Ask me about arabs.

[Manch]

You mentioned "arabic beautiful and ancient culture" What are you talking about? Please provide examples - I've never heard of such a thing. If you refer to "islamic" culture, than majority of this "culture" was stolen or appropriated by Arabs from Persians, Uzbeks, Indians, Christians, Jews. Arabs were nomadic people who had no culture, hence the adoption of islam. Please let me know if I am wrong. Thank you!

[Zelhar]

If the Brazilian refuse to see Jews as a united people who rightfully own their own national homeland then they are Jew haters. The Islamonazi mullahs in Iran say the same things: "We do not hate Jews, only the Zionists who illegally occupy Palestine".

This type of claim is one of the most anti Jewish ones that there are. They not only hate us, they also deny our self definition, self determination, and self identity. This is a Nazi claim.

Haydes, you are not a son of Germany, you are a son of (Avraham, Yitzhak, and ) Israel.

[Hyades]

If the Brazilian refuse to see Jews as a united people who rightfully own their own national homeland then they are Jew haters. The Islamonazi mullahs in Iran say the same things: "We do not hate Jews, only the Zionists who illegally occupy Palestine".

This type of claim is one of the most anti Jewish ones that there are. They not only hate us, they also deny our self definition, self determination, and self identity. This is a Nazi claim.

Haydes, you are not a son of Germany, you are a son of (Avraham, Yitzhak, and ) Israel.

Where did I say that they say that? They surely recognize the state of Israel to exist, they are pro-Israel and they recognize the unity of all the Jews but even though consider their Jews as part of their own society!

Yes, I am a son of Avraham and his descendants. But I am part of the German society also,... better? 

[Spectator]

If I made aliyah to Israel I would not be considered an Israeli by the native Sabre but only be considered a Jewish immigrant, an alien!

Take it easy I was born outside Israel and made aliya aged 20. I have never felt any discrimination. Israel is a great country and our true home!

[Zelhar]

If the Brazilian refuse to see Jews as a united people who rightfully own their own national homeland then they are Jew haters. The Islamonazi mullahs in Iran say the same things: "We do not hate Jews, only the Zionists who illegally occupy Palestine".

This type of claim is one of the most anti Jewish ones that there are. They not only hate us, they also deny our self definition, self determination, and self identity. This is a Nazi claim.

Haydes, you are not a son of Germany, you are a son of (Avraham, Yitzhak, and ) Israel.

Where did I say that they say that? They surely recognize the state of Israel to exist, they are pro-Israel and they recognize the unity of all the Jews but even though consider their Jews as part of their own society!

Yes, I am a son of Avraham and his descendants. But I am part of the German society also,... better? 

You said that about the Lebanese Brazilians. You said:

... Many people see their national Jewish communities as part of their population and Israel as another country with another government. For many people there is a huge difference between being Jewish and being Israeli citizen!
And brazilians are quite pro-Zionist also and very pro-Israel, except the millions of Arabs (who themselves are not very beloved in Brazil as they have a bad reputation). But these Arabs see Brazilian Jews as Brazilians and thus as a compatriot, while Israelis for them are Jews living in a country where they don't belong, which they have "stolen". And I think this is the same with many Christian Arabs. They have nothing against Jews as long as they live outside Israel. While Muslims think Jews have NO place in this entire world and have to be wiped out. I find both views very irritating and they make me angry!

So, I'll take your words and assume the rest of the Brazilians are friendly folks. But if the Christian Arabs over there say that the Jews "stole Palestine" and then they are against Jews everywhere. If someone say A Jew cannot have his own independent homeland and he must live in exile under some artificial nationality he is Jew hater. Why don't you comprehend that, I don't get. Your attitude of trying to interpret the wicked words of sweet speaking Jew haters is not unlike the crazy Israelis who try to convince themselves that the Arabs want peace and they don't really mean literally to all the things that they teach their children in school etc.

Bottom line is: If someone try to steal your heritage and identity, he hates you. If you lose your identity and heritage, you hate yourself. Haydes, I think you are not lost, which is why I am motivated to help you stay on the inside of the fence. 

[Spectator]

Hyades, look at Chaim Ben Pesach. He was born in America and he's true American patriot. But he would give evreything to make aliya and stays in US only because Israeli leftist authorities deny him entry. You can do very quickly and easily what Chaim Ben Pesach is fighting for many years!

