JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: IsraelForever on February 19, 2015, 12:39:31 AM
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His brilliance is astounding, isn't it?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-muslim-cleric-claims-the-earth-is-stationary-and-the-sun-rotates-around-it-10053516.html
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Actually, he is at the center of the universe and the sun rotates around his head and between his ears.
He's got the IQ of a broken table leg.
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Actually, Geocentrism is fully supported by Torah, Chazal and science!
"It is my firm belief that it is the Sun that revolves around the Earth, as I have also declared publicly on various occasions and in discussion with professors specializing in this field of science" (Lubavitcher Rebbe)- "The Earth is established, it cannot be moved" (Tehillim 93).
Go see the new film "The Principle" that provides solid scientific evidence for the Earth being at the center of the universe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8cBvMCucTg
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This is very typpical quranic "wisdom". The level of ignorance even compared to level of scientific knowledge of the day is astounding.
"It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit. " (In fact you can often spot the moon during the day, also, there is this natural phenomenon called 'solar eclipse'...)
Another "miracle" to "confirm" that Muhammad is Allah's messenger:
"Seest thou not that the ships sail through the ocean by the Grace of Allah?- that He may show you of His signs? Verily in this are signs for all who constantly persevere and give thanks."
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran
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Actually, Geocentrism is fully supported by Torah, Chazal and science!
"It is my firm belief that it is the Sun that revolves around the Earth, as I have also declared publicly on various occasions and in discussion with professors specializing in this field of science" (Lubavitcher Rebbe)- "The Earth is established, it cannot be moved" (Tehillim 93).
Go see the new film "The Principle" that provides solid scientific evidence for the Earth being at the center of the universe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8cBvMCucTg
False.
The Torah does not say specifically which it is or which it must be. It does not address the question. And we know the reality from science (heliocentrism) so we do not have to wonder which might be true.
Why dwell on one of the L Rebbe's mistakes ? To make him look bad?
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Nowhere does the Tenach attribute any diurnal or annual motion to the Earth. Yehoshua's Long Day, Chizkiya's Sign, and hundreds of pesukim speak only of its fixity and staticity. The Sun, Moon and stars were created only on the Fourth Day to "be for signs, for festivals and for days and years.... and to illuminate" (Breishis 1) the Earth, which was the first physical object created on the First Day.
The simplest explanation of the zero-velocity result of the 1887 Michelson-Morley experiment and the positive result of the 1925 Michelson-Gale experiment, is that the Sun & the rest of the universe REALLY are going round the Earth: "The Earth is suspended at the center of the universe" (Rambam Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 3).
[/color] "The difference between the heliocentric theory and geocentric theory is one of relative motion only, and that difference has no physical significance. If the Galileo Affair had taken place after Einstein had framed his General Theory, it would have resulted in an even draw out of physical and mathematical necessity” (Sir Fred Hoyle).
Even an atheist like Bertrand Russell admitted: "Whether the Earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors held, the observable phenomena will be EXACTLY THE SAME: a metaphysical assumption has to be made".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kSMNzQ_wzw
And it wasn't just the Lubavitcher Rebbe who held by Geocentrism: the Rambam, the Maharal, the Ma'aseh Tuviya, R.Nachman of Breslov, the Ba'al HaTanya, the Sefer Habris, R.Chaim Kanievsky, R.Aryeh Kaplan, R.Meir Kahane, R.Yitzhak Ginsburgh etc etc never relinquished the Geocentric paradigm, which is fully in accord with current Relativistic thinking, as Einstein himself admitted:
"The struggle so violent in the early days of science between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus is quite meaningless. Either coordinate system could be used with equal justification. The two sentences: 'the Sun is at rest and the Earth moves' or 'the Sun moves and the Earth is at rest' would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different coordinate systems".
And if Relativity should ever be shown to be wrong, then the Geocentric paradigm is no longer a primus inter pares: it actually becomes the favoured model!
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??
anyone been on an airplane?
the earth is round.
there are no monsters and you will not fall off the map.
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Unfortunately Islam twists the Torah with its exaggerated distortions & evil murderousness, and as usual gives True Torah a bad name!
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(https://relitblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/flat-earth-3.jpg)
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The idea that the ancients up to Columbus believed in a Flat Earth is an uncouth myth promulgated in the 1880s by Evolutionists trying to prove their intellectual superiority over previous eras.
