JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: chakma613 on August 17, 2007, 10:26:33 AM
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The Gemara(part of the Talmud), states that there is a inhabited star called Maroz, but I don't know much else about it..any thoughts? Personally I think that since it's a star, the life that exists on it must be totally different from the life on Earth, possibly not even carbon-based. Also, the Gemara in mesekta Avodah Zarah says that everyday G-d travels throughout many worlds - why would G-d "visit" other worlds if there was not life on them?
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The Gemara(part of the Talmud), states that there is a inhabited star called Maroz, but I don't know much else about it..any thoughts? Personally I think that since it's a star, the life that exists on it must be totally different from the life on Earth, possibly not even carbon-based. Also, the Gemara in mesekta Avodah Zarah says that everyday G-d travels throughout many worlds - why would G-d "visit" other worlds if there was not life on them?
Maybe they mean the solar system surrounding the star
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When it says G-d travels to the different worlds, I think this is referring to the the four spiritual worlds (Asiyah, Beriah, Yetzirah, and Atzilus).
I could be wrong, though.
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With all the billions of stars, planets and moons out there, the probability of other life forms makes sense just out of mathematical probability alone.
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With all the billions of stars, planets and moons out there, the probability of other life forms makes sense just out of mathematical probability alone.
I happen to agree.
Let me push your thoughts a little... That wouldn't, necessarily, mean that they would have to be made of something we could comprehend. Maybe they are made from energy... perhaps there are beings made from the poles of magnetism, energies we'd know as heat, or even time itself or something in that direction of thinking? Why would Hashem be limited to create only creatures made from the fabric of our world, time, and space? There are infinite numbers of levels and possibilities for life. G-d has no boundaries and I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were an infinite number of creations within the infinite number of possibilities.
And let me take it one step further. One hour here could be a million years somewhere else or an hour somewhere else could be billions of years here... and this is only where time exists! As you approach the center of a black hole (within the event horizon) time continues to slow down forever keeping you from ever making it to the infinite point in the center! Who's to say that entire creations don't come and go in a moment to us? We know in a dream, it can be as years to us in only a few minutes. Who's to say that when we die, that moment our brain shuts down, it isn't like an eternity with Hashem of it's very own? Think about how infinite and awesome this universe is BEYOND just the number of stars or planets.
This is all just theory and some speculation... but it's amazingly deep and interesting to think about.
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With all the billions of stars, planets and moons out there, the probability of other life forms makes sense just out of mathematical probability alone.
I happen to agree.
Let me push your thoughts a little... That wouldn't, necessarily, mean that they would have to be made of something we could comprehend. Maybe they are made from energy... perhaps there are beings made from the poles of magnetism, energies we'd know as heat, or even time itself or something in that direction of thinking? Why would Hashem be limited to create only creatures made from the fabric of our world, time, and space? There are infinite numbers of levels and possibilities for life. G-d has no boundaries and I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were an infinite number of creations within the infinite number of possibilities.
And let me take it one step further. One hour here could be a million years somewhere else or an hour somewhere else could be billions of years here... and this is only where time exists! As you approach the center of a black hole (within the event horizon) time continues to slow down forever keeping you from ever making it to the infinite point in the center! Who's to say that entire creations don't come and go in a moment to us? We know in a dream, it can be as years to us in only a few minutes. Who's to say that when we die, that moment our brain shuts down, it isn't like an eternity with Hashem of it's very own? Think about how infinite and awesome this universe is BEYOND just the number of stars or planets.
This is all just theory and some speculation... but it's amazingly deep and interesting to think about.
You are touching upon theories dealing with other spatial and temporal dimensions. This can turn into a very fascinating thread.
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With all the billions of stars, planets and moons out there, the probability of other life forms makes sense just out of mathematical probability alone.
I happen to agree.
Let me push your thoughts a little... That wouldn't, necessarily, mean that they would have to be made of something we could comprehend. Maybe they are made from energy... perhaps there are beings made from the poles of magnetism, energies we'd know as heat, or even time itself or something in that direction of thinking? Why would Hashem be limited to create only creatures made from the fabric of our world, time, and space? There are infinite numbers of levels and possibilities for life. G-d has no boundaries and I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were an infinite number of creations within the infinite number of possibilities.
