Bnei Adam Halachic dismantlement ruling: Druckman or "Dreckman"?

[galileerat]

One can half understand, from a "practical", "experienced" point of view R.Druckman's psak to allow the dismantling of "modular homes" at Bnei Adam http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418620136&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

But does it really not set a precedent?

Rav Kahane would himself be 77 today. The way of the world is that as most men get older, they become less firebrand, and more amenable to 'compromise' and 'peace'.

Although they weren't 'poskim' in the accepted sense, what would Rav Kahane have 'ruled' on Bnei Adam? And the Lubavitcher Rebbe?

Is R.Druckman today the best we have?!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Rabbi Druckman also demanded ("paskened") that IDF soldiers obey orders to throw Jews out of homes in Gush Katif.   As far as I am concerned, he has already discredited himself in the REAL national camp.  His rulings should not be given any relevance as he is an employee of the state.   This should be ignored.  What more is there to say?   With all due respect to a scholar like Rabbi Druckman.  What else can be said?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You are kidding yourself if you think Rabbi Kahane would have 'approved' of Gush Katif expulsion.  If he was still around, he would have led the fight against it and probably successfully.   That or because of him such a thing never would even have been considered.    Your pathetic attempt to try to justify Rabbi Druckman's anti-settlement stances might be well-intentioned, but it is surely misguided and misleading people in a damaging way.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

"http://samsonblinded.org/news/rabbi-druckma-12967"

Rabbi Druckman:  Vacate the land

In another of his ignominious rulings, Rabbi Haim Druckman, head of Bnei Akiva yeshivas, commanded the residents to vacate Bnei Adam outpost.

According to Rabbi Druckman, the agreement between the treacherous Council of Settlements and IDF takes precedence over the commandment which forbids us to abandon any part of the Land of Israel.

In the Sinai and Gaza evacuations, Rabbi Druckman ordered his followers to obey the government’s orders and vacate the Jewish villages.

Rabbi Meir Kahane wrote about Yamit:

For two of the leading rabbis of the Stop the Retreat Movement, alleged “hawks” Rabbi Moshe Tzvi Nerya, head of yeshivot Bnei Akiva and Rabbi Chaim Druckman, had ruled that a religious soldier who was ordered to remove settlers must do so, despite the fact that the evacuation was contrary to halacha. The ruling, so clearly contrary to the clear ruling in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 49) and Maimonides (ibid.), led Yamit Rabbi Yisrael Ariel to run to Rabbi Nerya, who had been his rabbi at Kfar Haroeh, and to ask him for his halachic source. Rabbi Ariel, two weeks ago, pleaded with soldiers standing at the roadblocks to disobey orders to remove settlers. His words, based on the above-mentioned halacha, led to demands by leftists for his arrest. His consolation was that he stood by the Torah ruling. Now, with the incredible stand taken by Rabbis Nerya and Druckman, he looked wan and weary as he sat in his home and told me of a threat by a famous rabbi that he would ask that Rabbi Ariel be arrested!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What can I say? He's obviously getting copious gelt from Binyamin Lewinsky.

[galileerat]

So what possessed R.Mordechai Eliyahu to uncharacteristically refer the psak to R.Druckman? At his age and after his hospitalization, maybe R.Eliyahu is gradually relinquishing his faculties?

Apparently he had a near-death experience in hospital and had a vision of the Other Side which shook him.

Maybe he is not prepared to take on the burden of giving a psak to fight and defend Bnei Adam, knowing that young Jews will have their heads cracked open, be jailed and fined because of it, something which he is not prepared to have on his Olam Haba "cheshbon"?

[MarZutra]

The sad fact remains that this would not be an issue had Rabbi Kahane been alive.  Had he been alive, he'd probably be heading the majority or minority government in Israel that would have annexed all of our lands and there wouldn't be one Arab left in Eretz.  ;o)  Jews would have become educated and find their Jewishness instead of coming to the aid of all others before their own...    imo

[galileerat]

The Artscroll on Tehillim 53 states that the many opponents of Moshiach, who will include Orthodox Jews, will actually to try to assassinate him.

