Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??

[Rubystars]

Well, with viriginity, I'm not referring to the broken hymen..I'm referring to the psychological aspect of it of "never laying with a man"...or a man never laying with a woman.

I think that's how any sane, modern person should view it, but the Muslims are barbarians and probably believe if a girl doesn't have an intact hymen then she must have had sex.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I've heard of people who have had sex deciding to have a second virginity where they decide from this point forward to save themselves for marriage. It's not really being a virgin again, but it is making a commitment to a moral way of life and doing the right thing in G-d's eyes.

It is the same thing as being a virgin in G-d's eyes. If we sincerely repent and change our hearts, He will accept it.

[Rubystars]

I've heard of people who have had sex deciding to have a second virginity where they decide from this point forward to save themselves for marriage. It's not really being a virgin again, but it is making a commitment to a moral way of life and doing the right thing in G-d's eyes.

It is the same thing as being a virgin in G-d's eyes. If we sincerely repent and change our hearts, He will accept it.

I agree with you C.F.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I think that's how any sane, modern person should view it, but the Muslims are barbarians and probably believe if a girl doesn't have an intact hymen then she must have had sex.

Yeah, and Muslims also screw goats and donkeys and, in many cases, other men. I don't think any sane humans live by Islamic anatomical standards.  

[nessuno]

I have a nephew.  
He is 18 years old.
He just had a baby.  G-d Bless her.
He has no job.
He does have fancy clothes, a fancy cell phone and an attitude of entitlement.
Great Father material.  He wants to know what he's getting for Father's Day.  I say a 'beating' might be a step in the right direction. Just kidding.

I think parents better start stepping up to the plate as parents.
We have created a generation of children with no moral compass...and we all are paying the price.
SEX is not to be taken lightly.  Think before you act!  

Eesh. Yuck. Egads. $1 solution, anyone? (J/K, Bullcat.) 

Someone should have suggested the $1 solution to him.
My brother-in-law perhaps  
He is just not smart enough to figure things like that out on his own.
Obviously  
Doesn't take brains to become a FATHER.

[Dr. Dan]

I think that in an idealistic society, sex should NOT be done before marraige.  Our society is so screwed up-Jewish and non Jewish.  Being that it is that way and that most of us live in these societies, pre marital sex should be discouraged.  However, speaking for men, sometimes, they need to get it out of their system in order to be a better husband...Or if possible, marry younger.  Except our society doesn't allow the latter.

The problem here is that there way too much focus on sex and less focus on love.  To many, it is SUCH A SIN to have pre-marital sex that it some will push their children to get married younger so that they dont' live or think in sin.  However, it's NOT JUST about sex!!!  It's unfortunate our society has become too sexified.  It's either something awesome or great or a terrible sin.  It's niether. It's a natural thing that is awesome and definately not a sin.  But sex shouldn't just be sex...that's just for animals to do.  We are humans with souls who understand and can learn love...and that's what it's about. If we can love a single person of the opposite sex and marry them, the sex makes sense...all the rest is really a waste of time and brain and soul.

But here's the clincher: How would I know this if I were still a virgin?  How could I understand this if I stayed a virgin?  In other words, sometimes, some people need to wander the desert for 40 years to appreciate the promised land, rather than go direct straight through.  Sometimes eating from the Tree of Knowledge will enhance our brains to do right and know wrong...Things like that can create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.\

I shoudl add however, that the frustration of not doing it before marraige can also create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.

Dr. Dan, the problem with all of the above is that this is all how the world wants us to think. There is no reason why people need to sexually experiment in order to know themselves better, or prepare themselves for marriage. That is a cultural lie that comes straight from Satan. I guarantee you--check the divorce rate for people who were sexually involved prior to marriage and those who saved themselves.

It's really not too difficult for two virgins to be sexually aware and conscious while remaining pure. Two virgins can have frank and open discussions about the birds and the bees and gauge each other's needs/likes/dislikes long before marriage and use this to determine whether or not they are right for each other. All it takes is a willingness to share and make ourselves vulnerable before someone we are interested in.

