JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rubystars on December 04, 2014, 02:06:10 PM
-
I know some of you believe that sex outside of marriage is technically ok for Gentiles but Christians believe it's wrong for us and Jews believe it's wrong for Jews to have sex outside of marriage. And yet people seem to completely ignore this and do it anyway.
I'm very upset with one of my family members who has told me that she wants to continue to have sex outside of marriage even though she has no intention of marrying anybody.
I feel like God will judge her for this.
Why do so many people who say they believe in the moral rules of the Bible violate this very simple rule?
-
Because when your family member or someone else who is together with the guy they are technically "married" together, and if they are separated than they are "divorced".
Perhaps (and this idea just came to my head) the exception would be if someone is legally married to another person AND They are not living together (are separated) and she goes and sleeps with someone else it would also be considered as adultery because one of the laws of Noah is to make civil courts and laws for society. In this situation she would still be married to the other person thus be considered to have cheated as well and subject to the punishments.
in Ishus 1:1 Rambam states that "once the Torah was given, the Jews were commanded that when a man desires to marry a woman, he must acquire her as a wife in the presence of witnesses."
-
I have heard that if you have sex with someone else you are spiritually bound to that person as if you were married, but I still believe that someone actually needs to have an actual marriage before they have sex where they declare themselves as husband and wife publicly to their community.
I believe that having sex outside of marriage is a sinful act which can send someone to hell if they don't repent of it.
-
Do you mean, it's not ok for an unmarried person to have sex?
Let me ask you this, most people wouldn't buy a car before they take it to a test ride, how then can you expect them to marry someone without a 'test run'?
-
Oh and one more thing- it's not a simple rule at all, for 99% of men at least. Jewish men are also not supposed to masturbate by the way. So ideally from the day puberty kicks in, until the day they marry, they are not suppose to have any sexual experience. It is a fine ideal, but a biological impossibility. Judaism recognizes this and offers ways for men to repent for such avera.
It's a philosophical and spiritual question whether to consider sex out of wedlock as sinful, but at any rate the reality it is biologically impossible to expect everybody to adhere to that rule.
-
I know some of you believe that sex outside of marriage is technically ok for Gentiles but Christians believe it's wrong for us and Jews believe it's wrong for Jews to have sex outside of marriage. And yet people seem to completely ignore this and do it anyway.
I'm very upset with one of my family members who has told me that she wants to continue to have sex outside of marriage even though she has no intention of marrying anybody.
I feel like God will judge her for this.
Why do so many people who say they believe in the moral rules of the Bible violate this very simple rule?
Don't get me wrong but this is not just a very simple rule specially not in the 21st century. Let's be honest.
-
Do you mean, it's not ok for an unmarried person to have sex?
Let me ask you this, most people wouldn't buy a car before they take it to a test ride, how then can you expect them to marry someone without a 'test run'?
Is a women a car for you?
These are 2 different issues. In the Torah once it was given you must marry her before "testing" her out. If you don't like her after marriage you can always get a divorce.
In this case it is definitely serious. + Would you mind if the one you finally agree is good for you also was "tested out" before by different men? If you tested others out, should your partner (or future partner) also have done the same thing before marriage with different men as well?
-
Is a women a car for you?
These are 2 different issues. In the Torah once it was given you must marry her before "testing" her out. If you don't like her after marriage you can always get a divorce.
In this case it is definitely serious. + Would you mind if the one you finally agree is good for you also was "tested out" before by different men? If you tested others out, should your partner (or future partner) also have done the same thing before marriage with different men as well?
And what if you marry a women or a men and the rest of your live you have terrible sex because you didn't know how he or she is in bed? Something to think of? ;D
-
And what if you marry a women or a men and the rest of your live you have terrible sex because you didn't know how he or she is in bed? Something to think of? ;D
So get a divorce.
You don't know many things. You don't know if your wife can get cancer in a few years, or get hit by a car or anything else. You still take that chance don't you?
-
So get a divorce.
You don't know many things. You don't know if your wife can get cancer in a few years, or get hit by a car or anything else. You still take that chance don't you?
So you divorce her because the sex is bad.... You are a terrible men lol. I prefer the 'car' thing. So first marry her, then throw her away like dirt. Weird.
-
I don't have a problem with used merchandise as long as it is in good condition.
To me sex should not be such a big issue. I don't think not being good in bed is grounds for divorce either, not to me at least. The point is I don't think it is good to be too uptight about it, people don't deserve to develop anxiety disorder over it.
Is a women a car for you?
