Israel's Chief Scientist dismissed for doubting evolution & global warming

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Your number 3 sounds more like kefirah to me! 

The sure mark of an ignoramus is the eagerness to label beliefs they don't understand as kefira.

Do you lay Tefillin every day? 

Isn't that what I'm required to do by Jewish law?   So what does it have to do with how I interpret Bereshith?   The halacha is non-negotiable.

What meaning does 5771 and its preceding Six Days have for you?

5771 is the dating of mankind.   No source in the history of Judaism ever said otherwise.  Nothing in chazal or rishonim.    You mistakenly attach the 5771 to the dating of the universe rather than man, similar to the mistake of some modern day anti-science reactionaries whom you like to quote and similar to those who were involved in orchestrating various book-bannings. 

The Rambam did not take the 6 days of creation literally.   Do you claim his beliefs were kefira? 

It seems you don't understand very much about haskafah in general or the fact that there are multiple hashkafas on many issues which are equally acceptable to Jewish belief.    Start here:
www.hashkafacircle.com
Learn some.

I also suggest perusing a volume called "Daas Torah" by Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn, either by purchasing it or browsing it at your local bookstore.  You will quickly see that among the rishonim he cites on various hashkafic issues, there are multiple acceptable views that are different from each other.    

[wonga66]

5771 is the dating of mankind. 

So you agree that Adam existed only 5771 years ago. That's good!

there are multiple hashkafas on many issues which are equally acceptable to Jewish belief

So you accept the hashkafa of those rabbis who hold by a 5771 year old geocentric universe as being 'equally acceptable'. Also, very good!

 

the Torah is not a science textbook

Correct. But on those subject on which the Torah touches science, the Torah
is authoritative.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "So you agree that Adam existed only 5771 years ago. That's good! "

Adam Sandler

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

there are multiple hashkafas on many issues which are equally acceptable to Jewish belief

So you accept the hashkafa of those rabbis who hold by a 5771 year old geocentric universe as being 'equally acceptable'. Also, very good!   

No, not equally acceptable to me because their view is incorrect and proven incorrect by scientific fact.   So yes, indeed, they are wrong in their view (and shortsighted IMO), but that doesn't make them heretics!   That has a real halachic definition.   It does not mean "anyone I don't like."

So it is "acceptable" in the sense that no one is a min or a heretic for believing it or asserting it, even if they are incorrect in my personal opinion.   It can still be considered kosher Jewish belief even if I think it's certainly the wrong hashkafa for one to adopt.

Similarly, I think that adopting a view which views working and jobs as forbidden/only for dropouts/without value is completely mistaken and foolhardy.   Yet many haredim in Israel adopt this view, and its embedded in the education system.   These people are not heretics for adopting that view which I think is wrong and harmful to the soul of the Jewish people, personally.     (Then again, it's not the perfect parallel because these people have other problems - there are halachoth against taking a living from learning Torah and clear advices from chazal that being without work will lead to sin.  But I'm just speaking in general in terms of an outlook that work is second-class or not befitting a 'talmid chacham.')

 

the Torah is not a science textbook

Correct. But on those subject on which the Torah touches science,

And according to the view I subscribe to, Bereshith account is NOT one of those subjects that Torah touches on science.   So there is no problem even according to your formulation.

However, you should know that that view of yours is simply false.   I've mentioned already in this thread, but the gemara speaks about gentile scholars and Jewish scholars and sides with the gentile scholars' opinion about the sun's path around the earth.    Where do you think the Jewish scholars got their view from if not from Torah?    Likewise, Baalei Tosafoth assert that we do not go by the medical advice of the gemara which is not applicable in our day.        Whatever "science" we get from Torah (if any) is not just any old thing wonga can glean from the written text...  It's the science that chazal themselves read into the text or extracted from the text .    And in that sense, we are not bound to accept that science of chazal in all cases as per the gemara I refer to (forget where it is but can look it up and cite if you request).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Re:  "So you agree that Adam existed only 5771 years ago. That's good! "

Adam Sandler

This was actually quite witty if you meant it to be.   Indeed, I agree to the above premise and it comes down to how we define "Adam."    Which I think in light of known facts and various sources, is also a bit up for debate.

[wonga66]

Actually the Germara in Pesachim 94 is not talking about the path of the sun round the earth or vice versa, but something else entirely. And if you look at the meforshim, it's not at all clear that the Jewish Sages actually acquiesced to the Greeks.

Since the Tenach, Rambam, Maharal & half a hundred other sages held by geocentricity, and the geocentric model is fully acceptable to modern science, & is even used as the truest one possible by NASA in their satellite launches, to ridicule it is disingenuous.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Actually the Germara in Pesachim 94 is not talking about the path of the sun round the earth or vice versa, but something else entirely. And if you look at the meforshim, it's not at all clear that the Jewish Sages actually acquiesced to the Greeks.   

It's pretty clear that it's a solid conclusion that can be drawn from that gemara, but you just don't want to believe it.

Since the Tenach, Rambam, Maharal & half a hundred other sages held by geocentricity,

Some of them lived before more advanced scientific facts were known.