It is so much harder to remain pure in this day and age than at any time before because our culture is so flooded and saturated with sex--billboards for strip clubs, everything on TV, everything in the movies, etc. It's difficult to completely abstain from the pop culture--or is it? You would be surprised at how much crap we willingly give access to. Maybe the answer to self-control is as easy as turning off the lame sitcoms.

Finally, Dan, I actually do think early marriage is an answer--heck, I wanted to marry at fifteen if you can get my drift.  Unfortunately, teens in our society cannot support themselves, and are not socially trained to have that kind of maturity at that age (whereas in most of human history, people have been heading households at fourteen or so). They certainly are capable of that kind of responsibility, but nobody cares to teach it to them. So, it's just an intriguing theory at this point (though I think probably a very effective one). 

Chaimfan

Good post.

I feel that in an idealistic society, you would be 100% right.  But we live in evil times..in order to get to this idealism, it has to be gradual and not extreme over night.

[Dr. Dan]

This is a split topic with me. I am not innocent, but I do believe that a person should wait until marriage. I have much more respect for a person that remains a virgin until then.

You know that it is never too late with G-d. You can save yourself from this point forward.

I've heard of people who have had sex deciding to have a second virginity where they decide from this point forward to save themselves for marriage. It's not really being a virgin again, but it is making a commitment to a moral way of life and doing the right thing in G-d's eyes.

If you allow me, I can tell you about my personal experience. 

WHen i was only a few years younger than Yaacov, I had the same idealism of waiting till marraige.  And I think I probably would have been able to pull it off until I thought I met the girl of my dreams.  We couldn't wait.  Marraige was out of the question for us.  We were both still in school. Niether of us had really ever dated many other before us.  We did it.  Thank Gd, it didn't work out for us.  But a pandora box opened and now I knew what it felt like.

Today, whether I were dating a virgin or not, it would be between me and her what we decide to do before marraige.  But the reality is, it's much much much much better even if in love, to wait till that Ketubah is signed and the marraige is consumated.  And for me, it's really really really really really hard to not do it being in love with someone and knowing what it feels like already to do it. 

However, there is a conflict with doing it to get it out of the system versus waiting completeley.  In the first relationship, I had nothing out of my system.  I was with a really nice girl, but she wasn't perfect for me.  She and her family had major flaws, but I was too innocent and blind to notice them.  If it had gotten to the point that we got married after several years of dating, I can assure all of you, there would be potential for divorce or a very unhappy marriage. Maturity was an issue, but it was also the desire to go out there and see what's out there. Luckily I have had the opportunity to date a lot since. 

Now, today, I have the experience, I have the knowledge, I'm much more mature.  I know what I want.  And now that I do know what I want and have experience, it's good for a woman who wants to be with a man who has it out of his system and has knowledge and experience on what to do in bed.  Some women, especially the ones who are still virgins until marraige, want to be with a man that knows what to do.  They don't want the "blind to lead the blind".

I"m not saying that guys should now just go out and have sex before marraige.  In fact, a couple can figure things out on their own and share the hottest sex imaginable as they grow older and wiser.

So anyway, my point is that i agree wtih CF and Bullcat and any parent with young kids and teenagers... Please encourage them to wait till they get married. Don't let peer pressure get to them.  Make sure they fall in love with the right person...not just with anyone of the opposite sex.  The right person with the right family.  Better that if they are virgins at that time they are with someone who can hold back until the marraige is consumated.  And better if he is able to provide for a home for his family than be still in school living in a tiny dorm room.  In modern times, it's not easy to have all that all at once.
That's the only thing I disagree wtih with CF. 

In reality, however, I would want a study to be done on the success of marraiges with those who had premarital sex either with their future spouses or multiple partners before they got married versus those who stayed virgins, and see if there is statistic significance.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

For Jews- by the way it is not just simply an experience, and "no big deal" as some have stated, and posted. And the issue is not just about virgins or not. Its more then that, expecially for a female, and Askenazi men. And also the issue of Nidda for all.
 For Jewish females- once they have contact it is an aspect of marriage, although this form of marriage, was cursed by Rava, it non the less is one of the 3 forms of marriage (today all 3 are done in the proper, way, but this still counts as marriage), SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim- "bastards" and a normal Jew is not allowed to knowingly marry them.
 Another issue is that the overwealming majority of girls who would sleep around, even with 1 man would not go to the Mikva, and that is another aspect of a HUGG problem, to add to all the others.
 And if a couple would say okay, we are virgins, but we want to be physically together before marriage, and we will be together forever (as is these relationships last), and even if with the chance she will go to the Mikva, even then it is still a cursed relationship, (Rava put a curse on people who would do that) , but it is not as bad as the rest.
 
