Haredims and Kahanists ?

[The One and Only Mo]

You need more explanations? I can't be around men all the time. Women are a gift to the world. Plus I have a Secular approach to everything, including religion, including Judaism. I question everything and never take what somebody says to me face value.

I can't be a Heredi because:

- They had their own people killed in the Holocaust because they didn't want to go to Israel
- Many of them are Anti-Zionist
- I can't live my life not having any fun
- Heredis aren't really stylish
- I'm an individualist so I don't want to be following whatever a Rabbi says
- I'm a secular person
- They don't pay taxes or serve in the Israeli military
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies





































- I like the ladies

what are you implying?

Don't bother.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                    בס"ד

You need more explanations? I can't be around men all the time. Women are a gift to the world. Plus I have a Secular approach to everything, including religion, including Judaism. I question everything and never take what somebody says to me face value.

I can't be a Heredi because:

- They had their own people killed in the Holocaust because they didn't want to go to Israel
- Many of them are Anti-Zionist
- I can't live my life not having any fun
- Heredis aren't really stylish
- I'm an individualist so I don't want to be following whatever a Rabbi says
- I'm a secular person
- They don't pay taxes or serve in the Israeli military
- I like the ladies

Who tells you to be around men all the time? we're not Christian monks but there are limitations, we're not animals.
Ok, you need any proof/explanation for anything in Judaism, I can explain everything.

- So did "secular" Jews and at the time of th Holocaust there were more Haredis in Eretz Israel more than so-called "secular" Jews.
- So there are many other Jews from other groups and some of them are Rav Kahana, the ultimate Zionist.
- What does that have to do with the discussion? the prob is the definition of "having fun".
- Huh?
- Nobody tells you to do whatever he tells to do but when it comes to Halachic questions (for example, if I have a Halachic question I'll go to a Rabbi, if I have a question about the understanding of the geo-politic situation I'd to go to a military/security expert and/or go to library and to the History books.
- "Secularism" (what's that?) doesn't exist in Judaism.
-   Not living in Israel and knowing this about Haredis, there is a HUGE division especially for Haredis, Haredis WORK

They're the number 1 charity attributers and they care about Jews more than you would ever in your life, etc. They pay texas (some not but they're not even Israeli citizens and they got NOTHING from the State).
- I love women too but I'm not getting my ebb inclinations into control of me, I'm a human not a beast.

[FreedomFighter08]

You would love to lie your life separated with society? I don't like the whole reputation about Haredis as well. What's the point of this? I don't want to be Haredi. I can control myself as well but I'm still going to hang out with girls and not say "Oh I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to talk to girls unless I'm marrying them". They really sound like Jewish monks. They can do what they do but it's not for me. Why is this whole discussion turned to the reason why I wouldn't want to be ultra Orthodox?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                       בס"ד

You would love to lie your life separated with society? I don't like the whole reputation about Haredis as well. What's the point of this? I don't want to be Haredi. I can control myself as well but I'm still going to hang out with girls and not say "Oh I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to talk to girls unless I'm marrying them". They really sound like Jewish monks. They can do what they do but it's not for me. Why is this whole discussion turned to the reason why I wouldn't want to be ultra Orthodox?

Who lives his life seperated with society??
Who's forbbiden to talk with girls (with modest limits of course but why would the very talking be forbbiden)
Seems like your knowledge of Judaism is origined in the Bolshevik media and anti-Semitic cartoons and nothing further. How can you make sure they do that if you don't even know what Torah is???
And why are you mixing Christianity and Islam with Judaism?
what's "ultra Orthodox"? I don't know these definition.
Nobody makes you become a Haredi (I'm not), what does that have to do with the discussion? You know nothing about Torah so you choose between being an English speaking Gentile and something you don't know.

[The One and Only Mo]

You would love to lie your life separated with society? I don't like the whole reputation about Haredis as well. What's the point of this? I don't want to be Haredi. I can control myself as well but I'm still going to hang out with girls and not say "Oh I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to talk to girls unless I'm marrying them". They really sound like Jewish monks. They can do what they do but it's not for me. Why is this whole discussion turned to the reason why I wouldn't want to be ultra Orthodox?