The sphericity of the Earth was known to educated men since ancient times, including Chazal: Yerushalmi Avoda Zara 3:1, Avoda Zara 41, Breishis R.63, Bamidbar R.13, Esther R.1, Zohar III:10, Zohar Chadash 1:15. Rava gives the Earth's circumference correctly as 6,000 parsah -- 24,000 miles (Pesachim 94).
Pythagoras, Parmenides, Eudoxus, Plato, Aristotle, Erastosthenes, Euclid, Archimedes, Strato and Ptolemy all knew the Earth to be a globe.
This is not surprising since "the Greeks obtained their knowledge of astronomy from the works of the Bnei Yissachar" (Rambam, Hilchos Kiddush Hachodesh 17). "It is He who sits above the circle of the Earth, and its dwellers are like grasshoppers!" (Yeshaya 40).
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Whatever are the controversies but this muslamic cleric is the most intelligent one among all the muslamic clerics.
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we're getting way off topic here. the point of the OP is that the muslims are dumber than piece of paper.
Don't say the Jews did it too.
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I believe that the Earth IS the center of the universe, but this does not mean it is the center around which everything physically revolves. The issue of 'flat earth' is a no-brainer and the Torah clearly demonstrates that the earth is spherical (and so too all the planets and stars). But Judaism considers Earth and Humanity to be the ultimate design of the Creator and thus we are the center of the Universe (all of creation).
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Their is no center of the universe. Actually either their is no center OR anything you point at is the center.
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Where is the centre of the universe?
There is no centre of the universe! According to the standard theories of cosmology, the universe started with a "Big Bang" about 14 thousand million years ago and has been expanding ever since. Yet there is no centre to the expansion; it is the same everywhere. The Big Bang should not be visualised as an ordinary explosion. The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places, as far as we can tell.
In 1929 Edwin Hubble announced that he had measured the speed of galaxies at different distances from us, and had discovered that the farther they were, the faster they were receding. This might suggest that we are at the centre of the expanding universe, but in fact if the universe is expanding uniformly according to Hubble's law, then it will appear to do so from any vantage point.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/centre.html
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Tag,
From the Jewish perspective the entire Universe was created for one purpose, to be a habitation for mankind, so that the Jewish people could receive the Torah at Sinai. These beliefs come from the Talmud and Midrashim. If you are interested (or anyone for that matter) I could provide links and quotations to support this belief. Again, I am talking about the 'center' being the purpose of creation rather than a physical location.
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Building on what Yerusha brought previously concerning the Rebbes view on this topic:
http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/letters/default_cdo/aid/73253/jewish/The-Wager.htm
In the summer of 1975, an encounter took place between Rabbi F.R., a Lubavitcher chassid, and Mr. A.P., a "modernized" American Jew. Rabbi R. was seeking to influence Mr. P. toward a greater commitment to Torah observance, which the latter dismissed as "archaic" and dismally outdated. In the course of the conversation, Mr. P. said, "Are you telling me that every law and practice mentioned in the Torah, written thousands of years ago, must be accepted at face value today?" "Certainly,” replied Rabbi R. "The Torah is eternal, and is equally pertinent to every day and age." "The Torah states that the sun revolves around the earth," countered Mr. P. "Do you believe that as well?" "Yes, I do," replied Rabbi R. "Well, you might believe that," said Mr. P., "but no rational, self-respecting inhabitant of the 20th century does. I’m sure your rebbe, Rabbi Schneerson, doesn’t!" "I’m sure he does," said the rabbi. "I’m willing to wager anything that he does not," said Mr. P. "In fact, I’ll say this: If the Rebbe states that he believes that the sun revolves around the earth, I will become a Torah-observant Jew and convince everyone I know to do the same!" "Would you put that in writing?" challenged Rabbi R. "No problem," said Mr. P.
Soon after, Rabbi R. received the following letter:
Dear Rabbi R____
As per our conversation of today... I did say to you, and am submitting the same in writing by means of this letter, that if the Rebbe would make a public statement to the effect that... since the Talmud states that the sun revolves around the earth, it is therefore his firm belief that the sun does indeed revolve around the earth, that I will:
(a) personally observe the laws of taharat hamishpachah, tefillin and Shabbat; and
(b) influence my friends and colleagues to do the same.
