JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chaim Ben Pesach on July 20, 2016, 12:39:41 AM
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בס”ד
Please publicize these important videos everywhere possible.
In English:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=dGqDm0vhxoo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGqDm0vhxoo
In Hebrew:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=oEjpmnHllLk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEjpmnHllLk
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I don't understand. In the link posted by one of the Administrators of JTF named Shlomo, the article he linked to stated:
http://jtf.org/sorry-ivanka-israels-high-rabbinical-court-doesnt-recognize-your-conversion/
It should be noted, though, that despite our catchy headline, Ivanka Trump herself was converted under the Rabbinical Council of America and the Israeli Chief Rabbinate “Geirus Policies and Standards” network (GPS) agreement, and so her conversion is not, in fact, in jeopardy.
Are you disagreeing with the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, A] Because of Ivanika's motivation to convert was faulty or B] Lack of Fulfillment of Modesty Laws or other laws?
What would you respond to the argument based on the precedent of the Rambam in the following link
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/leniency-within-the-orthodox-movement/2/ (http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/leniency-within-the-orthodox-movement/2/)
I am confused about this issue, and I am not currently advocating either side in this debate.
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The following is the Beit Din that carried out the conversion.
New York City
Manhattan Beth Din for Conversions
Administrator: Rabbi Zvi Romm
(212) 807-9000x189
My rabbi who is a member of the RCA gave me the above Beit Din information and clarified the issue with the following:
He is basing this on articles that came out that conflate Ivanka with another woman who was converted. It is true that Rabbi Lookstein is the rabbi of both but in Ivanka's case she was converted by a recognized Beis Din (below). Not so by this other woman.
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The following is the Beit Din that carried out the conversion.
New York City
Manhattan Beth Din for Conversions
Administrator: Rabbi Zvi Romm
(212) 807-9000x189
My rabbi who is a member of the RCA gave me the above Beit Din information and clarified the issue with the following:
So who is the other one you're referring to? And why was hers not valid?
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I think she is some unnamed woman who married an Israeli. The israeli rabbinate doesn't recognize her conversion. The Israeli rabbinate is dominated by charedim.
So who is the other one you're referring to? And why was hers not valid?
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בס''ד
Here is why Ivanka's "conversion" is completely invalid:
1. She openly said that her motivation for conversion is marriage. That automatically invalidates the entire process. The only acceptable motivation for conversion is belief in Hashem and Torah Judaism, and a willingness and desire to fulfill the Torah commandments.
2. Ivanka does not keep the Torah commandments after her "conversion". She campaigns on Shabbat for her father, openly violating the commandment to observe Shabbat.
3. Ivanka's husband is a self-hating Jewish billionaire who convinced Donald Trump to meet with the ultimate Judenrat kapo Henry Kissinger ys"v in order to formulate Middle East policy. Ivanka's husband Jared Kushner has spent a lifetime funding anti-Semitic left-wing Democrats. Kushner also has no problem with Donald Trump's anti-Israel policies. The rabbis in the Beit Din may not care that Kushner is a self-hating Jew, but we Kahanists do care and this also invalids the conversion.
4. Haskel Lookstein is the ultimate Judenrat kapo traitor. He is not a "rabbi", because a traitor cannot be a rabbi. Lookstein supported the Oslo suicide process and has supported evil causes his entire life. The fact that Lookstein has personally "converted" people without a Beit Din shows what a fraud he is, even if he used a Beit Din in the case of Ivanka. Lookstein is Ivanka's "rabbi", and the Beit Din was clearly influenced by him, making their actions invalid.
I could go on and on. But this should suffice to show what a farce this "conversion" process was.
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4. Haskel Lookstein is the ultimate Judenrat kapo traitor. He is not a "rabbi", because a traitor cannot be a rabbi. Lookstein supported the Oslo suicide process and has supported evil causes his entire life. The fact that Lookstein has personally "converted" people without a Beit Din shows what a fraud he is, even if he used a Beit Din in the case of Ivanka. Lookstein is Ivanka's "rabbi", and the Beit Din was clearly influenced by him, making their actions invalid.
Does that mean that Ovadiah Yosef was also not a rabbi? Shas enabled Oslo.
She openly said that her motivation for conversion is marriage. That automatically invalidates the entire process. The only acceptable motivation for conversion is belief in Hashem and Torah Judaism, and a willingness and desire to fulfill the Torah commandments.
I don't know how she was able to do it. There have been other cases when someone met a Jew and the Jew would not intermarry and then the Non-Jew converted and when they got married, the one that was born Jewish becomes a Ba'al Teshuvah.
Ivanka does not keep the Torah commandments after her "conversion". She campaigns on Shabbat for her father, openly violating the commandment to observe Shabbat.
I've heard about how she keeps Shabbat and the family has real time together without distractions from smart phones and other nonsense. Does she do melacha while campaigning or does she walk and not do melacha when she gets there?
