Torah question, the death of Esau

[muman613]

I am only saying that Pinchas is a grand example of when Zealotry is required and rewarded. But there are also examples in Jewish history where zealotry has resulted in disasters. Only the sages are able to determine when this zealotry is righteous, or when this zealotry is foolish or dangerous.

http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5764/pinchas.html

Zealotry is Like Radiation - It Can Be Useful But It Is Very Dangerous

This week's parsha begins as a continuation of the incident at the end of last week's. Pinchas performed a bold and zealous act on behalf of the Almighty, killing a couple involved in public promiscuity between a Jewish Tribal leader and a Moabite Princess, a desecration of G-d's Name. Pinchas was rewarded for his act of Sanctifying the Name of G-d and was granted the Covenant of Eternal Priesthood.

Rashi points out that although Pinchas was a grandson of Aaron, prior to this incident he had not been a Kohain. The original appointment of the Priesthood involved Aaron and his then currently living sons, and any future descendants that would be born afterwards to those sons. Since Pinchas, son of Elazar, was already alive at the time of the initial appointment, he did not meet the original criteria for priesthood.

In addition to now being granted the priesthood, Pinchas was also blessed with the Covenant of Peace [Bamidbar 25:12]. There is a very important Netziv on this pasuk [verse]. The Netziv says that under normal circumstances, when a person kills another human being, that makes an indelible impression upon him. He is changed forever. The blessing granted to Pinchas as a reward for his exercise of violent zealotry to protect the honor of G-d, was that he did not incur any spiritual damage from this violent act. Since he acted for the sake of Heaven, his act did not have the normal effect it would otherwise have had.

The Netziv is saying that zealotry is very, very dangerous. It is like radiation. It can be used to heal and to treat cancers. But, if a person is exposed to radiation in the wrong way, it can kill him. Zealotry is like radiation. It has an effect on the person who uses it. Pinchas needed a special blessing to immunize himself, as it were, from the negative effects of the zealotry he had engaged in.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am only saying that Pinchas is a grand example of when Zealotry is required and rewarded. But there are also examples in Jewish history where zealotry has resulted in disasters. Only the sages are able to determine when this zealotry is righteous, or when this zealotry is foolish or dangerous.

But the sages wrote the Bereshith Rabba!   So how is that in dispute here?

[muman613]

I am only saying that Pinchas is a grand example of when Zealotry is required and rewarded. But there are also examples in Jewish history where zealotry has resulted in disasters. Only the sages are able to determine when this zealotry is righteous, or when this zealotry is foolish or dangerous.

But the sages wrote the Bereshith Rabba!   So how is that in dispute here?

I know that... But was there explicit mention of that act being according to the halacha? If so then I am not aware...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Anyway, you bring up an interesting point Muman, and I would say I don't agree.  

My rabbi has taught me that there is such a thing as an inherent sense of morality, and a person can at times trust that, and indeed those rabbinical sources who suggest that the Noahide laws should be known to/derived by any person even without ever seeing the Torah, would have to agree with this.     There are rishonim who say that the goyim should know or figure out the noahide laws.

And there are situations a person can find himself in that he knows instinctively are wrong and need redress.

[muman613]

Muman, why the defensiveness?

I made a guesstimation about Secularbeliever's intentions and that's it. There was no excoriation. You do have a lot of knowledge but I think many of us would like to see more of it in your own words, instead of simply in pastings from chabad.org. I'm of course not at all trying to say that Chabad is wrong in any manner (they are among my favorite Jews), but I'm sure that a strong Torah scholar like you can also mull the rabbinical opinions and formulate your own views too, even if they largely agree with theirs.

Thank you. I will try to explain more from my own experience and post less from the sources..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am only saying that Pinchas is a grand example of when Zealotry is required and rewarded. But there are also examples in Jewish history where zealotry has resulted in disasters. Only the sages are able to determine when this zealotry is righteous, or when this zealotry is foolish or dangerous.

But the sages wrote the Bereshith Rabba!   So how is that in dispute here?

I know that... But was there explicit mention of that act being according to the halacha? If so then I am not aware...

To my knowledge, it's not portrayed negatively.

Have you seen it portrayed negatively?   Can you point out where the Bereshith rabba criticizes Hushim?   If not, I don't understand the position you're adopting here.    Why is Hushim "guilty until proven innocent" in your eyes when the sages portrayed him positively (as far as I know) in this instance?

[muman613]

Anyway, you bring up an interesting point Muman, and I would say I don't agree.  

My rabbi has taught me that there is such a thing as an inherent sense of morality, and a person can at times trust that, and indeed those rabbinical sources who suggest that the Noahide laws should be known to/derived by any person even without ever seeing the Torah, would have to agree with this.     There are rishonim who say that the goyim should know or figure out the noahide laws.

I don't understand what point you say I am bringing up.

There is always the command to not stand idle as your brother bleeds, and that when one does nothing he thus accepts or condones the evil. This is one reason Schem was destroyed, and I understand this lesson.

But the case of Pinchas was a case of Halacha which Moses appeared to forget and Pinchas, who remembered the Halacha was the only one who could carry it out, and this is why what he did was so meritorious.

But regarding Essau and Hushim, all i know is this one story about how Essaus head was removed in this incident. No doubt Essau was a wicked man, and he was a rodef who wanted to kill Jacob, thus he may have deserved the death.

If you could point to a good source which explains this I will investigate it.

[muman613]

I am only saying that Pinchas is a grand example of when Zealotry is required and rewarded. But there are also examples in Jewish history where zealotry has resulted in disasters. Only the sages are able to determine when this zealotry is righteous, or when this zealotry is foolish or dangerous.

But the sages wrote the Bereshith Rabba!   So how is that in dispute here?

I know that... But was there explicit mention of that act being according to the halacha? If so then I am not aware...

To my knowledge, it's not portrayed negatively.

Have you seen it portrayed negatively?   Can you point out where the Bereshith rabba criticizes Hushim?   If not, I don't understand the position you're adopting here.    Why is Hushim "guilty until proven innocent" in your eyes when the sages portrayed him positively (as far as I know) in this instance?

I guess he must have been innocent of murder or else he would have been punished for it. My only question is whether there was any clear mention of Hushims merit for the act. As you pointed out Dans tribe was prosperous and it was a result of Hushim. Maybe this was his reward?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Anyway, you bring up an interesting point Muman, and I would say I don't agree.  

My rabbi has taught me that there is such a thing as an inherent sense of morality, and a person can at times trust that, and indeed those rabbinical sources who suggest that the Noahide laws should be known to/derived by any person even without ever seeing the Torah, would have to agree with this.     There are rishonim who say that the goyim should know or figure out the noahide laws.

I don't understand what point you say I am bringing up.  

Because you said only the sages decide whether something is right or wrong.   And it's not so simple.

Plus without even getting into the discussion I brought up, there is a place for interpretation and personal convictions about how to read these texts.