
The only thing Mohammed heard in the cave was the bleating of the goats he was hanging out with.
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I want any bashing of the Talmud to stop immediately.
G-d help us. Shame on any Jew who says such horrible things about the Oral Torah. It is only done out of ignorance.
I don't believe it is bashing the Torah She'Baal Peh to say that I do not see it as important as the Torah She'Bichsav Jeff. Also, I made clear that the things I said were purely my opinion. I believe that the Talmud has value. I do not believe it came completely from HaShem.
I have a number of reasons for this, and if you go back and read through this thread, you will see what I am talking about.
Also, to Tzvi...
I went and listened to the lecture by Rav Mizrachi at:
http://www.kolyakov.org/rav_mizrachi_divine_information_en.html
I thought it was excellent. There were a few things that I still have problems with however.
1. I already believe in G-d...so the beginning of the program was irrelevant to me. (I agreed with and knew many of the things Rav Mizrachi was discussing.)
However, the problem I still have is this:
Rav Mizrachi mentioned that "How could Jews from Poland, Syria, Spain etc. all come to Israel and all have the same traditions and all have the same Torah She'Baal Peh as well as Torah She'Bichsav if it was not without error etc."
Now, this is simple. The ancestors of those Jews were all exiled from Israel...even the ones that went to Babylon and eventually went elsewhere had the Talmud already. So it is no wonder that the descendants had the same traditions even though they came from different nations.
But as to whether the Torah She'Baal Peh came directly from Moshe, and thus from HaShem?
Why then is the subject matter of the Babylonian Talmud different in significant ways from that of the Yerushalmi Talmud? Wouldn't the two be the same? (Obviously they were compiled at different times, but why does the Babylonian Talmud omit certain of the laws from the Orders Zeraim? Are they not all from Moshe? )
Also...
To judeanoncapta,
I have to say your point about the Prophets not exactly being Mass Revelation is a good one. And yes, I do believe what they had to say came from HaShem. So, I will have to rethink the notion that someone else, during the Middle Ages could not also have been a prophet of sorts.
(and yes, I take back the statement about Rabbi Shimon being like Mohammed in any way.)
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Please do not speak such terrible things about the Talmud. Do you not know that our enemies have used these very words as an excuse to destroy the Jewish people? The only Judaism in existence today is Rabbinical Judaism. The Torah commands us to listen to the sages (Rabbis) of each generation. Perhaps this audio will help explain. Tzvi Ben Roshel's link is also excellent.
The Oral Law (Talmud) – Part 1
More than 3,300 years ago, God transmitted to Moses both the Written and Oral Law. What is the Oral Law and why was it transmitted that way? Some claim that although the Written Law is the word of God, the Oral Law was a mischievous invention of the Rabbis. Is this claim really true or is the Oral Law divinely inspired?
http://outreachjudaism.org/mp3/Oral%20Law%201.mp3 (http://outreachjudaism.org/mp3/Oral%20Law%201.mp3)
The Oral Law (Talmud) - Part 2
What is the evidence for the Oral Law? What does the Bible really say? Rabbi Singer answers these questions and explores some of Judaism's most remarkable teachings in this closing segment on the Oral Law.
http://outreachjudaism.org/mp3/Oral%20Law%202.mp3 (http://outreachjudaism.org/mp3/Oral%20Law%202.mp3)
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"why does the Babylonian Talmud omit certain of the laws from the Orders Zeraim?"
That deals with the agriculture of the land in Israel. The Babylonian Talmud was in the exile and all the laws of land in Israel has allready been written down in Jerusalem Talmud.
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Please do not speak such terrible things about the Talmud. Do you not know that our enemies have used these very words as an excuse to destroy the Jewish people? The only Judaism in existence today is Rabbinical Judaism. The Torah commands us to listen to the sages (Rabbis) of each generation. Perhaps this audio will help explain. Tzvi Ben Roshel's link is also excellent.
The Oral Law (Talmud) – Part 1
More than 3,300 years ago, G-d transmitted to Moses both the Written and Oral Law. What is the Oral Law and why was it transmitted that way? Some claim that although the Written Law is the word of G-d, the Oral Law was a mischievous invention of the Rabbis. Is this claim really true or is the Oral Law divinely inspired?
http://outreachjudaism.org/mp3/Oral%20Law%201.mp3 (http://outreachjudaism.org/mp3/Oral%20Law%201.mp3)
The Oral Law (Talmud) - Part 2
What is the evidence for the Oral Law? What does the Bible really say? Rabbi Singer answers these questions and explores some of Judaism's most remarkable teachings in this closing segment on the Oral Law.
http://outreachjudaism.org/mp3/Oral%20Law%202.mp3 (http://outreachjudaism.org/mp3/Oral%20Law%202.mp3)
That's true.
Thanks, jeffguy.
These are the two best shiurim about the existence and proof of the Oral Torah that I have ever heard.
Please, dawtreader. Listen to these and I would love to hear your thoughts.
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Tzvi all the Rationalists didn't believe in the absolutism of the Zohar including such prominant people as Rashi's grandson and other prominent Sages of his era who were followers of the Rambam. Rabbi Leone di Modena of the 17th century and Rabbi Yaakov Emden of the 18th century wrote that parts of the Kabalah was heretical, and the Yeminites reject the Zohar. Someone told me that they talked to R' Kahane Zs'l about the Zohar and he said that he was unsure whether it really came from R' Shimon Bar Yochai so R' Kahane was a rationalist and not a Kabbalist just as Chaim claims. I don't believe that the Zohar has the authority people give it, it is one among many opinions written by prominent Rabbis (but this Rabbi outright lied and said he copied it from R' Shimon bar Yochai when he wrote it himself) and is not absolute, and I as a rationalist don't agree with some of the Kabalah of the Zohar; some parts in my view are actually heretical; but I do admit that there are good things to be learned too from it. You are right though in that in this day and age, most orthodox accept the Zohar as being written by R' Shimon Bar Yochai and accept it as a Talmudic authority unfortunitely.
