What Do You Think Of Pre-Marital Intimacy And/Or Touching?

[Archie]

Kahanist women hold all the cards, and they know it.

Kahanist men outnumber Kahanist women by about fifty to one, so the Kahanist women can choose and discard mates at will.

And let's face it, it's cool for a Kahanist men to be dating a Kahanist women.

[Gruzinit]

What is this, Iran?
Yes it should in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

I agree. G-d gave people free will. I have a ton of respect for those who choose to abstain before marriage, but that is a personal choice , and the intimacies taken between two consenting adults are their's alone and should not be the priority of the government.

Anyone who tells you there are ways to be rid off sexually impure thoughts is a charleton, we all have impure thoughts, but it is how we conduct ourselves and attempt not simply to let our desires and impulses dictate our lives.

[Dr. Dan]

It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.

I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.

What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.

Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.

I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.

A rather broad generalization I think............

Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.

Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.

I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me.  If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."

The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...

Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.

I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.

It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.

Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning.  Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex.  But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.

Masturbation is worse than pre-marital kissing. It always wastes seed while pre-marital kissing doesn't always waste seed. When I said kissing can waste seed, I meant that it comes out by itself while kissing because of the sexual feeling involved with the kiss. I didn't mean that there was any below the waste contact between the two. Someone told me that this happened to him the first and only time time he kissed a woman.

Yacov,

As a physician, I can add that medical theory dictates that seed [sperm] is constantly recycled within the male, whether it leaves his body or not. Old gametes are resorbed and new gametes produced. So, if it is not used for fertilization, it is destroyed or wasted, so to speak, inside the body or out. Hence sex without fertilization, or masturbation, in this sense, is logically no more a waste of seed than abstinence.

I am not trying to make a point for one sort of behavior or another just pointing out the apparent inconsistency of "wasting the seed" argument. If G-d commands a behavior then there need be no argument what an observant Jew need do, logic and medical theory aside. I am sure on what G-d commands regarding this according to Torah. Are there direct passages regarding this in Torah?

My understanding is that it is the Sins of Or(?) and Onen.  They were both married to their wives.  And their wives wanted children.  However, they literally would tease them in the sense they would have sex, but withdraw...and waste the seed to make kids that their wives wanted...in other words, they only had sex with their wives without fulfilling them with children.

[DownwithIslam]

Wow, this has really turned into some thread. I think it is very admirable for a person to be as moral as Yacov. It really is something respectable. I just think that most men with healthy testosterone levels cannot be as strict as you are advocating in regards to the topic at hand. Yacov, your self control is quite rare.

[DownwithIslam]

Yacov, I read in a fitness magazine that working out, especially doing a compound movement such as squats, has testosterone boosting effects. Do you workout? Maybe its better if you dont as this may make it harder for you to maintain your purity.

[DownwithIslam]

Wow, this has really turned into some thread. I think it is very admirable for a person to be as moral as Yacov. It really is something respectable. I just think that most men with healthy testosterone levels cannot be as strict as you are advocating in regards to the topic at hand. Yacov, your self control is quite rare.

Even if I didn't have self-control, who would I sin with by kissing before marriage? I can't just find an attractive woman and tell her I want to kiss her. That's sexual harassment. And doing it by force is sexual assault. I have no one to kiss even if I wanted to and whenever I tried to find someone, they always rejected me. I never really become friendly with women other than on The Internet and the one time I had an Internet g/f, they was just playing with me and went back to her old b/f after he forgave her for kissing another man. I was sad and depressed until finally meeting her later on and she let me kiss her and she kissed me on the cheek but I have never kissed anyone on the lips and she was the last girl I kissed at all. That was on the day The Oslo War started when the fat pig Ariel Sharon went to The Temple Mount. I heard the news of the beginning of the riots at my grandmother's house near Haifa and then I left for Jerusalem to meet her that evening. I came back the same night. The first time I tried to meet her she didn't arrive because she thought I wasn't coming. Luckily next time I had her cell phone. After that she didn't want to see me again after I messaged her on Yahoo Messenger. She said I mean nothing to her, not even as a friend. I cried but then I got over her. But if I hadn't met her I would have never gotten over her. I was in distress until I met her. She was just using me on The Internet. She wasn't being serious but I was. Every once and a while I still have dreams about her.

