Author Topic: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?  (Read 48587 times)

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saintaugusto

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2007, 12:55:00 AM »
And by the way, sorry, if I mislead anyone, I'm not Christian. I'm a Jew (Sephardic+Ashkenazi).

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2007, 02:18:58 AM »
And coming back to the women issue... In order for women to act like women, men have to act like men. And please don't tell me that Torah doesn't appoint men as superior to women. You don't have to be a Rabbi to figure this out.
Men have to rule and hold at least 51% in a family. Period.
I agree.  Even some religious women don't seem to understand that men are supposed to rule the household. 
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2007, 09:44:28 AM »
You are Jewish?  Why do you not study Judaism and Jewish history so you will not have to ask such questions with such an anti-Israel, anti-Jewish, illogical and benighted tone to them?  Believe me, I'm no fan of the Government of the State of Israel nor our "Jewish" Organizations as they are not Jewish but Socialist in nature and do a great disservice to morality, Jewry, Israel and any G-d fearing moral abiding individual..

To answer your questions above, aside from Judaism not being a prostylitizing (spelling) religion, Israel was not an Nation that had its goals in building an expansive Empire like the Egyptians, Hittite, Assyrian, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Caliphate, Mongols or even the British.  Israel, as per location, sits in the middle of all of these peoples/nations with intentions on expanding their domination so logically the Jews/Israel stood in the way of this expansion and thus, logically, were exiled.  Israel, from my understanding was never a military society but one of building internally but always made alliances with any potential enemy to save agaisnt anther expansive enemy as seen with Egypt and Assyria or Babylonia... 

Perhaps, if as you say and I happen to agree with, the Jews of then and today had been united in borders, language and culture (from Savage) with real input in a dominant IDF (Defense Force) History might have turned out different as today it would have been different if Israel had annexed out right all the land from the purely defensive war in 1967 and "transfered" all the Muslims...today a fifth column as the Nazi's were in Austria and Czech during WW2.  Sadly we still pay the price...  PS: logic stems from not only the Torah but Sun Tsu's "The Art of War" and Macciavelli's "The Prince".  Logical in fact. 

You are largely correct as well about the Patriarchial system as it is also adopted by Christians and Muslims albeit Judaism affords far more liberties to woman than the latter especially Islam.  Judaism sees woman and men different but equal under G-d.  This is both logical and moral considering simply the biological differences.  There are things that women can do better than men logically based upon gender/biology as there are things men can do better than women.....in the vast majority of situations.  This is logical and has nothing to do with sexism or "feminism"...etc.

Women in Judaism can be scholors but not Rabbis of which a good example is the Chabud site Www.AskMoses.Com.

Judaism is the only faith that affords women moral and logical rights in its tennents re: Torah-Talmud while all others do not.  Islam is the prime example of the reverse as women are comparable to dirt, sin and should be covered.....not seen and not heard... 

I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful at all.  Should you have any questions please ask.  We all learn by asking questions not by blind statements.

Personally, I do not believe you are Jewish at all as per your chosen name "Saintaugusto".  Should you be Jewish than pose questions concerning what you have learned and wish to either have validation or an ulternative logic/thought supplied.  If you are Christian than do the same.  If you are a member of StørmFrønt or some ignoramus anti-semitic ultra-Leftist group....please say so and then we can get this debate on and over with as painlessly as possible as I do not tolerate intolerance and I am very closed minded to closed mindedness....  I hope you understand my concern and my logic....   :)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 09:46:14 AM by MarZutra »
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline Shlomo

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2007, 11:30:26 AM »
And coming back to the women issue... In order for women to act like women, men have to act like men. And please don't tell me that Torah doesn't appoint men as superior to women. You don't have to be a Rabbi to figure this out.
Men have to rule and hold at least 51% in a family. Period.
I agree.  Even some religious women don't seem to understand that men are supposed to rule the household. 

This is not Jewish thinking.

If we look at the story of creation, we see that after the human being has been created, G-d determines that the human being needs "a helpmate" but Eve isn't created yet. Instead, all the animals are created and Adam is asked to name them. And then it says something very strange in the Bible, "... but for Adam no fitting helpmate was found." Why on earth does is say this? What lesson is there to learn?

Why wasn't Adam happy with an animal for a helpmate? Because an animal is subordinate to man. It's not his equal. Adam was commanded earlier to "Have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." So Adam couldn't overcome his loneliness and find true love with a subordinate being over whom he ruled.

