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Offline White Israelite

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Judaism: Forbidden art?
« on: February 01, 2010, 03:46:30 AM »
I've been reading rabbi interpretation of halacha and from my understanding, it's forbidden to draw an image of a man or anything that would represent Hashem or the stars, moon, sun. This article goes as far as to claim that one should deface a statue, trophy, or a doll with human features.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache%3AQxZiLXoMHacJ%3Awww.thehalacha.com%2Fattach%2FVolume3%2FIssue8.pdf+Shulchan+Aruch%2C+Y.D.%2C+141%2C+4&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbRzEki02yhTpDM9CCsG-QvyCeSXjQ&pli=1

Is this true? I am looking to get into art myself and do some sketches myself and would not want to engage in forbidden activity. I have seen some Jewish art that focuses on drawing people and while finding such artwork is rare (when I think of Jewish art, I don't think of focusing on a person as the picture), what I have seen is very well done and I am curious if this is a violation of halacha?

I've noticed such images of the Israelites is rare if not impossible to find and the only artwork that can be found is from Egyptians portrayal and some Assyrian drawings. There is also a picture of the Habiru in Egyptian hieroglyphics which some scholars claim are infact the Hebrews but that has not been proven yet.

There are some crude drawings of lions and some other animals but I would assume that a lot of the artwork is rare from those days because of the occupation from various empires throughout the course of history. It's hard enough finding documents and I'm sure finding art is going to be even more difficult.

Offline muman613

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 10:00:47 AM »
Yes, it is true that the commandment concerning images includes the command not to make images of man....

Look at the second of the ten commandments:

Shemot/Exodus 20
3 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
4 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

Apparently the command is that we should not make graven images of anything which Hashem has created {likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or on earth or in the water}....

I do not have any pictures in my house of anything other than landscapes {though technically this too is forbidded by a strict interpretation of this commandment}....

http://www.modia.org/infos/etudes/artjudaism.html

According to this article some art is permissable... I have not read this entire link but it may answer some of your questions...

« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 10:08:05 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lisa

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 10:21:49 AM »
So does that mean little Jewish girls are not allowed to own dolls?  In a Judaica store near where I live, they have a bride doll in the window. 

Offline muman613

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 10:52:47 AM »
So does that mean little Jewish girls are not allowed to own dolls?  In a Judaica store near where I live, they have a bride doll in the window. 

Taking the commandment 100% literally it would forbid this... But there must be some opinions which allow it. I have been trying to find a website which spells out the halacha completely...

Apparently 'graven images' means an image which is created for worshipping... I don't know if dolls of today are created for this purpose...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 11:05:50 AM »
Apparently 'graven images' means an image which is created for worshipping... I don't know if dolls of today are created for this purpose...
I have always wondered about this and why Jews and Christians have a different interpretation of this commandment (we have never read it to prohibit images, just those that are meant as idols). Does the Oral Torah or Mishnahs go into more detail about what "graven" means?

Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 02:14:36 PM »
So does that mean little Jewish girls are not allowed to own dolls?  In a Judaica store near where I live, they have a bride doll in the window. 

You can still play with 'My Little Pony' if you want...

Offline Lisa

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2010, 02:46:07 PM »
?????

Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2010, 02:55:35 PM »

Offline muman613

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2010, 03:00:14 PM »
?????

Ponies are not human?

Bio, but the second commandment says not to make anything living, anything on earth and under the water....

I think that this interpretation is the 'strict' interpretation and I have seen more liberal interpretations even from Orthodox sources...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2010, 03:02:22 PM »
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/default.aspx?srch=1&cat=&search_in=2&q=images

Question:
Could you offer me some explanation on what the Torah translates as "Graven Images". I don’t know Hebrew. What is the Hebrew word for ’graven.’


Answer:
The hebrew word usually translated as "Graven Images" is "Pesel" (Exodus 20;3, Dueteronomy 5;7) which literaly means sculptored image, and is apparently refering to images constructed for the purposes of worship. There are other words refering to idolatry such as "Temunah" which literally means picture or likeness, and "Pesel Masecha" which means molten idol (like the golden calf).



http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/Shiur.asp?id=7566

Grave Issues about Graven Images
Rabbi Yirmiyohu Kaganoff

Written by the rabbi

Dedicated to the memory of
R' Meir b"r Yechezkel Shraga Brachfeld zt"l

Miriam recently asked me these two questions regarding avodah zarah:

1) I received some figurines from a museum shop which resemble various Egyptian gods. May I keep them to demonstrate at the Seder what silly gods the Egyptians worshipped?