It is, however, more than obvious to me that the Rebbe will not, in any way, make such a ridiculous statement, because
(a) he does not wish to be labeled as a fool,
(b) he himself is not as foolish as some of his ardent but hypnotized followers.
I predict, with no hesitation, that I will not hear any more about this matter from you or from the Rebbe...
I must tell you that I feel a deep personal hurt when people such as you make such asinine, ridiculous statements and then hide your abysmal ignorance behind the facade of "Torah." Don’t you realize you can still be believers and not live 500 years behind the times?
Mr. P. received not one but two separate letters in reply from the Rebbe, plus a third, cover letter, which read as follows:
Greetings and blessings!
Your letter, addressed to Rabbi F____ R____, reached me ... In view of its content, I naturally take this first opportunity of replying to it.
Not knowing whether you are more interested in the practical implication, or/and in the scientific aspect, I am writing two separate replies, enclosed herewith, which you can read in the order you prefer.
With esteem and blessing,
M. Schneerson
P.S. It is surely unnecessary to add-though I am adding it for the record-that I take for granted that you will keep your commitments with regard to the practical aspects of your letter.
One letter read:
... In reply to your question relating to the matter of the motion of the sun and the earth, whether the sun revolves around the earth or the earth around the sun,
It is my firm belief that the sun revolves around the earth, as I have also declared publicly on various occasions and in discussion with professors specializing in this field of science.
In view of the above, I have no objection, of course, if you wish to make this view known to whomever you choose...
The other letter read:
... This is in reply to your inquiry on the question of the rotation of the sun and the earth in relation to each other, namely, whether the sun revolves around the earth, or the earth around the sun, and which view is to be accepted, etc.
I presume you have in mind the scientific view, i.e., what science has to say on this question, and I will address myself to this aspect.
It is well known that this was a controversial issue in ancient and medieval science. However, since about half a century ago, with the introduction of the theory of relativity, the latter has been universally accepted as the basis of modern science...
One of the conclusions of the theory of relativity is that when there are two systems, or planets, in motion relative to each other-such as the sun and the earth in our case-either view, namely the sun rotating around the earth, or the earth rotating around the sun, has equal validity. Thus, if there are phenomena that cannot be adequately explained on the basis of one of these views, such difficulties have their counterpart also if the opposite view is accepted.
Secondly, the scientific conclusion that both views have equal validity is the result not of any inadequacy of available scientific data, or of technological development (measuring instruments, etc.), in which case it could be expected that further scientific or technological advancement might clear up the matter eventually and decide in favor of one or the other view. On the contrary, the conclusion of contemporary science is that regardless of any future scientific advancement, the question as to which is our planetary center, the sun or the earth, must forever remain unresolved, since both view(s) will always have the same scientific validity, as stated.
Thirdly, it follows that anyone declaring that a person who chooses to accept one of these systems in preference to the other is a fool, while one who accepts the other is a wise man-such a judgment shows that the person making it is ignorant of the conclusions of modern science, or that he has not advanced beyond the science of Ptolemy and Copernicus...
A further point might be added, though perhaps not pertinent to our discussion. It is that every person, including modern scientists, actually has three options to choose from in this matter: (a) that A revolves around B, (b) that B revolves around A, (c) that A and B revolve around each other. But such a choice cannot be dictated by science; it would be one’s personal choice and belief.
What has been said above is-to repeat-the deduction of the theory of relativity, as it is expounded in various scientific texts, and it can be checked with any scientist who is thoroughly familiar with the said theory. Of course, on the elementary and high-school level, science in general, and the so-called Solar System in particular, is taught from relatively simple textbooks, and the change in the scientific attitude towards the subject under discussion is not emphasized. But, as stated, it would be quite simple to verify it with any scientist who knows this particular field...
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http://ascentofsafed.com/cgi-bin/ascent.cgi?Name=age
http://www.inner.org/torah_and_science/torah-scientific-progress-heliocentric-geocentric.php
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I realize the OP didn't want to use this thread to argue about these issues, but since it was brought up...
