JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Raulmarrio2000 on September 23, 2007, 08:31:20 PM
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Does anyone know about traces of the Noahide Covenant among Peoples who have not received the word of the Torah given at Mount Sinai? The Noahide Covenant existed since 700 years before the Torah was given, but it was almost forgotten by most nations, and was only rediscovered when Moshe received the Torah. So all Noahides today derive their Commandments from the Torah. However, there are traces of the history of the Mabul in Peoples who do not know the Torah. Ancient Greeks knew a distorted version of the Flood, some African tribes too. Many other nations know at least some of the seven Laws.
And what about animals? They are suppossed to have no soul, and no free will, but what about these verses?
Bereshit 9:
(5) And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it; and at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man's brother, will I require the life of man.
(12) And G-d said: 'This is the token of the covenant which I make between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
(15) that I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
(16) And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between G-d and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.'
(17) And G-d said unto Noah: 'This is the token of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is upon the earth.'
These verses seem to indicate that the Covenant includes animals, they will be pusnished in case of killing a man, and they are also promised that there will no more flood. Most Animals avoid eating flesh from another living animal, and kill it before eating. What do you think of it?
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I know that animals are required not to have sex with animals of difference species and they didn't follow that before The Flood. Man was evil with robbery and sexual immorality and even animals committed sexual immorality with animals of different species.
You should ask Lubab about that. He is JTF's Forum Rabbi.
I read an opinion that Abraham was taught by a descendant of Noah. Has anyone else heard this?
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Then people should stop being jeolous of the Jews and starting new (false) religions. We are ALL descended from Noah. Jews (the seed of Abraham, Issac and Jacob) are just a group G_d burdoned with 'priestly nation' status (and 613 Mitzvot) for our benefit. Non-Jews are the lucky ones. We're living off the spiritual 'labour' of the Jews.
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Then people should stop being jeolous of the Jews and starting new (false) religions. We are ALL descended from Noah. Jews (the seed of Abraham, Issac and Jacob) are just a group G_d burdoned with 'priestly nation' status (and 613 Mitzvot) for our benefit. Non-Jews are the lucky ones. We're living off the spiritual 'labour' of the Jews.
That's right Newman. The world stands on the Israelites (the priests). At first G-d planned to give the Torah to Mankind (613 mitzvot) but, as we are sinners and Adam eat the forbidden fruit, the Torah was given only to Israel. So Israelite avodah ( especially the 70 korbanot brought at Succot, now replaced by the prayer of Musaf) are for our benefit.
However, Rabbis teach that even though a Goy must not create a new religion, he is not guilty for being Christian or anyother non-pagan religion, since it is considered shituf, something that is only forbidden to Jews.
BTW, if a Goy is jealous of the Jews..... would he be willing to keep the 613 mitzvot by himself??? Suerely not! Then, thanks to the Jews who keep them in our place!
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Then people should stop being jeolous of the Jews and starting new (false) religions. We are ALL descended from Noah. Jews (the seed of Abraham, Issac and Jacob) are just a group G_d burdoned with 'priestly nation' status (and 613 Mitzvot) for our benefit. Non-Jews are the lucky ones. We're living off the spiritual 'labour' of the Jews.
That's right Newman. The world stands on the Israelites (the priests). At first G-d planned to give the Torah to Mankind (613 mitzvot) but, as we are sinners and Adam eat the forbidden fruit, the Torah was given only to Israel. So Israelite avodah ( especially the 70 korbanot brought at Succot, now replaced by the prayer of Musaf) are for our benefit.
However, Rabbis teach that even though a Goy must not create a new religion, he is not guilty for being Christian or anyother non-pagan religion, since it is considered shituf, something that is only forbidden to Jews.
BTW, if a Goy is jealous of the Jews..... would he be willing to keep the 613 mitzvot by himself??? Suerely not! Then, thanks to the Jews who keep them in our place!
Right on, Raul.
We should all count ourselves lucky G_d put the yoke of the 613 Mitzvot 'round the Jews' necks and not ours. Every time I eat a bacon sandwich on the beach on Saturday I count my blessings.
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Actually animals do have a part of the soul - the Nefesh - thats the lowest part of the soul (the animalistic soul), humans have that and also Ruah (living spirit), then an Israelite who serves G-d gets connected to a Neshama (higher soul), their are also 2 higher levels but the Rabbis say that people in todays generation dont reach that level.
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Right on, Raul.
We should all count ourselves lucky G_d put the yoke of the 613 Mitzvot 'round the Jews' necks and not ours. Every time I eat a bacon sandwich on the beach on Saturday I count my blessings.
