JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sarah on October 11, 2007, 09:11:05 AM
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I would like to know. I already know that two "I do's" are assured.
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Don't know what you are talking about to be honest??
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What's bought this up now Sarah? You know your a valued member of JTF!
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I don't want to be a valued member, I just want people who think i'm a fake liar, to tell me instead of sending PMs to others about it.
My name is not Aisha.
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I havent seen anything to suggest you are practicing Takiyah
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I don't want to be a valued member, I just want people who think i'm a fake liar, to tell me instead of sending PMs to others about it.
My name is not Aisha.
I don't know about PM's I don't use them much but I would not give it much thought. With a group this size you are always going to have someone doing stuff like that. Look at it this way, if they have to go behind your back to say stuff they can't be very secure in what they have to say.
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Who sarah
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You seem to be a fine JTFer... I had no idea this was going on!
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She is honest because if she were practicing Takiyah she'd be saying Islam is a peaceful religion and Muhammad is a prophet etc so unless she says that she's not practicing Takiyah. Besides she's 15 according to her profile so how could a child practice Takiyah?
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I don't want to be a valued member, I just want people who think i'm a fake liar, to tell me instead of sending PMs to others about it.
My name is not Aisha.
How do you know people are sending PMs calling you a liar?
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Sarah, you are one of the most popular members of our forum. The overwhelming majority of our forum members think very highly of you.
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I would like to know. I already know that two "I do's" are assured.
You know what they say about opinions......
Someone's opinion is meaningless unless they can back it up with proof. I, for one, haven't seen any proof of taqiyyah in your posts. If someone sees fit to PM behind your back instead of openly accusing you of this and providing proof, I would just ignore them.
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I agree with JSullivan and CJD - I think most of us do think very highly of you.
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Who is the one that voted she does practice Takiyah? Do you also think Norman practiced Takiyah?
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Who is the one that voted she does practice Takiyah? Do you also think Norman practiced Takiyah?
Who is Norman?
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Sarah is not practicing anything why don'nt whoever you are admit it
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Who is Norman?
He was an anti-Muslim Iranian.
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you're only 15 and there is nothing about you that suggests any inconsitencies on your personality..in fact, if anything, you are a pleasure to talk to..
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Who is Norman?
He was an anti-Muslim Iranian.
Was he a member of the forum?
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yeh what happened to norman?
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yeh what happened to norman?
I don't remember him :o
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It doesn't matter what anyone else says. You have to decide for yourself if you are a Muslim or not. All my "Jewish" friends say that I am un-American (I dont disagree so much with this one) and that what I say is un-Jewish. I know better than they do. I know what Judaism is and it doesn't matter to me what they say. You have to decide what your identity is, no one can tell you.
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I've seen nothing to suggest that you are a taqiyyaing Muslim. I've seen you defend certain aspects of Islam at times, but that's not taqiyya.
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I will say that on another thread that I said I was horrified after reading the koran, sura and haidth (and I think anyone on this forum would be if they were being honest) and Sarah, you DID tell me that I "must have misunderstood the koran if I was horrified" because it was nothing more than a "bunch of fables and stories"...which is completely untrue, it is a book of war, with the end result being dar al islam.
I read with perfect comprehension, AND have the benefit of 2 ex muslim friends who assure me that this nonsense about us silly infidels "misunderstanding" the koran is ridiculous, that its something that muslims will tell us to keep us off guard or make us doubt what we are reading.
Only YOU can decide what you are, what you believe, but I assure you that I understood perfectly what I read, and I am still horrified at what I read.
Islam is a blood cult, its followers are terrorists, and mohammad was a disgusting pedophile, war lord, and the goal of islam is to have the entire world run by muslims under sharia law. I will stand by these statements and be willing to leave the forum if the majority of people disagree with them.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=9305.msg92707#msg92707
is the thread in question
I will say that I sincerely hope that you do leave islam fully, and realize your full potential, with all the rights and freedoms that you are entitled to.
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Ze'ev has it right. There are times, Sarah, when you defend parts of Islam that make it difficult for my full-on rage towards Islam to understand. But it is good to hear from someone who lives or lived an Islamic lifestyle.
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I will say that on another thread that I said I was horrified after reading the koran, sura and haidth (and I think anyone on this forum would be if they were being honest) and Sarah, you DID tell me that I "must have misunderstood the koran if I was horrified" because it was nothing more than a "bunch of fables and stories"...which is completely untrue, it is a book of war, with the end result being dar al islam.
I read with perfect comprehension, AND have the benefit of 2 ex muslim friends who assure me that this nonsense about us silly infidels "misunderstanding" the koran is ridiculous, that its something that muslims will tell us to keep us off guard or make us doubt what we are reading.
Only YOU can decide what you are, what you believe, but I assure you that I understood perfectly what I read, and I am still horrified at what I read.
Islam is a blood cult, its followers are terrorists, and mohammad was a disgusting pedophile, war lord, and the goal of islam is to have the entire world run by muslims under sharia law. I will stand by these statements and be willing to leave the forum if the majority of people disagree with them.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=9305.msg92707#msg92707
is the thread in question
I will say that I sincerely hope that you do leave islam fully, and realize your full potential, with all the rights and freedoms that you are entitled to.
In all fairness, is it taqiyya if the person saying the things about Islam actually believes those things to be true? Is it taqiyya when a person is taught these things, and it is all he knows, and he simply repeats them? I think taqiyya has to involve active deception, not passive deception. I don't think it can properly be considered taqiyya considering the fact that she is 15 and is probably taught these things and even believes them to be true, things like "Islam is peace". In order for it to be taqiyya, she needs to KNOW that it's false, and lie about it in order to trick people. But maybe not? Is it still taqiyya if that person is taught these things because the ones teaching him want to spread these lies, and the person accepts them and in turn spreads the falsehoods to other people, thinking that they are telling people the truth? In effect, it has the same result, spreading falsehoods about Islam. Does it matter whether the person KNOWS that they are engaging in taqiyya or not? I think it does, which is why I don't believe that Sarah is engaging in it herself. I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she is simply repeating what she has been told, and she hasn't been told that what she is taught is taqiyya. After all, there are some branches of Islam that teach that Islam is legitimately a religion of peace, etc. I think Sarah belongs to that kind of branch of Islam.
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I stand by my comprehension of the koran, and do not accept anyone telling me its a peaceful book of fables.
The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be "Dissimulation."
Yes, its taquiyya, it wouldnt be if they DIDNT believe it. Its a concealment of the faith, or aspects of it.
“Kitman” is close to “taqiyya,” but rather than outright dissimulation, it consists in telling only a part of the truth, with “mental reservation” justifying the omission of the rest. One example may suffice. When a Muslim maintains that “jihad” really means “a spiritual struggle,” and fails to add that this definition is a recent one in Islam (little more than a century old), he misleads by holding back, and is practicing “kitman.” When he adduces, in support of this doubtful proposition, the hadith in which Muhammad, returning home from one of his many battles, is reported to have said (as known from a chain of transmitters, or isnad), that he had returned from “the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad” and does not add what he also knows to be true, that this is a “weak” hadith, regarded by the most-respected muhaddithin as of doubtful authenticity, he is further practicing “kitman.”
From Jihadwatch
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Some your points on meaning of Quran and hadiths are disturbing but I don't thing you're using taqiya on us; I know a few pisslamic excrements from ather forums ant they have their own style. ::) I shud not use my Quran as toilet paper it was not good even in this role and now I'm to chepskate to waste more money on other one. ;) O0
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I shud not use my Quran as toilet paper it was not good even in this role and now I'm to chepskate to waste more money on other one
I ordered my "free" koran from cair, which they so kindly sent to me. We used it as kindling on July 4, my brother wanted to put it out errrr.." in an organic manner" so to speak, but said it would have been a shameful waste of beer ;)
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Yes Sarah, I just voted, to give you the number two. After over a year on this site posting and conversing to others, and myself, I have many questions that have been answered considering your position. I'll admit, sometimes you've been very good and open minded than on others, even in topics that have been beaten to death like a dead horse, you've come out openly and highly suspect in my opinion.... Logically, after such a lengthy time, I must ask questions and reserve my doubts. Too logically I do not trust Muslims......for obvious and Qur'anically stated reasons.
A brilliant way to open this up for discussion to bring those of us who do have our reservations forward and create conflict. A true dialectical tactic if I do say so myself.... I publically say I do have my reservations based on numerous posts and your personal private messages. ;)
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That is such a terrible waste...Kelly.... The Qur'an environmentally friendly and are recyclable no? You could have it framed next to the toilet... "In case of emergency: break glass" O0 I'll admit that it may not be as good as the Ol-Charmin.... :o
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I stand by my comprehension of the koran, and do not accept anyone telling me its a peaceful book of fables.
The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be "Dissimulation."
Yes, its taquiyya, it wouldnt be if they DIDNT believe it. Its a concealment of the faith, or aspects of it.
“Kitman” is close to “taqiyya,” but rather than outright dissimulation, it consists in telling only a part of the truth, with “mental reservation” justifying the omission of the rest. One example may suffice. When a Muslim maintains that “jihad” really means “a spiritual struggle,” and fails to add that this definition is a recent one in Islam (little more than a century old), he misleads by holding back, and is practicing “kitman.” When he adduces, in support of this doubtful proposition, the hadith in which Muhammad, returning home from one of his many battles, is reported to have said (as known from a chain of transmitters, or isnad), that he had returned from “the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad” and does not add what he also knows to be true, that this is a “weak” hadith, regarded by the most-respected muhaddithin as of doubtful authenticity, he is further practicing “kitman.”
From Jihadwatch
So you're saying she's intentionally deceiving people? How do you know that? Maybe she herself has been brainwashed. I'd like to see those that criticize her be raised by Muslim parents and still be open-minded enough to come to a forum like this and support Israel.
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All muslims are brainwashed, I was simply posting the definition of taquiyya and kitman.
How do I know for certain, obviously I dont. I am saying that I will not be told that I "misunderstand" the koran, thats what muslims will ALWAYS tell us. My friend left islam when she was 15, was beaten by her father and brothers for refusing to wear a headscarf because she did not believe in what it stood for, nor did she believe ANY of the hogwash that is islam, she ran away at 17 when her father tried to marry her off to a 50 yr old man he owed a favor to. I met her when she was 27, and that girl was still looking over her shoulder expecting for someone to find and kill her.
We can all believe what we like here, thats the beauty of freedom.....let islam take over and lets see what kind of freedom we will be enjoying
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Ireally think the only thing Sarah is doing is posting like everyone else
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And telling me that I misunderstood the koran because I know it is evil and a book of war and I was horrified by reading it.
I do not think that this forum is the place to be defending ANY aspects of that vile, ugly cult. Is there even one person here who thinks that there is anything in the koran, haidth or sura that can in ANY possible way be defended??? If people here think that islam, muslims, the koran, haidth, or sura are defensable, then I am obviously in the wrong place, I was looking for a forum that deplored islam and muslims AND supported the civilized non muslim world, especially Israel.
