Author Topic: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum  (Read 9699 times)

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2009, 10:03:05 PM »

BTW, every other linguist in the world thinks Wexler is an idiot.   I just learned that he claims that Yiddish is a central asian language rather than German offshoot....   LOL.   Try telling that to people who know and speak the languages Yiddish and German.

He says Yiddish is a combination between Slavic and German. Doesn't sounds illogical to me.

No..... HEBREW?   LOL.      Every other linguist on the planet thinks he's an idiot.   Only the Muslims and Jew-haters pretend that they think he's right.   And of course they can't demonstrate anything.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2009, 02:02:39 AM »
This guy is a troll.

Offline mord

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2009, 03:49:47 AM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/science/14gene.html?ex=1294894800&en=d17eda8e09ca32a4&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss 





yes some Jews speak yiddish a combination of high German and to much lesser degree slavic languages but so what.Jews took on parts of the language where they lived.People in South america who are pure Spainards  do not speak catalonin Spanish.Also yiddish has some Heb in it. it's a language it's not Heb most Jews speak Hebrew well.Heb was considered a HOLY LANGUAGE even in ancient times Jews and Israelites used aramiac for common talk.
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Online Zelhar

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2009, 04:19:39 AM »
I don't have time to all of this, I never said Koestler proved it with genes. Answer me please, how's that Kostler literally means "The Khazar" and still is not descended from Khazars?
And you change what I said with the quotes. Quote the entire thing, you're confusing people.

And I never said that there weren't Jews in Europe before the Khazar kingdom, period.
Jews didn't have family name in the European fashion until, I think, the 18th century. When they did took family names, they were mostly German, Polish, and Russian names (or Hebrew names that were germanized etc.). I don't know how Kostler means Khazar, I think the word for Khazar is... Khazar. But anyway even if it is, this is a name which was given hundreds of years after there were Khazars. And as you can see for yourself Jewish family names have nothing to do with Khazars.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2009, 10:57:06 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_language
From wikipedia, about Yiddish:

"Yiddish (ייִדיש yidish or אידיש idish, literally "Jewish") is a non-territorial High German language of Jewish origin, spoken throughout the world. Unlike other Germanic languages, Yiddish is written with the Hebrew alphabet as opposed to a Latin alphabet.

The language originated in the Ashkenazi culture that developed from about the 10th century in the Rhineland and then spread to central and eastern Europe and eventually to other continents. In the earliest surviving references to it, the language is called לשון־אַשכּנז (loshn-ashkenaz = "language of Ashkenaz") and טײַטש (taytsh, a variant of tiutsch, the contemporary name for the language otherwise spoken in the region of origin, now called Middle High German; compare the modern New High German Deutsch). In common usage, the language is called מאַמע־לשון (mame-loshn, literally "mother tongue"), distinguishing it from biblical Hebrew and Aramaic, which are collectively termed לשון־קודש (loshn-koydesh, "holy tongue"). The term "Yiddish" did not become the most frequently used designation in the literature of the language until the 18th century. "

"For a significant portion of its history, Yiddish was the primary spoken language of the Ashkenazi Jews and once spanned a broad dialect continuum from Western Yiddish to three major groups within Eastern Yiddish. Eastern and Western Yiddish are most markedly distinguished by the extensive inclusion of words of Slavic origin in the Eastern dialects. While Western Yiddish has few remaining speakers, Eastern dialects remain in wide use."    



I should point out that most historians place the "development of Ashkenazi culture in the Rhineland" to much earlier than 10th century.   This obviously has to be the case as these groups already were there for several hundred years.   But perhaps they mean the development to the extent that the yiddish language developed...

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2009, 11:06:21 AM »
Also interesting to note that Yiddish developed from multiple dialects of German several hundred years before the advent of 'standard German'.... So there will be differences and nuances involved, but still every linguist knows that yiddish is a Germanic language (even moreso than English, and nobody argues that English is not!), so khazar theories/fantasies need not intrude on the facts and distort science.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2009, 11:08:54 AM »
I don't have time to all of this, I never said Koestler proved it with genes. Answer me please, how's that Kostler literally means "The Khazar" and still is not descended from Khazars?
And you change what I said with the quotes. Quote the entire thing, you're confusing people.