That's right. Goyim do not need to keep kosher. However, everything that is impure to Jews is also impure to us. Only that we are not bound to keep pure. The distinction between pure and impure was known by Noah when he took seven couples of the pure and one of the impure to the Ark. In ancient times that knowledge was needed by Goyim in case they wanted to offer a sacrifice to Hashem. Only kosher animals are suitable. Theoretically, even today, a goy could offer a sacrifice (but none of us know the rules, Jews however are forbidden to offer sacrifices until the Temple is rebuilt).
Impure animals are dirty and repugnant, they are not forbidden to us but, would you eat something dirty, even if it's not a sin? I hate pork and shell fish. I don't even touch it with bare hands
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I was wondering are non-Jews supposed to keep kosher (dont jump on me right away), Im asking because killing an animal the kosher way is the least painfull way of dieng, and non-Jews except for muslims dont kill the animals by cutting its throat. I even heard that animals are electricuted, is that true? So with that said since the kosher or halal way is more human do non-Jews have to do it that way?
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I was wondering are non-Jews supposed to keep kosher (dont jump on me right away), Im asking because killing an animal the kosher way is the least painfull way of dieng, and non-Jews except for muslims dont kill the animals by cutting its throat. I even heard that animals are electricuted, is that true? So with that said since the kosher or halal way is more human do non-Jews have to do it that way?
We have to keep some aspects of Kosher. We can't be cruel in any way. We'd NEVER eat dogs, cats or horses because they have a sense of death and panic. The only difference with us is pork and shellfish. I can go without pork if need be, but I live in the world's seafood capital. I'd kill for oysters.
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I was wondering are non-Jews supposed to keep kosher (dont jump on me right away), Im asking because killing an animal the kosher way is the least painfull way of dieng, and non-Jews except for muslims dont kill the animals by cutting its throat. I even heard that animals are electricuted, is that true? So with that said since the kosher or halal way is more human do non-Jews have to do it that way?
Well, if you kill the animal by yourself, it is better that you cut it's neck, even if you do not do it in the Jewish ritual way. If you buy it in the butcher's, you can eat any meat, as far you are sure it was not torn from the animal still alive. I'd rather be carefull with blood. Gentiles are not bound to clean the meat from residual blood, but some say it's wrong to intentionally eat the blood that comes out of a dying animal, as it is still alive. So better avoid blood sausage and so on. And be carefull with some fast food. Some hamburguers are added plasma from blood extracted from a living animal.
And if you don't trust a Gentile butcher.....then you can buy kosher meat. There's no problem
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I was wondering are non-Jews supposed to keep kosher (dont jump on me right away), Im asking because killing an animal the kosher way is the least painfull way of dieng, and non-Jews except for muslims dont kill the animals by cutting its throat. I even heard that animals are electricuted, is that true? So with that said since the kosher or halal way is more human do non-Jews have to do it that way?
Well, if you kill the animal by yourself, it is better that you cut it's neck, even if you do not do it in the Jewish ritual way. If you buy it in the butcher's, you can eat any meat, as far you are sure it was not torn from the animal still alive. I'd rather be carefull with blood. Gentiles are not bound to clean the meat from residual blood, but some say it's wrong to intentionally eat the blood that comes out of a dying animal, as it is still alive. So better avoid blood sausage and so on. And be carefull with some fast food. Some hamburguers are added plasma from blood extracted from a living animal.
And if you don't trust a Gentile butcher.....then you can buy kosher meat. There's no problem
I personally only eat glatt kosher (im Jewish) but was just wondering about the noahide way.
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Does anyone know about traces of the Noahide Covenant among Peoples who have not received the word of the Torah given at Mount Sinai? The Noahide Covenant existed since 700 years before the Torah was given, but it was almost forgotten by most nations, and was only rediscovered when Moshe received the Torah. So all Noahides today derive their Commandments from the Torah. However, there are traces of the history of the Mabul in Peoples who do not know the Torah. Ancient Greeks knew a distorted version of the Flood, some African tribes too. Many other nations know at least some of the seven Laws.
And what about animals? They are suppossed to have no soul, and no free will, but what about these verses?
Bereshit 9:
(5) And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it; and at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man's brother, will I require the life of man.
(12) And G-d said: 'This is the token of the covenant which I make between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
(15) that I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
(16) And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between G-d and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.'
(17) And G-d said unto Noah: 'This is the token of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is upon the earth.'
These verses seem to indicate that the Covenant includes animals, they will be pusnished in case of killing a man, and they are also promised that there will no more flood. Most Animals avoid eating flesh from another living animal, and kill it before eating. What do you think of it?
Animals have souls. They are alive right?
They just have animal souls not human souls. They do not have free choice the way that people do.
But sometimes people start to act like animals and they start losing their free choice.
Gentiles should try to eat Kosher meat only because they can be assured that way that it is not meat torn from live flesh. Non-kosher butchers often use a shocking process that runs afoul of that.