The rabbis in the Beit Din may not care that Kushner is a self-hating Jew, but we Kahanists do care and this also invalids the conversion.
Would Rabbi Kahane say that would invalidate it. A Halachic position can only be Kahanist if Rabbi Kahane ruled that way. Kushner may be a self-hating Jew but if he keeps Shabbat and kashrut, he's Shomer Mitzvot. There are Haredim that support evil positions also. Are they really not religious and are their Betei Din valid if they convert someone with Left Wing political or Anti-Zionsist views?
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Chayim there are lots of converts who aren't strictly observant and they are still considered Jewish by credible rabbis. I think you should speak on a case by case basis. So specifically about ghis case you could be right. I don't know how sincere Ivanka is about her conversio . That 'rabbi' Lockstein certainly seems like a joke.
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Chaim, was just curious, but isn't there something in Talmud that mentions about a slave woman who must be converted and married to a Jewish man who had her in possession? I'm not knowledgeable about Torah but was wondering about your input.
https://www.sefaria.org/Pe'er_HaDor_Teshuvot_HaRambam.132?lang=en
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Pe'er HaDor Teshuvot HaRambam 132
TESHUVA 132
1 (211)
2 Question: What would our master say on the matter of a bachelor who purchased a beautiful (“yefat to’ar”) slave woman, and she lives within his courtyard. The courtyard is large, and he lives there with his father’s wife and her three young daughters.
3 There is a dispute between him and his brothers.
4 They sued the brother before the judge, and many words were exchanged.
5 Later, his brother informed on him to the judge, saying that he bought a Christian slave woman and converted her, and he secludes himself with her. The slave woman came before the judge, and the judge inquired about her status, to which she responded: “I am a Jewish woman.” The judged offered that she could declare to be Muslim, but she refused, saying: “I am a Jewish woman, daughter of a Jewish woman.”
6 The judge restored her to him, and he took her to his home. The city is gossiping about him, and she is now living in his house.
7 Must the rabbinical court remove her from his house, as they are forbidden to seclude themselves, and even if he does not seclude himself with her, because the Torah states: “You shall stand blameless before the Lord and before Israel” (Bamidbar 32:22)? Or may we say that since his father’s wife dwells in the same courtyard, we are not required to remove her from him?
8 And if the rabbinical court must remove her, what would be the reason for her removal? We do not find seclusion forbidden except with an unmarried woman and a non-Jewish woman. Why would we forbid her to live in his house?
9 Does she have the status of a “beautiful captive woman” or not?
10 May our teacher instruct us, and may his heavenly reward be doubled.
11 Response:
12 She does not have the status of a beautiful captive woman, because this is a unique status conferred by Torah law, which permitted taking her as a wife at that specific time, namely, during a conquest, while she is still a gentile. The Torah spoke to counter the evil inclination, similar to the way it permitted them, at that time, to eat forbidden foods from the “homes fill with all manner of goodness” (Devarim 6:11), even bacon (Hullin 17a). Thus, this case is incomparable.
13 The rabbinical court must, due to this bad report, force him to remove her or to emancipate and marry her. Even though this is akin to a sin, because one who is rumored to have slept with a slave woman may not, ab initio, marry her if she has been emancipated, we have already ruled several times on cases such as this that he should emancipate and marry her. We do this to pave the way for those who wish to repent, and we say that it is better for him to eat the sauce than to eat the actual fats. We rely on the words of the Sages: “It is a time to act for God, for they have breached Your Torah” (Tehilim 119:126; Berakhot 54a).
14 We subtly and softly help him marry her, and we set a time by which he must marry her or remove her, as Ezra did (Ezra 10:10-44).
15 May God repair our breakdowns, as he promised: “I will remove all of your impurities” (Yeshayahu 1:25).
16 So writes Moshe.
on the other hand I did find this
Yevamot 2:8
It is the obligation for the eldest brother to perform Yibum; however, if the younger [brother] went ahead [and did it] he has merited [the Mitzvah]. [If] one was accused of [having relations] with a bondwoman and she was [subsequently] freed, or with a gentile woman and she [subsequently] converted, he may not marry her. But if he did she is not removed from him. [If] one was accused of [having relations] with a married woman, and [consequently] she is removed from him [her husband], even if he [the suspected adulterer] marries [her], he must divorce [her].
So I can understand where it is forbidden to have a relationship with the slave, and then she is free or a gentile woman and she converted for the purpose of marriage, but it seems Maimonides is taking a approach to try to work within emancipating the woman and converting her.
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I think the real reason is of chaim's hatred for Donald Trump in beating Ted Cruz in the Primaries.
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Quote by Chaim:
2. Ivanka does not keep the Torah commandments after her "conversion". She campaigns on Shabbat for her father, openly violating the commandment to observe Shabbat.