And I never said that there weren't Jews in Europe before the Khazar kingdom, period.
Jews didn't have family name in the European fashion until, I think, the 18th century. When they did took family names, they were mostly German, Polish, and Russian names (or Hebrew names that were germanized etc.). I don't know how Kostler means Khazar, I think the word for Khazar is... Khazar. But anyway even if it is, this is a name which was given hundreds of years after there were Khazars. And as you can see for yourself Jewish family names have nothing to do with Khazars.

That is a good point, and very obvious one that I am surprised I missed.   What a house of cards this guy has.   I would like to know in what language exactly does kostler mean khazar.   Certainly not in khazarian lol.   But either way you are right, last names are an anachronism when it comes to studying cultural history and the history of the Jews.  A very recent occurrance.

Offline Ze'ev

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2009, 10:52:28 PM »
Khazaria will rise again!!!

YAAARGH!!!    :laugh:
Thus the Jews struck all their enemies with the sword, killing and destroying; and they did what they pleased to those who hated them.

Offline EagleEye

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2009, 09:47:20 PM »
Ashkenazi Jews are part Jewish, part European.  Dunadan is exaggerating.  If you look at the Y chromosome, it is Jewish.  There is no doubt.  The founding male ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry is Jewish.  BTW the Caucasoid race is not purely a European affair.  Jews "look White" because Caucasian genetics exist outside of Europe.

But if you look at the MtDNA, many people argue that it may be European.  This means that many of the founding mothers of Ashkenazi populations were not born Jewish but converted.

If you believe that these founding mothers converted under Orthodox Judiasm, they are as Jewish as Moses.  Judaism isn't supposed to be racist.

Offline EagleEye

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2009, 09:56:46 PM »
Another thing, at one point in history, it was the father, not the mother, who determined who was a Jew.  For karaite Jews, they still go by the father.  It's not accurate to say that Judaism was always transmitted by the mother.  At one point in history, it was the father.  Then the law changed.  Orthodox and Conservative Jews go with the new law, and "reform Jews" (atheists really) go by either.

The law of return doesn't consider you a Jew if your father is a Jew.  It allows you to return to Israel.  But it still considers you a Gentile.  You live as a Gentile among Jews.  But you can convert if you really want to.

Offline muman613

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2009, 01:19:46 AM »
Another thing, at one point in history, it was the father, not the mother, who determined who was a Jew.  For karaite Jews, they still go by the father.  It's not accurate to say that Judaism was always transmitted by the mother.  At one point in history, it was the father.  Then the law changed.  Orthodox and Conservative Jews go with the new law, and "reform Jews" (atheists really) go by either.

The law of return doesn't consider you a Jew if your father is a Jew.  It allows you to return to Israel.  But it still considers you a Gentile.  You live as a Gentile among Jews.  But you can convert if you really want to.

I do not know what you are talking about here... At what point in history was it like this? Not according to Jewish law which is recorded in the Talmud, and not according to Torah, which as we pointed out before is clear about this.

Please provide some evidence of what you are talking about here. Thank you...

http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/202/Q1/

Quote
Nathan Silberstein from Los Angeles, CA wrote:

    Dear Rabbi,

    What is the halachic source of matrilineal descent? Why are we set against patrilineal descent when all of our ancestors in the Torah are referred to as so and so son of so and so, referring only to the father's name?


Dear Nathan Silberstein,


In the time of the Patriarchs it appears that descent followed the father. However, the period of the Patriarchs was before the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai. It was only with the revelation on Sinai that the Jewish people received their legal system. Therefore it is impossible to bring Halachic, legal proofs from the Patriarchs. Our source for Halacha is the Written and Oral Torah.