Yacov, the situation you are in sounds kind of rough. I really feel bad about it. Firstly, you should never of cried over that girl. Their are many problems that arise in the course of people lives and its not helpful to become that attached to someone you barely knew. I have a few suggestions. Maybe sign up to the gym and get yourself into really good shape. Maybe it will be easier for you to find someone that way. Do some reading on bodybuilding nutrition online, start eating clean while working out properly and you will get into great shape. I am being totally serious about this. Also, it might be easier for you to find a jewish girl if you move to Israel. Did this ever cross your mind?

[DownwithIslam]

Wow, this has really turned into some thread. I think it is very admirable for a person to be as moral as Yacov. It really is something respectable. I just think that most men with healthy testosterone levels cannot be as strict as you are advocating in regards to the topic at hand. Yacov, your self control is quite rare.

Even if I didn't have self-control, who would I sin with by kissing before marriage? I can't just find an attractive woman and tell her I want to kiss her. That's sexual harassment. And doing it by force is sexual assault. I have no one to kiss even if I wanted to and whenever I tried to find someone, they always rejected me. I never really become friendly with women other than on The Internet and the one time I had an Internet g/f, they was just playing with me and went back to her old b/f after he forgave her for kissing another man. I was sad and depressed until finally meeting her later on and she let me kiss her and she kissed me on the cheek but I have never kissed anyone on the lips and she was the last girl I kissed at all. That was on the day The Oslo War started when the fat pig Ariel Sharon went to The Temple Mount. I heard the news of the beginning of the riots at my grandmother's house near Haifa and then I left for Jerusalem to meet her that evening. I came back the same night. The first time I tried to meet her she didn't arrive because she thought I wasn't coming. Luckily next time I had her cell phone. After that she didn't want to see me again after I messaged her on Yahoo Messenger. She said I mean nothing to her, not even as a friend. I cried but then I got over her. But if I hadn't met her I would have never gotten over her. I was in distress until I met her. She was just using me on The Internet. She wasn't being serious but I was. Every once and a while I still have dreams about her.

Yacov, the situation you are in sounds kind of rough. I really feel bad about it. Firstly, you should never of cried over that girl. Their are many problems that arise in the course of people lives and its not helpful to become that attached to someone you barely knew. I have a few suggestions. Maybe sign up to the gym and get yourself into really good shape. Maybe it will be easier for you to find someone that way. Do some reading on bodybuilding nutrition online, start eating clean while working out properly and you will get into great shape. I am being totally serious about this. Also, it might be easier for you to find a jewish girl if you move to Israel. Did this ever cross your mind?

I used to live in Israel and the times I kissed a girl on the cheek were all there.

I am not into working out and have no in interest in doing so. Any girl who cares about men being strong and tough is not for me. I only want a religious girl who doesn't want to kiss before marriage and has never had sex. I don't care if she kissed men in the past, as long as she won't kiss me before the wedding.

Yacov, even Chaim works out. He said so in the past. You should go to the gym for your own health and well being. As I said before, it will certainly be easier for you to alleviate these problems in Israel. Maybe its time for you to move there?

[q_q_]

Before people keep on dogging on Yacov's posts I have a few things to say....

1) This is for Jews. No one is saying for it to be banned for Gentiles.So if you're a Gentile don't worry about it.
<snip>
NO WHERE does Yacov mention how it should become a law in Israel etc. Again it's just an opinion poll!

Please excuse my tone. 
This is my final word on the matter. Again I apologize. In case anyone is upset about my response,I am sorry but I will not discuss it here further. Anyone feel free to contact an Admin or someone about it.
I just had to get it off my chest.

It looks like he is really asking if it should be banned in israeli law.