[Madmarv]

Sorry but I'm with Hyades in this debate.
Zelhar I think you are misunderstanding Hyades there. He does not deny the existence of israel, nor does he deny the importance of israel to the jewish people, he would also love to do aliya, but all he is saying is, he is a german, a jewish german citizen. Sorry but I don't know where's the fault in that. He acknowledges and appreciates israel as a true home of the jewish people, but he is not living here yet, he lives in germany, have always been there, so is his parents and his grand parents and his ancestors. He is not an israeli, he is german. If you're accusing him as a self-hating jew just for saying that he's german (while not denying his jewish identity) then you are way, way too extreme into this religion-nationality-israel thing. He will start calling himself an israel jewish when and only when he do aliyah. Its like, a russian living in israel but he calls himself a russian citizen nevertheless. Its not fair, if he wanna call himself russian, then why not get back to russia. Just an example!

My 2 cents.

[Madmarv]

You mentioned "arabic beautiful and ancient culture" What are you talking about? Please provide examples - I've never heard of such a thing. If you refer to "islamic" culture, than majority of this "culture" was stolen or appropriated by Arabs from Persians, Uzbeks, Indians, Christians, Jews. Arabs were nomadic people who had no culture, hence the adoption of islam. Please let me know if I am wrong. Thank you!

Haven't red this entirely, but I suppose most of it is true: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/thelede/posts/arabculture.pdf

* As far as I know (and concerned), I'll start with the arabic language. Its a sophisticated and hard, but very beautiful language (although I prefer english) arabs had many excellent poets and writers that wrote amazing literature, and one very very old poem-novel (its a big book but written in a poetic manner) which is called "Qays wa Layla". Its the exact same thing as "Romeo and Juliet". Its obvious that "Romeo and Juliet" was based on "Qays wa Layla" because it was written back in the middle of the second mellinia, while "Qays wa Layla" was written in the days of muhamad (p1ss be upon him).

* The arabic horses are the best horses in the world

* arabic music such as the old Um Kalthom music, Abd al haleem hafez, and such, was and still an amazing peice of work, very popular even throughout the whole world. Arabs also have their own instruments such as Oud, Durbaki, etc etc.

* Food - we have the greatest food in the world. You are invited in my village to try

* Dancing - arabic dancing is one of the most popular and great dancing in the world as well, next to bally etc etc ... many women from around the world learns arabic dancing because of its beauty and agility.

* The arabs are well-known for their great hospitality, giving, and are very conservative people.

And so many more.

All this, were before Islam as well. Islam came, this whole image is ruined. There were christian arabs even before Islam came, and pagan arabs as well, and even jewish arabs. All followed the same traditions and the same language. Again, until islam came and conquered all. My dream is to wake up one day and see Islam is gone and the arabs are free of this demonic image that Islam brought on us. I hope that answered your question.

[Hyades]

If the Brazilian refuse to see Jews as a united people who rightfully own their own national homeland then they are Jew haters. The Islamonazi mullahs in Iran say the same things: "We do not hate Jews, only the Zionists who illegally occupy Palestine".

This type of claim is one of the most anti Jewish ones that there are. They not only hate us, they also deny our self definition, self determination, and self identity. This is a Nazi claim.

Haydes, you are not a son of Germany, you are a son of (Avraham, Yitzhak, and ) Israel.

Where did I say that they say that? They surely recognize the state of Israel to exist, they are pro-Israel and they recognize the unity of all the Jews but even though consider their Jews as part of their own society!

Yes, I am a son of Avraham and his descendants. But I am part of the German society also,... better? 

You said that about the Lebanese Brazilians. You said:

... Many people see their national Jewish communities as part of their population and Israel as another country with another government. For many people there is a huge difference between being Jewish and being Israeli citizen!
And brazilians are quite pro-Zionist also and very pro-Israel, except the millions of Arabs (who themselves are not very beloved in Brazil as they have a bad reputation). But these Arabs see Brazilian Jews as Brazilians and thus as a compatriot, while Israelis for them are Jews living in a country where they don't belong, which they have "stolen". And I think this is the same with many Christian Arabs. They have nothing against Jews as long as they live outside Israel. While Muslims think Jews have NO place in this entire world and have to be wiped out. I find both views very irritating and they make me angry!

So, I'll take your words and assume the rest of the Brazilians are friendly folks. But if the Christian Arabs over there say that the Jews "stole Palestine" and then they are against Jews everywhere. If someone say A Jew cannot have his own independent homeland and he must live in exile under some artificial nationality he is Jew hater. Why don't you comprehend that, I don't get. Your attitude of trying to interpret the wicked words of sweet speaking Jew haters is not unlike the crazy Israelis who try to convince themselves that the Arabs want peace and they don't really mean literally to all the things that they teach their children in school etc.