Here is a discussion of some Talmudic ideas that state that Earth (specifically Jerusalem, and more specifically the Temple) are the centers of creation.
http://www.torah.org/features/israelmatters/eye.html
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The Land of Israel was therefore literally the crossroads of civilization. Its capital and spiritual center, Jerusalem, was the focus of a process where the Jew would interact with all peoples, absorbing all the wisdom of the ancient world, while at the same time touching every great civilization with the wisdom of the Torah. It was thus taught that "Jerusalem is the center of the world" (Midrash Tanchuma). G-d also told His prophet, "This is Jerusalem, I have set her in the midst of nations, and countries are around her" (Ezekiel 5:5). Considering both the centrality of its location and its spiritual influence, it is not at all surprising that Jerusalem today is a sacred city to the majority of the world's population.
Even today, when land routes are no longer as important as they were in the past, Jerusalem is still a center of human concern. One need only to think of how Providence placed the major portion of the world's supply of oil -- the main source of transportation energy -- within a stone's throw of Jerusalem. The world would otherwise not give the Holy City a second thought, except perhaps as an ancient sacred shrine. As it is, decisions made in Jerusalem today can influence even the greatest world powers. Jerusalem thus still occupies an important role in the councils of nations. All this is certainly more than mere coincidence.
On a much deeper level, however, we see Jerusalem not only as a center of civilization but also as the very center of creation. The most important single object in Jerusalem was the Ark, containing the Tablets and the Original Torah. This stood in the Holy of Holies on an outcrop of bedrock known as the Evven Shetiyah, literally, the Foundation Stone. The Talmud states that it is called the "Foundation Stone" because it was the foundation of the universe. As the Talmud (Yoma 54b) explains, this is because it was the very first point at which G-d began the act of creation.
This is based on the teaching that creation began at a single point, and from this point, the universe unfolded until G-d decreed that it should stop. This is the significance of Shakai, which is one of G-d's names. It comes from the word "Dai," meaning "enough," and it indicates the Attribute through which G-d stopped the expansion of creation at a certain stage.
Here we must seek to understand why creation had to begin in a single point, and what is the significance of this point. Why could creation not have been brought into existence all at once? Why did it all have to emanate from a single point in space?
The answer to these questions involves an understanding of the entire concept of the spiritual and physical, as well as the difference between the two. There are numerous discussions regarding the difference between the physical and spiritual, but this difference is often not spelled out precisely. Very closely related is the question of why G-d created a physical world in the first place. G-d himself is certainly spiritual, as is the ultimate purpose of creation. It is therefore somewhat difficult to understand the need for a physical world all.
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Where is the centre of the universe?
There is no centre of the universe! According to the standard theories of cosmology, the universe started with a "Big Bang" about 14 thousand million years ago and has been expanding ever since. Yet there is no centre to the expansion; it is the same everywhere. The Big Bang should not be visualised as an ordinary explosion. The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places, as far as we can tell.
In 1929 Edwin Hubble announced that he had measured the speed of galaxies at different distances from us, and had discovered that the farther they were, the faster they were receding. This might suggest that we are at the centre of the expanding universe, but in fact if the universe is expanding uniformly according to Hubble's law, then it will appear to do so from any vantage point.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/centre.html
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/32659/20150214/big-bang-didnt-happen-new-theory-suggests-universe-has-no-beginning-no-end.htm
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On the contrary! If any of my threads create a lot of discussion and debate -- and even go off on tangents -- then I'm happy about it. In fact, that's precisely why I create a thread. This is a discussion forum -- so discuss!
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http://www.techtimes.com/articles/32659/20150214/big-bang-didnt-happen-new-theory-suggests-universe-has-no-beginning-no-end.htm
According to our belief, this is not a 'New' theory, but rather the theory the pagans believed.
http://ohr.edu/6157
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In the 1950s there were two theories about the origin of the universe. The first was called the Steady State Theory. It had been put forward by Hermann Bondi, Thomas Gold and Fred Hoyle and held that the universe was homogeneous in space and time and had remained like that forever — in "a steady state". This was essentially what Greek culture had posited: the universe was kadmon and it had always existed.
The rival and, at the time, more controversial theory sought to incorporate the expansion of the universe into its framework. Edwin Hubble had shown in 1929 that galaxies are moving away from one another at remarkable speeds, implying that the space between galaxies is constantly expanding. A few physicists, led by George Gamow, had taken this notion and argued that the separation between galaxies must have been smaller in the past.