Maybe I just found my next question for ask JTF
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I don't know if she's practicing taqiyyah or Kitman but I do know, from reading her posts that I hold my reservations period, end, full stop. Am I supposed to believe and respect Muslims? I think after reading the Qur'an/Hadith one can answer that themselves.
Oh before I retire for the evening, can anyone tell me where the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus is in the Torah? What book is it in; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers or Deuteronomy? As well information on the debate by the Jews that couldn't settle on the number of sleepers in the cave or, like the Qur'an, if a dog, cat or camel should be included? ???
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Well that Norman fellow was certainly someone who wasn't practicing taqiyya: http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=3413.15;wap2 (http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=3413.15;wap2)
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Sarah/Aisha I think you know my opinions and views from the numerous messages you have written me personally over the past year +. I do hope you get out of that death cult and too wish you'd entertain some of the factual correctness I have presented, research yourself and bed them in your memory as Islam is NO place for a woman...
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Well that Norman fellow was certainly someone who wasn't practicing taqiyya: http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=3413.15;wap2 (http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=3413.15;wap2)
Why is Norman not listed as a member? Was he banned?
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I actually have no idea what this thread is about. Huh? Whuh? Ah, sometimes ignorance is bliss. :)
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Why is Norman not listed as a member? Was he banned?
I don't know. I got here way after he left.
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I actually have no idea what this thread is about. Huh? Whuh? Ah, sometimes ignorance is bliss. :)
Sarah used to be a Muslim and she wants to know whether we think she is no longer a muslim or if she is just lying to us.
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And telling me that I misunderstood the koran because I know it is evil and a book of war and I was horrified by reading it.
I do not think that this forum is the place to be defending ANY aspects of that vile, ugly cult. Is there even one person here who thinks that there is anything in the koran, haidth or sura that can in ANY possible way be defended??? If people here think that islam, muslims, the koran, haidth, or sura are defensable, then I am obviously in the wrong place, I was looking for a forum that deplored islam and muslims AND supported the civilized non muslim world, especially Israel.
Maybe I just found my next question for ask JTF
You make a very good point.... :)
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I actually have no idea what this thread is about. Huh? Whuh? Ah, sometimes ignorance is bliss. :)
Sarah used to be a Muslim and she wants to know whether we think she is no longer a muslim or if she is just lying to us.
Ok thats the only post I understand.
Theres no way she can prove anything but if she still thinks the religion in any postive terms as meant to be an ex - muslim, the she is a lier.
You don't leave a religion lighty.
You leave it because you can't see any good in it, theres no postive left.
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Sarahs been here more than a year, and she's a great JTF'er. An ex-muslim? What did you convert to Sarah? Christianity?
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I think very highly of you Sarah and I hope you discard of Islam completely.
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Thank you Infidel
No ex muslim would ever ever defend ANY aspect of islam, there are penalties for leaving, in western countries the "death" penalty isnt practiced too much (or not that we hear of) but its not something that you leave lightly or halfway.
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Sarah / Aisha/ Bill Gates, what ever your real name is. I don't know you well enough too make a call on this. You seem too be very popular on JTF. All I can say is mohammed was a violent man and islam is not a religion but a cult.
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I am not going to vote (YET), but I have to agree with Kellymaureen completely. You just lost a lot of trust with us, Sarah, and making a whiny thread does not help your case at all. You can't take back what you said about Islam being misunderstood, but your subsequent postings are only doing further damage to your credibility.
Maybe you AREN'T deliberately engaging in taqqiyah, but the fact that after nearly a year here you would make such a statement tells me that everything Chaim has said has gone in one ear, out the other. Shame, shame. :(
And to think how much of a chance I gave you and how kind I was. The whole entire forum has bent over backwards for you since day one. I even stuck by you when you got a good member (Scotch) banned for no reason at all. I don't think you can do anything to fix stuff now.
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Thanks Yacov, but really I cant stand to see islam defended in any way, especially on THIS forum of all places. Islam and muslims are deplorable, its a vile blood cult, indefensable in my opinion.
At least I have my next ask JTF question, Im curious to see what the answer will be...."should islam be allowed to be defeneded in ANY way and by ANY person on this forum" better yet, to see if Chaim thinks that there IS any defense of any aspect of islam.
Ill know after that.
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When she is on the forum, she is her real self
Are her parents forcing her to defend islam on the forum?
Would a Noahide really believe that the koran is a harmless book of fables and stories?
Sorry, something isnt right.
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Yacov, if she can be her "true self" on the forum, why the hell is she defending Islam here?
Frankly I think it is time to stop humoring her and to give a BIG apology to Scotch, BabylonianJew, and others who were unjustly banned and attacked for no reason.
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Yes they are called appeasing liberal idiots
AND I would bet my last dollar they have never picked that piece of trash up and actually READ it....they are just chirping the PC line.
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Yacov, you of all people know better than to repeat this drivel.
No comment about my request to apologize to and reinstate Scotch and BJ?
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I am not going to vote (YET), but I have to agree with Kellymaureen completely. You just lost a lot of trust with us, Sarah, and making a whiny thread does not help your case at all. You can't take back what you said about Islam being misunderstood, but your subsequent postings are only doing further damage to your credibility.
Maybe you AREN'T deliberately engaging in taqqiyah, but the fact that after nearly a year here you would make such a statement tells me that everything Chaim has said has gone in one ear, out the other. Shame, shame. :(
And to think how much of a chance I gave you and how kind I was. The whole entire forum has bent over backwards for you since day one. I even stuck by you when you got a good member (Scotch) banned for no reason at all. I don't think you can do anything to fix stuff now.
And thus starts the usual witch hunt!! If Sarah was a short term member I would be inclined to agree with some of the above post. Lets face it Sarah has been muslim for most of her life as far as I can see she has made very good progress in her understanding of the evils of islam. Lets face it habits and teachings of a lifetime don't die over night. She has tried to be a loyal member of the forum despite her families wishes. Lets cut her some slack. Lets point out where she is going wrong in a helpful way. The thought that she is hanging around this group for a year to trick us is comical. She has about as much chance of convincing us about the wonders of islam as a snowball has a chance in hell.
Scotch was bad new he deserved to be banned.
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Sarah deliberately started flaming Scotch for no reason, and Scotch was banned when he started insulting her back. How in the world do you think that was right?
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If islam is allowed to be defended here Im out, this is absurd.
No its true she cant convince anyone, but to be allowed to even TRY to defend that garbage HERE is unreal, I must say Im amazed and pretty shocked.
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Kelly, I agree with your sentiments, but your reaction here is disgraceful and cowardly.
I can't believe you are doing this either.
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Im sorry you feel that way, but I will not watch that sick disgusting death cult defended...AND be told that I "misunderstand" islam in any way....I understand it perfectly.
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Sarah deliberately started flaming Scotch for no reason, and Scotch was banned when he started insulting her back. How in the world do you think that was right?
I wont argue the point about scotch because I don't remember the specifics but I seem to remember other issues that did him in also. What your talking about may have been the finishing touch.
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Kelly, you are being a coward, plain and simple.
I won't kiss anyone's ass: not Sarah's, and not yours.
This is completely childish and cowardly. We need people on the forum like you. But you would rather throw a hissyfit because people disagree with you.
Chaim would be disgusted.
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Sarah deliberately started flaming Scotch for no reason, and Scotch was banned when he started insulting her back. How in the world do you think that was right?
I wont argue the point about scotch because I don't remember the specifics but I seem to remember other issues that did him in also. What your talking about may have been the finishing touch.
He was a little over-the-top in being anti-black, but the vast majority of the forum is bending over backwards to suck up to that Sharpton groupie Erica. I never thought he did anything that wrong.
Sarah should have been banned for picking on Scotch. Instead, Scotch was banned for defending himself.
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She is honest because if she were practicing Takiyah she'd be saying Islam is a peaceful religion and Muhammad is a prophet etc so unless she says that she's not practicing Takiyah. Besides she's 15 according to her profile so how could a child practice Takiyah?
Perhaps she's practicing Takiyah by saying she's 15 ;)
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Perhaps, but if I want to watch anyone fawning over islam I can go to one of many liberal boards...they also think the koran is a harmless book of fables. Watching it happen here is ridiculous.
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You raise a good point, Daniel. How do we know she is female? How do we know she is 15? Why should we take anything she says at face value?
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That is such a terrible waste...Kelly.... The Qur'an environmentally friendly and are recyclable no? You could have it framed next to the toilet... "In case of emergency: break glass" O0 I'll admit that it may not be as good as the Ol-Charmin.... :o
But if we use the Koran as toilet paper, wouldn't that just make our tuchuses dirtier? :)
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I believe Sarah to be a Walid Shoebat junior, the only difference being she was never a terrorist to begin with :)
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Youre kidding right.
Walid IS an ex muslim...and KNOWS that islam and the koran are evil....goodness why dont we ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali about that book of fables, that poor woman had to fight for her freedom from islam AND they are still trying to kill her for telling us the TRUTH about it.
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Kelly stick to your guns don't leave the forum no one is defending islam at least not our hard core members. Sarah is a teenager who is trying to find her way. I haven't seen the offending statements by her but if she persists in talking up islam she may be trowing us a curve. We will get it sorted out.
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I am not going to vote (YET), but I have to agree with Kellymaureen completely. You just lost a lot of trust with us, Sarah, and making a whiny thread does not help your case at all. You can't take back what you said about Islam being misunderstood, but your subsequent postings are only doing further damage to your credibility.
Maybe you AREN'T deliberately engaging in taqqiyah, but the fact that after nearly a year here you would make such a statement tells me that everything Chaim has said has gone in one ear, out the other. Shame, shame. :(
And to think how much of a chance I gave you and how kind I was. The whole entire forum has bent over backwards for you since day one. I even stuck by you when you got a good member (Scotch) banned for no reason at all. I don't think you can do anything to fix stuff now.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! BIG THUMBS DOWN!!! >:(
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Thanks Yacov, but really I cant stand to see islam defended in any way, especially on THIS forum of all places. Islam and muslims are deplorable, its a vile blood cult, indefensable in my opinion.
At least I have my next ask JTF question, Im curious to see what the answer will be...."should islam be allowed to be defeneded in ANY way and by ANY person on this forum" better yet, to see if Chaim thinks that there IS any defense of any aspect of islam.
Ill know after that.
Kelly, I think there's a big difference between "defending" something and "understanding" it. Even though Sarah does not practice nor subscribe to Islam, she does have a background in it and have some knowledge about it. So if she states that you misunderstood something about Islam or the Koran, that is not the equivalent of "defending" it. Understanding and clarification of something does not add up to an agreement or endorsement about it.
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I think that telling me I "misunderstand" the koran is pretty offensive.