Either that or he is asking a Halachic question, to a group of largely gentile people, and some jews, almost none of which are expert in Halacha.  And if you are so sure that it is halachically forbidden, and if you're right, then it isn't even a halachic question anyway.

Rabbi Kahane said that the jewish people is sick.. and must be healed gradually, and therefore he is not going to be enforcing all halacha is law.   He would only enforce what the people would accept, because he would not want a civil war.

He would enforce  straight away, the halachic law that a Jew cannot marry a non-jew.   That is vital for the preservation of jews. But not much more than that.

Rabbi Kahane said there is no basis in Torah for democracy. And he would not allow everybody such as arabs, to vote. But, he would accept democracy for jews, so as to avoid a civil war.  So similarly, if things happen that have no basis in Torah, he would not have banned them (except perhaps for some theoretical case where we are on a really high spiritual level and accept if naturally!!).

There are already religious jewish societies, that culturally have "banned" any touching between M and F.. shaking hands e.t.c. Not law though, and it works.  I think it's stupid to enforce all these things as law..  Also, remember..

In the Torah, some -big- sins, like breaking shabbat(with witnesses, so somewhat publically), were punished. And having sex with or marrying a non-jewish woman, were punished. And gay sex was punished.   But I don't think everything was punished..    Somebody doesn't wave the lulav and etrog on sukkot , doesn't get punished in the torah.

[q_q_]

Yacov, I read in a fitness magazine that working out, especially doing a compound movement such as squats, has testosterone boosting effects. Do you workout? Maybe its better if you dont as this may make it harder for you to maintain your purity.

yes, I noticed that!

Thing is though.. Say you're 24, and it makes you feel 19. And you managed at 19, so in theory you can still manage at 24.

[q_q_]

Actually my banning polls are for fun and meant to provoke discussion on the topic. I posted this same poll on Yekutiel's forum and it led to a Halachic discussion on the rules of modesty.

Yehudit understands my intentions with the banning polls.

Aside from halachic discussion(a cerebral thing), how can it be fun?

Let's ban this, let's ban that. It's not Fun.

To lighten up the topic..
It reminds me of that guy from the comedy red drawf who gains this cynical pleasure from enforcing really obscure rules.. Except aboard their space ship, was an android who would correct him all the time..  Drove him nuts
android: "Err Sir, Did you say Law 678 Section 14 subsection C?   No parking in the lounge?!! "

[q_q_]

Actually my banning polls are for fun and meant to provoke discussion on the topic. I posted this same poll on Yekutiel's forum and it led to a Halachic discussion on the rules of modesty.

Yehudit understands my intentions with the banning polls.

Aside from halachic discussion(a cerebral thing), how can it be fun?

Sounds like that guy from the comedy red drawf who gains this cynical pleasure from enforcing really obscure rules.. Except aboard their space ship, was an android who would correct him all the time..  Drove him nuts

android: "Err Sir, Did you say Law 678 Section 14 subsection C?   No parking in the lounge?!! "

I like to talk about dating subjects. I can't touch women but I like to talk about dating though.

That could be useful, even fun

but it's a world away from suggesting that a conversation revolving around Let's ban this, let's ban that,  is fun. It is not fun.   As as evident.

[Dr. Dan]

Wow, this has really turned into some thread. I think it is very admirable for a person to be as moral as Yacov. It really is something respectable. I just think that most men with healthy testosterone levels cannot be as strict as you are advocating in regards to the topic at hand. Yacov, your self control is quite rare.