Do you know if she was violating one of the 39 Melachot (basically work activities that were used in one way or another to build the Mishkan/Tabernacle) which the Torah Law forbids Jews to do on Shabbat? If she did one of the 39 Melachot do you know if she did it with the intent to violate Sabbath or maybe someone like Rabbi Lookstein, who went into a church for some political ceremony (because he convinced himself that this would be such "fantastic" help to the Jewish people) might have also wrongly convinced her that her political activities would "save the Jewish people" and were justified because saving Jews overrides Shabbat?
It is important for me to know, in order to understand if after the elections, she could be persuaded to do good things for the Jewish people given the proper methods of persuasion or should I just add her to the Erev Rav list.
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I think the real reason is of chaim's hatred for Donald Trump in beating Ted Cruz in the Primaries.
This is stupid, even for you.
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The Elites want to rule this world everywhere, we had the Clintons, Obamas, and next maybe the Trumps. The EU is in big trouble, France and Germany have allowed refugees in who are terrorists, look at their streets now that are unsafe for anyone to be doing anything. The Elites sell out the sovereignty of their nations for more power, wealth, and alignment with the Beast. Look at the state of Turkey under Erdogan.
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This is stupid, even for you.
I think that what I posted has the ring of truth to it because of all the anti-Trump videos as well as not posting not one video blasting Hillary Clinton for being just as bad if not worse than Trump. I'm not a fan of Trump's either, but come-on!
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Chaim in this video used the harshest language against the rabbi, wishing"ys" to him. Why is that we're not allowed to criticize someone like Yossi Mizrachi then?
[If] one was accused of [having relations] with a married woman, and [consequently] she is removed from him [her husband], even if he [the suspected adulterer] marries [her], he must divorce [her].
Accused? What if he didn't, and husband or someone else just made up rumors?
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Chaim,
You should really take off your shoes before you enter this holy ground.
As you are surely aware one of the most grave sins in the Torah is to oppress a convert. It is the most hated by God. And it is the most harshly punished.
And here you are setting a bad example for both Jews and non Jews in your movement, may God save their souls from this kind of talk.
The oppression the Torah refers to, is talking about their previous sins. The sort of opression you are doing here is far worse. It is actually questioning the entire Jewish identity of this fine woman and all of her children and accusing her husband, the son of a founder of a well known Orthodox School of being married to a non Jew. Throwing the identity of all these childdren into doubt.
And, as I read further, I realized you are not only questioning Ivanka's Jewish status. But the status of all Jews who converted "for marriage'"
What a great burden you have taken upon yourself!
All motivated by your Sinat Chinam for Trump.
Look how far you have sunk.
The issue of Ivanka's conversion was addressed many years ago in the Jewish Press. All the Orthodox Rabbis (one of which you are not) agreed her conversion was Kosher.
Do you really think her father in law would allow his son to marry her if it wasn't?
With regards to your claims that she did not convert for the right reasons, I ask you, who exactly are you to know the intentions of another which our Torah clearly states are
"hidden matters"
One can at first be motivated by marriage, and then fall in love with the Torah and Mitzvos they study after that. This is entirely possible. And in Ivanka's case she has clearly stated her affinity withi both Sabbath and Kashrut, the staples of orthodox judaism.
I have friend who converted for his wife to be. Before he went into the Mikveh the nasty Rabbis lied to him and said his wife backed out. They were not supposed to do that but they did.
And he went in the mikveh anyway.
It just goes to show you how you can start with one intention and end with another and Chaim you are nobody's judge of intentions. You are not a Rabbi. Every Orthodox Rabbi disagrees with you.
You also must not be aware of the concept of "Dan Kekaf Zechut" with regards to Yael's intentions.
You clearly did not have your facts straight when you made the allegation. You were careless in a grave sin of the Torah and God should protect you and Ivanka that she never sees this.
A beit din is not neccesary for a conversion if there was one or not. Only the accceptance of the yoke of the mitzvot and mikveh for a woman and brit milah for a man and mikveh .
A good Jew would delete this thread and this video entirely (rather than spreading it to all G-d forbid, as instructed)which is what I recommend as an Orthodox Rabbi myself before the grave sin actually plays itself out.
It goes to show you how by comparing a decent person with flaws, to someone like Hitlery you have descended to casting aspersions not just on Ivanka but hundreds of thousands of conversions all around the world.
Rabbi Cahane is no longer with us to support your opinion, which he surely would not have anyway.
But in the end, you have not a single Rabbi to rely upon. Only yourself. Which places you in the position of Korach. And I hope you get yourself out of it soon. Because it's a dark path.
It's sad.
But you almost remind me of the DNC in wikileaks. Grasping at any thread you can to take down a decent, in part Jewish familly. You sacrificed your own spirituality for this one. I hope it was worth it for you.
Let all gentiles be aware. Chaim ben Pesach is an opinionated Jew. He is not a Rabbi. And the Judaism he teaches is not the real Judaism. And the Torah he teaches is not the real Torah.