2) My non-observant, but very respectful, father has a rather eclectic collection of various art objects -- including a four-foot-tall bronze statue of some Hindu figure. Do I have any obligation to say or do anything?

Zev, a chess enthusiast, asked me the following:

"I just received a present of a very nicely carved chess set. Unfortunately the king has a cross. May I keep the set as is, or must I break off the cross on the king?"

Each of these shaylos revolves upon the question of whether a Jew may own an item that has idolatrous overtones even though he has no idolatrous intention. Is this lack of intent sufficient to avoid any Torah violations?

As we will see, there are several potential shaylos that we must analyze to determine the halacha:

I. May a Jew look at an icon?

II. Does it make a difference whether it is worshipped?

III. May a Jew own an icon that represents an idol, even if it was never worshipped?

IV. If owning this icon infringes on no other prohibitions, does it violate maris ayin, doing something that looks suspicious?

In Parshas Eikev, the Torah commands: "Burn their carved gods in fire. Do not desire and obtain the silver or gold that is upon them, lest you become snared by it, for it is hideous to Hashem your G-d. Nor shall you bring this repugnancy into your house; rather, you should ban it. Abhor it and revile it for it is banned" (Devorim 7:25-26).

This pasuk includes the following mitzvos:

1. Burn their carved gods in fire commands us to destroy avodah zarah (Rambam, Hilchos Avodah Zarah 7:1). This mitzvah is also mentioned in Devorim 12:2.

2. Do not desire and obtain the silver or gold that is upon them prohibits benefit even from the decorations on an idol (Chinuch, Mitzvah 428). One may not own or sell idols even if one thinks that they are the silliest things on earth, since he gains financially or in other ways.

3. Nor shall you bring this repugnancy into your house bans bringing an idol into your house and also forbids benefiting from idolatry (Rambam, Hilchos Avodah Zarah 7:2).

4. Furthermore, the Torah states al tifnu el elilim, do not turn to idols (VaYikra 19:4). What is included in this proscription? Does it include looking at idols or images that represent idols?

The Sifra (VaYikra 19:4) quotes two interpretations of this verse, one that prohibits studying idolatry, including its beliefs and how the idol is worshipped. A second approach understands the verse to forbid even looking at idols (Yerushalmi, Avodah Zarah 3:1). The poskim rule that both approaches are accepted halacha, the Torah thus prohibits studying idolatrous practices and beliefs as well as looking at icons (Rambam, Hilchos Avodah Zarah 2:2; Sefer HaMitzvos, Lo Saaseh #10; Chinuch #213). The Rambam (Sefer HaMitzvos, Lo Saaseh #10) states that one receives malkus for violating this prohibition. Therefore, someone who violates either interpretation of this mitzvah is halachically invalid to provide testimony even if he has no idolatrous intent.

DOES THAT MEAN THAT EVEN GLANCING AT AN IDOL IS A TORAH VIOLATION?

The Magen Avraham (307:23) explains that the Torah prohibits only gazing at an idol, but does not prohibit glancing at it. Therefore, seeing it is not prohibited, but intentionally looking at it is.

THE ICON OR ONLY THE IDOL?
May one look at articles that only represent the actual idol even though they are not themselves worshipped, or is the prohibition limited to idols that are worshipped? The answer to this question depends on how one understands the following passage of Gemara:

"One may not read the caption underneath a painting or image on Shabbos. [This is included in the violation of reading documents on Shabbos.] Furthermore, one may not look at the image itself even on weekdays because one thereby violates ‘Do not turn to idols.’ How do we derive this law from this verse? Rav Chanin explained, ‘do not turn to works created by man’s own initiative’" (Shabbos 149a).

This passage implies that one may not look at any image, even one not worshipped, because looking at any image is already considered a form of idolatrous practice.

On the other hand, elsewhere the Gemara (Avodah Zarah 50a) praises the Talmudic scholar Rabbi Menachem ben Sima’ie as a holy man because he never looked at the images that one finds on coins. This implies that an especially holy person does not look at figures, but a person who observes halacha without chumros may do so. Thus, we are faced with a seeming inconsistency: one Gemara statement prohibits looking at any image, the other implies that one may (although it is meritorious to avoid).