If one extrapolated this idea to its logical conclusion, it meant that at one point in time the universe had been infinitely dense. Using the laws of physics Gamow and his colleagues were able to show that this point — which was also infinitely hot — corresponded to the moment of creation. Everything in the universe had emerged from this incredibly dense and hot state in a cataclysmic event astronomers call the ‘Big Bang’.
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Relativity does not say there is no center to the universe: it says that we cannot yet determine where that center is!
Until the Michelson-Morley experiment is performed in space (possibly later this year), the Earth is as good a candidate for the being the center as anywhere else, and according to the Torah & Chazal - it's better!
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Nowhere does the Tenach attribute any diurnal or annual motion to the Earth. Yehoshua's Long Day, Chizkiya's Sign, and hundreds of pesukim speak only of its fixity and staticity. The Sun, Moon and stars were created only on the Fourth Day to "be for signs, for festivals and for days and years.... and to illuminate" (Breishis 1) the Earth, which was the first physical object created on the First Day.
The simplest explanation of the zero-velocity result of the 1887 Michelson-Morley experiment and the positive result of the 1925 Michelson-Gale experiment, is that the Sun & the rest of the universe REALLY are going round the Earth: "The Earth is suspended at the center of the universe" (Rambam Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 3).
[/color] "The difference between the heliocentric theory and geocentric theory is one of relative motion only, and that difference has no physical significance. If the Galileo Affair had taken place after Einstein had framed his General Theory, it would have resulted in an even draw out of physical and mathematical necessity” (Sir Fred Hoyle).
Even an atheist like Bertrand Russell admitted: "Whether the Earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors held, the observable phenomena will be EXACTLY THE SAME: a metaphysical assumption has to be made".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kSMNzQ_wzw
And it wasn't just the Lubavitcher Rebbe who held by Geocentrism: the Rambam, the Maharal, the Ma'aseh Tuviya, R.Nachman of Breslov, the Ba'al HaTanya, the Sefer Habris, R.Chaim Kanievsky, R.Aryeh Kaplan, R.Meir Kahane, R.Yitzhak Ginsburgh etc etc never relinquished the Geocentric paradigm, which is fully in accord with current Relativistic thinking, as Einstein himself admitted:
"The struggle so violent in the early days of science between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus is quite meaningless. Either coordinate system could be used with equal justification. The two sentences: 'the Sun is at rest and the Earth moves' or 'the Sun moves and the Earth is at rest' would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different coordinate systems".
And if Relativity should ever be shown to be wrong, then the Geocentric paradigm is no longer a primus inter pares: it actually becomes the favoured model!
Dumb.
Weak and pathetic arguments which do not disprove or refute what I said.
Show me an exact quote where Rabbi Kahane denied that the earth revolves around the sun, since you quoted his name. Give me source and page numbers. I'm waiting.
(And even if he did, then he was wrong about it. But I doubt he said what you claim).
You can cite authorities until the cows come home. Many of them had zero scientific knowledge whatsoever and some of them predate galileo so it's irrelevant to cite them.
Reb Yaakov Kamenetsky accepted the scientist's astronomical observations (they are observations and facts, not opinions) and he had no problem stating the rambam got something wrong about the galaxy. RY's approach is correct and there is no need to be a fanatical fool.
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Tag,
From the Jewish perspective the entire Universe was created for one purpose, to be a habitation for mankind, so that the Jewish people could receive the Torah at Sinai. These beliefs come from the Talmud and Midrashim. If you are interested (or anyone for that matter) I could provide links and quotations to support this belief. Again, I am talking about the 'center' being the purpose of creation rather than a physical location.
!?
The fact that earth was created for one purpose has nothing to do with what physically revolves around what and how they move. So what are you talking about?
I just gave you a dose of my Jewish perspective.
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!?
The fact that earth was created for one purpose has nothing to do with what physically revolves around what and how they move. So what are you talking about?
I just gave you a dose of my Jewish perspective.
Still having those problems with comprehension, are we?
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,79667.msg656054.html#msg656054
PS: I don't see anything in your reply which can be considered a 'Jewish Perspective'... If you care to elaborate.
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According to our belief, this is not a 'New' theory, but rather the theory the pagans believed.
I just heard about this the other day, but doesn't it say somewhere G-d has no beginning and ending?
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I just heard about this the other day, but doesn't it say somewhere G-d has no beginning and ending?