These are 2 different issues. In the Torah once it was given you must marry her before "testing" her out. If you don't like her after marriage you can always get a divorce.
In this case it is definitely serious. + Would you mind if the one you finally agree is good for you also was "tested out" before by different men? If you tested others out, should your partner (or future partner) also have done the same thing before marriage with different men as well?
-
So you divorce her because the sex is bad.... You are a terrible men lol. I prefer the 'car' thing. So first marry her, then throw her away like dirt. Weird.
Who said like dirt? I was responding to what you claimed and said earlier. Again, if the couple is Jewish they should be married first before relations. Otherwise she is like a prostitute. What do you suggest instead? To use her and then throw her like dirt instead? At least her dignity is preserved in that she actually got married and goes according to the law.
For non-Jews the only possibility is that since it is not part of the law, neither of the 7 Noahide laws, nor the laws of the country, they technically are not obligated to get "married" in the official sense (with a contract etc.) but they still are married as long as they are together. And their is no punishment involved either. In the Torah if they are Jewish I believe they can get lashes, + other issues involved as mst likely she had her period and didn't go to Mikwah either (so its more serious on top of that).
-
How about getting married at a very young age just so the guy could have guilt-free sex, does that sound like a good recipe for happy marriage? Because in reality, it is a major reason why many religious guys get married as soon as possible.
-
How about getting married at a very young age just so the guy could have guilt-free sex, does that sound like a good recipe for happy marriage? Because in reality, it is a major reason why many religious guys get married as soon as possible.
I think there is nothing wrong with this IF the couple have done their homework and are truly compatible with each other.
-
I know some of you believe that sex outside of marriage is technically ok for Gentiles but Christians believe it's wrong for us and Jews believe it's wrong for Jews to have sex outside of marriage. And yet people seem to completely ignore this and do it anyway.
I'm very upset with one of my family members who has told me that she wants to continue to have sex outside of marriage even though she has no intention of marrying anybody.
I feel like God will judge her for this.
Why do so many people who say they believe in the moral rules of the Bible violate this very simple rule?
Rubystars someone who behaves like this is not a real Christian (or Jew). They have made their bed, let God deal with them.
-
The difference between animals and humans is that humans can control their desires. By doing so..and curbing premarital sex (a common example of sex outside of marriage) and saving it for his/her spouse and only her/him, it becomes a much more holier thing..which is a heck of a lot better than the other way....this is just putting morality aside...
So, it is in the best interest, for the sake of this person's soul, that he/she act humanly and not animalistically...it's not just about heaven and hell and kosher and unkosher...
-
Oye...test driving a human being...yikes!!!
Forget about the biological excuse..it's true..men and women, when they hit puberty, want to do things sexually including masturbate etc etc etc..
But human being are above the biological. We have souls. We are supposed to control biological acts and elevate them to holier acts..so for sex, it's marriage. And when you love the spouse with real love, test driving becomes irrelevant because all you will care about is how to pleasure your spouse and hopefully vice versa..and through growing old together, you will both figure out what works and how to use the equipment.
So test driving is irrelevant..
-
Don't get me wrong i think its a fantastic thing when you don't have sex before marriage i just believe it's something that is dying out....
-
Don't get me wrong i think its a fantastic thing when you don't have sex before marriage i just believe it's something that is dying out....
So is believing in Gd. Does it mean it's ok?
Jews were dying out for 2000 years..does that mean we should stop being Jewish?
-
So is believing in Gd. Does it mean it's ok?
Jews were dying out for 2000 years..does that mean we should stop being Jewish?
No i don't say that. I say that Jews, Christians etc are forgetting about this traditional things, what is a bad thing, but i think its the time we live in. Don't you think?
-
How about getting married at a very young age just so the guy could have guilt-free sex, does that sound like a good recipe for happy marriage? Because in reality, it is a major reason why many religious guys get married as soon as possible.
Its actually better than most other marriages. Whoever has the opportunity should do so.
-
Well it is a two edged sword unfortunately. Some people who have had enough pre marital sex can think clearly with their heads instead of hormones on who to marry. Marriage shouldn't just be about sex.
But then again, if one dated someone to marry them without having sex until they marry even if not a virgin is the second best thing.
I'm not sure if marrying so young is so smart. But then again it depends on the culture of that individual. In today's western society, secular young people should not get married so quickly.
-
If both partners are virgins, when they get married, they don't have prior experiences so they can't complain about "being bad in bed".
For me teenagers having sex outside of marriage is just the same as adults. Adults that tell teenagers not to have sex are no better if they themselves do it without being married. Age is not the issue. Teenagers can get married if they are past Bar/Bat Mitzvah age.