The Rishonim suggest several different approaches to resolve this quandary:

1. First opinion: Some contend that the prohibition of looking at an image applies only to what was actually worshipped, and a coin’s image is not worshipped. According to this opinion, although the Gemara seems to derive that one may not look at any painting or image whatsoever, it really means to limit the prohibition to actual worshipped idols. Nevertheless, it is praiseworthy not to look at any pictures or images at all.
(Tosafos, Shabbos).

2. Second opinion: The Rosh expands the previous approach moderately, prohibiting looking at an image meant for worship, even if the image has not been worshipped. In his opinion, the Gemara prohibits looking at any painting or image that was made for idolatrous purposes, even if it was never worshipped.

3. Third opinion: A third approach understands the Gemara literally -- that it prohibits looking at any image whatsoever (Rashi; Tosafos Rid). If this approach is correct, why does the Gemara in Avodah Zarah imply that Rabbi Menachem ben Sima’ie’s acts are meritorious but not required, when the Gemara in Shabbos prevented looking at any image?

To answer this question, some explain that although it is prohibited to look at any image, this is so only when someone may be led astray from the Torah by the image. Since coins are in common use all the time, they do not tempt us to violate the Torah (Tosafos, Avodah Zarah 50a).

EGYPTIAN FIGURINES
Whether one may own a replica of an ancient Egyptian icon depends on the above-quoted dispute among the Rishonim. According to the first opinion quoted above, since these icons were meant for educational purposes rather than to encourage worship, it is technically permitted to look at them (although it is meritorious to refrain). On the other hand, according to the other opinions, even looking at these pieces violates the Torah’s mitzvah since they are not common and therefore attract attention, all the more so that owning one is problematic.

How does the Shulchan Aruch adjudicate this question?

Surprising as it may seem, two statements of Shulchan Aruch appear to contradict one another. In Orach Chayim (307:16) he cites the above-mentioned Gemara in Shabbos in a way that implies that he prohibits looking as any image at all. On the other hand, in his laws on idolatry, he limits the prohibition to looking at bona fide worshipped idols. It is also noteworthy that there he cites a different reason to prohibit looking at idols, because enjoying the artwork is considered benefiting from idolatry (Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 142:15, quoting Rabbeinu Yerucham).

However, the major commentators on the Shulchan Aruch in both places note that the accepted practice is to prohibit only icons manufactured for worship (Shach; Magen Avraham). Therefore, as far as the prohibition of looking at icons is concerned, Miriam may save her figurines for the Seder, although it is more meritorious not to. Thus, the better choice of action is to dispose of the figurines rather than saving them for educational purposes.

I will discuss shortly another possible prohibition involved, that of maris ayin.

COLLECTING ICON STAMPS
A stamp dealer-collector asked Rav Moshe Feinstein whether he could own, buy and sell stamps that contain crosses and other idolatrous images. Rav Moshe ruled that since stamps are a common item, like coins, one may own or sell their images, and may also look at them. Rav Moshe mentions that it is meritorious not to, presumably for the same reason that Rabbi Menachem of the Gemara avoided looking at coins (Igros Moshe, Yoreh Deah 1:69).

ZEV’S CHESS SET
According to the reasons we have applied so far, Zev may be able to keep his fancy carved chess set. No one worships the cross on the king, and one could perhaps argue that this is familiar enough that no one is led astray by these pieces. As mentioned above, it is meritorious not to have any images at all, and this is certainly a good reason why the custom is to break off the cross of such chess pieces.

However, Miriam’s Dad’s Hindu statue involves a more serious halacha problem. Firstly, if this image was manufactured for worship all opinions prohibit looking at this idol and enjoying it. Furthermore if it was once worshipped, then several other Torah violations are involved, including that of having an avodah zarah in one’s house and benefiting from avodah zarah (because he enjoys looking at the artwork). In addition, there is a mitzvah to destroy it.

SHOULD WE ASSUME THAT THIS STATUE WAS WORSHIPPED?
Are we required to assume that the Hindu statue was worshipped? After all, it looks as if it was created as a collector’s item, not for worship.

The answer is that if this statue was manufactured in a place where images of this nature are worshipped, he must assume that this icon is a bona fide idol (Rama, Yoreh Deah 141:3 and Shach ad loc. 17).

IS IT MARIS AYIN?
In addition to the halachic problem of looking at these idols, the Gemara (Avodah Zarah 43b) raises a concern that someone might suspect that the owner worships them.