We all understand islam, the REAL islam or we wouldnt be here.
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Sorry I take back the previous post Sara, I realized that it wasnt you. Sorry.
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You raise a good point, Daniel. How do we know she is female? How do we know she is 15? Why should we take anything she says at face value?
Yes, and how do we know that you're a male and really a fan of Chaim? You could be an impostor too. Erica could be some white dude, and I might be Braziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilia!
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You raise a good point, Daniel. How do we know she is female? How do we know she is 15? Why should we take anything she says at face value?
Yes, and how do we know that you're a male and really a fan of Chaim? You could be an impostor too. Erica could be some white dude, and I might be Braziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilia!
Naa erica definitly ain't white- I remember her making some videos wayy back ( you still got a page?),
- hey maybe im black ;) but then again why should I be, because if I was black I would get affirmitive action.
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Youre kidding right.
Walid IS an ex muslim...and KNOWS that islam and the koran are evil....goodness why dont we ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali about that book of fables, that poor woman had to fight for her freedom from islam AND they are still trying to kill her for telling us the TRUTH about it.
I don't know who that second person you mention is. But I believe for all intents and purposes that Sarah is just like a Walid Shoebat, Wafa Sultan, and Nonie Darwish.
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It doesnt matter what IS real, it matters that the preception of REAL caused people to buy it, and to allow the defence of islam here, based on confusion and a story, which may or may not be true, who knows.
I know ex muslims and when that defence of the koran came up, a HUGE red flag went up, especially after a year here....sorry guys, something isnt right.
I never asked anyone to believe anything about me, I simply stated my beliefs and my loyalties, and havent waivered from them.
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I don't even recall what Scotch said.
I don't remember exactly but he use to get a little nutty at times. He got all the usual warnings before he was banned so it was justified.
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But I believe for all intents and purposes that Sarah is just like a Walid Shoebat, Wafa Sultan, and Nonie Darwish.
Have you ever seen any of them defend islam or the koran...I sure havent.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, is from somalia, lived the REAL islam, she left it, and now travels (with heavily armed guards, imagine her having to do that, because the misunderstanders of that lovely book of stories want to cut her head off) around telling the TRUTH about islam, shes a lovely woman, very soft spoken, very intelligent, and NEVER defends islam even though her life is under constant threat.
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I think that telling me I "misunderstand" the koran is pretty offensive.
We all understand islam, the REAL islam or we wouldnt be here.
Just because she was stating that you misunderstood the context of something in the Koran, that doesn't make it offensive or mean that she's trying to say that the Koran is not evil, the same way that if I happen to misunderstand something positive about the Gospels and you correct me about it, that doesn't mean that you think the Gospels are negative. I wouldn't take offense to it or be suspect of you (with the exception of telling me that I'll burn in hell if I don't accept Jesus as my lord, savior, and messiah). I would just understand that since you have the background in it, that you might have a better understanding of it than me, and I would simply note that without taking any offense.
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But I believe for all intents and purposes that Sarah is just like a Walid Shoebat, Wafa Sultan, and Nonie Darwish.
Have you ever seen any of them defend islam or the koran...I sure havent.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, is from somalia, lived the REAL islam, she left it, and now travels (with heavily armed guards, imagine her having to do that, because the misunderstanders of that lovely book of stories want to cut her head off) around telling the TRUTH about islam, shes a lovely woman, very soft spoken, very intelligent, and NEVER defends islam even though her life is under constant threat.
Again, I never recalled Sarah ever defending Islam. A statement that you misunderstood something is not equivalent to defending something.
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So you feel the koran isnt evil.....amazing.
read the thread for yourself.
Taquiyya practising muslims have been telling us since 911 that we are taking the koran "out of context"
I wonder if those poor souls jumping from the towers were thinking how peaceful the koran is, and how out of context we are taking it...
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Thanks Yacov, but really I cant stand to see islam defended in any way, especially on THIS forum of all places. Islam and muslims are deplorable, its a vile blood cult, indefensable in my opinion.
At least I have my next ask JTF question, Im curious to see what the answer will be...."should islam be allowed to be defeneded in ANY way and by ANY person on this forum" better yet, to see if Chaim thinks that there IS any defense of any aspect of islam.
Ill know after that.
Kelly, I think there's a big difference between "defending" something and "understanding" it. Even though Sarah does not practice nor subscribe to Islam, she does have a background in it and have some knowledge about it. So if she states that you misunderstood something about Islam or the Koran, that is not the equivalent of "defending" it. Understanding and clarification of something does not add up to an agreement or endorsement about it.
Well said - Daniel! 8;)
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Thanks Yacov, but really I cant stand to see islam defended in any way, especially on THIS forum of all places. Islam and muslims are deplorable, its a vile blood cult, indefensable in my opinion.
At least I have my next ask JTF question, Im curious to see what the answer will be...."should islam be allowed to be defeneded in ANY way and by ANY person on this forum" better yet, to see if Chaim thinks that there IS any defense of any aspect of islam.
Ill know after that.
Kelly, I think there's a big difference between "defending" something and "understanding" it. Even though Sarah does not practice nor subscribe to Islam, she does have a background in it and have some knowledge about it. So if she states that you misunderstood something about Islam or the Koran, that is not the equivalent of "defending" it. Understanding and clarification of something does not add up to an agreement or endorsement about it.
Well said - Daniel! 8;)
Yes I think Daniel makes a very good point here!
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Daniel do not lecture me on how "out of context" I may be taking the koran, or try to get me to see the side of ANY muslim, they are deplorable.
If you are trying to get me to see her side, and what she said, its never going to happen, I read that book, I am not retarded, and read with great comprehension, I also consulted my ex muslim friends who assured me beyond a doubt I was reading that perfect, and understanding it perfectly. I am almost 32 years old, no child will be telling me what I do and do not understand.
The koran is NOT a harmless book of fables, and quite honestly I cannot believe I have to tell anyone on a forum like this that fact. I UNDERSTAND the koran perfectly, any muslim, would say its harmless, any non muslim will know better, evidently Im alone on this, so be it.
Should I stay I would appreciate it if you did not address me directly again.
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:::D
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Daniel do not lecture me on how "out of context" I may be taking the koran, or try to get me to see the side of ANY muslim, they are deplorable.
If you are trying to get me to see her side, and what she said, its never going to happen, I read that book, I am not retarded, and read with great comprehension, I also consulted my ex muslim friends who assured me beyond a doubt I was reading that perfect, and understanding it perfectly. I am almost 32 years old, no child will be telling me what I do and do not understand.
The koran is NOT a harmless book of fables, and quite honestly I cannot believe I have to tell anyone on a forum like this that fact. I UNDERSTAND the koran perfectly, any muslim, would say its harmless, any non muslim will know better, evidently Im alone on this, so be it.
Should I stay I would appreciate it if you did not address me directly again.
I'm not trying to lecture you and never meant any offense. I apologize if you took it that way. I was merely trying to state a general concept, nothing personal to you or to the issue at hand.
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Oh man, that was such a simple request ::)
AND you were lecturing, but perhaps I took that out of context ;)
anyway, good luck.
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I'd like to know why Sarah is sitting back watching the forum like this. This is a good example of deceit no? I am open about my suspect of Sarah after over a year of direct messaging. Some messages are very understandable and some are not.
Of course I agree 110% with Kelly. She's not at all being a "coward" or anything of the sort. If you happen to search this thread. This entire debate has nothing really to do with Kelly but MYSELF, ME, OL-MAR ZUTRA, period, end, full stop.
I read one of Sarah's recent posts calling the Israeli Forces "occupiers" to which I, ME, posted defending Israel and demanding clearity to which another postor also stated that her post was very suspect. After a few posts, little Miss Muslohide sitting back watching this forum break into chaos, messaged me directly and questioned me, insulted me, telling me what's in the Torah when something clearly is not. If any and all members on this forum think that I have EVER been dishonest, deceitful or not answering any and all messages or posts with factual correctness and many referances to state thus... Bring it on or ban me. I'm sick of all this quibble all because of ME DEFENDING THE ISRAELI FORCES AND DEMANDING CLEARITY FOR A [censored] RESPONSE FROM A MUSLIM, "Ex" MUSLIM or so called "Noahide"......
Speak up now or forever hold your peace.... This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Kelly.... but ME. If Sarah has a problem, let her answer it publically since she's probably online eating potato chips laughing at all of these silly posts.... To Hell with her to... How do ya'll like that. I'm sick of this stupid fcuking thread!!!
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Thanks. Yes, I think you did. Perhaps you personalized things too much both from me and Sarah as well. I hope I'm not saying anything offensive or out of line here. Just an observation :)
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Wait a second, she was allowed on THIS forum to say that the Israeli's are "occupiers" and is still here....confused, lost, misunderstood, and IM leaving because of it.
Amazing :-\
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I'd like to know why Sarah is sitting back watching the forum like this. This is a good example of deceit no? I am open about my suspect of Sarah after over a year of direct messaging. Some messages are very understandable and some are not.
Of course I agree 110% with Kelly. She's not at all being a "coward" or anything of the sort. If you happen to search this thread. This entire debate has nothing really to do with Kelly but MYSELF, ME, OL-MAR ZUTRA, period, end, full stop.
I read one of Sarah's recent posts calling the Israeli Forces "occupiers" to which posted defending Israel and demanding clearity to which another postor also stated that her post was very suspect. After a few posts, little Miss Muslohide sitting back watching this forum break into chaos, messaged me directly and questioned me, insulted me, telling me what's in the Torah when something clearly is not. If any and all members on this forum think that I have EVER been dishonest, deceitful or not answering any and all messages or posts with factual correctness and many referances to state thus... Bring it on or ban me. I'm sick of all this quibble all because of ME DEFENDING THE ISRAELI FORCES AND DEMANDING CLEARITY FOR A [censored] RESPONSE FROM A MUSLIM, "Ex" MUSLIM or so called "Noahide"......
Speak up now or forever hold your peace.... This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Kelly.... but ME. If Sarah has a problem, let her answer it publically since she's probably online eating potato chips laughing at all of these silly posts.... To Hell with her to... How do ya'll like that. I'm sick of this stupid fcuking thread!!!
Perhaps Sarah isn't currently on the forum right now and that's why she's not responding. All I know is that I've chatted with her several times on Yahoo Messenger and find her to be an extremely pleasant, intelligent, and sincere young lady.
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Thanks. Yes, I think you did. Perhaps you personalized things too much both from me and Sarah as well. I hope I'm not saying anything offensive or out of line here. Just an observation
Sorry that was sarcasm.....and no I didnt misunderstand you and especially not her.
