General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chaim Ben Pesach on March 15, 2015, 06:35:34 PM
Title: Ask JTF for March 15, 2015 is ready, baruch Hashem
Post by: Chaim Ben Pesach on March 15, 2015, 06:35:34 PM
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Title: Re: Ask JTF for March 15, 2015 is ready, baruch Hashem
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 15, 2015, 09:54:43 PM
Shalom Chaim. I wouldn't say I know much about Rav Kook, but I vaguely remember in his book "War and Peace" where he says that working with the Secular Zionists was only for the time being as both were working for a common goal- to take over the land of Israel. He also mentioned even taking over after them when the time and opportunity arises. I think this is also how Rav Bar-Hayim explained it about Rav Kook as well. I think the confusion came from some of his students and what came after him. Either way I wouldn't say I know much about Rav Kook, so I could be wrong but this was/is my impression and understanding.
Title: Re: Ask JTF for March 15, 2015 is ready, baruch Hashem
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 15, 2015, 09:59:06 PM
I think this topic is discussed here and how Mirkaz Harav changed after Rav Kook (in Rav Bar-Hayim's opinion and insights).
Redefining Religious Zionism: a Critique of Mercaz HaRav
The Zionist pioneers were radical secularists. Religious Zionists have consistently yearned to be accepted by them and their ideological descendants, even as the secularists have repelled them and tried to crush them. Religiously, religious Zionists largely mimic Haredim. They have failed to articulate a distinctive vision.
Shalom Chaim. I wouldn't say I know much about Rav Kook, but I vaguely remember in his book "War and Peace" where he says that working with the Secular Zionists was only for the time being as both were working for a common goal- to take over the land of Israel. He also mentioned even taking over after them when the time and opportunity arises. I think this is also how Rav Bar-Hayim explained it about Rav Kook as well. I think the confusion came from some of his students and what came after him. Either way I wouldn't say I know much about Rav Kook, so I could be wrong but this was/is my impression and understanding.
When Chaim refers to today's "followers of Rav Kook" I think he means the followers of Rav Kook's SON, Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook. (The Rav Kook I refer to, the father, is Rav Avraham Yitzhak Kook). According to Rav Bar Hayim, the son and other subsequent followers present a very limited vision of Rav Avraham Yitzhak Kook's teachings and miss the overall point. As a result, he feels the Mercaz Harav did not reach its potential. So in essence, the "Kook vs. Kahane" debate Chaim references is more about the "son of Rav Kook vs. Kahane" as most of the religious zionist camp today is following in the mold of Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook and that is the extremely mamlachti approach. Rav Bar Hayim is very much against that approach, he taught in Rabbi Kahane's yeshiva and has many views similar or the same as Rabbi Kahane, and he is also very much a student of Rav Avraham Yitzhak Kook (the father)'s works.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, Chaim.
Title: Re: Ask JTF for March 15, 2015 is ready, baruch Hashem
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on March 16, 2015, 12:41:06 AM
The reason I will conclude that the open Left is worse than Bibi is because when Chaim says there would be "resistance" from the population against the left doing retreats, I don't think that resistance is significant. It will just be people saying it's bad, people fuming and shouting against it, but the people cannot stop it, and they won't be able to. For that reason I say the left is worse. Because as much as people don't like what they do, they are powerless to stop them.