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Please, dawtreader. Listen to these and I would love to hear your thoughts.
Jeffguy and Judeanoncapta I will listen to the links provided and then let you know what I think.
Jeff, I am not intending to use any kind of arguments used by those who hate Jews. There are just things I have thought of for myself, which seriously give me pause.
Also, you are mistaken. Rabbinical Judaism is not the only Judaism in existence today. There are also Karaite Jews who live in Israel and in the USA. (I am not one of them. I was born and raised Conservative.)
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the karaites are probably not even Jews (they go by the father of who is a Jew) + they are too few and completly irrelevent.
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Karaites are the most hilarious liars on planet earth.
They claim that our interpretations depart from the text, then the try to sell you on their abib calendar which departs from the text more than anything I have ever seen in the Talmud.
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So, I have listened to the first lecture by Toviah Singer.
I think I actually do have a greater respect for the Torah She'Baal Peh now than I did before. I still don't see everything in the Talmud as inspired by HaShem. Perhaps some....
Also...I found Singer's constant jabs at Christians and Messianic Jews tiresome. I would much rather have just listened to his evidence and teaching on the subject of the Torah She'Baal Peh.
I am not concerned with Christians or Messianic Jews. I am concerned with whether the Torah She'Baal Peh is actually from HaShem, and what proof there is of it.
Anyways....
Otherwise I enjoyed listening to the lecture and as I said, I do have a greater respect for it now than I had before.
As for the Karaites, Maimonides holds (Hilchot Mamrim 3:3) that most of the Karaites and others who claim to deny the "teaching of the mouth" are not to be held accountable for their errors in the law because they are led into error by their parents and are thus referred to as a tinok she'nishba, or a captive baby.
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Let me add a little more (or maybe a lot more) because I think this is interesting and I'd like to settle this debate.
You can't celebrate any Jewish holidays if you don't have the Talmud. When are they? How do you observe them? How does the calendar actually work?
You can't eat kosher if you don't have the Talmud. How do you obtain kosher meat? Deuteronomy 12 states "you shall kill of your herd and of your flock which G-d has given you, as I have commanded you," but where is the earlier commandment? It's not there.
When the Torah says on the seventh day you shouldn't work, what does that mean? Does it mean you can't do whatever your occupation is? Or does it mean more? Can you dress yourself? Peel an orange? What is work? I mean, it's a serious penalty to break Sabbath. Certainly, G-d is fair and just.
A baby must be circumcised on the eighth day according to Genesis 17:12. What if the eighth day falls out on the sabbath? Which commandment is more important?
The Passover sacrifice must be brought by every Jew on the day before Passover. What happens if that day falls on the Sabbath? I mean SURELY, slaughtering and offering a sacrifice is work. Which takes precedence? The sabbath or the paschal sacrifice?
Torah refers to a man and wife mostly using the term "took" as in when a man takes a woman as a wife. But how is this accomplished? Does the man simply say "I'm taking you as my wife" and that's it? What exactly needs to be done?
Or how does one convert to Judaism? What are the rules? Or just how does one fulfill the biblical commandments of circumcision in Genesis 17:10-14? How much and where do you cut in circumcision? This isn't in the Torah.
I mean, how do you even READ the Torah without the Talmud? There are no vowels or spaces between the words in the original Hebrew text. How do you know how to read the text of the Bible? In the Kuzari (I highly recommend reading this AMAZING book) Rabbi Yehudah HaLevi states simply that it is impossible to read and understand the words of the bible without a tradition regarding the vowelization and punctuation of the words.
When the Torah in Leviticus 3:17 "It is a law for all time throughout the ages, in all your settlements: you must not eat any fat or any blood", what exactly is fat? Are there different types of animal fat? I mean, is it possible to remove any trace of fat on a peice of meat?
In Exodus 16:29, it says "Let no man leave his place on the seventh day" to what place is this referring? Does it mean his home, his property, his neighborhood, his city, or his country? Isaiah 66:23 says "It shall be that at every New Moon and on every sabbath all mankind will come to bow down before Me - said the L-rd" which implies that people will leave their homes on the sabbath and go to worship Hashem. Evidently, Isaiah did not understand this verse in Exodus or was there something more to it?
How about the fringes in Numbers 15:38-39? Will just any fringes do? And how about booths in Leviticus 23:42? What is a booth? There is not enough detail in the biblical directive to know how to fulfill these commandments properly.
I mean... if someone throws away the Talmud, then they have to create a new religion. Is this what G-d wanted? Or is it more likely that in Hashem's magnificent and infinite wisdom, He would tell Moses what the details were to pass down to all generations and eventually this became the Talmud?
I'm not even getting into the different Jews that were separated in remote areas for more than a thousand years and when they were found, their details match almost exactly. Or how the details of the Talmud make so much sense that it is hard to imagine that it's logic is wrong... or how the Talmud knew thing in science that we have only found in the last 100 years.
The more a person studies the Talmud... the more amazing and mind blowing it becomes!
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Good points, Jeffguy.
The reason christians have such diametrically opposed sects and confusion about their scriptures is that they have NO TALMUD to explain how it all works. It seems to me that without Talmud, Judaism wouldn't have survived diaspora. If it did, it would have fragmented into 1,000 different sects all having no resemblence at all to Torah Judaism.