The Mishna in Tractate Kiddushin 66b states that if a child's mother is not Jewish, then the child is not Jewish.

The Babylonian Talmud, Kiddushin 68b, derives this Halacha from a verse in Deuteronomy 7:1-5, which also contains the prohibition against intermarriage. "When the L-rd your G-d brings you to the land that you will inherit, many nations will fall away before you; the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Prizites, the Hivites and the Jebusites... And you shall not marry with them; do not give your daughters to his sons and do not take his daughters for your sons. For he will turn your son away from me and they will worship other gods...." The Talmud points out that the verse only seems to be concerned with the son of the Israelite woman being turned away, "for he (the gentile)" will turn your son away. It does not seem to be concerned that "she (the gentile) will turn your son away." The implication is that the son of the Jewish woman and gentile man is still considered "your (the Jewish grandfather in this case) son," but in the case of a gentile woman married to a Jewish man, the child is not considered "your son" and therefore there is no concern about his turning away. This follows Rashi and Tosfot Ri Hazaken in their explanation of the Gemara.

Tosfot (ad loc. "Amar krah") offers a number of different methods of derivation from the verse, but agrees with the conclusion. This law is also found in the Mishna in Yevamot (ch. 2, 21a): "He counts as a brother in every respect unless he was the son of a maidservant or of a gentile woman."

This halacha is codified in the Code of Jewish Law, Even HaEzer 8:5, and in Maimonides' Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships, 15:4. Maimonides states: "This is the general rule: The status of an offspring from a gentile man or from a gentile woman is the same as his mother's; we disregard the father."

Another source in the Torah is the verse in Leviticus 24:10: "the son of an Israelite woman went out - and he was the son of an Egyptian man." This person is described as being "in the midst of the community of Israel" - in other words, Jewish.

Probably the most explicit verse against patrilineal descent is in the book of Ezra 10:2-3: Some of the Jews who had returned from the exile declare, "We have trespassed against our G-d and have taken foreign wives of the people of the land. Yet, there is hope in Israel concerning this thing. Therefore, let us make a covenant with our G-d to put away all the wives and such as are born to them, according to the counsel of the L-rd and of those who assemble at the commandment of G-d; let it be done according to the law."

Sources are also in Midrash Rabbah, Numbers, 19, and Jerusalem Talmud, Kiddushin 3:12.

Do we ignore the father completely? Certainly not. The father is the one who determines what tribe the child is from. That is: Kohen, Levi, Yisrael. Also, in determining royalty and other leadership roles among the Jewish people we go from father to son.
And you shall call out and say before the Lord, your God, "An Aramean [sought to] destroy my forefather, and he went down to Egypt and sojourned there with a small number of people, and there, he became a great, mighty, and numerous nation.
Devarim/Ki Tavo 26:5

Offline EagleEye

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2009, 01:39:07 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F#Israelite_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism#Who_is_a_Jew.3F

I know I read this elsewhere too.  If I find the source that i originally saw, I'll post it.

Of course pragmatically, in "real life," if someone is born of a Jewish mother, it doesn't mean they'll organize themselves with the Jewish community.  Though it means they could at any point and wouldn't have to convert.

Offline Ron Ben Michael

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2009, 01:39:53 AM »
                                                                          בס"ד

Another thing, at one point in history, it was the father, not the mother, who determined who was a Jew.  For karaite Jews, they still go by the father.  It's not accurate to say that Judaism was always transmitted by the mother.  At one point in history, it was the father.  Then the law changed.  Orthodox and Conservative Jews go with the new law, and "reform Jews" (atheists really) go by either.

The law of return doesn't consider you a Jew if your father is a Jew.  It allows you to return to Israel.  But it still considers you a Gentile.  You live as a Gentile among Jews.  But you can convert if you really want to.

No, that's only a theory. The closest thing to this is in the days of Avraham, every person who would join his "camp", would turn Jewish (meaning that Hagar also was Jewish). But then again, it wasn't about what you're talking about.