Bottom line is: If someone try to steal your heritage and identity, he hates you. If you lose your identity and heritage, you hate yourself. Haydes, I think you are not lost, which is why I am motivated to help you stay on the inside of the fence. 

Sorry but you do too much of interpretation into things not said! If someone thinks a Jew is not an Israeli as long as he lives outside Israel, that is nothing Jew hating. In fact I can only consider myself Israeli living in Israel! I see myself as a citizen of this world who appreciated there is a homeland for all of us Jews, a shelter that may accept Jewish people in need of a shelter.
Also you are right, the Brazilian Arabs ARE anti-Israel and I never denied it. But this is also due to their ignorance. Many of them emigrated to Brazil under Ottoman rule, when Eretz Yisrael was an Ottoman province. We all know that Ottomans treated Arabs and especially Christian Arabs as 4th class people, so did they with Jews. When later the British and the UN devided the "Palestine" mandate into Jewish and Arab, these Christians saw it as some kind of land robbery, which is not the truth - but they are complete ignorants who think Arab muslims would treat Arab Christians better than Israelis do. We all know that Christians in Arab countries suffer a lot and would suffer even more without Israel. Because Muslims would like to wipe them out of the map right after Israel!
People hating Zionism hate the thought of Jews being a defending people with a home country and ready to fight for themselves. What most non-Jewish people would like to see are still the passive, suffering and non-defensive Jews that are easy victims to stupid ideologies. But this, we know it, is over. Coward Neturei Karta Jews are the absolute minority and if they want to feed their enemies, they will see what happens to them one day!

[Hyades]

Sorry but I'm with Hyades in this debate.
Zelhar I think you are misunderstanding Hyades there. He does not deny the existence of israel, nor does he deny the importance of israel to the jewish people, he would also love to do aliya, but all he is saying is, he is a german, a jewish german citizen. Sorry but I don't know where's the fault in that. He acknowledges and appreciates israel as a true home of the jewish people, but he is not living here yet, he lives in germany, have always been there, so is his parents and his grand parents and his ancestors. He is not an israeli, he is german. If you're accusing him as a self-hating jew just for saying that he's german (while not denying his jewish identity) then you are way, way too extreme into this religion-nationality-israel thing. He will start calling himself an israel jewish when and only when he do aliyah. Its like, a russian living in israel but he calls himself a russian citizen nevertheless. Its not fair, if he wanna call himself russian, then why not get back to russia. Just an example!

My 2 cents.

Yes unfortunately he misunderstands me a lot. A person giving him/herself a nationality is not hating oneself - then 99% of human kind would hate itself!!!!
Also I never deny my roots and never said I was this or that in first place. Let's not forget that also the German state gave me a lot: I earn my money with Germans, my friends are mostly Germans (and other nationalities), the German state gave me education, opportunities and treats me equal to all other German people.
Surely it would have been the same if my parents had made aliyah to Israel.
But I do not put myself here in my country as the odd man out just feeding Nazi ideology that says that Jews aren't part of the society, that they are strangers and that they cannot be Germans/British/French,....
Man, there were 90,000 Jews who fought in the German army in WWI against France, being loyal citizens. Were they self-hating? I don't think so, but they know that Jewish traditions and culture as well as the religion itself does NOT depend on nationality!
Where did Yiddish and Ladino come from? From strong loyal European Jews who made it a part of the European continent by making up so many arts, culture and literature! I personally wouldn't call the holocaust survivors who live here today as self-haters just because they do not live in Israel. They may be self-caring because I don't know if I wanted to live in a tumultuous region if I was an old man who passed through so many horrible things as a holocaust survivor. If they decided to live in a place that is at least calmer, I think this doesn't mean they don't support Israel.
I do support Israel with my youtube channel, with 500-800€ per month (which a self-hating Jew would surely spend on other things!) and I am here! If I was an anti-Israeli, Jew-hater-supporter, I would not be here!

But honestly I am neither here to be offended a self-hater, a this and that. If that is what makes JTF, I will leave this forum and surely I won't come back.

[Spectator]

I certainly woudn't call Hyades a self-hating Jew. When judging a person, I must take into consideration the conditions in which he/she was born and grew up. I understand you, Hyades. If the country where you were born didn't oppress you, give you education, health care etc. and good friends, it is quite natural to feel gratitude to it and feel a part of it.