Are we today still concerned that someone might worship idols?
The answer to this question goes back to understanding the basics of maris ayin. Doesn’t the concept of maris ayin conflict with the mitzvah of judging people favorably? If everyone always judged others favorably, there would never be a reason for maris ayin. Yet we see that the Torah is concerned that someone might judge unfavorably and suspect a Torah Jew for violating a mitzvah.
Indeed, although we are required to judge favorably, we are also not permitted to do something that others may misinterpret as violating halacha. Therefore a person’s actions must be above suspicion, while people watching him act in a suspicious way are required to judge him favorably. In other words, a person should not rely on his sterling reputation to do something that might be misinterpreted.
However, if circumstances dictate that people will assume that nothing wrong was done, there is no violation of maris ayin. Indeed, even in cases where there was maris ayin at the time of the Gemara, the prohibition is rescinded in places and times when the concern no longer exists.
Concerning maris ayin and the prohibition of avodah zarah, the poskim conclude that if no one worships these icons anymore anywhere in the world, one need not be concerned of suspicion that they are worshipped (see Rama, Shach, and Gra, Yoreh Deah 141:3). However, as long as these idols are worshipped somewhere, one must be concerned about maris ayin.
Thus, it makes a difference whether this particular idol is still worshipped somewhere in the world. Since, unfortunately, there are still Hindus in the world, one may not own an idol that they might worship because of the prohibition of maris ayin, even if no other prohibition to its ownership exists. On the other hand, since no one worships the ancient Egyptian idols any more, it is not maris ayin to own these figurines.

TEACHING ANCIENT RELIGIONS
I mentioned above that the Sifra rules that studying idolatry, including what the religion believes and how the idol is worshipped, is prohibited min hatorah as part of the mitzvah of al tifnu el elilim, do not turn to idols.
Does this include studying ancient religions or archeology? Does this prohibit reading mythology as a form of literature?
In Nisan 5740 (1960), Rav Yehudah Parnas, a prominent Rosh Yeshivah, asked Rav Moshe Feinstein regarding an observant public school teacher whose required ancient history curriculum included teaching the beliefs of ancient Greece and Rome. Rav Parnes inquired whether the fact that the entire world now views these religions with disrespect validates studying and teaching their beliefs. Do we therefore permit teaching these religions since one is mocking them, or is this teaching and studying still prohibited?
Rav Moshe rules that the prohibition to study idolatry exists regardless of why one studies the religion. This also prohibits reading mythology that includes idolatry even as a study of ancient literature.
However, Rav Moshe contends that the Torah prohibits studying only what is authored by a proponent of the religion. One may study something written by someone who scoffed at the religion, just as we see that even the Torah sometimes describes the way idolaters worshipped in order to ridicule the practice. Therefore Rav Moshe rules that one may only study these matters if the teacher derides their beliefs and does not have the students read texts written by believers in the idols.
Rav Moshe point out that the students may even benefit from this instruction if they realize that, although most of the world’s population once accepted these ridiculous beliefs, this does not demonstrate that these beliefs are true. Similarly, the fact that millions of people accept certain other false notions as true is not evidence to their veracity (Igros Moshe, Yoreh Deah 2:53).
In conclusion to our original questions, Miriam may save the Egyptian figurines although it is praiseworthy to dispose them, but her father may not hold onto his Hindu statue even as art or to mock it. Zev may keep his chess set.
Our belief in Hashem is the most basic of mitzvos. Praiseworthy is he who stays far from idols and their modern substitutes and directs his heart to Hashem.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2010, 03:14:14 PM »
http://www.oztorah.com/2009/10/inartistic-synagogues-ask-the-rabbi/

Q. Why is there more decorative art in churches than in synagogues?

A. There are a number of popular theories, e.g. that the strict observance of the Second Commandment with its ban on graven images prevented synagogues from indulging in art, and that Jewish communities were uprooted so often that they preferred makeshift synagogues that served a practical purpose and had little artistic embellishment. Both theories are not entirely correct, since there is evidence of art in ancient synagogues (a number of synagogal mosaics, for example, have been unearthed in Israel); and in the Middle Ages and later, many synagogues were impressive and solid edifices.