And let me take it one step further. One hour here could be a million years somewhere else or an hour somewhere else could be billions of years here... and this is only where time exists! As you approach the center of a black hole (within the event horizon) time continues to slow down forever keeping you from ever making it to the infinite point in the center! Who's to say that entire creations don't come and go in a moment to us? We know in a dream, it can be as years to us in only a few minutes. Who's to say that when we die, that moment our brain shuts down, it isn't like an eternity with Hashem of it's very own? Think about how infinite and awesome this universe is BEYOND just the number of stars or planets.
This is all just theory and some speculation... but it's amazingly deep and interesting to think about.
HaShem can create any form of life out of anything he sees fit. We may be limited by the laws of Earth physics/ biology.....HE ISN'T. :)
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When it says G-d travels to the different worlds, I think this is referring to the the four spiritual worlds (Asiyah, Beriah, Yetzirah, and Atzilus).
I could be wrong, though.
The Gemara in avodah Zarah says how many worlds g-d travels through, it's a lot more than 4, so I doubt it's an allusion to the kabalistic side of it, it's something like 30,000 or more, i dont remember now.
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I can see where they are coming from but its a bit of a worry because it conflicts with the Lords focus on only earth and the people who live on earth...
There has to be something more to it
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The Gemara in avodah Zarah says how many worlds g-d travels through, it's a lot more than 4, so I doubt it's an allusion to the kabalistic side of it, it's something like 30,000 or more, i dont remember now.
Maybe I should have said four "categories" because each is infinite and has levels within itself.
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Playing devil's advocate here, what if intelligent life is found on another planet and they have religions that have no mention of the Old or New Testament , and no references to any Prophets that Jews and Gentiles believe in ?
On a sarcastic note, if they had no concept of islam, beam me up scotty.
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I can see where they are coming from but its a bit of a worry because it conflicts with the Lords focus on only earth and the people who live on earth...
There has to be something more to it
G-d doesn't "focus", that's putting him on a limited level..G-d is beyond space and time, he can certainly handle more than one civilized world
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Playing devil's advocate here, what if intelligent life is found on another planet and they have religions that have no mention of the Old or New Testament , and no references to any Prophets that Jews and Gentiles believe in ?
On a sarcastic note, if they had no concept of islam, beam me up scotty.
That simply wouldnt happen..the Torah is universal, G-d wouldnt create a world devoid of truth
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Interesting topic, I know i'd be freaked out if one day we were visiting mars or something and found the torah or a star of david somewhere on the planet.
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I do too, cosmokramer... I do too.
Even angels... they are beings. They exist but in a different way that we exist.
You know when you do something good for someone and it puts them in a good spirit? And then they effect others and they effect others... maybe even if it's just a smile that puts other in a better mood. To me, I think that is a type of angel (just one type, mind you). It's that effect put forth in the universe that existed but took some type of action to give it power to work. In effect, it exists, effects, and "lives" but doesn't have a tangible body or material. And it takes some of the "mystical" out of the concept and makes it easier to see what one type of angel might be like.
I think about these things often. I truly believe that the Torah gives any person the best possible life for their circumstances and that the benefit is in this world... and by putting it together with science, psychology, and philosophy, it brings a depth that is very fulfilling, interesting, and helpful to the meaning in a person's life.
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The Gemara(part of the Talmud), states that there is a inhabited star called Maroz, but I don't know much else about it..any thoughts? Personally I think that since it's a star, the life that exists on it must be totally different from the life on Earth, possibly not even carbon-based. Also, the Gemara in mesekta Avodah Zarah says that everyday G-d travels throughout many worlds - why would G-d "visit" other worlds if there was not life on them?
I think, since the word really translates as "lights," I don't think it's necessarily physical. It could be purely spiritual, and the "inhabitants" angels. I don't believe Hashem created any physical life outside of Earth.
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The Gemara(part of the Talmud), states that there is a inhabited star called Maroz, but I don't know much else about it..any thoughts? Personally I think that since it's a star, the life that exists on it must be totally different from the life on Earth, possibly not even carbon-based. Also, the Gemara in mesekta Avodah Zarah says that everyday G-d travels throughout many worlds - why would G-d "visit" other worlds if there was not life on them?