Even if I didn't have self-control, who would I sin with by kissing before marriage? I can't just find an attractive woman and tell her I want to kiss her. That's sexual harassment. And doing it by force is sexual assault. I have no one to kiss even if I wanted to and whenever I tried to find someone, they always rejected me. I never really become friendly with women other than on The Internet and the one time I had an Internet g/f, they was just playing with me and went back to her old b/f after he forgave her for kissing another man. I was sad and depressed until finally meeting her later on and she let me kiss her and she kissed me on the cheek but I have never kissed anyone on the lips and she was the last girl I kissed at all. That was on the day The Oslo War started when the fat pig Ariel Sharon went to The Temple Mount. I heard the news of the beginning of the riots at my grandmother's house near Haifa and then I left for Jerusalem to meet her that evening. I came back the same night. The first time I tried to meet her she didn't arrive because she thought I wasn't coming. Luckily next time I had her cell phone. After that she didn't want to see me again after I messaged her on Yahoo Messenger. She said I mean nothing to her, not even as a friend. I cried but then I got over her. But if I hadn't met her I would have never gotten over her. I was in distress until I met her. She was just using me on The Internet. She wasn't being serious but I was. Every once and a while I still have dreams about her.

ummm, no of course you don't just go up to girl and tell her that you want to kiss her..even the more immoral people don't do that...like a normal human being you go on dates and get to know the girl and vice versa...

The one issue with being obsessed wtih kissing is that you become blind to a girl's beauty...so one choice is to get it out of the system or simply stop obssessing and dating..even if it means 20 girls for one date.

[Dr. Dan]

Actually my banning polls are for fun and meant to provoke discussion on the topic. I posted this same poll on Yekutiel's forum and it led to a Halachic discussion on the rules of modesty.

Yehudit understands my intentions with the banning polls.

Aside from halachic discussion(a cerebral thing), how can it be fun?

Sounds like that guy from the comedy red drawf who gains this cynical pleasure from enforcing really obscure rules.. Except aboard their space ship, was an android who would correct him all the time..  Drove him nuts

android: "Err Sir, Did you say Law 678 Section 14 subsection C?   No parking in the lounge?!! "

I like to talk about dating subjects. I can't touch women but I like to talk about dating though.

instead of talking about dating you should go and date and see what works for you... aren't you 26?

[q_q_]

Yes, I am 26 but I don't know any women to date. The only women my age I talk to are women on JTF.

it helps to be friendly in real life with people have done it.. and most people have.  Most people I am friendly with - not many - but those that I am friendly with! Have been through that already.  In the modern orthodox world, there is some touching.

From what I understand...
You're not supposed to ask(otherwise it sounds like she's doing you a big favour).. And after a few dates,  she is probably expecting some kind of touch anyway..
I know a guy that is a genius - at everything. And he does like to test the waters, he rarely messes up anything. And is very strategic/logical in everything he says and does. He did something minor(a small move), the girl didn't say no.. , so he took that as an OK. He actually then went a bit further. He judged whether the girl was comfortable. And he expressed complete confidence.  If he was nervous it would have made the girl nervous. 

I guess to some it sounds a bit manipulative.. a bit of a game. But really it's not wrong.. You have to test the waters, but without stepping over the line. If you don't test the waters, you won't move.  So he knew that after a few dates, a touch is not crossing the line.. So he had no fear of doing that. You don't ask. The girl doesn't want somebody more timid than her. That's one of the reasons why girls want a partner!

I had a friend that spent a few weeks around a group of many girls - immature ones, to study them.. He came back from his adventure, with a report that they want a trophy, they want somebody to be proud of..  they want to feel protected. It's part of their femininity.

Obviously, in the more mature girls will want other things too, like money so you can live together ok. And in the really religious world, they will want somebody who is somewhat scholarly.. and observant. And these other things can factor in as more important than the whole trophy thing. But you don't want to violate those rules of the simple girl... i.e. you don't want to act like a nervous wimp.

You really need to talk to people in real life, that have done these things. People you know well.. People that are logical, and you trust, somebody who gives good advice. And express all your concerns..   At worst, an uncle, maybe! But preferably a friend of the same age, who is where you plan on being. In real life.. 'cos this is all about a real-life situation that you have a problem with.