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Oh, Mar, certainly you took occupier"out of context. ::)
Im sure it just means that they are living on land thats rightfully theirs.:P
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Good for you. I've have received and responded to her messages for over a year and I thought that as well. Again, all of this idiotic shiit was due to one of HER posts which I questioned as she stated, unless she has pulled it by now, the IDF as "occupiers". Even another JTF'er posted right after mine saying it was suspect.... She insulted me directly and I reported this to Yacov with her posts... Funny, how I predicted that all of this would happen hey Yacov? I said I wanted you to know and see this in case it blows up....
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This kid is 15, observation here she is a KID!
I think alot of what has been said needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
And kellymaureen 100% agree with you,
this is a Jewish board not Islamic,
and a defending of a religion that supports rape, sex with animals and babies, has no place in the civilzed world.
She has been here over a year, and needs to grow up, or has she not learnt one thing will being here.
Banning members because of a child, you need to rethink that. IMHO.
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Thank you Infidel :)
This kid is 15, observation here she is a KID!
Then perhaps she should not be debating with adults if she cannot handle the conversations. I am sure there are boards for teenagers or children.
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Thank you Infidel :)
This kid is 15, observation here she is a KID!
Then perhaps she should not be debating with adults if she cannot handle the conversations. I am sure there are boards for teenagers or children.
many of us here are teenagers and it is important for everyone to debate.
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Agreed! Funny I think I have a message here stating she was 15 a year and a half ago? Kelly, I should have thought of that.... ;)
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Of course, but to use that as an excuse for what has been said is not acceptable, if teenagers want to debate with adults then they need to also be responsible for their words.
As my wise old dad said, have as many opionions as you like, just make sure that they are educated ones, once it comes out of your mouth, you own it ;)
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Agreed! Funny I think I have a message here stating she was 15 a year and a half ago? Kelly, I should have thought of that....
Born in a leap year maybe?
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Thank you Infidel :)
This kid is 15, observation here she is a KID!
Then perhaps she should not be debating with adults if she cannot handle the conversations. I am sure there are boards for teenagers or children.
many of us here are teenagers and it is important for everyone to debate.
Assuming Sarah is really who and what she says she is, I find her to be just as intelligent and capable of effective debate just as much as most adults if not more.
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Of course, but to use that as an excuse for what has been said is not acceptable, if teenagers want to debate with adults then they need to also be responsible for their words.
As my wise old dad said, have as many opionions as you like, just make sure that they are educated ones, once it comes out of your mouth, you own it ;)
I can agree with that. If one can't debate then certainly they should keep their mouth shut, but if one can they should not be silenced because of age.
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Certainly, if saying that the IDF are occupiers, yep, thats intelligence.
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Yes, so once you say it, you own it, unless you can explain why you were wrong to say it.
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Sarah, when you come back on here, could you please clarify what you meant when you said "occupiers"?
I don't get it. Sarah and Kelly were exchanging such sweet compliments only yesterday :(
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She said I misunderstood her or I took it out of context or something like that. You know, I'll bet that the entire Muslim World wishes they had the same support from Jews and Christians as one of their own is getting this evening..... Fcuk it! Blame the Jews... The Jews are OCCUPYING P-LESTINIAN LAND....GO BACK TO POLAND! YOU THIEVES, WHO STOLE THE LAND FROM THE ARABS.... Gees, I'm actually starting to sound like a Muslim.....perhaps I'll convert :-\
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I have gotten responses from Sarah in regards to random posts which impressed her..If she was practicing Takiya, i don't think she would have responded to anyhting I had to say..
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I dont hate her as a person, however I cannot and will not show respect to a muslim and as I said I hope she REALLY does leave islam, its no place for a human, especially a female human, a female human with their whole life ahead of them.
We are grasping at straws now, when someone says the IDF are "occupiers" how many things can that mean. And if I am not mistaken there was also a comment made, that caused a banning about Israel killing "innocent palestinkians" a while back....there is NO taking those things out of context.
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I have gotten responses from Sarah in regards to random posts which impressed her..If she was practicing Takiya, i don't think she would have responded to anyhting I had to say..
Were these responses this evening concerning this thread?
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Saying the IDF are occupiers is just ignorance, all though there is an occupation in Israel.
Of course that is the Arab occupation of Jewish land in Judea, Samaria and Gaza...
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Yes, so once you say it, you own it, unless you can explain why you were wrong to say it.
I'm not trying to defend Sarah here or claim to know what she meant since I don't recall ever seeing the post in the first place. But I'd like to offer a "possibility" of how she might have meant it. When terms are thrown around so frequently by the media and many people in general, it's possible for one of us to use a term that is inappropriate without even realizing it. For example, on the first Ask JTF program, I made reference to the "West Bank" to which Chaim corrected me saying that that's not the appropriate term to call this land, and that it is supposed to be referred to as Judea and Samaria. I didn't mean any offense by saying West Bank. I was just so accustomed and conditioned to saying it since that's how the media and many people refer to it. Another poster used the term "Pales tinians" to which Chaim stated that he thought the poster was being a wise guy. The poster made it abundantly clear in the following weeks that he was not trying to be a wise guy. So here too, the media and many people in general always use this term to the point where one of us might use it not realizing that it's an inappropriate or offensive term. Since the media is always referring to the "occupied territories" and the "Israeli occupation" it can condition people to just accept and use these terms without even realizing the connotation attached to these terms. So again, I'm not defending Sarah or stating that this was the case. I merely ponder the "possibility" that this might have been the case. I hope Sarah will clarify this herself when she is back on here.
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I have gotten responses from Sarah in regards to random posts which impressed her..If she was practicing Takiya, i don't think she would have responded to anyhting I had to say..
Were these responses this evening concerning this thread?
No, I made a metaphor of the universe and heaven and she responded, "wow"..
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Yes, so once you say it, you own it, unless you can explain why you were wrong to say it.
I'm not trying to defend Sarah here or claim to know what she meant since I don't recall ever seeing the post in the first place. But I'd like to offer a "possibility" of how she might have meant it. When terms are thrown around so frequently by the media and many people in general, it's possible for one of us to use a term that is inappropriate without even realizing it. For example, on the first Ask JTF program, I made reference to the "West Bank" to which Chaim corrected me saying that that's not the appropriate term to call this land, and that it is supposed to be referred to as Judea and Samaria. I didn't mean any offense by saying West Bank. I was just so accustomed and conditioned to saying it since that's how the media and many people refer to it. Another poster used the term "Pales tinians" to which Chaim stated that he thought the poster was being a wise guy. The poster made it abundantly clear in the following weeks that he was not trying to be a wise guy. So here too, the media and many people in general always use this term to the point where one of us might use it not realizing that it's an inappropriate or offensive term. Since the media is always referring to the "occupied territories" and the "Israeli occupation" it can condition people to just accept and use these terms without even realizing the connotation attached to these terms. So again, I'm not defending Sarah or stating that this was the case. I merely ponder the "possibility" that this might have been the case. I hope Sarah will clarify this herself when she is back on here.
Calling it the West Bank is one thing, but the term "occupation" has a clear meaning. It is always used to mean that Israel is morally wrong and "occupying" Arab land.
Except when I say it in reference to the Arab occupation of Jewish land
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Is it possible for one to be a Muslim and a Noahide? Muslohide :::D Can someone please tell me where The Seven Sleepers of Ephesus is in the Torah? Someone, who studies the Bible who I will not mention, told me it is in the Torah but the Jews couldn't decide how many sleepers there were. The Muslims apparently knew. Hell, they added a dog for comfort... O0
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
Wow!
During my Hebrew class at the Public High school my teacher lets me give a short speech on Friday and I get all the liberal s*** thrown at me by the other kids, but I know that I am right and they still have not been able to win with 15-1. We are right and they can't prove us wrong, so instead they label us and de-legitimize us, but still we remain right.
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
You child really said that? You really went down and grossed out the teacher? I do hope you lodge a complaint to the Principal and the schoolboard... G-d Bless you.....
Ooops, I'm supposed to be playing for the other team... Damn you woman... May Allah strike you down with lightening from the heavens filled with virgins and dead Arabs....
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
btw watch out because the FBI has a bad habit of getting involved in our people's business....
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Oh sorry, I didnt mean to take away from the "spirit" of this thread, but yes, I ripped the teacher a new one, my kid is rather like me lol....so he held his own for a while, but of course he cant say the things I said to that liberal pansy of a teacher....and yes I requested Adam be moved to a different social studies class.
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
Wow, you ROCK! That takes some serious fortitude, you are indeed a righteous woman.
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
Kelly, I'm not arguing about the definition of "occupiers." You and I both know what it means. But it's possible that others don't and may accidentally use the term inappropriately out of ignorance and naivety and not out of hostility or antagonism.
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When refering to the IDF, one NEVER makes a mistake when they refer to them as the "occupiers", people who say it, mean it.
Wow, you ROCK! That takes some serious fortitude, you are indeed a righteous woman
Thanks, but all it takes is knowing the truth, and having some libtard try to mess with my sons mind.
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Ooops, I'm supposed to be playing for the other team... Damn you woman... May Allah strike you down with lightening from the heavens filled with virgins and dead Arabs....
If Im getting 72 virgins, can you make that firemen and marines......
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
btw watch out because the FBI has a bad habit of getting involved in our people's business....
Yes, and Erica, Sarah, and myself are undercover FBI agents infiltrating this forum to bring you guys down! :o
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
btw watch out because the FBI has a bad habit of getting involved in our people's business....
Yes, and Erica, Sarah, and myself are undercover FBI agents infiltrating this forum to bring you guys down! :o
If you really dont think that they are FBI people that monitor this forum you are truly ignorant....
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They can monitor me all they like, I am not breaking the law and so far as I know its not YET illegal to say anything against islam in the US.
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Ooops, I'm supposed to be playing for the other team... Damn you woman... May Allah strike you down with lightening from the heavens filled with virgins and dead Arabs....
If Im getting 72 virgins, can you make that half firemen, and half soldiers O0
Ha ha! Good one! Although I don't think you'll need to make it to heaven to find this and be able to have this ;)
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
I wonder if Sarah has the same respect for the truth as Kelly's kid? Somehow I doubt it....
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
btw watch out because the FBI has a bad habit of getting involved in our people's business....
Yes, and Erica, Sarah, and myself are undercover FBI agents infiltrating this forum to bring you guys down! :o
If you really dont think that they are FBI people that monitor this forum you are truly ignorant....
I never said that. I'm sure there are government agents that are aware of my credit card purchases all the way down to what my favorite pizza topping is. I'm just goofin around.
Just as long as I'm not being monitored doing anything illegal (which I don't think I am), and the government isn't using my credit cards to make fraudulent purchases or stealing my identity, then I'm not going to concern myself about it too much.
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
btw watch out because the FBI has a bad habit of getting involved in our people's business....
Yes, and Erica, Sarah, and myself are undercover FBI agents infiltrating this forum to bring you guys down! :o
If you really dont think that they are FBI people that monitor this forum you are truly ignorant....