Ka'arites are going after the father since it's a Minhag Kdu'mim (Custom of the ancient), and nothing more. They also bow down on their nees like Minhag Eretz Israel (like the nations who were here until our arrival were worshipping), when they're praying, so?

I live in Israel and I know that what you're saying is false. If none of your grandparents if Jewish, then you're a Gentile only then according to the law of return. But if your dad is Jewish, then you are Jewish.

Offline Ron Ben Michael

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2009, 01:42:40 AM »
                                                                בס"ד

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F#Israelite_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism#Who_is_a_Jew.3F

I know I read this elsewhere too.  If I find the source that i originally saw, I'll post it.

Of course pragmatically, in "real life," if someone is born of a Jewish mother, it doesn't mean they'll organize themselves with the Jewish community.  Though it means they could at any point and wouldn't have to convert.
     

Wikipedia is the worst "source" you can ever give, this is one hell of an Atheistic/Agnostic so-called intelletual-loving website, please give normal resources, from Jewish websites.

Offline Ron Ben Michael

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2009, 01:43:56 AM »
                                                                     בס"ד

Btw EagleEye, are you Jewish?

Offline EagleEye

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2009, 01:44:55 AM »
Wikipedia links to its sources.  Follow their links.  Each statement is backed with a source.

Offline EagleEye

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2009, 01:45:42 AM »
No.  I'm not Jewish.  Do have some Jewish ancestry (on father's side).  I'm atheist.  And I'd be atheist if my mother was Jewish.  It's an ideological thing.

But you're still my political allies.

Offline EagleEye

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2009, 02:01:22 AM »
I understand your concern and if I find the source I saw originally, I'll post it to make things interesting.

It really doesn't matter, because everyone knows that today, Orthodox and Conservative Judaism clearly go by the Mother.

If your father is Jewish and you feel left out, you always can convert if you want to.  And if your mother is Jewish and you aren't spiritual, certainly Jews aren't like Muslims.  They aren't going to kill you for not believing.


http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1950_1959/Law+of+Return+5710-1950.htm
Here is info about the law of return.  It agrees with me.  If I'm wrong, then the source is also wrong:
Quote
4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."
Quote
4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.

It lets people with Jewish dad's in, but still considers them Gentiles if they don't convert.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 02:08:07 AM by EagleEye »

Offline Ron Ben Michael

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2009, 08:58:15 AM »
                                                       בס"ד

Wikipedia links to its sources.  Follow their links.  Each statement is backed with a source.

You know, it'd be better and more polite if you give them to me, these are you statements you are trying to defend.

Offline Ron Ben Michael

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2009, 09:01:54 AM »
                                                                                בס"ד

I understand your concern and if I find the source I saw originally, I'll post it to make things interesting.

It really doesn't matter, because everyone knows that today, Orthodox and Conservative Judaism clearly go by the Mother.

If your father is Jewish and you feel left out, you always can convert if you want to.  And if your mother is Jewish and you aren't spiritual, certainly Jews aren't like Muslims.  They aren't going to kill you for not believing.


http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1950_1959/Law+of+Return+5710-1950.htm
Here is info about the law of return.  It agrees with me.  If I'm wrong, then the source is also wrong:
Quote
4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."
Quote
4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.

It lets people with Jewish dad's in, but still considers them Gentiles if they don't convert.

Too bad the Law was changed. If this really was like this, the "Reformic" and "Conservative" so-called conversion weren't recognized by the State.

Offline mord

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2009, 09:09:33 AM »
About Koestler there was no DNA testing when he lived.I can point you to hundred page studies if you choose ask me but here it sums it very well in wiki         


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews   










See also: Y-chromosomal Aaron, Genealogical DNA test, and Matrilineality

Genetic studies indicate various lineages found in modern Jewish populations, however, most of these populations share a lineage in common, traceable to an ancient population that underwent geographic branching and subsequent independent evolutions.[39] While DNA tests have demonstrated inter-marriage in all of the various Jewish ethnic divisions over the last 3,000 years, it was substantially less than in other populations.[40] The findings lend support to traditional Jewish accounts accrediting their founding to exiled Israelite populations, and counters theories that many or most of the world's Jewish populations were founded entirely by local populations that adopted the Jewish faith, devoid of any actual Israelite genetic input.[40][41]