The Bible says this helpmate is to be "kenegdo". The Hebrew word kenegdo means "against, opposite, parallel to." Although the passage is often mistranslated in English as "I will make a fitting helpmate for him," the Hebrew ACTUALLY says, "I will make a fitting helpmate *against* him." G-d intends that Adam's helpmate be someone who (in a very positive, respectful way) will stand opposite him and engage him on parallel ground.

An animal may be a great thing to help Adam out with his work but because they are subordinate, he can't truly love them. You can't love without that type of mutual respect.
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2007, 03:02:23 PM »
Very good response Jeffguy...
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2007, 04:40:47 PM »
"Anti-Jewish thinking".  Yeah right.  Jeffguy, G-d said to Eve after she sinned with the tree of life that one of her curses was that "he will rule over you" (Genesis 3:16).  So the bible clearly states that the man is supposed to be the ruler of the household. 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 04:43:28 PM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Shlomo

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2007, 04:47:53 PM »
That was a curse. We aren't supposed to make the curse the ideal.

That's like saying we should get rid of air-conditioners while men work so we can earn bread by the sweat of our brow... or like saying we should stop giving women in delivery pain killers so they will have their pain multiplied.

We are supposed to fix the curse... not embrace it! G-d forbid.
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2007, 05:05:01 PM »
I'd like to know the Rabbinical/ Talmudic ruling on this actually...
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2007, 05:05:09 PM »
That was a curse. We aren't supposed to make the curse the ideal.

That's like saying we should get rid of air-conditioners while men work so we can earn bread by the sweat of our brow... or like saying we should stop giving women in delivery pain killers so they will have their pain multiplied.

We are supposed to fix the curse... not embrace it! G-d forbid.
That's your interpuitation but it is not accepted by any Jewish commentators or Scholars.  They all agree that the man must be the ruler of the household.  To answer your question, if G-d tells you something, you must fulfill it whether it was a curse or a blessing.  You can't skip over the sad depressing parts of the Bible and only fulfill only the happy sections or those parts you like.  G-d's will must be fulfilled.  There is no excuse by not fulfilling it because it was a curse.  G-d said that HE will greatly increase the pain of childbearing.  You are not violating that statement by giving pain killers, since G-d himself said that he will increase the pain of childbearing and he can do whatever he wants, whether you take medication or not.  Secondly, even with medication, childbearing was much easier before the curse.  If he said that "you must increase your childbearing pain" then she can't take excessive medication, but it was not said in that way.  Similarly, G-d stated that "he will rule over you".  That's what G-d said and it must be fulfilled.  It makes no difference if it was a curse or a blessing, there was no condition attached to this so it is an eternal commandment.  The reason why the man must be the ruler of the household is probably due to the woman sinning with the tree of knowledge and that pointed out a defect in a woman's nature that makes her unfit to be the leader of the household.  
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 05:10:06 PM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

saintaugusto

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2007, 06:36:02 PM »
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You are Jewish?  Why do you not study Judaism and Jewish history so you will not have to ask such questions with such an anti-Israel, anti-Jewish, illogical and benighted tone to them?

I think, you should slow down a little. What authority did you take upon yourself? In other words, who are you to tell me this?

saintaugusto

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2007, 06:41:57 PM »
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Israel, as per location, sits in the middle of all of these peoples/nations with intentions on expanding their domination so logically the Jews/Israel stood in the way of this expansion and thus, logically, were exiled.

Really? I think, I kinda figured it out on my own. What I am saying, my friend, I don't care what their intentions were. You just don't leave your homeland like this. If the whole nation had to die - fine! - at least we would die as men, and not as those who try to explain the intentions of the enemies.

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2007, 06:45:28 PM »
I most certainly can ask of such as many of your statements and questions are of the same logic some stormfronter would use.  Excuse me if I am wrong as it is the tone and position of earlier statements that were posted that allowed me to come to this conclusion.  This is what gives me the authority.  I have always tried to be kind and too polite......

Secondly....it is very logical to leave your lands when a massive, highly armed force invades your nation, killing, raping, robbing, enslaving, murdering....  The Armenian massacre is a very good example of a semi-similar modern expulsion... 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 06:48:00 PM by MarZutra »
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

saintaugusto

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2007, 06:46:21 PM »
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Perhaps, if as you say and I happen to agree with, the Jews of then and today had been united in borders, language and culture... PS: logic stems from not only the Torah but Sun Tsu's "The Art of War" and Macciavelli's "The Prince".  Logical in fact.