The real Torah is "ways of pleantness and peace". The Torah Chaim teaches is always one of vindictiveness. Watch how his first attempt at teahing the Parsha immediately launches him into a tirade against Jews who do not make Aliya. Negativitiy is not the focus in Judaism. You want to learn true Judaism? Learn from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, a perpetually loving man, who also knew when to be tough at the right time, in the right way with strict adherence to the code of Jewish law, but underpinned with the essence of Judaism which is to love another as yourself. Not just Kahanists. But all Jews especially those you disagree with. You are no better than them. Though you may fool yourself to think you are. He always, even when he criticizied, criticized as least possible to make the point. Chaim's speeches are nothing but criticism. The Lubavitcher Rebbe expressed love and care for all life (G-d's creations), Including the Arabs, often saying that by not giving in to the arabs we minimize casualties on BOTH sides. Careful not even to hurt the feelings of anyone involved. Chaim just calls them Nazis. Don't forget it is a rule in the Torah that the critivcism that one uses on others, is actually the one he has. And the one who accused the most Jews of being a self hating Jews, is Chaim himself, the self hating Jew.
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If I were you I'd ask HaRav Osdoba,HaRav Segal ,HaRav Bogomilsky or HaRav Heller & I guarantee they will agree with Chaim.
A conversion for marriage is absolutely worthless
A conversion with the intention of not to be observant is absolutely worthless.
Chaim,
You should really take off your shoes before you enter this holy ground.
As you are surely aware one of the most grave sins in the Torah is to oppress a convert. It is the most hated by God. And it is the most harshly punished.
And here you are setting a bad example for both Jews and non Jews in your movement, may God save their souls from this kind of talk.
The oppression the Torah refers to, is talking about their previous sins. The sort of opression you are doing here is far worse. It is actually questioning the entire Jewish identity of this fine woman and all of her children and accusing her husband, the son of a founder of a well known Orthodox School of being married to a non Jew. Throwing the identity of all these childdren into doubt.
And, as I read further, I realized you are not only questioning Ivanka's Jewish status. But the status of all Jews who converted "for marriage'"
What a great burden you have taken upon yourself!
All motivated by your Sinat Chinam for Trump.
Look how far you have sunk.
The issue of Ivanka's conversion was addressed many years ago in the Jewish Press. All the Orthodox Rabbis (one of which you are not) agreed her conversion was Kosher.
Do you really think her father in law would allow his son to marry her if it wasn't?
With regards to your claims that she did not convert for the right reasons, I ask you, who exactly are you to know the intentions of another which our Torah clearly states are
"hidden matters"
One can at first be motivated by marriage, and then fall in love with the Torah and Mitzvos they study after that. This is entirely possible. And in Ivanka's case she has clearly stated her affinity withi both Sabbath and Kashrut, the staples of orthodox judaism.
I have friend who converted for his wife to be. Before he went into the Mikveh the nasty Rabbis lied to him and said his wife backed out. They were not supposed to do that but they did.
And he went in the mikveh anyway.
It just goes to show you how you can start with one intention and end with another and Chaim you are nobody's judge of intentions. You are not a Rabbi. Every Orthodox Rabbi disagrees with you.
You also must not be aware of the concept of "Dan Kekaf Zechut" with regards to Yael's intentions.
You clearly did not have your facts straight when you made the allegation. You were careless in a grave sin of the Torah and God should protect you and Ivanka that she never sees this.
A beit din is not neccesary for a conversion if there was one or not. Only the accceptance of the yoke of the mitzvot and mikveh for a woman and brit milah for a man and mikveh .
A good Jew would delete this thread and this video entirely (rather than spreading it to all G-d forbid, as instructed)which is what I recommend as an Orthodox Rabbi myself before the grave sin actually plays itself out.
It goes to show you how by comparing a decent person with flaws, to someone like Hitlery you have descended to casting aspersions not just on Ivanka but hundreds of thousands of conversions all around the world.
Rabbi Cahane is no longer with us to support your opinion, which he surely would not have anyway.
But in the end, you have not a single Rabbi to rely upon. Only yourself. Which places you in the position of Korach. And I hope you get yourself out of it soon. Because it's a dark path.
It's sad.
But you almost remind me of the DNC in wikileaks. Grasping at any thread you can to take down a decent, in part Jewish familly. You sacrificed your own spirituality for this one. I hope it was worth it for you.
Let all gentiles be aware. Chaim ben Pesach is an opinionated Jew. He is not a Rabbi. And the Judaism he teaches is not the real Judaism. And the Torah he teaches is not the real Torah.