DNA analysis further determined that modern Jews of the priesthood tribe—"Kohanim"—share an ancestor dating back about 3,000 years.[42] This result is consistent for all Jewish populations around the world.[42] The researchers estimated that the most recent common ancestor of modern Kohanim lived between 1000 BCE (roughly the time of the Biblical Exodus) and 586 BCE, when the Babylonians destroyed the First Temple.[43] They found similar results analyzing DNA from Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews.[43] The scientists estimated the date of the original priest based on genetic mutations, which indicated that the priest lived roughly 106 generations ago, between 2,650 and 3,180 years ago depending whether one counts a generation as 25 or 30 years.[43]

Although individual and groups of converts to Judaism have historically been absorbed into contemporary Jewish populations — in the Khazars' case, absorbed into the Ashkenazim — it is unlikely that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern Jewish groups, and much less that they represented their genesis as Jewish communities.[44]
Male lineages: Y chromosomal DNA

A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population", and suggested that "most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora".[39] Researchers expressed surprise at the remarkable genetic uniformity they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become dispersed around the world.[39]

Other Y-chromosome findings show that the world's Jewish communities are closely related to Kurds, Syrians and Palestinians.[45][42] Skorecki and colleague wrote that "the extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin".[42] According to another study of the same year, more than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men (inhabitants of Israel and the territories only) whose DNA was studied inherited their Y-chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. The results are consistent with the Biblical account of Jews and Arabs having a common ancestor. About two-thirds of Israeli Arabs and Arabs in the territories and a similar proportion of Israeli Jews are the descendants of at least three common ancestors who lived in the Middle East in the Neolithic period. However, the Palestinian Arab clade includes two Arab modal haplotypes which are found at only very low frequency among Jews, reflecting divergence and/or large scale admixture from non-local populations to the Palestinians.[46]

Points in which Jewish groups differ is largely in the source and proportion of genetic contribution from host populations.[47][48] The proportion of male indigenous European genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to around 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%."[39] More recent study estimates an even lower European male contribution, and that only 5%–8% of the Ashkenazi gene pool is of European origin.[39]
Female lineages: Mitochondrial DNA

Before 2006, geneticists largely attributed the genesis of most of the world's Jewish populations to founding acts by males who migrated from the Middle East and "by the women from each local population whom they took as wives and converted to Judaism." However, more recent findings of studies of maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA, at least in Ashkenazi Jews, has led to a review of this archetype.[49] This research has suggested that, in addition to Israelite male and local female founders, significant female founder ancestry might also derive from the Middle East.[49] In addition, Behar (2006) suggested that the rest of Ashkenazi mtDNA is originated from about 150 women, most of those were probably of Middle Eastern origin.[50]

Research in 2008 found significant founder effects in many non-Asheknazi Jewish populations. In Belmonte, Azerbaijani, Georgian, Bene Israel and Libyan Jewish communities "a single mother was sufficient to explain at least 40% of their present-day mtDNA variation". In addition, "the Cochin and Tunisian Jewish communities show an attenuated pattern with two founding mothers explaining >30% of the variation." In contrast, Bulgarian, Turkish, Moroccan and Ethiopian Jews were heterogeneous with no evidence "for a narrow founder effect or depletion of mtDNA variation attributable to drift". The authors noted that "the first three of these communities were established following the Spanish expulsion and/or received large influxes of individuals from the Iberian Peninsula and high variation presently observed, probably reflects high overall mtDNA diversity among Jews of Spanish descent. Likewise, the mtDNA pool of Ethiopian Jews reflects the rich maternal lineage variety of East Africa." Jewish communities from Iraq, Iran, and Yemen showed a "third and intermediate pattern... consistent with a founding event, but not a narrow one".[51]

In this and other studies Yemenite Jews differ from other Mizrahim, as well as from Ashkenazim, in the proportion of sub-Saharan African gene types which have entered their gene pools.[47] African-specific Hg L(xM,N) lineages were found only in Yemenite and Ethiopian Jewish populati
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline muman613

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2009, 11:17:49 AM »
I cant believe I have posted the JEWISH response to this twice in this thread and nobody is paying attention. Apparently everyone is on their own little ego trip about this.