  Also for those who trash, or negativity (lashon hara) can be interpreted from their statements even if they do not intend it- I would also like to let you know, and I am not lying, that I went to a mixed boys and girls Yeshiva, where most of the people including myself came from public school, and I would say that the overwealming majority of the girls their were totaly clean and it would be unthinkable for them to have any relations before marriage.

[Dr. Dan]

For Jews- by the way it is not just simply an experience, and "no big deal" as some have stated, and posted. And the issue is not just about virgins or not. Its more then that, expecially for a female, and Askenazi men. And also the issue of Nidda for all.
 For Jewish females- once they have contact it is an aspect of marriage, although this form of marriage, was cursed by Rava, it non the less is one of the 3 forms of marriage (today all 3 are done in the proper, way, but this still counts as marriage), SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim- "bastards" and a normal Jew is not allowed to knowingly marry them.
 Another issue is that the overwealming majority of girls who would sleep around, even with 1 man would not go to the Mikva, and that is another aspect of a HUGG problem, to add to all the others.
 And if a couple would say okay, we are virgins, but we want to be physically together before marriage, and we will be together forever (as is these relationships last), and even if with the chance she will go to the Mikva, even then it is still a cursed relationship, (Rava put a curse on people who would do that) , but it is not as bad as the rest.
 
  Also for those who trash, or negativity (lashon hara) can be interpreted from their statements even if they do not intend it- I would also like to let you know, and I am not lying, that I went to a mixed boys and girls Yeshiva, where most of the people including myself came from public school, and I would say that the overwealming majority of the girls their were totaly clean and it would be unthinkable for them to have any relations before marriage.

ummm so you imply repentance is moot?  If we sin in this aspect we will forever be cursed? The Book of Life is closed automatically? Or must we all of a sudden become Super Ultra Orthodox like you? and then we will be forgiven?  I don't understand this type of thinking and firebrand judaism... Please no more videos...Just tell us what you know.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

For Jews- by the way it is not just simply an experience, and "no big deal" as some have stated, and posted. And the issue is not just about virgins or not. Its more then that, expecially for a female, and Askenazi men. And also the issue of Nidda for all.
 For Jewish females- once they have contact it is an aspect of marriage, although this form of marriage, was cursed by Rava, it non the less is one of the 3 forms of marriage (today all 3 are done in the proper, way, but this still counts as marriage), SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim- "bastards" and a normal Jew is not allowed to knowingly marry them.
 Another issue is that the overwealming majority of girls who would sleep around, even with 1 man would not go to the Mikva, and that is another aspect of a HUGG problem, to add to all the others.
 And if a couple would say okay, we are virgins, but we want to be physically together before marriage, and we will be together forever (as is these relationships last), and even if with the chance she will go to the Mikva, even then it is still a cursed relationship, (Rava put a curse on people who would do that) , but it is not as bad as the rest.
 
  Also for those who trash, or negativity (lashon hara) can be interpreted from their statements even if they do not intend it- I would also like to let you know, and I am not lying, that I went to a mixed boys and girls Yeshiva, where most of the people including myself came from public school, and I would say that the overwealming majority of the girls their were totaly clean and it would be unthinkable for them to have any relations before marriage.

ummm so you imply repentance is moot?  If we sin in this aspect we will forever be cursed? The Book of Life is closed automatically? Or must we all of a sudden become Super Ultra Orthodox like you? and then we will be forgiven?  I don't understand this type of thinking and firebrand judaism...