I never said that. I'm sure there are government agents that are aware of my credit card purchases all the way down to what my favorite pizza topping is. I'm just goofin around.
Just as long as I'm not being monitored doing anything illegal (which I don't think I am), and the government isn't using my credit cards to make fraudulent purchases or stealing my identity, then I'm not going to concern myself about it too much.
The FBI gets the a**** of people like us. You probably know the story of Irv Rubin who "committed suicide", more likely an FBI setup
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I am disappointed with the vast majority of this forum, sucking up to Erica and Sarah. The former has always been a black Nazi. I really thought Sarah was genuine, but that does not appear to be the case any longer.
I cannot believe this is JTF.
Sheesh. :(
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Funny then she lied to me.....again.... Oh, I forgot it is excusable because she's a kid. Perhaps when a 15 year old skinhead comes onto the forum... oops ex-skin head... the same rationalizations will be awarded? Ah, nevermind.. it is all a waste of my time.
I'm so impressed with this Kelly's deeds. Shes got bigger balls than 99% of Canadian society...
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
btw watch out because the FBI has a bad habit of getting involved in our people's business....
Yes, and Erica, Sarah, and myself are undercover FBI agents infiltrating this forum to bring you guys down! :o
If you really dont think that they are FBI people that monitor this forum you are truly ignorant....
I never said that. I'm sure there are government agents that are aware of my credit card purchases all the way down to what my favorite pizza topping is. I'm just goofin around.
Just as long as I'm not being monitored doing anything illegal (which I don't think I am), and the government isn't using my credit cards to make fraudulent purchases or stealing my identity, then I'm not going to concern myself about it too much.
The FBI gets the a**** of people like us. You probably know the story of Irv Rubin who "committed suicide", more likely an FBI setup
What are you saying? Irv Rubin really didn't commit suicide? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Chaim stated many times that Irv Rubin committed suicide. Do you disagree?
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
btw watch out because the FBI has a bad habit of getting involved in our people's business....
Yes, and Erica, Sarah, and myself are undercover FBI agents infiltrating this forum to bring you guys down! :o
If you really dont think that they are FBI people that monitor this forum you are truly ignorant....
I never said that. I'm sure there are government agents that are aware of my credit card purchases all the way down to what my favorite pizza topping is. I'm just goofin around.
Just as long as I'm not being monitored doing anything illegal (which I don't think I am), and the government isn't using my credit cards to make fraudulent purchases or stealing my identity, then I'm not going to concern myself about it too much.
The FBI gets the a**** of people like us. You probably know the story of Irv Rubin who "committed suicide", more likely an FBI setup
What are you saying? Irv Rubin really didn't commit suicide? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Chaim stated many times that Irv Rubin committed suicide. Do you disagree?
I find it difficult to believe that a man of Irv Rubin's strength and beliefs would commit suicide. It's very doubtful to me....
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Irv's wife Shelley says he committed suicide but she has her suspicians...
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I'm so impressed with this Kelly's deeds
Im not trying to be impressive, Ive worked hard to raise him right, and I can get VERY mean and VERY nasty when some liberal pansy tries to undo what Ive done....never mess with a mother ;)
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Even if he did commit suicide it was still because of the FBI who put him in jail and caused him to suffer greatly...
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the way america is going, you'll have state raised children like us here in Canada or in Britian.... :'(
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I'm so impressed with this Kelly's deeds
Im not trying to be impressive, Ive worked hard to raise him right, and I can get VERY mean and VERY nasty when some liberal pansy tries to undo what Ive done....never mess with a mother ;)
You should be proud even if you were not trying to earn pride here....
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I am, hes an awesome kid....and quite a defencemen ;)
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Funny then she lied to me.....again.... Oh, I forgot it is excusable because she's a kid. Perhaps when a 15 year old skinhead comes onto the forum... oops ex-skin head... the same rationalizations will be awarded? Ah, nevermind.. it is all a waste of my time.
I'm so impressed with this Kelly's deeds. Shes got bigger balls than 99% of Canadian society...
Ya know, it's interesting, for quite a while, I've been wondering why more people like you haven't been expressing these types of suspicions much sooner. Perhaps this was something that was an underlying issue and feeling for many posters on here which is just coming out now. It's a similar situation to the Allen-T situation. I was wondering how so many Christians on here weren't taking issue with the concept that Jews can't achieve salvation without accepting Jesus. So I wasn't too surprised when the issue came up and exploded on here. I guess it was just an underlying unspoken issue all along (much like this one). I wasn't surprised that that issue happened, just surprised that it involved Allen-T.
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Chaim has said how Irv Rubin was a traitor who called for the death penalty for the American hero Jonathan Pollard.
I am unaware of Rubin having said such a thing. The man was a director of the JDL, I find it hard to believe he would say such a thing.
If he did he was wrong, but that doesnt change the crimes the FBI did to him.
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Even if he did commit suicide it was still because of the FBI who put him in jail and caused him to suffer greatly...
Yes, and the FBI also put Chaim in jail where he suffered greatly. But he didn't commit suicide.
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Even if he did commit suicide it was still because of the FBI who put him in jail and caused him to suffer greatly...
Yes, and the FBI also put Chaim in jail where he suffered greatly. But he didn't commit suicide.
That doesn't make it any more right that he was put in jail.
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Even if he did commit suicide it was still because of the FBI who put him in jail and caused him to suffer greatly...
Yes, and the FBI also put Chaim in jail where he suffered greatly. But he didn't commit suicide.
That doesn't make it any more right that he was put in jail.
We weren't discussing whether or not it was right. We were discussing whether or not Irv Rubin committed suicide or if it was a mass FBI conspiracy that offed him.
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Yes, so once you say it, you own it, unless you can explain why you were wrong to say it.
I'm not trying to defend Sarah here or claim to know what she meant since I don't recall ever seeing the post in the first place. But I'd like to offer a "possibility" of how she might have meant it. When terms are thrown around so frequently by the media and many people in general, it's possible for one of us to use a term that is inappropriate without even realizing it. For example, on the first Ask JTF program, I made reference to the "West Bank" to which Chaim corrected me saying that that's not the appropriate term to call this land, and that it is supposed to be referred to as Judea and Samaria. I didn't mean any offense by saying West Bank. I was just so accustomed and conditioned to saying it since that's how the media and many people refer to it. Another poster used the term "Pales tinians" to which Chaim stated that he thought the poster was being a wise guy. The poster made it abundantly clear in the following weeks that he was not trying to be a wise guy. So here too, the media and many people in general always use this term to the point where one of us might use it not realizing that it's an inappropriate or offensive term. Since the media is always referring to the "occupied territories" and the "Israeli occupation" it can condition people to just accept and use these terms without even realizing the connotation attached to these terms. So again, I'm not defending Sarah or stating that this was the case. I merely ponder the "possibility" that this might have been the case. I hope Sarah will clarify this herself when she is back on here.
Calling it the West Bank is one thing, but the term "occupation" has a clear meaning. It is always used to mean that Israel is morally wrong and "occupying" Arab land.
Except when I say it in reference to the Arab occupation of Jewish land
Maybe she meant that the Arab Nazis there were living under "military occupation", a technical term which means Judea and Samaria weren't officially annexed by The Israeli Government. Judea and Samaria are under Israeli military rule, not sovereign Israeli rule because the self-hating Israelis didn't annex it yet as they have Eastern Jerusalem and The Golan Heights.
I think Sarah is just brainwashed and needs some deprogramming away from her Muslim environment. She told me that last year, her Muslim school was working to help The PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis but this year she got them to help orphans instead. She was able to do this because her classmates voted her in as Class President even thought she wasn't running. Now they made her recite form The Muslim Nazi Koran as part of being President and I said she should resign from the position but her teachers won't let her. Also, her mom made her go to the mosque for Muslim Nazi Ramadan.
It's tough to survive in such an environment. I understand that and I think we should all be supportive and helpful, yet we have to correct any lies so that we are not letting other members believe such things or allow them to go unquestioned.
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Funny then she lied to me.....again.... Oh, I forgot it is excusable because she's a kid. Perhaps when a 15 year old skinhead comes onto the forum... oops ex-skin head... the same rationalizations will be awarded? Ah, nevermind.. it is all a waste of my time.
I'm so impressed with this Kelly's deeds. Shes got bigger balls than 99% of Canadian society...
Ya know, it's interesting, for quite a while, I've been wondering why more people like you haven't been expressing these types of suspicions much sooner. Perhaps this was something that was an underlying issue and feeling for many posters on here which is just coming out now. It's a similar situation to the Allen-T situation. I was wondering how so many Christians on here weren't taking issue with the concept that Jews can't achieve salvation without accepting Jesus. So I wasn't too surprised when the issue came up and exploded on here. I guess it was just an underlying unspoken issue all along (much like this one). I wasn't surprised that that issue happened, just surprised that it involved Allen-T.
Actually, the two are uncomparable in all honesty. The dogma of Christianity is something entirely foreign to Judaism albeit with the same moral laws at its base. I was not a party to Allen T's debate and therefore cannot comment. Here it is a case of my being offended when someone, who has been on this forum for a very long time, and is, as I now see, a respected member of this forum call the Israeli Forces "occupiers".....to which I called on and demanded clearification....
The debates between Jew and Christian are theological ones and not comparable to this case of either honest misuse of words or something worse... This is my opinion brother... :)
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Even if he did commit suicide it was still because of the FBI who put him in jail and caused him to suffer greatly...
Yes, and the FBI also put Chaim in jail where he suffered greatly. But he didn't commit suicide.
That doesn't make it any more right that he was put in jail.
We weren't discussing whether or not it was right. We were discussing whether or not Irv Rubin committed suicide or if it was a mass FBI conspiracy that offed him.
Even if it wasn't a conspiracy, the FBI was still the cause of his death and the FBI wanted him to die. There were no public apologies for letting him commit suicide since they wanted it to happen.
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Now they made her recite form The Muslim Nazi Koran
Maybe you are just misunderstanding it ;), evidently I do
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call the Israeli Forces "occupiers".....to which I called on and demanded clearification....
You cannot get any clearer than that my dear.....its crystal clear what that means, if we are going to start splitting hairs about it lets just say that she was taken "out of context" like the good old koran and be done with it ::)....Mar i agree with you 100%
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I must say, this is one of the most childish things situations I have ever seen since I started on the JTF. Imagine, all, or most, of the most gifted members arguing over something so stupid as this...and as childish as this entire thread. It is a FACT that Sarah said the Israel Forces were "occupiers" and also that the fable of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus was in the Torah but the Jews couldn't decide how many where in the cave.... Why the Hell would I lie? If anyone cares to go back through all of my posts and tell me where I have lied, been deceitful and havent gone so far as to present credible reads and referances than please do so.
I didn't know anything about the Qur'an and Kelly until this post, I don't think or perhaps shortly before... This is rediculous and childish in all actuality...