It's not you, it's those people in your boat who are brainwashed by secular society/assimilation into becoming modern to the point of believing that there are doctrines of Judaism that are being dictated and are pointless and everybody who lives by them are miserable. It's hard for anyone to change, especially people raised in a certain way, but you must know that they are truly happy. You think you are happy with the physical/secular pleasures of life, which is common in today's society, but you have to understand that Judaism is based mostly on the World to Come and how to attain it using this world. If we lived our lives for ONLY this world, we would be worthless in the world to come. But like I said, nobody can expect somebody in your shoes to change. Just understand that Orthodox Jews believe in much more than the animal/physical temptations of this world .

[Zelhar]

If that small group of Charedim are anti-zionist, why do they even bother living in Israel?  Why don't they go live somewhere else?

Some communities have lived in Israel since the 18th century, some came during the late British and early independent. Essentially there has been a split in the Charedim- some chose an extreme reaction to zionism while most took a more moderate (and practical) stand.

[Zelhar]

It is important to understand that there is a whole spectrum of religious variates in Israel. Charedism itself is a large various section on the spectrum.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it.  Is that true?

Also another question:  Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?

Chareidi women know it very well, in most cases better than Chareidi men.  Because Charedi men's education is more focused on Talmud, while the women learn more on the Torah portion and more in Tanach.   But the men do know those things as well (obviously the Torah portion because it is a mitzvah to read it several times with commentary each week).    Maybe they are not as well versed in Tanach, that is likely true.   But the Dati Leumi communities incorporated Tanach learning more into their yeshiva system so they are stronger there if less capable in Talmud relative to Charedim.   But this is only speaking in generalities.  There will always be exceptions to these general rules, there will be certain people who excel in all of these subjects and can become leaders of communities due to their expertise.

[The One and Only Mo]

I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it.  Is that true?

Also another question:  Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?

Chareidi women know it very well, in most cases better than Chareidi men.  Because Charedi men's education is more focused on Talmud, while the women learn more on the Torah portion and more in Tanach.   But the men do know those things as well (obviously the Torah portion because it is a mitzvah to read it several times with commentary each week).    Maybe they are not as well versed in Tanach, that is likely true.   But the Dati Leumi communities incorporated Tanach learning more into their yeshiva system so they are stronger there if less capable in Talmud relative to Charedim.   But this is only speaking in generalities.  There will always be exceptions to these general rules, there will be certain people who excel in all of these subjects and can become leaders of communities due to their expertise.

There isn't Talmud learning without AT LEAST a somewhat strong background in written law.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You need more explanations? I can't be around men all the time. Women are a gift to the world. Plus I have a Secular approach to everything, including religion, including Judaism.  

Jewish men are not supposed to be constantly around only other men.  We ARE supposed to devote ourselves faithfully to the woman we marry and focus our attention on her, not other women.  That does not mean you can only hang with men.   But once you are married, why would you want to be around other women?   There is something seriously wrong with an attitude like that.    And until that day when you're married, you can go on dates and try to find the right woman for you.    Not sure what exactly you are saying here when you say sausage fests.  You want to "hang out with women" ?   If you are trying to say you would do so for the sake of variety and having nothing to do with wanting to have sexual encounters with these women, I do not believe you.

I question everything and never take what somebody says to me face value.

How is that a secular approach?  Who says that religiosity is excluded by having such an approach?

I can't be a Heredi because:

- They had their own people killed in the Holocaust because they didn't want to go to Israel

What you say here is just plain stupid.   No one "had their own people killed" in the holocaust except for the do-nothing worthless shmucks who looked on from the sidelines and did nothing when they could have helped.  Or Ben Gurion and the Jewish agency (Those are secularists, einstein) that sabotaged rescue of  Hungarian Jews.  All the people who were actually murdered did not ask to be, and that you blame the victims is an atrocious crime.