There is another factor which played an important role: the attitude to the Bible. In Judaism, the words and message of the Bible were an art form in themselves, and embellishing the synagogue or house of study with artistic creations was hardly necessary. Further, in Judaism everyone could read and the Bible was the inheritance of the people, whilst in Christianity the scriptures were the preserve of the priests and the people were largely illiterate. What ordinary worshippers knew of the Bible was read from the pictures, statues and icons which surrounded them in their churches and cathedrals.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2010, 04:00:43 PM »
I've been reading rabbi interpretation of halacha and from my understanding, it's forbidden to draw an image of a man or anything that would represent Hashem or the stars, moon, sun. This article goes as far as to claim that one should deface a statue, trophy, or a doll with human features.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache%3AQxZiLXoMHacJ%3Awww.thehalacha.com%2Fattach%2FVolume3%2FIssue8.pdf+Shulchan+Aruch%2C+Y.D.%2C+141%2C+4&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbRzEki02yhTpDM9CCsG-QvyCeSXjQ&pli=1

Is this true? I am looking to get into art myself and do some sketches myself and would not want to engage in forbidden activity. I have seen some Jewish art that focuses on drawing people and while finding such artwork is rare (when I think of Jewish art, I don't think of focusing on a person as the picture), what I have seen is very well done and I am curious if this is a violation of halacha?

I've noticed such images of the Israelites is rare if not impossible to find and the only artwork that can be found is from Egyptians portrayal and some Assyrian drawings. There is also a picture of the Habiru in Egyptian hieroglyphics which some scholars claim are infact the Hebrews but that has not been proven yet.

There are some crude drawings of lions and some other animals but I would assume that a lot of the artwork is rare from those days because of the occupation from various empires throughout the course of history. It's hard enough finding documents and I'm sure finding art is going to be even more difficult.

Hmm good question although I think there is a difference between drawing a picture and making an actual figurine out of it.  I know the figurine type thing is forbidden.   That's usually what graven images refers to - a carving or statue.   I remember something related to this came up last year but can't remember what my rosh yeshiva had said about it.

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2010, 11:41:23 PM »
Is the statue of David forbidden then? Am I violating halacha by sketching people or drawing life like pictures of people?

Offline muman613

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2010, 11:46:17 PM »
Is the statue of David forbidden then? Am I violating halacha by sketching people or drawing life like pictures of people?

As I have stated here it is up to the Rabbi to determine the halacha for you. I don't see a clear cut answer from what I have looked into. I usually take the strict interpretation and pretty much avoid all images in my house... I have no statues, no pictures of humans or animals, only wildlife...

But apparently, as always, there are questions about how strict some aspects of the second commandment run. If you want to do it the truly Orthodox Jewish way, you should find an Orthodox Rabbi you trust and ask him this question. If he knows you, and knows his halacha, he can advise you on the proper way to enjoy art without violating halacha.

PS: Personally I believe Michelangelo was violating the halacha... He drew an image of G-d, made statues of naked Jewish kings {David}.... I don't know what was wrong with Michelangelo...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2010, 12:53:00 AM »
I have a tiny little buddha statue someone gave me.  Its like a inch tall.  I know Buddha is not worshiped, or considered a god, but surely he is a "molten" creation.  I have a wonderful friend who is a Buddhist, may I give her this item freely?  I might as well get rid of this tile I have that looks like the sun with a face on it... someone gave it to me because I work in tile sometimes. - I never really liked it, so it also may be happy in my friend's home.  I kinda feel good because she is my old room mate, and I think that my Judaism influenced her to go to Church w/ her Mom, and to delve into Buddhism on her own spiritual path.

Houseplants are kosher, yes?  Best replacement for iconographic contraband!
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

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Offline muman613

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2010, 09:58:09 AM »
I have a tiny little buddha statue someone gave me.  Its like a inch tall.  I know Buddha is not worshiped, or considered a G-d, but surely he is a "molten" creation.  I have a wonderful friend who is a Buddhist, may I give her this item freely?  I might as well get rid of this tile I have that looks like the sun with a face on it... someone gave it to me because I work in tile sometimes. - I never really liked it, so it also may be happy in my friend's home.  I kinda feel good because she is my old room mate, and I think that my Judaism influenced her to go to Church w/ her Mom, and to delve into Buddhism on her own spiritual path.

Houseplants are kosher, yes?  Best replacement for iconographic contraband!

Yes houseplants are Kosher but if you want to be completely shomer Shabbat you should understand the rules about watering plants on Shabbat.

Here are the 39 prohibited forms of labor on Shabbat:
http://www.ou.org/chagim/shabbat/thirtynine.htm

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14. Plowing (Note 31)

This includes any work that improves the ground.