I think, since the word really translates as "lights," I don't think it's necessarily physical. It could be purely spiritual, and the "inhabitants" angels. I don't believe Hashem created any physical life outside of Earth.
What purpose to add so many planets then if there is no life outside of our planet? The universe is a very large place. I remember asking a question about alien life on other planets on askmoses.com, I was told that it is possible life exists but if they do, then they would not have free will. Does that mean life on other planets would be equivalent to animal life?
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The Gemara(part of the Talmud), states that there is a inhabited star called Maroz, but I don't know much else about it..any thoughts? Personally I think that since it's a star, the life that exists on it must be totally different from the life on Earth, possibly not even carbon-based. Also, the Gemara in mesekta Avodah Zarah says that everyday G-d travels throughout many worlds - why would G-d "visit" other worlds if there was not life on them?
I think, since the word really translates as "lights," I don't think it's necessarily physical. It could be purely spiritual, and the "inhabitants" angels. I don't believe Hashem created any physical life outside of Earth.
I cannot believe, given the vastness of the universe that we are aware of, the possibility of the parts of the universe that we cannot see being much larger and the possibility of the existence of dimensions that we cannot see, that Earth is the only place that G-d saw fit to create life.
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The Gemara(part of the Talmud), states that there is a inhabited star called Maroz, but I don't know much else about it..any thoughts? Personally I think that since it's a star, the life that exists on it must be totally different from the life on Earth, possibly not even carbon-based. Also, the Gemara in mesekta Avodah Zarah says that everyday G-d travels throughout many worlds - why would G-d "visit" other worlds if there was not life on them?
I think, since the word really translates as "lights," I don't think it's necessarily physical. It could be purely spiritual, and the "inhabitants" angels. I don't believe Hashem created any physical life outside of Earth.
What purpose to add so many planets then if there is no life outside of our planet? The universe is a very large place. I remember asking a question about alien life on other planets on askmoses.com, I was told that it is possible life exists but if they do, then they would not have free will. Does that mean life on other planets would be equivalent to animal life?
Excellent point - if we say that life exists, we perforce have to say that this life has free will(UNLIKE angels), however they could be a type of life totally difffeent from anything we know, maybe even aphysical, or anaphasic(sp?)
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Interesting topic, I know i'd be freaked out if one day we were visiting mars or something and found the torah or a star of david somewhere on the planet.
There is a face there, and Actually I heard the Face on Mars was actually true. Even though NASA tried to 'debunk' it, some guy made a 3d image of it and shot it from different views and it looked like a face in all of them.
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Interesting topic, I know i'd be freaked out if one day we were visiting mars or something and found the torah or a star of david somewhere on the planet.
There is a face there, and Actually I heard the Face on Mars was actually true. Even though NASA tried to 'debunk' it, some guy made a 3d image of it and shot it from different views and it looked like a face in all of them.
I heard that the 'face on mars' has perfectly identical geometry to the spinx in Egypt.
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The face on Mars thing was debunked:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast24may_1.htm
http://www.msss.com/education/facepage/face.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_on_Mars#The_Face_on_Mars
It does look really cool, though.
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Now too really play devils advocate.....
Will they be Jews or Christians ? ;)
Or Muslims ?
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Now too really play devils advocate.....
Will they be Jews or Christians ? ;)
Or Muslims ?
Perhaps their muslims, that's why we haven't found life on other planets is because they blew themselves up.
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Game set and match on that post !!! LOL
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Now too really play devils advocate.....
Will they be Jews or Christians ? ;)
Or Muslims ?
Perhaps their muslims, that's why we haven't found life on other planets is because they blew themselves up.
LOL! Very funny, Cohen!
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The current news raging about the strong possibility of life on Mars has provoked discussion in all circles. The religious implications of the prospect of extraterrestrial life are particularly interesting.
But while we ponder this phenomenon and its many ramifications, there arises an intriguing question: Are there any references in ancient wisdoms and sacred texts to life on other planets? Perhaps more importantly: Is the search for extraterrestrial life just an exercise in curiosity, or is it important to our lives as human beings on this Earth?
It may seem surprising, but on one rare occasion the Grand Rebbe of Lubavitch, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, a foremost religious authority and visionary of our times, discussed this issue in detail.