Do you realize how many secular or less religious/traditional (read, non-haredi!) Jews were murdered in the holocaust?   And they also refused to go to Israel, like the vast majority of Jews, religious or not.   But that attitude existed and persisted for hundreds of years in Jewish life.   Suddenly when the opportunity presented itself, the window closed very quickly and even if people wanted to go, they couldn't, beyond a certain time.   What you say here is incomprehensibly stupid and idiotic.

There were many orthodox Jews that were murdered, but there were also secular and everything in between.  And many of those "orthodox" would not be considered "haredi" by today's standards or even by the standards at that time.   Because Orthodox was the bastion of tradition, while the modern yeshivish "haredi" is really a more extreme offshoot.  Either way, what you say is illogical.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

- Many of them are Anti-Zionist

Many but not all.  So what?  Are you a zionist?   And if so, are you in Israel?   If you are not in Israel, you are not really living out any actual zionism.  So what difference would it make anyway?  But like I said, not all of them are anti-zionist.   Not even the majority.  The majority are so-called "non-zionist."  And of course some are zionistic.  Why can't you choose to be what you are?

- I can't live my life not having any fun 

What is "fun" that you can't have in your life if you were haredi?   Do you define "fun" as eating a cheeseburger or breaking some halacha?  Or is it something else?   I'm curious to know why you think "fun" is forbidden in haredi society, but first I must know what you define as 'fun.'

- Heredis aren't really stylish

That may be, but 1. who says you have to dress like them, and 2.  that says nothing about whether or not their beliefs are true or not.

- I'm an individualist so I don't want to be following whatever a Rabbi says

What's an individualist?  Please define that.  You don't have to 'do whatever a rabbi says.'   Only if you ask a halachic shaila.  Otherwise, you can take advice or not take advice, ask for it or not ask for it.   It's always good to seek advice from a wise person whether you end up taking it or not.  I'm sure you do do that for your big decisions, only instead of a rabbi, you call the person "friend" or "mom" or whatever else.

- They don't pay taxes or serve in the Israeli military

That's true for some but not all.  So why can't you just be yourself?  If you want to pay taxes pay them and you want to serve, serve.  This is mostly shtuyot, and not the real essence of being "haredi" or a religious Jew.   Even if some people think it is.

- I'm a secular person
- I like the ladies

What does it mean that you "like the ladies?"  Does this mean that you have illicit relations with multiple females out of wedlock?   If so, the problem is not that you can't be haredi, your problem is that you are unable to be JEWISH!  There is no strain of Jewish religion that encourages this behavior, not even your local Deform rabbi.

[The One and Only Mo]

- Many of them are Anti-Zionist

Many but not all.  So what?  Are you a zionist?   And if so, are you in Israel?   If you are not in Israel, you are not really living out any actual zionism.  So what difference would it make anyway?  But like I said, not all of them are anti-zionist.   Not even the majority.  The majority are so-called "non-zionist."  And of course some are zionistic.  Why can't you choose to be what you are?

- I can't live my life not having any fun 

What is "fun" that you can't have in your life if you were haredi?   Do you define "fun" as eating a cheeseburger or breaking some halacha?  Or is it something else?   I'm curious to know why you think "fun" is forbidden in haredi society, but first I must know what you define as 'fun.'

- Heredis aren't really stylish

That may be, but 1. who says you have to dress like them, and 2.  that says nothing about whether or not their beliefs are true or not.

- I'm an individualist so I don't want to be following whatever a Rabbi says

What's an individualist?  Please define that.  You don't have to 'do whatever a rabbi says.'   Only if you ask a halachic shaila.  Otherwise, you can take advice or not take advice, ask for it or not ask for it.   It's always good to seek advice from a wise person whether you end up taking it or not.  I'm sure you do do that for your big decisions, only instead of a rabbi, you call the person "friend" or "mom" or whatever else.