Some of them lived after but did not have an expertise in the new science that had developed since the time of earlier sages.

Some were motivated by theological conviction to deny the science, even though the conviction was not shared by all rabbis.

And let's not forget:
Some rabbis ACCEPTED the heliocentric model.   Clearly it's not a forbidden view, and in light of the fact that it's scientifically proven, that would be the model one should accept unless he wants to play ostrich and put his head in the sand or simply look like a fool to all his friends and family.

and the geocentric model is fully acceptable to modern science,

No, it isn't.  Stop lying.

& is even used as the truest one possible by NASA in their satellite launches,

Moronic claim.

to ridicule it is disingenuous.

No need to ridicule it.  Scientific fact discredits it.

[Rubystars]

That is the strength and weakness of the Theory of Relativity: it is the great "democratizer" of science - the "great leveller of all scientific playing fields"! Everything is Relative! All opinions are equally valid! There are no Absolutes!

Of course, should Relativity ever be shown to be incorrect, which quite a few scientists believe is so, then it's back to Abolutism: in which case the zero-velocity results of all the Michelson-Morley-type experiments that failed to detect any velocity for the Earth are real, not apparent, and the Torah's geocentric paradigm of a stationary Earth is actually favoured, as is its recent Creation!

There are proofs in mathematics, but not in the rest of science. Science approaches the truth, but never deals in absolute truths. There is always a door left open for falsification/new evidence to emerge. It's like a curve approaching zero, but never actually reaching it.

[wonga66]

Not only is the non-rotating Earth model used by NASA for its satellite launches, the Geocentric model is also used as the truest possible one for artillery, satellites, navigation, weather forecasting, oceanography, gyroscopy, calendars, eclipses, etc. www.geocentricity.com

"We cannot feel our motion through space. Nor had any experiment evr proved that the Earth is in motion" (Professor Lincoln Barnett, Einstein's disciple).

http://www.geocentrism.com/possible.htm
The famous zero-velocity result of the Michelson-Morley experiment (to this day not a smidgen of the Earth's purported 67,000 mph velocity about the sun has ever been detected or measured!), the positive result of the Michelson-Gale experiment, Airy's Failure, the Sagnac Effect, the Barr Effect, Star Streaming, Varshni's Result, Aspden's Super-Dense Plenum theory, the uniformity of the Cosmic Background Radiation, Gamma-Ray Bursters concentric about the earth, quasars shining directly at the Earth, the Faraday Disc Generator Paradox, the uniqueness of the Earth/sun - Earth/moon eclipse relationship etc. all bespeak of the Earth's centrality in the cosmos. 

"The Earth is located at the center of the universe" (Rambam Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 3).

[Rubystars]

Wonga have you ever heard of a scientist named Copernicus? You seem not to have come up to date with his discoveries. Of course considering that he was part of what has been slandered on this board by some as an evil ethnicity, I guess some will dismiss his findings on that basis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_Copernicus

Of course he got it partly wrong, he said the sun was the center of the universe. He came a lot closer to the truth than geocentrism however. He didn't know about the galactic center, or our local group of galaxies, etc.

[wonga66]

By very definition of Relativity and Mach's Principle, the geocentric model is totally scientifically acceptable, as even an atheist like Bertrand Russell admitted "Whether the earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors held, the observable phenomena will be exactly the same: a metaphysical assumption has to be made".

I suggest you check out the scientific case for geocentrism at
eg
www.geocentricity.com
http://www.geocentrism.com/poss
http://www.geocentricity.com/geocentricity/mbvideo/index.html
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=98990E54C5FCA11Aible.htm

And aprt from the scientific case, there is also the Torah case. Nowhere in the Tenach is any diurnal or annual motion attributed to the Earth. The Tenach refers only to the Earth's staticity. Joshua commanded the Sun & Moon to stop moving, not the Earth its rotation! Hashem writes what He means, and means what He writes!

[Rubystars]

Ok explain this. Why do we see OTHER planets rotating (rather than being fixed and motionless save their orbit around the earth like you would claim), and furthermore, from a perspective outside of earth, why do we see the earth rotating?

[wonga66]

It is not possible to tell by the eyes alone what is rotating around what. For that you need to have a location that you know with certainty to be ABSOLUTELY stationary.

 If you go to the Moon, it will seem as though the Earth & the entire universe are going round you.

If you go to Pluto, the universe will seem Plutocentric.

The only way to say what is truly going round what is to go outside of the universe (something that we cannot do whilst alive) and report back in.

As Torah-believing Jews, we believe that we have already had that report. And that report says that the Earth ain't movin'!

This is supported by all the experimental evidence eg Michelson-Morley, Jaseja, Klinkerfuess, Sagnac, Hoek etc etc

[Rubystars]

It is not possible to tell by the eyes alone what is rotating around what.

 If you go to the Moon, it will seem as though the Earth & the entire universe are going round you.

Why would you say that? There are certain parts of the moon where the earth would never rise much off the horizon. Plus, you could still see the earth rotating from this outside perspective. Also why do people on space stations see the rotation of the earth?