Digging up a garden and fertilizing it fall under this heading. Also included is raking a lawn.

15. Planting (Note 32)

This includes all forms of planting and gardening.

Also included is anything that encourages plants to grow. Thus, one may not water plants on the Sabbath.

It is likewise forbidden to place cut flowers in water, or even to change their water.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2010, 02:30:23 PM »
Is the statue of David forbidden then? Am I violating halacha by sketching people or drawing life like pictures of people?

These are good questions, and while Muman's references from sites summarizing the general issues are useful, there is nothing like a direct teacher-to-student mesorah to ask a specific halachic shailah to a qualified Rav with a breadth of knowledge in Talmud, for his psak halacha on your specific question, so bli neder I will bring up this issue and ask the questions to my rabbi tomorrow, as you have written them.    He is a very understanding person with vast knowledge whom I trust, and I must say these are few and far between.

Offline muman613

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2010, 02:32:31 PM »
Is the statue of David forbidden then? Am I violating halacha by sketching people or drawing life like pictures of people?

These are good questions, and while Muman's references from sites summarizing the general issues are useful, there is nothing like a direct teacher-to-student mesorah to ask a specific halachic shailah to a qualified Rav for his psak halacha on your specific question, so bli neder I will bring up this issue and ask the question to my rabbi tomorrow, as you wrote it.

Of course... I should caution more often that what I provide is simply what Rabbis have said and written and do not constitute a halachic decision... Only a real Rabbi is able to decide these issues.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2010, 01:07:25 PM »
Please forgive me for I will need another day to post a reply.   Thank you.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2010, 06:28:48 AM »
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I've been reading rabbi interpretation of halacha and from my understanding, it's forbidden to draw an image of a man or anything that would represent Hashem or the stars, moon, sun. This article goes as far as to claim that one should deface a statue, trophy, or a doll with human features.

Is this true? I am looking to get into art myself and do some sketches myself and would not want to engage in forbidden activity. I have seen some Jewish art that focuses on drawing people and while finding such artwork is rare (when I think of Jewish art, I don't think of focusing on a person as the picture), what I have seen is very well done and I am curious if this is a violation of halacha?   


I showed this to my rabbi and he explained to me his ruling on this matter.  You can draw a picture of a person since it's 2 dimensional.   The only things you can't draw are a picture of the sun, stars, and moon, where some opinions hold that even with these it is forbidden to depict in 2 dimension.  But pictures/drawings of humans and other objects/things in 2 dimension are definitely permitted.

A statue of a human being, a full statue, which you own - That is a case where you have to deface it - meaning knock off a piece, or make it incomplete in some way.   The real issur (prohibition) regarding the statue is to MAKE such a statue.   To own it and have on your possession is an issue of maris ayin (suspicion) - ie halachically speaking, people might suspect that you made it since you own it.  So to avoid such a suspicion, one would have to break a piece off to make sure it's not a complete statue - this will reflect the fact that you did not make it.   So in the first place, you shouldn't buy such a statue, but if you already own one, then you should do some small action to it which takes away the suspicion that you made it - makes it incomplete.

But as far as painting and artwork, you can paint and do art and depict anything except for the sun, moon, and stars.   

(Under very specific circumstances my rabbi did say that there could be room to be lenient - bsha'at hadechak (in a very difficult situation) - even about the sun, moon, and stars, but that is not your situation, White Israelite.   And since you are just getting into art now, (a "lechathila" 'before-the-fact' situation) you should avoid depicting the sun, moon, and stars in your artwork).


Is the statue of David forbidden then? Am I violating halacha by sketching people or drawing life like pictures of people?

If it's a full statue and you made it, it's forbidden - a very strong issur (from the 10 commandments).  To have it in your house is forbidden on a different level - due to maris ayin - and in that case if you already have one, you should do something to it to make it incomplete/defaced (as discussed above).

There is no violation to sketch people or drawing life like pictures of people in 2D.

My rabbi said, even a doll does not violate the (3D) statue prohibition because it does not duplicate what a person looks like.    If it's not an exact replica of a person with human features, there is leniency there. 

And on what 3D human statues are prohibited to make, the issur (prohibition) is in an entire thing according to some opinions, so accordingly an incomplete statue can be made by those of the opinion that the real prohibition "m'ikkar hadin" (in the essence of the law) is to make the full thing.   But some hold that making an incomplete human statue would also be forbidden.