- They don't pay taxes or serve in the Israeli military

That's true for some but not all.  So why can't you just be yourself?  If you want to pay taxes pay them and you want to serve, serve.  This is mostly shtuyot, and not the real essence of being "haredi" or a religious Jew.   Even if some people think it is.

- I'm a secular person
- I like the ladies

What does it mean that you "like the ladies?"  Does this mean that you have illicit relations with multiple females out of wedlock?   If so, the problem is not that you can't be haredi, your problem is that you are unable to be JEWISH!  There is no strain of Jewish religion that encourages this behavior, not even your local Deform rabbi.

pwned

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I'm still going to hang out with girls and not say "Oh I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to talk to girls unless I'm marrying them".

You can talk to a girl without marrying her.   You are forbidden to touch her or engage in sexual behavior with her without marrying her.   If you have a problem with this, your problem is not with haredim, but with God.   Take it up with Him?

Why is this whole discussion turned to the reason why I wouldn't want to be ultra Orthodox?

Because you made a post that said:
"One of the fourty one reasons why I can't be a cheredi."
And then another one that said "It was a joke. I could probably think of 284 reasons though. I can't be separated from the opposite sex though. I'd probably go insane living my life in a sausage fest."

And then a third post where you proceeded to list your "reasons"

Look, nobody is saying you have to be "haredi" but it seems to me that your problem is with Judaism more than it is with any particular strain of haredism or the general haredi world.

Anyway, are you even Jewish?   If not, this entire convo may have been pointless....

[The One and Only Mo]

You would love to lie your life separated with society? I don't like the whole reputation about Haredis as well. What's the point of this? I don't want to be Haredi. I can control myself as well but I'm still going to hang out with girls and not say "Oh I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to talk to girls unless I'm marrying them". They really sound like Jewish monks. They can do what they do but it's not for me. Why is this whole discussion turned to the reason why I wouldn't want to be ultra Orthodox?

It's not you, it's those people in your boat who are brainwashed by secular society/assimilation into becoming modern to the point of believing that there are doctrines of Judaism that are being dictated and are pointless and everybody who lives by them are miserable. It's hard for anyone to change, especially people raised in a certain way, but you must know that they are truly happy. You think you are happy with the physical/secular pleasures of life, which is common in today's society, but you have to understand that Judaism is based mostly on the World to Come and how to attain it using this world. If we lived our lives for ONLY this world, we would be worthless in the world to come. But like I said, nobody can expect somebody in your shoes to change. Just understand that Orthodox Jews believe in much more than the animal/physical temptations of this world .

re-read before you go on the defensive.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it.  Is that true?

Also another question:  Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?

Chareidi women know it very well, in most cases better than Chareidi men.  Because Charedi men's education is more focused on Talmud, while the women learn more on the Torah portion and more in Tanach.   But the men do know those things as well (obviously the Torah portion because it is a mitzvah to read it several times with commentary each week).    Maybe they are not as well versed in Tanach, that is likely true.   But the Dati Leumi communities incorporated Tanach learning more into their yeshiva system so they are stronger there if less capable in Talmud relative to Charedim.   But this is only speaking in generalities.  There will always be exceptions to these general rules, there will be certain people who excel in all of these subjects and can become leaders of communities due to their expertise.

There isn't Talmud learning without AT LEAST a somewhat strong background in written law.

Written Law, yes.  Tanach, not so much.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Btw "

I question everything and never take what somebody says to me face value.
How is that a secular approach?  Who says that religiosity is excluded by having such an approach?

This is actually a good approach to learning Talmud well.

[The One and Only Mo]

I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it.  Is that true?

Also another question:  Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?

Chareidi women know it very well, in most cases better than Chareidi men.  Because Charedi men's education is more focused on Talmud, while the women learn more on the Torah portion and more in Tanach.   But the men do know those things as well (obviously the Torah portion because it is a mitzvah to read it several times with commentary each week).    Maybe they are not as well versed in Tanach, that is likely true.   But the Dati Leumi communities incorporated Tanach learning more into their yeshiva system so they are stronger there if less capable in Talmud relative to Charedim.   But this is only speaking in generalities.  There will always be exceptions to these general rules, there will be certain people who excel in all of these subjects and can become leaders of communities due to their expertise.