 Yes, and no. Its exactly the same thing as a women getting married and then being seperated from her husband, can we say and would any Rav (Orthodox) get her married before she get's a Ketuva, and is properly seperated from her real husband?
 Can we say that she regrets ever marrying her first husband and thus is allowed now for another automaticaly?
 Or even a women who's husband does not have a messenger (the whole process like they have done a long time ago, when the men would go to the army and he was missing for some time, and she is given a gett (divorce paper) , and the husband is lost, the women remains an Aguna, and cannot marry unless their were proper witnesses, etc that he is dead.
 
  I am not "super Ultra Orthodox"  , and what I am saying is not that. Im not even bringing Misrash or Zohar on the severities of these sins, this is simple- Pshat Halacha and if one does want to do Tishuva it is possible, but before one would marry or date a girl who has done these things in the past should ponder the complexities of the problems that would come because of just one act. First find all the man she slept with, get them divorced, do this and then do that.... and on top of that still expecialy for a women her soul is attached to the first man she was with, and it will have an affect on their relationship, on their chidren, and on their eternity.

[Dr. Dan]

For Jews- by the way it is not just simply an experience, and "no big deal" as some have stated, and posted. And the issue is not just about virgins or not. Its more then that, expecially for a female, and Askenazi men. And also the issue of Nidda for all.
 For Jewish females- once they have contact it is an aspect of marriage, although this form of marriage, was cursed by Rava, it non the less is one of the 3 forms of marriage (today all 3 are done in the proper, way, but this still counts as marriage), SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim- "bastards" and a normal Jew is not allowed to knowingly marry them.
 Another issue is that the overwealming majority of girls who would sleep around, even with 1 man would not go to the Mikva, and that is another aspect of a HUGG problem, to add to all the others.
 And if a couple would say okay, we are virgins, but we want to be physically together before marriage, and we will be together forever (as is these relationships last), and even if with the chance she will go to the Mikva, even then it is still a cursed relationship, (Rava put a curse on people who would do that) , but it is not as bad as the rest.
 
  Also for those who trash, or negativity (lashon hara) can be interpreted from their statements even if they do not intend it- I would also like to let you know, and I am not lying, that I went to a mixed boys and girls Yeshiva, where most of the people including myself came from public school, and I would say that the overwealming majority of the girls their were totaly clean and it would be unthinkable for them to have any relations before marriage.

ummm so you imply repentance is moot?  If we sin in this aspect we will forever be cursed? The Book of Life is closed automatically? Or must we all of a sudden become Super Ultra Orthodox like you? and then we will be forgiven?  I don't understand this type of thinking and firebrand judaism...

 Yes, and no. Its exactly the same thing as a women getting married and then being seperated from her husband, can we say and would any Rav (Orthodox) get her married before she get's a Ketuva, and is properly seperated from her real husband?
 Can we say that she regrets ever marrying her first husband and thus is allowed now for another automaticaly?
 Or even a women who's husband does not have a messenger (the whole process like they have done a long time ago, when the men would go to the army and he was missing for some time, and she is given a gett (divorce paper) , and the husband is lost, the women remains an Aguna, and cannot marry unless their were proper witnesses, etc that he is dead.
 
  I am not "super Ultra Orthodox"  , and what I am saying is not that. Im not even bringing Misrash or Zohar on the severities of these sins, this is simple- Pshat Halacha and if one does want to do Tishuva it is possible, but before one would marry or date a girl who has done these things in the past should ponder the complexities of the problems that would come because of just one act. First find all the man she slept with, get them divorced, do this and then do that.... and on top of that still expecialy for a women her soul is attached to the first man she was with, and it will have an affect on their relationship, on their chidren, and on their eternity.

Thank you for the explanation. It's a worthy point of view.

[TruthSpreader]

I think all men and women should wait until after they are married before even thinking about having sex.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...ummm so you imply repentance is moot?  If we sin in this aspect we will forever be cursed? The Book of Life is closed automatically? Or must we all of a sudden become Super Ultra Orthodox like you? and then we will be forgiven?  I don't understand this type of thinking and firebrand judaism..."

That's right!

Have sex out of the restrictions placed on you by Torah, and you are going to hell and burn in torment and sulfur fire for eternity!

And if you have a cigarette after the "sex", you're not only going to burn in eternal hell, but you're going to do it exactly 10 years earlier than you would have had you not smoked that cigarette.