Yes, our belief is that G-d is without beginning and without end. But the physical world does have a definite beginning and will have an ultimate end. What I was trying to say is that the pagans and the secular believe that the world (in some form) existed forever. The Torah brought the idea that creation had a starting point to the world. Recently science has validated this idea with the concept of the big bang. What I think the article you linked was trying to say was the old view of a universe which had no beginning and will have no end.
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Regarding finding the center of the universe: It's ridiculous to try. Here's why:
Light travels at 185,000 miles in ONE SECOND. At that rate, you would go around the equator 7.5 times in ONE SECOND.
The Shapley Supercluster is the largest cosmic structure in the LOCAL universe. This supercluster of galaxies contains OVER 8,000 galaxies. Now guess how far it is from our Milky Way galaxy? It's about a BILLION LIGHT YEARS AWAY!
And that's just going in that direction!
This is why I laugh when people talk about trying to find the center of the universe.
Finding the center of a bagel -- yes! The center of the universe -- no!
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http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html
Universe with a Beginning
In 1959, a survey was taken of leading American scientists. Among the many questions asked was, "What is your concept of the age of the universe?" Now, in 1959, astronomy was popular, but cosmology ― the deep physics of understanding the universe ― was just developing. The response to that survey was recently republished in Scientific American ― the most widely read science journal in the world. Two-thirds of the scientists gave the same answer: "Beginning? There was no beginning. Aristotle and Plato taught us 2400 years ago that the universe is eternal. Oh, we know the Bible says 'In the beginning.' That's a nice story, but we sophisticates know better. There was no beginning."
That was 1959. In 1965, Penzias and Wilson discovered the echo of the Big Bang in the black of the sky at night, and the world paradigm changed from a universe that was eternal to a universe that had a beginning. After 3000 years of arguing, science has come to agree with the Torah.
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Yes, our belief is that G-d is without beginning and without end. But the physical world does have a definite beginning and will have an ultimate end. What I was trying to say is that the pagans and the secular believe that the world (in some form) existed forever. The Torah brought the idea that creation had a starting point to the world. Recently science has validated this idea with the concept of the big bang. What I think the article you linked was trying to say was the old view of a universe which had no beginning and will have no end.
What if G-d's creation is us and the way we see the world? In the end we will be resurrected back to the perfect earth?
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These are purely thoughts.
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Folks, while you were looking for the center of the universe, I just found the center of the solar system:
(http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/obama-mirror-center-of-universe-solar-system.jpg)
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Still having those problems with comprehension, are we?
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,79667.msg656054.html#msg656054
PS: I don't see anything in your reply which can be considered a 'Jewish Perspective'... If you care to elaborate.
I'm Jewish, so the statement was my Jewish perspective.
The fact that we have a belief/beliefs about the purpose or the culimation of creation says nothing about physicality, and importantly, DOES NOT lend any credence whatsoever to geocentrism or other incorrect ideas. I'm just clarifying is all.
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If you hold by an acentric 16 billion year old universe over a 6000 year old geocentric one, that is incorrect, both by true science and Torah!
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If you hold by an acentric 16 billion year old universe over a 6000 year old geocentric one, that is incorrect, both by true science and Torah!
That's simply false.
Your "true science" is about as true as your falsified rabinical quotes and obama's claim to support Israel's security.
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Obviously the Jewish year "5775" has no meaning to you , and Yehoshua's command to the Sun & Moon to stop, even less.
Despite your moniker, you are not a serious Kahanist!
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Obviously the Jewish year "5775" has no meaning to you , and Yehoshua's command to the Sun & Moon to stop, even less.
Despite your moniker, you are not a serious Kahanist!
Because Rav Kahane stated unequivocally that the earth is only 5,000 something years old and if you disagreed with that then you cannot join him? Where did he even talk about this issue?
The Torah speaks in the language of man.
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These are purely thoughts.
Foundation of the Torah is that the universe had a beginning. G-D created something out of nothing. (including time and space)
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Foundation of the Torah is that the universe had a beginning. G-D created something out of nothing. (including time and space)
Tag, I don't know what to think about that supposed new finding. But if G-d has no beginning or ending.... How do we know if his creation of the universe has a beginning or ending? What if his explanation of the creation in the Torah is for us, because we are too primitive to understand his creation... I'm not fighting, I'm just trying to understand.