There isn't Talmud learning without AT LEAST a somewhat strong background in written law.

Written Law, yes.  Tanach, not so much.

Tanach includes the 5 books of Moses. Maybe you guys are referring to Nach.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Written Law, yes.  Tanach, not so much.

Tanach includes the 5 books of Moses. Maybe you guys are referring to Nach.

Yes I was referring to Naviim and Ketuvim mostly.  I figured that is what he meant.   

[The One and Only Mo]

Written Law, yes.  Tanach, not so much.

Tanach includes the 5 books of Moses. Maybe you guys are referring to Nach.

Yes I was referring to Naviim and Ketuvim mostly.  I figured that is what he meant.   

Regardless, they learn enough of it and know plenty. Not to mention, a lot of it is already used in the Talmud.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Written Law, yes.  Tanach, not so much.

Tanach includes the 5 books of Moses. Maybe you guys are referring to Nach.

Yes I was referring to Naviim and Ketuvim mostly.  I figured that is what he meant.   

Regardless, they learn enough of it and know plenty. Not to mention, a lot of it is already used in the Talmud.

I think what they learn of it is mostly as kids, and you don't retain that much knowledge of it.  The more operational knowledge is of talmud, the mode the yeshiva switches to at rather young age nowadays.   You can't learn all your nach from Talmud and say that that is sufficient or adequate knowledge of those texts.  (Although some will say "that's all you need to know!" - I don't think that's an intellectually honest position.)  Nonetheless, the women know tanach rather well.    And of course there are always exceptions.  But for sure, the zionist yeshivot incorporated the tanach study for a reason.. Because it was lacking in the yeshivot.  It is not a main focus.  Some lament this, others celebrate it, others perhaps are indifferent or don't realize things can be different or don't find them worth changing even if they don't like it entirely.

[The One and Only Mo]

Written Law, yes.  Tanach, not so much.

Tanach includes the 5 books of Moses. Maybe you guys are referring to Nach.

Yes I was referring to Naviim and Ketuvim mostly.  I figured that is what he meant.   

Regardless, they learn enough of it and know plenty. Not to mention, a lot of it is already used in the Talmud.

I think what they learn of it is mostly as kids, and you don't retain that much knowledge of it.  The more operational knowledge is of talmud, the mode the yeshiva switches to at rather young age nowadays.   You can't learn all your nach from Talmud and say that that is sufficient or adequate knowledge of those texts.  (Although some will say "that's all you need to know!" - I don't think that's an intellectually honest position.)  Nonetheless, the women know tanach rather well.    And of course there are always exceptions.  But for sure, the zionist yeshivot incorporated the tanach study for a reason.. Because it was lacking in the yeshivot.  It is not a main focus.  Some lament this, others celebrate it, others perhaps are indifferent or don't realize things can be different or don't find them worth changing even if they don't like it entirely.

Right, but the point is that they know enough even though they may focus more on gemara as they get older.

[Dr. Dan]

What do you mean that the haredim are not stylish?!  I think the peyot are cutest things ever!!!!!!!!!

[muman613]

What do you mean that the haredim are not stylish?!  I think the peyot are cutest things ever!!!!!!!!!

My Peyot are the cutest things ever..... I havent cut them in over 3 years...

[Dr. Dan]

If it was accepted by my wife and family I woukd consider growing them except for the fact it be a chilool hshem because I don't wear a kippa nor shomer shabbat etc. But peyot are beautiful and I do have a fascination with them

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

It is important to understand that there is a whole spectrum of religious variates in Israel. Charedism itself is a large various section on the spectrum.

i really hope their numbers grow, but i read somewhere here mention that Charedim men cannot interact with women? does that mean they have to live a celibate life? THen its really difficult for their numbers to grow.