Just look at Tim Russert -- that's what sinners have to look forward to!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim-

Tzvi.  There needs to be kavanah.  In this day and age, you cannot say that a single Jewish woman and man lying together after a wild night on the town was ACTUALLY them getting married.  It wasn't.  It was them lying together.  There is a phrase that the man says to announce it to mekadesh the woman.  This is how it is done today.  Am I wrong?  You can't impose the old standards on today and say retroactively all these having premarital sex are actually marrying each other without realizing it..... Can you?    Wouldn't that be sort of throwing the torah she bal peh out the window?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Good post.

I feel that in an idealistic society, you would be 100% right.  But we live in evil times..in order to get to this idealism, it has to be gradual and not extreme over night.

Why thank you. I do know what you are getting at, but it's not that complicated, at least to begin with. In the short term, there is nothing wrong with telling average citizens to keep their pants zipped.

In the longer term we can discuss the various social problems that encourage fornication. But nothing takes away from the fact that we all possess self-control; we are not beasts.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Better that if they are virgins at that time they are with someone who can hold back until the marraige is consumated.  And better if he is able to provide for a home for his family than be still in school living in a tiny dorm room.  In modern times, it's not easy to have all that all at once.
That's the only thing I disagree wtih with CF. 

Where do you disagree with me? I never denied that it is extremely difficult for the average student to be able to provide and establish a home. It sounds like we agree.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim-

 There is a phrase that the man says to announce it to mekadesh the woman.  This is how it is done today.  Am I wrong?  You can't impose the old standards on today and say retroactively all these having premarital sex are actually marrying each other without realizing it..... Can you?    Wouldn't that be sort of throwing the torah she bal peh out the window?

 Yes, and that would mean that if a man says to a women mekadesh me, and gives a gift (worth more then 2 cents) even as a joke, it has been said that it is a problem, and their was a case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef (where he was actualy lenient because their was only 1 kosher witness), but it was a problem for the girl because she wasn't alowed to get married in Israel, and the guy was trying to get as much $ from her as possible (I think it is called extortion).
  About the Torah She Baal Pe- the first page dealing with Marriages- Mesehet "Kiddushim" - says that to acquire (get married) to a girl is one of 3 ways. 1- Have relations with her, 2- through an item, where you state its for a marriage and she accepts it, and the third I forgot.

  But whatever, I am NOT stating exact halacha, because I am not qualified, BUT I am bringing what I know, so people can see the seriousness of this, and then for sure a good Rav and Beit Din would have to decide on how to handle the matter properly (and on top of that, now its also an embarrasment the women would probably go through admitting what she has done, but still it has to be done, but its such an important matter.)
 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yeah, I see what you're saying.  ANd I'm familiar somewhat with the similar cases to what happened with Rabbi Yosef.   People saying that phrase as a joke is not a joking matter.   At all.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Also I don't know for sure, but I just don't think it's actually halachically binding as an actual "marriage" today when a sexual act was done.  Of course I am not an authority and could also be wrong... But in terms of how serious it is or how serious a sexual act is , you are definitely right on that point.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Yeah, I see what you're saying.  ANd I'm familiar somewhat with the similar cases to what happened with Rabbi Yosef.   People saying that phrase as a joke is not a joking matter.   At all.

 Thats the problem with people in todays society. Everything is a joke for them. People do not realise the seriousness of their actions, and how one "joke" can affect a persons life in this world and the worlds to come. That case by the way had nothing to do with them having any physical contact, but even with a few words, the girl almost fell in the category where she would not be alowed to get married halahicaly (which in Israel means at all), unless she would give the guy a HUGG amount of money, or possibly this would lead to murder since having him dead would free her, or a number of many other problems, and this is just a few words, how much more soo having physical relations.
 Thats why Jews should be educated in this field, and also all of the Torah so to make life soo much easier for themselves, their children , etc.

[Scriabin]

This subject is boring.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Yeah, I see what you're saying.  ANd I'm familiar somewhat with the similar cases to what happened with Rabbi Yosef.   People saying that phrase as a joke is not a joking matter.   At all.