The real Torah is "ways of pleantness and peace". The Torah Chaim teaches is always one of vindictiveness. Watch how his first attempt at teahing the Parsha immediately launches him into a tirade against Jews who do not make Aliya. Negativitiy is not the focus in Judaism. You want to learn true Judaism? Learn from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, a perpetually loving man, who also knew when to be tough at the right time, in the right way with strict adherence to the code of Jewish law, but underpinned with the essence of Judaism which is to love another as yourself. Not just Kahanists. But all Jews especially those you disagree with. You are no better than them. Though you may fool yourself to think you are. He always, even when he criticizied, criticized as least possible to make the point. Chaim's speeches are nothing but criticism. The Lubavitcher Rebbe expressed love and care for all life (G-d's creations), Including the Arabs, often saying that by not giving in to the arabs we minimize casualties on BOTH sides. Careful not even to hurt the feelings of anyone involved. Chaim just calls them Nazis. Don't forget it is a rule in the Torah that the critivcism that one uses on others, is actually the one he has. And the one who accused the most Jews of being a self hating Jews, is Chaim himself, the self hating Jew.
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Lubab is wrong on the need for a Beit Din for conversions. My rabbi said that Ivanka is a real convert and a Beit Din was used. See the second reply to this thread for what he wrote.
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As long as it is 3 orthodox rabbis in good standing.
If the RCA said it is good I would rely on it.
Lubab is wrong on the need for a Beit Din for conversions. My rabbi said that Ivanka is a real convert and a Beit Din was used. See the second reply to this thread for what he wrote.
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What a horrible thread... With all the problems in the world we are down to garbage threads like this questioning the validity of Jewish converts... As we speak homeland security is in stark fear that a attack will happen here in New York at the Thanksgiving Parade... JTf should start to focus on real issues not propaganda to disparage the Trump presidency... As I said Trump will do enough to complain about in due course but story twisting over made up issues and making a mountain over a mole hill just shows how childish it is to be proven wrong about Trump having the ability to win the election
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Chaim,
You should really take off your shoes before you enter this holy ground.
As you are surely aware one of the most grave sins in the Torah is to oppress a convert. It is the most hated by God. And it is the most harshly punished.
And here you are setting a bad example for both Jews and non Jews in your movement, may God save their souls from this kind of talk.
The oppression the Torah refers to, is talking about their previous sins. The sort of opression you are doing here is far worse. It is actually questioning the entire Jewish identity of this fine woman and all of her children and accusing her husband, the son of a founder of a well known Orthodox School of being married to a non Jew. Throwing the identity of all these childdren into doubt.
And, as I read further, I realized you are not only questioning Ivanka's Jewish status. But the status of all Jews who converted "for marriage'"
What a great burden you have taken upon yourself!
All motivated by your Sinat Chinam for Trump.
Look how far you have sunk.
The issue of Ivanka's conversion was addressed many years ago in the Jewish Press. All the Orthodox Rabbis (one of which you are not) agreed her conversion was Kosher.
Do you really think her father in law would allow his son to marry her if it wasn't?
With regards to your claims that she did not convert for the right reasons, I ask you, who exactly are you to know the intentions of another which our Torah clearly states are
"hidden matters"
One can at first be motivated by marriage, and then fall in love with the Torah and Mitzvos they study after that. This is entirely possible. And in Ivanka's case she has clearly stated her affinity withi both Sabbath and Kashrut, the staples of orthodox judaism.
I have friend who converted for his wife to be. Before he went into the Mikveh the nasty Rabbis lied to him and said his wife backed out. They were not supposed to do that but they did.
And he went in the mikveh anyway.
It just goes to show you how you can start with one intention and end with another and Chaim you are nobody's judge of intentions. You are not a Rabbi. Every Orthodox Rabbi disagrees with you.
You also must not be aware of the concept of "Dan Kekaf Zechut" with regards to Yael's intentions.
You clearly did not have your facts straight when you made the allegation. You were careless in a grave sin of the Torah and God should protect you and Ivanka that she never sees this.
A beit din is not neccesary for a conversion if there was one or not. Only the accceptance of the yoke of the mitzvot and mikveh for a woman and brit milah for a man and mikveh .
A good Jew would delete this thread and this video entirely (rather than spreading it to all G-d forbid, as instructed)which is what I recommend as an Orthodox Rabbi myself before the grave sin actually plays itself out.
It goes to show you how by comparing a decent person with flaws, to someone like Hitlery you have descended to casting aspersions not just on Ivanka but hundreds of thousands of conversions all around the world.
Rabbi Cahane is no longer with us to support your opinion, which he surely would not have anyway.
But in the end, you have not a single Rabbi to rely upon. Only yourself. Which places you in the position of Korach. And I hope you get yourself out of it soon. Because it's a dark path.
It's sad.
But you almost remind me of the DNC in wikileaks. Grasping at any thread you can to take down a decent, in part Jewish familly. You sacrificed your own spirituality for this one. I hope it was worth it for you.
Let all gentiles be aware. Chaim ben Pesach is an opinionated Jew. He is not a Rabbi. And the Judaism he teaches is not the real Judaism. And the Torah he teaches is not the real Torah.