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Funny then she lied to me.....again.... Oh, I forgot it is excusable because she's a kid. Perhaps when a 15 year old skinhead comes onto the forum... oops ex-skin head... the same rationalizations will be awarded? Ah, nevermind.. it is all a waste of my time.
I'm so impressed with this Kelly's deeds. Shes got bigger balls than 99% of Canadian society...
Ya know, it's interesting, for quite a while, I've been wondering why more people like you haven't been expressing these types of suspicions much sooner. Perhaps this was something that was an underlying issue and feeling for many posters on here which is just coming out now. It's a similar situation to the Allen-T situation. I was wondering how so many Christians on here weren't taking issue with the concept that Jews can't achieve salvation without accepting Jesus. So I wasn't too surprised when the issue came up and exploded on here. I guess it was just an underlying unspoken issue all along (much like this one). I wasn't surprised that that issue happened, just surprised that it involved Allen-T.
Actually, the two are uncomparable in all honesty. The dogma of Christianity is something entirely foreign to Judaism albeit with the same moral laws at its base. I was not a party to Allen T's debate and therefore cannot comment. Here it is a case of my being offended when someone, who has been on this forum for a very long time, and is, as I now see, a respected member of this forum call the Israeli Forces "occupiers".....to which I called on and demanded clearification....
The debates between Jew and Christian are theological ones and not comparable to this case of either honest misuse of words or something worse... This is my opinion brother... :)
The point that I was making was not comparing Christianity to Islam. The point that I was making was that these were both issues that I was wondering about for a while about why nobody was making any noise about this for a while, and then finally someone did make noise about it. For a while, I was wondering how it was that nobody on here was questioning or suspecting a former muzzie on here. I'm not surprised in the least that this issue is exploding now. I'm just surprised that it hasn't happened sooner. I never objected or suspected anything. But I'm surprised that many of you didn't say anything about this sooner.
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Perhaps because people were giving the benefit of the doubt, but then red flags just kept popping up to the extent that you simply cant ignore them any longer.
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Good point. I was suspect at first, of course. I believe she was banned no? Apparently she has build up immense credit with some of the JTF members which is ok. It is a personal choice. I can imagine that there are JTF members that do not like me too much but I'm not going to lose sleep over it...but than again I never did call the IF occupiars. I forgot to mention that Sarah said that most of the JTF members disagree with me and my views to which I responded to her that I very much doubt that considering I have actually read Rabbi Kahane's works which is more than I can say for her... Sorry, after a long drawn out, dumbed down discussion, my patience is wearing thin... :)
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Well I agree with you Mar, guess that puts me in the unpopular club, which is great, I think the company there is fantastic O0
I would think that anyone who called the IDF occupiers would have little to no credibility here, but instead, excuse upon excuse is made...so if I understand this, anyone joining, saying they are leaving islam, and that they are a confused kid can get away with saying such a vile and untrue thing, amazing, I just told off a "respected" teacher, got right in his face and in NO UNCERTAIN terms(and quite a few certain ones) told him he was wrong, and exactly what I thought of him on a personal level....and that same behavior is excused here because...she didnt know any better...after a whole year here......amazing.
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I never gave Sarah the benefit of the doubt since I never had I doubt about her in the first place.
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Thats fantastic....it looks like this issue has split the forum, mainly in her favor, but still split it....hmmm I have to wonder if that was the intention of this self pity thread...and if it was, congratulations, worked very well indeed.
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I never gave Sarah the benefit of the doubt since I never had I doubt about her in the first place.
That is ok. I doubted her in the very beginning. Than after many messages to me from her, which I sent one which is over a year old to Yacov identifying to him that I have never lied nor been deceitful to her but wished her success in leaving Islam, learning factual correctness and blessings be with her....
All was fine and dandy until I saw one of her posts identifying the IF as occupiers to which I questioned... than I get called names, insulted and the like... whatever whatever. As I said, I was only begging clearification and got my response and apparently much more...
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Thats fantastic....it looks like this issue has split the forum, mainly in her favor, but still split it....hmmm I have to wonder if that was the intention of this self pity thread...and if it was, congratulations, worked very well indeed.
I don't know if this was her intention. I think that she sensed some people had a problem with her Muslim background and wanted to get a clearer idea of how many people on here had a problem with her, perhaps so she could better make up her mind whether or not she'd like to continue remaining on this forum.
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Thats fantastic....it looks like this issue has split the forum, mainly in her favor, but still split it....hmmm I have to wonder if that was the intention of this self pity thread...and if it was, congratulations, worked very well indeed.
That was obviously the intention....imo. Well, it worked... I just cannot believe my questioning of this Muslohide's post lead to this... tragic yet laughable...
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I will say that on another thread that I said I was horrified after reading the koran, sura and haidth (and I think anyone on this forum would be if they were being honest) and Sarah, you DID tell me that I "must have misunderstood the koran if I was horrified" because it was nothing more than a "bunch of fables and stories"...which is completely untrue, it is a book of war, with the end result being dar al islam.
I read with perfect comprehension, AND have the benefit of 2 ex muslim friends who assure me that this nonsense about us silly infidels "misunderstanding" the koran is ridiculous, that its something that muslims will tell us to keep us off guard or make us doubt what we are reading.
Only YOU can decide what you are, what you believe, but I assure you that I understood perfectly what I read, and I am still horrified at what I read.
Islam is a blood cult, its followers are terrorists, and mohammad was a disgusting pedophile, war lord, and the goal of islam is to have the entire world run by muslims under sharia law. I will stand by these statements and be willing to leave the forum if the majority of people disagree with them.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=9305.msg92707#msg92707
is the thread in question
I will say that I sincerely hope that you do leave islam fully, and realize your full potential, with all the rights and freedoms that you are entitled to.
In all fairness, is it taqiyya if the person saying the things about Islam actually believes those things to be true? Is it taqiyya when a person is taught these things, and it is all he knows, and he simply repeats them? I think taqiyya has to involve active deception, not passive deception. I don't think it can properly be considered taqiyya considering the fact that she is 15 and is probably taught these things and even believes them to be true, things like "Islam is peace". In order for it to be taqiyya, she needs to KNOW that it's false, and lie about it in order to trick people. But maybe not? Is it still taqiyya if that person is taught these things because the ones teaching him want to spread these lies, and the person accepts them and in turn spreads the falsehoods to other people, thinking that they are telling people the truth? In effect, it has the same result, spreading falsehoods about Islam. Does it matter whether the person KNOWS that they are engaging in taqiyya or not? I think it does, which is why I don't believe that Sarah is engaging in it herself. I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she is simply repeating what she has been told, and she hasn't been told that what she is taught is taqiyya. After all, there are some branches of Islam that teach that Islam is legitimately a religion of peace, etc. I think Sarah belongs to that kind of branch of Islam.
Zeev, I am amazed to see you write that there are "branches of Islam" that are "legitimately a religion of peace". THERE IS ONLY ONE ISLAM AND THAT IS THE ISLAM OF THE KORAN AND THE HADITH, WHICH ARE NAZI BOOKS OF GENOCIDE. There are no "branches" of this evil terrorist religion that are peaceful. When you write that, you sound like George Bush, Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. If someone was born a Muslim but rejects jihad (the Islamic war to conquer the world and exterminate all non-Muslims), then they are no longer a Muslim.
The fact that Sarah defends aspects of Islam is unfortunate. It shows that she remains confused and conflicted about her identity. But Sarah's presence in our movement and her open mind does NOT represent any "branch" of Islam. All of the "branches" of Islam would literally murder someone like Sarah.
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There are Mooslims who practice Islam and Mooslims who do not. This is very similar to Jews who follow Judaism and those who follow Deformed "Judaism"...which is "Jewish" Socialism... Good post...
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perhaps so she could better make up her mind whether or not she'd like to continue remaining on this forum.
well we cant have that, how will intelligent, well read, educated adults KNOW that they are misunderstanding the koran.
no, I think it was more to get anyone who had doubts, or saw something else, to leave, which also worked, I do not need to hear any excuses, or hear any more defence of that vile hate filled war manual, I still support this cause, but not ANY defence of islam in ANY fashion, by ANY one, no excuses...there arent room for excuses here, this is a serious evil we are battling, and if its this easy to be sold on it, then we are in a WHOLE lot of trouble. I am staying long enough to ask my next question, then I will wish you all good luck, if this is how things are going, you'll need it.
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Yacov, that is very righteous of her, if it is true... I have no doubt what you say is true... About her, only time will tell. From your lips to HaShem's ears. If that is true though, why did she tell me she settled on her religion, implying that she was staying with Islam never mentioning Noahide? If she settled on Noahide than she has no intention of converting to Judiasm? Did she take you in?
I just know what she posted and wrote to me and what I posted and replied. This is what I'm going on....
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Yacov, Ive always liked you, even though we butted heads on that one thread.....
but honestly, I could tell you that I am the princess of the world....and that doesnt make it true. When she asked to come back, what on earth did you expect her to say, but there have been slip ups, like the koran thing, and the IDF occupier thing....keep watching, Ill stay in contact with a couple people here, so Ill find out eventually.
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Yacov, I was displaying how there are people who fallow Islam as discribed in the Qur'an and Jews who fallow the demands of Judaism of the Torah and those who do not. Of course you are correct, but I was clearifying the religious aspect for the readers... ;)
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Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them. I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.
When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.
btw watch out because the FBI has a bad habit of getting involved in our people's business....
Yes, and Erica, Sarah, and myself are undercover FBI agents infiltrating this forum to bring you guys down! :o
hey and don't forget Dannycookie also... :P
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Islam is only a religion.
I cant believe i have to say this here.....ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION
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Kelly, I don't think you should leave. First of all Chaim will say that Islam defending should be allowed so that we can improve debating skills. Second, this is probably the most anti-Islamic forum on the internet. If this doesn't do it for you then what will?
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Kelly, I don't think you should leave. First of all Chaim will say that Islam defending should be allowed so that we can improve debating skills. Second, this is probably the most anti-Islamic forum on the internet. If this doesn't do it for you then what will?
Actually, that is a good question/statement. If it is ok to defend Islam then it must also be ok to defend Nazism without being banned. In all honesty, I don't mind as I love educating these ignorami in open debate...as many of you have read and gained a few laughs... ;)
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Why do I need to improve my debating skills, Ive read the koran, the haidth, the sura, every book Robert Spencer has written, Im perfectly capable of debating a muslim, and have on many occasions, however its a waste of time, either they tell me that Im the silly infidel and ive simply "misunderstood" or if they see I know too much call me an islamophobe and move on....I dont think debate will win the war on islam.
Anyway, I dont need to be on here to support the movement.
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Yes I agree with you. There's no need to debate these evil scum. But, I do remember someone once asked a similar question and that was the response he gave.
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Thank you Infidel :)
This kid is 15, observation here she is a KID!