A-ha, so you do agree with me on this. The hope is not lost.

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2007, 06:49:27 PM »
I do agree.  If Israel happened to have a militarily competant army and was a military based society like Rome, Sparta, Carthage etc. then History may have been very different not only for Israel but the entire world.....   Many other societies and cultures had massive military societies but all collapsed...all had no moral compass, were illiterate and lacked a basis for a civil society.... ;)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 06:52:00 PM by MarZutra »
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

saintaugusto

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2007, 06:50:15 PM »
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You are largely correct as well about the Patriarchial system as it is also adopted by Christians and Muslims albeit Judaism affords far more liberties to woman than the latter especially Islam.

Wow, you agree with me on this too. I guess, we both think as storefronters then?

saintaugusto

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2007, 06:53:52 PM »
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Islam is the prime example of the reverse as women are comparable to dirt, sin and should be covered.....not seen and not heard...

I am not familiar with this interpretation. I know that Muslim women cover themselves not to provoke sexual thoughts in men, other than their husband.

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2007, 06:54:52 PM »
No, not at all.......  As I said earlier....some topics came accross as questionable while others not...  One of your previous posts you had negated and vilified Judaism because of its Patriarchial system as well the statements on Ashkenaz women....which I did not agree with..and came accross qustionable...  There are many passages that relate women in a very negative light....  Www.ProphetofDoom.Net or http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/Surai.htm
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 06:57:14 PM by MarZutra »
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

saintaugusto

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2007, 06:55:32 PM »
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Should you have any questions please ask.

I would encourage you to do the same.

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2007, 06:58:37 PM »
I will....when I have some.  Please remember that I was not the one that came on here making statements about Jewish Women and Judaism....for two example...  I will do the same my friend.. I will do so.   ;)

I do have a question...   How did you hear of JTF? 

"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

saintaugusto

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2007, 06:59:43 PM »
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Personally, I do not believe you are Jewish at all as per your chosen name "Saintaugusto".

That we will discuss when you finish your homework. Trust me, I remember how it was in the elementary school.

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #70 on: May 18, 2007, 07:01:46 PM »
What was it you said about Rabbi Kahane and Debating?  With comments like this my friend... you will not get along well on JTF....  You will note from the highlighted portion of my statement (above)...that it was both logical.... 

PS: I am well above an elementary level my friend....   
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 07:03:37 PM by MarZutra »
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

saintaugusto

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #71 on: May 18, 2007, 07:07:50 PM »
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This is not Jewish thinking.

Of course, it is not.

1) It is not Jewish to refer to G-d as He and not her, for example.
2) It is not Jewish to have all prophets male.
3) It is not Jewish to have only male rabbis.
4) It is not Jewish to think that the Covenant is executed through circumcision of boys.

Indeed not Jewish.

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #72 on: May 18, 2007, 07:12:59 PM »
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This is not Jewish thinking.

Of course, it is not.

1) It is not Jewish to refer to G-d as He and not her, for example.
2) It is not Jewish to have all prophets male.
3) It is not Jewish to have only male rabbis.
4) It is not Jewish to think that the Covenant is executed through circumcision of boys.

Indeed not Jewish.
What was that about Genesis 17:10-11?
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

saintaugusto

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2007, 07:14:04 PM »
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What was it you said about Rabbi Kahane and Debating?  With comments like this my friend... you will not get along well on JTF....

You have just broke my heart. I don't know where you stand in JTF, but your authoritarianism and megalomania have already turned me off from supporting it.

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Why do Jewish women have to be so Damn Liberal?
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2007, 07:18:02 PM »
not whatsoever my friend.  Always remember it was you who came on here, not to make friends, not to ask questions, not to learn but to insult the Ashkenzim women, insult Judaism, insulting me, saying Jews owe their faith to the Muslims or some such ineptness......  again.. I do not think I am wrong...  not at all.  I am emphatically not a control freak.  You have initiated either a debate or attack..... not..... i repeat not... a civil conversation...  Even if you look back on any and all of my posts.. I have not attacked you...  not whatsoever..  but posted out of logic and a moral conclusion based on your earlier posts.... 

Do you wish to start all over?  How are you brother... Welcome to the JTF forum.  I hope you have a good time posting and making friends....   Shabbat Shalom my friend...  ;)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 07:30:15 PM by MarZutra »
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.