If they had not been able to legally ban him in 1988, they would have physically torn R.Kahane apart rather than see him triumphant with 12 seats in the Knesset.

Just like they would shoot down the Lubavitcher Rebbe's plane over the Mediterranean if he was planning to lead a 300,000 person "March on Jerusalem" from Lod airport.

With the Erev Rav and Erev Ze'ir it goes that deep!

The tiny sprout of a Kahanist revival that occurred in Israel in 2000 sealed BZK's fate.

Anyone who arises who really  threatens the status quo is living on borrowed time, and will not survive in Israel without direct, continuous and miraculous Divine protection, akin to that given to Moshe Rabbeinu in Pharoah's court!

Under the current order of existence, CBP is far better off and safer in the USA. But things may change!

[MarZutra]

I don't know if you've ever read "Eim Habanim Semeicha" by Rabbi Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal but it also outlines the Orthodox mistaken views of Zionism and how we have and will suffer for their closed mindedness.  Israel would be a much different place today had Orthodox Jewry took an active role in the building of a Jewish State. 

[Spectator]

Galileerat, you have absolutely no authority to question Rabbi Mordechay Eliyahu's decisions and intentions. You are really not in his league.

It is also forbidden by Halacha to invent slanderous speculations.

He is a great Gdol HaDor and Torah sage, and you are either a bored attention-seeker or a failed provocateur.

[galileerat]

Although R.Eliyahu is decidedly in our camp, not to question a rabbi's decisions would be akin to being like those who say we should also not query the decisions of "Gedolim" like R.Ovadiya Yosef and R.Elazar Shach who ruled that "Land for Peace", supporting Oslo, and abandoning "settlements" were Halachically Kosher.



BZK said that in this generation there are no more Gedolim, and we must query everyone and everything.

[MarZutra]

Rabbi Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal, Rabbi Meir Kahane and other Religious Zionist leaders advocate to always question the leaders, including the Rabbis, especially since the misguided teachings that greatly contributed to the Shaoh. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So what possessed R.Mordechai Eliyahu to uncharacteristically refer the psak to R.Druckman? At his age and after his hospitalization, maybe R.Eliyahu is gradually relinquishing his faculties?

Apparently he had a near-death experience in hospital and had a vision of the Other Side which shook him.

Maybe he is not prepared to take on the burden of giving a psak to fight and defend Bnei Adam, knowing that young Jews will have their heads cracked open, be jailed and fined because of it, something which he is not prepared to have on his Olam Haba "cheshbon"?

Your propaganda is really pathetic.   You have a wild imagination.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

He is a great Gdol HaDor and Torah sage, and you are either a bored attention-seeker or a failed provocateur.

You hit the nail on the head with that one.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Rabbi Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal, Rabbi Meir Kahane and other Religious Zionist leaders advocate to always question the leaders, including the Rabbis, especially since the misguided teachings that greatly contributed to the Shaoh. 

Yes, question when they make a decision or say or do something that is questionable.   Not when they haven't done anything and you are "galileerat" who just wants to sling mud at rabbis for no reason.  His attack on Rabbi Mordecai Eliyahu is a disgrace, and the fact that galilee imagines that he knows what Rav Eliyahu is thinking is a joke.   It's also not wise for a person on this forum to pretend to give mystical reasons why he supports anti-settlement treason.    Talk about transparent. 

[galileerat]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418620136&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

The ruling by Druckman, considered moderate in his stand on settlements and in favor of compromise and pragmatism, was not unexpected.

More surprising was the fact that former Chief Sefaradi Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, who was originally consulted by the residents at Bnei Adam, had recommended that Druckman rule on the question.