The question is what is more important to you, your country or your (Jewish) people. Are you a Jew? Is your mother Jewish?

If yes, think about all the suffering the Jews have expericenced all though 2000 years of staying in Germany and in Europe in general.  Remember countless Jewish lives that were taken in the name of Christianity or European nations. Remeber the heroism of the Jews who didn't give up their faith and their identity. I dn't even want to mention the Holocaust...

Do you think Germany deserved the faithful patriotism of those 90.000 Jews who fought for her against France, England and  Russia in WWI? Did France, England and Russia deserve the faithful patriotism of the tens of thousand of Jews who fought for them against Germany?

Don't you think it's terrible that the Jews from diffentent countries were killing each other for the interests of European countries?

If there's now a war between Germany and US, would you join the German army knowing that there American Jews who fight for US and you'll probable have to kill some of them? (The same question I can ask American Jews).

The exile is our curse. It will always put the Jews before dilemma who are more loyal, your country or your people. And even if you choose your country, there'll always be people who accuse you that you are more loyal to your people, whatever you do.

I don't hate Europeans. I know there are many good people among them. There are righteous people from Europe, like the members of our forum. It is wonderful you have German friends, any true friendship is sacred.

[Zelhar]

Now who misunderstand who ?

I never said that A Jew should think of himself as Israeli, I actually said that I don't even think of myself as Israeli but simply as a Jew. I also don't say that a Jew must live in Israel. We are the people of Israe, the people of Israel = the Jews, not people who live in the state of Israel. We are obliged to defend our people, and our home land. For a Jew, nationality must comes last, after the people, the homeland, the religion. I don't recognize terms like "Jewish American/Israeli/German" the correct term is "Amrican/Israeli/German Jew".

If there is a conflict between being a loyal German citizen, to being a Jew, if you must pick sides, which side are you on ?

[The One and Only Mo]

Now who misunderstand who ?

I never said that A Jew should think of himself as Israeli, I actually said that I don't even think of myself as Israeli but simply as a Jew. I also don't say that a Jew must live in Israel. We are the people of Israe, the people of Israel = the Jews, not people who live in the state of Israel. We are obliged to defend our people, and our home land. For a Jew, nationality must comes last, after the people, the homeland, the religion. I don't recognize terms like "Jewish American/Israeli/German" the correct term is "Amrican/Israeli/German Jew".

If there is a conflict between being a loyal German citizen, to being a Jew, if you must pick sides, which side are you on ?

Interesting. hmmmm.

[Hyades]

Now who misunderstand who ?

I never said that A Jew should think of himself as Israeli, I actually said that I don't even think of myself as Israeli but simply as a Jew. I also don't say that a Jew must live in Israel. We are the people of Israe, the people of Israel = the Jews, not people who live in the state of Israel. We are obliged to defend our people, and our home land. For a Jew, nationality must comes last, after the people, the homeland, the religion. I don't recognize terms like "Jewish American/Israeli/German" the correct term is "Amrican/Israeli/German Jew".

If there is a conflict between being a loyal German citizen, to being a Jew, if you must pick sides, which side are you on ?

If there was a choice to make, then yes, my Jewish heritage would come first. But I am in the lucky condition that there is no need to choose. Because the choice between national and religious is also a choice between secular values and HaShem. I would rather be a poor follower of HaShem then a rich follower of any nationality or ideology.

@Spectator:
You are right in every thing you say. And no, Germany did not deserve Jewish WWI loyalty since it was given no value afterwards and they were treated worse than any creature on this planet!
But if Germany had a war against the US I would try not to pick up arms. If it was Germany against Russia or Muslims, then yes, I would defend Germany!

[Zelhar]

I will put the discussion aside and just say that I apologize for calling or implying that Haydes is a self hating Jew. I shouldn't have say that and I believe Haydes is, regardless of difference of opinions or misunderstandings, a good and loyal Jew.

[Madmarv]

I will put the discussion aside and just say that I apologize for calling or implying that Haydes is a self hating Jew. I shouldn't have say that and I believe Haydes is, regardless of difference of opinions or misunderstandings, a good and loyal Jew.

Thank you

[Hyades]

I will put the discussion aside and just say that I apologize for calling or implying that Haydes is a self hating Jew. I shouldn't have say that and I believe Haydes is, regardless of difference of opinions or misunderstandings, a good and loyal Jew.

Okay, I accept it! Thank you!