The real Torah is "ways of pleantness and peace". The Torah Chaim teaches is always one of vindictiveness. Watch how his first attempt at teahing the Parsha immediately launches him into a tirade against Jews who do not make Aliya. Negativitiy is not the focus in Judaism. You want to learn true Judaism? Learn from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, a perpetually loving man, who also knew when to be tough at the right time, in the right way with strict adherence to the code of Jewish law, but underpinned with the essence of Judaism which is to love another as yourself. Not just Kahanists. But all Jews especially those you disagree with. You are no better than them. Though you may fool yourself to think you are. He always, even when he criticizied, criticized as least possible to make the point. Chaim's speeches are nothing but criticism. The Lubavitcher Rebbe expressed love and care for all life (G-d's creations), Including the Arabs, often saying that by not giving in to the arabs we minimize casualties on BOTH sides. Careful not even to hurt the feelings of anyone involved. Chaim just calls them Nazis. Don't forget it is a rule in the Torah that the critivcism that one uses on others, is actually the one he has. And the one who accused the most Jews of being a self hating Jews, is Chaim himself, the self hating Jew.
What's the matter, did you get banned from the Infowars Facebook group?
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בס''ד
1. In his post, Lubab defends the Reform view that conversion for purposes of marriage is valid. In reality, giyur al pi halacha (conversion according to Jewish law) is only valid if the convert sincerely believes in Torah Judaism and makes a commitment to observe taryag mitzvot (the Torah commandments). If the convert has ulterior motives other than sincere belief in Torah Judaism, the giyur is invalid. Conversions for marriage purposes, as Lubab and the Reform advocate, has led to many cases of "converts" still believing in their previous religion even after the conversion. We have many "converts" wearing crucifixes, going to church and having xmas trees. I have seen this in my own family. A distant relative of mine from Argentina married a woman who "converted" in order to marry him. After the "conversion", the woman wore a giant crucifix. She was also an anti-Semite. Needless to say the marriage ended in divorce with tragic consequences for the two children that this couple brought into the world.
2. Allowing "conversions" for purposes of marriage leads to far higher rates of intermarriage and assimilation. If Jews know that they can date, fall in love with and marry non-Jews as long as they convince them to "convert" for marriage purposes, this automatically leads to disastrous consequences. The last thing we need is to make easy for Jews to marry non-Jews with the excuse that they can always go through a "conversion" process. This is what the Reform and Conservative assimilationists have done and it has led to most Jews who live outside of Israel intermarrying.
3. Lubab claims that my defense of halachic conversion without ulterior motives is insulting to gerim (converts). The opposite is true: real gerim strongly oppose phony "conversions". Real gerim who converted for the proper reasons are offended that phony "converts" are accepted.
4. Another issue is that converts must be willing to observe taryag mitzvot (the Torah commandments). Ivanka Trump and her husband do not. They campaigned for Donald Trump on shabbat (the sabbath) - travelling in airplanes, speaking at rallies and press conferences with microphones, signing autographs etc. Ivanka Trump dresses very immodestly and her husband never wears a kipa or head covering. If this is the example we are now setting for Orthodox Jews, we are in big trouble.
5. Ivanka Trump married Jared Kushner. The Kushners are a corrupt billionaire family with a terrible history. Jared's father was convicted on corruption and bribery charges involving the openly homosexual left-wing Democrat governor of New Jersey Jim McGreevey. Kushner's father served a prison term as a result of his conviction. The federal prosecutor in the Kushner case was Chris Christie. The Kushners, like the Trumps, donated huge sums of money to left-wing Democrat politicians.
6. Lubab will defend almost anything if it involves his new Rebbe Donald Trump.
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Chaim, how can you criticize Islamic treatment of women when in Judaism, women can't even control their own property when they are married? I mean, you can't even be a married woman and a real estate agent at the same time, can you?
And why does Jewish law allow a father to stop his son from saying Kaddish for deceased mother?
Also, did not Maimonides also say that women are deficient in intelligence (just like Mohamed said)?
Yawn.
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I still did not research this issue sufficiently to express an opinion, but I found this interesting post on the subject at
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/02/conversion-best-beis-din-jerusalem.html
from a person named Roni
"On a link on this web site to R.rothkof =Rakefet he disscusses the conversion of Ivanka Trumpin NY. He states tha talmedie chachamim were part of her conversion beit din and that nobody should every say her conversion was not valid".
Shulchan Aruch clearly rules that in cases where the conversion
שולחן ערוך יורה דעה הלכות גרים סימן רסח סעיף יב
כג כו] כשיבא הגר להתגייר, בודקים אחריו שמא בגלל ממון שיטול או בשביל שררה שיזכה לה או מפני הפחד בא ליכנס לדת. כז] ואם איש הוא, בודקין אחריו שמא עיניו נתן באשה יהודית. ואם אשה היא, בודקין אחריה שמא עיניה נתנה בבחורי ישראל,... ה"ז גר אפי' נודע שבשביל דבר הוא מתגייר, הואיל ומל וטבל יצא מכלל העובדי כוכבים, וחוששים לו עד שתתברר צדקתו;
When one converts for an ulterior motive then even if the person accepted torah and mitzvot, we are "choshesh" until yitbaer tzidakoty (the righteousness of the person will be clarified). Until that moment one can/should be choshesh as to his true status. The nature of this chashash isdiscussed by various poskim where somestate that that it invalidates entirely the conversion and some say that itis only chashash derabanan and some state that it puts a safek in the gerut! (Rav MOshe writes so in one place).