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Tag, I don't know what to think about that supposed new finding. But if G-d has no beginning or ending.... How do we know if his creation of the universe has a beginning or ending? What if his explanation of the creation in the Torah is for us, because we are too primitive to understand his creation... I'm not fighting, I'm just trying to understand.
"What if his explanation of creation in Torah is for us because we cannot possibly understand"
I wouldn't say that's impossible.
You would enjoy Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim. In there he stresses the belief in creation ex nihilo but he uses eternity of the world as one of his premises by which he proves God's existence and he also says that if eternity could be proven (there was no evidence, only aristotle's and other philosophers' conjectures) we would have to reinterpret the Torah verses accordingly. So, somewhat paradoxical but in the end, you definitely have to say that an eternal world was acceptable in principle (IF it was proven) to Rambam and not a religious problem.
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Obviously the Jewish year "5775" has no meaning to you , and Yehoshua's command to the Sun & Moon to stop, even less.
Despite your moniker, you are not a serious Kahanist!
Still waiting for those quotes, chump.
*crickets chirping.
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Tag, I don't know what to think about that supposed new finding. But if G-d has no beginning or ending.... How do we know if his creation of the universe has a beginning or ending? What if his explanation of the creation in the Torah is for us, because we are too primitive to understand his creation... I'm not fighting, I'm just trying to understand.
G-D and His creation are separate entities.
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Still waiting for those quotes, chump.
What quotes, twerp?
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"Show me an exact quote where Rabbi Kahane denied that the earth revolves around the sun, since you quoted his name. Give me source and page numbers. I'm waiting.
(And even if he did, then he was wrong about it. But I doubt he said what you claim)."
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Just like you don't believe that R.Kahane said that the "The Haredim are irrelevant!", not everything he ever said was written down chapter & verse; you'll just have to take it that he said it from those who were actually there.
That the Torah, Nach, Chazal all hold that the Earth is stationary, the evidence of the senses that it is stationary, all experiments that it's stationary, all practical sciences are performed on the basis of a stationary Earth (including NASA launches), and all savants admit that geocentrism cannot be disproved and as Einstein himself stated is at least a primus inter pares: and you dare to say that R.Kahane, R.MM Schneersohn, R.Kanievsky, R.Ginsburgh etc etc are wrong: you kofer!
"We cannot feel our motion through space. Nor has any experiment ever proved that the Earth actually is in motion" (Lincoln Barnett, The Universe and Dr. Einstein, p. 73)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnLYIbpNst4
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...
why so angry? take it easy with Yerusha - whoeverheis.
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Just like you don't believe that R.Kahane said that the "The Haredim are irrelevant!", not everything he ever said was written down chapter & verse; you'll just have to take it that he said it from those who were actually there.
LOL
You serially fabricate quotes of rabbis and now you say "just trust me he said it" because you know we can call you on it when you fake the quotes.
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and all savants admit that geocentrism cannot be disproved
Especially when we define "savant" as "Anyone who disbelieves heliocentrism." That is how you draw the target around your arrow for all the positions you adhere to, making all the rabbinic scholars agree with you, and all those who don't, well, they are simply not called rabbis then. Oh, and if they didn't say it, and there's no record of them saying it, then we'll just pretend they said it.
You have recreated the "Kahanist" in your own image, but no one wants to be you or anything like you.
and you dare to say that R.Kahane, R.MM Schneersohn, R.Kanievsky, R.Ginsburgh etc etc are wrong: you kofer!
Rich coming from a pedo like yourself.
"We cannot feel our motion through space. Nor has any experiment ever proved that the Earth actually is in motion" (Lincoln Barnett, The Universe and Dr. Einstein, p. 73)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnLYIbpNst4
Typical cherry-picking of meaningless quotes to pretend that discredited scientific hypotheses are true according to "real science." Real cherry-picked, sound bite and quote-based science. Science is not a hodgepodge of quips and one-liners, you predator clown.
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KWRBT,
I know you can care less about my opinion. But I'm gonna give it to you anyway.
Sometimes you come off as a real jerk. (Pardon the expression). You always start in attacking people for saying something you disagree with. Have you ever tried letting people say what they want, disagreeing with it, and not making it a personal attack?