Why would any one want to have sex without being married? It always seemed trashy to me.
-
If both partners are virgins, when they get married, they don't have prior experiences so they can't complain about "being bad in bed".
For me teenagers having sex outside of marriage is just the same as adults. Adults that tell teenagers not to have sex are no better if they themselves do it without being married. Age is not the issue. Teenagers can get married if they are past Bar/Bat Mitzvah age.
Why would any one want to have sex without being married? It always seemed trashy to me.
Once you are an adult and married with kids and have a moral attitude, yes it is very trashy.
-
Do you mean, it's not ok for an unmarried person to have sex?
Let me ask you this, most people wouldn't buy a car before they take it to a test ride, how then can you expect them to marry someone without a 'test run'?
If somebody has never had sex before except for the person that they marry, then they have no basis of comparison. They should decide, based on compatibility with that person in other ways, whether or not they want to spend their life with that person. Then the two of them can learn how to please each other physically after marriage.
-
To me it makes more sense to first try out as many aspects of being married (parenthood is major exception) before actually entering into that huge commitment.
If somebody has never had sex before except for the person that they marry, then they have no basis of comparison. They should decide, based on compatibility with that person in other ways, whether or not they want to spend their life with that person. Then the two of them can learn how to please each other physically after marriage.
-
To me it makes more sense to first try out as many aspects of being married (parenthood is major exception) before actually entering into that huge commitment.
So basically you're saying that you know it's wrong according to the Bible, but you're going to plan do it anyway and then repent of it. Don't you think a repentance has to be sincere and heartfelt? If you think there's nothing really wrong with it, then true repentance is impossible, and also if you think that, it means that you are wiser than God as far as what is right and wrong.
You say sex outside of marriage is ok but parenthood is not. You can't guarantee that you won't get a woman pregnant if you have sex with her. All methods of birth control have a failure rate, even if you layer them. A condom could break and you might think you're still ok because the woman is on birth control, but birth control also has a failure rate.
As for living in the modern times making it more difficult, that just means you're probably too enmeshed into the world and its culture rather than looking to God for guidance and what He would have you do.
-
I don't believe it is wrong to have sex just for the fun of it either. And in the case of serious couples who think about marriage, for some of them, it is better to try things out in advance. It's not part of my moral believes.
So basically you're saying that you know it's wrong according to the Bible, but you're going to plan do it anyway and then repent of it. Don't you think a repentance has to be sincere and heartfelt? If you think there's nothing really wrong with it, then true repentance is impossible, and also if you think that, it means that you are wiser than God as far as what is right and wrong.
You say sex outside of marriage is ok but parenthood is not. You can't guarantee that you won't get a woman pregnant if you have sex with her. All methods of birth control have a failure rate, even if you layer them. A condom could break and you might think you're still ok because the woman is on birth control, but birth control also has a failure rate.
As for living in the modern times making it more difficult, that just means you're probably too enmeshed into the world and its culture rather than looking to God for guidance and what He would have you do.
-
To me it makes more sense to first try out as many aspects of being married (parenthood is major exception) before actually entering into that huge commitment.
Why can't a dating couple have frank sexual discussions about their future together?
-
I don't believe it is wrong to have sex just for the fun of it either. And in the case of serious couples who think about marriage, for some of them, it is better to try things out in advance. It's not part of my moral believes.
And if you are in love but the sex isn't good you break up?! Is that logical?
-
Do you mean, it's not ok for an unmarried person to have sex?
Let me ask you this, most people wouldn't buy a car before they take it to a test ride, how then can you expect them to marry someone without a 'test run'?
So...Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
-
Ruby:
If your sister was raised that sex before marriage is wrong, then she is going against her conscience and also the beliefs of your family--she is hurting her own soul.
Making love (sex) should be preserved for a man and a woman who intend to spend the rest of their lives together, married. They should wait for the wedding day.
Thats the right way.
-
I know some of you believe that sex outside of marriage is technically ok for Gentiles but Christians believe it's wrong for us and Jews believe it's wrong for Jews to have sex outside of marriage. And yet people seem to completely ignore this and do it anyway.
I'm very upset with one of my family members who has told me that she wants to continue to have sex outside of marriage even though she has no intention of marrying anybody.
I feel like God will judge her for this.
Why do so many people who say they believe in the moral rules of the Bible violate this very simple rule?
They want to justify their lack of impulse control.
-
R.S is correct. In Orthodox Christianity sex outside of marriage is forbidden. Also, if you do not go church for 3 weeks and you are not sick or something you are automatically excluded from the church. This is how strict rules are. But, like SuperMantila said, very few people play by the rules (including me). We can see the results..broken families, depression, suicides..