Rav shachter in his Shiur http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/739046/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Conversions (http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/739046/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Conversions)
stated that there are different opinions as to the time which one is no longer doubted, ranging from one month after the conversion until five years after the conversion.
My question to Chaim, do you hold her conversion was definitely not good, that is to say, you would encourage her to do activities that are allowed for a Gentile and forbidden for a Jew? Or do you just hold that we can't give her full rights of being Jewish when this would involve a leniency?
Could you cite a halachic source to back your viewpoint?
You also offered some valid criticisms of the Kushner couple
4. Another issue is that converts must be willing to observe taryag mitzvot (the Torah commandments). Ivanka Trump and her husband do not. They campaigned for Donald Trump on shabbat (the sabbath) - travelling in airplanes, speaking at rallies and press conferences with microphones, signing autographs etc. Ivanka Trump dresses very immodestly and her husband never wears a kipa or head covering. If this is the example we are now setting for Orthodox Jews, we are in big trouble.
The question though I ask, maybe she thought that in order to prevent the election of Hillary who endangers the lives of millions of Jews, she would be justified to campaign on the Sabbath. After all spies that are sent for the sake of the security of Israel often have to break elements of Jewish law to maintain their spy identity and I have heard that some rabbis would permit this?
As far as Kushner's lack of wearing a head covering, do we not have precedents of Jews dressing up like Gentiles to infiltrate powerful political circles to look after Jewish interests?
Or maybe you say the damage as role models this couple has, far outweighs any security advantages that they can give to the Jewish people?
I am confused about this whole issue. Please help to clarify.
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http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Taanith.pdf
Talmud Taaanit 22a as translated by Soncino
R. Beroka Hoza'ah1 used to frequent the market at Be Lapat2 where Elijah often appeared to him.
Once he asked [the prophet], is there any one in this market who has a share in the world to come?
He replied, No. Meanwhile he caught sight of a man wearing black shoes and who had no thread of
blue on the corners of his garment3 and he exclaimed, This man has a share in the world to come. He
[R. Beroka] ran after him and asked him, What is your occupation? And the man replied: Go away
and come back tomorrow. Next day he asked him again, What is your occupation? And he replied: I
am a jailer and I keep the men and women separate and I place my bed between them so that they
may not come to sin; when I see a Jewish girl upon whom the Gentiles cast their eyes I risk my life
and save her. Once there was amongst us a betrothed girl upon whom the Gentiles cast their eyes. I
therefore took lees of {red} wine and put them in her skirt and I told them that she was unclean.4 [R.
Beroka further] asked the man, Why have you no fringes and why do you wear black shoes?5 He
replied: That the Gentiles amongst whom I constantly move may not know that I am a Jew, so that
when a harsh decree is made [against Jews] I inform the rabbis and they pray [to God] and the decree
is annulled. He further asked him, When I asked you, What is your occupation, why did you say to
me, Go away now and come back to-morrow? He answered, They had just issued a harsh decree and
I said I would first go and acquaint the rabbis of it so that they might pray to God.
Footnotes
(1) Of Be Hozae (Khuzistan).
(2) [The capital of the province of Khuzistan during the Sasanian period, v. Obermeyer p. 209.]
(3) Cf. Num. XV, 38.
(4) She was menstruating. [As protection of the woman this was singularly effective, as among the Persians the laws of
menstruation were of extreme rigour, v. Obermeyer p. 210, n. 1.]
(5) [It was the black latchets which were the distinguishing marks between Jews and Gentiles, v. Sanh. 74b and Krauss
TA. I, 628.]
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I think that at the end of the day in Judaism we go by the formal decision of the Beit-din, so unless the validity of that beit-din itself stands in question, the giyur is kehilchato.
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I mean, you can't even be a married woman and a real estate agent at the same time, can you?
Lololol wtf?
Spoken, once again, like someone who has never interacted with the Orthodox Jewish community in the real world. Ffs this comment is hilariously ignorant.
When are you going to understand that these silly deductions and self styled surface level twisted interpretations do not constitute actual learning about Judaism.
You keep spamming the same mindless catchphrases and empty metaphors over and over again to preach your moral equivalency. Propagandist.
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Is it?
https://books.google.com/books?id=Bzo0Skd1kcYC&pg=PA363&dq=jewish+women+muslim+women+sell&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM25P99b3QAhVExWMKHdTzCGEQ6AEIQjAE#v=onepage&q=jewish%20women%20muslim%20women%20sell&f=false
LOLOLOL Yes. Yes it is.
ffs you sent me a link to a book titled "Labour in the Medieval Islamic World"
Read that title again: Labour in the Medieval ISLAMIC World.