Eliyahu, considered the most respected living halachic authority for the Orthodox Zionist community, was approached by Bnei Adam residents after a dispute broke out on whether it was permitted according to Halacha to voluntarily dismantle homes in the Land of Israel.

Some settlers argued that there was a religious prohibition against compromising on any piece of the Land of Israel. Assisting the government in evacuation was tantamount to committing a sin.

Others said it was preferable to voluntary dismantle the modular homes instead of letting the IDF destroy them.

Eliyahu was asked for his opinion. However, the 81-year-old rabbi, who was recently released from a prolonged hospitalization for heart troubles, said he could not rule on the issue. Instead, he referred the settlers to Druckman.

Eliyahu's son Shmuel, who is the chief rabbi of Safed, said his father chose Druckman, 75, because he was experienced.

Initially, a group of settlement activists led by former Kedumim mayor Daniella Weiss, who had come to Bnei Adam to reinforce opposition to a forced evacuation, rejected Druckman's ruling.

Weiss, together with members of Land of Israel Faithful and Land of Israel Youth, were unwilling to accept Druckman's ruling in part because of his track record of compromise.

[Spectator]

I wouldn't automatically believe to Jerusalem Post, especially on such sensitive issues. Moreover, Rabbi Eliyuahu certainly understands the situation better than you, me and JPost. He knows what he does and he doesn't have to explain you the reason of his halachic rules.

[MarZutra]

Yes, question when they make a decision or say or do something that is questionable.   Not when they haven't done anything and you are "galileerat" who just wants to sling mud at rabbis for no reason.  His attack on Rabbi Mordecai Eliyahu is a disgrace, and the fact that galilee imagines that he knows what Rav Eliyahu is thinking is a joke.   It's also not wise for a person on this forum to pretend to give mystical reasons why he supports anti-settlement treason.    Talk about transparent. 

This is true.  IMO there should be far more "settlements" and far more expulsions or transfer of Muhammadans (or any Jew/Israel haters) from Eretz. 

I also feel that the anti-American: globalist, communist, nazis, muslims should be deported to Cuba comparable to Castro's "flushing the toilets of Cuba" in 1988 ;-)

[Yochai]

I wouldn't automatically believe to Jerusalem Post, especially on such sensitive issues. Moreover, Rabbi Eliyuahu certainly understands the situation better than you, me and JPost. He knows what he does and he doesn't have to explain you the reason of his halachic rules.

One is fully allowed to criticize a psak, or in this case, the absence of a psak.

Rav Eliyahu is a great Rabbi and was a close friend of the Rav, and that is why I find this recent decision even more perplexing.

Of course, I have no criticism of this decision yet because I do not know the background to it, and until then, I cannot really make a judgment on it.  The problem that I find here is that Rav Eliyahu did not even pasken, nor does he seem to give a reason for why he chose not to make his own decision, and instead let Rabbi Drukman make the decision, even though Rav Eliyahu is probably better equipped with the knowledge to make a proper psak.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Well, from what I have read Rabbi Mordecai Eliyahu called on soldiers to obey orders to expel Jews in Gaza.  And also he opposed various protest measures.   I think he was one of the prominent voices saying that if we just love, love, love everyone, the 'decree will be annulled' and disengagement just "can't happen" in the end.   Well, it did.  Love didn't stop it.

http://www.ariga.com/2005-06-09.shtml

"The ruling coincided with indictments handed down against 30 more minors arrested in recent highway-blocking demonstrations against the disengagement, and with a call by former chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, an influential rabbi in the religious Zionist community, to soldiers to obey orders, even if those orders involve evacuating settlers. Eliyahu also came out against the road-blocking tactic, which has already led to the arrests of more than 500 people. The 30 were freed under strict conditions keeping them at home or in their communities, until the end of their trials. "

In my humble opinion, Rabbi Eliyahu made a mistake.  The surprising thing I guess would be that he perpetuates it by "deferring" to Rabbi Druckman, with whom the results are predictable.  But rather than surprise, perhaps we should notice a pattern has developed.