Then perhaps she should not be debating with adults if she cannot handle the conversations. I am sure there are boards for teenagers or children.
many of us here are teenagers and it is important for everyone to debate.
True but teenagers lack life experience. And when a kid is talking beyond their knowledge they are just trolls.
How can a teenager debate the raising of a family, holding down a full time job year after year, paying bills, owning a home, living a normal life outside the comforts of their parents house and warm fussy enviroment.
To walk in anothers shoes is to be there and do as they have done, not to guess and assume the know it all youth is right.
Its the same when Internet warriors proclaim the use of force, when they have never taken first blood.
Its called, common sense ...a 15 year old has little to add to an adult world, but learn from its elders.
Its called respect, which many of the internets teenagers lack in great amounts.
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Why do I need to improve my debating skills, Ive read the koran, the haidth, the sura, every book Robert Spencer has written, Im perfectly capable of debating a muslim, and have on many occasions, however its a waste of time, either they tell me that Im the silly infidel and ive simply "misunderstood" or if they see I know too much call me an islamophobe and move on....I dont think debate will win the war on islam.
Anyway, I dont need to be on here to support the movement.
G-d love you. You are funny. Of course your debating skills are fabulous but you must remember that this entire silly thread wasn't because of you, but me. You happened to have a similar experience with the same individual. So if anyone will leave it will be me not you. I'm not going anywhere because I support Jews, Jewry, Israel and righteous Gentiles..... You do the same, so no need to get in a twist... if you feel you've been wronged in anyway, have it out with that individual and be done with it..... That's the way I feel. One need never "sit idly by"... if you know what i mean?
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Why do I need to improve my debating skills, Ive read the koran, the haidth, the sura, every book Robert Spencer has written, Im perfectly capable of debating a muslim, and have on many occasions, however its a waste of time, either they tell me that Im the silly infidel and ive simply "misunderstood" or if they see I know too much call me an islamophobe and move on....I dont think debate will win the war on islam.
Anyway, I dont need to be on here to support the movement.
G-d love you. You are funny. Of course your debating skills are fabulous but you must remember that this entire silly thread wasn't because of you, but me. You happened to have a similar experience with the same individual. So if anyone will leave it will be me not you. I'm not going anywhere because I support Jews, Jewry, Israel and righteous Gentiles..... You do the same, so no need to get in a twist... if you feel you've been wronged in anyway, have it out with that individual and be done with it..... That's the way I feel. One need never "sit idly by"... if you know what i mean?
Lol well acutally its not her fault, people will do things that are wrong, as long as they are left to get away with it, Ive said my piece....sorry Mar, I took over your thread...I am a big mouth infidel arent I....you can have it back now :laugh:
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Wow Kelly, I really have to admire your principled stand. And you are 100% correct about the evil Islamic Nazi religion. The term "religion" is not necessarily a positive term, Kelly. Communism, Nazism and atheism are also "religions" in a sense. They are a set of beliefs, very evil beliefs but many people in history have worshipped at the altars of these false religions.
Kelly, JTF's position is clear: Islam is an utterly evil and monstrous Nazi religion that is committed to world conquest. There is no "moderate" or "peaceful" wing, branch or stream of Islam. As Chaim has said a million times, saying there are "moderate" Muslims is like saying there are "moderate" Nazis.
Your position on Islam is identical to the position of JTF and Chaim. But there are members of this forum who do not always agree with the positions of JTF and Chaim. Chaim does not believe in banning people who disagree with us unless they violate the rules of the forum. Chaim wants us to debate and persuade people, not ban them. There are two reasons for this policy: One, we have succeeded in many cases in changing people's minds about many issues and in making them see things more clearly. Two, even if we do not change certain people, it still sharpens our debating skills and makes the forum more interesting and provocative.
Kelly, you certainly should not leave. If there is any place where you belong, it is here! Sure, we are going have people whom we disagree with. But that's what we're here for, to change people for the better. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail, but we always have to try to bring people the truth. If we're not going to convince more people and educate more people, then what's the purpose of JTF? We want to become a mass movement to save America and Israel. That can't happen unless we persuade large numbers of people to join us, including some people who have been misled and have mistaken views.
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My thread? I might have been the one responsible for this silly and lower than grade 5 venture but I certainly didn't create this thread... :-\
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Lol I know, sorry the thread that was made because of you ;)
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Jimmy is right. You must consider this position. Like I said to Yacov, I had a feeling this was going to be blown far out of proportion.....
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I am all for debate and trying to get people to see the light, however statements that were made, and we dont need to keep repeating them, cant be tolerated based on 'debate' and there comes a time when you need to take a honest and hard look at the situation and judge for yourself whether or not you are being taken for a ride, banging your head against the wall for nothing, no progress, or if there is genuine progress. Mr Spencer uses the term " the mask slipped" alot in his writing, meaning if we take a good hard look at statements we can see the real meaning.....
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Jimmy, it is time we get rid of Sarah. We gave her an entire year to prove herself. She has proven she has not listened to a word Chaim has said.
Whether or not she would be persecuted by other Muslims is irrelevant. She has given us severe reason to doubt anything she has ever said to us and she is causing way too much division on this forum. If it is her or Kelly, she has to go.
Chaimfan
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Ok, I'm convinced she's a Muslim.. get her the HELL OFF this forum!
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I will say that on another thread that I said I was horrified after reading the koran, sura and haidth (and I think anyone on this forum would be if they were being honest) and Sarah, you DID tell me that I "must have misunderstood the koran if I was horrified" because it was nothing more than a "bunch of fables and stories"...which is completely untrue, it is a book of war, with the end result being dar al islam.
I read with perfect comprehension, AND have the benefit of 2 ex muslim friends who assure me that this nonsense about us silly infidels "misunderstanding" the koran is ridiculous, that its something that muslims will tell us to keep us off guard or make us doubt what we are reading.
Only YOU can decide what you are, what you believe, but I assure you that I understood perfectly what I read, and I am still horrified at what I read.
Islam is a blood cult, its followers are terrorists, and mohammad was a disgusting pedophile, war lord, and the goal of islam is to have the entire world run by muslims under sharia law. I will stand by these statements and be willing to leave the forum if the majority of people disagree with them.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=9305.msg92707#msg92707
is the thread in question
I will say that I sincerely hope that you do leave islam fully, and realize your full potential, with all the rights and freedoms that you are entitled to.
In all fairness, is it taqiyya if the person saying the things about Islam actually believes those things to be true? Is it taqiyya when a person is taught these things, and it is all he knows, and he simply repeats them? I think taqiyya has to involve active deception, not passive deception. I don't think it can properly be considered taqiyya considering the fact that she is 15 and is probably taught these things and even believes them to be true, things like "Islam is peace". In order for it to be taqiyya, she needs to KNOW that it's false, and lie about it in order to trick people. But maybe not? Is it still taqiyya if that person is taught these things because the ones teaching him want to spread these lies, and the person accepts them and in turn spreads the falsehoods to other people, thinking that they are telling people the truth? In effect, it has the same result, spreading falsehoods about Islam. Does it matter whether the person KNOWS that they are engaging in taqiyya or not? I think it does, which is why I don't believe that Sarah is engaging in it herself. I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she is simply repeating what she has been told, and she hasn't been told that what she is taught is taqiyya. After all, there are some branches of Islam that teach that Islam is legitimately a religion of peace, etc. I think Sarah belongs to that kind of branch of Islam.
Zeev, I am amazed to see you write that there are "branches of Islam" that are "legitimately a religion of peace". THERE IS ONLY ONE ISLAM AND THAT IS THE ISLAM OF THE KORAN AND THE HADITH, WHICH ARE NAZI BOOKS OF GENOCIDE. There are no "branches" of this evil terrorist religion that are peaceful. When you write that, you sound like George Bush, Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. If someone was born a Muslim but rejects jihad (the Islamic war to conquer the world and exterminate all non-Muslims), then they are no longer a Muslim.
The fact that Sarah defends aspects of Islam is unfortunate. It shows that she remains confused and conflicted about her identity. But Sarah's presence in our movement and her open mind does NOT represent any "branch" of Islam. All of the "branches" of Islam would literally murder someone like Sarah.
OK, there was a misunderstanding here. I didn't say that there are branches that are legitimate branches of a religion of peace, I merely said that some "Muslims" are taught that Islam is a religion of peace even though those teachings are not representative of true Islam. Those "branches" attempt to show that Islam is legitimately a religion of peace even though we all know that it is not. The comparison with reform Judaism is a good one, I was merely saying that some branches of Islam try to pretend that Islam is a "religion of peace" because the people who follow those movements do not follow real Islam. I do not believe Islam to be a religion of peace in any way, shape, or form, I was just saying that some people who believe that they are following true "Islam" think that it is a peaceful religion.
As for why you, kellymaureen, are considering to leave the forum, I cannot understand. We are all behind you in this matter and we do not believe that you are "misinterpreting" Islam in any way.
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Personally, as I have told Yacov already, that I do not believe Sarah should be banned but either watched or warned to be more careful. Some "mistakes" may well be honest but making them during a vital issue is something that should not and cannot happen....imo.
As for KM, I'm sure she understands how we all feel. Her position is clear and very valid which does deem consideration and attention.
Enough is enough with this thread for me. I'm not wasting one more electron from my mental capacity...frankly it is starting to, if hadn't already, lower my IQ ;)
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Geez, I miss a little more than a day and all this breaks out. Considering her background I commend Sarah for seeking out alternative points of view. She's still yound and may still be a little confused, but I'm sure as she grows older she will see for sure that there is no room for compromise when it comes to Islam.
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Kelly you're great person with firm and 100% percent correct but not politicall correct belives on pisslam; please don't leave becouse of Sarah; She's suposed to be young and confused becouse of her pisslamic upbring so I'm willing to give her all benfits of daubt atleast for now... and I think we must help her to leave this cult (it's not religion just like comunism or nazism); but becouse of this I neither trust her; she must be watched very carefullly becouse some ofher statement are troubling especialy after reading this threat. Last thing people here are very pasionate and sometimes even paronoid so the fight do starts from silly things; I wish we woud have more patience and undesrtanding for one another; we have real enemies to fight and they're outside of walls!
P.S Kelly if you want I I can ask Chaim for you If any form of pissslam apology is tolerated in JTF; and can post any of your future questions if you'll decide to leave although I plead you to stay.
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I support Kelly's stance on islam 110%.
In Sarah's case I feel conflicted.( I havn't seen the thread calling the IDF 'occupiers' yet, BTW) The poor kid is torn right down the middle. She knows (in her heart) that muslims are scum and their 'religion' is vile, cruel and ugly. But it's very hard for a young girl to turn on everything she's been taught to identify with since birth in a short time. To do so effectively means turnig against her family, friends AND community. We need to be patient (and we have been).
At the same time, after more than a year, It's time for Sarah to make a decision.
Sarah............