Often times I think you write interesting things and it really disappoints me when I see you resorting to attacks and defensively quoting and attempting to defame your 'opponent'. This is not the kind of Jewish discussion that I am familiar with. Showing respect to a fellow Jew who apparently shares a reverence of the sage Rabbi Kahane Zt'l should come naturally. What is gained by this kind of discussion? Does it make JTF look like a responsible group if we are virtually always sniping at long time members.
I do not think Yerusha is a troll as some have suggested. Sure I know I have been wrong about it in the past but I really think he is a Jew who shares a portion in the World to Come with each of us.
Regarding the topic. I do believe that physically the solar system as described in science is the truth. Measurements of the planets make sense in light of this arrangement, and our experiences in space have demonstrated this apparent fact. As I said before I reconcile the sages ideas through the concept of a spiritual center of the world, which may or may not mirror the physical. I believe that our senses are not infallible and scientific understanding changes with time.
But mainly I want to say to you KWRBT, I ask kindly of you to please try to be more understanding of other Jews, and it is my hope that we can respect each other, and demonstrate that Ahavat Yisrael is a reachable goal and a commandment.
If you have read this entire message please realize that my initial statements were meant to get your attention and not to provoke you to respond angrily to me.
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KWRBT,
I know you can care less about my opinion. But I'm gonna give it to you anyway.
Sometimes you come off as a real jerk. (Pardon the expression). You always start in attacking people for saying something you disagree with. Have you ever tried letting people say what they want, disagreeing with it, and not making it a personal attack?
Often times I think you write interesting things and it really disappoints me when I see you resorting to attacks and defensively quoting and attempting to defame your 'opponent'. This is not the kind of Jewish discussion that I am familiar with. Showing respect to a fellow Jew who apparently shares a reverence of the sage Rabbi Kahane Zt'l should come naturally. What is gained by this kind of discussion? Does it make JTF look like a responsible group if we are virtually always sniping at long time members.
I do not think Yerusha is a troll as some have suggested. Sure I know I have been wrong about it in the past but I really think he is a Jew who shares a portion in the World to Come with each of us.
Regarding the topic. I do believe that physically the solar system as described in science is the truth. Measurements of the planets make sense in light of this arrangement, and our experiences in space have demonstrated this apparent fact. As I said before I reconcile the sages ideas through the concept of a spiritual center of the world, which may or may not mirror the physical. I believe that our senses are not infallible and scientific understanding changes with time.
But mainly I want to say to you KWRBT, I ask kindly of you to please try to be more understanding of other Jews, and it is my hope that we can respect each other, and demonstrate that Ahavat Yisrael is a reachable goal and a commandment.
If you have read this entire message please realize that my initial statements were meant to get your attention and not to provoke you to respond angrily to me.
There are a few possibilities here:
1. You read only the latest message but not the provocations which came before. This has happened before.
2. You have something against me personally.
3. You have a man crush on Yerusha.
4. Some combinationn of all the above.
As I've said 100 times, he's not going to spew nonsense here, call it "torah" call everyone else kofrim who disagree, and not get a harsh response which is deserved. If you can't handle that, don't read it, shield your eyes. He is a serial offender (aka troll) in this regard and you know that so don't play dumb.
It's sad you consider me a jerk because it reflects poor judgment on your part.
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Btw, what exactly is "defensively quoting?"
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Enough ad hominems & stay focused on the subject, which is about how the Muslims as usual have hijacked & distorted Torah and true science:
The extremely varied experiments of Arago, De Coudre's induction, Fizeau, Fresnell drag, Hoek, Jaseja's lasers, Jenkins, Klinkerfuess, Kelvin's zero ether drag, Lodge, Mascart, Michelson-Morley interferometry, Lord Rayleigh's polarimetry, Troughton-Noble torque, and the famous "Airy's Failure" experiment, all conclusively failed to show any translational movement for the Earth, whatsoever.
There is overwhelming evidence for geocentricity eg.Varshni's Result, the utter uniformity of the Cosmic Background Radiation, the Barr Effect, star-streaming, Aspden's super-dense ether plenum theory etc., and its use as the truest possible model in all the applied sciences eg.practical astronomy, weather forecasting, navigation, rocketry, eclipses, oceanography and gyroscopy: "The truth will spring from the Earth" - Emes m'eretz titzmach! (Tehillim 85)