The Rebbe was known for both his intense knowledge of Bible and Talmud and his secular scholarship having graduated Berlin University and the Sorbonne with advanced degrees in the sciences. He often addressed timely events and scientific developments, and in his unique style would explain the personal and practical applications of any given issue.
In the summer of 1969, after the second landing on the moon, the Rebbe addressed the topic of extraterrestrial life. Citing his fundamental belief that the Torah -- the Bible -- is the spiritual blueprint of the universe, the Rebbe explained that delving into the Bible can yield allusions or even direct references to scientific discoveries. After all, science, essentially, uncovers the divine secrets of nature that have lain hidden in existence from the beginning of time.
In the case of extraterrestrial life the Bible clearly refers to its possibility, and even to its actuality. In the book of Judges, chapter 5, the prophetess Devora sings a song of praise to God for helping Barak win his battle against his enemy Sisera. In verse 20 she sings: "The stars in their course fought against Sisera." And then in verse 23 she continues: "Curse Meroz, said the angel of the Lord, curse bitterly its inhabitants, because they did not come to the help of the Lord...against the mighty men."
And who is this Meroz? According to one opinion in the Talmud -- the authoritative oral interpretation of the Biblical texts -- Meroz is a planet (tractate Moed Katan 16a). Accordingly, the "inhabitants" of "Meroz" indicates life on another planet.
The context in which the reference to Meroz is found compels the Talmud to define it as a planet (and not as a neighboring city), as it is preceded by the verse that states "the stars in their course fought against Sisera." Thus, it follows that Meroz refers to a celestial body whose inhabitants did not come to Barak’s aid.
Another issue Rabbi Schneerson addressed was the personal implications should extraterrestrial life be found. In keeping with his message that we must utilize any new discoveries for constructive personal growth, the Rebbe applied this to the search for other life. He predicted that if any extraterrestrial life forms are discovered, they will be life forms other than human. This is based on the Biblical belief that human life, empowered with the ability to choose between good and evil, was bestowed exclusively upon Adam and Eve on Earth. All other creatures follow a "program" inherent in their natural makeup; the laws of nature that (when untouched by human hands) maintain a natural balance. The human race is unique in that it was given free will and given the Torah, God’s word and law, by which to know right from wrong. Indeed, Rabbi Schneerson went on to explain that the human being is the "center" of creation, not necessarily in a spatial sense, but qualitatively: Man has the power to dominate and influence the course of nature, either constructively or destructively. Thus, any discovery of extraterrestrial life only intensifies our responsibility to protect, refine and elevate the entire universe in all its elements -- mineral, vegetable and animal -- and transform them to channels of divine energy by utilizing them for living better and more virtuous lives.
Each person, the Rebbe elaborated, is a microcosm of the entire universe and all its myriad details. Man is a small universe; the universe is a large organism. We are interlinked and interdependent with the world in which we live. And the world is uplifted through our own personal refinement. The larger the magnitude of the cosmos and galaxies, the greater are the opportunities in understanding ourselves. As we pursue the perpetual human quest toward the unknown -- and the new, exciting discoveries that unfold along the way -- the more we are struck by the sheer awe of existence and of the Divine wisdom driving this grand design. And the more this underscores the power entrusted in us: to sanctify the world in which we live -- integrating inner and outer space.
Clearly, humankind will continue to search for other life in the galaxies. It seems that intrinsic to human nature is the innate, compelling drive to know what other life exists besides our own. The Lubavitcher Rebbe’s talk in the summer of ‘69 asks of us to recognize a deeper significance in this never-ending search: How this search -- which stretches back to Biblical times -- should evoke in each of us a greater sensitivity and commitment to life all around us, near and far.
Compiled by Rabbi Simon Jacobson www.Meaningfullife.com
-
The current news raging about the strong possibility of life on Mars has provoked discussion in all circles. The religious implications of the prospect of extraterrestrial life are particularly interesting.
But while we ponder this phenomenon and its many ramifications, there arises an intriguing question: Are there any references in ancient wisdoms and sacred texts to life on other planets? Perhaps more importantly: Is the search for extraterrestrial life just an exercise in curiosity, or is it important to our lives as human beings on this Earth?