This is your source of information about Judaism? Wow, it is really no wonder your comments are so distorted and full of nonsense.
And when are you going to understand that oppressing women is immoral?
When did I say otherwise? I didn't. Stop lying. No one here is oppressing women.
Except maybe you because they get annoyed with white knights like you and do not respect them. Perhaps your shilling is a form of oppression in the mind of a woman who resents it but admittedly that's just a speculation.
Also, when are you going to start responding to my questions?
I did. We all did already. A million times. You just don't listen. You repeat yourself and say the same dishonest things over and over.
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Even the exact page you cited refutes one of your claims. How dumb.
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YS to Bernie Sanders, why are you always going on about this topic?
Look what's going in the world today. Look at how women are treated in Muslim countries, where they can't drive, or leave the house by themselves. And what about when little girls have their clitorises cut off with a dull blade and their vaginas sewn shut? How about acid attacks and honor killings?
Have you heard of Zahida Parveen? Her husband gouged out her eyes and cut off her nose when she was three months pregnant with their child in Pakistan. And honor killings are common there. Here's a link:
http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/julyaugust02/Mayjune02new/wpakistan.html
Who ever heard of such things being common among Jews? Why do you think that is?
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The author is an Israeli,
Why would that be relevant?
My uncle is the mayor of Timbuktu. Wgaf?
and her claims had been made
Bla bla bla
Same old nonsense tripe that some obscure legalisms somehow prove that muslims don't treat women like dirt and yet again false accusations against orthodox Jewish men.
You adhere to an ideology that condones female oppression.
Liars gonna lie.
And you just lied again.
You may blame your rabbis and Talmud for it because there is nothing in Torah that prohibits married women from engaging in financial activities freely. The only thing Torah says
false.
All of the Talmudic laws are derived from written Torah which is from Moshe, and/or are themselves oral laws transmitted by Moshe verbally to several generations of the highest scholars but not recorded in the written text, and instead preserved as an oral tradition/culture just as God commanded to be done. Passed to each generation of elite scholars. A constant give and take between written law, codification and interpretation that took place for generations.
Your continual denial of these facts is where your confusion stems from. Orthodox Jews live out this traditional Judaism which is a living culture and always has been. It is not a text based fantasy. It is a living tradition of living scholars and practicioners who preserved the core tradition and initial laws and expanded on them and evolved because people and circumstances change. Therefore as we told you 1000 times you will never understand a single thing about what Jewish life is like without spending time in such a community that upholds this tradition to know how they live. Save your sophistry (and your white knighting) for western philosophy forums
No you didn't. If you did, then I would not go back to this topic again. Keep knowing that continuous refusal to respond to or refute my claims would constitute an agreement with these views as well as proving I'm right.
Stop lying. You troll unrelated threads repeatedly with your garbage and you listen to no responses and you take no advice and you deny the facts we present only to ask again.
The only thing this proves is that you are a troll. And you are trolling. This thread was about Ivanka Trump conversion and you decided to spam your lies and bs to denigrate Judaism and proclaim your love for islam and its amazing treatment of women. They treat their goats better than they treat women and you know it.
Where?
I know truth hurts, but fats are facts.
Lololol
If only you had an open mind you would see what I mean but you are looking to support your agenda so you are blind to facts . I will unveil your stupidity later. I want you to think about it first.
Jtf needs to get serious and not deal with your constant trolling. Your whining is totally irrelevant to the national dialogue happening throughout social media and the narrative that we need to assert ourselves into.
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Is Chaim cockahoop over this, or will Ivanka continue to remain a Goya in his eyes?
"Israel Rabbinate officially recognizes Ivanka's conversion"
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/221404
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4d/ac/46/4dac46beb6fe4494d3574b27bed777f3.jpg)
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Just need one. The miniskirt went on after the mikveh, she might as well have dunked while holding a pig. She would be in a world of trouble as an actual Jew, but luckily for her it's not a real conversion.
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Just need one. The miniskirt went on after the mikveh, she might as well have dunked while holding a pig. She would be in a world of trouble as an actual Jew, but luckily for her it's not a real conversion.
Not that it should be done in that setting but I don't think holding a pig is a sin in Jewish law ... Its eating the pig that is a problem... If it was a conversion to Islam the pig might be more problematic ;D
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Not that it should be done in that setting but I don't think holding a pig is a sin in Jewish law ... Its eating the pig that is a problem... If it was a conversion to Islam the pig might be more problematic ;D
One may hold pigs. If you are doing so while you dunk in the mikveh to convert, you didn't convert.
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It is not meant literrally. There is a parable in Hebrew about dunking while holding a sheretz (=something treif, unkosher). it means that someone is asking to be clensed of his misdids or pretends to be reformed while still holding to his old sins with no real intent of changing his ways.
Not that it should be done in that setting but I don't think holding a pig is a sin in Jewish law ... Its eating the pig that is a problem... If it was a conversion to Islam the pig might be more problematic ;D