You see the pictures of stoning, torture, mutilation and mass murder. You hear the threats to destroy Britain, the USA, Israel and the west. You hear the comments of the immams and mullahs. These things are not the products of a 2% fringe minority. They are spoken and commited by mainstream muslim clerics and their followers.
Sarah, if you want to wear a bag, have NO rights, condone the mutilation of children (remember the pics of the 8 YO Iranian boy?), want to see Jews murdered and live under sharia......then stay a muslim.
If you disagree that Jews should be murdered, want to have your own life with a career, full self-determination and rights, want freedom and DON'T want to live under sharia then you must renounce islam now.
Sorry, Sweetie.........but you can't have it both ways. You can't pretend that all the millions upon millions of muslims we all see on TV are not real and that somewhere there is an invisible, peaceful muslim majority. There just isn't.
I know that you and your family aren't jihadist crazies. Unfortunately, you can't support a monstrous ideology without becoming a monster in time. You can't defend elements of nazism such as hitler's road building and healthcare programs while ignoring the overall hatefull, vile nature of it's core ideology. You're either for nazism 100% or against nazism 100%.
The time has come where you must choose. You're either for islam (and ALL the stuff that goes with it) or against it. You don't have to choose another faith immediately, but you must choose 'islam' or 'NOT islam'.
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I agree with Newman...Sarah, over all is a good person, but she has to be stronger..
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Ok, I'm convinced she's a Muslim.. get her the HELL OFF this forum!
I second that
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She makes it look like she's a Zionist and even a Kahanist. If this is true then how can she think Muhammad is a prophet. Muhammad massacred Jews. You either think that sleazy terrorist is a prophet and his murders were justified or he's a terrorist.
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Of course not, Sarah .
You are very spaciel especiely because you are/was a Muslim.
Muslims are "brainwashed" as Charedi Jews are "brainwashed", or as some Christians are "brainwashed". But in fact, it is not "brainwashing", it is a way of educate that developes as a result of having Christian/Muslim/Jews(religion) parents .
And telling me that I misunderstood the koran because I know it is evil and a book of war and I was horrified by reading it.
I do not think that this forum is the place to be defending ANY aspects of that vile, ugly cult. Is there even one person here who thinks that there is anything in the koran, haidth or sura that can in ANY possible way be defended??? If people here think that islam, muslims, the koran, haidth, or sura are defensable, then I am obviously in the wrong place, I was looking for a forum that deplored islam and muslims AND supported the civilized non muslim world, especially Israel.
Maybe I just found my next question for ask JTF
Of course there are very nice things in Islam, as cherity. Mainly, the Muslims treat the Jews much more better than the Christians did until the second half of the 20th century (after Hitler's death, Hitler was Catholic by the way).
But the fact that Islam is very voilence religion can not be tolerated!
Every religion have voilence aspects, every religion have a diffrent "level" of voilence in it.
Some religion tells you about violence, as Judaism (destroy 7 peoples etc') and there are religion that tell you to ACT voilence .
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I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.
From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.
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I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.
From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.
I have read pages 1 and 2, where are the pages that the posts were deleted in ?
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Why don't you let Sarah be Sarah and get off her case? She has her own mind, just like the nazi who come here and spew crap all over the board, but many of you rather her act as some hateful intolerant rag as part of the whole "A"-men chorus.
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I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.
From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.
I have read pages 1 and 2, where are the pages that the posts were deleted in ?
I don't know, but people are refferring to posts of hers that now don't exist in there posts in this topic.
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I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.
From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.
I have read pages 1 and 2, where are the pages that the posts were deleted in ?
I don't know, but people are refferring to posts of hers that now don't exist in there posts in this topic.
If your looking at last nights discussion she was not there.
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Sarah is not practicng anything i spoke to her
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She is honest because if she were practicing Takiyah she'd be saying Islam is a peaceful religion and Muhammad is a prophet etc so unless she says that she's not practicing Takiyah. Besides she's 15 according to her profile so how could a child practice Takiyah?
Perhaps she's practicing Takiyah by saying she's 15 ;)
Hey hey hey, wait a second.
YOU actually think that ALL muslims are animals, liars, barberians ? I HAVE A MUSLIM FREIND, he acts much better than some Jews, because he is a HUMAN BEING. Everyone can be nice and freindly, no one is naturally evil . Apropos "evil", "evil" is a point of view and a prespective of one indvedual, what seems evil to YOU, seems nice to me, and so on. Therefor, a Muslim can be nice to some people, and evil to other people .
That is a complete nonsense, no one's parents tell their chile "My son, from now on, always lie to non-Muslims!" .
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I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.
From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.
I have read pages 1 and 2, where are the pages that the posts were deleted in ?
I don't know, but people are refferring to posts of hers that now don't exist in there posts in this topic.
If your looking at last nights discussion she was not there.
Really? Then where are the posts in which she says these things tha are being discussed, can someone point me to them? I haven't seen them.
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Islam is only a religion.
I cant believe i have to say this here.....ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION
Why not ?
Christianety wasn't a religion at it's first days, it was a cult, but it gaind just more believers than it became to a religion that seperates itself from other religions. Islam is a religion, end of story .
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I don'nt now where these posts are and Sarah has'nt done anything wrong really,why all this about Sarah
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Thank you Infidel
No ex muslim would ever ever defend ANY aspect of islam, there are penalties for leaving, in western countries the "death" penalty isnt practiced too much (or not that we hear of) but its not something that you leave lightly or halfway.
I understand why Sarah sometimes defends Islam:
1. Islam was her life, religion and meaning-intent of her life, it is very hard to think that your life were completly based on "Evil" in other's people opinions as your's .
2. All her freinds, or at least most of tham are Muslims, they talk to her nicly, play with her and more. Is there any reason that she would think here freinds are evil ? of course not .
3. Her family is Muslim, and as family you must love it, defence it and respect it the way it is. By saying Islam is evil, and automaticlly say that Muslims are evil, you insult Sarah's family .
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This is the thread that Kelly was speaking about I think:
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=9305.15
And here is the thread about Sarah telling that the purpose of ridding Israel of the Arabs is to occupy more land...Thus the Israeli Forces or even Jews are occupiers... ("More" means they must be already "occupying" no?)
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=9317.15
This is where it started and it progressed to private messages to me which, predictably speaking, I sent to Yacov because I knew that this would blow up. Not to mention that the subjects were questionable and tone deplorable... This is where it started and she chose to take this situation public after she told me that most members of this forum disagree with my views. I responded in kind that I highly doubt that since I have actually read the Rabbi's works unlike Sarah and this is a Kahanist forum. End, Period, Full stop...
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IN the first of those two threads, I think Sarah was just playing devils advocate.
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218 posts, and still going on.
Perhaps I can finish it.
No one, no matter how good you are, how great your convincing skill, no matter what can convince any muslim to leave islam. Go to any of the numerous ex muslim sites and read what those people had to go through to get out, oddly enough and Im not sure why, but most end up as athiests. This is something that only she can decide to do, no one can help.
I really do hope she gets out, fully out. Islam is no place for a female, there is so much more out there.
And regarding the muslims who do not support the terror aspects, and do not think we should all be killed or converted, unfortunately, they will be killed right along with the rest of us, as my my example about Tarek, who dared to speak out.
Anyhow, end of discussion for me.
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And what does killing people make you? A hero?.....turning the holy land into a bloody battle field?
You yourself suggested better ways to rid Israel of the Arabs, occupy more land, offer money etc
I was trying to be positive here but haven't expressed myself very well. Yes, Israel cannot own land by moving into it but only occupy it until it is made officially theirs. I did not say Israel were occupiers but that is what they will have to do if they are to gain land that they deserve, unless the rest of the world agrees to it and that is very unlikely. Disagree?
There are many meanings to the word occupy. Here are two:
*invade: march aggressively into another's territory by military force for the purposes of conquest and occupation.- This Israel will have to do to combat the Arab Problem, you're telling me I'm a muslim because i said this?
*inhabit: be present in; be inside of , this is meaning of context that can be used for the word occupy.
I did not use the word Occupier, that would mean I currently believe Israel are occupying land that doesn't belong to them, and this is not the case. Israel is an official state. I'm not stupid. Don't twist my words.
No actually more the half of the Quran consists of Jewish stories......referring back to all the messengers such as Abraham and Moses and the prophets. It also contains parables such as that of the sleepers of the cave etc
If you were horrified by all of this, then you didn't understand it.
You will almost certainly disagree with me here however you were wrong KellyMaureen in saying that I said the Quran is: " I stand by my comprehension of the koran, and do not accept anyone telling me its a peaceful book of fables.."
I never said that, not at all. You stated in your post that after reading the entire Quran, you were absolutely horrified by it all. My point exactly followed your post by saying...you could not have found it all horrifying because a lot of it is about the prophets talked about in the Torah, even if it is Plagairised, I for one cannot find all these things horrified especially if they have been copied from the Torah. There are stories which have been changed and manipulated, yes. I was in speaking in reference to the good things mentioned about the prophets. Many commandments that have been sent to the Jewish people, the muslims have also used and they are mentioned in the Quran. I'm sure you're horrified by those also.
Though when I was writing those posts in that particular thread KellyMaureen, I cannot deny that I did feel the want to say those things as an outburst. So, I did.
Chaimfan Scotch, repeatedly said the Hitler Glorifying phrase "Heil Sieg" or something similar, that is in support for the Nazis. This phrase is Illegal in Germany and many other countries. That is why I called him a Nazi. Am I saying "Allahuakbar"? No.
Marzutra, this was not some childish attempt to blow things out of proportion. I want to discuss this on the public part of the forum. Instead of sending messages to Yacov, telling him that I practice Taqiyyah and he better be weary of me, because he is important on JTF and i might be trying to make an impression on Chaim. In other words, doing sly things. That is childish.
I don't have anything against you MarZutra, Kelly or anyone else. This was not intended to insult. Disagreements will arise everywhere.....they don't have to cause disunity.
Kelly, the end of the discussion? You haven't even heard a word I've said about this. This isn't a discussion, if you have finished because you've discussed it with your own opinions only.
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Sarah, enough of this childish nonsense. I simply questioned your misguided statements. That is what started this between you and myself without delving into our private messages which I won't bother to comment on. YOU are a MUSLIM, EX-MUSLIM, NOAHIDE or MUSLOHIDE whatever..... obviously anything or anyone who has an Islamic past, makes those statements, defends the Qur'an, Muslims and the Arabs (adding on Kelly's situation re: Sarah) one logically must keep a watchful eye.
That is enough from Ol-Marzutra. PS: I HAVE NEVER LIED AND HAVE ALWAYS ENTERTAINED YOUR MESSAGES WITH FACTUAL CORRECTNESS AND SUGGESTED MANY REFERANCES, BOOKS ETC.
PERIOD END FULL STOP>>>>>FINNISHED>>>>DONE>>>>ENOUGH....
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Goood lord this still going on? :o