It may seem surprising, but on one rare occasion the Grand Rebbe of Lubavitch, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, a foremost religious authority and visionary of our times, discussed this issue in detail.
The Rebbe was known for both his intense knowledge of Bible and Talmud and his secular scholarship having graduated Berlin University and the Sorbonne with advanced degrees in the sciences. He often addressed timely events and scientific developments, and in his unique style would explain the personal and practical applications of any given issue.
In the summer of 1969, after the second landing on the moon, the Rebbe addressed the topic of extraterrestrial life. Citing his fundamental belief that the Torah -- the Bible -- is the spiritual blueprint of the universe, the Rebbe explained that delving into the Bible can yield allusions or even direct references to scientific discoveries. After all, science, essentially, uncovers the divine secrets of nature that have lain hidden in existence from the beginning of time.
In the case of extraterrestrial life the Bible clearly refers to its possibility, and even to its actuality. In the book of Judges, chapter 5, the prophetess Devora sings a song of praise to G-d for helping Barak win his battle against his enemy Sisera. In verse 20 she sings: "The stars in their course fought against Sisera." And then in verse 23 she continues: "Curse Meroz, said the angel of the Lord, curse bitterly its inhabitants, because they did not come to the help of the Lord...against the mighty men."
And who is this Meroz? According to one opinion in the Talmud -- the authoritative oral interpretation of the Biblical texts -- Meroz is a planet (tractate Moed Katan 16a). Accordingly, the "inhabitants" of "Meroz" indicates life on another planet.
The context in which the reference to Meroz is found compels the Talmud to define it as a planet (and not as a neighboring city), as it is preceded by the verse that states "the stars in their course fought against Sisera." Thus, it follows that Meroz refers to a celestial body whose inhabitants did not come to Barak’s aid.
Another issue Rabbi Schneerson addressed was the personal implications should extraterrestrial life be found. In keeping with his message that we must utilize any new discoveries for constructive personal growth, the Rebbe applied this to the search for other life. He predicted that if any extraterrestrial life forms are discovered, they will be life forms other than human. This is based on the Biblical belief that human life, empowered with the ability to choose between good and evil, was bestowed exclusively upon Adam and Eve on Earth. All other creatures follow a "program" inherent in their natural makeup; the laws of nature that (when untouched by human hands) maintain a natural balance. The human race is unique in that it was given free will and given the Torah, G-d’s word and law, by which to know right from wrong. Indeed, Rabbi Schneerson went on to explain that the human being is the "center" of creation, not necessarily in a spatial sense, but qualitatively: Man has the power to dominate and influence the course of nature, either constructively or destructively. Thus, any discovery of extraterrestrial life only intensifies our responsibility to protect, refine and elevate the entire universe in all its elements -- mineral, vegetable and animal -- and transform them to channels of divine energy by utilizing them for living better and more virtuous lives.
Each person, the Rebbe elaborated, is a microcosm of the entire universe and all its myriad details. Man is a small universe; the universe is a large organism. We are interlinked and interdependent with the world in which we live. And the world is uplifted through our own personal refinement. The larger the magnitude of the cosmos and galaxies, the greater are the opportunities in understanding ourselves. As we pursue the perpetual human quest toward the unknown -- and the new, exciting discoveries that unfold along the way -- the more we are struck by the sheer awe of existence and of the Divine wisdom driving this grand design. And the more this underscores the power entrusted in us: to sanctify the world in which we live -- integrating inner and outer space.
Clearly, humankind will continue to search for other life in the galaxies. It seems that intrinsic to human nature is the innate, compelling drive to know what other life exists besides our own. The Lubavitcher Rebbe’s talk in the summer of ‘69 asks of us to recognize a deeper significance in this never-ending search: How this search -- which stretches back to Biblical times -- should evoke in each of us a greater sensitivity and commitment to life all around us, near and far.
Compiled by Rabbi Simon Jacobson www.Meaningfullife.com
Yasher Koach lubab, always good to get the Chabad take on things
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Another EXCELLENT post from Lubab!
Man... I love stuff like that.
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I hope theres no intelligent life on other planets. It'll be better if humans have no competition when we colonize space. We need to Terraform Mars and Venus, imo.