SINCE THE TORAH WAS GIVEN AT SINAI the determining factor of the childs status is passed by the Mother. If the mother is Jewish then the children are Jewish, but if only the father was Jewish then the children are not Jewish...

What is so hard to understand about this? There are several sources, both from the WRITTEN LAW, the Chumash, and from the ORAL LAW, the Talmud which prove this. Why do you continue to argue about it?

Either you are a real Jew and believe that Torah, the written and the oral law, were given at Sinai or you are not a real-Jew and are following some other religion which you think is Jewish... There is no question about whether Torah forbids a Jewish man from marrying a non-Jewish woman, because the children will not be Jewish {if from a gentile woman}.

Those who Deny the Oral law are considered heretics from the Torah Jewish perspective.

And you shall call out and say before the Lord, your God, "An Aramean [sought to] destroy my forefather, and he went down to Egypt and sojourned there with a small number of people, and there, he became a great, mighty, and numerous nation.
Devarim/Ki Tavo 26:5

Offline Ron Ben Michael

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2009, 11:58:23 AM »
I cant believe I have posted the JEWISH response to this twice in this thread and nobody is paying attention. Apparently everyone is on their own little ego trip about this.

SINCE THE TORAH WAS GIVEN AT SINAI the determining factor of the childs status is passed by the Mother. If the mother is Jewish then the children are Jewish, but if only the father was Jewish then the children are not Jewish...

What is so hard to understand about this? There are several sources, both from the WRITTEN LAW, the Chumash, and from the ORAL LAW, the Talmud which prove this. Why do you continue to argue about it?

Either you are a real Jew and believe that Torah, the written and the oral law, were given at Sinai or you are not a real-Jew and are following some other religion which you think is Jewish... There is no question about whether Torah forbids a Jewish man from marrying a non-Jewish woman, because the children will not be Jewish {if from a gentile woman}.

Those who Deny the Oral law are considered heretics from the Torah Jewish perspective.



I do whatever G-D has told me to do, He's the last I'd question. I hope you don't question me (I'm Ron). I just refuted his arguments.

Offline EagleEye

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2009, 12:18:38 PM »
I'm not convinced by your argument.

I still believe in the days of the Torah, the definition of Jewish was by the father.  The definition changed in the Talmud.

BTW, I don't want to be Jewish.  You argue about Ego.  This isn't jealousy,  If I wanted to convert I could, and my father has a Gentile father so if you went by the father, I still wouldn't be a Jew.

Offline Ron Ben Michael

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Re: Who is a Jew? - Some insight from Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2009, 12:35:05 PM »
                                                      בס"ד

I'm not convinced by your argument.

I still believe in the days of the Torah, the definition of Jewish was by the father.  The definition changed in the Talmud.

BTW, I don't want to be Jewish.  You argue about Ego.  This isn't jealousy,  If I wanted to convert I could, and my father has a Gentile father so if you went by the father, I still wouldn't be a Jew.

We don't need to convince to convert G-D forbid, if that's what you meant.

Talmud is Torah, the Oral law (Torah She'Be'Al'Peh). If I understand what you mean with "the days of the Torah", still, no, this is only theory. The Jewishness is based on the mother line, ceou tout, like it or not. You don't give real arguments but only theories who have nothing to do with history or Halacha. You can believe whatever you want by the discussion is whether the Jewishness was always based on the mother line since the Torah was given to Am Israel, and I've given you the answer.

You don't know what Torah is, so no wonder you're "not" jealous.
What do you mean by your last sentence?