I've seen a guy go up to a girl in the street and straighten her blouse!!! I am not suggesting anybody do that. But he managed it, and she was laughing.. Just because he was confident, and had a gentle voice and looked like a lighter version of "The Rock". But the point is, that imagine if he had been nervous, or most guys had done that, she would have screamed.  A normal person could not have done it.. But the extreme example shows.. If he had been nervous, it wouldn't have worked.. That's an extreme example demonstrating the principle, regarding nervousness and confidence.

[Dr. Dan]

Actually my banning polls are for fun and meant to provoke discussion on the topic. I posted this same poll on Yekutiel's forum and it led to a Halachic discussion on the rules of modesty.

Yehudit understands my intentions with the banning polls.

Aside from halachic discussion(a cerebral thing), how can it be fun?

Sounds like that guy from the comedy red drawf who gains this cynical pleasure from enforcing really obscure rules.. Except aboard their space ship, was an android who would correct him all the time..  Drove him nuts

android: "Err Sir, Did you say Law 678 Section 14 subsection C?   No parking in the lounge?!! "

I like to talk about dating subjects. I can't touch women but I like to talk about dating though.

instead of talking about dating you should go and date and see what works for you... aren't you 26?

Yes, I am 26 but I don't know any women to date. The only women my age I talk to are women on JTF.

don't limit yourself with girls your age..or limit yourself even by looks.  I'm sure there is a local orthodox rabbi that can help set you up. 

I don't think it is healthy to simply yearn about the past "relationships." You need to seriously date girls till you find the one that fits your needs and vice versa.

[Archie]

I'm against any dating that involves touching and I only want a religious woman.

Just give her a little hug...

It provide a very good feeling, and it's nothing of a sexual nature.

I love hugs 

[DownwithIslam]

I'm against any dating that involves touching and I only want a religious woman.

Yacov, why do you want only a religious woman. Of course she must be jewish, but why only religious. It might be easier for you to broaden your options.

[DownwithIslam]

I'm against any dating that involves touching and I only want a religious woman.

Yacov, why do you want only a religious woman. Of course she must be jewish, but why only religious. It might be easier for you to broaden your options.

Most non-religious women are not virgins and I wouldn't get along with non-religious women either. Most non-religious women would  not go to the mikveh after month after their period and would not share my values and beliefs.

Oh I see. Well from what I can tell now, you are very religious so it does make sense for you to get a woman who is at the same religious level you are. I was just thinking that if you met someone who wasn't religious, maybe you could make them religious so its not something you should rule out.

[q_q_]

if you are not in a charedi community, then I think that only a rabbi or shadchan(matchmaker) could find even possibly find you a potential one..  

the kind of girl you would want would be of the kind that would go to a rabbi for a match. Because if they went to a website they would be concerned about being touched. They would trust a rabbi and tell him their religious issue..

you could have it agreed even before you meet her, that would make things easier. Because you would each have told the R your situation/requirements

[Archie]

It provide a very good feeling, and it's nothing of a sexual nature.

You're wrong. It is very sexual. The feeling I would get is sexual.

I love hugs 

So do I but I have to control myself.

Are you planning on making Aliyah anytime soon in order to meet/live with you future wife?

('cause...that special girl you are looking for might be hard to find in the U.S.A...)

[DownwithIslam]

But Yackov, if you yourself aren't completely religious yet, why do you expect a very religious girl to be interested. Most will get nervous if they know you dont keep shabbos totally. I feel I have to point this out. I also think you are narrowing down the list of qualified females to drastically.

[Gruzinit]

I'm against any dating that involves touching and I only want a religious woman.

Yacov, why do you want only a religious woman. Of course she must be jewish, but why only religious. It might be easier for you to broaden your options.

Most non-religious women are not virgins and I wouldn't get along with non-religious women either. Most non-religious women would  not go to the mikveh after month after their period and would not share my values and beliefs.

Just because many girls do not wear skirts or go to Yeshiva does not mean their all hedonists or libertines Yacov. Many young women from my community waited until they were married to have sex (can't say the same for the guys though). While many don't follow the rules of modest dress, some occasionally wear pants or opt to cover their hair with scarves or hats, but there are many who see mikveh as the most essential essence of maintaining family purity. I intend to observe mikveh when I get married, but wigs and super-long skirts are not in the cards for me.