With regards to a picture, it is for sure mutar (permitted), with the exception of sun moon and stars.  The issur (prohibition) otherwise involves 3-dimensional things.   
 
So in sum, do not make statues of people, avoid having complete statues of people in your possession, and don't draw the sun, moon, and stars, and you're clear sailing.   

Hatzlacha (have success) with the artwork.

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2010, 04:37:45 AM »
Religion should be logical. If something is forbidden, there should be a reason for it.

So why would the depiction of living things be forbidden?

Humans will start to see a statue of a person, or a teddy bear for instance, as living objects and might even talk to it or consider it alive; when it is not.
This is quite insane when you think about it, and

also unhealthy, because you give attention, which in itself is life or even give love, to a useless piece of material.
You only should give attention and love to actual living things, otherwise it is a waste or even idolatry.

Awareness is a precious thing. Don't waste it.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2010, 06:51:38 AM »
Religion should be logical. If something is forbidden, there should be a reason for it.



What are you talking about?  Of course there are reasons that forbidden things are forbidden, and of course the oral law operates logically (and on mesorah - tradition).   White Israelite asked to know what is forbidden and what is permitted.   So I summarized that for him.   He was not asking why.   But certainly there is scriptural basis, you should have no doubt about that, and God has His reasons for the mitzvot which we can not ever know for sure but can contemplate and speculate and find meaning in them.

Quote
"So why would the depiction of living things be forbidden?

Humans will start to see a statue of a person, or a teddy bear for instance, as living objects and might even talk to it or consider it alive; when it is not.
This is quite insane when you think about it, and"

Did you read my post at all?   "Depiction of living things" is NOT forbidden.   Not in 2D, and in 3D only a HUMAN depiction is forbidden.    If you call Sun, moon, and stars "living things" then these are the only things forbidden in 2D drawings.

A Teddy Bear is not forbidden.   Making one or owning one.   It's not human.

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 06:57:58 AM »
Religion should be logical. If something is forbidden, there should be a reason for it.



What are you talking about?  Of course there are reasons that forbidden things are forbidden, and of course the oral law operates logically (and on mesorah - tradition).   White Israelite asked to know what is forbidden and what is permitted.   So I summarized that for him.   He was not asking why.   But certainly there is scriptural basis, you should have no doubt about that, and G-d has His reasons for the mitzvot which we can not ever know for sure but can contemplate and speculate and find meaning in them.

Quote
"So why would the depiction of living things be forbidden?

Humans will start to see a statue of a person, or a teddy bear for instance, as living objects and might even talk to it or consider it alive; when it is not.
This is quite insane when you think about it, and"

Did you read my post at all?   "Depiction of living things" is NOT forbidden.   Not in 2D, and in 3D only a HUMAN depiction is forbidden.    If you call Sun, moon, and stars "living things" then these are the only things forbidden in 2D drawings.

A Teddy Bear is not forbidden.   Making one or owning one.   It's not human.

Yes I read your post. I just choose to nót see you as all knowing.
I just give a logical explanation and that seems to bother you.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 07:26:17 AM »
Religion should be logical. If something is forbidden, there should be a reason for it.



What are you talking about?  Of course there are reasons that forbidden things are forbidden, and of course the oral law operates logically (and on mesorah - tradition).   White Israelite asked to know what is forbidden and what is permitted.   So I summarized that for him.   He was not asking why.   But certainly there is scriptural basis, you should have no doubt about that, and G-d has His reasons for the mitzvot which we can not ever know for sure but can contemplate and speculate and find meaning in them.

Quote
"So why would the depiction of living things be forbidden?

Humans will start to see a statue of a person, or a teddy bear for instance, as living objects and might even talk to it or consider it alive; when it is not.
This is quite insane when you think about it, and"

Did you read my post at all?   "Depiction of living things" is NOT forbidden.   Not in 2D, and in 3D only a HUMAN depiction is forbidden.    If you call Sun, moon, and stars "living things" then these are the only things forbidden in 2D drawings.

A Teddy Bear is not forbidden.   Making one or owning one.   It's not human.

Yes I read your post. I just choose to nót see you as all knowing.
I just give a logical explanation and that seems to bother you.