 Thats the problem with people in todays society. Everything is a joke for them. People do not realise the seriousness of their actions, and how one "joke" can affect a persons life in this world and the worlds to come. That case by the way had nothing to do with them having any physical contact, but even with a few words, the girl almost fell in the category where she would not be alowed to get married halahicaly (which in Israel means at all), unless she would give the guy a HUGG amount of money, or possibly this would lead to murder since having him dead would free her, or a number of many other problems, and this is just a few words, how much more soo having physical relations.
 Thats why Jews should be educated in this field, and also all of the Torah so to make life soo much easier for themselves, their children , etc.

Did she participate in the joke or did the man just say Harei At... to her without her approval? Was she even his girlfriend? And why would she have to give him money? A Jewish man has to pay his wife to divorce her, not the other way around.

 She participated obviously, and took it.  imagine if her consent wouldn't matter, any guy could just come up to any girl and force her to marry him  .
 I dont know if they were boyfriend girlfriend.
  Yea, but in this case he wasn't alowing her to get divorced, and luckily for her their was only one kosher (defined by being Shomer Shabb-t in Halacha) witness. And he was just saying no I will not divorce you, unless you pay me X amount of money, and if not you cant ever marry another man.
  Normaly yes, but not always. It depends on the contract- "Ketuva" that they have. And also if she follows it correctly. For example if the husband decides to move to Israel and she refuses, he is alowed to divorce her without the Ketuva $. Or another example- if she disobays the Torah law, for example she dresses immodestly where other men see her, technicaly she also forfeits her rights. And another case- if she decides that the $ she makes, she is incharge of and not her husband, then the husband does not have to support her, nor if they are seperated does he have to give the $ written down and agreed in the Ketuva. (But its the wifes choice on whether the $ she makes belongs to her husband, and he has to support her, or if she is financialy independent, but he does not owe her anything financially during and after mariage.) and their are many many other examples.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

When my mother was 16-years-old, she was forced into an arranged marriage. The marraige was horrid from the start, and within a year my mother got a divorce.

After her divorce, some me in the local village thought that just because she was a divorcee, it meant she was a whore. When men did approach her, they made it obvious that they solely wanted sex, and had no intention of courting her or considering her for marriage, they wanted a young virgine bride for that. To say she was devastated would be an understatement, it angers me beyond belief remembering the pain in my mother's voice as she told how men thought she was worthless, when she has more dignity and grace than all of them combined.

My mother suffered and was subjected to cruelty for what, a membrane of skin? I'm not saying people should have sex with numerous partners, I truly believ in abstinence, but if a man could not love me because over something as petty as that, then i doubt he is much of a man at all.

Gruzinit, truly this is a revolting and sickening anecdote. These people, who treated your mother like they did, are as far as I am concerned plain and simple rodefs--no better than the Muslims. They deserve to burn in hell forever if they do not truly repent of their ways. At the same time, overwhelmingly most virginity/promiscuity debates in the West do not fall within those extreme circumstances. Average people who have sex outside of marriage or who divorce do so entirely out of their own fickleness and flippancy, and they should be judged--if they do not repent and stop living that way.

[Gruzinit]

Gruzinit's mother was innocent because she has sex in marriage. Any woman who had sex in marriage and got divorced is innocent, no matter how young she was and what the circumstances of the marriage were.

My mother's innocence wasn't a matter to these people. They and their families considered her as damaged goods.

[DownwithIslam]

Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.

I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.

When my mother was 16-years-old, she was forced into an arranged marriage. The marraige was horrid from the start, and within a year my mother got a divorce.

After her divorce, some me in the local village thought that just because she was a divorcee, it meant she was a whore. When men did approach her, they made it obvious that they solely wanted sex, and had no intention of courting her or considering her for marriage, they wanted a young virgine bride for that. To say she was devastated would be an understatement, it angers me beyond belief remembering the pain in my mother's voice as she told how men thought she was worthless, when she has more dignity and grace than all of them combined.

My mother suffered and was subjected to cruelty for what, a membrane of skin? I'm not saying people should have sex with numerous partners, I truly believ in abstinence, but if a man could not love me because over something as petty as that, then i doubt he is much of a man at all.

I agree with you. This is what I was trying to bring in my few posts in this thread.