Don't judge people over petty things. People can sometimes surprise you.

[DownwithIslam]

I'm against any dating that involves touching and I only want a religious woman.

Yacov, why do you want only a religious woman. Of course she must be jewish, but why only religious. It might be easier for you to broaden your options.

Most non-religious women are not virgins and I wouldn't get along with non-religious women either. Most non-religious women would  not go to the mikveh after month after their period and would not share my values and beliefs.

Just because many girls do not wear skirts or go to Yeshiva does not mean their all hedonists or libertines Yacov. Many young women from my community waited until they were married to have sex (can't say the same for the guys though). While many don't follow the rules of modest dress, some occasionally wear pants or opt to cover their hair with scarves or hats, but there are many who see mikveh as the most essential essence of maintaining family purity. I intend to observe mikveh when I get married, but wigs and super-long skirts are not in the cards for me.

Don't judge people over petty things. People can sometimes surprise you.

I agree and this is sort of what I was trying to say. Sometimes when a person is too picky about what is acceptable to them, they can end up with nothing.

[q_q_]

But Yackov, if you yourself aren't completely religious yet, why do you expect a very religious girl to be interested. Most will get nervous if they know you dont keep shabbos totally. I feel I have to point this out. I also think you are narrowing down the list of qualified females to drastically.

I don't think that would make them nervous..  A religious girl would be only too happy that he is trying to increase his observance..   Yaakov seems to be letting them know early.. even before they meet. It is fine. They would respect that.

Financial thing is a problem.. Yaakov.. why not wait till you get a job? or get a job..
But as one working charedi once said to me..  (probably lecturing himself out loud).
HaShem says,  Sheshet Yamim Taavod - 6 days you shall work.   It's what G-d wants.

If you both work, that should be sufficient income..

I know, the financial thing is an issue.. moreso in the jewish world than in the gentile world. Because of kosher food(kosher meet is expensive), and getting a property that is within walking distance of a shul..

[q_q_]

But Yackov, if you yourself aren't completely religious yet, why do you expect a very religious girl to be interested. Most will get nervous if they know you dont keep shabbos totally. I feel I have to point this out. I also think you are narrowing down the list of qualified females to drastically.

She doesn't have to be "very" religious. She can be Modern Orthodox Liberal (A term Frumster uses.) and still be a virgin and be okay for me. I call myself Modern Orthodox Liberal too. The other kind of Modern Orthodox is Machmir. I'm very strict on hugging, kissing, and sex, but I will still listen to female singers and if I see an attractive woman, I will still look at her. I also am not opposed to watching TV or other modern things.

This is a tricky one! 

My view is if wearing a kippa, then I would almost certainly not look..  Because I would think it is a chillul hashem..

But if I was wearing a hat, then I wouldn't be quite as  strict with where my eyes go.. But I tend to keep them lowered. In normal walking - Head up usually ..  Fedor keeps his head up and (respectfully keeps his ) eyes down in the stare down against his opponent!    I think the RAMBAN(with a Nun) writes in a letter that one should walk like that.


There was one instance where the woman with the most unbelievable legs anybody has ever seen, she was wearing a short skirt and no tights and was walking down quite a religious jewish road.  The friend I was with, started slurring his speech, and said(afterwards) He has -NEVER- seen anything like that before in his life. And BTW, He is not jewish and doesn't live a sheltered life.

The whole street stood still watching, including a guy with a beard. Standing still, staring behind him in amazement with his mouth hanging open - not drooling, but open in suprise/disbelief.. 

It was an uncontrollable stillness, like a UFO had landed..

It happened once or twice in school, a stunning girl would appear, and because we were all 17, she could stun people into slurry silence. And we'd stare into space even after she had gone, until somebody would wake up and wake up his colleagues, out of the daze.

But for that to happen on a busy public street, to guys in their 20s, 30s 40s.  I have never seen anything like that before or since..