I am astounded at how pathetically insecure you sound.   I am not "all knowing."   The JEWISH LAW, operates on 'halacha' which is only arrived at through Talmudic study - a vast corpus of Oral tradition which expounds upon the Torah and is the only binding explanation of law with a tradition of interpretation stemming all the way back to Moshe and the first Jews that were.  I did not even say that it was my own ideas I was giving over.  My rabbi, who has studied the Talmud in depth and all the of the sources, has arrived at the halacha on this issue and gave a psak din (a ruling) for White Israelite who asked a halachic question.    Jewish law does not operate on "making stuff up" - which is what you did here.   You make a mockery of Judaism with your ignorant comments, and that has no place here.   

Your invented speculation not only says nothing about what the Jewish law is or is not, and has no relevance since you do not claim to put any textual backing behind it or to have any source in Jewish sources, but it also was Wrong... Incorrect... According to Jewish law.      You may not understand how Judaism operates, and I don't expect you to, but White Israelite's question was for a trained, qualified rabbi who knows the sources in Jewish law - not some ignorant speculating know-nothing to make something up.   White Israelite also could have made up anything he wanted too.   But that was not his intention.  His intention was to find out about Jewish law.

BTW are you even Jewish?   If not, you have absolutely no business "teaching" what you think is 'bible' to Jews.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 07:33:51 AM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

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Re: Judaism: Forbidden art?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 09:15:20 AM »
Religion should be logical. If something is forbidden, there should be a reason for it.



What are you talking about?  Of course there are reasons that forbidden things are forbidden, and of course the oral law operates logically (and on mesorah - tradition).   White Israelite asked to know what is forbidden and what is permitted.   So I summarized that for him.   He was not asking why.   But certainly there is scriptural basis, you should have no doubt about that, and G-d has His reasons for the mitzvot which we can not ever know for sure but can contemplate and speculate and find meaning in them.

Quote
"So why would the depiction of living things be forbidden?

Humans will start to see a statue of a person, or a teddy bear for instance, as living objects and might even talk to it or consider it alive; when it is not.
This is quite insane when you think about it, and"

Did you read my post at all?   "Depiction of living things" is NOT forbidden.   Not in 2D, and in 3D only a HUMAN depiction is forbidden.    If you call Sun, moon, and stars "living things" then these are the only things forbidden in 2D drawings.

A Teddy Bear is not forbidden.   Making one or owning one.   It's not human.

Yes I read your post. I just choose to nót see you as all knowing.
I just give a logical explanation and that seems to bother you.

I am astounded at how pathetically insecure you sound.   I am not "all knowing."   The JEWISH LAW, operates on 'halacha' which is only arrived at through Talmudic study - a vast corpus of Oral tradition which expounds upon the Torah and is the only binding explanation of law with a tradition of interpretation stemming all the way back to Moshe and the first Jews that were.  I did not even say that it was my own ideas I was giving over.  My rabbi, who has studied the Talmud in depth and all the of the sources, has arrived at the halacha on this issue and gave a psak din (a ruling) for White Israelite who asked a halachic question.    Jewish law does not operate on "making stuff up" - which is what you did here.   You make a mockery of Judaism with your ignorant comments, and that has no place here.   

Your invented speculation not only says nothing about what the Jewish law is or is not, and has no relevance since you do not claim to put any textual backing behind it or to have any source in Jewish sources, but it also was Wrong... Incorrect... According to Jewish law.      You may not understand how Judaism operates, and I don't expect you to, but White Israelite's question was for a trained, qualified rabbi who knows the sources in Jewish law - not some ignorant speculating know-nothing to make something up.   White Israelite also could have made up anything he wanted too.   But that was not his intention.  His intention was to find out about Jewish law.

BTW are you even Jewish?   If not, you have absolutely no business "teaching" what you think is 'bible' to Jews.

Insecure? I wonder how you are going to reason that one.

I did not say you were 'all knowing', you speak like you previous post was a finite answer.

Jewish law? From what I understand different rabbi's will give different interpretation's so questioning yóúr rabbi's answer is only logical.

I am not making stuff up; I reason my theory and if you want to deny the theory I gave based on your own reasoning, then do so.

I don't mock Judaism and if you call somebody's comments ignorant you should at least back it up with reasoning and a bunch of 'how's' and 'why's'.

This is a place for righteous people. Apparently, the way you theorize as displayed by your own words, is that you will deny Truth, if it is nót directly backed by Jewish scriptures. That makes you a dogmatic sheep that can't think for himself.

I am 'teaching' here? I am not teaching anything. I give my explanation and that bothers you. Perhaps you need some counseling.