I will tell you this..in real life people I know broke the rule..he was a priest..bad, very bad thing happened, the worse possible..
-
Ruby:
If your sister was raised that sex before marriage is wrong, then she is going against her conscience and also the beliefs of your family--she is hurting her own soul.
Making love (sex) should be preserved for a man and a woman who intend to spend the rest of their lives together, married. They should wait for the wedding day.
Thats the right way.
Agreed.
I also don't think God would ask people to do something impossible.
One thing I don't understand about the "test drive" argument is that all men have the same parts as other men and all women have the same parts as other women unless there was some kind of surgery or injury. Even if they vary a little by size or shape they're basically the same. It's how those parts are used that determine "good" or "bad" sex and so I would think that as a married couple they would learn what the other person liked and didn't like and learn how to please each other.
-
R.S is correct. In Orthodox Christianity sex outside of marriage is forbidden. Also, if you do not go church for 3 weeks and you are not sick or something you are automatically excluded from the church. This is how strict rules are. But, like SuperMantila said, very few people play by the rules (including me). We can see the results..broken families, depression, suicides..
I will tell you this..in real life people I know broke the rule..he was a priest..bad, very bad thing happened, the worse possible..
I don't believe that everyone has to go to church but I do think that it's a good thing if someone does have a church family they are a good fit for because fellowship is important.
Sex outside of marriage does have a lot of bad consequences for society though. Children growing up without fathers, abortion, STDs, and adultery are all examples of what can happen due to sex outside the context of marriage. Someone you meet at a bar for example can tell you they are single when they are really married. If you go and have sex with that person you are harming that person's wife or husband.
Also a lot of the more extreme things are also technically examples of sex outside of the context of marriage between an adult man and adult woman: homosexual activity, pedophilia, zoophilia, etc. Basically any deviant sexual activity is outside of the context of marriage between a man and a woman.
I think that engaging in homosexual activity is not any worse spiritually than having sex with someone of the opposite sex outside the context of marriage and that the penalty would be the same.
-
I think that engaging in homosexual activity is not any worse spiritually than having sex with someone of the opposite sex outside the context of marriage and that the penalty would be the same.
Are you serious? Homosexual activity is a capital crime while having sex outside of marriage is not, as long as the woman is single.
The Torah calls homosexual activity an abomination. It does not use that term for other forbidden sexual relations. Adultery and incest are considered natural sexual relations but with a forbidden partner. Homosexuality is completely unnatural and abhorrent. See Leviticus 18 and compare how it is described compared with the forbidden sexual relations that come before it. Bestiality is just like homosexuality in that it is unnatural and not normal behavior.
-
It's not a bad idea at all. Of course that can never work with the ultra-orthodox. Some of them don't even get the basic lesson about the birds and the bees until wedding evening. It's not unheard of for the groom or the bride to pass out when they are told how matrimonial duty involves.
Why can't a dating couple have frank sexual discussions about their future together?
-
Actually I mentioned before, I don't think it is a reason enough to break up. My reasoning is more in the line of the other way- that desire to have sex should not be a reason enough to get married, and so it is better to have sex before marriage then enter into marriage prematurely and then regret.
And if you are in love but the sex isn't good you break up?! Is that logical?
-
because for them marriage is a weight they use to meet people to do all they want.
-
Are you serious? Homosexual activity is a capital crime while having sex outside of marriage is not, as long as the woman is single.
The Torah calls homosexual activity an abomination. It does not use that term for other forbidden sexual relations. Adultery and incest are considered natural sexual relations but with a forbidden partner. Homosexuality is completely unnatural and abhorrent. See Leviticus 18 and compare how it is described compared with the forbidden sexual relations that come before it. Bestiality is just like homosexuality in that it is unnatural and not normal behavior.
I believe both are sin, and a very specific kind of sin: sexual sin.
I also believe the wages of sin is death (eternal suffering in hell) unless something is done to remove that sin.
Of course it is more disgusting to engage in homosexual activity but either way it's a sexual sin.
That was a good point you made about the fact that one is a more serious sin than the other though and probably will bring even greater punishment.
-
It's not a bad idea at all. Of course that can never work with the ultra-orthodox. Some of them don't even get the basic lesson about the birds and the bees until wedding evening. It's not unheard of for the groom or the bride to pass out when they are told how matrimonial duty involves.
Not to be disrespectful to their culture but I think that since they are going to have the urges before then usually, they should know what they are so they can resist them better.