Here from A7...
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132897

"Ynet reported that Rabbi Druckman, in conjunction with Rabbi Eliyahu, ruled that the compromise should be accepted in this case. However, Weiss said, “We checked with Rabbi Eliyahu’s office, and he issued no such ruling. The people here are still shocked at the disinformation spread by the Yesha Council.”

She said that they could not accept Rabbi Druckman’s opinion on the matter, “since he was among those who opposed the refusal of orders [during the expulsion from Gush Katif in 2005]. That means that many of the religious soldiers who carried out the expulsion at the time were his students… Instead, he should have called a forum of Land of Israel rabbis to decide this topic. We are now awaiting Rabbi Levinger’s word.” "


So, on the one hand
Daniella Weiss is calling this disinformation spread by Yesha council, and not only is the jpost spreading it, but so are you galilee.  But worse than Jpost, you are trying to justify it with some wacked out mystical speculation.

On the other hand, this would be nothing new, if Rabbi Eliyahu did defer to Rabbi Druckman.   In his older age it appears Rabbi Eliyahu has become more and more loyal to the state of Israel as opposed to his original outlook which was Torah above all (as a youth he almost blew up knesset in planned religious takeover).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Here I found the quote I was thinking of on wikipedia... it's from an A7 radio interview where Rabbi Eliyahu clarified himself.

"During the Gaza expulsion, Eliyahu made multiple statements (some issued jointly with former Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Avraham Shapira,) which were widely interpreted as forbidding Orthodox Jews from participating in or facilitating the expulsion of the Jews from Gaza. Eliyahu later clarified his remarks by saying he did not mean for soldiers to engage in "active refusal"3:

...a soldier must tell his commander, "I am not refusing orders, but I cannot fulfill this order."... We do not want to dismantle the army that protects the residents and the citizens, and therefore we are against refusal in principle. The soldier must say, "I can't." If they force him to do this forbidden act, he should enter the family's house, sit on the floor, cry with them, and be saved from the prohibition in a passive manner.4 "

[Secularbeliever]

I don't say that I would never favor Jews abandoning territory but they better get somehing in return of very significant value.  I would not oppose abandoning an outpost if in return, Jews were guaranteed (credibly) they would be allowed to keep Kiryat Arba, Beit El, Yitzkar (sp?) and several other communities that are probably are on the wrong side of the fence and likely to be abandoned.

[galileerat]

Secular judges in Israel have to retire at 70. The law has been recently amended to allow religious dayanim to continue until 80. Pirke Avot says that at 80 a man is eiver botel, and with all due respect to R.Eliyahu, he is 81.

[Yochai]

Secular judges in Israel have to retire at 70. The law has been recently amended to allow religious dayanim to continue until 80. Pirke Avot says that at 80 a man is eiver botel, and with all due respect to R.Eliyahu, he is 81.

Pirke Avot:

He would also say: Five years is the age for the study of Scripture. Ten, for the study of Mishnah. Thirteen, for the obligation to observe the mitzvot. Fifteen, for the study of Talmud. Eighteen, for marriage. Twenty, to pursue [a livelihood]. Thirty, for strength, Forty, for understanding. Fifty, for counsel. Sixty, for sagacity. Seventy, for elderliness. Eighty, for power. Ninety, to stoop. A hundred-year-old is as one who has died and passed away and has been negated from the world.

The Hebrew says: בן שמונים לגבורה
.... בן מאה כאלו מת ועבר ובטל מן העולם

So an eighty year old is far from eiver botel.

[wonga66]

Looks like Druckman really should change his name to Dreckman!

Today: "I oppose any insubordination in Zahal!"
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1262339407498&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull



"There are some rabbis with big beards who in the Future World will be shown to have been complete kofrim!" (R.Nachman of Breslov)

What is Chayim's opinion of Druckman?