If you go to Pluto, the universe will seem Plutocentric.

Charon would be orbiting, but I doubt observations would show the entire universe would be pluto-centric. Of course stars would appear to "rise" and "set" due to Pluto's own rotation.

The only way to say what is truly going round what is to go outside of the universe (something that we cannot do whilst alive) and report back in.

Not really. If you get a cheap telescope and a fairly dark sky, you can observe the larger moons of Saturn orbiting Saturn if you keep watching and see them move night after night. Why don't they orbit the earth? Hmmmm?

As Torah-believing Jews, we believe that w have already had that report. And that report says that the Earth ain't movin'! This is supported by all the experimental evidence eg Michelson-Morley, Jaseja, Klinkerfuess, Sagnac, Hoek etc etc

I'm not Jewish but I do really think that anyone who holds to geocentrism these days isn't thinking very clearly.

[wonga66]

According to Mach's Principle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach%27s_principle
it is the inertial field around the Earth that is rotating around a stationary Earth every 24 hours. Once eg a geostationary satellite or a Shuttle enters that field, it is subject to its rotation, and the Earth is stationary underneath it eg a train moving away from a station: a watertight case can be that it is the train that is stationary and that it's the station that is moving away: not theory, not conjecture, not mathematical constructs, but hard physics!

[wonga66]

I'm not Jewish but I do really think that anyone who holds to geocentrism these days isn't thinking very clearly.

Well first read this by a non-Jew and let me know what you think http://www.geocentrism.com/possible.htm

[MassuhDGoodName]

wonga66 is RIGHT!  Rubystars!

I just read that article and it convinced me that we've been lied to for many years.

To prove the article's point, I went outside and threw a penny straight up into the air.

I knew that the penny would fall straight down on its return trip, so if the Earth actually turned on its axis, the penny would land a foot or more away from me.

The penny came straight down and hit my shoes, proving that the Earth has no motion, and conclusively proving that Torah is true and that science is a lie invented by Marxists and Democrats as an excuse to give amnesty to Mexican illegal aliens!

[Rubystars]

The relative (wonga's favorite word) motion of the earth to the penny is slow enough to where the movement of the earth beneath the penny wouldn't be perceptible with such a short flight.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Just because you might think it's crazy doesn't mean that YOU TOO shouldn't be put to death for daring to question the Will of Ha'Shem!

[Rubystars]

I'm not Jewish but I do really think that anyone who holds to geocentrism these days isn't thinking very clearly.

Well first read this by a non-Jew and let me know what you think http://www.geocentrism.com/possible.htm

I think it's an excellent example of creationist quote mining. From the perspective of the earth, the sun does appear to move, but if you have a perspective outside of the earth, you can see the earth rotating. You don't have to step outside the entire universe to see whether or not the earth moves. Also if the planets didn't move around the sun, then why are scientists able to use gravitational slingshots to put space probes further out, by calculating orbits?

Just because you might think it's crazy doesn't mean that YOU TOO shouldn't be put to death for daring to question the Will of Ha'Shem!

I know how dare I question anything, logic and reason are strictly forbidden.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Evolutionists  the 20th century was over long ago!

[MassuhDGoodName]

On today's Debka Report there's an ad featuring a likeness of "Dr. Ruth" Westheimer with a quote from her which reads:

"The Talmud states that it is the duty of every man to sexually satisfy his wife!"

Well, Dr. Ruth, I'm here to state for the record, that the only way Jewish wives can be sexually satisfied by their Jewish husbands is for their husbands never to have sex with them again!

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Well, Dr. Ruth, I'm here to state for the record, that the only way Jewish wives can be sexually satisfied by their Jewish husbands is for their husbands never to have sex with them again!

Are you trying to say we can't satisfy our women?

[wonga66]

The Rambam states that one of the reason for circumcision is to actually reduce the sexual pleasure that a Jewish man receives during intercourse.

The Jewish male is thereby made somewhat more refined and less bestial than a goy, especially eg Negroes, who have huge milos (foreskins).

When a Negroe has sexual intercourse, they get so much pleasure from the extra friction from their prepuce, (like a piston in a double-sleeved cylinder) which a Jew does not have, that many of them pass out from the ecstasy and become permanently boss-eyed! The name "Cham" (= 'Hot') was given by Noah to this son, the ancestor of the Blacks, indicating his hot, passionate, licentious tendencies!

[Yaakov Mendel]

The Rambam states that one of the reason for circumcision is to actually reduce the sexual pleasure that a Jewish man receives during intercourse.

The Jewish male is thereby made somewhat more refined and less bestial than a goy, especially eg Negroes, who have huge milos (foreskins).

When a Negroe has sexual intercourse, they get so much pleasure from the extra friction from their prepuce, (like a piston in a double-sleeved cylinder) which a Jew does not have, that many of them pass out from the ecstasy and become permanently boss-eyed! The name "Cham" (= 'Hot') was given by Noah to this son, the ancestor of the Blacks, indicating his hot, passionate, licentious tendencies!

You really sound sick every time you talk about women or about sexual relations.